Latest / Beyond The Horizon / Mega Edition: The Captain Of Security Operations At MCC And His OIG Deposition (Part 4-7) (9/5/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: The Captain Of Security Operations At MCC And His OIG Deposition (Part 4-7) (9/5/26) · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: where we left off with the interview given by the
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: securities captain at MCC to the OIG inspectors. Question. Okay.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: It says he was placed back on suicide watch for
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: approximately one week. So that happened on the 23rd and
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: it brought him up about July 30th. Is that correct? Answer. Correct. Question. Okay.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Of 2019. Unlike his first and previous placement on Suicide Watch,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Epstein now has definitive suicidal tendencies reported in his incarceration history.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: The staff was tasked with determining whether Epstein was in
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: fact suicidal or using tactics of manipulation to avoid assignment
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: of a cellmate. After Suicide Watch, Epstein was placed on
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: psychological observation and eventually returned to the shoe. Now again,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: and just to go back, this 10 South thing that
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: didn't ever Were lieutenants bringing it to you? Like, hey,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: he should be on 10 South? Answer, no. Question, you
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: don't recall any lieutenants saying that? Answer, that wouldn't be
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a lieutenant's purview. A lieutenant, most of the people, and then,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I will tell you, I didn't understand Sam's placement until
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: I became a deputy captain. All right? And I understand that,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: you know, these guys, you just can't put a guy
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: in as a Sam. That identifier, that's an identifier that
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: has come from central office. BOP Central Office. Question, so
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: if a lieutenant, so if we're talking lieutenants, and they're
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: saying he should have been in 10 South, but then
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: they don't know what they're talking about, basically? Answer, no,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: because that identifier, because I believe you know this, it's
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: an identifier. That's put on an inmate, just like, I
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: will give you an example, sentencing designation, okay? That's their job.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: They're going to do, say, what security level inmates, what
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: type of prisons they go to, if they're a transgender,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: you know, All of these different things, all that stuff
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: is going to come from the central office. To say, okay,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: we looked at this particular inmate's history or PSI and
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: we feel that this identifier needs to be placed on
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: this inmate. So is Sam's identification or moniker put on
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: an inmate? Executive staff can't put that on there. That's
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: going to come from central office. Question, okay, so although
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: the lieutenants may have thought he gets cut off by
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: the guard, they may have, yeah, They may have thought
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: and said, yeah, due to, yeah, his situation of him
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: being a multi-billionaire or whatever, or due to his issues
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: of his proclivity to sexual deviance and all of these things,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: he wouldn't be a good candidate to go to GP.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: But guess what? That responsibility, that identifier, that moniker should
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: have been put on Epstein before he even came to
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: the MCC. Question, sure. Do you know if this is something? Obviously,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: it sounds like it would have been out of your hands.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: would that have been something that the warden would discuss
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: with what? The regional director? Answer, that's right. The warden
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: would have had that discussion between SIA, the regional staff,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: and also it goes to the region, the central office staff,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: over correctional programming. Question, okay, and you were never involved
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: with any of that? Answer, I would never be in
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: any of those conversations. Question, okay, fair enough. So, Who
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: would be the two I guess the warden would be
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: the right person to go back to and just say, hey,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: did this ever come up in conversation? Answer right. Question okay.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: It says at the direction of the warden, redacted initiated
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: the process of compiling possible cellmates for Epstein, vetting them,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: and submitting candidates to the warden for his review. Redacted
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: and his staff fully screened potential cellmates and reported their
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: determinations up to the warden. Efren Reyes was selected and
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: housed in a cell with Epstein. And it says the
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: assistant warden, but I'm assuming they mean associate warden, warden
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and regional director, were notified. Answer, okay, this is how
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: that went down. Mr. Redacted sat with me, not with
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: the AW president, and we wanted to. We started talking
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: about security protocols moving forward for Jeffrey Epstein. That's with
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: me and Mr. Redacted. We had that discussion. Question, okay. Answer,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: because like I said earlier in my statement, even though
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: the A & W would have been my next in
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: succession as far as my supervisor, however, I did have
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: conversations directly with the warden as far as for security
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: situations in the institution. So we sat there and he
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: wanted me to compile names and vet inmates that would
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: be possible good candidates as a cellmate for Epstein moving forward.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So I brought a compiled, I believe I had 10 names,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: And he and I went through those names. We brought
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: it down to three. Then those three names, Mr. Redacted,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: because I sat there when he called the regional director
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: on the phone and he and the regional director vetted
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: those three names. And then I sat there and I
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: was privy to that conversation. I sat there and he
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: gave them and he faxed them the whole makeup of
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: all three of them. And the regional director said, no,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: I want this guy. Answer. So the regional director ultimately
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: made the decision. Answer. Yes. Question, so, give me a
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: little bit of background on Reyes. What was he in for? Answer,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I believe Reyes was Hispanic, older male. I believe that
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: particular inmate was in, for I think, he was in
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: for child, some type of child sexual stuff, I can't remember. Question,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: some kind of charge with, charge dealing with, you know,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: those types of charges, sexual. Question, so a similar charge,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: as Epstein, I believe, I can't remember. Question, okay, was he?
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: When he was being vetted, was he close to like
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: a release date or anything like that? An anticipated release date? Question,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: no one knew that because this is what you need
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: to understand about MCC. MCC and MDC are basically jails.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: They're not prisons. It's a jail. So that means if
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: a guy goes to court, you know, you get locked
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: up and then the next day you might go to court.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: The judge might say, so I'm releasing you. We don't know.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: The only time we'll know is when the inmate comes
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: back from court. Where is this guy? He was released. Okay,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: now do we got this guy still in our account?
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: So if they don't bring a transfer order, our account
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: is bad. So they're going to bring the transfer order
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: back with them from the court line. These guys got released.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: So normally court line is over before four. So we
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: try to get these guys up. Do some inmates come
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: back after four? Yes, they do. But however, we don't
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: know if an inmate goes out to court if they're
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: coming back. However, there is times when they put out
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: a roster and it's given to as far as all
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: correctional officers that work the units and it will say
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: court line inmate Reyes using him as an example WAB.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: That means that he has to come downstairs with all
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: his belongings. So if they say that, that means he's
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: not coming back. That's either he's transferring to another BOP
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: facility or he's going to be released onto the street.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: But I can guarantee you that that transfer or that
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: transfer that inmate Reyes was on that day, it didn't
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: say WAB. Because it would have said WAB. The first
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: thing that the OIC should have said, that's my orange
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: tag guy. Because I made them do all the orange
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: tag guys, and I made them put them on the board.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Epstein is that orange tag guy. He's supposed to have
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: a celly, WAB. Oh, cap, shoe lieutenant wasn't here. But
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: he would have called me directly. God, hey, so. Don't
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: have a celly. Question. Yeah. So how long did it
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: take to vet? You know, I know you said that
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: it started with 10 and then you brought it down
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: to three and then the regional director ultimately decided the one.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: But how long does the process take? Answer. I believe
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: it took. I'm thinking we did it for we did
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: a day. It took a day. I mean, we actually
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: went and, you know, I don't know, either the warden
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and I. having a lengthy conversation, because the warden wanted
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: to ensure, warden redacted's philosophy when dealing with Mr. Epstein was,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: he's another inmate. And that he tried to get across
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: to the executive staff, and what he tried to get
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: across to us, as me, as the captain, to when
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: I disseminated down to the subordinate staff, this is just
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: another inmate, who cares about what his charges are. Or
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: since he's sensationalized in the media, nobody cares. We're going
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: to manage him appropriately. Because if you know anything about
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: jails and the BOP, especially Brooklyn and MCC, we don't
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: run those jails. The courts run the jails. So, and
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: that's the truth. The court, the judges, whatever the judge
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: says goes. So, and that's unfortunate, but that's neither here
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: nor there. So Mr. Redacted wanted the staff to say, no,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: this is the inmate. Yeah, he has certain charges, but
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: we're going to make sure he gets everything that all
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: the inmates get when they come to MCC. The inmates
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: are going to get proper care. The inmates are going
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: to get showers. The inmates are going to be fed,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: whatever it may be. But however, after those situations with Epstein,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: where it showed that his behavior was manipulating, when it
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: shows that he was trying to get things for unnecessary gain,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: or he would do anything to get anything that would
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: benefit him, we had to take some different protocols. We
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: had to take a different, they had to take a
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: different approach, a different mindset with this guy, or the
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: way it was managed. Because we already had this guy
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: saying that he was going to be killed and all
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: this stuff or whatever. So we just wanted to make
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: sure moving forward, we put protocols in place that will
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: protect us as an agency. Question, so speaking of protocols,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: was it discussed? Then when you were vetting these, hey,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: we have inmates constantly moving out of here if Reyes
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: is moved. One of these other two that were down
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: to the three. would be moved in with him was
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: that discussed answer no he would just basically because like
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: I said again at MCC you wouldn't know how long
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: the duration on the inmate stay you wouldn't know question
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: so you just have to start the vetting process over
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: again answer all over again whoever is available in the
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: unit They may be single-celled because, as you know, our
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: policy and protocols in the Bureau of Prisons are dealing
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: with restricted inmates and special housing units. They cannot be
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: celled alone. They must have a cellmate. Question in the
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: special housing unit, everyone must have a cellmate? Answer, yep. Question, oh,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. So every single one needs to
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: have a cellmate? Answer, except because it's one of the
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: areas that we didn't discuss outside of the 10 South.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: There was a range that was meant for, it was
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: like a step down from 10 South that only had
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: one man cell occupancy, which was G range. Question, okay,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: was that part of the special housing unit? Answer, yep. Question,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: so there's part of the special housing unit that is
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: the one man occupancy, another part that had two men? Answer,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: that is correct. Question, okay, an Epstein was housed in
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the two-man occupancy? Answer, yep. Question, was it ever discussed
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to put him in the one-man occupancy? Answer, no. Question, no. Answer,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: because all those cells were filled with inmates that were
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: vetted that needed that type of supervision. You had inmates
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: in there that if they was put with another inmate
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: inside of the special housing unit, they would die. They
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: would be assaulted. So we would have to make those considerations.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: So the protocols of how to deal with inmates according
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: to their situation, I believe it was sound. But guess what?
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: You can only, you're like a coach. I can make
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: the game plan. But if the players are not executing
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: the game plan, whose fault is that? Is it the
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: coach or the player? Question. And exactly. And that's what
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: we're doing here. We're Monday morning quarterbacking. We're just saying like,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: all right, this is. And that's what we're going back
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: through it. So the warden directed, redacted on multiple occasions
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: that Epstein needed a cellmate at all times, and redacted
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: verbally informed his lieutenants the same. Redacted repeatedly directed his
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: shoe lieutenant, lieutenant redacted that Epstein needed a cellmate at
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: all times. Additionally, redacted visited the shoe on multiple occasions
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and directed staff to be very alert and attentive about
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Epstein's special accommodation. So when you say that about the
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: shoe staff, Did you also inform the SHU staff that
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Epstein needed to have a cellmate? Answer, yes. Question O,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: they were all aware? Answer, yes. All right, folks, we're
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here. And in the next
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: where we left off. All the information that goes with
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone?
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're getting right back to it and picking
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: up where we left off. with the securities captain and
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: his interview with the OIG investigators. Question. Can you look
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: at the SHU staff for both of August 9th and
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: the very early morning hours of August 10th? Can you
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: just list the people and let me know if you
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: inform those people? Answer. So basically my hours were normally,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: let's just say 730 to four. So I ensured that
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: it wasn't within one week, but it was a process
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: of doing rounds. So I try to hit every shift.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: So I hit the day watch because that's the one
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: I work. Evening watch, I stay over late. I walk
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: up there. Hey, guys, this is the situation. Let's make
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: sure that, you know, we're paying attention. And then morning watch,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: of course. Question. So beginning at 8 a.m. Then on
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: August 9th, can you just look at who and the
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: names of the people? Can you just name who was
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: in the shoe? And if you ever had a conversation
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: with them, if they were aware. Question. Okay, let me
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: see here. Well, we had Redacted. I've talked to Redacted
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Perry Joyner. He was in there. Redacted was one of
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the guys that was up there as a rec officer. Question,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: so all those people were you had conversations with, specifically
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: with them, and you let them know? Answer, I talk
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: with these guys. Question, absolutely. Can you just name the
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: other people for the shifts after him? Answer, you got
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: now M. Thomas. M. Thomas, what you need to understand
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: is that he would have been Because, you know, like
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I said, overtime, non-custody. He's non-custody staff. I don't have
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: conversations with him. Question, okay, so Michael Thomas. Answer, so
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: that means, right, because realistically, the morning watch and evening watch,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: they don't like to come to work. Question, sure. Answer,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: so they, if you sign up for overtime, you say, oh, shoot,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: two is open. Okay, I'll take it. But you're non-custody.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: So that means anybody can work it. A teacher. a
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: food service foreman. Question, is the shoe easier to work
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: than the other units? Answer, I wouldn't say it's easier,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: but it's less labor intensive. Because in my opinion, from
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: when I worked special housing, special housing was always hard
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: work because I'm going to tell you why. You have
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: to be vigilant. And when I mean vigilant, you have
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: to understand when you're working that unit, anything can happen.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: It could be quiet, but guess what? If you're not walking,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: looking in those cells, testing the security protocol, meaning making
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: sure the flaps are closed, making sure the doors are locked.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: You want to know that. In shoe, sometimes doors was
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: unlocked or flaps open to chase doors, those, the food
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: service flap. Question, okay, sure. Answer, you know, making rounds,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: making sure the inmates or not have coverings up when
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: you open up. What do you call it? Question the window,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: answer the windows or put a towel over their beds
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: and blocking the light from you being able to observe them.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: And I want to go back because I know about
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: that statement about the doors being left open. I'm talking
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: about more in general population. As far as when you're
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: making rounds, those type of things you test. Making sure
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: the door is secure. Making sure the food slots are secure.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: As an officer coming up, even as a lieutenant, do
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: you know that I've actually walked in a unit and
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: pulled on the door that's supposed to be secure and
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: its inmate is wide open? Question wow. Ever at the MCC?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Answer no, because that wasn't my capacity. That wasn't my job,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: but as a line officer, subordinate, and also when I
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: was a lieutenant making rounds, that's what I would do.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: When I hit a unit, it wasn't just to talk
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: to staff. I'd walk in and look at the security
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: protocol in the unit. Is there a fire extinguisher there? Good.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Your phone work? Counters work? Computers work? Hey, let's walk
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: the block. Pulling on doors, pulling on food slots, showing
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: trying to train the officers. That's what I used to do. Question,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: lead by example. Answer, and guess what happens? You would
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: find stuff. Because people, in hurry enough to go home
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: on that evening watch, them inmates know their doors are locked.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: But they know they're going to come out. Because if
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: they come out, there's a situation. But they'll sit up there,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: and they'll leave it open. Question, so back to this though,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: can you look at the other shoe on, you know,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the subsequent shifts, if you had conversations with them? Answer,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: so Thomas, no. Because he is inside of the unit,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: you know, he was in charge of ensuring those sentry
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: rosters was updated. To ensure that the accountability of the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: unit was correct. To make sure that the inmates were
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: placed in their proper cells. Who is this? I'm sorry,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: hold on. Question and so in the shoe we want
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: to be focusing on. Answer T. Noel. T. Noel was one. Now,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I know Tova. Now Tova, I can't remember if I
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: spoke to Tova exactly. But I know I had hit
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: all three shifts, meaning that day watch, I was up
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: there on day watch. Evening watch, I stayed over because
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: that's what the warden wanted. He told me, hey, make
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: sure you go and hit all three shifts. The warden
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: told me to do it. So if the warden told
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: me to go do it, why wouldn't I go do it?
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: We sat down. He said, these are the things that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I want to happen. First, I want you to make sure,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: walk through, talk about, make sure the staff is aware
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that we're doing this, this and this. And also, I
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: know that you have. that I put out an email,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: so I just didn't tell them. What do you call that? Question,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: so you sent an email to the shoe? Answer, yeah,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I did, to all correctional staff, and I think I
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: still got it. Question, to all correctional staff? Answer, yeah. Question,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: did you ever provide that to anyone? Answer, huh? Question,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: did you ever provide that to anyone? Answer, no, they
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: never asked for it. Question, can you absolutely provide that
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to us? Answer, yeah, I think I have one. And
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: we can go to my office so I can show you.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I don't want you to think. I'll bring it up
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: for you. Question, so you would have this, Michael Thomas
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: and Tova Noel, been on that email? Answer, Tova would
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: have been, because he's a correctional officer, but not Thomas. Question, okay. Answer,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: you understand? But however, we did... was he gets cut
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: off by the investigator. I thought everyone was considered a
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: correctional officer. That's not the case. Answer, as far as
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: emergencies happen, when emergencies happen, regardless of what your discipline is,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: we all come together. It means you're going to everyone.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: When you came into BOP, everyone was given the opportunity
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: that when you went through correctional, those tactics that you
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: learned in Glencoe. It was about being a correctional officer.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: It wasn't about being a dentist or being a chaplain
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: or whatever. It's about correctional principles. Introduction to correctional principles. Question,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: but as far as there is... an email that just
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: the people that are working in the correctional officer answer
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: yeah and I can show you that because it wasn't
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: just me just talking to them I put out guidance
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: and I kept putting out guidance it wasn't like it
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: was one time I talked about inmates being placed on
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: suicide watch. I talked about inmates putting on there. What
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: is the difference between close supervision? What is it? Suicide
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: watch question, psychological observation, answer and psychological. There's no such
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: thing as psychological and that, you know, there's no such thing.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: It's called close supervision. There's no such thing as psychological.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: That was an MCC thing that they made up. So
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: it's a close supervision and or a suicide watch. Question,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: so you have at least one email though that you
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: sent to correctional officers saying that Epstein needed a cellmate? Answer,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: it wasn't saying Epstein, but I do have two. I
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: think I gave one email and one memorandum that I
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: wrote for the 583 packet for Epstein. I think you
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: may have that. I don't know if you have it.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: And then I have wrote another one about the importance
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: of doing 30 minute rounds in special housing units. Okay. Yeah.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: If you, after we're done, either you can send it
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: to me or give it to me. Question. I can
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: give it to you. I'm going to give you a copy. Question.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: All right. Then just, I think there's a few more. Like,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to spell his name or pronounce
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: his name. Redacted. Again, that was another non-custody guy. So redacted,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: I believe worked in, he's a material handler. I think
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: redacted was a material handler. So he's not correction services anymore. However,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: did they have a background? No, I'm sorry. Redacted went
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: to R & D, so he was receiving in discharge.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: So the staff members worked as correctional officers, came up
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: as correctional officers, but their daily assignment, their job descriptions changed.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: They're whatever, they're non-custody. Question, so the people that worked
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: in the SHU and the correctional officers, they were aware of,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: but people that had different functions in the facility, they
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: may not have been? Answer may not have been because
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't talk to them on a daily basis. Question.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And what about, do you know if there was any
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: kind of like post-it notes or sticky notes or he
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: gets cut off by the guard? Yeah, I had created.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: It was one because I said orange card inmates. I said,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: make sure that these particular inmates have high visibility inmates.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: And I think talked about that, that the inmates, their
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: cards should be orange. And those would be our high
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: visibility inmates that you And I think I got an
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: email about that too, about the high visibility inmates. Inside
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: of the unit, you should take special care of to
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: ensure that these inmates are observed when you're doing your rounds. Question,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: anything though about the actual cellmate requirement though? Do you
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: know if there was any kind of like sticky note
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: or any kind of post-it saying, hey, make sure that Epstein,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: he gets cut off by the guard. I can't remember.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: But like I said, I was putting out a lot
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: of guidance. You know, coming from, and you know, coming
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: from the warden and things that I would have thought
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: that was beneficial to the correctional officers. I was just
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: putting guidance out. I kept putting it out. You know,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: like I said, you know, I'm talking to them. I'm
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: putting out the guidance. But if they don't open their
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: email and don't read it. Question. And what about some
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: of the people who are acting lieutenants? Somebody like an
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: SOS redacted. Answer. A misredacted. Question. Redacted. Sorry. No, misredacted.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: She would work. Correctional post. Answer or question. So she
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: should have known. Answer. She would have known. Question. Should
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: she have known that Epstein had to have a roommate? Answer.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: It's common knowledge that you're supposed to do the 30
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: minute rounds and be vigilant. But however, would she know
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: necessarily that the protocols were placed on Jeffrey Epstein? that
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: he was supposed to have a cellie? I mean, you
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: see the orange card if you see the guidance. I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: believe I had put something together that was the OIC's desk.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: On the desk talked about the high visibility inmate and
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein was high visibility. Question, but is it understood
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: that high visibility inmates like that need a cellmate? Answer, yes. Question, okay,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: so you're saying make sure you're doing rounds, but it's
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: also understood that If it's a high visibility inmate, they
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: need a cellmate at all times? Answer, yes. Question, and
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: did they all understand that? Answer, yes. Question, okay. And
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: that included Thomas and Noel? Answer, I don't know. Because
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: they're not custody. And I don't believe I had that
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: conversation with them. I'm not going to lie. I didn't
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: have that conversation with them. Question, what about some of
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the lieutenants? Like acting lieutenants? Like redacted? Answer, yes. Mr. Redacted, Ms. Redacted, oh, Ms.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Redacted was in correctional service, and she, I believe, during
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the time, was working an attorney conference. She was in
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: correctional service. She was working an attorney conference during the time. So, Ms. Redacted,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: I actually promoted her to acting lieutenant. She was getting
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: paid as a lieutenant. So, yes, she would have known. Question,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: so she would have or should have known? Answer, yes. Question,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: how about some of these other ones that were on?
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: You said redacted, obviously. You already said, specifically directed him. Answer,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: if he, yeah. I brought him in the office and
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: we spoke, yeah. Question, do you know how? And I
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: think you had said you spoke to him on multiple occasions.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Is that correct? And made sure, hey, make sure this
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: inmate has a cellmate. Answer, yes. All right, folks, we're
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here. And in the next
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: where we left off. All the information that goes with
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to get back to the testimony
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: given by the securities captain to the OIG investigators. Question,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and do you remember, so you recall specifically talking with them,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: do you, and this is, I want to know, aside
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: from what they should have known, specific conversations with redacted. Answer.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I can't remember about redacted. I believe it's internal. I
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: came into the lieutenant's office and we spoke about it.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: So as a collective, the lieutenants were made aware. I
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: can't say I remember that I would come into the
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: lieutenants and we would talk about Epstein. So again, between
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: the guidance that was put out through emails and the
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: conversations that I would have had just encountering lieutenants. Yeah,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: but however, I can tell you for sure I had
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: a conversation with redacted. Question, and would have redacted made
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: sure that those people working in the shoe knew this information? Answer,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: he would have. As the lieutenant in charge, yes. Question,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: should have he made sure somebody likes somebody that's not
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: in there? Although Tova Noel, I think that was her
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: quarterly post, or at least she was in there a
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: lot of times leading up to it. So should have
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: he made sure that she, he gets cut off by
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: the guard? Yeah, because he worked evening watch. Michael Thomas,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: probably not, but by him working in the unit, he
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: would know. I mean, you would say, okay, if he's
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: working on evening watch or morning watch, there was no
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: need to move inmates. There were no showers that were
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: taking place. There were no hearings, no medical, nothing that
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: we had to open up a cell door for those inmates. Question, okay, answer,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: so most of those inmates was done on day watch.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: There was no reason for them to move these guys. Question, okay, answer,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: you understand what I'm saying? Question, sure. And then, as
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: far as the conversations with redacted? Answer was one of
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: the lieutenants. As far as, again, speaking to as lieutenants
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: as a forum? You know, hey, gotta make sure that
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: you guys are doing it. You know, like that. But
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I know for a fact the only person that I
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: spoke to that I pulled in my office was Shu OIC.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Was the Shu lieutenant, because they're in charge of the unit.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: So I disseminate the information and the guidance out to him,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: and he's supposed to take that guidance and push it forward.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Question for the unit. So he's in charge of the unit.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: You went to the guy in charge of the unit
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: and said, hey, you're in charge of the unit. Make
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: sure he's got a cellmate at all times. Answer, yes. Question,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: and he then is supposed to take that, and anybody
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: that works within his unit should know. Answer, yeah. Question, okay.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: What about these lieutenants? Though especially the ones that are
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: acting as like ops lieutenants and activities lieutenants. People like Redacted, Duran.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I think Redacted, Redacted. Should have they known during these
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: shifts specifically on the 9th and 10th? Should have they
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: known that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? Answer,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I believe so. Question, okay. But like, again, I would
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: have to go back through my emails, you know, because
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of the communication that me and the lieutenants
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: had were through email because you can't catch them all
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: in one shift, you know, catch them passing and coming.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: So I would put out guidance that way. Question. But
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: as far as you said that everyone knew he had
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: an orange card, that he had high visibility inmate, and
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: therefore he was required to have a cellmate. So should
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: have they had known through that? Answer. Yeah. Question. And
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: is there any excuse for any of them to say,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I didn't know? Answer, I'm not going to put that
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: on the lieutenant. You know, I'm not going to do that.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to be the guy to say whatever, whatever,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: because I'm going to tell you what, sir, to be
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: real with you. It was so much going on through
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: that timeframe that I don't want to put my statement
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: to something like that, that could detrimentally harm one of
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: these lieutenants. I'm not going to say that I talked
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: to redacted on this day. I'm just not going to
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: do that. Question. I'm not saying about speaking. I'm saying
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: just the fact that there was, and, and again, you're
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: saying that you don't recall specific conversations about the cellmate requirements.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: aside from redacted, but the fact that if there was
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: an orange card, is that something that just is common knowledge?
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: If someone has an orange card, a lieutenant should know
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: that he's got an orange card. He needs a cellmate?
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Answer right. But again, also, it was high visibility, guys.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: What do you call that? 10 South? The one inmate. Answer,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: that one occupancy. So with the guidance I had put out,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: I got to give you that email. Question. Okay. Answer.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: That email was saying that, hey, these guys with the
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: orange cards, you need to ensure high visibility vigilance. Question. So,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: all right. So he gets cut off by the guard.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Ensure that these guys, you know, are alive and all
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: of this, you know, report any, you know, I went
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: into detail with all of that. Question. Okay. So maybe not.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: If it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily mean then
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: that they require a cellmate. They just require. Answer. Answer.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: higher or higher supervision? Question, okay. So you just need
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: to know what they're doing at all times and make
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: sure that they're okay. Answer, yeah. Question, all right. So
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: in this instance, it wouldn't be necessarily cellmate. It would
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: be everybody knows to keep an eye on Epstein, make
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: sure that he's all right. So is the only one
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that you can specifically recall? And again, what you said? Question, yeah.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: And then again, when I went on evening shift, morning watch,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: those shifts, When I had those teams together, yeah, I
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: would talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute rounds. Make
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: sure this is done. Making sure that is done. Making
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: sure this guy, you know, that's what I did. Because
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: that's what Mr. Redacted wanted. So I did it. Question,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: all right. And then again, just to make sure that
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not misunderstanding you, you said you talked to Redacted
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: specifically about it. But when you did visit the shoe,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: not only were you telling them to keep high visibility
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: on Epstein, were you also telling them, the people, that
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: you did interact with, that he needed to have a cellmate? Answer, yes. Question, okay.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: On Friday, August 9th, or sorry, when's the last time
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: you can recall that you had a conversation with shoe staff? Answer,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I can't remember, sir. I don't remember. Because like I said,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: that guidance came out between the time of him being
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: upon his release from Suicide Watch from the last time.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: So that time during the time that we was doing
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: the vetting for the cellmate. So it was, you know,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: it was a short period of time that this guidance
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: and these conversations took place. And then the reinforcement was
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: when we would walk through the unit and just do rounds.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: And then I'm like, hey, this is high visibility guy.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Why is this guy got trays in his cell? Extra
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: trays in his cell? Why is this guy got this?
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: So then, of course, you know, a lot of people
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: at MCC, they didn't like me because I was trying
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: to hold people accountable. But I didn't always write people up.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: That's how I did. I came up like that. I'm
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: trying to help you. People thought me trying to just
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: talk to them about correctional service or trying, giving them little,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: you know, helping them out, talking to them, you know,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: that I was trying to be the know-all, be-all, be
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: that guy, you know? You know, you're not sociable, but
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: now you're down here telling us what to do. You're
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: not one of those. That's the way it felt like.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So like, again, I can give you the playbook to success,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: but if you don't read it, it's just words. It's
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: just words. And then I had a lot of issues
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: with the lieutenants. You know, lieutenants, you know, were self-serving.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Even though in my previous statement, I would never say
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: anything statements to hurt them. I'm not doing that. But
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: what I will tell you was the relationship between me
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: and the lieutenant corps was not good. So again, as
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: we move forward through today, you know, the statements that
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I make is not to try to put blame or
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: try to hurt anybody. The only thing I'm doing is
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: telling you that when the warden gave me direction, he
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: said he wanted X, Y, and Z. And X, Y,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: and Z. Not only did I talk to staff, I
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: also reinforced it by putting out emails because I know
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I can't catch everybody and I know that staff is
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: going to blow you off. I mean like, yeah, whatever.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: I'm glad he's out the unit. Let's go ahead and
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: go back to whatever we was doing. It is what
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: it is. Question, sure. And just so you know, just
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: to give you a little bit of peace of mind,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: we're asking you the questions directly. You're not placing blame
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: on anybody. So if we ask you, if they were
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: responsible for something, that's not on you. Answer, oh, okay, well,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to because I didn't understand that. Question, yeah, yeah. Answer,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: because like I said, I'm not here. I mean, he
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: gets cut off by the investigator. I mean, we might
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: say who's responsible or did they drop the ball, but
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: that's just asking you a direct question, not you coming
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to us saying it was this guy's fault. You know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: we're specifically asking you. So just, you know, Answer, that's
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: what I didn't understand. And that's not what, I mean,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not here for that. I'm just here. He gets
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: cut off by the investigator. I mean, we do have
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: to figure out who did drop the ball here. Answer, yeah. Question,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: but that's not, you're not coming to us. We're coming
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: to you. Answer, right. I understand. Question, so on Friday,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: August 9th, 2019, Lieutenant Redacted was on leave. And thus,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: there was no dedicated lieutenant assigned to the SHU. Answer,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: that is correct. Question, in this event, the operations lieutenant,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: lieutenant redacted, had oversight that day and took over the
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: responsibilities of the shoe lieutenant. So what time did you,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: can you look at that on August 9th? What time
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: that he worked on? Answer, the period that this is Friday, right? Question, correct,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: August 9th. Answer, I got, so basically I have redacted
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: was not there. He was there on that Saturday, which
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: was evening watch on that Saturday. Question, but he did
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: not work 4 p.m. to midnight. Answer, he worked 4 p.m.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: to midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. Question, okay,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: so you can speak. Do you know something different? Answer, no, no,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: I was just clarifying. Question, oops, sorry, can I see
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: the August 9th? Answer, so who was working on August 9th? Well,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: it appears I think you got redacted. Question. All right.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: So redacted would have been the ops lieutenant. Answer. Right. Question. Well, redacted.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And then underneath them, the activities lieutenant would have been
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Durant and then redacted. Answer. Right. Question. Correct. All right.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: All right. So they must have got this wrong somehow.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: So it said, so this is not accurate when it
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: says that in this report, in this event, the operations lieutenant,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: lieutenant redacted had oversight that day and took responsibility for
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: the shoe. who actually had oversight since Redacted was out? Answer,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: that would have been the Daywatch Operations Lieutenant. Question, and
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: who was that? Answer, the Daywatch Operations Lieutenant for August
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: 9th would have been, it appears, it was Redacted. Question,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: so Redacted would have been responsible? Answer, right. Question, and
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: is it your understanding that Redacted knew that he needed
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: a cellmate? Answer, I believe so. All right, folks, we're
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: we left off. All the information that goes with this
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone?
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're getting right back to the interview given
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: by the securities corrections captain at MCC to the OIG investigators. Question. Okay.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: All right. So that was incorrect. All that stuff about
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: the redacted thing. And then it goes on to say
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: redacted informally advised his lieutenants that Epstein was not to
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: be housed alone and emphasize the need to be vigilant
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: about 30 minute checks and unannounced rounds. And that you
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: said there were emails about that as well as when
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: you spoke with your lieutenants and when you went to
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: the shoes specifically. Answer. Uh-huh. Question. Correct. All right. And
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: you don't remember the last time you did that, but
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: between August, between July 30th and August 9th. You at
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: least did it a few times. Answer, right. Question, okay.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: And do you think that you hit at least all
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: three shifts between that time? Answer, correct. Question, okay. Answer,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I believe I did, yeah. Question, all right. Inmates, cellmates,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: and are typically the people that are assigned to the SHU,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: are they in those three shifts? Or you would have
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: to hit the people that are assigned between that time period.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: So point being, maybe you don't remember specifically. I had
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: a conversation with that person or that person or that person.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: But if they're assigned to the SHU, not a temporary
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: duty assignment like OT type of assignment, but the people
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: that were assigned there, that was their duty too. Answer.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: So like I remember specifically, I had day watch redacted.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I remember Mr. Perry, Percy or Perry, whatever his name was.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I remember those guys. I know I spoke to a redacted.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I know I spoke to different guys, the shoe staff
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: that was always up there. Question, but you just don't
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: specifically remember talking to Noel? Answer, no. Question, okay. Answer,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: she might have been in the background somewhere. She could
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: have been there. I don't know, but I don't remember.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: He gets cut off by the investigator. But redacted should
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: have spoken with her. Answer, of course. Because that's part of,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: that's part of the expectations of the unit. If I
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: give you a guidance, your guidance should have been disseminated
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: down to the officers. Question, okay. How about the people?
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: So we're, Going to get into this later, but since
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: we're conversing about it now, it looks like Reyes was moved.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: I think his appointment with court was at like 830.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: And I think he was gone from the institution by
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: like 150. Does that sound right? Answer something like that.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: It could have been. Question. So who was in the
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: shoe at that time? If he's gone from the institution
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: by like 150, who would have been? Who would have
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: been there? Answer, so that would have been all of
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: your 6-2 and your 8-4 staff. Question, so I guess
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: let's go from the top. Who would have been the
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: person in charge at the top level? Answer, that, I
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: mean as far as that, would have been Shu-1, because
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: he would have got the guys to notice that he
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: was supposed to move the other guys. Question, and who
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: was that? Answer, and move the inmate. Question, and who
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: was that? Answer, it was redacted. Question, redacted. And what
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: time was he working from? Answer, he was working from
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: 8 to 4. Question, so he was 8 to 4,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: and those times are accurate on there. And if the
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: lieutenant said, oh, we know, it says 0 to 8,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: but we're actually 10 p.m., he gets cut off by
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: the guard, and that's true. The officers worked those prescribed shifts. Answer, okay. Question,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: the lieutenant was given those shifts because of their commutes.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Some of them were coming two hours out. So for
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: them to come from various parts of Jersey or Long Island,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: you know, as a consensus, we said, hey, I'll continue.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Because that was the previous administration, the previous captain put
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: that in for those guys. So, you know, with those conversations,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: you know, with the lieutenants, I said, I'll keep that.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I said, you know, you try to do those things
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: where I came from. We didn't do those things. You know,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: as far as that, you know, the captain ran a shift.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Whatever the shift was, you did it. But when I
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: came to Brooklyn... That was a common practice in Brooklyn.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: That was common practice in Brooklyn. You know, the captain
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: would allow them, when I was a lieutenant, would allow
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: us to know to work those shifts. And due to,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: we've got staff that commute far out. So that was
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: just an incentive to get these guys to come to work.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: You know? Answer, sure. But the time for the SHU staff,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: that's the actual hours that's listed on that? Answer, but
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: for the line staff, that roster correctly... Imitates their schedule.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Question perfect. So who then? I guess. You said they
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: would be working until 4 p.m.? Answer right. Question. So
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: they would have at least two hours to be able
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: to do something? Answer right. Question. And who was it
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: that was on that day? Answer. So I had redacted.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I had joiner. I had redacted. And I had redacted. Question,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: and did you speak with all of those individuals about
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: the need for a cellmate? Answer, I believe I did,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: because they were day watch. But like I said, it
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have been on August 9th. Question, right, but just,
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: but they would have known that they need to. Answer,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: they was in the unit for that quarter. So once
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: I got the guidance from Mr. Redacted of what he
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: wanted me to do, I moved on and did it.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: So I can't tell you, but I know I spoke
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: to the day watch shoe staff. There were the first
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: ones that I spoke to. Question, so who then, out
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: of there, who would have the shoe staff reported the
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: matter to? Answer, the what now? Question, so the shoe
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: staff that's in there, they now know that he doesn't
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: have a cellmate. And the cellmate is not coming back. Answer, okay,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: so they would have known that he wasn't coming back
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: until probably evening watch. Question, okay, so you don't think
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: that those guys would have known? Answer, no, they wouldn't
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: have known because I don't know when the inmate left
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: the institution, but what happens is when the court line
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: comes out, I believe that the inmate leave the institution
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: supposed to between six and eight or seven, you know,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: let's say seven to nine. So between that time, those
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: inmates are, they're picked up, and then they're transported to court. Question, okay,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: so what time did Redacted work? What was his shift? Answer,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: it was 8 to 4. Question, so if we can,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: let's assume for this instance that Redacted knows that he
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: needs a cellmate. What should have been done? Answer, probably
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have known. Question, but let's say for this instance
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: he did know. Answer, so if he knew, he knew
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: that he needed a cellmate, and he knew that the
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: cellmate wasn't coming back. He probably wouldn't. But what I'm
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: trying to tell you, sir, he probably would have never known. Question,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I know. But in this instance, I'm just saying, let's just,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: let's say that he did. Answer, okay, so the instance
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: of what would have happened, what would happen was, he
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: should have, okay, this guy's not coming. He should have
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: notified me. He should have been like, hey, Cap, hey, Reyes, Epstein, cellmate.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: He went to court. He's not coming back. Question, and
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: he did not. Answer, no. Question, okay. Answers, no one
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: later informed me that that inmate ever went to court.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't even know that he went to court. Because
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: guess what? During the time this inmate is in court,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein is an attorney visiting all day. Question, sure. Answers,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: so nobody would have even thought about it because, oh,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Epstein is an attorney visiting. His cellmate is not in there. Okay,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: his cellmate went to court. Nobody would have even been
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: made aware that he didn't have a cellie until they
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: went to put him physically in the cell. Question, okay,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: so when do you think it would have been in
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: this instance? When do you think it would have come from? Answer,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: as far as knowing he didn't have a cellie? Question, correct. Answer,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: somebody should have known when he didn't come. They should
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: have been on evening watch. Question, so who was on
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: evening watch? Answer, so evening watch, well, let's see here.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: You're talking about, as the OIC? Question, in the shoe? Answer, yeah,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: that would have been redacted. Question, okay, so redacted? Answer, yeah. Question,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: and who should have he reported the matter to? Answer,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: he would have reported it to the operations lieutenant. Question,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: and who was the operations lieutenant at the time? Answer,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I believe the lieutenant would have been, that would have
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: been redacted. Question, all right, and redacted again. You, no
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: one told you, so obviously you didn't tell anyone. Answer, yeah. Question,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: so okay, and would redacted have gone directly to redacted? Answer, yeah,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: he would have called. But guess what? I was there.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I didn't leave that night until like 8. I was
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: there until 8 that night. Question, right, and you did
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: not visit the shoe that night? Correct. Answer, I can't remember. Question, alright. Answer,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say, did I make the rounds that
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: day or I didn't? I don't know. But I know
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: I didn't leave the institution until late that night. Question,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: and you know, though, that Reyes... You were never aware
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: on that day that Reyes had went to court. You
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: didn't even know that he went to court, let alone
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: that he was coming back. Answer, correct. Question, okay, so
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: redacted should have went direct to redacted. Answer, correct. Question,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: all right, and is somebody that you did have a
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: conversation with regard to the need for the cellmate, correct? Answer,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know if, again, talking to people in all
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: three shifts, do I remember redacted working in the unit? Yeah.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: But as you're talking to people, I don't remember that. Hey,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: I talked. There's a certain people that I can't remember
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: that I spoke specifically to. As opposed to some people,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: you know, could have been in the area. That's why
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: I can't. I mean, I know I talked to the
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: day watch shoe staff for sure. As I mentioned those names,
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I talked to those guys. Question. So, but redacted should
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: have certainly have told them answer. Yes. Question, so he's
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: the officer in charge. Who else was on that day? Answer,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: you had Tova Noel, and she was number two, and
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: then you had... Redacted. Question, Tova Noel, correct? Answer, yeah. Noel,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: and then you had M. Thomas. Was shoe three that day,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: and then had the shoe four, was not assigned. Question, okay,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: so those three people were in shoe. So was it
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: ultimately the officer in charge's responsibility? Or should have the
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: other two, Redacted and Noel, have taken any action? Should
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: have they contacted anyone? Answer, well, if you're walking and
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: you're doing rounds in the unit, you would see especially
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: at the 4 p.m. count because you need to know
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: where all of your inmates are. So at the 4
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: o'clock count, where's Epstein? Epstein is at his attorney visiting
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: because he's going to get a count slip from the
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: attorney visit, right? Where's Reyes? Reyes is out at court.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Then somebody should have called R & D. Where is
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: this guy? Somebody should have called R & D. That
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: means the lieutenant would have been notified because you can't
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: clear the count. Where's the inmate at? So if you
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: can't clear the count, where's the inmate? The inmate went out,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: but it's now four o'clock. But I did say that
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: sometimes inmates don't come back on the four o'clock. So
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: they call that ghosting. Supposedly he's supposed to be at court,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: but did you get a consulate from the court? No.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: When he leaves out of the institution, that's on them.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: So that means the institution number should have came down
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: minus one. question so you believe that the shoe should
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: have known by the 4 p.m. during the 4 p.m.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: count answer yeah question all right and let's in this
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: case if they didn't do a count at 4 p.m.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: should have someone known otherwise after that so would someone
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: have contacted them and said hey by the way this
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: guy's not coming back Answer, right. So that means that
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: the 4 p.m. count, when you're going through the unit,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: he gets cut off by the guard. But if they
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: didn't do a 4 p.m. count, so let's say in
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: this instance that they didn't do a 4 p.m. count. Answer,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: nobody would know. Question, would R & D have called them? Answer, no. Question,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: so unless they do the count, they don't even know
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: that the guy's not coming back? Answer, that's right. Question, okay.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: So no one is calling? Them in saying, by the way,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: your guy that went to court, he's not coming back.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Answer right. Question okay. Answer because you would know. Because
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: like I told you before, sometimes inmates go to court
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: and they don't come back. The only time you're going
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: to know is when these guys always come back from
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: court line by four o'clock. But sometimes they don't come
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: back at four. All right, folks, we're going to wrap
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: up right here. And in the next episode dealing with
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: All the information that goes with this episode can be
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: found in the description box.