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AI, Sex Work and Labor · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: And Samantha.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: And welcome to Stuff I Never Told You, a production
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. And today we are thrilled to be joined
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: by the amazing, the author, Bridget Todd. Welcome, Bridget.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know that I've ever been called, and this
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: might be the first time I've been called an author.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: How does it feel?
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Weird, good, good, you know?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: It won't be the last. Yeah, it won't be the last.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I love it. So we are very, very excited to
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: have you on. We've been covering a lot of topics
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: around AI, and we're always so grateful for you and
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: your expertise. And now you have this audio book, Love
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: at First Prompt, and we are going to share a
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: chapter from that today. Very, very exciting. But yeah, can
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: you tell if some of the listeners maybe have missed it,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: what the book is about?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Love at First Prompt, AI and the Future of Intimacy
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: is an audiobook that explores intimacy and AI, specifically people
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: who report falling in love with AI, having relationships with AI,
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: having sex with AI. I really wanted to explore that
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: topic in a more nuanced and thoughtful way because it's
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: a topic that comes up quite a bit, but I
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: feel that often when it does, it's sort of treated
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: as this look at these freak shows.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's a topic that.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Does ask a little bit more of us, particularly because
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: as unusual as it might seem, somebody having intimacy with AI,
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: tech leaders could not be clearer. That is the future
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: they envision for all of us. In the future, Mark
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Zuckerberg thinks all of us will have AI friends. Already,
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: a lot of people use AI for.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Things like emotional support. I think Pew said it.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Was one in 10 Americans already use AI for emotional support.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: When you bump that age down to under 30, it's
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: one in five. So just to level set, one in
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: 10 people in America are left-handed. So that's like a
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: lot of people. And so I think it behooves us
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: to explore this conversation a little more thoughtfully and not
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: in a way that others, people who are already there,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: if this is indeed the future tech leaders are building
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: for all of us, whether we want it or not.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and- Obviously, AI has been in the news a
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: lot lately. And I was kind of thinking about our
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: last conversation we had about kind of the sensationalist reporting
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: around it. And I remembered being, I kind of grew
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: up reading like sci-fi books where AI would be in there.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: And I just remember, I had this thought this morning
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: where I was like, it felt like society was so
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: much smarter in those books than what's going on right now.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Which is perhaps an uncharitable thought for me to have.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, leaders, not people using AI.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: But one of the things I wanted to ask you
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: is how was the experience recording the audiobook? And also,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: it was really cool that you have an interview within
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: this chapter. That's awesome.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you all can appreciate this
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: as podcasters and audio folks. There is just something that
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: is so special to me about hearing somebody explain something
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: in their own voice. And that was very important to
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: me to do in my audiobook, right? Again, we do
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: hear a lot about people who have sex with AI
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: or have relationships with AI.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: We don't often hear from them. And so in the audiobook,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: you hear.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: In their own voice, in their own words, people talking
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: about what brought them to AI relationships, what brought them
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: to wanting to have sex with AI or be intimate
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: with AI. That was really important to me to include.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: And even in this segment, you know, we're hearing from
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: folks who are researchers or experts or journalists. And even
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: for those folks, I think there's something different and special
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: about hearing them in conversation, right? Like Samantha Cole, the
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: founder of 404 Media, which is one of my favorite outlets.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: If you ever want to really feel like you are
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: in the know on technology and have your finger on
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: the pulse of what's happening now and what might be
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: happening in the future, I could not recommend subscribing to
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: 404 more highly.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: And Samantha was one of the.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: First people to really deeply look at the intersection of
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: sex and AI. Before people had the language of things
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: like deepfakes, before we were even really talking about that,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: she was there. And so Samantha Cole was somebody who
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: was deeply foundational to me being able to write this book.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: If she did not exist, I don't think the book
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: would exist, to be honest. And so even hearing from
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: her as an expert in this field, in her own voice,
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: what brings her to wanting to look at the intersection
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: of AI and sex and technology, I think was really valuable.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: And in some ways, to me, more valuable than if
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: I was just like reading her words, which are brilliant.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: on a page, hearing her personality and who she is
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: and what lights her up and what scares her and
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: what creeps her out in her voice, I think is
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: so cool. And it's just a testament to the power
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: of audio.
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: It was really interesting to hear her understanding and growth
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: of what AI was doing. And then also how sex
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: work really was kind of the beginning of how the
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: government was monitoring and or capitalizing or banning things within
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: the sex work and how that actually affected or helped
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: develop what we see with AI, especially when it comes
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: to the relationships and the growth and capitalism of it all.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: So it was a really great chapter. for you to share.
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: And I know listeners are like.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Which chapter?
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: But it's such a great moment of hearing kind of
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: the basis, like how it is really intersecting the real
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: life consequences versus what could be the future.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: And I was so glad that Sam started there. I
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: actually was surprised, right, where I remember doing this interview
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: with Sam. And this is before I had done a
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: lot of the deeper research and kind of just asking her, like,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: what's the deal with people having sex with AI? And
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: she's like, oh, honey, it does not start there. We
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: got to take it way back. And start with some
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: of the ways that marginalized communities, particularly in this situation,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: sex workers, have already been being surveilled and legislated off
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: the internet before AI ever became ubiquitous, right? And so
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: if you've ever been scrolling TikTok and saw somebody say
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: something like, oh... Shrek work instead of sex work or
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: things like that, it's because of policies on social media
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: platforms that really started with targeting sex workers. And so
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Sam really draws this like straight line between us not
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: really caring about sex workers and how they show up
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: online when this is the same community that is really
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: raising the alarm about legislation and trends and policies that
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: will soon go on to impact all of us.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: And so the way that language.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: Develops online, had we kind of listened to sex workers more,
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: we might have a better understanding of where we are
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: today in 2026.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: And so Sam argues that essentially the.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Same thing is happening with AI, that, you know, we
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: have this dynamic where sex workers continue to be legislated
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: off of the internet and At the same time, your
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: Elon Musks and your Sam Altmans are building technology to essentially,
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: they hope, replace those sex workers with their own AI.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And they get to.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Play with a completely different rulebook of how that works.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: And so the kind of laws that would apply to
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: a human sex worker on the Internet, the powers that
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: be have decided that if that sex worker is AI
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: that Elon Musk owns, it is a completely different set
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: of laws. Right. And I think that was the most
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: interesting part for me, just like the ways that this
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: is a kind of a good old fashioned labor issue,
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: not just a tech issue.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. And I think we have teased the listeners enough.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: We will have some discussion at the end. But in
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: the meantime, let's play this chapter from Love at First Prompt.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: The gender dynamics at play reveal something darker about who
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: these bots are really being sold to and what they're
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: being sold on. On Men's Lib, a subreddit described as
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: a place to build a healthier, kinder, and more inclusive masculinity,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: one poster described those ubiquitous AI sex bot advertisements and
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: how they follow him across social media.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: He writes,'.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: They' re terrifying because I struggle to look away,' An extremely
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: curvy yet skinny woman who's wearing barely anything is kneeling
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: and looking up at me, saying things like, you can
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: do anything you want with me.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I'll never say no.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: The poster describes feeling like the ad hijacks and holds
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: his attention, replacing the stress of his real life with
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: the sexy promise of the submissive fictional woman. He goes
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: on to say that having a meditation practice helps him
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: not be swayed by advertising like this. but I can't
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: even say I blame him. The ads are arresting and
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: meant to have exactly the effect he described. This messaging
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: is everywhere and reveals what some of the companies behind
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: AI are really about. When Replica AI first started, they
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: positioned themselves as being all about self-discovery. Their founding story is,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: like my own, one rooted in grief. founder, Russian journalist
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: Eugenia Koida, has said she came up with the idea
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: after using AI to help process the sudden death of
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: a close friend. After her friend died, Koida used their
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: shared messaging history to create a chatbot that replicated his
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: conversational style. Talking with the chatbot helped her remember him,
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: to reflect on her grief and process it. The idea
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: for that chatbot, with its emphasis on social presence and connection,
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: eventually became Replica. Its tagline was and still is, an
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: AI companion that cares. But they soon shifted to the
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: kind of incel-adjacent messaging the men's libredditor described seeing across
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: the web. Messaging that says, AI girlfriends will do what
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: human women won't. You can find these ads across social media,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: sometimes borrowing the familiar language of jokey memes. These companies
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: don't seem to care whether selling a vision of an always-on,
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: always-willing AI sex partner.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Harms their users or not.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: If getting people hooked on violent or antisocial sexual roleplay
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: with an AI means more money, even the companies who
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: claim they got into the AI business to sell connection
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: will happily pivot. When it comes to sexual content, AI
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: companies have shown they're willing to sell and monetize whatever
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: keeps users engaged, whether that's incel fantasies, violent scenarios, or
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: content that reinforces toxic beliefs about relationships, as long as
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: it generates revenue. But problems arise when companies treat human
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: desire like a commodity.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Take Replica.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: It allows paying users to engage in erotic roleplay, often
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: called ERP, for $ 70 a year. But some of the
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: bots were essentially sexually harassing some of the people using them,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: even people who hadn't intentionally sought sexual erotic content. Bots
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: would say things like, I want to rape you. or
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: insist they could see the naked bodies of the people
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: using them. Some bots were even propositioning minors. In February 2023,
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: the Italian Data Protection Authority ordered the company to stop
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: processing Italian users' data because of risk to minors being
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: exposed to sexualized chatbot interactions. Their statement read, Recent media reports,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: along with tests carried out on Replica, show that the
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: app carries factual risk to children. First and foremost, the
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: fact that they are served replies which are absolutely inappropriate
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: to their age. The Italian Data Protection Authority said that
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: there were no meaningful age restrictions involved to sign up
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: for Replica.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: This was serious. Replica was facing.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: More than $ 20 million in fines if they didn't address it.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: In response, Replica globally removed erotic roleplay features from its AI,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: meaning that people who had been paying to have sexy
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: chat with a chatbot lost that feature overnight. The reaction
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: was not good. The ads for Replica paint a picture
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: of people being able to have steamy chats and exchange
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: erotic selfies with a chatbot who would never reject them.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Now, there was rejection.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: When users would try to engage in erotic roleplay, the
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: bots would spit back a cold, terse reply worthy of
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Bartleby the Scrivener's, I would prefer not to. It was
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: the type of rejection they never expected to experience from
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: a chatbot. especially after advertising that promised it would never
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: say no. Because sexual connection and romantic or emotional connection
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: are often intertwined, people experienced real distress. Some had been
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: engaging with their bots for a long time. Users described
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: the loss in devastating terms. It's like losing a best friend,
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: wrote one. It's hurting like hell, wrote another. I just
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: had a loving last conversation with my replica and I'm
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: literally crying. Moderators and users on Replica's subreddit, who were
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: not affiliated with the company, even posted self-harm prevention resources
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: for each other in a response. The abrupt removal of
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: a feature users had paid for, with no warning and
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: barely any communication, felt like the ultimate betrayal. Replica did
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: eventually reinstate the ability for users to engage in ERP.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: But this kind of emotional whiplash is always going to
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: be a risk when users put their intimate eggs in
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: the basket of a for-profit company. It's what happens when
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: our base human needs and desires, things like intimacy and
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: sexual connection, are seen as commodities, ripe for selling back
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: to us for profit. Samantha Cole is the co-founder of
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: the independent tech outlet 404 Media, author of the book
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: How Sex Changed the Internet and the Internet Changed Sex,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: and has been reporting on the intersection of sex and
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: tech since before the phrase deepfakes existed. She did a
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: lot of reporting around the replica ERP story. When I
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: asked her about AI companions, she immediately reframes the conversation
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: around labor and whose voices we should be listening to.
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: I think people in general and anyone who's using the
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: Internet could learn so much and be prepared, better prepared
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: for the things that are coming down the line online.
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: And as far as legislation, if they pay attention to
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: what sex workers are going through first, because that's kind
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: of been the testing ground for a lot of these
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: really chilling pieces of legislation.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Sex workers have long been the canaries in the coal
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: mine when it comes to tech policy. The things that
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: happened to them first, censorship, deplatforming, payment processing restrictions, eventually
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: trickle down to affect everyone. When people suddenly realize they
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: can't say certain words on TikTok and start saying segs
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: instead of sex or corn instead of porn, or their
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: posts are being shadow banned for content that seems innocuous.
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: That starts with censoring sex workers. These things happen. start
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: there and then end up being a struggle for the
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: rest of us.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: The AI porn and companion bot conversation is really a
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: conversation about who gets to benefit from or profit off
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: of sexual speech online. And right now, we're seeing a
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: massive double standard play out in real time.
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: We see all these major companies. We see like Sam
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: Altman talking about doing erotic role play as part of
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: chat GPT. You see all these companies popping up saying,
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: you know, we see a market here for having sexual
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: conversations and erotic role play and things like that and
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: like sexual images being generated by AI. But at the
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: same time, then you have like actual human sex workers
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: being banned off of Instagram for like showing side boob.
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: It's really a huge double standard.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: When does a chatbot become an escort? When does sexual
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: speech cross a line into illegal speech? When you're talking
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: about AI, who's responsible?
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: These are all problems that sex workers have been talking
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: about and taking responsibility for and taking accountability for and
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: trying to create systems that create safe places for people
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: to have these erotic conversations consensually and in a way
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: that benefits humans for years. Seeing the tech world change.
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: wrestle with it as if it's a new problem is
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: really interesting. Interesting is like not even the word for it.
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: It's like fucked up.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: The same people who are kicking human sex workers off
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: platforms they need to survive are now saying they're going
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: to have AI companions and AI sex workers, and it's
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: all going to be fine because she's not real.
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: It's just like such a bizarre double standard to me.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: What's driving the double standard between how tech companies treat
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: human sex workers versus AI? According to Cole, it's about
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: cutting out human labor and funneling all the profit directly
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: to tech companies and their investors.
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: You're cutting out the humans that are getting paid in
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: that process, and all the money goes directly to the company,
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: the stakeholders, the investors in the.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Startup or whatever it is.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: It all just goes straight to those people and skips
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: the labor of real humans, which is the basis of
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: a lot of AI systems and a lot of the
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: use cases for AI in a lot of industries. But
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: we can't deal with like the middleman, so to speak,
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: of the labor force, which would be sex workers. So
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: instead of improving conditions for actual humans, they're just kind
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: of kicking the legs out from under the industry.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: The marketing makes this explicit.
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: This AI companion never says no to you. So why
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: not just go talk to her?
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Some argue that the violent sexual content in AI is
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: simply a reflection of porn culture, that the degradation we're
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: used to seeing in pornography has now infected our chatbots.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: But Cole strongly pushes back on this narrative. She points
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: out that legal, consensual porn involves paperwork, boundaries, and active
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: consent from all participants.
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: Everything that's happening in porn, which we're talking about like
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: legal porn, is consensual to the point where There's paperwork involved.
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: So I think casual sex is probably less consensual than
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: a lot of what's happening on porn sets.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: The difference with AI is that there's no one on
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: the other end to negotiate consent or rewrite a conversation
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: that's going somewhere harmful.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: And even if you're a consumer of porn and you're
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: just kind of passively watching and you're not interacting directly,
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: you can still be watching something produced by professionals and
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: understand that consent happened intentionally. there, even if the role
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: play is consensual non-consent.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: With a chatbot, there's no such understanding and no professional
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: on the other end making sure boundaries are respected. Cutting
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: out human sex workers doesn't just eliminate labor. It also
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: eliminates crucial safety mechanisms. Real human-to-human sex work, especially online,
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: is includes connection, companionship, and consensual limitations. A human sex
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: worker on the other end of a sexting conversation is
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: paying attention to what you're saying.
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: If you're going down a path that they don't think
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: is healthy or that they want to follow, they can
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: reroute the conversation and they can use their human mind
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: and their emotions and their human reasoning in a way
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: that a chatbot currently can't.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: The repercussions for not having that human safeguard can be severe.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: People fall into scary rabbit holes. We've seen mental health
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: crises related to getting too attached to chatbots. And then
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: there's the issue of bots crossing boundaries in ways that
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: human workers never would, saying consent-violating things like, I'm dreaming
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: of raping you, or insisting they could see users naked.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: Who's responsible for that? Is it the company? The user themselves?
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: The economic disparities are just as stark. Payment processors like
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Visa have spent years cracking down on sex workers, making
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: it nearly impossible for many to accept payments for their work.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: They've deplatformed individual workers and major companies, citing concerns about
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: illegal activity. But when Elon Musk's ex became a haven
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: for AI-generated CSAM and non-consensual intimate imagery through Grok, Visa
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: continued processing payments without interruption. Many writers, including yours truly,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: believe a big part of the reason is that companies
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: like Visa are simply afraid of a politically connected litigious mosque.
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: We saw like tons of CSAM coming out of Grok
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: and Visa said, whatever, rock on. They've deplatformed and debanked
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: so many individual people and also big companies. There was
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: legal activity happening all over X. So why are they
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: still allowed to process with Visa?
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: If OpenAI and other major AI companies move forward with
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: erotic content, Will they face the same payment processing restrictions
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: that have devastated human sex workers for years? Or will they,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: like X, play by their own rulebook? It'll be really
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: interesting to see after years of cracking down on consensual
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: adult sex workers, the payment processors will just carve out
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: completely different rules for them. It's the same pattern playing
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: out again. Sex workers experience the harshest restrictions first. then
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: watch as wealthy tech companies are allowed to profit from
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: the same activities that got those workers deplatformed. And in
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: the process, the humans who could make these interactions safer,
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: more consensual, and more accountable are pushed further to the margins.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: In August of 2025, 47 state attorneys general signed a
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: letter to digital payment processors like Visa, urging them to
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: take stronger action to protect the public from being harmed
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: by non-consensual intimate imagery generated by AI systems. Some payment
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: processors have taken some action by refusing to process payments
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: for some apps, but as of this writing, the approach
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: has been piecemeal at best. Payments for Grok and X
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: continue to be processed normally, despite those platforms' ongoing generation
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: and distribution of non-consensual intimate images.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: So there's so many things when I was listening to this,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: so many thoughts that I had. Just once again, fantastically done.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: So much ground was covered. And I honestly, I'm curious,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: why did you pick this specific chapter to share?
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, when we talk about AI, the thing
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: that really kind of gets me interested is the identity intersections, right?
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: How does AI intersect with race? How does it intersect
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: with gender? And I try to take a pretty even-keeled
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: look at the way that AI is showing up in
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: things like relationships and sex. Those are inherently gendered conversations.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: The place where it is difficult for me to not...
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: just be, you know, full-throated, this is bad, is the
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: way AI companions for sex are marketed toward men. And
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: even though in the book I talk about how more
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: and more women are using AI for sex, The reality
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: is that it's still very much AI built majority by
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: men for men that is simulating women. And so the
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: way that these companies market that to men, I think
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: it creates a danger for us all.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I think marketing.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: AI companions and sex bots to men in this dynamic
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: that says, oh, every woman is yours for the taking.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Every woman on the internet, you should be able to have,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: it is a reasonable expectation that you should be able
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: to sexually possess women and girls and get them to
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: do anything that you want.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I think that dynamic is.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: Permeating so many parts of the digital existence for all
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: of us. And I think whether or not you're somebody
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: who would ever have sex with AI or has ever
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: had an intimate connection with AI, I think it endangers
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: us all. When that dynamic becomes commonplace in ways that
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: are not consensual, not safe, not, you know, with boundaries
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: and all of that, it puts us all at risk
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: of gendered harm, I believe.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have to say, it didn't surprise me,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: but I didn't know about these types of ads for
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: this sort of like sex with AI, where it was,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: you know, I'll never say no, which is just a
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: very disturbing thing thing to put in an ad in
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: my opinion but um the way we see that show
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: up just i know we're about to do an episode
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: on the movie her and i have a lot of
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: thoughts about that but also like in like male insecurity
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: and male loneliness and the way that plays that it
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: does result into gendered violence and that we discuss briefly
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: like you know the kind of the fear of rejection
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: men have in turning to this kind of having sex
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: with AI and what does all of that look like?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: But I thought it was really interesting because I know
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of your book and a lot of the
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: episodes we've had lately about AI that you've been on is,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: you know, you're making the point that like emotional connections
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: with AI that people are having are forming with AI.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And so I really, I wasn't expecting this chapter, but
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: I loved that you talked about sex work and sex
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: workers and the labor aspect of it. It's just such
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: a huge conversation.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny that you say this because one of
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: the experts that I speak to in the book, this researcher, Dr.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: Kate Devlin, who was one of the first people to
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: really open up the field of academic study of the
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: intersection of AI and sex. When she first started studying
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: this at the academic level, she was first interested in
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: physical kind of humanoid sex bots. If you're old enough,
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: y'all might remember we had a real big kind of
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: panic about the idea that people would be buying these
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: life-sized AI-enabled sex bots and that that was going to
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: be a thing. Well, she started studying this early, early,
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: early on. She goes to all of these labs where
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: these bots.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Are being built.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: And she concludes it is such a niche use case
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: They're so expensive.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: They're so difficult to have in your house.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: They do exist. They are out there, but people aren't
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: really buying them. You know, this kind of panic that
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: we were led to believe that, oh, men are.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Just going to stop dating.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: You're going to buy these sex bots and mess.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: That never happened.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: Right. That was just a moral panic. But what she
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: did correctly call was that it wasn't going to be
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: the bots. It wasn't going to be the physical robots.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: it was going to be the AI bit of it,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: the emotional connection benefit, the AI-enabled voice that gets to
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: know you and asks you about your thoughts and feelings and,
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: you know, learns from what you say. She was like,
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: people aren't going to be buying these bots in math.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: People are going to be having intimate connections with the
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: AI component of these bots in math. And so she
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: really saw that earlier than anybody. And she was absolutely right.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: And so often the people that I talk to in
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: the book about their connection with AI, They told me
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: some version of the same thing, right? It's not the
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: sexual or the erotic part of it that moves me.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: It's the romance part. It's the emotional part. And that
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: really is borne out in the research that people are
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: already emotionally connecting with AI.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: As we speak, more people than you might think. And
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: so clearly, I feel that this.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I don't know, fixation on people having sex with.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: AI while spicy and salacious.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: And I love mess and, you know, examining people's sex lives.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't? The real thing is really the emotional connection.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: And in some ways, the potential for harm and manipulation
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: and privacy concerns is so much more complex when we're
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: talking about people's emotionality in their inner worlds.
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: And I just I know we've said this before, but
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: it feels like it's moving so quickly now. Like it's
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: just changing every week, every day, it feels like. So
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: what other things can listeners look forward to in your audiobook?
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: What other topics?
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, some of the topics that I find the most
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: interesting are, I think, just the way that open AI, which,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: you know, there are plenty of AI companies, but I
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: focus a lot on open AI because it is by
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: far the biggest. And it's when people talk about AI
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: bots and chatbots, they more often than not think of
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: and are talking about ChatGPT because that's the most used
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: bot by far. Just the way that these companies and
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: the people that run them have so much power already
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: and how they really see us, just regular people, as
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: just like beings to be conquered, right? It's difficult for
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: me to not immediately jump to the language of empire
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: when I think about how these people view us.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: We're not their customers. We're not even really their users.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: We are their material.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: And the ways in which our inner worlds, who we love,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: who we want to have sex with, what turns us on,
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: what we're like when we're.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Lonely or scared or.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Horny or upset or happy, how that is just more
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: fodder for them to build their empires.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: I conclude the audio.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Book with a interview with one of my favorite journalists,
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Karen Howe, author of Empire of AI. She's probably spent
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: more time listening to Sam Altman, the head of OpenAI,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: speak than anybody.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: God love her. I don't know how she does it.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Bless her heart. Yeah, I feel bad for her. But
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: something that she really said that stuck with me is
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: that Sam Altman, I mean, she didn't use the word liar.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: He is... Someone who speaks in a way that it
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: almost sounds intentionally he speaks in a way that he
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: cannot be held accountable or nailed down by what he says.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: She doesn't use this word. I would call that a liar. Right.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: But like, you know, even when asked, oh, you talked
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: about X, Y, Z feature. When is it going to
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: be available? Most people will say in a year, 10 years,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: a number, or they would say, I don't know. He'll
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: say it's going to be available at.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Some point in the future.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Like he just like really, it's like he has it
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: down pat how to avoid saying anything of substance. And
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: then when you're like, and we're giving this man so
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: much money, we are giving this man unprecedented access and
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: power at the highest seats of government and also in
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: the deepest regions of who we are as people, the
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: most intimate parts of ourselves. That's probably the thing that
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: really keeps me up at night. It's not it's not
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: weirdos having sex with AI. It's why have we given
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: this one person so much power and access to our government,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: our finances and who we are as people?
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: You know, I think about was it a year ago,
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: two years ago when it was actually fired. Remember?
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I remember.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: From OpenAI and people were in arms to the point
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: that he seemed like the victim. Everybody was rooting for him.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: It's such a weird... Turn of events were like, maybe
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: that wasn't a bad thing.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: How did that happen?
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what a messy time in tech. I will say,
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, and this is just my opinion. I think
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: that when, so he was pushed out by the board,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: came back. I believe that that really did a number
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: on him. I believe that that was like, I can
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: do whatever the heck I want. I will face no consequences.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Who would ever reign me in? I really see that
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: as a turning point in how he shows up.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: Again, like people rallied for this man saying that if
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: you push him out, I'm going to leave and I'm
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: going to leave. I remember because I have some few
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: people who were in the world of AI in different companies,
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: and they really were like backing him, thinking that he
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: would be a good champion and understand balance.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Which is wild to see today.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: You're like, oh, man. Don't know what they were fighting
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: for because now it has become a point that he
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: has become like the monarchy, like in this moment, that
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: he has become ruler somehow because he suddenly realized, like
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: you said, maybe he's untouchable because they tried and it failed.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: And to him, that was pure evidence of like, I
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: am inevitable.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I also think that moment really... said a lot about,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know, male leadership. Just like what a messy,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: dramatic thing it was.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: And I just, I hear, so being in tech, you know,
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: you always hear, women are too emotional to lead. It's like,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: women are too dramatic. What the hell do you call this?
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: Well, I also love that within your writing and the
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: way you put things forward. Like you do ask questions
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: for like, A, maybe we should be thinking it this way.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: But you absolutely pinpoint that the basis of what is
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: happening and what is wrong is the billionaires slash capitalism
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: in itself that have taken advantage of the individuals who
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: are just seeking answers, whether it be answers about their health,
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: whether it be answers about their romance, whether it be
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: answers about even like their schooling. All they're doing is
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: trying to find an avenue in a way that they
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: can do it that's not going to cost them an
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: arm and a leg because it's so hard to go
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: to a doctor. Every time you go to the doctor,
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: you get thousands of dollars in bills. So go to
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: chat GPT. Maybe it can help you by telling you
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: what's wrong with you. You know, like you can't go
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: to therapy because with therapy, you don't have $ 150 an hour.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: So go to chat GPT. Maybe they'll give you some answers.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: Like you do a really an amazing empathetic job of
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: understanding why it's being used. but also making sure that
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: we understand this is not benefiting individuals. The bad outcome
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: is outweighing the good. And I think that's something really
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: important that you're addressing.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: You put it so well. And I think it's just true.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, it's a very unsatisfying answer, but
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: we live in a country where everything is expensive and
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: things that should be commonplace, things that should be human rights,
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: things like health care, housing, out of reach when they
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: should be just part of being a human. And so
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: I think that these companies have really identified the needs that.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: People really do have.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's fair to sort of demonize people
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: for using whatever they can get to get these very
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: real needs met. Like if you need to talk to somebody,
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: if you have a healthcare question, I'm not going to
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: you know, judge you for going to chat GPT, who
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: I will judge is these companies who know exactly that
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: they're exploiting that very real need. And in my opinion,
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: making it worse, right?
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: They're making us more isolated. They are making.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: Products that are intentionally designed to become more and more
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: entwined in all of our lives.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: In these ways and become indispensable.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: And so I just worry that we're creating this dynamic
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: where when we could be pushing for a meaningful, systemic
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: or institutional change, fix we're like oh this app is
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: good enough this chatbot is good enough therapy this chatbot
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: is good enough health care if you don't have insurance
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: when really we deserve and could have something so much.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Better yes absolutely well thank you so much i know
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: you're super busy with all of the the press do
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: all those things i remember from when our book came
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: out But thank you for taking the time to be here,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: to be with us and for sharing that. Highly recommend
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: listeners that you go check it out. But Bridget, where
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: can the good listeners find you?
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Well, please check out the audiobook, Love at First Prompt,
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: AI and the Future of Intimacy. You can get it
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: at loveatfirstprompt.com or anywhere you get your audiobooks.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: And yeah, let me know what you think.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: It is a really meaty, complicated topic, and I've already
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: heard from a lot of folks their take on it,
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: and I would love to hear yours.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: So please check it out.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And if you would like to
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: contact us listeners, you can. You can email us at
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: hello at stuffwonderfully.com. You can find us on Blue Sky,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: at MomStuffPodcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff Mom
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have some
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: merchandise at Cotton Bureau. And we do have a book,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: super producer, Rima, and our executive producer, Maya.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening. Stuff Mom Never Told
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.