Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Ranin Karim: Carl Lentz's Ex-Mistress Who Exposed The Hillsong Church Scandal

Transcript

Ranin Karim: Carl Lentz's Ex-Mistress Who Exposed The Hillsong Church Scandal · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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  Speaker 1: That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash P-O-D. Start your journey to
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  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Welcome back to Misunderstood.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Rachel Yucatel. So this week, Hulu put
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: out a four-part series called The Secrets of Hillsong, which
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: documents a global megachurch and their descent into scandal. Carl
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Lentz was a celebrity pastor, a one-time hype priest, and
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: a former spiritual advisor to many celebrities, most famous of
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: which was Justin Bieber. My next guest was at the
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: center of it all when it came crashing down, and
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you that I spoke to her this week,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: and I had a really interesting conversation with her. If
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: you think it's just about Someone being a mistress and
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: coming in and ruining a marriage and taking down a
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: guy who was a pastor in a church. The story
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: is actually much bigger than this. So I was really
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: honored to meet Raneen. And I hope that you guys
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: listen to this episode because I think it's really interesting.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: And especially if you are into the documentary or into Hillsong,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: you will find this fascinating. So welcome my next guest,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Raneen Karim. Hi, so welcome. Thank you so much for
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: joining me.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: So I guess we have to jump right into, you know,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: why we're kind of here. The documentary came out this weekend.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: The first two parts. The second two parts will be out,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I guess, this coming weekend or shortly. Have you seen it?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I did because I felt I received a lot
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: of feedback from different people. Mostly, like, very disappointment. You know,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of disappointment from people that have... Worked for
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: the church, was part of the church, followed Carl for
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: a long time. So I just felt like since everyone
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: was also upset because how I was showing, I wanted
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: to really like see it. Because it's funny enough, I
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: didn't watch my own documentary because I felt like this
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: is way faster and just don't like watching myself. So
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: it was easier to just see, to watch that one.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: But I did. I watched both of the first episodes.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: They did not contact you to be in it, did they?
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Before I decided to go with the New York Post
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: and they eventually went on the Discovery Channel, I had
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: the reporter who actually interviewed me for Vanity Fair reach
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: out to me. I wasn't sure if he's going to
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: do that with them, but I feel like it was
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: in the works. So he didn't give me a guarantee
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: as for if they're going to like, you know, Pay
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: me for my time. So, of course, that I didn't
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: want to do for free anymore. So, I decided to
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: just go ahead and work with the post. And I
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: believe that he is part of it. That's why, eventually,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: they end up doing the documentary.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: But, yeah. So, I wasn't sure if that was for that.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: But I'm sure it was.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: So, this documentary, it's the first time that Carl Lentz
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: has spoken out, right? In, like, three years or something?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Two years, yes.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Two years. Okay. So, what was that like hearing, in
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: his words, how he thought things went down?
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I mean... I'm going to be honest because when I
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: watched it, it was a lot of tears from his
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: end and his wife's. And he likes to cry a lot.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: So I was really laughing when I watched it because
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I was like, he cried in front of me so
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: many times. So I just don't think his tears are genuine.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I don't think... It's not surprising, to be honest. From
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: everything that it was showing and the way he spoke
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: about it, I feel like he knew everything from the beginning.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Because you cannot be in just a big system and
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: big church like that and not knowing exactly what's going
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: on for so many years. So I just know that
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: it got to a point where he had to hide
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: for two years and not say anything because he probably
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: got paid to keep it quiet. But then... it's easier
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: to come back and just throw all the blame on
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: somebody else.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Right. So had you ever been to Hillsong Church?
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Funny enough, before I met him, I was going through
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: a divorce, and one of my best friends, I was
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: going through a lot of things with my ex-husband, and
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: she wanted to help me, and she took me there.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: They had one in 14th Street in Union Square. And
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: I didn't know nothing about it because I'm not even Christian,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: let's put it that way. I'm Muslim. I grew up
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Muslim in every aspect, and I was very open to
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: how can I heal myself. And for me, it's like
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: if I went to the church, not because I believe
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: I'm Christian, it's because there's something beautiful about being around
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: people that can somewhere heal you, if it's through a
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Bible or Quran or whatever. So I went there out
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: of wanting to heal, not because I really wanted to
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: be a Christian or convert or anything like that. So
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: I went there one time. I do remember... hearing about him,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: seeing him, not really remember his face. I really, it
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: was like 2015. Like it was long time ago, 2014.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: And I didn't know nothing. So looking back when meeting
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: him was just so ironic to like thinking that kind of,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Briefly seeing him and not really seeing him and knowing
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: of him and knowing of the church and being there
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: one time.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: And then physically meeting him, it was just very, very
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: a big moment for me because I was very confused
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: to why, you know, why me and why all that happened.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: So, but he didn't make that much of an impression
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: on you that you remembered who he was the first
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: time you met him.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: No.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: So I think that's important because a lot of people
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: are confused. They think you met him because you were
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: part of the church and you went there and all that.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Why don't you start with the story of how you
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: guys met?
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: So I was back in 2020. I was working for
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Celine and I was working from home. It was during COVID.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: I went to Domino Park, which is around my house.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: I was sitting in the circle. They had like those
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: circles that everybody had to sit, you know, two feet
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: away from each other. And I noticed something. while I
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: was working on my work, my phone, my work phone,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I noticed a person like stretching on the bench and
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I was sitting, sitting literally crossed from the circle. I mean,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: from the bench, sorry. And he kept looking at me
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: and had a can of Coke. And I know he
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: drinks Cokes after working out or playing ball, which knowing
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: later on, that's what he used to do.
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: And he was stretching. Then somebody came from nowhere, bought
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: him a blanket. I didn't even notice. Like it was
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: so briefly because I was, I wasn't paying attention much.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: It was like, Looking up, there was a lot of people.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: It was in the middle of the day. It was sunny.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: It was in May. Funny enough, so I turned around.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: There was girls sitting next to me. They were talking
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: to me about my dog, asking where I'm from because
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: of my accent. And I have noticed that he sat
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: in one of the circles, and he kept watching us. Mm-hmm.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: And he kept looking and looking. And I can tell
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: that he was dropping his ears because, you know, he's
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: a guy. He's a good-looking man. Wasn't wearing a ring. Nothing, like, unusual.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: And he was sitting on his iPad working, whatever he
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: was doing. He was actually doing push-ups in the circle.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: And then I was about to head out and go
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: back home because it was already late. And I noticed
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: that he saw me getting up and he got up
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: at the same time and he said, you can take
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: my circle. And I said, I'm okay. I'm actually going home.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: So at that moment also was some guy just gave
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: me a paper and he said, hey, please call me.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Like he gave me a little note and I took
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: the note and then I was like folded it and
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: put it on my hand and kept it. And then
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: when I started walking with Carl, he was like, I
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: was telling him, it's so funny. I just, I'm very,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: very friendly when I meet people. I'm not going to
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: be rude. So I was like, he started walking with me,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: which I thought is weird. But okay, we walk in
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: the same direction. He's handsome. I was just like, okay, cool.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Let's walk. And then I told him, it's so funny.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: This guy gave me his phone number and it was
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: like random and I just ripped it in front of
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: him and I just threw it away. And he said
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: to me, well, you know, like for how long you
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: live in the neighborhood? He started asking me a lot
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: of questions and we kept walking towards So I found
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: out later on that the first time they had the
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: church was in this area on Kent. And it was
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: one of those big buildings. And he walked that direction. Okay.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: So when I asked him, I saw somebody bring you
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: a blanket. He said, yeah, I used to live around
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: here for 10 years. And then we walked and we
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: got to a corner where I had to go up
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: back to my house. And he went back to those
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: big buildings. And he gave me his phone and he said,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: because we talked about his age. We talked about different things.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: And then... He was very curious. He asked me a
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: lot more questions more than I asked him. And I
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: don't mind sharing, but I felt like he was being nosy.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: So I didn't want to talk too much. But then
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: he said he handed me his phone and he opened
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: his notes. And he asked me to write my number
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: on his notes. And I thought it's really strange. And
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, he's 21. Maybe he's a little old
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: in his brain. So maybe I'm just like, I'm going
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: to follow his lead, whatever. So I wrote my number.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: And then I, you know, when you text someone, you
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: usually have the little emoji face. And I had like
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: my emoji, not my picture. And he said, oh, this
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: emoji doesn't adjust to the way you look like. And
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, that's already flirtatious comment, right? And
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: then he sent me photos of his dogs and he
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: told me it was so nice to meet you. That
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: was the hyperbole. of my day at the park. And
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: you kind of, okay, he's really like trying me, you know,
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: like it's not like, and I was in that, at
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: that point I said, can I please have your last name?
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Cause I want to save you on my phone. And
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: he was like, oh, I don't, I think it's better
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: for us to like maybe meet again or have you
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: knowing me rather than you like researching and doing your thing.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: So he already knew that I'm going to do that
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: because everybody Googles everyone. Of course. I don't want to
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: be around a psycho, you know? So yeah. So I kept, like,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: he sent me a photo of his dogs to show
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: me that he have dogs, like, because he met my dog.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: My dog was with me. And I was like, oh,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: you know, like, and we kept chatting. And then he
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: said to me, well, tomorrow when you go to the park,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: save me a spot. And that was Friday. So Saturday
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I went back to the park and I asked him,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: do you like coffee? And he's like, oh, you're so nice. Why?
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't meet you before. Like, very much kind of like,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: where this guy came.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: From, you know?
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We get to the park. He was sitting really
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: far away from the park and I can see him.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: And I was like texting him and say, why actually
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: I called him and his phone, I think was dead
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: because the battery from the heat, whatever his one wasn't working.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And then he noticed me and then he came around,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: he sat on the bench and I was sitting on
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: the grass and I, he kept asking me questions.
• 11:09
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• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I cut him off and I said, wait, you ask
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: me too much question. What do you do? Like he said,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I told you I manage like athletes and I travel
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: with them. And I was like, well, you're an agent.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: And he asked me, what do you do? I said,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I worked in knife life before. Like I know a
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: lot of people in the industry. He said the same thing.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: He used to travel and party with people. And he
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: just went on and on. And I got to a
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: point where I was very curious, like what is your story?
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Because you seem very mysterious. And he sat on the
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: grass with me and I said to him, these photos
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: you sent me of your dogs, where are they? He said,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: they're in New Jersey. I said, are you married? That's
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: what I asked him. And he said, yes, I am.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: And I said, okay, so for how long have you
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: been married? He said for 17 years or so. And
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I said, okay. So at this point, I was like,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: this is really annoying because it's like, why are you
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: wasting my.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Time, right? Yeah, two days now you spent with this guy.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: And no, he basically, because the day before he was
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: saying like, oh, you know, we should do some tequilas
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: together and do some shots. And then he planned, he's like,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: I'm going to hit you up later. And I was
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: actually on a date with somebody else. And he hits
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: me up and I said, okay, so let me know.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, if anything, I can just leave because I
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: liked his attention more and I wanted to like bounce.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: But he never got back to me and it was
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: not a big deal because I just met him. But
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: the day after, I was very bummed. I'm like, this
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: is annoying because who wants to waste so much time
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: and talking to someone going anywhere? So he ended up,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: he said, I have to go have a meeting. I
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: have to be on a Zoom, whatever. And he left.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Later on, I get a message from him of a picture.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Like he took a photo from the penthouse he was
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: staying at, a metropolitan. And he sent me a photo.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: It's like, if you take a photo, you can see
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: me from the park. So he took a far photo
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: to be like, oh. I can tell you were disappointed,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: you know, that I told that I was married. I said, actually, yeah,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: because kind of like you don't do all of this
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: for nothing. This is really not OK. And then he said,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's OK. Maybe you can just come
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: next time. You can have weekend time on the roof.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: He invited me to his friend's house and I said,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: it's OK, like whatever. And then we ended up discussing
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: to actually meet up. And I said, it's okay. We
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: can just be friends. We can just have drinks. Because
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I can separate from being wanted to be into you
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: and actually have you as a friend. Women knows how
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: to put guys in the friend zone. And we're really
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: good at that. And men doesn't. So we can just
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: turn the switch off, which I did. So he ended
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: up inviting me. He called me face to face. He said, oh,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: my God, you look so beautiful, whatever. Do you mind
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: if I come to your house? And I was like.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I don't feel comfortable. I really don't invite people because
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: my home is like my temple. I really don't have
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: people in my home like that. It's very personal.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: And this was like the third day now?
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: This is the same Saturday.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: The same Saturday.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: The second day.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, the second day. And then I remember he asked
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: me to, you know, he came over. He brought the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: tequila with him in his backpack. And then he sat
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: on the couch across from me like he's there by
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the wall and I'm sitting here. And he was like, oh,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: do you want to get more comfortable and maybe change?
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And I said, this is a weird request. They asked
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: me to change my pants. So I did, actually, because
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: I was wearing those pants. I was like, okay, I'll wear, like,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: you know, like shorts. You know, like I have shorts.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: So I wore shorts. And he was... You can tell
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: he wanted to feel more comfortable. And then... I started
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: asking him like a little more questions. So prior to that,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: that Saturday, I went home and I was going crazy.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I need to find out this guy's last name.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I need to figure out who he is. And I said, okay,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to invite a stranger to my house
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: where I know he was. So I went online. I
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: found this app that you can pay a dollar to
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: find out more details on the person.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, like a reverse app.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: It's not like, it's more like you put their number
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: and it gives you all their background.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Where they come from. So I put his number, which
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: is a Virginia number.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And then I looked, everything came up and it says
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: what his last name. And I was like, oh my God.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: And then I looked him up and I said, this
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: is so crazy. Because I briefly saw his face somewhere.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Because the church was like Hillsong, like back then when
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I went to the church in 14th Street, it was huge.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: the stages was like, it was a theater. So you
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: have a lot of like those like balconies. And then
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I was on top of the balcony. You can see
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: the stage. So I wasn't really able to see the
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: whole stage. You can see glimpse of it because there's
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of people.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: And so you didn't see his face that close up.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: No, but I thought it's really weird. I'm like, he,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: back then I was like, he's wearing those skinny jeans.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: He looked like a rock and roller. Like he wasn't
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: like a pastor to me, which I wasn't really, I
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: don't know nothing about that. But back then I didn't know. So, um,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: So whatever. So we go back to my house. We're sitting.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: We're talking. And then towards the end of the night,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: nothing really happened. Like, you know, we were chatting. And
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: then he was like, I feel so bad. I shouldn't
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: be doing this. Like, he was walking by my door,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: standing by the door. And we're talking. And I said
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: to him, relax. It's all good. Like, nothing's, like, we're okay. Like,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I was laughing. I was like, it's not a big deal. Like,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: I feel like he was more emotional than me. You know,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: it was like, I was just, okay, I live in
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: New York. I'm a woman. We all go through disappointments and, like, rejections,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: all that thing. So it's normal. So he ended up
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: leaving and then he messaged me with so nice, whatever,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: do you mind if I text you sometime, check on you?
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Like he wanted to keep it going. Right. And that's
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: what was upsetting to me because people start saying things
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: about me. You don't know the whole story. Yeah. Because
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I have tried to tell him to leave me alone
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: multiple times because I know that he's somewhere. He's not
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: really there. It's not registering what he's doing because he
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: was so reckless to how things ended eventually. Right. But
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: it just went on and on. And then he one
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: time– what else do you want me to tell you?
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Because there's a lot of information.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you just gave so much information. So let's slow
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: down for one second. So I think it is a
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: very interesting thing that people do not talk about enough
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: that married men or married people, whatever, say a lot
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: of things– to get their way and they're very deliberate
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: about it. And, you know, I think a lot of
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: people are very quick to blame things on the mistress
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: and say it's all the mistress's fault. And the mistress
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: gets the stigma and always keeps the stigma. But, you know,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I think the thought is kind of like, oh, this
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: woman swooped in, stole him from his wife, you know,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: corrupted him and, you know, was like this disease or
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: this weapon of mass destruction that blew something up. Many times...
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: it's the men making it okay and saying things that,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: you know, we want to hear or saying things that
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: is not true about what's going on in their life,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: but they want it to be true.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: So you were single, right? I mean, you could date
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: anyone you wanted.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: And so it wasn't your issue. It was his. And
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: you eventually, it sounds like, went with your gut on
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: this guy's making it okay. So what's the problem?
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: No, and I think that's what I kept saying. Like,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: And then he had a choice because he did come
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: to me and he asked me to go sit on
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: the bench. I literally told him, he said that to me.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: That was a hurtful moment. He said, I go back
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: to my family. You go back to nothing. And I said,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: that's a good point because I really don't. Honestly, I
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: go back to blank canvas that I can draw anything
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: on it because, you know, you go to your family
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: that are clearly unhappy because you married somebody that you
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: were forced to be married to because that's what they
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: told you to do. In order for you to get
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: to where you got in your life. And it was
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: all monitored and planned. Because in reality, you didn't. I
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: even told him one time. And he agreed. And I said,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: you're like this kid that want to play so badly.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: But it's been like hiding inside of you. And he
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: looked at me and he said, yeah. And I said,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: that's why you're drowning in yourself. Right. And I kept
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: telling him. Basically, wake up. Get your life together because
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: you are like a disease that's hurting everybody else, including me,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: even that I'm not even. I didn't look for you.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: I had no idea who you are. I never met
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: you in my life before. Just a moment, I don't
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: even know who you are as a person. I'm not
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: even a Christian. There's so many elements. They're coming to
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: play where I really did not look for this person.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: And people think that I looked him up, DM'd him. Like,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: I never knew him. If I didn't see him at
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: the park, I'll probably never see him again. Right, right, right.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: So it's just really upsetting because I get those messages
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: sometimes where, like, I'm homewrecked and I'm this and I'm that.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: How?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: When... Clearly, this documentary talks about how he had a
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: relationship with his nanny. Yeah. So we need to stop
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: here because I need to be... People nowadays need to
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: thank me for what happened to that church because otherwise
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: people will be abused, used... like there's so much damage
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: that's been done that they need to sit here and say,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: thank you Renine for what happened. Right. Not come and
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: make me feel Somewhere bad about it. Right.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: So, and for people that don't really know the story,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: what ended up happening is your affair was what took
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: his career down.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: How did people find out about what happened?
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: So, basically, I'm going to, so around the last time
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: we kind of spoke, okay, so everything fell down and
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I think it's end of December. Mm-hmm. And maybe October
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: or December around that time. I really cannot remember the dates.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: But before that, his daughter was going through something because
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: he did reach out to me in September. And when
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: I told him to stop contacting me, he was kind
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: of like, I'm contacting you. I know you're going to
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: delete the message, but I don't know who to talk to.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And I feel like because you care about me, I
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: want to believe you care about me that my daughter
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: tried to take her life away. And he just shared
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: something so personal, which I was blew in a way
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: and I even told my friend I don't even know
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: how to respond to this because if I was his
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: wife I'll be pissed because he shouldn't be talking about
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: his personal life with.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Someone because he's sharing something so private between the two
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: of them with.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: You right but then he wanted me to have empathy
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: and sympathy so that's the only way I can respond
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: to him so after that first after the situation I
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: fell into it again. You know, I was, I felt really,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: I was mean to him and I was kind of
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: like telling him that he's so selfish. He's just trying
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to find a way to get, to get my attention.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: And he did. Yeah. Because I'm not an evil person.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to just ignore, be like, fuck you
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: and fuck your family.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: But I did respond. And I said, you know, I'm
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: here for you if you need anything, whatever. And after that,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: we went back to the routine of like, he's like,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I'm going to, he kept, it's so bizarre. I cannot
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: even explain to you how it just felt like he
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: was really in a dark place, but he kept like
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: wanting to, be cared for. And like, so he kept
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: coming back. He will like say, I'm staying or where
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: my daughter is like in the, in the, in the clinic,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to drive a car and come see you.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: And he did. And to the point where, which really
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: upset me because I'm like, if you really loved your family,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: care about you.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Don't miss the USL championship final on CBS, November 21st
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: at noon Eastern. Will the Pittsburgh Riverhounds retain their crown
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: or will a new title winner emerge? Don't miss the
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: conclusion to the 2026 season, Saturday, November 21st at noon
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: Eastern on CBS.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: By the way you speak about her, why did you
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: find it okay to stay at Justin Bieber's house two
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: blocks away from my house and ride his motorbike and
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: come to my house at 11 o'clock at night while
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: your wife is at his house? So this whole thing
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: got really reckless, as I said, and to the point
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: where Hillsong said, kind of like whoever was at the
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: church was looking into his iCloud and saw the exchange
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: of text messages between me and him.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And that's how eventually he messaged me and he, basically
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: he sent me a video. He wanted to come over
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: that one day and then I told him like, I'm not,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: don't put me on a time frame because it's not,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work like that. So then I told him that, yeah,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: because it was, I could come from this. I'm like,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: just let's not do it because already it got to
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: a point where it's just, we're stretching it too much
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: and it just, I'm, In and out of this, it
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: was too much.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Were you in love with him? Do you think he
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: was in love with you?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I think today, when I look at it from a
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: different angle, I would say it was more of being
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: fascinated or obsession. Because I was something that it was
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: secret for him. And he talked about it in a documentary.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: He's just born into the secret thing, talking about his
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: abuse and all that stuff. So I just think It
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: was something that he needed to be his, like something
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: private or something that he can feel like that it just,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Some people love to have secrets because
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: it just makes them feel alive. Yeah. You know? And
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: I think that's why he needed it.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: And honestly, if things didn't blow up the way they did,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: he would probably never stop. I had my roommate seeing
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: him riding the bike outside my house once. And he
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: told me, he's like, I was hoping to see you
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: in the trash that I can bump into when I
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: told him not to talk to me anymore. This is
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: how I felt like people didn't see those perspectives because
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I honestly, Rachel, I didn't tell too much about what
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: happened between us because I didn't want to destroy him.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to get into details because he was really,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: he was like, I think he was in love with
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: me in a sense where like, I haven't seen somebody
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: so like, so wanted to be involved. Like he, he
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: came to my friend's house, waited for me downstairs. He
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: wanted to talk to me. Like he was outside my
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: building taking picture, telling me he was there, but I
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: didn't want to open the door. Like this is, I
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: don't know if it's obsession, but like the needness of like,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: just to be loved and want to be loved and
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: be noticed, you know? And I think that's like a
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: kid that never got attention from his mother, you know? Yeah.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you say all this, because I mean,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: if you're like looking at it from a, psychological perspective.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: This is a guy who is on stage who people
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: are obsessed with. I mean, people stand, you know, 7,000
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: people deep in a line to go see this man
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: and hear him speak. And frankly, he was amazing. You know, um, I've,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: you know, you can see it in the documentary. I
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: went once, I'll tell you my story in a second
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: about when I met him, but, um, you know, he,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: that is his calling in the way that he is
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: very good. You know, whatever the intention is behind it,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter for a second, but his, his, the way
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: he is a public speaker, the way he's an actor,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: sort of, um, the way he creates, um, this effortless
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: way to take faith into your life and preach to
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: other people and have people who may not even believe
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: in that. But by the end, you're like, wow, I
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: feel something that I didn't know I could feel, whether
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: it's They're interested in God or whether they just feel
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: at home with the group next to them. Whatever it is,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: there's something magical about him and what he did. So
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I get that, like, so many people are in love
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: with him. What I think is interesting about men like him,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: and I've met men like him and I know them
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: very well, they are used to people putting them on
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: a pedestal. And they don't realize– or people, you know,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: civilians sort of don't realize these people are just normal
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: people at the end of the day. And they– need
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: to be loved in a way that like they want
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: to be known, but not known for the stuff that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: people put them on a pedestal for. They want someone
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: who knows intimate details of them because that makes them
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: feel loved. And it's real love. Correct. And I think
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: people really don't understand that because that is something that
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: is missing in a lot of these men's life, people's
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: life that I think are on this pedestal that people
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: are obsessed with. And they almost feel like they can't
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: live up to it. And they don't really believe that
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: in themselves or they're living off the high of that.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: But when they go home, His wife's asking him to
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: take out the trash, you know, put the kids to bed.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: He's not on a pedestal for his wife, you know.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: So I think it's, you know, people forget that, you know,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: they do crave an intimate relationship with someone, whether it's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: their wife, whether it's somebody else, to feel that feeling.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of those types of people
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: are very lonely, has been my experience. And dealing with
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: some issues that we end up seeing in the documentary, right?
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: And the documentary was really interesting because he comes out
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: from a perspective of having not spoken for two years,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: like you said. Everyone's kind of wondered what happened to him.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: And everyone kind of thought, if you think of Hillsong
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and Carl Lentz, that the scandal revolved around him and you, basically,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: or the affair. But what we've come to see is
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: that was just like a crack in the glass wall
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: or whatever. of what happened with the church because it
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: was so much bigger of an issue. And the issue
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: for him, I think, listen, men cheat all the time,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: women cheat all the time. I don't think in this
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: day and age, it's that uncommon. People can say, oh
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: my God, that's so disgusting and make so many judgments.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I don't think anyone doesn't know someone who's cheated. So
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: I think people have to stop and just relax for
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: a second. But the issue with him was that this
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: wasn't you know, what he was preaching from his church.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're not supposed to have infidelities. You're not
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: supposed to go outside your marriage. Your marriage is supposed
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: to be the thing that you love. The bottom line
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: is there are so many things that he's preaching that
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: he's not living by. So I think that was- He.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Said that to me though. Did he?
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: He did.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: He literally said to me, like, I feel hypocrite because
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I help people with divorces and I help with cheating
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: and all that stuff. And I'm sitting and I'm doing this.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: He had moments where he sat on the edge of
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: my bed and he cried and he said, I'm 41
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: and it's like, he was disappointed. He knew that, I
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: don't know, he had a feeling when he was sitting
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: there that, you know when you hear somebody that they
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: know that their life is about to crack, but they're
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: not giving you a reason. Like they know that something
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: is about to blow up, but they just cannot pinpoint it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Like it's just, he had a feeling that, There's an
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: end to this, but it's going to end really bad.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And he just said, he's like, my wife is amazing.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: And like, and I'm 41 and I feel like my
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: life is just like, like it's, it's all he's, he's
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: just took. So he's, you can tell that have a
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: lot of weight on his shoulders. Yeah. He was a
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: lot of going on where, when the last time we
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: spoke to each other for an hour after he went
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: to shock therapy in Nashville, he said he feels relief.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: You feel like it's over. This is done. Like I'm,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: now I can just lay there and just, you know,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: like just be quiet. Like he needed that, you know?
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: So speaking of that, you know, that's very interesting. So
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: after this whole thing blew up publicly, I mean, he
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: told you about it first, right? He said this is
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: going to come out or how did he?
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: He just had a feeling, like it was maybe like
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: two weeks, three weeks before that when he sat on
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: the edge of my bed and he said that. But
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: then later on when things, when Ahil Song found all
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: the images, whatever, Because he did say to me, this
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: is what he said. I'm telling you like, I feel
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: like it's a chapter one time he said to me
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: like he see himself like that he's not gonna do
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: this for too long like he's not gonna be a
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: pastor for too long or he said we're gonna give
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: ourself like maybe another five years and then something else
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: is going to happen. Oh, we're going to give ourselves
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: 10 years. So I think he was hitting the 10 years.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I think it was more of a 10 years because
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: they did do 10 years in New York or something.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: It was an amount of time that they already have done.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: And he kind of like, In the back of his head,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: it sounds like he knew he's going to resign. Right.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Or he knew he's going to have, it's going to
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: go somewhere else.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: He knew there was an end to something.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: And he did say that in documentary. So everything, I
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: feel like what he said to me, I already knew.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Like what he said now, I already knew that.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: There was parts of truth in there.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Yes. But it was hard for me to believe him
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: because he's such a good liar. It's hard. It was
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: just like, he said things that he wanted to believe
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: himself saying, you know? Yeah. I just think, like, I understand. Listen,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: when I watch his documentary, I understand the impact he
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: had on him, like, the pressure and, like, where he was.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: And as you said before, like, when you have so
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: much to show and have people following you and seeing
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: you as this powerful person, you don't know how to
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: be vulnerable. You don't know how to just... sit there
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: and be stagnant. You feel like you're constantly moving because
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: you need to please others, but you don't never please yourself.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And I think he kind of got lost in the mix.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And I did say that I really hope he saved himself.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: That's what I said in my interview in Good Morning America.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I said, I hope that he eventually heals and he
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: fixed himself. Right. Because he's really damaged. Not only because
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: of the church, because it is a choice. I'm sorry.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, You chose to be
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: part of a huge mega church that you know the
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: foundation with the abuse with Brian Houston's dad. I honestly,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: this is one of the things that upsets me the
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: most where you swear in your kids, but you were
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: part of a system that abused kids. That makes you
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: a predator too. That makes you, I don't know, like
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: if you knew that that was it and you've been
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: in the system for so long, You were supportive of that.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Do you think he knew? Did he ever talk to
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: you about it?
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think... There's no way that he'd know about that.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: He just... There's no way. Why would all of a sudden.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: And for people that are listening that don't know, explain
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about with Brian Houston.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: So Brian Houston's dad.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Brian Houston is the founder of Hillsong.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: The founder of Hillsong.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: And Brian Houston... allegedly, like, molested one of the kids
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: at the church.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: A seven-year-old.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: A seven-year-old, yeah. And then he never went to trial,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: and his father eventually passed away. And then now, after
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: what happened these past two years, Brian Houston actually is
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: going to court for his father's situation, whatever.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: He had to actually step down from the church.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Step first, and then, yeah. But thank God.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: Don't miss a minute of United Soccer League action. The
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: USL Championship and USL League One are on CBS Sports
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and ESPN platforms all season long. With additional coverage on
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: Sirius XM FC, Channel 188, and select matches available in
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: Spanish on Tudane, it's your time to take part in
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: building what's next. Visit uslchampionship.com or usll1. com for complete listings
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: find your local club and be part of what's next
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: i did why.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: I was telling myself why did i had to come
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: with my story for it to all crumble down and
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: fall for some have a little more justice like me
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: like actually because the father of the child that got
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: molested money was offered to him oh and they tried
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: to give him you know to shut him off and
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: i thought and then And I think years after he
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: did speak about it, I think there's a documentary about
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: him somewhere on YouTube. I remember that I watched it.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: It was briefly. But to think that this has all
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: had to go down years after when the father's not
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: even in the world anymore. So it just, it's pretty
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: messed up. I'm sorry. Like. I just don't see anything
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: right with it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Well, also, it's crazy because Brian Houston was the one
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: that let go of Carl, who was the biggest thing.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's why people– and he let him go,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: and he said it was for moral issues and that
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: he wasn't following the morality of the church. When here's
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: a guy who ended up having to leave the church,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I think, within a year or two later because it
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: was found out he was having infidelities, that the church
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: was allegedly corrupt with financial issues or misconduct.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: And then these issues with his father potentially, you know,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: allegedly molesting a seven-year-old who came out and spoke.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: And I think it was actually documented that Brian Houston
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: blamed that on the child. You know, the child has
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: come out saying that Brian said, this was your fault,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: you tempted my father, these kind of things.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. I didn't know about that. I'm telling
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: you because I know the abuse story. and the mistreating
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: people have been happening back in Australia. I have spoken
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: to a lovely lady, I'm not going to mention her name, that,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you know, she has spoken also in the media about
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: how she was abused. She went to the Hillsong College,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: and she was sick at some point, and they had
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: her cleaning the floors for hours, didn't care about her health. Like,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: So many awful stories where like she was dating a
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: guy in the church and they didn't like that they
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: dated each other because she wasn't... She didn't look too
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: white for them because her hair color was different. And
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: they had her breaking up with this person and having
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: this person marrying somebody else. It's very, very... Like it's
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: all about control and how they monitor and who's going
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: with who. Like it just... This is... It's a cult,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: you know, at this point.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: And they also didn't believe in being gay.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: So they made it very difficult for... I mean... I
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: think members, of course, were gay who came and worshiped
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: there and followed Carl and followed Brian. But the ultimate
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: message of the church, even though the message was supposed
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: to be come one, come all to our home, welcome home,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: they did not believe in gay marriage. They didn't believe
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: in people being gay in general. So I think that
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: took a toll on a lot of people that felt
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: like they had to put that part of them aside
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: to be part of the church.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, so talking about that topic, which I never
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: spoke about it, So there's a lot of, like, you know, bisexuals, like,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: you know, gay that used to go to the church.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: And when things start, like, you know, things happened back
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: then in, you know, like when things was exposed, I
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: know that, you know, a lot of people was hurt
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: from that. And there was one girl that basically started
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: to harass me on social media. It got to a
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: point where I had to involve the police because it's
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: like she was, you know, she was gay. And, well,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: she had also mental issues. And then to think that
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: she was, that was her leader. She loved him so much.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: She used to go to church every Sunday. She used
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: to go and sit in the front listening to him talking.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: And imagine going from having this person that, like, you
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: felt that he was supportive of your community, loves you,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: you are welcome, this is home, to vanish. And it
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: got to a place where I felt I was haunted
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: and blamed because I took this person from her pedestal,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: you know, like, And a lot of people in her position,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: especially if you, like, you feel like you're already not
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: accepted in the world, like, and then you don't get
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: accepted at a church, that takes a lot of mental, like,
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: toll on people. Of course. And I've seen, she was
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: a big thing because I was scared for my life
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: because she literally, I seen her in my neighborhood, she
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: threatening me, like, it was really scary where I needed to, like,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: I had to contact her friend and tell her, like,
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: she needs to leave me alone because, I don't know,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: eventually she's going to come to my house. So it's
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: just this one moment, like, made me realize how a
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: lot of people like her feels the same way, you know?
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: And also when I spoke, when I watched the documentary,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I have heard people talking about how, yeah, they made
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: you feel like you belong. They had actually a gay
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: person working for the church and his boyfriend. And then
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: when they went on a show, he actually was so
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: proud to say that he was part of Hill's song.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: And then Brian Houston went ahead and had a statement
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: that they don't support gay people. And he was in this,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: he claimed that he denied that somebody in the church
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: is actually gay. And he was just when, Like it
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: didn't make sense because it's just like they still trying
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: to be cool and open-minded, but then the foundation of
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: the church is very old school. It's very like what
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: the Bible is and how it needs to be because
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: it's basically being gay is being it's a sin, right?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: It's equal to death for them. Right. And I don't know.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: It just, it's crazy.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: So another thing that came out in the documentary that
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: you remind me of now in talking about this and
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: all the secrets is that Well, we knew ahead of
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: time from the papers Carl was having an affair with
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: the nanny.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Did the nanny work for him when you guys were together?
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Did you know about the nanny? He never spoke about it.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: No. So I have to be honest. It's something that
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: I knew about Leona before she even spoke to the media.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I had a source that I have spoken to that
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: knew the Lanz family. And apparently Leona's name was written
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: in the diary that Laura wrote. And she knew about it.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously nobody spoke about it before, but the
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: fact that they brought it up into... This is what's
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: crazy to me because in the documentary, she said that
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: it was mentioned in a Zoom meeting, but I'm confused
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: because Leona worked for her before this other person that
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: worked for her I know about. I know the story
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: prior before it even came out. So it was really like...
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: I knew that Leona was working for them as a nanny.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Her husband, he still works for Hillsong. Yeah. And she
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: was working for them for two years, I guess. And
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: then apparently.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: And for people that are listening that aren't familiar, her
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: husband was a pastor, I think. And she was working.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: His wife, right. And Leona, who.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Became the nanny for Carl, was also working for the
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: church in some capacity.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, right. So the church... I think the church actually
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: had her working for Carl. Because, you know, they do
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: have volunteers. So even another girl in the documentary spoke
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: about how while Leona was babysitting Carl's kids, she was
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: babysitting Leona's kids.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which sounds crazy to me.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Which is bizarre. She was giving 60, 70 hours a week.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: I'm like, first of all, like, why? I think the
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: church was actually, again, controlling what they do, where they go,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: and whatever. And I think Leona ended up having to
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: work for them.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: More than be with her own family.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Correct, yes. But what's weird to me, it's like, you know,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: because Laura said in the documentary, she did feel like
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: something is off between her and her husband. And people
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: still think that Leona was like, it was a consensual relationship,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: which I don't know if he was, because he's very
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: persuasive when it comes to what he wants. And he
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: kind of makes you feel like, He's very genuine with
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: the way he touches you. But then at the same time,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: he just makes you feel like he's just not invasive.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: You know, like, it's very interesting how he moves, you know? Right.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: So I can see him. The way he knows how
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: to persuade people on stage, he knows how to do
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: it one-on-one.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: And I was monitoring his behavior because I'm very curious
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: about people. But I don't know what is her mental stage. Like,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: if she allowed... If she was really into it, if
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: she really felt like she doesn't lose her job, you
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: don't know exactly what's happening. So I felt bad to
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: hear the Leona story on the documentary because she came
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: with her story as being abused. Why would she want
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: to put herself in the spotlight if it wasn't real? Right. Yeah.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: And again, for people that are listening, it came out
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: that Carl was having an affair with on a Zoom
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: call with everybody that he works with. And Laura, his wife,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: happened to be on the same Zoom call, which they
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: knew she was, but they didn't know, I guess, that
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: she didn't know, or maybe they did. But it came out,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: and Laura was devastated because it confirmed all her suspicions
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: that she said she was having these suspicions they were
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: having an affair, but he had denied it. So that
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: was devastating to her. She said in the documentary that
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: before that, she had found them in a, quote, unquote,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: compromising position. I don't know what that means. Correct. where
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: she pushed Carl and then she punched Leona in the face. Right.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: And then Leona continued to work them, which is crazy.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: They must have, like, convinced her that she was mistaken.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Maybe they just brainwashed her. I just don't know. I
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: feel like when you hear the stories from everyone, from
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: people who worked for the church directly or not directly,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: the power this church had or the people that worked
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: for it, it's incredible because if somebody punched me, I'm
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: never going to come back to work for you. Right.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Right, of course.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: You punch her back. I mean, the fact that she
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: used to put her pride and ego aside and came
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: back to work, that's some evil shit.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I don't really agree with this because I, as a woman...
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I want to be, she's a mom too. So I
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: feel like you guys, I'm talking about them, especially Laura
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: and Carl. You want to put her on a spotlight.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: You want to talk about it as like she was
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: okay with this, whatever. And she agreed on that. But like,
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: how about her family and her kids? You want to
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: protect your family and your kids, but she have family too. Yeah.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: And nobody tried to protect her. You just put her
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: on a spot as she's this woman that worked there
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: for two years. And she's trying to steal your husband
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: from you, but you still kept her there. Right. And
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: you want her to care of your kids.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: So I'm questioning you too. Like, what did you do
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: with that?
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: It's a really good point. And then now, you know,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: after the affair was found out, then she went on
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: to claim that it was sexual abuse. And she was coerced.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: And the power... dynamic was so difficult because he was
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: the boss correct and it's really easy to see that
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: even though it was quote-unquote consensual right she you know
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: it's not like she was forced.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: Don't miss a minute of united soccer league action the
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: usl championship and usl league one are on cbs sports
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: and espn platforms all season long with additional coverage on
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: Sirius XMFC channel 188 and select matches available in Spanish
• 43:21
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• 43:25
  Speaker 4: what's next. Visit uslchampionship.com or uslleague1. com for complete listings. Find
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: your local club and be part of what's next.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Have sex with them or whatever went on. But I
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: think at the end of the day, she felt that
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: it was in her best interest to continue a relationship
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: where she would be kicked out of the church, which
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: for many people, it's their whole lives. The way you
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: hear people talk about being in the church, being a
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: member of the church, not even working for the church,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: but it has changed their life. So I can't imagine
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: how difficult that would have been for her if she
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: felt like she was going to lose her job if
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: that relationship didn't continue.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: So we don't know the, you know, what really went
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: on behind closed doors. But at the moment, Carl is
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: denying that. I think that's a big statement that came
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: out in the documentary that he said unequivocally he did
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: not sexually abuse Leona. It was consensual. And, you know, he's,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: you know, moving forward with that statement.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: It's crazy.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to see what happens there.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Because he's like... You know her husband. Her husband worked
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: for you. I feel like there's no accountability. There is accountability,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: but it's none. It's like a semi, okay, I'm going
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: to take responsibility for what I did. And then you
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: can hear it because one minute he'll say, well, I
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: was wrong. I know I'm in fault and things. But
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: then let's blame his song. Let's blame Brian Houston. He's
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: kind of shifting everything. It's a wishy-washy. That's what I
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: noticed the whole documentary. It didn't feel like... You know,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: it just kind of like feel bad for me. I
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: look miserable. I look bad now. I went through shit.
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: Great.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Like, I just don't feel there's a genuine behind everything.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: The whole time the documentary was going on, I didn't
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: hear none of her, Laura, because she was a pastor too,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: or her husband saying, we're sorry for what we have
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: done to people that follow us. We're sorry that, you know,
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: that we led, you know, anyone wrong. Like, there's no apology. Yeah.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: There's no apology.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: And the issue was that they... let down so many
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: people who loved them, gave their whole life to them,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: believed everything they said, and then they weren't living that reality.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: I think that was what really hurt people. So do
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: you think that he is going to get back into
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: church life now? I heard that he's in Oklahoma City
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: or somewhere and he's working with a church, but he's
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: no longer in a position to manage people or get
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: up and give sermons.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, because the thing is I heard because he,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's really him, but he reached
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: out to me from a fake Instagram. So asking if
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: there's photos giving somewhere, whatever. And that was a month
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: before the documentary comes out. So I don't know if
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: it's really him. I can be anyone. I heard that
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: he did try to like something with HR. He needed
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: to make sure that he can get the job at
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: this church. And then when the documentary came out, And
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: I asked people around. They said, yeah, there's rumors that
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: he's going to work for some church. Yeah. And it
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: was a confirmation of like, okay, maybe it's really him
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: because why will he ask me so many things? Yeah.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: So do you think that he is really sorry and
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: that he's back with Laura and everything is good? Or
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: do you think that if you reached out to him,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: he would contact you?
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: He did contact me in the past two years. He did.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: He contacted me from a fake phone pretending to be
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: a reporter. And told me that he loved me then.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: He loved me now. He loved me forever. He thinks
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: what I did can be undone. I did this for
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: social media and be famous. And it was funny. I said, wow.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: You have the audacity to message me and still not
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: say sorry and want to blame me for everything. I said,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: this is so typical.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Wait, but how could he blame you? You weren't the
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: one that leaked it. They found it in his iCloud.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Because you did interviews.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Because I went to the media. Because I wanted to
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: be famous. Because I didn't lose anything. Like, I didn't
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: lose my job. I didn't, like, have my family didn't
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: want to talk to me for months. My mom disowned me. Like,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: nothing happened to me. Because this is what I'm saying.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: It's always, like, me, me, me. It's always about him
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: and what affects him and how it makes him look like.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: That's why I don't think he's genuine.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: Right. I think a lot of people, you know, don't
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: understand the difference between women who want their 15 minutes
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: of fame and go to the media because they want
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: to be famous and they're going to like get deals,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: you know, out of this. And people that go to
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: the media because they want their story to be told
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: because they're being seen in such a light. And it's
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: difficult because you're like, wait a minute, that's not what happened.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: And let me explain to you who I am because
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: I'm much bigger than this. And you have to know
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: that there's something else that went on. It's not you know, about, oh,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: I'm waiting to get on, you know, Celebrity Big Brother
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: or something.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: And I tell you, because people have seen me later
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: on doing the X on the beach, but the whole,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: only reason I decided to go to the media, even
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: though he didn't say who I was when he posted
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: that post and said he was unfaithful, is because the
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: last time we spoke on the phone, because he did
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: spoke to me multiple, while he was staying at Justice Beaver's,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: I would go up down the stairs and I can
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: hear him in the stairs talking to me while his
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: wife in the other room, like, He did care to
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: stay in touch with me until the last days before
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: they take his phone from him. So why would people
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: say he didn't care for me? He did care for me.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: He wouldn't be on the phone constantly, like talking to me,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: making sure I'm okay so he can move on with
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: his life. So I don't care what people say. I
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: know my story. But what triggered me the most, and
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: because of my personal experience in life, people don't know
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: me like that. I don't have to share it. He
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: said something after talking for an hour, saying he was
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: in Nashville, did the therapy shock, and he wanted me to,
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: I should go there and all that good stuff. And
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: then he said he was unfaithful before, but he never
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: loved anyone. He did say that to me. But the
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: last of the last, what he said was, don't worry
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: about it. Your name is being buried. Nobody will know
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: who you are. Like, don't worry, I buried your name.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Something in that form. And when I got off the
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: phone and I literally said to myself, I said, oh
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: my God, like I came from very repressed like culture.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Like I'm Muslim. I cannot be the way I am.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Like all my life I had to like, Like fight
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: with men and want to express myself. And I'm not
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: going to let any man bury me. So this is
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: what motivated me to want to talk to the media
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: because I'm not going to let anybody bury me. And
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: I think it stemmed from that, to be able to
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: speak up and to be myself and not feel like
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: it's like, okay, there's another story and I can just
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: move on with my life. This is why I did
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: what I did.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Incidentally, you brought up that you were on Good Morning
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: America and some of their shows.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach interviewed you.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: She has now been fired for her infidelity.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, shit.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Did you not know that?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't know that.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: She was having an affair with her co-anchor.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: Oh, shit.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: And they were both married. And they have both been fired.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: This is so ironic. Yeah, from their job. This happened
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: a couple months ago. You didn't know this.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: I really don't. I try not to because I didn't look.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't read about it.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: And the story that normally they're hosting a show and
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: reading stories, the story became them. And this was front
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: page news for months.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: So, and one of them I think is now getting
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: a divorce and the other one, I don't know that
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: the divorce is final, but they stayed together.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Stop. I'm going to look at it. I'm going to
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: look it up later.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting because I know that she
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: asked you kind of in a condescending way, did you
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: know he was married? Did he tell you he was married?
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: And why did you continue your behavior after finding out
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: he was married? So I thought that that was a
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: very interesting interview for her to give when at the
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: time that she's interviewing you, she was having an affair
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: or about to start a one. I would have to
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: look at the timeline. But, you know, that's really incredible.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: I just don't like the fact that, you know, when
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I did this interview, they really wanted me to say
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: sorry to his wife. Yeah. And there was an hour
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: of an interview and they just.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: … That was their goal.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was five minutes.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: To get that sound bite.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm kind of... And then on the documentary,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: I said, actually, I don't think I need to say
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: sorry because he needs to say sorry to her. Yeah. Because,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: you know, I feel like at the end of the day,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: I kept telling him, go back to your family. You
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: have a family. That's what I said. And I can...
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: And that's the crazy part. I feel... I'm so close
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: to be like, let me just post those freaking messages
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: because I'm tired of people like... But I tell myself, no,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I want to keep... I still want to respect him. Yeah.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: And not do that because I didn't share any... any
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: videos that he sends me, anything, because I wanted to
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: still respect his family, but then to think that I'm
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: the villain is really upsetting. And it's just funny that
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: I got interviewed and then... the questions that she asked
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: is just kind of like semi-questions to herself, you know?
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But also with that edge of being a
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: little bit condescending and wanting to get something out of you.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: So to feel, yeah, to feel okay with her situation. Yeah.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: And I just wanted to go back because I talked
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: about how I had met Carl before. I owned a
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: store at the time, a children's store, and somebody had
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: donated 50 backpacks to the store.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Somehow somebody mentioned, oh, you know, you should donate them
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: to a church and you should donate them to Hillsong.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: And I had never heard of it. So I knew
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: somebody that knew somebody that was a junior pastor.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: And they said, oh, you'd have to meet Carl and
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: his wife and you can donate it to them. So
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: they set it up that I brought a friend of
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: mine and her husband and we went around and we
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: saw that there was a line around the block. I
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: guess this was on 34th Street.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: And I got a text saying, come to our VIP
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: door in the back. And I felt like this looked
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: like a nightclub that was run like a church.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: Even to tell you go to the VIP, it just
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: already tells like this is not a normal church. Yeah. Yeah.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: It was crazy. I'd never seen anything like that. So
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: we go to the back door and it like bangs
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: open like you're on Broadway kind of. You know what
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I mean? Like somebody famous comes out. And first of all,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: the first thing I noticed was how good looking everybody was.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: And I mentioned it. To the couple I was with,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I said, what is going on in here?
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: This seems staged.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: It's like a fashion show.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: It's like staged. Everyone is so hip and cool.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: And all the guys we saw on the back staircase
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: that worked there that we were being introduced to really
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: quick all had skinny jeans, black jeans on, skinny tight jeans, boots,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: leather jackets. They were all over six feet tall. And
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: they literally all look like Calvin Klein models or whatever.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, God.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: Seriously.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: And you're just like, what is happening here?
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: Anyways, they put us in like the second row.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: And the band started and I look around me on
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: either side and it's even better looking people than I
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: saw when I walked in. I'm like, who are all
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: these people? I don't get it. Are they doing this
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: for us to get us to donate the backpack? Because
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: we're going to do it anyway. I just thought it
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: was odd. So then the band starts and the lights
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: go down and it's dark and it's lit so perfect
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: and everyone knows every word to the song and the
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: songs are like you're in a rock concert. Wow. And
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: my friend's husband who works on Wall Street takes out
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: his phone. I'm like, Raji, put that down. And he
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: was like, no, no, no. I'm seeing how much this
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: place is making. So for the next 45 minutes, he's
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: like thinking of all the things that they're spending money on,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: but all the ways that they're making money, how many
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: times they ask for donations or whatever. And he's whispering
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: to us, oh my God, this is such a moneymaker.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: This is incredible. This is nuts. And we're looking around,
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: people are singing and they all have their hands stretched
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: out and they're all singing and it's glory to God
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: and Jesus in Jesus's name. And I'm looking at my
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: friend Diana. I'm like, this is really insane. Like these
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: people are nuts. I will tell you, at the end
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: of that hour, Diane and I had our hands up.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: We're like, in Jesus' name, we're coming every Sunday.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: You know, and Raji, who is, you know, from Lebanon,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: you know, is not somebody who goes to church all
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: the time. He's like, this is amazing, but this is
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: a cult. There's something wrong with us.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I mean, listen, I've been in churches,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: you know. I was married before my ex-husband's family took
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: me to church, and I have two Bibles at home. And,
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: you know, and I used to read it, and he
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: used to send me verses, and like, Like, I loved
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: people that are in this spiritual place, you know? Like,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: that's a beautiful thing. But when it gets to a
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: point where, like, I even in documentary, I saw that
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: if you donate money to Hillsong, you get to meet,
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: you get to have coffee with Brian Houston. Like, what
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: is that? Like, you get bullet points. Like, you know,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: you kind of, like, it just was bizarre to me
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: that they used using this to, like, really wanted to
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: make money and grow with the money, you know? But now, like,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: it wasn't something that was helpful for somebody else. Like,
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: where is the money? Where does the money go?
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Like, did you try to build homes, schools? Yeah. Give
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: it to poor people? Like, where did the money go?
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: That's a good question because what happened after is they
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: led us up to the green room.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, shoot.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: And we saw a bunch of celebrities.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: This famous green room. Yes.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: We saw a bunch of celebrities sitting there, and Carl's there,
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: and Laura's there. And they come up to us, and
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: I explain... you know, that I had these 50 backpacks,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: not with me, but I want to donate them. And
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: he was like, oh my God, thank you so much.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: It's so amazing to meet you and all this bullshit.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: And, you know, Laura was quiet, but she was, you know,
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: she's a very, you know, plain but pretty girl. And,
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: you know, so just, you know, impressive also because she
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: stood out in the room too. But I was like, okay,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: so I'll be in touch and I'll get you the backpacks.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: And I felt really good about it. I'm like, I'm
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: donating something.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: This makes me feel good. Yeah, they allow you because
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I heard getting to the green room, it was such
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: a hassle.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: So, but listen to this.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, go for it.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: To this day, they never took the backpacks. I thought
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: that was crazy. So, we had a really hard time.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: So, they didn't send anybody to get them?
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: No, never sent anybody, never followed up on any calls.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: They just want money.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: They just want money. They didn't want the donations. And,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: you know, they kept talking about how they had all
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: these kids in different countries that needed stuff. And I
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: thought it was really– it was a red flag that
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: they never followed up on that. And that didn't seem
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: important to them.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: And so I never went back. But I, you know,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: when I left, I had that high of like, this
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: is amazing. I want to be part of this and
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: help out by donating. And then it fell– it went
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: down and down, though, because I thought something was wrong
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: by the fact that they didn't want what I had
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: to offer.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So that was– You were smart. So you already–
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: you know, catched up. Yeah. Wow. Some other people that come, like, because,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: you know, he kept saying in the documentary, we want
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: to save people, people that have lost. And I was like,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: I was giggling. I said to myself, you are such
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: a lost person yourself. Like, the lost will find a
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: lost because it's too hard for you to find yourself.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: So it's easy to find other people, right?
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Healthy people aren't looking for salvation.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: No.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: It's just people that are really looking for something. And listen,
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: that's a universal theme. We're all looking for something, right?
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: You have to be careful with where you get your information,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: where you get your love, where you get your fulfillment
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: to make sure it's real for everyone.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: So my last, you know, how I want to end
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: this is, what do you think is the most misunderstood
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: thing about you or your scenario that you kind of
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: want to, you know, make known, that you want to
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: get clear the air about?
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: That I'm not... I'm not a bad person. I didn't
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: do this from an evil place. I did this to
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: redeem myself from what happened, to set the tone, I guess,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: for women. If you feel like you're in a place
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: where you fell into it and happened to be involved,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: then you know that it wasn't right for you, but
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: then you want to do good after what happened, and
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: you go about it in a certain way, there's no
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: room to be judged. I want to feel that what
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: I have done has really come from a place of
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: helping others. whoever is going through a rough time or
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: doesn't be like, nobody hears them. It doesn't feel like
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: they have support because I know how hard it is
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: to want to speak up and feel ashamed. I don't
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: feel ashamed of what happened. I regret it. Yes. I
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: don't feel ashamed. And I'm sure you understand my point
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: of view. It's not like, There's no shame. I feel
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: like I learned so much from it. And now I
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: feel like people come to me. And it's funny. For
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: two years, I had so many people reach out to me.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: And I did mention that to you before. Men and women.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: And they were like, please give me answer did you
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: do drugs did you smoke marijuana I want to know
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: I used to go to church and give my money
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: and we're talking about guys that works in Wall Street
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: like you know with money like I felt bad I
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: couldn't answer everyone so I feel like today after two
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: years I want to be able to yeah to have
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: a voice for whoever want to talk and not be
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: scared because it's still necessary because as you said when
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: you come from a place of that church In any, like,
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: environment like that, the same style of environment, you just
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: really feel trapped and you don't have the voice. So
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: I feel like maybe this is how I want people
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: to remember me.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: And know me as. Yeah.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: And I think in speaking to you for the last hour,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: you know, I think it will come across and people
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: will hear who you are as a person.
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: I think it's okay to judge you as a person
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: based on what they hear from your mouth, but not
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: from how the media writes you up or how you've
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: been portrayed.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Because they used a lot of provocative photos of me
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: on social media. I'm kind of like, I'm not ugly.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like you're living your life in a bathing suit
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: or something.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: Literally.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: And I was kind of like, you know, I'm an artist.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm a jewelry designer. I'm a creative person.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: This is not only me. And it sucks because you
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: can be so many things. Right.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: And you can be sexual and beautiful.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: Right. And intelligent.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That doesn't mean that you are this like threat
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: to every other woman out there.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Correct. Correct.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: So I do think that is an important lesson.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: Exactly. So people don't think that we're like just looking
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: for married men, you know, out there. It's not the point.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: So I just– I don't wish for anybody to go
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: through betrayal because I was cheated on, you know, in
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: my recent relationship. And my ex is dating his girl
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: he cheated on me with. So, I mean, I go
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: through it and it's fine. I'm just– like this is
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: part of life and I'm not going to sit and
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: say I'm great and everything is beautiful and nothing bad
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: happened to me. Yes. Right. But– I mean, I just
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: want to say that I feel for what happened to
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: their family and I feel what happened to somebody who
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: got abused. I'm a person. I have feelings. Like, I care,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: you know? So I don't want to feel like I
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: did this because I'm trying to get famous. If I
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: want to be famous, I would have done more, you know?
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: And I didn't, so... Just keep it like that.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you. I think your whole story is
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: very interesting and you are interesting. So I wish you
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: the best. Oh, incidentally, what are you up to next? Like,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: what are you working on?
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: What are you doing?
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: If people want to reach out to you, how can
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: they find you?
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm on Instagram. Like right now, I'm just working
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: on my business. You know, I just, you know, work
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: more about my brand. There's nothing really like You're still
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: a jewelry designer? Yeah, I mean, I'm a jewelry designer, yeah.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, and what's the name of your company?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: It's called Wahidan, which means one in Arabic.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Wow, I love that. Okay,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: and what kind of jewelry?
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: There's like a part of the collection inspired by me
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: being Egyptian. It's a lot of gold pieces with diamonds
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: and gemstones. And then the other collection inspired by exotic bugs. Oh.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of the pretty and ugly, you know? Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Okay, can people find you on
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: your Instagram if they want to reach out?
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: And you read your messages?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Yes. And I do get like on my Instagram, my
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: business account, I mean my website, you can actually contact
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: me there. You can come to my showroom. I have
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: a showroom in Brooklyn. You can come see my stuff.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Okay, the second two parts of
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: the documentary will be out this week.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, we'll see what happens in those.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: People should watch it. I do think it's interesting. If
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: you're into cults, if you're into religion, if you're into scandals,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: sort of like a true crime mix of everything.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: I really felt for the first episode, I did cry
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: a little bit because when I heard the volunteers and
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: people that gave their life to the church and the
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: way they're like, you know, people didn't have money to
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: pay their bills and like they traveled and they were
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: part of the the ministry, like, they were doing the music.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: And it was just very heartbreaking to see, like, how
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: much time they gave.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: And then this all, like, just falling apart. And then, like,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: no recognition, no, like, love and thank you. It just,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: it didn't. And then you see all the money flowing in.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: It just really hard. This is what really, really made
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: me sad. Yeah. The other part with Carl and his wife,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't care about it. But, like, and, you know,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: but I was really sad for the people. Yeah. Mostly.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: Because I know I'm a foreigner. I came here when
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: I was 23. I built my life by myself. And
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: I know how hard it is to, to, To be here.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: New York is not a cheap place. Yeah. And they
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: say it in the documentary too. It's not easy to
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: live here. Yeah. And to take from you, from the
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: little people, it's just devastating. Right. That's one of the
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: things that I was really like hard hurt by. Yeah. Okay.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: So you and I will talk after the second two
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: episodes and we'll see how we think.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: We gotta go. Okay, cool. Okay.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Bye.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast, Misunderstood
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: with Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: show and give us a five-star rating and review if
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: you like what you hear. You can support the show
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: by joining our Patreon at patreon.com. Do you have ideas
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: for the show or guests that you want us to
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: reach out to? Please email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast at gmail.com.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and I can't wait to see
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: you next time.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: Don't miss the USL Championship Final on CBS, November 21st
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: at noon Eastern. Will the Pittsburgh Riverhounds retain their crown,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: or will new title winners emerge? Don't miss the conclusion
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: to the 2026 season, Saturday, November 21st, noon Eastern, on CBS.