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More Than Movement: Expression Without Limits · The Eko Lens Podcast

• speaker-0: Welcome to the Echo Lens Podcast, where we view assistive technology through the eyes of lived experience. I'm your host, Kinesha, and every episode we explore how dignity, design, and innovation intersect to empower blind and low vision communities. We're not just reviewing tech, we're reframing it. So this is a space for truth telling, for honoring the voices that often go unheard, and for challenging the industry to do better. Whether you're a developer, a user, or someone who simply believes in equity, you're in the right place. This is the Echo Lens. Let's take a closer look. So welcome to this episode of the Echo Lens. This episode we have Brandy Mims. Brandy is an award-worthy deafblind dancer, choreographer, educator, and inclusive. arts leader whose work sits at the intersection of movement, accessibility, and social change. As the founder and artistic director of Listen With Your Eyes Dance Troupe, she uses dance as a powerful tool for storytelling, advocacy, and community connection. Brandy's speaking centers on accessibility in the arts, disability identity, resilience, leadership, and inclusive education. Drawing from her lived experience as a deafblind artist and educator, she challenges audiences to rethink how communication, creativity, and leadership can exist beyond sound and traditional systems. Brandy's originally from New Orleans and based in Little Rock, Arkansas. Brandi holds a BFA in dance and a MFA in choreography. She is recognized as the first deafblind black female dancer to earn a BFA in dance from the University of Arkansas at Little Rock. So her academic and artistic research focuses on inclusive choreography, deaf and deafblind access, and embodied storytelling. So as a K through 12 dance educator, a touring artist, and a public speaker, Brandi has presented for schools, universities, arts organizations, and community groups. Her talks are known for being authentic, engaging, and deeply human, often paired with movement demonstrations that allow audiences to feel the message rather than simply hear it. So welcome to the podcast, Brandi. speaker-1: Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me. speaker-0: So excited to have Brandy and Brandy's your dance name is unique the deaf dancer. That's your stage name? Okay, so ⁓ I found Brandy when I was doing some research on social media and I happened to find her in one of the ⁓ blind and low vision Facebook groups she posted about her dancing in a video or something. I was like what that is beautiful, please. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: Come on our podcast and tell us about how amazing you are. speaker-1: Thank you. speaker-0: So Brandi, ⁓ the first deafblind black female dancer to earn a BFA in dance from the University of Arkansas. Congratulations. speaker-1: Thank you. Thank you. That's amazing. It was hard. hard. It was But thank you. speaker-0: Yes. Are you able to tell us a little bit of your story? How are you connected to the blind and low vision community? speaker-1: ⁓ My connection with the blind is actually... It's crazy, but I have what you call Usher syndrome. Usher syndrome? Yes. I did not know that I even had that trait or that I even had that syndrome until I had my second son, who is now 14. But we found out 14 years ago that... ⁓ We took him to the doctor because he was not eating and we wanted to make sure he was okay as a baby. They did a blood test and then they came back and said, well, he has a missing link of a DNA, ⁓ osteosyndrome, meaning one of the parents is carrying this trait. have hearing loss. They have vision. They have vision loss and... balance and all this other stuff. But the two things that really grabbed me was the hearing loss. said, of course, obvious, I'm the only deaf person in my family. So of course it's me. But when they say the progressive vision loss, this is the part that really kind of like struck me the most because when you say progressive vision, it's going to be going, failing down. said, so knowing that I would one day lose my vision 100 % is... That's something I'm really looking forward to. But I have to accept it. And so that, right now, is I'm still, like even to this day, I'm still trying to accept that part of my life because I've been deaf my whole life. I've always had hearing aids. I've always been deaf. But the vision part, I've always wore glasses as a kid. My family never knew anything about that part because I'm adopted. So now I, ⁓ myself, and now that I realize when I'm, when I do have my moment, then more people look at you and they think when you tell someone you're blind, they're expecting the old obvious stereotype, a blind person that can't see exactly nothing, probably, I don't know, wearing sunglasses over their eyes. But I don't like that, you I need people to understand that we come in different, different, different ways, you know. Mine is more of a low vision problem and it really changes more at night time or if it's a dark room. Or if it's too bright and then my eyes are overexposed and then I go into a, even though the light is on, but I'm coming from somewhere where my eyes are overexposed, my eyes are like kind of stuck and I have to wait for them to like get back to normal, which is kind of frustrating. But. I speaker-0: Almost like when you get your eyes dilated probably, right? Where they... where it's really sensitive for a while. speaker-1: I, I... It's a weird thing. Like, I know if I'm like, say I'm driving home, right? And you know how... ⁓ my God. I think that's probably like the worst thing. I would drive, when I'm driving home, and you know how that sun set right there, smacking your face when you're driving and you're like, ⁓ my... Probably, that's probably one of my most anxiety parts, is for when the sun is like setting. Because it's so bright that when I go in, it's like... It feels like it's black. And then sooner or later, it starts coming back to normal. ⁓ Then I started realizing, I started meeting other deafblind individuals, because I don't know many. I started meeting other ones, and I started seeing them do some protest style, which is sign language with touch. And then I see them using the cane. And I have deaf friends in California. They know many, many deafblind. We're gonna get you connected with them. And now I am walking with a cane at night. I have to make sure I leave my house with one. I'm fine in a day, but there have been times where I've been somewhere and it's like completely dark outside and I'm stuck because I can't. I'm scared to walk. I'm scared to move. I'm scared to, you know, and people don't understand that part. Like this is where the blindness come in. speaker-0: Yes, and I relate with that too. I use my cane a lot at night more than during the day unless it's like a new area that I'm trying to navigate, then I'll bring it just in case. But yeah, I completely understand that part. So you said you found out when ⁓ your son's blood test came back. So does your child have usurpsinism as well? speaker-1: Both of my kids, I'm 100 % sure my oldest one too, but we definitely know that my youngest one. But both of them have the trait in their body. They have the DNA, but it skipped them. So it actually skipped them. But if they meet another woman and she had that same trait DNA, that means their children will have a syndrome. So. It's weird and it's so crazy and I tell people, I make a joke of it, but I just don't know myself. Mutant. And people go like, what? I said, we're mutant. We're just a mutation. People like, both. Back in the day, just some un-golly things that they weren't supposed to do within the family. And that kind of developed that. So it just carried. So now that trace is just. And you don't even know where it actually started, so I'm adopted, so. So I'm pretty sure someone in my family that my, either my father, I think my mom or my dad, one of them had to have it, but I have never met them yet, speaker-0: So it's really interesting too, you bring up the fact that you're adopted. ⁓ A lot of folks, you know, we've touched on this in a podcast in the past for a second, but a lot of folks don't realize that when you're adopted, you don't have access to your medical records or your familial history in most places that like, it can be really frustrating because you have these medical things going on, but you don't. really have any answers for them because of ⁓ not having access to knowing about your ⁓ biological family. speaker-1: Right, right. And it's actually, I can't tell you how tired and how I'm of him. I'm I have to go to the doctor and you give him the same old symptoms. Do you have any history of blood pressure or cancer? And you're filling out that form and the big form is just like, I do not know or I write unknown because I'm adopted. I have no clue. And I think it's kind of sad that we, I I felt like if we were, If you're to adopt someone or put your child up for adoption, this is me. I really wish and believe that you should at least write what are the medical history in your family? okay, you know, this family has blood, blood pressure problem, high blood pressure. They have vision problem, something, something to just give that child something to say, okay, I know what I need to be on the lookout for when I become, you know, So, you know, knowing that. you know, hey, that cancer in your family, I'm... I can't answer that question. I've got to find out for myself, you know? So that's not something I'm looking forward to. You I don't like that part, not knowing. You know? Yeah, so... speaker-0: So as far as communication, you sign language at all? speaker-1: My first communication is English, vocal, oral. My adopted parents, when they were alive, they just, I guess they wanted to make me as normal as possible. like when I'm talking to a lot of people and I really just feel like most parents I understand because I'm a parent myself. We want our children to be born as healthy as possible. with no issue just come out a healthy baby. But some parents, you know, unfortunately that child comes out with a disability, you know, and some parents accept it and some don't. I don't really believe that my family really accepted. So I think they tried to fix me, you know, once they found out that I was deaf at, that they adopt me at two. So I don't think they found out until I started going to school for pre-k. and you take the little hearing test, that's food. So I think that's how they found out. But after that, I think they were like trying to fix me. I even feel like, I can't remember everything, but I even feel like I had surgery one time. I can't remember. Because you're a child, you can't remember everything. these like flashes, I feel like I've had surgery before, but I can't remember. But speaking has always been my first language. I speak my, I've had many years, I speak there. I didn't start learning about sign language probably until middle school because I was the only deaf girl in elementary. And then I went to middle school. And when I went to my middle school, that's when I saw other kids like me. I noticed they were doing things with their hand and you're like, what is that? But what was bad about that was because we were in a mainstream school, I was... teachers were not allowing us to use sign language neither. They were forcing us to talk and not sign. ⁓ Yeah, so ⁓ that was also, if we had to communicate, we had to communicate. They forced us to use our voice and not sign. Then I went to high school. That was a mainstream school, no sign there. So I really just grew up speaking. Learning to sign was something I picked up. But now I've been in the deaf community for... speaker-0: interesting. speaker-1: Now that I was at a deaf school, it's been improving. But automatically, I think my brain knows when I'm around a hearing person or when I'm around a deaf person. Because if I'm with you, like you and I are talking, automatically my brain knows I can just talk. But if I know there's a deaf person in the room, I can automatically do both because I will have to voice and sign at the same time to make sure everybody understands. So. I wish my family would have accepted deafness and allow me to learn more about my deaf culture as a child. Because I feel like because they didn't accept it, it made me struggle in life about accepting it myself. You know what I mean? So. speaker-0: You know what, have another language that you speak through. And I would say, is that dance, Brandy? Dance, I feel like is like a huge language for you. Can you tell us about dance and your connection and where you are today with that? speaker-1: I don't even know how explain it, but I tell people dance is just my life. It's just life to me. ⁓ It really does still stay connected about how, what I've been through life. And remembering being that girl afraid to love when people picked on me growing up. And I did have that, that weird accent of trying to pronounce my letters and tears picking on me. And I never read out loud. And that's funny. I talked to my friend earlier about this. You know, not being able to talk out loud and people made fun of how I sound when I did talk and I just stayed within myself and never really was able to feel like I was able to express myself because I did, it was always being picked on. And I really feel like some people today still today make us feel that way. But when I was growing up as a kid, don't, when you don't have anyone telling you anything else different, you actually start believing that deaf is dumb and. You can't read and you can't do so many things. So that's what I kind of carried on in my life as a child, you know. But by the time I got to community college, I found cheerleading. I went to that lady and said, hey, I want to be a cheerleader, but I don't know how to cheer. I don't know how to jump and I don't know how to flip. See, that's fine. And that's, said, I was fine. But she said, just come to the audition. I mean, I went, I messed up. I was like, I didn't make it. But she told me, no, you made it. And when I found out I made it, I was like, oh my God, you never know unless you try, know? Until when I tried out for that, that's when I knew that anything, you have to just, it just felt like the door just opened up wider for me to like, and I never missed cheerleading practice. I was over there every game and I did it for three years. I was at every game, never missed. And everything got sick and lost my voice. I sealed on the sideline. moving my mouth like I was cheering. Because that's how much I enjoy being around. And then dance came later after my second son. I don't know, I wanted to go back to school and get a degree because I wanted stability because, you know, I need, I have two kids and I didn't want to be a mother that's struggling and I wanted to have something so my kids don't have to struggle. I found dance, I went in there with the same little, same little, hi, I'm Brandy. I'm deaf. And I never took a dance class in pass, you know, so it took me six years to, it's a four year program. It took me six years. speaker-0: It's so amazing though, because you know, most folks, especially folks who are getting their bachelors and their higher level education when it comes to dance, they've been dancing since they were two, three years old. You found dance as an adult and were able to... That's amazing. That's amazing. speaker-1: Being the oldest person in the class and, but it was a little, I'm not gonna say it was easy. I struggled. I even think that's when I found more connections about my vision because the further along in the school year when we started, when I finally was starting to be able to participate in the dance concert. Dance concert is in the big theater and the backstage is dark and you gotta get on and off the stage in the dark and so. I mean, this is me really trying to learn first, because like I just had my son and okay, I'm still not understanding what utter syndrome is. I just heard about it. But I realized for myself, I learned ⁓ how to adapt. I said, so what can I do? I don't want these people to think I can't do the job because I can't see. I don't know, and automatically for myself, I started counting. And you know, I feel like I just started counting the pattern. Like if I'm in the wing. And I said, okay, this is where I'm supposed to be on the stage. So, I'm in a wing, but what I do, I will walk and go, you know how you count in feet? just one, you put one foot in the other and you count in one, two, three, four, five, you know, count. Then I will count and remember that count. And then I would look around and see where I'm at. Okay, okay, there I am. This is how many counts to get here. Okay, let's go back. And then I would do it again and close my eyes. And do the same exact thing I did and do that same count that I just did. And then I would open my eyes and say, okay, this is it. I just need to remember this. Do this and I'm great. Now, that's one part I started trying to learn to be adapt with my business. But if there's a group of us and there's someone in the wing with me, I would have to go, hey, do you mind bringing me to my spot? Mm-hmm. know, when we have to set up. And sometimes it's kind of hard to ask people because I don't, you know, I don't know. It would be so hard. speaker-0: No, that's how it is, right? We don't want to ask, we want to be able to do it on ourselves and not have to worry about other folks like worrying about us. Yeah, I get it. I get it. speaker-1: Right, so you go, can you help me? And then they go, okay. And then they'll help me. And then, oh my goodness, at the end, we got this bow you gotta do at the end, right? So whatever the dance is, you hit that pose, you wait for the light to go off and then you gotta help me get in a straight line in the door. Okay, hey, I have to find who's closer to me at the end of the dance day. At the end, when the go out, can you grab me and just bring me into the line so I can be ready? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Can you make sure you carry my hand and leave me off the stage? It's a lot of responsibility for myself to be able, I get the assets that I need, but sometimes it can be a little bit sad because sometimes they forget. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: but... but that's speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, dance it to your light. speaker-1: Dance is completely my life because even though I struggled the first few years, because not only was I struggling with the techniques and trying to do because I'm late in it, but I was struggling with the deafness of my... Disaccepting my deafness because I was trying to be normal and trying to... I had my interpreters. I had my interpreters. I had my clothes. I had everything I need as far as my deaf asset. But there was something in my head that was holding me back to be able to... really come out and express myself as a dancer. Because I was always worrying about what people think and looking for validations and approval. And it just, it was really hard. And so by the time I went to California for the first time in 2017 to an international deaf dance festival, I met other deaf dancers from all over the world, like Hong Kong, Jamaica, Australia, Africa. It's just so many. And when, when I met them, of course I'm one, I've been using my voice to myself my whole life. So I'm like, I'm going around deaf people and I haven't signed in forever. So how am I gonna do this? You know, cause I've been in the hearing world for so long. Now I have to go into this deaf world and know how to communicate. But when I got there and saw all these amazing deaf dancers and realized we all share the same story, like we all have mainstream. And then just learned that, I mean, they were phenomenal. And then at that point, I think something in my heart said, you know what, it's okay to be deaf and it's okay to be a dancer. I can do both. I can be a deaf dancer. And after that moment, I went back home for my last year. Before I graduated, went in with my last year. I guess I did a 360 because Brandy was shining and I was just dancing like it was nothing. I knew it was my, it's like this feeling, you know it's it's a passion. It's a good little feeling that just light up in you and makes you feel like you can breathe so easily. my God, my teacher started noticing the change and I just, I never since then, I've just been going up with it because dance is the way I, and I realized that's how I'm able to express my emotions and feelings. I can, I mean, I don't tell nobody, of course it's probably cat, but my teeth could probably come out. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: But I actually do look forward to making people cry on my performance because that would let me know that you were connected. So when people come up and Brady, you got me crying. say, OK, well, thank you. I'm happy to hear that, you know? speaker-0: He said, that was my call. ⁓ speaker-1: But dance is life. Dance is life. Dance is definitely my voice. It is my voice. I mean, if you see me in Walmart, and if I can hear the music, but I can hear that little bass, and you see that woman over there, she's really like brushing big movement. You be like, I don't care. But I know somebody's watching. And so if they see it, that's going to make them feel good. know, also me just sharing that energy. ⁓ high energy and joy of dancing and movement. It just makes someone else feel the same way, even though they can't do it. I feel like, I can't dance, I got too lefty. I can teach you how to dance, but yeah, dance is life. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, so you have your dance and you're learning and you're adjusting to being able to move ⁓ across the stage like you want to to express yourself, both being deaf and blind. So not only can we have a different feeling when you're hearing the music, or feeling the music, I should say, and then... the sight stuff on top of it. So now you really have to trust your body in your instincts to know where you're supposed to be at on the stage or this is how I feel. Please let me not be by the edge and like something happened, right? Which I've, I've, I commend you. So is there a speaker-1: Kenny! speaker-0: adaptive or assistive technology that you can use for dance? What do you rely on when you're learning the steps and trying to get it down? speaker-1: from deaf perspective or blind perspective, from a deaf perspective. Music has never been my thing. I mean, know what I mean. Let me say it like this. Most hearing, and now when I do a presentation, which I have to do on Monday at a middle school, and sometimes I say, when you listen to music, what is the first thing you are listening for? What is the first thing you listen to? The music? Or the instrument? Or is it the lyrics? How do you know you're gonna love a song when you turn it on? You know, and so when I ask that question, most people... But I can hear words. can hear something going on in. I can hear voices. But I cannot understand what they're saying. OK. So I would just tell my son, I can hear the music, as long as I have my hearing aid in. I can hear the music. I can hear people singing. Ask me what they're saying. I can't tell you unless I look at the lyrics. I have to read the lyrics in order to understand what they're saying. But when it comes to me and music, is something I have a relationship with music that I guess not a lot of people is gifted with. And that's just weird to say, but I really truly believe I have a relationship with music where I prefer to dance to instrumental music because... Yeah, one, lyrics, great. But if you play a popular song with words, everybody in the audience is gonna be, know, it's not a jam to the song, but... speaker-0: is instrumental. speaker-1: their focus will not be 100 % on you because they're too busy jamming to the music of the song. For me, I play instrumental music and I want you to listen to the words that I'm saying with my body. speaker-0: Yeah, you're telling a story with your movement. speaker-1: And the man, I can give you a band that I love. It's called, there's two, it's not even a band. I guess a two man band if you wanna say, but it's Two Cellos. They're actually called the Two Cellos. They play cello. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard of them. ⁓ the smoke. ⁓ Yeah, did it on, ⁓ did a version, yep, yep, they did a version of that on Glee. speaker-1: If you listen to Michael Jackson's song, you know got all that and then you got Michael Jackson thinking about how you could be focusing on Michael because you listen to the words of Michael, right? Yes. But when I listen to 2Cello play this, it's so much emotion within the strings and how they... You can hear the emotion coming out of that music. Yeah. So in the way, the music is actually telling me how I'm going to feel. What emotion I'm bringing out of it. If it's a strong emotion, I know the moves strong. If it's soft, I know the moves soft. And nine out of 10, if I do a solo performance, it's never planned. speaker-0: Mmm. It's never planned. so, you're d- speaker-1: I was ready for you to react to that. ⁓ speaker-0: So it's. speaker-1: I was it's never playing when I do a solo. ⁓ speaker-0: So that's down. So what about, how do you handle the blind side? Do you use anything to help you as you're learning? ⁓ You did say a couple of things, like you count your steps and you're asking folks around you for help. Do you have to use any assistive devices? I mean, we're probably not going to dance on stage with our cane, but. speaker-1: It depends. It really depends. depends on the... Because for me, the most important thing for me is I need to see the stage. I need to be on the stage before the performance. I need to feel and see what's, you know, like, just know my space. I have to know that space first. You know, I have to... For, like, my experience in December, I did a performance with a group of ⁓ women. And the stage... was not that big. I'm sorry, it was not a big stage, but it's like, eight of us on this tiny little stage, okay? So, but the problem was the wall is black, the backstage is black, this is black, they got all this light. They think it helped, but it doesn't help. But I do know when it comes to my, cause the osteo syndrome is more of like a tunnel vision thing. We're losing it. Mine is really not sideways. It's iffy. It's iffy on the side, but mainly, it's mainly under here. It's under me. It is under me. if I, you know, I would trip over something and don't see it. So I realized mine is more like down here. Yeah. If I don't look down to see it, I'm going to, you know, fall over, you know. So the stage is black and they didn't have any kind of tape. The floor is black. The runway is, everything is black. So just imagine, I feel I'm okay. I need something to... speaker-0: Perception piece, okay. speaker-1: Let me know where the edge of this stage end, because if I don't see it and I tell people this and I say it very well for them to hear, if there is nothing on this edge of the tape, this stage for me to see, I will fall off this stage. Or I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna be able to perform my best because I'm gonna be having a panic attack. speaker-0: Yeah, you'll be worried about if I'm going to go to the ad. speaker-1: God, what about dying, exactly. But that's the other thing, when you're working with people who not used to a blind person or on a dance stage or a deaf person, it's becoming where you have to advocate for yourself. You have to say, these are the things I need. As far as tools, like I say, it really depends. Backstage, I do need my cane because... It's dark, they keep the lights off. So I have to keep my cane. Sometimes people are open and when you can tell when somebody's in genuine care, they go, oh, well, we're gonna put some lights, low lights down here and help you. I like when people, but sometimes you just, you can't never expect everything from people. You always gotta be prepared. So I have my cane with me and I, you know, I just tell them I need some kind of tape on the stage, edge of the stage. We have to go up and down in the dark. So, but get in all day. speaker-0: a specific type of reasonable accommodations. speaker-1: Yeah, so that's, but I never want people to think I can't do the job because of my deafness or vision. So sometimes it worries me because I don't want them to go, she requires too much. We can't work with her next time. You know what I mean? And I'm always afraid of that. but even though I having all these anxieties and while we were in tech rehearsal and I was, and I'm like, we're doing this thing on the floor and my foot is hanging off the stage and I'm freaking out. And I'm like, yeah, this not gonna work. It's not gonna work. And I'm not the type of person to be diva. I'm not a diva, but I will literally just go home and cry about it and try to like, want to quit, but then I'm not a quitter. But I don't know, for some reason, that performance, I did the best I ever did. And I was like, I show no worry because I had time to get to use of the stage. I had time to get used to. But as far as tools, I am on the verge of. trying to do more research. ⁓ What are those things that I can use? Because there is a young lady in California. She reached out to me, no, someone mentioned my name to her. She's also deaf-blind, also syndrome. But her vision is far worse than mine. Like she needs more extra help. She needs an interpreter, touch-up, interpreter be with her. And she just finished... graduate with a BA in dance. So her and I, I'm like, well, she got some ideas. We both hard of hearing, we both deaf. We both, okay, we got that part. But her vision is more, know, so we want to work together and figure out, so what did you use when you were in school? What are the things you used? And I would tell her the things I did. And find out some kind of ways we can, because I really want to just... be open of something, an opportunity in the dance community to, you know, like, I don't want this, my ears or my vision or anybody's vision or deafness to stop them from knowing that they can and cannot do something. But I think I've told you, but when I did my ⁓ grad school, and it's probably a good thing, I probably need do more research, but when I did my grad school, my thesis was to... speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: exploring ⁓ exploration of myself as a dancer. I did like a whole, just had to do a bunch of ideas. I had mock tape all on the stage. Like I mocked the tape up. I made different shape because if the lights are off, but if I feel that certain kind of shape, I know where I'm at on the stage. So I mocked the floor in some kind of way. So if I knew, if I mocked this big old thick... speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I knew I'm in the center. But if I'm... stage right, I kind of, I think I did like straight line, like three straight lines, zoom, zoom, zoom, tape. But on this side, I did like a triangle, so... speaker-0: Yes, so you would know the difference. speaker-1: I even know where I'm at because the whole performance was done with just, I mean, pitch black auditorium and only two lights. So, and the lights were not that, the lights were like very small directly on the stage. But I also learned that fighters, and I hate fighters, I'm not a fighter fan, but the interest of fighters and vibration and the web. They based their whole entire life off of vibration. I said, that sounds like deaf people. We vibration, we know boom, boom, somebody trying to get us attention. They banging on the floor vibration and make us look up. ⁓ So spiders based off their web of vibration. So I tell them, the first one is they know each vibration has something, means something. So one means food. if something land on it and it shake, they know it's food. They know if another woman vibrate, they know that it's danger, that it could be life-threatening. It could be something coming at them. They know that. And then they know if it's love-making, which is so crazy. So that story of a spider was, awesome. And I said, well, what if I do rope? I use rope. I have rope tied across. I don't know. I just tied the rope off. I tied different ways of tying the rope across the stage so it looked like a web. But I don't want to be a spider. Yeah. And then I just, the rope was more like a prop, but it was also a tool because it got me. speaker-0: Yeah, because you were in the complete dark like that. Yeah, you move Okay, so that is so interesting Thanks for sharing those different aspects because there probably are you know other folks that are listening to this and folks are gonna think you know I'm I'm low vision. I'm blind Maybe I have Usher syndrome where I'm deaf blind and I don't I can't do some of those activities like dancing or movement because you know, I How am I going to be able to do that? How am going to hear the music? How am going to see if it's dark? Like all those things. So you just showing us or telling us those examples of what you do to like put your body and feel that movement. So amazing. wrapping up a little bit here, like Brandi, what is like one message that you would love to leave with our audience today? about your journey or about what you hope for the future to make things a little bit easier for DeafBlind folks? Like, what are you thinking about? speaker-1: ⁓ what I tell anybody right now, there are three things that I like to say. One, you never know unless you try. You just say, what if another listener is listening to my story and says, well, what if I can't do this? And what if you never know unless you try? Try that's comfortable for you, not what works for me might not work for you, but everybody has a way. There is a way, okay? So everyone, it's never too late. Why I say that? Because... Some people want, you know, like for me growing up, my whole entire life thinking death is dumb and I believed it. But I learned along the way in that path that it's never too late to really chase whatever that dream is, whatever that passion is, because we all have something in us. We all have a story and we all have some special, wonderful, magical gift that God has given us, but we just need to know what that is and just be open. Third one is... Never take a no from someone who's not powered to tell you yes. Because you don't get a lot of nos in life, of course. But if you really believe in your journey and your dream and you're determined and you say, know I can do this. And I tell people, I will show you better than I can tell you. And that's when I tell people, OK. Because when you tell them, deaf dancer, oh, that's so cute, deaf dancer. But when I show them. It actually changes their whole perspective. Oh, you're a really good dancer. Oh, you really dance, dance. The expectation, breaking down the barriers. So just believe that you can do anything that's possible, but it does take hard work, determination, and it takes discipline, and it takes never giving up. And don't look at failure as a bad thing. Failure is meant for us to grow. So keep living, keep going, keep fighting. You have a story, I have a story. And let's come together and build a whole world and open up people's minds about how possibility is there for everybody. speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh. Yes, Brandi, your story is so, so amazing. And, you know, it's very interesting that we talked today too about not like the traditional assistive technology, right? Because you're using various other ways to be able to get through, ⁓ rather than, you know, like some of these other types of technologies we're using. I'm sure that it would be really cool if we could dance with a pair of AI glasses, right? Like it would probably help. like to record what you're doing and then you can go back and take a look or something like that. you know, thanks for being here and sharing your stories today. speaker-1: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you for listening. speaker-0: Absolutely. So thanks for joining us on the Echo Lens, where we view assistive tech through the eyes of lived experience. If today's conversation sparked something in you, you can share it, rate it, and keep the dialogue going. To learn more about the beautiful project or support our work, you can visit echovisionfoundation.org. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and keep seeing with love. Bye, everybody.