Latest / Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger / The Rule of Law, a.k.a. the Ballgame

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The Rule of Law, a.k.a. the Ballgame · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Q&A.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jane Ordlinger, and our guest today is a legal eagle.
• 0:08
  He is Greg Nunziata,
• 0:10
  the executive director of SRL,
• 0:13
  the Society for the Rule of Law.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: The organization serves an important purpose.
• 0:19
  Greg worked in the Justice Department and for the Senate
• 0:23
  Judiciary Committee and
• 0:25
  for the Senate Republican Policy Committee and for Senator
• 0:29
  Marco Rubio and so on.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: He was in the heart of the Republican legal world.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: These days, he has one overriding concern to defend the rule of law.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Greg Nunziata, good morning.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning, Jay.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pretty good overriding concern to defend the rule of law.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And just a little 101, if you will, just some ABCs.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: What is the rule of law?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
• 1:01
  we're going to have a whole episode of our webinar series on
• 1:05
  this very simple
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: question in a few weeks.
• 1:07
  So it's a simple question,
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  but there's a lot of richness and complexity to it as well.
• 1:14
  I mean,
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  the rule of law,
• 1:16
  I think,
• 1:17
  most basically is this idea that an idea of
• 1:26
  fair play that we as citizens as individuals live in a system
• 1:35
  that has rules for
• 1:37
  resolving disputes for most of human history and most of the
• 1:40
  world still today the
• 1:44
  weak are at the mercy of the strong and the whim of the leader
• 1:47
  and the rule of law
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  is this great equalizer that puts that aside and says we're
• 1:52
  going to resolve our
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  SPEAKER_01: differences peacefully
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And through process,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: in America,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: we like to say about our society,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: the Society for the Rule of Law,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: that we are committed to defending the rule of law,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: the Constitution and American democracy.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And all those things are bound up.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can't have one really without the other here.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: The R.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: The rule of law in America,
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  SPEAKER_01: what makes sure that there is no one above the law,
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  SPEAKER_01: that we're not subject to the whim of a man,
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: is our Constitution and its separation of powers.
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  Everybody has to answer to somebody in America,
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  and all ambitions should be changed.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Act.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a rich concept that we should talk more about.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they teach enough about this in law school.
• 2:39
  Law school almost takes it for granted that you understand the
• 2:43
  value of this.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's very,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: very few law schools offer a class in the rule of law or the idea of law,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: but there's rich literature on it across disciplines,
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  SPEAKER_01: history,
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  SPEAKER_01: political theory,
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  SPEAKER_01: economics,
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  SPEAKER_01: sociology,
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  SPEAKER_01: and folks should read
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: more about it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because really, this is not kind of an academic concept.
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  SPEAKER_01: Everything,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think everything that humans value naturally,
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  SPEAKER_01: certainly all we value and maybe take for granted in America,
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  SPEAKER_01: prosperity,
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  SPEAKER_01: physical security,
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  SPEAKER_01: our liberties,
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  SPEAKER_01: it all rests on the rule of law.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's kind of the ballgame.
• 3:21
  I was going to ask why you and your friends founded the Society
• 3:25
  for the Rule of
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  SPEAKER_00: Law,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I guess it's obvious that
• 3:27
  you thought that the rule of law needed shoring up in America,
• 3:32
  that it was eroding,
• 3:34
  obviously.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, indeed.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think we're really approaching a crisis point,
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  SPEAKER_01: one that we've not seen certainly in my lifetime on that front.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are threats on the left and the right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the story of the Society for the Rule of Law
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  SPEAKER_01: begins in the first Trump administration.
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  And I think it started with a predecessor organization called
• 3:56
  Checks and Balances.
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  Checks and Balances is now the name with a little hat tip of
• 4:01
  our new sub stack,
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  SPEAKER_01: which we launched a few weeks ago and encourage people to check it out.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very proud of the content we're publishing there.
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  But it started with kind of a small group of lawyers who had
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  served in the Reagan
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  SPEAKER_01: and Bush administrations in the White House and the Justice Department.
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  who were particularly concerned about what was happening on the
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  legal right in the
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  SPEAKER_01: first Trump administration.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the primary concern,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: at the start,
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  SPEAKER_01: lots of people had concerns about Trump,
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  SPEAKER_01: but the need for this organization was,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: a perception,
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  SPEAKER_01: a correct perception of
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  that a lot of conservative lawyers and people and organizations
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  in the conservative
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  SPEAKER_01: legal movement had kind of fallen prey to partisanship.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if they weren't telling untruths,
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  they were holding their tongue and putting kind of party before
• 4:50
  principle.
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  And there was a felt need for...
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  You're so polite,
• 4:56
  Craig,
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  telling untruths.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: You're so polite.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Not on this show, baby.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, go ahead.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
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  SPEAKER_01: There was a need for a group that started putting principle first.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it started largely as a mutual support group.
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  SPEAKER_01: There were some public statements,
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  but we kind of refounded and launched as a more formal
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  organization late in the
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  Biden administration about a year and a half before the second
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  Trump administration
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  SPEAKER_01: as the Society for the Rule of Law.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we have a kind of a much more
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  uh Folsom program and ambition now um a staff um lots of
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  initiatives which we can
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  we can talk about uh if you're interested but they kind of you
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  know span community
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  building to education to advocacy and we're we're busy and we
• 5:46
  have a lot to do I
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  mean I think there there's um there really is you know America
• 5:51
  is seized I think on
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  SPEAKER_01: both sides in our politics with this uh this
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: feeling of existential struggle.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when folks are gripped with that,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: they're,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're willing to tear down the system just to,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: to win tomorrow.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think people are really blind to,
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  to the long-term damage they're doing for short-term gains and
• 6:11
  conservatives,
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  SPEAKER_01: most of all,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  SPEAKER_01: should be aware of that problem that should,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: should have,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  SPEAKER_01: the prudence and the sense of stewardship to avoid that temptation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, Greg, I'm being cheeky here.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
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  partly cheeky,
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  and if you want to avoid my cheekiness and just move on,
• 6:31
  fine.
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  I've been reading you for decades because I enjoy your
• 6:33
  cheekiness,
• 6:34
  so please.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Shouldn't the Federalist Society be the Society for the Rule of Law?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been a member of the Federalist Society for
• 6:48
  decades um and i have you know i've been i've said some things
• 6:52
  publicly that have
• 6:53
  been critical of it and uh we can talk about some of that uh if
• 6:56
  you want you know i
• 6:58
  i um criticize with love from within uh there are i think
• 7:05
  without being critical of
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  SPEAKER_01: the federal society
• 7:08
  for starters,
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  there are limitations to what they do,
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  even as they conceive themselves.
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  They,
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  perhaps I should say we,
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  I have a member,
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  don't take policy positions.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we have
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  really felt there was a need for an organization that does on
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  these fundamental questions.
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  There are a lot of groups in the conservative legal world that
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  have missions to
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  SPEAKER_01: defend something.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are groups that are dedicated to economic liberty,
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of libertarian inflected groups,
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  SPEAKER_01: free speech,
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  SPEAKER_01: religious liberty.
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  But we didn't see a group out there from the right of center
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  that was focused on
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  the active defense of the basic constitutional structure for
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  its own sake.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what we wanted to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Federal society is really not built to do that.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think another important distinction between us and them again,
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  without being directly critical is I think that the average
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  member of the federal
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  SPEAKER_01: society,
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  the modal member has deep confidence in the strength and
• 8:03
  resilience of our
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  institutions and may think that aspects of today's politics are
• 8:10
  unhealthy and
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  SPEAKER_01: unhelpful,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they feel a sense of crisis.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think they feel it's just the churn of politics.
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  I think the modal member of the Society for the Rule of Law
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  believes we are
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  SPEAKER_01: approaching a period of crisis.
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  SPEAKER_01: And even if we weren't,
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  the democracy and institutions are always fragile and always
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  require the act of
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  SPEAKER_01: defense,
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  most of all by conservatives to defend and sustain them and not
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  to coast on our
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  SPEAKER_01: inheritance and spend it down.
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  So I think that's a real sort of difference you'll feel if you
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  talk to a random
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  sampling of our members versus a random sampling of the Federal
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  Society members.
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  And there is considerable overlap,
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  including me,
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  as I said,
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  I'm a member of both.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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  Greg,
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  I was going to ask where you were from,
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  but I know that nunziatas are from Italy.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're in Italy, by the way.
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  SPEAKER_01: So southern Italy, the nearest city of any size would be Avellino.
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  SPEAKER_01: But so up in the hills in Campania inland from Naples.
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  SPEAKER_01: Have you been there?
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  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been to Naples many times,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I've never been to the villages my great grandparents came from.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I hope to do that perhaps this summer.
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  SPEAKER_00: They might throw a party for you, welcome you as a son.
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  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps, especially one town.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, I actually, this is an odd story.
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  I inadvertently named my first daughter after the village one
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  side of my family comes from.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I say inadvertently because I actually,
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  I never knew until I did genealogical research recently that my
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  great-grandmother
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  SPEAKER_01: was from this little town called Mirabella.
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  SPEAKER_01: She always said,
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  and a lot of her documents said she was born in Avellino
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  because that was the
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  SPEAKER_01: biggest nearby town.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it was the province of Avellino she was from.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I had always thought she was from Avellino.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I married a woman of Indian origin.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we were trying to find a kind of cross-cultural name.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we kind of invented Mirabella because Mira is an Indian name.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a Hindu saint and poet.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Bella is beautiful and Italian.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like an Italian name, but it's a created name that we did.
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  SPEAKER_01: as a nod to both our ancestors and both our cultures.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it turned out,
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  SPEAKER_01: after we discovered that my family's from Mirabella,
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  SPEAKER_01: around the time my daughter was five,
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  SPEAKER_01: so I would love to go back and see this little town in the hills.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
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  SPEAKER_00: Have you taken a family visit to Salzburg, Austria?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: No.
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  SPEAKER_00: You will enjoy the Mirabelle Palace and Gardens.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: One of the settings of the Sound of Music.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, is that right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: I did not know that, actually.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: She'll be quite at home there.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: She'll be delighted by that.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Greg, are you from Philadelphia or the environs of Philadelphia?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or neither?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, I kind of pretend to be from Philadelphia.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I adopted Philadelphia.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually born in New York.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was born in Queens in a kind of a NYPD family.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: My grandfather was a cop who had some really...
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: fascinating and historic cases ripped from the headlines, as they say.
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  SPEAKER_01: Really just a dramatic career, 50s, 60s, and 70s.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So my parents moved to the suburbs in Connecticut, and I grew up there.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: But after my schooling, I moved to Philadelphia.
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  SPEAKER_01: I knew I didn't want to practice law in New York for some reason.
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  And I looked all around the country,
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  and I think I interviewed in a dozen cities,
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  SPEAKER_01: And when I first set foot in Philadelphia, I just felt at home.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if this will make sense to you,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Jay,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: but like my background was New York and kind of ethnic neighborhoods and
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  SPEAKER_01: New York just always felt too much to me.
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  And Philadelphia felt like a lot of what I was familiar with
• 12:00
  from New York,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: but in a more human skin.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: But less.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but less, especially to be a lawyer.
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  SPEAKER_01: It just felt more, I don't know, humane.
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  I'm not sure that the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce will
• 12:12
  adopt my slogan,
• 12:14
  New York,
• 12:14
  but less.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But more humane, Jay, more humane.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I fell in love with Philadelphia.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I really, I do love it.
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  SPEAKER_01: I miss it living here in DC now.
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  SPEAKER_01: My wife is from Philadelphia.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: My in-laws are there.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we're back quite a lot.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I love the place.
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  SPEAKER_01: I started my career there.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I worked for a senator from Pennsylvania for a while.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hang on, you're going too fast, Greg.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Did you go to UPenn?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, well, ultimately I did.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I went to Georgetown for undergraduate.
• 12:47
  uh here in washington and then i went to the university of
• 12:49
  chicago from law school
• 12:52
  did you have any i'm sure you did famous professors we would
• 12:56
  did you have jeff
• 12:57
  stone who'd you have at uc sure yeah um well first i'll just
• 13:03
  say you're way too
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: young to have had scalia
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I did have, I think, professors that are relatively famous.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if you'll know this name.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just start from Georgetown.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I studied with a conservative political theorist named George Carey,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: who was just a wonderful man.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, my major was political theory.
• 13:24
  People joked I majored in conservatism because I seemed to take
• 13:26
  classes that were
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: focused on conservative thinking throughout the four years.
• 13:31
  And then I went to law school and we had a lot of wonderful
• 13:35
  professors there.
• 13:36
  Professor,
• 13:38
  the future President Obama was there,
• 13:40
  though I did not take a class with him.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I did meet him.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very small law school.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to think of names that Sunstein certainly is a big name.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: David Curry, who was now deceased, a wonderful.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, Cass Sunstein was where?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sunstein was there.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: We at Chicago now?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: He was at Chicago.
• 14:02
  Jack Goldsmith,
• 14:03
  who later went into Harvard,
• 14:06
  was a wonderful professor of mine.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: I still very much admire his work.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hang on.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is he Jimmy Hoffa's stepson?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: He has a fascinating book about that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Another professor who I had,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: who I really enjoyed,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: who I have become a critic of,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: or he has gone in a direction which I have trouble understanding,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: is Adrian Vermeule,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: who is now at Harvard.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's very much celebrated in the post-liberal world.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: The brilliant guy, anti-democratic, right?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, but anti-democratic.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of those in history.
• 14:44
  I had him in perhaps his first year as a professor,
• 14:47
  and he was coy about his personal politics.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think he was still pursuing tenure because he had just started,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: so I'm pretty sure it was his first year.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: But he was a wonderful teacher,
• 14:58
  and I've even heard this from students he has at Harvard now
• 15:01
  who are very critical
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: of his worldview,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: that he's just a very,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: very good teacher.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's Joe Administrative Law, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea what administrative law is, mind you.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just know he's one of the world's foremost authorities on it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Before we move on, how smart is Sunstein?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sunstein's very smart.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're all very smart, but here's the thing with the law.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I should mention Professor Epstein is also quite widely known.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Richard Epstein.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Richard Epstein, yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of just oversized personalities there.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Philip Hamburger,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: who is now at Columbia,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: who was a wonderful professor that I took a lot of classes with.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I might be mistaken.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I believe he has a doctorate in history.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: If not, he's very deeply read in history.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: He just taught these wonderful classes that, for me...
• 16:02
  I've always was more interested in law as an idea rather than
• 16:06
  as a toolkit.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was always more interested in the philosophy of law than the craft.
• 16:12
  Hamburger had these wonderful seminars on the roots of American
• 16:16
  legal theory and
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: jurisprudence on the development of
• 16:21
  our understandings of the First Amendment and freedom of
• 16:24
  religion in this country.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: He wrote a wonderful book on that.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I took every class he would offer.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: He was just wonderful.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So Greg, I'm not holding you.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a complete list.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like a personal pantheon or anything.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I want three or four Supreme Court justices you admire.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say from the New Deal onward.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: modern, roughly speaking.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Give me... Yeah, I don't know.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's, gosh, there's just a number of them.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you don't have anyone's...
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I remember years ago, I went to visit Michael Mukasey at his office.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And over his shoulder were two pictures, and two pictures only.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: One I knew immediately, it was Orwell's.
• 17:15
  and I didn't recognize the other one,
• 17:17
  and it was Robert Jackson at Nuremberg.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people like Jackson,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: but give me a...
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mukasey,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: by the way,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: when I was on the Senate Judiciary Committee,
• 17:28
  I handled his confirmation proceeding as attorney general and
• 17:32
  was very impressed
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: with him.
• 17:35
  Look,
• 17:36
  I grew up in the 80s,
• 17:38
  and at the time I was kind of formed as a conservative and a
• 17:42
  lawyer,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: it was impossible to not be deeply impressed by Antonin Scalia.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: there's just nobody,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: for me,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:50
  like Ronald Reagan and Scalia are kind of probably the two
• 17:54
  people who imprinted
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: most deeply on me.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, I still admire him in so many ways, both in his career,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: his scholarship,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: his jurisprudence,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: his public speaking,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: the way he was really kind of an apostle of the constitution.
• 18:11
  I mean,
• 18:12
  the way he could talk about these concepts in approachable ways
• 18:16
  to average citizens.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I always thought he was a teacher at heart.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: he was obviously willing to leave the law school,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: but I always thought he was a natural born teacher.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can hear him teach in his written opinions.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I admire him greatly.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I always admired Rehnquist greatly, too.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Particularly,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:37
  he was kind of in some ways a transitional figure from the more
• 18:43
  activist court that
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: came before him.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he was kind of a lone conservative voice,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: maybe not as fully formed as Scalia would become,
• 18:51
  but he kind of held a light in darkness from my perspective for
• 18:55
  Rehnquist.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: for quite some time.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: so he,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: so he meant a lot to me and,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: and on the current court,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have a fantastic court really.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I only,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: say that,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I played some role in building it,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't take credit for it.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: but I,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 19:12
  I got to know several of these justices and their confirmation
• 19:15
  proceedings.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I, I'm just really terrifically impressed by the court we have.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've got, I, um, let's talk about a democratic justice for a minute.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I, uh,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: When Elena Kagan was dean of Harvard Law School,
• 19:29
  I heard nothing but praise of her from conservatives as someone
• 19:33
  who is conservative
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: friendly.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is that your impression?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's my impression that she remade Harvard Law School.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she...
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 19:43
  I was mentioning before some of my favorite professors from the
• 19:46
  University of
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Chicago,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Elena Kagan poached many of them and brought them to Harvard.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Jack Goldsmith is at Harvard now.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Adrienne Vermeule went from Chicago to Harvard.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there were others.
• 19:58
  I mean,
• 19:58
  she really deliberately promoted intellectual diversity on
• 20:02
  campus.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's remarkable how many prominent law schools don't
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: have a single notable right of center scholar.
• 20:11
  And it's kind of a malpractice too at a time when the courts
• 20:16
  are dominated by
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: judges who come from a conservative legal perspective.
• 20:23
  You can go through law school and not meet a professor who is
• 20:26
  sympathetic to that perspective.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: You and I are pro-diversity.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Intellectual diversity is really important.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was great at that.
• 20:36
  I understand from my friends who went through the Federal
• 20:39
  Society at Harvard,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: she was very supportive of their activities and their programming.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Harvard,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: in part because it is one of the biggest law schools in the country,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: also has one of the biggest Federal Society chapters in the country.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And she was very supportive of their work.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think
• 20:57
  Her ability to respect and understand and talk to conservatives
• 21:05
  shows on the court.
• 21:07
  I think she is the most effective justice from the left of
• 21:11
  center,
• 21:12
  in part because of that.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: She knows how to speak like a conservative,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: to persuade conservatives,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: to understand them and not just demonize them.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a real skill that, frankly, I think is...
• 21:23
  Andrew Rothenberg- underappreciated when we search for for
• 21:26
  justices there's kind of
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: some some some presidents are attracted to ideological firebrands,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: but you know it's a it's a court of nine people,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: and if justice doesn't have those kinds of soft skills to work.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: across the ideological divides,
• 21:47
  they could lose votes for opinions they're trying to build a
• 21:50
  majority around.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an important skill in a justice, and she's very gifted at that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So Greg Nunziata, where were you on 9-11?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I graduated law school in 2001,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: and September 11th was a Tuesday,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: and it was effectively my first day.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: on the job as a lawyer at a big international law firm.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: We had,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: reported to work on Monday for kind of a welcome reception,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: but Tuesday was a full day of training.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they had us in a conference room on the top of what was then,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: the tallest or maybe the second tallest building in Philadelphia.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: the partner who was running the meeting that morning was handed a note,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: and he looked a little perturbed,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: but he put it away and went on with his
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: with the meeting for a couple hours.
• 22:44
  And it wasn't until lunchtime when we were released to the
• 22:47
  lobby that we learned
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: about September Lachlan having happened.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there were TVs up.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Greg, I can't remember.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Was this sort of pre-smartphone?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you all weren't looking or instructed not to look at your phone.
• 23:00
  oh yeah yeah i i i must have been i mean you know we were we
• 23:04
  were issued um
• 23:05
  blackberries which you know hand email devices but we didn't
• 23:09
  have them yet okay um
• 23:10
  so so yeah no we didn't have anything like that um so no
• 23:13
  notification and it was
• 23:15
  shocking to get this news you know so we learned not in real
• 23:18
  time the towers were
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: down and had been down i guess a couple hours by by noon um
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we had it was a training for new lawyers firm wide.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there were lawyers from New York there who were
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Quite worried, obviously, about friends and family.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the firm said we could take a long lunch.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if the New Yorkers wanted to try to get home, they were free to.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: But we had a lot of work to do that afternoon.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: So please get back by 2 o'clock.
• 23:47
  I had a lot of friends and family in New York,
• 23:49
  a lot of police in my family.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I made several phone calls over lunch to my grandfather and others.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And did go back to the office, but pretty well decided that day.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: that I wanted to do something in public service.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I,
• 24:09
  uh i you know i had friends and who from law school who were in
• 24:13
  the white house
• 24:14
  counsel's office working in the senate on the house um at the
• 24:18
  defense department
• 24:20
  and i thought geez these these these folks are doing something
• 24:23
  consequential with
• 24:23
  their legal careers and i want to be part of that uh so i spent
• 24:27
  the next two years
• 24:28
  trying to trying to get to washington as much as i love
• 24:30
  philadelphia i i i felt
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: call to a career in public service or public policy and public affairs.
• 24:40
  I didn't want to just stay at that big law firm doing
• 24:43
  transactions or mass litigation.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: This next subject, Greg, we don't need to spend more than a minute on.
• 24:57
  Marco Rubio may have been my favorite politician in America,
• 25:00
  certainly top five.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Same.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: In the whole country.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea who he is.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's a Famic's expression.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was Gertrude Stein.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's no there there.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea who he is.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think I have a firmer grasp on Lindsey Graham even.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea who Marco Rubio is.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Except for ambition.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I adored him, Greg.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know him personally.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I adored him.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I am sympathetic to this.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I worked for three senators directly.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: I worked with many others, but worked directly for three.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say I respected the first.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I loved the second, but I believed in the third.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the first was Arlen Specter from Pennsylvania.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: The second was John Thune.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: who's now the leader, and the third was Marco Rubio.
• 26:00
  And I was,
• 26:02
  you know,
• 26:02
  too old and too experienced to be naive about politics.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 26:08
  I knew these folks were people and they were all flawed and
• 26:13
  maybe anyone who goes
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: into politics needs to be a little bit bent.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I really believed in him and in his vision.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I worked for him for four years,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: worked closely with him,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: very much wanted him to win the nomination in 2016.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And a part of me died that year, I think.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was really disillusioning.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: We'll never be the same.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: People like you and me will never be the same politically.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was very, very, very hard.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 26:46
  lot of things were hard but both i mean both you know in where
• 26:49
  we went um and there
• 26:53
  was a feeling for me that that so much slipped away and so much
• 26:56
  changed that year i
• 26:57
  mean you know i in some simple ways too like i spent my my
• 27:00
  career working in
• 27:02
  congress focus on public policy on legislating and it felt like
• 27:07
  what's that yeah
• 27:08
  the policy and the ideas in that campaign didn't matter it was
• 27:11
  all communications
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: and showmanship and that that hurt me
• 27:16
  A lot of what I did with Senator Rubio was working on
• 27:19
  bipartisan legislation
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: because that's how you change America.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's the job.
• 27:24
  To be a senator to have any impact is to work across the aisle
• 27:28
  to pass a bill.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I saw,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: campaign,
• 27:33
  like being in New Hampshire on that campaign and hearing from
• 27:37
  Republican voters,
• 27:38
  I can't believe he sat in a room with Claire McCaskill or he
• 27:41
  sat down with
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Chuck Schumer.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, what do you think the job is?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to pass laws.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: They never had civics.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have a clue what America is.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Not a clue.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: They're not full authoritarians.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Just dismaying.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Apart from kind of my own rooting interest and policy preferences,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: it felt like something was changing now.
• 28:06
  deeply uh in our politics in our country then um it's it's you
• 28:11
  know gotten worse um
• 28:14
  you know i will say you know senator rubio i i um i'm grateful
• 28:18
  for the opportunity
• 28:18
  i've worked for him and i think it's uh it's it's disrespectful
• 28:24
  and unprofessional
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: to say too much about a former uh
• 28:28
  boss like that uh i will say he is a very private person um
• 28:33
  it's always it's it's
• 28:34
  strange and people who can be so public in politics are also
• 28:38
  can also be personally
• 28:39
  private and he is um you know and i'll i think um you know he
• 28:46
  he i'm still hopeful
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: that that he is doing some good in the role he's at i mean you know he
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: When I worked for him anyway,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: and the interactions I've had with him,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: he would speak really,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: really eloquently about the power of democracy,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: about the importance of the international alliance,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: about the importance of USAID.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 29:16
  He serves a principal who has different views,
• 29:18
  and I don't know how one navigates that.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the Department of Justice.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up with a notion that it served the country at large.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now it seems to be one man's personal legal shop,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: and they put a huge banner of him on the building.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can't help thinking that this is wrong.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is wrong.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is un-American.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's civic blasphemy.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how else to say it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people...
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm genuinely surprised when I speak,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: particularly I think to young people who say,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's always been like that.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is unimaginable.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Totally unimaginable.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Ed Levy wouldn't have stood for it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Elliot Richards wouldn't have stood for it.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Eric Holder wouldn't have stood for it.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing.
• 30:17
  When people cite instances of Holder being too chummy with
• 30:21
  Obama or something,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: the whole point is these things were scandals.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: They were scandals and they were failures.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot in this era,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of justifying what's being done is finding examples of previous
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: transgressions and using them to somehow justify a new change.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: rather than regarding them as transgressions that ought to be minimized.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're never perfect.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine Obama's banner on the Justice Department?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: We have impeached him.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was kind of it seems quaint now,
• 31:05
  but I was like I was actively disturbed by the cult of
• 31:08
  personality around Obama.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and, you know, and we're in a whole nother whole nother world.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, you know, and I think.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the strongman element of this.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's the fixation on Trump as a leader.
• 31:27
  There's also this deep corruption,
• 31:29
  I think,
• 31:29
  in what it is to be a lawyer in government.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to explain this to people.
• 31:37
  I don't know if it gets through to folks who haven't worked at
• 31:41
  a place like the
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Justice Department or even as a lawyer in the Defense Department or other
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: uh, places in the executive branch.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Executive branch lawyers,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: even political appointees,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: that is people who are chosen by the president who support his policies,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: have traditionally understood that their job is to be a lawyer first.
• 32:03
  Uh,
• 32:04
  and that involves telling the president,
• 32:06
  no,
• 32:07
  when what he wants to do,
• 32:09
  um,
• 32:10
  is unlawful.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably fair to say that executive branch lawyers, uh,
• 32:16
  have a history of reading the law from a certain perspective
• 32:21
  that is more favorable
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: to the president.
• 32:24
  But they're applying real law and real limitations on what the
• 32:29
  government can do.
• 32:30
  And a responsible president cares and listens to that and takes
• 32:37
  no for an answer
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: and asks,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: how can I accomplish my aims lawfully?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: That culture, I think, is totally out the window right now.
• 32:46
  I think that the lawyers at the Justice Department and the
• 32:49
  Defense Department and
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: others view it as their job to write permission slips for the president,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: not to give him legal opinions.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you just see this over and over again.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: We should have...
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: probably i think been more worried you know when we learned early in the
• 33:06
  administration that for instance the president had sacked all
• 33:10
  the top lawyers in
• 33:11
  the defense department uh you know there's there's a deliberate
• 33:15
  effort to to to
• 33:17
  staff the administration with with with with compliance
• 33:21
  attorneys with enablers you
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: know it's um we have a president who
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: does not regard the law as a meaningful constraint on his behavior.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he's trying to find lawyers to make that a reality.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's no shortage of them, true?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: There seems to be no shortage of them.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, it's just terribly dismaying.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Greg, I'll just, I'll form this question in a simplistic way.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Can the DOJ be brought back?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can the FBI be brought back?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: or is there very long-term damage?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is a great question.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And my answer to it may depend on the weather.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a beautiful spring day, and I'm feeling sunnier than usual.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can be brought back if we act soon.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Advanced administration might finish it off, I'm thinking.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's right.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: a Democratic administration could finish it off,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: if they handle rebuilding the wrong way.
• 34:31
  I mean,
• 34:32
  I think that the choice of the next attorney general will be
• 34:35
  massively consequential.
• 34:37
  We have today a number of longtime DOJ professionals in exile
• 34:45
  who I think would
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: gladly go back to the department under better leadership.
• 34:49
  And it would bring with them the institutional memory of the
• 34:52
  culture that was there.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: But there's only so many years that that will be true.
• 34:56
  So,
• 34:58
  you know,
• 34:58
  I think if we live in this world much longer,
• 35:01
  it'll be much,
• 35:02
  much harder.
• 35:02
  And I think,
• 35:03
  you know,
• 35:04
  this intuitively,
• 35:05
  I think all conservatives do that.
• 35:07
  It's much easier to destroy institutions and cultures than it
• 35:10
  is to build them.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of the point of conservatism.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, indeed.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I worry about the damage done.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I worry about just how much has been normalized.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 35:27
  it's just we're in a darker and more difficult place than we
• 35:31
  were five years ago
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: across a lot of metrics and politics.
• 35:34
  So Greg,
• 35:35
  I'm going to be a little extreme here for performance's sake
• 35:39
  and for argument's sake.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to be hyperbolic and histrionic, but only to a degree.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in constitutional guardrails anymore.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think the whole notion is absurd.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I believe in people with integrity or without.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think paper protections aren't worth squat.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Mike Pence was a human guardrail on January 6th.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: The election official in Arizona, Stephen Richer, was a guardrail.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: The guys in Georgia, those Republicans, were guardrails.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Good people are all that stands between us and le délige.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in constitutional guardrails.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, nation of laws, not men.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful ideal.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you can just see that,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: this movement and this party disregard the law and say,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: ah,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: what are you going to do about it?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer seems to be, not much.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was all kind of on the honor system, wasn't it?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: The idea that Richard Nixon resigned over what he resigned over,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: it just seems like little Bo Peep.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like a fairy tale.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Nixon went home to California over that?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: These guys do 10 of them a day and no one cares.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my performance.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, you're right.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're largely right.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's only hyperbolic by degree.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's Madison,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: who talked about,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: it was Madison,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: I believe,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: who used the phrase parchment barriers,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: that the written law can only do so much.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the courts can only do so much.
• 37:28
  We ultimately really need to have a culture that cares about
• 37:32
  these things.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's, I mean, the law matters.
• 37:38
  If the culture believes in it,
• 37:40
  you know,
• 37:40
  it's a little bit like Tinkerbell.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have to believe in it for it to work.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I believe in it.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are a lot of judges who do.
• 37:51
  And the judiciary has been performing,
• 37:53
  I think,
• 37:53
  really admirably as part of why.
• 37:58
  it is so um demeaned by the president and his supporters uh and
• 38:05
  i think there's a
• 38:06
  scandalous two-year now campaign by the president by the vice
• 38:11
  president by stephen
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: miller to delegitimize our judiciary um because they they are the last
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: constitutionally functional branch
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what I hope to do in a lot of our work,
• 38:24
  particularly our work at the Society for the Rule of Law on law
• 38:27
  school campuses,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: is to contribute to rebuilding a culture that cares.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: A culture of people who,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: even regular voters,
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: who say,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: I might want this for the president,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: but the law doesn't allow that.
• 38:43
  If I'm going to get this,
• 38:44
  we need to find a way to change the law,
• 38:46
  or we need to
• 38:48
  make peace with the limitations of what government can do or
• 38:52
  what my champion in
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: the White House can do.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: We really need to rebuild that culture and it needs to be done actively.
• 38:59
  I think too much of the discussion of defending democracy and
• 39:03
  defending the rule of
• 39:04
  law assumes that we have a people who understand that those are
• 39:09
  values that need to
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: be defended.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think we do.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 39:14
  I think we need to kind of start from the beginning and make an
• 39:17
  active case to
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: people about why we want to live in a country where law matters.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to do that.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I am really worried.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Some of my friends,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: particularly maybe on the progressive side,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: have this inherent or knee-jerk faith in the youth making things better.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my gosh.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my gosh.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: They should meet some of the young people I've known.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really worried by what I hear.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: I learned the word integralist from people who are about 20.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Never heard that word before.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 39:54
  I hear from regularly from conservative law students that the
• 40:01
  law doesn't matter,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: that we live in a post-legal regime,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: a post-constitutional regime,
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: or everything is just about power.
• 40:07
  Or you hear it's kind of like the right-wing mirror image of
• 40:11
  critical race theory that...
• 40:14
  Law is just an elaborate ruse of the left to suppress
• 40:19
  traditionalism and Western civilization.
• 40:22
  It's a rot that you can't count on a conservative law student
• 40:28
  to believe in law
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: that we're in a rough spot.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: A few more, Greg.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think the midterm elections this year will be trustworthy?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think there's a lot to worry about.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: But to start with,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: there are many things I didn't understand the value of in my youth,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: but one of them was local control of elections.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's messy in America.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: Every state and jurisdiction does things differently.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: We saw in 2000 a confusing ballot in Florida.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the whole country on edge.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: We learned the phrase hanging chads.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Hanging chads, butterfly ballots.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I forgot about that one.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: When I was in Philadelphia,
• 41:34
  I defined that a lot of polling stations were in barbershops
• 41:37
  and people's private
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: garages.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:41
  I thought,
• 41:42
  geez,
• 41:42
  there ought to be a national standard to clean all this stuff
• 41:44
  up.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: And now I realize how fortunate we are because it's very,
• 41:49
  very hard for people in power to steal the election because
• 41:53
  it's not one election.
• 41:55
  There are localities and states in control of many different
• 41:59
  procedures across the country.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that makes it hard to steal.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, it may make it easier to sow doubt
• 42:09
  and i'm very worried about what's going on right now i mean i
• 42:13
  think there's this
• 42:14
  whole effort in congress uh around a variety of proposals for
• 42:20
  federal law around
• 42:21
  elections and uh they they are i think well we could talk about
• 42:28
  the legislative
• 42:28
  proposals if you like but more than anything they're being sold
• 42:31
  in this alarmist
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: terms like if we don't pass this
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: We can't trust our elections.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: it very much feels like leading Republicans,
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: the Speaker of the House included,
• 42:43
  are trying to create the conditions by which the president can
• 42:48
  say the elections
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: have been stolen,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: as he has done with every election he's ever lost,
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: back to losing to Ted Cruz in Iowa.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: I remember Colorado as well.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, it's just, it's really worrisome.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 43:06
  I think we have pretty good systems and we have some impressive
• 43:12
  elections of
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: officials,
• 43:13
  even Republicans elected in the MAGA era who take their job
• 43:17
  pretty seriously.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I am pretty optimistic about the actual integrity of our elections.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm worried about a climate of doubt that's being developed.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm of course worried about
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: shenanigans as well that the president might be contemplating.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what those could be.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: He's got these executive orders out there that are troubling.
• 43:39
  The administration's kind of,
• 43:41
  you hear this flirting about federal agents at polling
• 43:44
  stations.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there's lots to be worried about.
• 43:49
  But I think we still have a highly functioning electoral system
• 43:53
  in this country.
• 43:55
  Well,
• 43:55
  Greg,
• 43:56
  this may make you laugh,
• 43:57
  but I regard you as a very important person.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly aiding a cause that is very, very important.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: And your family ought to be very proud of you.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're filling an important role.
• 44:17
  I know you're a big wig in the Senate and so on,
• 44:21
  but I think you're a bigger wig now.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: in what you're doing.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I so appreciate it.
• 44:26
  And I'll give you final words,
• 44:31
  anything else you want to discuss,
• 44:33
  something you want to note.
• 44:35
  As Bill Buckley would say,
• 44:36
  corrections,
• 44:38
  provocations,
• 44:39
  contradictions,
• 44:41
  remonstrations,
• 44:43
  witticism.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's really kind of you to say.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is the ballgame.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: This rule of law stuff is the ballgame.
• 44:54
  None of our policy debates and tax rates and crap matter at all
• 44:59
  without the rule of law.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's right.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm on that soapbox every day.
• 45:04
  There are a lot of formers in Washington and people who tell
• 45:10
  you that I used to be somebody.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I get to say, I used to be somebody who was going to be somebody.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was a Senate staffer to people with big jobs and their futures.
• 45:24
  And maybe I could have had a role in a Republican
• 45:25
  administration that looked
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: different from the Republican administrations that we've come to expect.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: You may have to run for office your own bad self.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I do – I love this work.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that we can –
• 45:47
  keep a flame alive and from that flame build a movement that is
• 45:55
  both within the
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: right and more broadly.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I kind of look at that as two different projects.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: I try to
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: for us, bring a right of center perspective to rule of law discussions.
• 46:09
  And I try to bring a rule of law perspective to
• 46:11
  intraconservative discussions.
• 46:13
  I think there's an American project,
• 46:18
  an American renewal that is necessary.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I also want to fight for the kind of right that you and I came up in,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: a right that kind of understands
• 46:30
  Its legacy understands the great gifts we've inherited as
• 46:36
  Americans and wants to
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: fight to preserve them.
• 46:40
  I'm still just scandalized by the radicalism we see in the
• 46:47
  Republican Party and
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: from young,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: self-styled conservative intellectuals who,
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: quite frankly,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: don't want to conserve a thing and want to burn it all down.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: this,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: that worldview has been wrong since Paris in 1789 and it's wrong today.
• 47:05
  Uh,
• 47:06
  and I,
• 47:06
  I,
• 47:07
  I,
• 47:07
  um,
• 47:08
  I can have dark days,
• 47:09
  but I,
• 47:10
  but I,
• 47:10
  I really don't despair.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think we spoke a little bit about it, about New York in the seventies.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to put myself in the place of, you know, I was a baby.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: so it put my place in an adult then how my,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: maybe my grandfather might've seen things,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: the trend lines in America.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: economic, safety, culturally, were all so negative in the 1970s.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you must have imagined that we were sliding off an abyss.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: And look where we wound up.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: we turned so many things around in this country,
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: in no small part because of visionary,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: dedicated conservatives like the people we grew up admiring.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's always possible and kind of decline is not inevitable.
• 47:58
  And I'm really hopeful that we're approaching a nadir that we
• 48:03
  will build out of.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, Jay.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen,
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jay Nordlinger doing Q&A and we've been listening to Greg Nunziata,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: the executive director of the Society for the Rule of Law.