Latest / Think Twice Show / The Philosophy of Feminism ft Jameela Jamil

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The Philosophy of Feminism ft Jameela Jamil · Think Twice Show

0:00
We use a ladder to fix a problem we can't reach.
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A light bulb, a leak. A ladder exists because there's
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a job to be done at the top. We treat philosophy as the same.
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We use them to fix problems we haven't yet solved.
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Inequality, injustice, freedom. Ideas become the ladder we use
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when the reality we want is out of reach.
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But here's the issue with a ladder.
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You know when the problem is fixed, you change the bulb, you
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climb down with philosophy. What does fixed even look like?
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Where's the top? Where's the moment you get to
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climb down? Because every time you climb,
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another ladder appears above you.
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Another problem, another climb. So it makes you wonder, if we
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build philosophies to fix society, what if society can't
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be fixed? The day we look at feminism,
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every generation has been told that this change will fix it.
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The vote, education, economic freedom, reproductive rights,
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representation, and each one truly changed things, but none
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of them finished the job. Maybe we need to rethink the
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ladder. Maybe it was never even about
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completing the job. Maybe the job is the job.
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The constant rejection of misogyny, the ongoing refusal of
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patriarchy, and the perpetual fight for equality.
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Not because there's a final point to reach, but because it's
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the right thing to do. Welcome to Victoria Twas this is
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your favourite show? Favourite show?
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My name is Benz. My name's Amda.
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And today we have a wonderful, brilliant, intelligent and
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fabulous guest. My name is Jamila Jamil.
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On to the first question, can feminism achieve its goal in a
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world built on a higher up? Not without men.
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So feminism is something that is inclusive of men, that wants men
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to be a part of it, but women alone cannot achieve that.
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It would. It would require all of us
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considering ourselves feminists. And I mean, even the word
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feminist can sometimes be a bit problematic because it's really
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just about basic equality for everyone.
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So it shouldn't have a specific name, just as feminism.
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It's really just are you a cunt or are you not a cunt?
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What about you 2? I would actually say no.
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I think hierarchy is kind of baked into the problem of
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patriarchy. Like you can't have a patriarchy
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without the underclass of women, you can't.
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In the same way you can't have capitalism without the
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underclass of of of the exploited worker.
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And I think the two define each other, so if you have hierarchy,
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you can't achieve the goal of feminism.
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Absolutely. In that case I misunderstood the
3:02
question. What I mean is we can overthrow
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all of this together. I don't mean we can exist within
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hierarchy. I apologise.
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All I meant is that I believe we can get to a place of equality,
3:13
but only if men were to understand that the patriarchy
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was never actually designed to oppress women.
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Women's oppression was a byproduct.
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Patriarchy's design was to oppress men.
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And if we could really understand that and investigate
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that and unpack it together, we could actually deconstruct this
3:30
together and take the hierarchy down with us.
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I think we'll unpack that in just a second.
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I want to hear Benz's answer 1st and then we'll go back to that.
3:38
What do you think? I think it can achieve its goal
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in a world built on hierarchy. The way I've sort of looked at
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it is if you look at human history, the course of human
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history, hierarchy has existed and hierarchy only doesn't
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really exist in like small groups.
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So any, if you, if you think of society, we think of anything
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large, even corporations, you have some sense of hierarchy.
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Because if we, if we think of power, if power is say evenly
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distributed amongst thousands or millions or even hundreds, it's
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very difficult for things to actually happen.
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Bureaucracy takes over. So essentially what happens is
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power gets distilled into a a smaller group of people.
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When you're talking about society, the result is going to
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be a hierarchy. And I think feminism can still
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achieve it's goal of equality in that hierarchy if we just have
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like equal inequality essentially.
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But isn't it contradictory the idea of having equality with
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hierarchy? Well the the issue is if women
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are seen as the underclass to men, right?
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But what I'm suggesting is a hierarchy in which both men and
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women are the underclass to men and women, if that makes sense.
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It does, but then doesn't that mean certain men and women at
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the top oppressing the men and the women at the bottom in some
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way? Or having more access or having
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more privilege. Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Like, like I'm. I'm not.
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I'm not. And I guess on extension to
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that, women will be oppressed within that system and feminism
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won't ever achieve this goal. Well, feminism's goal is a
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quality. Right.
5:13
Yeah, feminism's. Goal.
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So like I'm basically saying like.
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I would define. I would be slightly different.
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I want to be careful of how I phrase this, but I'm just what
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you're. Kind of saying is that there's
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never not going to be hierarchy because within primate cultures
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we have hierarchy. Like it's just part of nature.
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Exactly so like to say to say that OK, it's.
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Utopian. Precisely, or it has to achieve
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it outside of hierarchy means it's never going to achieve its
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goal. Yeah, which to me just it's not
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the answer I wanted as well. So like when I actually explored
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the question, I understand my bias probably led me to saying
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yes as well and I tried to find answers to support.
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But the question also sort of boxes you in to accepting that
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hierarchy could be destroyed. And if you're if you don't
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believe hierarchy can fundamentally be destroyed, then
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it makes sense I just your answer.
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I always think the best predictor of future events are
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past events, and past events suggests that like we haven't
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had a society without. Hierarchy.
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But past events also took place in the time where we didn't have
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this access to information, we didn't have this access to each
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other and to hear each other all around the world.
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I do. That's the Third Point.
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I do believe that I may, I fear I may be an optimist in that
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even though these are dark times and the Internet and social
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media have been responsible for unimaginable evil.
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I also think it is a tool for how we would be sitting in a
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room together now, which would never have happened without the
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Internet, without us becoming aware of each other, listening
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to each other's point of view, going, oh, that's interesting.
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I agree with that. I don't agree with that.
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I'd like to explore that further with you, human to human in a
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room with a cup of tea. A. 100 percent, 100% I I agree
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100%. I think the the chain of events
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that has LED us here from maybe like an anthropological point of
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view, bullshit word is, is, is kind of like a chain of events
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that started with the oppression of women.
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So it's difficult for us to be like, oh, use that as a body of
7:04
evidence to suggest that some subjugation always has to
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happen. I think if we look at cultures
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outside of this culture, there are examples of matriarchal
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societies that refuse power across their communities.
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Now I do get what you're saying that maybe these matriarchies
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don't have millions of people in it across like multiple
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countries, but. They haven't been overthrowed
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because if you watch the men who have interviewed, they're chill,
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they're happy, they're having a lovely time.
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They're allowed positions within government, but there's they're
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violence isn't used to enforce the hierarchy and violence isn't
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used to enforce the system. I'm always sceptical though
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about using examples of communities that we don't
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actually participate in because we often, from being an outsider
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of any community, you generally see what that community wants
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you to see in a sense. So like.
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Oh, we are pigeon. Analysis of that you're.
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Pigeonholing us, bro. No, no, no.
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I'm just saying, I, I just want, I just want that to be a side
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note to that, you know? What I mean, I think it's
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important. So do you.
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Think that are you saying? What are you saying the men are
8:03
like, yes, I love it here. No, I'm I'm not saying that is
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not a good place. It's not a good.
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Place. But what I'm saying is, I mean
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there's a sign though that is worth mentioning.
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Fair, fair, but if we've grown up in a Western patriarchy, then
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we'll cook to what you're saying we can't like.
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No, what I'm, I'm just saying like that's what I said earlier,
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but I was just basically saying like the quality of oppression.
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You know what I mean? Like the same like the it's,
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it's, it's the same across genders.
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That's that's basically what I'm saying.
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I'm saying it is possible. What I've gotten to is that now
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one of my main focuses towards equality is not currently to
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focus just on the oppression of women, but to focus on the
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oppression of men. And I think that it is more and
8:52
more apparent to me, the more educated I've become, that men
8:55
are the fundamental target of patriarchy.
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I think I disagree. I think you did mention it
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before, but. Well, I'd love to get into it
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with you. I would love to know why you
9:04
disagree, and I'd also love to explain why I think that.
9:07
I think men are certainly oppressed in a patriarchy, but
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if we just take a step back and ask who's got the worst of it,
9:15
it is women on the whole, is it not?
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Even before we get into the details and like, start talking
9:21
about the the the minutiae, isn't it women who have bear the
9:25
brunt of the patriarchy rather? Than I believe, I believe women
9:29
bear a brunt of the patriarchy, but I also believe men bear a
9:32
brunt of the patriarchy that has just become so normalised that
9:36
we no longer recognise it. And I think one of the ways in
9:38
which, and this is not a men's rights activists, I'm coming at
9:41
this purely from a place of, of what I see in the news.
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For example, we don't count the amount of men who die in war.
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We talk always like oh it's women and children who've been
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hurt and nobody cares until you mention women and children were
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hurt. 41,000 women and children. We don't really.
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We've been taught to disregard the amount of boys bodies.
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We don't talk about how many men do unbelievably dangerous jobs
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who are exploited by wealthy billionaires at the top.
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Like older men who aren't going to go out and have to do the
10:13
dog's body work. They send young men into the
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mines and older men into the mines.
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They send young men to go and forage for diamonds in areas
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that are very dangerous to extract diamonds.
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Where the fuck do we need diamonds?
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Who needs diamonds really? Like all these exploitative
10:28
industries that don't need to exist are created by men, older
10:32
men who then go and find often working class or minority men to
10:36
go down and do the dog's body, work for them, risk their lives,
10:39
give their lives up. And then we are taught to
10:41
overlook that, as if that is not significant.
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So all the dangerous jobs in the world are largely done by men,
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and how young the men who we send to war are is absolutely
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terrifying to me. And the repression that
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patriarchy forces of boys to not be allowed to express their
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emotions. Like, we know now that there's
11:03
cortisol, the stress hormone in the tears of children.
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So little boys, little girls are encouraged to let that out.
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Little boys are not encouraged to let that out.
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So then all these boys have all this stress in their system that
11:16
hasn't been released. And now it turns into, of
11:18
course, destructive energy. And then that becomes a label of
11:21
like, wow, boys will be boys. Boys are destructive.
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They're not really armed with a guide on how to become a man.
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They're just told how not to become a woman.
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And so there's no leadership and I think patriarchy, I think
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patriarchy's design is, is knowing that man will not look
11:40
up if man has an opportunity to look down.
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So you look at working class or blue collar people, right?
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It's easier to keep them distracted by thinking about
11:50
migrants who are much more of a minority or trans people who are
11:55
nought point fucking 5% of the country.
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It's like, OK, well, at least I'm not them, they're lower than
12:00
me. And then you're not thinking
12:01
about all the fucking people higher up than you.
12:04
We keep men distracted by thinking, oh, actually, it's
12:07
women who are submissive. It's women who we need to hold
12:09
down. And yet if women were naturally
12:12
submissive, they would have fucking submitted by now.
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God knows we have taken every measure to make women just obey.
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And they just keep like the Terminator getting back up and
12:23
fighting again and again and again.
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If anything, patriarchy has conditioned men to be more
12:29
submissive because men will fall in line.
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Men will fall in line. Men will.
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The men do exhibit discipline, much more so than women.
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Like, you know, I've seen countless manosphere podcasts
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talking about how we just cannot train these hoes.
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Men will. Men will sign up into armies
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more willingly than women when they're not conscripted.
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They will sign up to be part of ICE.
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The men in Sudan are taking orders to rape women and shove
12:57
razor blades up those women and leave messages inside their
13:01
bodies. Like, this is not something that
13:03
all those men get off on. They've been indoctrinated from
13:05
when they're 8-9 years old, when they've been kidnapped and did
13:08
like turned into these depraved monsters who take orders from
13:12
another man up top. So it's actually men who have
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exhibited more passivity and more submissiveness than women,
13:19
and violence hasn't needed to be enforced as much upon men to
13:23
make them submit, whereas it takes so much violence, both
13:27
emotional, physical, and psychological, upon women to
13:29
even try to get them to submit. And these bitches keep getting
13:32
back up. So I believe patriarchy
13:36
convinces men that actually women are below and we must keep
13:38
women down to give them something to do whilst actually
13:41
some rich minority at the top. The real 1% we need to worry
13:45
about are they're sending men out to go and put their bodies
13:48
and their lives and their mental health on the line.
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If you survive war or you survive this dangerous job,
13:54
you're left with PTSD for the rest of your life.
13:57
But who cares? She's just a man.
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That's what I think. I I appreciate that point of.
14:01
View I agree, women still have, like almost all I talk about is
14:05
how oppressed women are. But I do think that if men could
14:09
wake up to how undervalued and degraded their lives are, they
14:13
might fight with us against a system that is mutually
14:16
destroying our world. Yeah.
14:17
And I think I think that's that's definitely where we agree
14:19
both men and women are subjugated by the patriarchy in
14:22
different ways. I think you touched on a lot of
14:24
the, the ways there, like through economics, like you're
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talking about boys being sent to war young.
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A lot of those boys don't have a lot of economic prospects at
14:34
home, right? They've been alienated at home
14:36
in, in the labour force and they've been trained, socialised
14:40
in a way that sort of glorifies violence.
14:44
They've been sort of taught that domination is the way that you
14:48
gain social capital and, and currency with, with your, your
14:52
fellow men and that funnels them down that route to, to them
14:57
going to the army. Husband comes home with PTSD.
15:00
You know, someone has to do the emotional labour of, you know,
15:04
rehabilitating him and that's usually his wife. 100%.
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Right. It's the women in his life.
15:09
And I think obviously it's both of these things are intertwined.
15:13
It's not just like men are doing one thing and being subjugated
15:16
in one way and women are being subjugated completely.
15:19
Different they're also the recipients of the violence
15:21
that's caused by the PTSD yeah. All I'm saying is that I don't
15:24
believe women were the actual target.
15:26
I think men were the target of patriarchy and women are now
15:30
having to bear the brunt of it, as you say.
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But it's men's lives they're going to put on the frontline
15:35
and all these. And there's all this talk now
15:37
again, of conscription across Europe, and it's mostly boys.
15:40
It's voluntary for girls, but mandated for boys to have to
15:44
answer these questions. So again, I think we're we're
15:48
aggressively agreeing. I just believe the target is
15:50
men. And the byproduct has been
15:52
massively devastating the lives of women.
15:55
Fair. I I'm going to try to say that
15:57
word one more time. Anthropological point of view.
16:00
From that point of view, I would say that the start of patriarchy
16:03
was to control women though, like the point of patriarchy
16:07
initially was to control women and their bodies.
16:10
And every PR. You think that's PRI?
16:12
Think that's their PRI? Think that's I.
16:14
It makes a lot of sense though, even if you just take out like
16:17
whether we can factually prove that a. 100%.
16:19
It makes a lot of common sense, doesn't.
16:21
It, of course it does. Of course it does.
16:23
I absolutely see where you're coming.
16:24
From yeah. And like, even from an economic
16:26
point of view, if you think about especially like we go back
16:30
1000 years and a few 100 years, what's the, the most valuable
16:34
thing you can have is human labour.
16:37
And the, the window to create in humans is a woman's body.
16:41
So it makes a lot of sense how powerful men would want to
16:44
create a system that allowed them to control women's bodies
16:47
100% and use that as currency, right?
16:49
I agree 100%. It is a system designed also to
16:53
impact women. But these wars have been going
16:56
on since as far back as history will and it has been
17:00
predominantly men on the front lines of those wars and teenage
17:04
boys on the front lines of those wars.
17:06
I will all, I think I will. I'm I'm prepared to die at least
17:09
near the hill. Perhaps not on the hill, but
17:13
close adjacent to the hill of the fact that it's a way to make
17:18
men feel like they're not being submissive and they're not the
17:23
underdog, that they're the alpha of their little unit.
17:26
But really they're not the alpha of society because the alpha of
17:29
society is the one who's sitting in an office.
17:31
Send like mapping out where you lot are going to go and risk
17:34
your lives and shed your blood and share the blood of your
17:36
friends. I think controlling men and
17:38
controlling labour is is the main objective.
17:42
I hear that. It's a big old conspiracy thing,
17:45
but I enjoy that about. Myself, you made a compelling
17:48
argument. You made a compelling argument
17:50
to me for that. I'm not sure I'm there yet.
17:51
I just think there's like a a disconnect between that worker
17:58
that you're talking about and that person sitting in the
18:00
office. What I'm here to argue is sort
18:02
of it's the dream that capitalists sort of sell to the
18:06
working class. And as a result, when you do
18:09
that work, you then think I'm that one in the million that
18:12
will basically have success from patriarchy.
18:16
So I can't imagine that it's those men that it was created
18:22
for. Listen, I'm as I get older, the
18:24
more I observe is that the more is that femininity does seem to
18:30
be more resistant and rebellious naturally.
18:33
And the reason I say this is that all the most resilient and
18:36
resistant men, the one who go on to be the best leaders and the
18:39
best innovators are all quite feminine.
18:42
And I mean that in no, I, I mean that as a compliment.
18:45
They're in touch with their feminine side.
18:46
I don't mean they're effeminate, I mean they are in touch with
18:49
their feminine side. They have the strength to resist
18:52
the patriarchal system. That I'm not allowed to have
18:54
feelings, I'm not allowed to have friends, I'm not allowed to
18:56
care about my family. I'm not allowed to enjoy my
18:58
life. Because could it be a sorry,
19:01
sorry to interject, no go on. But to go to your to your
19:04
earlier point, could it be that you're seeing femininity as
19:08
rebellious and resilient because it is more oppressed, it has
19:12
more to be resilient against? I disagree.
19:15
There's so much for men to be resilient against.
19:17
Look how much the world is fucking them.
19:19
Look at their suicide rates. Like 60% of the gun deaths in
19:22
America are men turning the gun on themselves.
19:25
Look at the depression. Look at the the.
19:27
I think I believe men are more raped than women in every
19:32
country because of gaol. Because of what's happening in
19:34
gaol, it's more men in gaol. Obviously that's because men are
19:36
also responsible for more violent crime and and all sorts
19:39
of terrible things. But more men are killed than
19:42
women every single year. We don't really talk about those
19:44
statistics like the world is fucking dangerous for men
19:48
because of other men. Which is why I talk about this
19:51
because I'm coming at this from an angle of you're all getting
19:53
fucked by the patriarchy and all anyone talks about men and women
19:57
is how the patriarchy is designed to fuck us.
20:00
We're all getting fucked. And I'm coming here being like,
20:02
we have the same let's figure this out together because you're
20:06
the ones who are going to get sent to war, not us.
20:10
Yeah, I I just, I just struggle because I does it make sense
20:13
though? Does it?
20:14
But does it does it make sense? Listen.
20:16
It's a it's an of course, but it's an undercooked theory.
20:20
But it's where my evil, it's where my feminism is currently
20:24
moving towards, is unpacking the system beyond where I've been
20:27
taught to and going right. But what's behind the final
20:31
door? Because something doesn't add up
20:33
here about how fucking miserable men are.
20:37
And it's not just because of women.
20:39
There have been a long lineage of miserable men.
20:40
And also we rely upon historically lonely, angry,
20:44
disenfranchised young men to be willing to sign up for war.
20:48
It's men who are more susceptible to patriotism than
20:50
women, men who are more susceptible to fighting for
20:53
their religion and spreading their religion than women.
20:56
There is. There is something I believe
20:59
there that we have not yet really uncovered because we're
21:01
so busy competing for who is more oppressed, which I'm kind
21:05
of doing here, but in the in the opposite way of what would be
21:10
expected of me. I'm saying that rather than
21:13
point fingers at each other the way the working class do it,
21:17
like minorities or you know, people do it, trans people,
21:20
let's all for a second entertain the idea that this was set up by
21:25
elites and powerful people against all of us and they've
21:29
successfully turned US against each other, which we know.
21:31
Divide and conquer, tried and tested.
21:34
Let's all look up together for a second and figure out if this,
21:38
the patriarchal system benefits men more than it benefits women
21:42
in many ways. But it also does cause more male
21:45
death, in my opinion, but also statistically, not in my
21:49
opinion. Statistically, it causes more
21:51
death. And what I find all the time is
21:53
that whenever I talk about men's violence against women, which is
21:55
something I talk about a lot, men pop up in my comments being
21:58
like, yeah, well, men are also hurt by women.
22:00
And it's like, how sad that the only time you've brought this up
22:04
is when women have created a space to talk about the violence
22:06
we experienced from men. That's the only time you decide
22:10
to pipe up and like chip in, like to the conversation, like
22:15
how, where has your voice been otherwise?
22:17
Why don't you not ever get together and talk about it
22:20
together about men's violence against men.
22:23
There's also women's violence against men, but predominantly
22:25
it's men's violence against men and it's men's violence against
22:27
little boys. So one day I made this post on
22:29
Instagram and I was like, all right, men are statistically
22:32
more likely to be killed and sexually assaulted by other men.
22:35
Men, tell me what happened to you.
22:38
I'm creating a space where you can tell me.
22:41
And it got so much travel and so many comments.
22:45
And the stories were so harrowing about men who'd been
22:47
raped at the age of 11 by like, their dad or their uncle or
22:50
their dad's friend, like people who'd been beaten, beaten by
22:53
friends, beaten as adults, beaten in gay relationships.
22:56
And the stories were horrific. And I was like, this is the
22:58
first time a lot of these men were saying that they'd ever
23:00
said this out loud. And how sad that we don't
23:03
organise a space. But there's no emphasis, there's
23:06
no branding behind men's liberation.
23:10
There's all this branding behind feminism, or there was before
23:14
recently, but there's no real move in media or anywhere.
23:19
If anything, we're kind of offended when men start to try
23:22
and talk about what's going on. But but we fund heavily the
23:26
conversation when men are against women.
23:29
That's very branded. I would say that.
23:32
Because I'd really like to know why you disagree and I would
23:34
genuinely I will learn a lot from it.
23:36
What I was talking about earlier is like men believe they could
23:38
win the patriarchy lottery, basically, right?
23:41
And that's part of the reason why I don't think men want to
23:44
discuss that, because essentially the moment you start
23:48
discussing that is the moment you lose your ticket to the
23:52
patriarchy lottery, essentially. But wouldn't it be amazing if
23:56
they realised you never can win the hierarchy patriarchal
24:00
lottery? You never can.
24:01
It's something you're pretty much always born into.
24:04
Or you have the most luck and craziest odds of all time.
24:08
Wouldn't it be unbelievable for men to realise this game is
24:12
rigged against all of us? It is rigged.
24:15
It's just more rigged against women.
24:17
Yeah, it is rigged. But in a system of domination
24:21
like patriarchy, you know you can always subjugate your wife.
24:24
You might not win in the grand game of patriarchy, but you can
24:27
win in the micro game. But.
24:29
That's what I was saying earlier, is that they teach you
24:31
you're the alpha of your home, right?
24:32
So that you don't focus on the fact that you're not actually
24:34
the alpha of your life you think you are.
24:36
But we're all working within a broken system.
24:39
But this is the bellows point, though, that, you know, if, if
24:42
men are to accept what you're saying, they would have to
24:46
relinquish this power that they have over at least the women in
24:49
their own lives. And they disenfranchise
24:51
themselves in the game of patriarchy.
24:54
And that might be why it's so difficult for a lot of men to
24:57
accept. Yeah, actually I'm a feminist
25:00
and I'm working arm in arm with women to to break down
25:03
patriarchy because they have vested interest in patriarchy.
25:06
I I do understand where where we differ on this, but I think
25:10
what's happening potentially between us is that you are
25:13
rightfully focused on the symptom, which I also deeply
25:16
care about in literally for talking about.
25:19
But I'm obsessed that with the fact that something's wrong and
25:23
we have not actually found the cause.
25:25
But it's insecure older men in the manosphere who have been
25:28
outgrown by women who are terrified other young men will
25:32
also go on to outgrow them. We're trying to keep them down
25:35
by saying no, no, no, you stay down here with us.
25:37
Let's just keep the women further down, hold their head
25:40
underwater. And then you can still be above
25:43
ground rather than you are proficient, you can grow, you
25:47
can change, do. You.
25:48
See within that do you see? Do you not see like how there's
25:53
always has to be an underclass, even if the, the, the manosphere
25:57
character that, that, that you're talking about, he's,
26:00
he's, he's just telling boys to try to dominate in, in their
26:04
like personal lives, right? Not just like on a, on a macro
26:07
scale, he's talking about dominating a woman within the
26:09
romantic relationship, for example.
26:11
It's still women there at the bottom 100%.
26:13
It's always going to be women at the bottom.
26:15
But I'm I'm not requiring for men not to feel sorry about
26:18
what's happening for women. I'm not telling men not to care
26:21
about ending rape culture ending.
26:22
I need them to fight alongside us.
26:25
Yeah, but the motivator for that were for them to realise that
26:28
they are also enslaved within a system that they can't see
26:31
because they've been taught to focus on enslaving us.
26:33
So they can't see that they too are slaves within a system that
26:36
doesn't give a shit whether they live or die as long as they make
26:38
money for elite. Yeah, I do hear that.
26:41
I guess as much as men and women have the same goal, there are
26:46
obviously differences in the way that they are subjugated, right.
26:49
So of. Course.
26:51
I guess when we're talking about feminism or like women's rights,
26:56
the moment we bring men into it, it does feel like we are kind
27:00
of. Recentering Men.
27:02
Yeah, we're diluting the message and the the sort of theoretical
27:06
purity of feminism in a way that actually just does patriarchy.
27:10
Again, we're re centering men, which was always the problem.
27:14
With enough sorry, can I? Just yeah, go on.
27:20
The second question is, should the feminists seek solidarity
27:24
with men? And I feel like we've that's.
27:26
Literally what I'm doing. So yeah, yeah.
27:28
So I just thought I'd mention that now, so.
27:31
That is what I'm doing. And solidarity is something that
27:33
can only be achieved when you do often have the same common
27:37
enemy. Not always, but when someone
27:39
stands with you, it's easier for them to do so.
27:42
When you really look at the statistics and go, oh, hang on a
27:45
minute, this doesn't benefit either of us really in the long
27:47
gulf. And if men were at least happy,
27:50
if member at least happy, given all this obligation, then it
27:54
could be sensible to presume that there's no reason to any of
27:57
this. But men have been miserable.
27:59
Men have been taking their lives long before women had bank
28:02
accounts. They've been miserable for a
28:05
long time. We don't ever bring up class
28:07
within this conversation or economic subjugation of everyone
28:10
and how that contributes. But I don't know.
28:13
I just, I personally, I'm not trying to centre men, but I'm
28:16
trying to help men understand that you are not doing us a
28:20
service. Because I think there feels like
28:22
this like obligation to like fucking go and protect them and
28:25
help them and help end rape culture for them.
28:28
And it's like, no, you're also getting raped more often
28:32
statistically than us, and you're not reporting it even as
28:36
much as we do. And we don't report it enough.
28:38
So imagine how many little boys and men are getting assaulted.
28:42
We have no idea because they feel too embarrassed or ashamed
28:45
to talk about it. So this we're we're trying to
28:48
say you're not doing us a favour.
28:50
We're saying do yourselves A favour and liberate yourself
28:53
alongside us because otherwise it feels like we're asking
28:57
something for you and then we owe you something and actually.
29:00
But but men do owe women something.
29:03
Owe women men. Absolutely do owe us something,
29:05
but that's not what the motivator should.
29:08
Be maybe, and that's also. In fact, it's not sure what the
29:10
motivation should be. The motivation the motivator is
29:13
not going to be if men just feel like they have to.
29:17
Otherwise white people would have fucking sorted out racism
29:19
by now. It makes.
29:20
Sense that white people I don't want.
29:22
I also don't want a white person to now come and dominate my
29:28
struggle for racial equality. But they don't have to dominate
29:31
your struggle. I'm saying these two things can
29:33
coexist at the same time. But they but I wouldn't put it
29:36
on a even like keel. Like, for example, if I, you
29:40
know, put together a group and my thing was to end racism.
29:44
I don't. Want it?
29:45
All lives matter. I don't want 50% white voices
29:49
and 50% voice of colour. I don't think there's a
29:51
comparison necessarily. I was only bringing up the fact
29:54
that like if obligation to undo the the damage that you've done
29:59
was enough. No, you're right.
30:00
Do the right thing. White people wouldn't.
30:02
I'm no way comparing white people and black people or brown
30:04
people with men and women, that's a whole different thing.
30:07
No, no, no. But I guess I'm, I'm trying to
30:09
explain my frame of thinking. Right?
30:10
Yeah. Which is that if we agree that
30:13
the underclass is women in a sense, like me as a man, for
30:18
example, I just need to listen to women.
30:20
It's not for me to say, oh, I'm going to involve myself in
30:23
feminism because it benefits me as a man because that is a
30:28
perverse way to engage with feminism.
30:31
Like I benefit from the patriarchy already and I as a
30:35
duty to my fellow humans who are women and identify as women, I
30:40
am obligated. I'd see myself as obligated 100%
30:42
to undue patriarchy, whether that benefits me or not.
30:45
I think probably the parallel I would draw from my argument is
30:48
that when working class men, those working class men who
30:52
recognise that migrants are not the reason they don't have any
30:54
money and not the reason they can't heat their houses and feed
30:57
their fucking children. And actually, some of them are
30:59
starting to turn together up top the government that's actually
31:04
responsible for their subjugation and their
31:06
destruction of their society. And they realise it's not an
31:09
Indian bloke's got a Curry shop down the road who didn't steal
31:12
his job because he could never make Curry as well.
31:14
Let's just be honest. My boyfriend does make a mean
31:17
Curry for a white man, but still.
31:21
But but I think I'm drawing that conclusion of like, I don't
31:25
think working class people are centering themselves in the
31:28
struggle of migrants when they do that.
31:30
I think they're just going, oh, hang on a minute.
31:32
Why am I fighting you when we should both together be fighting
31:36
the government? Does that make sense?
31:38
It does is that I don't then think it's going either or.
31:41
I think numbers are added and I think there's strength in
31:44
numbers whenever radical exclusion.
31:46
Isn't that like what we're crossing both class conflict,
31:50
which is the worker versus the employer or the the asset class
31:56
versus race like race relations the migrant has it's.
32:01
Not always. Race relations relations.
32:03
Yeah, I guess. I guess I'm not going to speak
32:05
for migrants, but like I would imagine racism is a large issue
32:09
for migrants in a way that it isn't for the white working
32:11
class. But the white working class
32:13
shouldn't then involve themselves in race like.
32:16
But I don't think I'm saying, but I'm not saying men should
32:18
come and sit in feminist meetings.
32:20
I'm saying men should be gathering together and working
32:24
to dismantle the mother fuckers who earn most of the money from
32:27
men's, from men's separate oppression and men's mental
32:30
health disorders. I'm not saying they should be
32:32
coming to the fucking, I don't know, like the women's Mark, are
32:35
you? Basically saying they're.
32:37
Allies. I'm saying we're allies.
32:38
I'm saying we have the same enemy, and just the way that
32:41
poor white people have the same enemy as most of the migrants.
32:45
Let's come together and figure out who actually took everyone's
32:48
money. I agree.
32:50
I agree. I I do.
32:51
I do feel it's important to mention, though, that there is
32:54
more to feminism than just the patriarchy.
32:57
Yeah. Intersectional feminism looks at
32:59
Yeah. Because when you were talking
33:01
the the thing that kept coming to me was test point that you
33:05
can't have a group of men involved themselves in feminism
33:10
in that way, even though they align on that particular issue,
33:14
which is a major issue. Don't get me wrong, it's a major
33:16
issue, but there are so many experiences that then go
33:20
undeserved as a result of them being part of that group, if you
33:23
get what I mean. So that's why when we landed on
33:25
Allies, I think that was like the perfect place to to sort of
33:28
land. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
33:29
And and obviously, you know, me and Ben's are men.
33:31
So on some level we, we we need to take a back seat to like
33:37
women in the women's issues, right.
33:40
And I guess I come with the attitude to something like
33:42
feminism, which is if women are saying that men involving
33:47
themselves in that way detract from what they want, then that's
33:51
what it is. Because the point of feminism is
33:53
to primarily serve women who are impacted by the patriarchy.
33:57
So we need to listen to them, right?
34:00
And when online women talk about like men sort of engaging in
34:07
feminism in a way that benefits them or because it benefits
34:10
them, I'm listening to them in a sense and reflecting what what I
34:14
see from them online. I see what you're saying.
34:16
All right, on to the last segment, which is.
34:21
Been cheery, hasn't it, and not gone at all the way any of us
34:26
expected to. But also, by the way, can I just
34:31
say that isn't it so lovely to be able to have men and women in
34:34
a room sit and disagree with each other with such like
34:38
kindness and benefit of the doubt?
34:40
Like, I have so much respect for you.
34:43
I'm so excited to hear why I'm wrong or what you think.
34:46
Want to like, investigate it with you.
34:49
I want to build the world with men.
34:51
I don't want to come here and shout at you and shout at me
34:54
like I want us to to. They know how strong we would be
34:57
if everyone was doing this. We'd have this shit sorted in 10
35:01
years. It's as long as they stop this
35:04
from happening that we're never going to make any fucking
35:06
progress. Sorry, what was your next
35:08
question? I was just remarking what a nice
35:10
time I'm at. I was just going to say to to
35:14
agree with you. I do appreciate that you looking
35:17
at the sort of dominant narrative of feminism and
35:21
patriarchy in through a critical lens, right?
35:24
Because again, on some level I'm, I'm trying to sit here and
35:28
listen and take what you're saying on board again, because I
35:31
don't see myself as a man as necessarily like I want to
35:35
listen. Basically, I want to take a
35:36
backseat and listen to what women are telling me about the
35:39
patriarchy and feminism. And I think these conversations
35:42
are are beautiful for that. And can you separate yourself
35:45
from like, let's separate the conversation about women for a
35:48
second? Do you see yourself as a victim
35:50
of patriarchy? Absolutely.
35:52
Do you see yourself as a victim? Of patriarchy 100%.
35:55
Yeah. Like do you think it's also
35:57
different as a black male just because as a black male?
36:01
Intersectionally. One intersectionally, but you
36:04
understand you have been a victim of the system.
36:07
So like to accept that you are a victim of another system isn't
36:10
like mind blowing. It's not mind blowing for us
36:14
like. But it is uncomfortable for some
36:16
people. Yeah, yeah, I guess so.
36:19
But that's if they, if they didn't accept that as a black
36:21
male, you were, you were a victim of the system to begin
36:25
with. Like that's how you were born.
36:26
So like for us, for you to accept that as a, as another
36:29
thing I don't, I don't think is a big thing for, for me at
36:32
least. I wouldn't want to speak for
36:33
test, but for me at least. I, I do think accepting it is
36:36
one thing, but then for me to go back through my life and
36:39
actually pick up moments of my childhood and my adolescence
36:43
where I was socially conditioned a certain way and I behaved a
36:46
certain way in response to that conditioning.
36:49
It is illuminating. And it's not something that's
36:51
like done like I still look back and think about that habits and
36:56
behaviours I have now that maybe started when I was like 8 or 10.
37:01
Do you know what I mean? It's a constant process, like
37:04
the way I show up in a relationship, for example.
37:06
Yes, on some level I'm basically just doing what my dad done
37:10
because I, I adored him and I thought he was a great role
37:13
model for me. And you know, he, he, he loved
37:15
my mum, he loved my family and I, and I, I want to be like him.
37:19
But on some level there's also that social conditioning of the
37:23
gender role, you know, being the leader and like being the head
37:26
of the household and stuff like that.
37:28
I in my mind, I have conditioned it out of my like conscious
37:32
thinking, but sure in, in my subconscious, there's certain
37:35
things I do, I catch myself doing.
37:37
I'm like, why am I doing that? Why am I behaving that way?
37:39
Why am I like trying to control too much or like trying to, you
37:46
know, the day and the way the day goes is like my idea and has
37:51
to go this way. Part of that conditioning is
37:55
started when I was a kid. It started when I was watching
37:57
Hollywood movies and like TV shows.
38:00
You've been indoctrinated. 100% and as much as I try and unwind
38:03
that, it's an ongoing process, it's not like something that's
38:05
finished. Because it's somewhat
38:06
instinctual, like yeah, it's how you.
38:08
How do you know though, what's instinctual versus what?
38:10
How do you know what's nature versus nurture?
38:12
When girls and boys and you know everyone is indoctrinated is
38:17
like soaked from birth into this culture.
38:21
It's so hard to know other than when we studied like maybe
38:25
primates, but then you have to take evolutions.
38:28
Instinctual, but habitual. Habitual.
38:31
Yeah, that's probably the. Word for sure.
38:32
Yeah, I actually spoke. I asked my girlfriend probably
38:35
like a year ago now. I was like, do you feel like I
38:38
perform masculinity? And I quite like.
38:40
I was bare nervous to ask that question.
38:42
I don't know why because it felt like I was.
38:44
I was walking. Into like a very question to
38:46
ask, you know what I mean? That's.
38:50
Why I was nervous? I was like, am I?
38:52
Am I ruining dinner? Am I just making the mood a
38:55
little bit, a little bit neg? And she thought about it for a
38:58
bit, and she was like, yeah, I guess you do sometimes, like
39:02
when you try and do a little too much to the point where, like, I
39:06
overbear on her agency on how the day's going to go or like
39:10
picking something from the shop or like making a decision about
39:13
how we're going to get to this move, stuff like that.
39:16
She was like, yeah, on some level, like, I feel like you're
39:18
performing that role a little bit sometimes.
39:21
And that made me think like, I can actually just relax.
39:25
Why am I just doing all this is. My fucking exact point.
39:29
Yeah. Why are men and boys not talk?
39:32
The joy. They're just fucking relaxing.
39:34
Yeah. Why are they not telling each
39:36
other friends? Like I got something out of you
39:37
before we got on. Like I got something out of you
39:40
that you had never heard him talk about before.
39:43
Because a woman is going to dig in and investigate and and bring
39:48
out the sensitivity or the openness of a man.
39:51
Yeah. Men can have that together.
39:53
There isn't a male loneliness epidemic in every culture.
39:56
The Middle East does not have the same male loneliness
39:59
epidemic when you look at them like even you walk through like
40:01
a heavily Middle Eastern or Arab like part of London even like
40:06
it's 10:00 at night. They're not out drinking in a
40:08
pub, they're sitting in a pastry shop.
40:11
Having eaten cake and like smoking shisha together, facing
40:14
each other, arms around each other, affection calling each
40:18
other habibi, like the brotherhood, like there's
40:21
there's all this like love that's going on between them.
40:24
Like, like men are the centre of men's worlds there.
40:27
And obviously there's a lot of like problematic misogyny and
40:30
patriarchy and all sorts of shit that's going on there.
40:33
But I'm just talking about the fact that there is a world in
40:36
which men do not have to be so lonely where they can know about
40:38
each other. We'll still probably want you.
40:41
We're definitely not going to want you if you take away our
40:44
rights because then you look like a fucking pussy who can't
40:48
compete. Like we, we want someone who can
40:51
actually step up to the plate. Like I look up to my boyfriend,
40:55
he's a real man. A lot of people think because
40:57
I'm such a gobby out there feminist that I must be with
41:00
some cock simp. But.
41:05
Actually, he's the manliest man I know.
41:08
He's a he's. Sensitive.
41:11
He's sensitive. He can talk about how sad he is
41:13
in his music, but he's also a fucking man.
41:16
And he's the one I look up to and he's the one that I know
41:18
will protect me if I need protecting from another fucking
41:21
man. But he's like my he's a guide
41:23
for me. And then sometimes I'm a died
41:26
for him and he's exponentially happier than he was 10 years ago
41:30
or 11 years ago before we met because he's got a partner now.
41:33
Having a partner rather than some sheep to follow your lead
41:37
has made him happier. It makes men happier when
41:40
they're not so insecure. He's not insecure that if I
41:43
match him, I'll leave. I won't.
41:45
I just love him, and I love him more for the fact that he's an
41:48
interesting, grounded, rounded, cultured man who's got interests
41:52
beyond just slaving for money, so he can provide for me while I
41:55
sit at home and online shop. And, and, and the crazy thing is
41:58
that, you know, in the, in the, in the story I told you about
42:01
my, my girlfriend when I asked her that question, it never
42:05
occurred to me that what I was doing would be taking away her
42:09
agency. She also might be performing
42:11
femininity when she when she succumbed absolutely to go push.
42:16
Yeah, she is. I mean, she, she, she told me
42:19
the same. I'm performing femininity
42:20
without realising it all the time.
42:22
I was asked on a podcast the other day, it's like name 2
42:24
traits that you love about men. I can't.
42:26
Not because there aren't so many things I love about men.
42:28
Because there's no two traits that are specific to men that I
42:31
wouldn't also see in women. Strength, integrity, like
42:34
protectiveness. I see all that shit in the women
42:36
that I know, especially the mums anyway.
42:39
Are you not going to let me get to the last segment or what?
42:41
I'm so. Sorry, is anyone going to let me
42:42
get there? I.
42:44
Think I'm just too excited. OK.
42:47
All right. This is the final segment.
42:50
It's basically a dilemma. And I read a dilemma and you
42:52
basically it's like what would you do in this situation?
42:54
All right, there are two basketball leagues.
43:01
The men makes billions, the staff get 50% of the revenue,
43:06
the women makes hundreds of millions and the players get
43:09
25%. The women's league is heavily
43:12
subsidised by the men's league. Paying them more sounds the most
43:16
fair, but something will have to give.
43:19
A salaries double that could affect the budgets, which impact
43:23
the marketing facilities or league growth.
43:25
The women's players could win now, but the system could affect
43:28
them long term. Would you pay the women or not?
43:31
Would I pay the women from the men?
43:33
Yeah, essentially. I should definitely have read
43:36
this. Before also, you know, I didn't.
43:39
See that long one? I just saw the little short
43:42
questions. I oh God, that's a very long
43:46
complicated. Stay thinking, let me give it to
43:48
Ted. Riddle, yeah.
43:49
I would pay the women. I would pay even if it does
43:52
jeopardise the men's league, I would I would pay the women.
43:55
Especially if we look at the real life context of women's
43:58
sports leagues versus men's sports leagues.
44:00
The leagues have definitely been their growth has been crippled
44:03
and Hanford by sexism in those sports.
44:08
So it's it's only right to use the men's league, which has the
44:13
advantage of that sexism and has been allowed to boom and grow in
44:16
that environment, to subsidise the women's league now to
44:19
basically rectify past injustices.
44:23
That's how I feel about it. So sort of like reparations,
44:25
more or less. What do you think?
44:28
It's actually really tough, yeah.
44:30
Because I think like if, if, if I was like ACEO of this company
44:36
or like you ran this organisation, I, I think I would
44:40
struggle to do it. But I'm not.
44:42
So as a supporter, I always sit there and say, yeah, pay the
44:45
women and I sort of drive that sort of resistance movement.
44:49
But I think it's really difficult if you were actually
44:52
in charge and have to do that and make that decision.
44:56
What do you think the difficulty is like are you talking about is
44:59
it an internal difficulty or you'll get push back from your
45:02
quality? No, it's an economic difficulty,
45:04
OK. It's it's more of an economic
45:06
problem than it is a like morally you would want to give
45:09
it to them. Like, why wouldn't you?
45:11
But it's not free. Where do the workers stand if
45:14
you give some of the men's money to the women?
45:18
Where do the men's workers stand like the.
45:20
Men's and the women's workers stand.
45:22
So what will happen is the men's will pretty much be fine for
45:26
now, but because there's obviously a finite pot, the
45:30
men's league makes a load of money, like a lot of money.
45:33
The women's league, basically, it's already subsidised in that
45:36
league, but the women aren't paid a lot of money.
45:39
And how do we get this women a lot more money.
45:43
So you would have to take more money from the men's league,
45:46
which essentially means that we don't know.
45:50
Unless you're a good economist, you don't know the long term
45:52
impact of that, but you know this isn't a sustainable format.
45:56
I think the reason I find this is a tricky question is also
46:00
because, and I think I see a lot of people raise this when we
46:03
talk about men's and women's sports in particular, it's the
46:06
hardest subject to have this conversation about because also
46:09
not a not as many women show up for women's sports as men show
46:14
up to watch men's sports, right? And there's also not a lot of
46:17
women watching men's sports either.
46:19
There are some, but predominantly it's men watching
46:23
men's sports. And, you know, even with female
46:26
superhero projects, including one that I was in and you know,
46:30
like I was in Marvel, like and you see there's a lot of like
46:32
all female Marvel movies. Yes, it is a problem that the
46:36
men don't go and see those movies because men are, you
46:39
know, seem to have some sort of incapability of like not all
46:42
men, but like there is a traditional idea that men can't
46:45
imagine the world through a woman's land.
46:46
So men aren't showing up to those movies, but women also
46:49
aren't showing up to those movies.
46:51
It wasn't like all booked up with girls bums in the seats.
46:55
So it, it is tricky to, we can't have this conversation without
46:59
them. And not to be like the most like
47:01
pedantic person on earth, but it's difficult to have this
47:05
conversation about sports because in the long term, maybe,
47:07
maybe a few times, of course, the men should subsidise the
47:10
women. And I absolutely agree about the
47:11
sexism and the reparations. However, we also have to be
47:14
realistic about the fact that on a long term scale, we also need
47:17
to get women to support women's sports more.
47:20
Probably quite. So to me.
47:21
Basically, do you know what I mean?
47:22
Like, we like, that's such a conversation that shouldn't be
47:24
uncomfortable to have. As uncomfortable as it is.
47:26
It is. Yeah.
47:27
But it should be had because I, you know, I believe in.
47:29
And that goes along with my feminism.
47:31
My feminism is like equality. It's like we just have this
47:33
conversation. It's like, yeah, men are not
47:35
showing up for women's sports. And when I see a little boy
47:37
cheering for women's football, I fucking love it so much.
47:40
I'm like, oh, that's so sick. That's so healthy.
47:43
But I'm also not seeing any little girls.
47:45
Not any. I'm not seeing as many little
47:47
girls as we would need to also make that a thriving industry.
47:50
It's not just not a thriving industry because of sexism.
47:53
It's also because for whatever reason, we do not guide girls
47:56
towards towards sports maybe, but there aren't that enough
48:00
women supporting women's sports as well.
48:03
So that's something that needs to be really lead amongst all of
48:05
us. Why?
48:06
Why the the athletes are incredible, the games are
48:08
incredible. There's no reason we shouldn't
48:10
be watching it. I guess there's a disadvantage.
48:12
There's kind of baked in, hence why I want to talk about this
48:16
sort of my my style is kind of like a reparation style solution
48:20
to the problem. It's because it's like we
48:22
started a race. Let's just imagine we started a.
48:24
Race 100% a hundred years ago. And you know you've got.
48:28
Women have been held back, like with their hair dragged back.
48:30
For like 75 years, you can't even run.
48:33
And you know, your competitor in a sense, in a sense you're
48:38
competing for like the eyes of the football fans, right?
48:41
You know, he's got a 75 year head start.
48:44
Not only does it make it difficult for the women to catch
48:46
up in terms of like, yeah, I agree.
48:48
The actual product of the game, it also means and like I feel
48:53
this when I watch women's sports is that the women's game in a
48:58
sense like whether it's systemic or is done by people within the
49:03
women's game, the men's like format over bears on the women's
49:08
format. So the women's format is it
49:10
becomes like. Feels we get more advertising,
49:13
more marketing. It becomes a baby version of the
49:15
men's game. That's basically, I think, a
49:18
major problem. Yeah, and it would.
49:19
So it would never be as good as the men's game.
49:22
What as big the game, the game that we watch.
49:25
So like football, for example, or take rugby or the sport that
49:28
we watch was made for men. The sport, the way it's
49:32
designed, the way the. Whole world is made for men.
49:34
Seatbelts are still made for men.
49:35
Do you know what I mean? Is it But to get the best sport
49:39
for women to play, you should change the sport slightly.
49:43
I, I genuinely believe that you should change the sport slightly
49:45
because it's the, they're basically playing a version of a
49:49
game that wasn't built to, to show their strengths and they
49:55
have strengths. Do you get what I mean?
49:56
And. I mean, maybe, but I've also
49:57
seen some games where it feels as exciting and entertaining and
50:01
as impressive. Of course there's jeopardy
50:02
involved, like. Same as like tennis, like
50:04
watching the Williams sisters play is just ridiculous.
50:07
But even. Even if you do take tennis, for
50:10
example, tennis, don't women do not play the same game as the
50:14
man? Do you get what I mean?
50:16
Like like tennis is actually probably a good example of that.
50:19
And I just think we should maybe shift the games just slightly to
50:23
benefit women more personally. Or just change the sport
50:26
altogether. Yeah, yeah.
50:29
And everyone plays a different sport.
50:30
Yeah or yeah, everyone plays. You know what I mean?
50:32
Totally, but also how? How many years in a row have
50:35
rugby changed the rules? Yes.
50:37
And, and my reason, again, my reason for bringing up that
50:40
nuance is purely because I think this is a huge problem with
50:43
within liberalism sometimes on the left is that sometimes we
50:46
have these very well-intentioned and and correct conversations,
50:50
but when we leave out the thing that someone can gotcha on us,
50:54
we end up with egg all over our face because then they dismantle
50:56
all of our points. And so I have become a defensive
51:00
debater and the fact that I'm always looking for the thing
51:03
that someone will debunk my theory with.
51:07
And so that's why I come in with the nuance of of making sure
51:10
that someone can't be like, aha, and then distract me with that
51:13
fucking point and then erase all of the very valid points that we
51:17
have. This is a slight deviation and
51:19
we'll probably end the episode soon, but that is something that
51:22
really, really bugs me. Really bugs me about
51:28
conversations. I'm just like, none of us are
51:31
geniuses, right? Like all of us are kind of
51:33
learning. And tomorrow I'm going to learn
51:35
something new that I didn't know today.
51:37
Women don't want supremacy. Most women, there's a very small
51:40
minority of, you know, people who anyone who wants supremacy
51:42
is crazy, but most women don't want supremacy.
51:45
We really just want to be left alone and we want to be able to
51:48
collaborate with men and be friends with men and be lovers
51:50
with men and coexist in a peaceful, happy world.
51:55
And if men could just get with the fucking programme and stop
51:57
being so afraid of us, we could all be happier and they'd stop
52:00
killing themselves so much. Wonderful, thanks for joining
52:05
us. We have the lovely jam.
52:07
Talk the ear off a donkey. No.
52:08
You could though. You could though, But yeah, you
52:11
probably could. This is the way.
52:15
You can't ever have a radio DJ on your podcast because we
52:17
literally have to speak for six hours.
52:19
I'm sorry. Thank you.
52:21
See you soon. See you next week.
52:23
Bye bye.