Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / Wisest Learners with Wallace Panlilio and Artyom Zinchenko

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Wisest Learners with Wallace Panlilio and Artyom Zinchenko · The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders

• Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Dr. Wallace Panlilio, Dr. Artyom Zinchenko, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to The Authority. Artyom Zinchenko: Thank you so much for having us here today. Hello. Ross Romano: I want to start, Wallace Panlilio: Thank you. Ross Romano: yeah, excellent. I mean, it's great to have you both here and we wanted to start by giving our listeners a sense of the two of you, kind of your expertise and, and how you came together to work on it. Maybe we'll start with Wallace and then. Go to Archim about tell us a little bit about your background and what brought you to the topics on this book and to your collaboration, Wallace Panlilio: So my background is like I have 14 years of experience in the field of educational leadership. So I ran two schools and this these schools have [00:01:00] grown with a big chunk of a big part of these schools were have been involved in homeschooling. So we have and these schools are primarily based in Southeast Asia. but also in in the Middle East. My PhD is in Educational Psychology, and the reason why I took I chose this discipline because of, of the need that I saw in in the field of education, where when I started leading schools, I wanted to find a way to equip students when it comes to how they can best learn. But a lot of the materials that are out there are just, I would say, limited. They don't, they didn't really get to meet what I was, looking for. So I decided, oh, I have to do it myself and get into the field of of educational psychology. And once I got into it, I saw that there are like so many [00:02:00] research studies that are like, that are, that have been made available. A lot of them were there's like a paywall barrier for the general public, and many of them, of course, are highly technical, so it's, it's very restrictive, and that's, by the time I got to talk to Artyom, and we we saw the need, and saw the opportunity to create something. That will empower and equip schools because a lot of the times schools, because they're just so busy, will focus first on the what and maybe even the why, like what they need to cover, like within a school year, right, you have to cover this curriculum, and you have, you don't have a lot of time, you just say go, go, go, right, trying to finish a curriculum as mandated, right, by the, by the authorities, and maybe a sprinkling of, like explaining to the students that the whys. Why these are important, but in terms of like how to best learn, that's kind of like, set aside or like just spring thing. [00:03:00] So, so important that we start off with with the how first so that they can optimize what they need to do. Ross Romano: Right. Yeah. Archim, what brings you to this topic? Artyom Zinchenko: Right, I'm a cognitive neuroscientist working here in Munich at LMU University and I have a PhD in cognitive neuroscience. and doing research in cognitive and emotional control in long term memories, spatial long term memories. And I'm a parent of two, and spend a lot of time researching what are the best learning methods, what are the best You know, educational approaches available, and as Wallace said, a lot of this research is hidden behind the paywall written for you know, non educators, non parents, basically, researchers writing for researchers. So the language statistical analysis terms. Is all quite academic and not something that an average parent would be able to comprehend and let alone implement in their life. [00:04:00] So we were thinking, why not sharing this knowledge that we've gathered going through hundreds of research papers and that's how the the project started. We started collaborating on this, on this topic. Ross Romano: Excellent. So listeners, as I mentioned in the introduction, this is Wisest Learners is the title of the book. This is the parent edition of the book. It's unlocked the secrets to your child's academic success. So there's a lot in here for parenting, right? And understanding how to support your child's education. Of course, a lot of that, that you professional educators can use as well in both of your roles as a parent and as an educator. So at the beginning of this book, you, you both define. what a wisest learner is, right? What this term means. Can you describe that and explain how you came up with that definition? Wallace Panlilio: Yeah. Wisest Learners involves certain three, three key facets of of learning. So one is to recognize that learning is a holistic. So a lot of the times, a lot of [00:05:00] times when we think of of learning, it's, it, it it loses its focus in terms of interconnectedness. of the different facets. So what do I mean by that? So sometimes people, when you go on YouTube, you think or you'll see like, Oh, learning is about like strategies, right? Oh, this strategy is so good when it comes to learning something. And sometimes you will see on YouTube, Oh, you have to have this kind of like, thinking way of thinking when it comes to learning. So you have all these different different elements, but The thing is, you need, it's so important to recognize that the need is see how everything connects to each other. And it's simple, but at the same time complex. So that's like, that's something that's so important. So just to share an example, like when I was in Melbourne recently, I my, the son of my family friend approached me when we were having dinner. And he was, he just, he just moved to [00:06:00] Melbourne. And he, he confessed to me that Uncle Wallace, I'm like so scared of my, my move here to Melbourne to study from my university. And I asked, why, why are you like so scared? Because I've failed, I've have failed so many times in in my high school, my grade school. So then, I had to talk to him about it to encourage him and to give him a better sense of self belief. So, I share that example because when it comes to being a wisest learner, it's so important to Recognize not just like the strategies, because like with that, with that child, right, no matter how much strategies you share with him, without that sense of control, that he, he knows that he's able to control his learning outcome, that he will have the capacity to overcome his doubts. So boosting that, giving him the kind of motivation and [00:07:00] emotional strength, these are essential foundations. Otherwise, it will be very it would be very difficult for him to even absorb what people are saying about a strategy. So I would, so one aspect of it is like, being holistic. The second one is, wise learners involve tools. are principles, foundations that are based on research, proven, they have to be proven. So it's not just something that's like, Oh, this one worked for this person. That's just a personal anecdote or narrative. These would have to be based on sound research studies. And the thing is that research is organic. Every day we get new research. So for us. We do not claim that the book is that the end all be all. It's something that's you know, to, to start the conversation, to start people to be aware, and that's something that we will continue to iterate over the over the next years or decades. And finally, it has to be, or why the theorists are involved in, like, [00:08:00] practical, actionable steps. This, this should not just be in the realms of theories. This would have to be something that you can apply whether you're, and we're, we're also coming with our teacher's edition. So even as an educator, something that you would have to be applicable in the classroom and the school set. / (ad here) Ross Romano: In teaching children to become wisest learners, what are the, who are the roles in that? You know, we have parents, educators, anybody else who plays a role in, in teaching them to become this type of learner? And how does that. fit together, right? You know, who's, who has the most important job in that? Are there multiple people involved? How does that all work? Artyom Zinchenko: You know, as a the proverb says is it takes a village to, to raise a child, right? So there are different roles of different people in a child's life and in, in the book that we offering now or sharing now we have a role of a parent and the role of a, of a child and. [00:09:00] There is no a single aspect from our point of view that a parent should be concentrating on or a child should be concentrating on because when you say, like, when you speak about learning, or why says learner it's not about specific learning methods or something that can get information stored in your memory the best. And that's kind of the learning part. But it's most, it could also be about motivation, about control, beliefs, about learning methods, about health management, effort management, many different aspects that all combined would constitute a wisest learner. And that's the holistic approach that Wallace was speaking about. So learning is a complex thing. Unfortunately, there is no easy way out. And in we share that parents have. things to think about, think about and to, to implement. And children have also to learn being wisest learners. Ross Romano: Yeah. [00:10:00] Excellent. So I think the book is primarily designed with the thought of. this in kids when they're young. Right. But is it necessary to start young? Are you, if you haven't started and your kids are a little older, are you still able to kind of develop them into this type of learner? Wallace Panlilio: The, the beautiful thing about this is like, even when, even if you're a grandpa, you're like, you're 95 years old and you have a, a young 75 year old. As long as the, the attitude is like, yes, wants to wants to learn. There's always a space for for you to apply and become a better learner. Because learning is really something that's lifelong, right? Lifelong learning thing. Especially nowadays, when, like, there's so much to learn, right? So, like, It's not, like, it's not limited to, like, to young young kids, right? So, the, the thing though, of course, the younger they are, the, the better, right? The better it is, [00:11:00] right? Like, when they're younger, it's just so much easier. It reminded me of my conversation with one of my good friends who went to the Olympics. And when he went to the Olympics, he was around 18, 20, around that age. And I had I'm personally, I got into open water swimming, like doing like, open water and I trained like past 10 years doing like 10 kilometer swims and then, and I was training for about 10 years and I can only reach this particular pace and they asked him out of curiosity, Oh, you're already retired after 30 years. What's your, what's your pace now? What's your speed? And he said, Oh, with 100 meters. He used to do like 50 plus seconds, but now he can do like a minute five seconds, even though he hasn't really trained. And I said, wow, that's amazing. Cause at my, at my very, very best, or if I tried so hard, even after training for 10 years. I can only do like, one, one minute, 50 seconds. So I was like, it brings to the [00:12:00] point where if you start out really, really young, you have some advantages, right? But that doesn't stop you when, even when you're like older, that that you can still adapt to something. Ross Romano: Okay. Artyom Zinchenko: That's a very good point. I fully agree here and you can always start implementing, learning these skills, these practical applications to become a wise learner, even if you're younger adults in college or you know, switching jobs. You know, older, in older ages, but there is this thing, the earlier you start, the more experience you have from younger ages, implementing these practical approaches and kind of ingraining them and automatizing them. And in our book, we speak about automaticity and turn research that once you automatize certain actions there are changes. in the brain occur where you do not even need to think about the steps in between, you don't need to think about what you should do and why, in which, in [00:13:00] which order, you do it absolutely automatically, right? And the earlier you start, we think the higher is the likelihood that you'll be a wisest learner that's You'll be successful in education and finding a job or switching jobs and all the steps along your career where you have to learn new information. Ross Romano: Do you have any particular ideas around the goal, of course. The big picture goal is to help our children develop into lifelong learners, right, so that they'll have the skills, the learning how to learn, the interest, the ability to continue learning throughout their lives, throughout their careers, changing careers, hopefully doing innovative things to have a positive impact on the world versus, of course, the for, for most parents and then educators, there's an immediate urgent focus on how they're successful [00:14:00] in school, right? And so there's a lot of things that come up, but how, how can the I guess the approach and the strategies find the balance there toward not, of course, ignoring the fact that there's current challenges right now and we want to make sure our kids are doing really well in school and in their current endeavors, but also that they're developing that really healthy mindset toward learning and what learning is and learning as a pursuit that it's about so much more than just grades and classes and what's happening today, Wallace Panlilio: Oh, it will be a good time for our team to share one of the research about academic socialization. Artyom Zinchenko: Right, indeed. So basically parents can have, can play a great role in in the academic life of, of, of kids. And research shows that basically there are three different. Approaches, parents can get involved and one of the approaches is related to spending time at home speaking about [00:15:00] education with kids how education is important, how education is beyond grades. And how one can implement the math skills one learns in school and daily life. You know, maybe providing example of some famous people who could use their knowledge to make great discoveries and speaking about the role of education, spending time should not be necessarily. kind of a dedicated time where you sit with a child and speak about this, but it could be over dinner, could be like while you're walking outside or doing something around the house. So speaking about education, the second sort of step or second possibility parents can get involved would be spending time home doing homework together or providing extra tasks, some math problems, reading with their child. Making sure they spend more time preparing for school. Well, in other words, directly involving into the [00:16:00] education process, like learning itself. And the third approach would be being involved in school activities. That is, again, not directly related to learning, not directly related to actually gaining some skills like math problems English, right, or history, but going to different events speaking to teacher, teachers, attending class sessions, and it, researchers try to investigate what of these three possible involvement types or a combination of these three would provide the best. Output in terms of kids GPA, for instance. or their willingness to learn. Ross Romano: right? Artyom Zinchenko: And it turned out that, although intuitively, it feels that direct school related involvement, meaning spending time at home, doing homework together, reading together would be the best approach because that is something that's directly related to education. Research [00:17:00] showed that Education, education related socialization, so speaking about the role of education, how one can implement the things one learns in daily life, in future careers, that plays the biggest role in students GPAs, in students learning outcomes. The second important thing was school based involvement, speaking to teachers, spending time in school and showing your child The time in school worth adults, adults attention your as a parent time spending there, right? So it's very important to show that you take it seriously. It's not you know, a child's task now to go to school and study and then you have your own more important things to do, right, as an adult. So you spend time in school and combination of the first two the ones that I've mentioned now played the strongest role. [00:18:00] On the other hand, if you were not involved in school, if you're not spending time talking to a child about the importance of education, but, put a lot of emphasis on homework, put a lot of emphasis on now do extra math tasks, read an extra two pages or 15 minutes of reading every day more on top of what you're doing. for homework, that alone was associated with negative outcomes, right? Not showing interest as an adult in school itself and school activities, not speaking about school, but forcing extra tasks would, would, would play would have a counterintuitive would have a negative, negative effect. So these potential steps that parents could take could consider you know, education beyond grades. Although the, the outcome, right, would be GPA, and this research, researcher realized that, but these would be the practical steps, I would say. Ross Romano: Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting and I, it almost seems like it sort of [00:19:00] illustrates where sometimes there's almost feels like there's a conflict between the research and what works and what feels like practical applications, right? And, and I think a lot of that also has to do with the different phases and stages that kids go through, right? When they're really young, before they start school. It's a lot easier to think about learning as exploration and everything they're doing is learning and they're picking up new things and then there's not that pressure involved and then they get in the school and they start especially now with the way that things are structured and standards and assessment, right? That pressure starts really fast and now it's okay. Learning went from being fun and everything was new to are they, are they, are they up to standard? Are they struggling? Are they advanced ? And then that you could have that almost feel that pressure to be practical. Practical, which is focus on tasks [00:20:00] and, and, and enrichment, and do more and remediation, right, and lose track of. The overall picture of the fact, okay, why, why is this important in general communicating and demonstrating and modeling that it's important through being involved, staying engaged and tuned in doesn't need to indicate that it's I don't know that it's, that it's any individual little piece of it is. life or death, right? That that school is important and it's important that you're learning and growing and developing and getting better and better. over the course of things and continuing to improve that it doesn't need to feel like, oh, if you're struggling with something now because it's important, then you're failing. But you can, I mean, I can imagine how, right, with just time constraints and with all the pressures that the system. puts on kids to feel like [00:21:00] they immediately have to be doing great at everything and from such a young age and, and the pressure that then puts on their parents where I guess it's, it's really important to understand and to continue to be reminded of what this research shows and, and how to, to execute on it because otherwise it's too easy to have good intentions, but to get into the wrong habits. Wallace Panlilio: It's a, in addition, it's a, it's an important reminder also that in, in order for parents to achieve certain goals, objectives, or or outcome, it's so important to go back to the foundation, which would be like relationship. When you have, when you as a parent have a good relationship with your. When you as a teacher, you have a good relationship with your students, it gets so much easier to be able to to achieve the goals together to help the child achieve their goal without without taking without adding [00:22:00] unnecessary difficulties or challenges. But in order to build that relationship, it's critical that there is communication. That kind of communication where it's very constructive. where the communication allows for a safe two way communication between child, parent, student, and teacher. A white man once shared with me that when his children were growing up, he would always make it a point to kneel down and speak with his children high level because he has seen how this creates a kind of safe environment. So little things like that, right? This one, when there's children, when they're kids, young kids, but as they get older, you will then have to find ways and understand like, Oh, how can I make it easy for us to have this kind of communication where the child would be willing to [00:23:00] share with me. And where I am, I am now in a position to be able to communicate as well because that kind of communication allow for the child to, to not only hear, but listen and to consider, if not follow through with what has been shared or instructed by both parents or, and teachers. Ross Romano: I think you've described some of what parents communication and the influence that has on children and their learning on parents modeling and their behavior and the way they show and demonstrate the importance of it. But what about parents emotions? How do those you know, affect, Kids. And then how can parents be mindful of managing the variety of sometimes negative emotions, whether it's frustration or disappointment anything that comes because there's of course, parents are very invested in their kids and how they're doing. And, and sometimes it [00:24:00] can be difficult to to, to stay positive, but that makes a real difference because kids pick up on that. Wallace Panlilio: The reality is that we as parents We'll make mistakes. We will, from time to time fail to do certain things the way it should or we would have wanted to. And it's part of the process. But as long as we're mindful first that that we, we are, that we would want the best for our children to start off with, that we are placed in this position to help our children, then it's a good starting point. But having said that. Along the way, there will be challenges, and those challenges include, like, even as we know what we needed to do. Like for me, I, in my PhD, I had to study parents, and I decided to study parenting. And it's something that I enjoyed, and I learned so much from it, and I know a lot of the research studies and the things [00:25:00] that I needed to do. But sometimes when I'm with, I have a 27 year old daughter and sometimes when I will, I will like, deal with my daughter, all of those like thrown out of the window and I get emotionally upset. It's like, and it's like, forget all the research studies. It's kind of like I get upset. I'd say. And then I, I will like think about, Oh, I should not have said this. I shouldn't have said that, right? So it's part of being human, right? That's just the reality, right? One, one of the things that I can share with your listeners that a big part of it is what we call cognitive restructuring. You know, understanding that before you speak, you have to like, in your mind, like understand what's What self talk is going on? What are, what, what's their own personal narrative about the situation? Because these are the things that are going to impact how parents will communicate with the children. And not even [00:26:00] verbally or articulating it. It could be something that's like non verbal. or just from the facial expression because you already have certain emotions embedded in your mind and heart so you might not be saying anything but just because your face shows how disappointed you are because of this quote unquote mistake or failure by your child then that can scar the child for life and that will affect that we're talking about safe environment that will affect that safe environment. So, You will, that will affect your relationship with your child. That will affect your relationship with your teacher, with your students, right? So, it's so important to, to be self aware of how you think, because, and what you're thinking, because that will impact how, what you're conveying to your children or students. / (ad here) Ross Romano: I don't know if, if this came up explicitly in the research or in you know, your different [00:27:00] conversations, but of course. So many of parents emotions and feelings and attitudes toward learning are going to be from their own experience as students and learners, right? And there's parents who, of course, want to do everything they possibly can to help their children become successful students and strong academically, but they may have struggled or not had a positive experience themselves, and they're trying to You know, navigate all of that, right, and do the best they can, but feel like it's kind of new because they might feel like, well, I didn't really know how to do this myself, Artyom Zinchenko: I would agree with that. And going back to what Wallace says, self awareness would be a big topic, right? Realizing that certain reactions, certain attitudes towards your child's education, your child's learning are driven by your own childhood experiences or your own school experiences. And it's important [00:28:00] to not mix it. Children are our children, right? But they're still different people. They may not have necessarily the same experiences, and this is important to realize. And we, as parents, often experience negative emotions, and it is important to use cognitive restructuring, but always, before reacting, just taking a break and thinking of what we're going to say and how we're going to say this. Because oftentimes we would regret it later on, and it's also important to realize that we are modeling, we're models for our children, and the way we react to a certain situation will or overreact to a certain situation will be modeled by our kids, and then in the long term, that would be counterproductive, and, and although immediately one can reach the The solution one, one wants, right, by providing a stronger reaction and the best approach is to focus on solutions, not on emotions. Because in the end, we would like [00:29:00] to not have a certain situation homework not being done you know, procrastination, things like that, so it should be solution oriented, so how to avoid something happening again in the future, rather than expressing one's own negative feelings at the moment. Ross Romano: you know, yeah. That makes me think, Wallace, about the opportunity and the importance of school leadership, being aware of this, right? And we talked a little bit earlier about some of that communication between schools and parents and dialogue, but, but particularly with respect to this and understanding, okay, I need to, we need to Make sure that we're demonstrating and communicating to parents about the positive experience we want to be creating for their kids and know that for some of these parents, they may have felt like they their schooling experience was different, but we really want to, we know [00:30:00] the importance of their involvement in their child's learning. We know how important the emotions they bring to it and. You know, and how that relates to their attitude, their optimism and their positivity, right? And, and feeling like their child is going to be successful on their own merits that there's things that the school leadership needs to be aware of to, to communicate to them and show them the things that they're doing to be mindful of. creating a great learning environment and being really supportive of the kids and things that may or may not. The what the parents are used to in schools. Wallace Panlilio: And you know, running schools, managing schools, this is no easy task, right? It's one of the most difficult things anyone can ever do. Because you're dealing with the, with precious with precious people who are the most precious in the eyes, in the hearts and minds of their parents, right? [00:31:00] So there, it's very sensitive in many ways but the thing is, like, in order for schools to flourish it's so important to be able to take a step back and not just focus on curriculum, not just focus on pedagogy, not that those are unimportant, those are very important, but very often those are the primary focus and what gets neglected, like, what, what kind of culture are we, are we actually reinforcing in the school, the way we talk, the way we communicate with each other, the way we communicate with the students, the way we express our care, the way Many educators would get into a school setting because they care about their students. They care about the the next generation. But how is this being manifested? And every school has a different way to approach it. But very often, [00:32:00] just because of the sheer pressure of wanting to achieve certain outcomes, it now becomes counterproductive because the, the time to reflect and process certain things gets set aside. There's no more rest and recovery, so to speak. In the same way when we work out, there's a, there's a need for a break to recover, for our muscles to recover. In the same way, like, for schools, just because of the, the overwhelming demands, right, that there's no time for that. And I think that's kind of like, that's part of the reason for, for mistakes and failures to happen. So it's so important that the school will the school leaders will allow for that breathing space so that the, the stakeholders teachers, the counselors and the rest of the team will be able to find time to, okay, are we on track to, in terms of what we want to build, might want to [00:33:00] reinforce accomplished school culture. Because otherwise you'll just go through the motions every year and everybody's like so stressed and not being able to see that, oh, we're missing out on this. We're missing out on a child who's doing his or her best, right, in trying to accomplish certain things, but not being able to do that. Because there's something happening at home, we're going to miss out on those things because of we're just so, our eyes and heart, our minds and hearts are just so focused on, on helping, on teaching the child in terms of the academic, but there's, there's a lot more that's happening outside the academics that in that will significantly impact the academic outcomes. Ross Romano: Yeah, I mean, one of one of the big stresses that's certainly prevalent in the current education system and can be caused by a variety of factors, but it's important to test anxiety, right? You know, I think that comes up again and again, and it's [00:34:00] something that. plenty of students struggle with whether or not they are otherwise succeeding in school, right? It's not just something that's correlated exclusively with students who are quote unquote struggling learners and any anybody can struggle from it. What are what are some of the causes of that? Artyom Zinchenko: So here, What we've been discussing so far about parents, parents attitude towards education and overreacting sometimes and the school stressing the academic part, all of that can create a feeling in, in children or create a fear of being rejected and not being accepted when failing a test, for instance, right? Because there's so much so such a strong emphasis on performing, on succeeding, on learning. And this fear of rejection can be overgeneralized. So, even on the test that you, on the learned material, that material that a child knows, just being stressed about this can lead to a [00:35:00] situation when people get the freeze. They cannot think, they cannot write, losing time, losing points. And then once they fail once, that builds a negative experience, that points to, right, so, these negative experiences in the past. would fuel this test anxiety in the future being afraid to repeat it again, not being able to think clearly, not being able to write and being stuck somewhere. And combination of these two things fear of you know, past failures and fear of being rejected. can lead to catastrophic thinking. So you're thinking I've failed, I've failed in the past, I'll fail again, and I'll get kicked out of school, I'll not find a job. So children, especially in grade three to five, approximately, where there's testing starts to be implemented in school more often, that sort of stage in life where they, they often have this catastrophic thinking [00:36:00] and that leads to you know, exaggerated anxiety during tests. Because a bit of anxiety is good. It was shown that as being slightly you know, hyped or slightly aroused is a good thing, right? So you can think clearly, maybe you could react better, but at certain points you reach a level where it's unhealthy anymore. It's maybe stopping you more than helping you perform. And, um, Exactly. So finally, there are also children who have particular difficulty performing timed tests. So they would have had a better performance if the time was unlimited or they had, there were not, there was not so much emphasis on the time, but if you have 25 minutes, Here are the 15 points you have to solve in these moments. Children can also have experienced difficulties and to [00:37:00] think about test anxiety, to implement some steps in advance, to not kind of reach to the know, not get there, not get to test anxiety would be to first of all, build healthy parent child relationships, not put parental attitudes to a child. independence of academic performance. So, not creating a feeling that I will only love you if you get a good grade, if you pass a test. So, that should be unconditional, right? So, children would not experience this fear of being rejected. A very, very strong feeling in childhood. And another point, if you see that your child may experience some test anxiety, a good approach is do some tests you know, trial tests at home in a calm atmosphere doing it several times, trying to test a child so that one would get [00:38:00] used to this. Pressure gradually, so you will not be put into a stressful test situation all of a sudden, once, but you know that you've done it in the past, you've done it at home you did it gradually, and over time you build this feeling of managing your anxiety, managing this this time pressure. Ross Romano: What, what about are there parts of that around whether the communication, the strategies, I guess, I'm thinking particularly of ways for parents, and this would apply to teachers as well, but for, for students who are capable learners, capable test takers, but maybe have some stress around tests, to feel like there's a way to win, so to speak, right? Because I could see how, for a child who's expected to be a good student, how there's. Only negative outcomes from taking the test. Either I do well on the test and okay, well that's what everybody expected, [00:39:00] so status quo, or I struggle on it and either I feel bad because I didn't do as well as I should have. Or I feel like, well maybe I'm not as smart as I thought I was, right? But there's not, there's not a way to get a good result and to have it really be a plus, right? It's all about just trying to maintain the status quo and, and you know, that's not a good cycle for kids to feel like, okay it's all, it's, it's all negative incentives, right? It's trying to avoid something bad happening versus feeling like something good can really happen. Artyom Zinchenko: Right, and maybe a good approach would be also here to use. View tests as a way to assess where you are currently and where, in which direction you should progress. Maybe you pay more attention to particular topics, particular way to solve mathematical equations. And that way, I would say it's a healthier way because you don't use tests to [00:40:00] define who you are based on taste outcomes, your personality, you being a failure, or you being a good student, but rather just helping you, guiding you, showing you areas where you need more work, but importantly, as you refer to maintaining status quo, advanced good performing students may experience test anxiety as well. And Wallace shared a nice experience from his Headmaster years where high performing students would, would also experience a very high levels of test anxiety because they would need to, every time prove to themselves, to their peers, to their parents and teachers. That they are good students. They're high performing students. There is no possibility to fail and that should be also considered and thought about that it's not only the potentially underperforming students who need help with test anxiety, who, who where [00:41:00] test anxiety should be considered, but also high performing students too. Ross Romano: Right. I mean, if you're getting, if you get a perfect score on one test, then you have, there's only one direction to go next time. And the reality is when put into perspective let's say you you get an A on one math test and an A on the next one and a B on the next one or something. It, it doesn't mean you're going backwards because they're different. It's different content. It's different assessments, right? So it's, it's about. Your level of current mastery of that particular content that was on that and how you perform that day and all these things. And there's ways that through I think a real emphasis and focus on communication and dialogue that kids can be made to. To feel that way, right? But the typical way of looking at it doesn't really account for that. It's, it's you know, really feeling like everything is only it's always on one trajectory up or down, or are you, [00:42:00] right? Are you, are you doing the best every single time? And You know, almost nobody does their best every time, no matter what their best is. I mean, everybody has days where they perform really well, days where they don't do as well. And that shouldn't create a fixed, concrete conception of one's identity. There's always ways to do better. And also, even if you get a perfect score on a test, it doesn't mean you know everything there is to know, right? And that's part of healthy attitudes toward learning that trying to achieve mastery and, and lifelong learning, there's always more to know. Wallace Panlilio: Very true. Another consideration there is it's important for, for the student to recognize that this is a journey learning journey, and it's in as much as we are after destination, the journey is, I would say, even more critical. Thank you. Because you take care of the journey, the destination will take care of itself. [00:43:00] And a big part of the fun is really in the journey. With all the challenges, with all the difficulties that one might encounter. Whatever it is, right? But once you're able to hurdle that, then it will make the final outcome so much sweeter. For parents In order to make this journey, learning journey for the, for the child and for teachers to make this journey for the child to be more more effective, Arjun mentioned about you know, kind of, communication and this communi that communication between parents and children would have to be, um, positive. And. A big part of that is to have the right kind of expectations, because if the expectations are unnecessarily stringent, like, for example, a parent might say, The only way you can stay in this household [00:44:00] that you are discerning, Dinchenko, Pandilio whatever that is, right, Jones, is if you get A grades all the time, right? So I can just imagine the kind of pressure that the child will experience. But if the expectation is that, that we expect to work hard to give it, to give it your best a hundred, 1% effort, if you if you manage it towards that rather than okay, you, you can you'll only, it'll only be only then that conveys a different kind of message. So it's very important that parents. And also teachers should, even before they speak with a child, remember we talked about self talk and cognitive restructuring, to talk to themselves first and understand, okay, what is it really that they believe in? And if you think that the only way to succeed is all A's, then before you talk to your child, even if you're trying to talk to the child that, oh, effort, [00:45:00] prioritize the effort, but it will come out because in your heart and mind, it's about the A's, right? Ross Romano: As we're kind of, getting close to the end of our conversation here, I'm, I'm curious what you or, or what the book would say to parents who feel like, I really want to do this, but I'm just, I'm just so busy. What's what's the message to, to those who are kind of feeling overwhelmed and busy and pulled in a lot of directions and yet you know, know that maybe they need to make some time to, to focus on some of these strategies. Wallace Panlilio: If there's one thing that I would encourage parents, it's like, at the end of the day, parents love their children. You would do your do everything for your children, right? The thing though is, there's life. You have to work, you have to do certain things you have to, you have to mind certain things. Maybe other family members. So, even if you have the best intentions, there might be constraints. However, There's one thing [00:46:00] that every parent should always bear in mind and that is to create that kind of relationship where it's safe to communicate back and forth. If you don't have that kind of safe relationship foundation, it's going to be very difficult to help your child or to influence your child and bring him to bring your child to the next level. Because what will happen is your child will shut down. and might be hearing you but will not be listening to you. So creating the kind of like safe environment between you and your child, teacher, with the students, it's critical. And that can only happen when you are engaged, involved, and constantly communicating and listening to have the kind of relationship where that's going to happen. It's not easy, for sure. You know, you [00:47:00] can ask your child how, how are you today? You know, like, and I'm fine and that's it, right? So that's kind of like, and especially for teenagers, right? So there will be those challenges, but if there's anything that you would want to constantly learn to do to be able to create that kind of safe environment through open and dynamic communication with your children and students. Artyom Zinchenko: In elementary and middle school, parents spend somewhere between two to three hours on average per day with their children. Parents have work, they're really busy, and it means that the time that they have, this limited time that they have per day to spend with their kids should be used wisely. Ross Romano: Right. Artyom Zinchenko: And we would, I would suggest that it is really important to consider many different facets of If we now speak about education, about helping your child learn better, be a healthier more successful person, one should consider all [00:48:00] these points education related, but also communication related. Modeling, Feedback, Self Control, many, many aspects should be considered, even if you're busy because you haven't particularly because you're busy and you don't have any time to improve or to change things you say over time or change things you do. So. I would say not because you have yeah, not, I would say that because, particularly because you have limited time, you would need to be considering these things even more. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the realities of modern life is our time is so limited that it, it really creates a need to, to be intentional about that time to plan ahead, to think about how to make the best use of it and what's going to have. the most impact. And certainly the this dynamic of parenting and supporting [00:49:00] our kids education is no exception because that time flies. So listeners, you can find the book Wisest Learners on Amazon, and you can find it elsewhere if you'd like to get your books elsewhere. Please do also subscribe to the Authority for more author interviews like this one. We have more coming every week here as we get into yet another new year. Dr. Wallace Pantaleo and Dr. Artyom Zinchenko. Thanks so much for being here on the Authority. Artyom Zinchenko: Thank you once again for having us here. Wallace Panlilio: Thank you, Ross.