Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 52– Aaron Royston - Managing Partner at VenBio

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Episode 52– Aaron Royston - Managing Partner at VenBio · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:04
  So welcome back to another episode of the Bio Hub.
• 0:07
  Today, we're delighted to welcome Aaron Royston, who's a
• 0:10
  managing partner at Venn Bio and a leader in the life sciences
• 0:13
  venture world. With a background that spans
• 0:15
  medicine, business and biotech investing, Aaron has played a
• 0:18
  key role in building companies like Capellis Raised Bio Ventics
• 0:22
  Biosciences, Akira Therapeutics, and Harmony Biosciences.
• 0:26
  Andy holds an MD and MBA from the University of Pencil
• 0:30
  Albania, and early in his career he was recognised by the White
• 0:33
  House as a champion of change for his work in tech and
• 0:36
  innovation. So join us today as we'll walk
• 0:39
  through Venbio story, Aaron's role in several high profile
• 0:43
  acquisitions, as well as Venbio's latest fund.
• 0:46
  So Aaron, thanks so much for coming on.
• 0:48
  How are you? Good, good.
• 0:50
  Thank you so much for having me. You've had a great roster of
• 0:53
  people before me, so definitely humbled to join as well.
• 0:56
  Yeah. Look, it's an absolute pleasure.
• 0:59
  So let's just start off with a little bit about your journey
• 1:02
  then. So can you share your background
• 1:04
  from being a physician to becoming a venture capitalist,
• 1:07
  and what made you motivated to make that transition?
• 1:12
  Yeah, absolutely. So like many young people who go
• 1:16
  into medicine, you know, I think I was motivated by, by two
• 1:19
  things primarily. The first was a deep curiosity
• 1:23
  about biology and, and how living systems work and, and
• 1:26
  what drives disease. The second was a motivation to
• 1:30
  use that knowledge to, you know, make an impact on the world and,
• 1:34
  and try to help people. And so those things initially
• 1:37
  steered me to the University of Pennsylvania for medical school.
• 1:42
  Similar motivations actually ultimately drew me to, to
• 1:45
  running clinical research at Mount Sinai Medical Center.
• 1:48
  I was really stimulated by research because I felt that
• 1:52
  elucidating novel biology and medical discoveries was a way to
• 1:56
  contribute, you know, towards helping a lot of people with a
• 1:59
  given disease versus let's say one-on-one patient care.
• 2:04
  However, as we know, getting research going can be slow at
• 2:07
  times. And it's it's often relying on
• 2:09
  government grants, which can have long processes and
• 2:12
  timelines to apply for funding and, and can be quite
• 2:15
  bureaucratic. And So what really ultimately
• 2:17
  drove me to biotech and venture capital was the ability to, you
• 2:22
  know, raise funds and, and directly pour gasoline right
• 2:26
  into the engine of research and, and turn scientific discoveries
• 2:29
  into real medicine in a rapid way.
• 2:34
  Ultimately, if you can, you know, just turn those
• 2:36
  discoveries into FDFDA approved therapies, you can literally
• 2:40
  help millions of people. And so I think that broad scale
• 2:44
  of of what we were working on or could be working on was, was
• 2:46
  really motivating for me. In addition to those drivers,
• 2:51
  you know, I've always been drawn to investing.
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  I would say in general, which I've done personally, you know,
• 2:56
  dating back to college and medical school, whether it was
• 2:59
  public stocks or actually sports betting, which, you know, the
• 3:02
  latter is probably best stories told over drinks sometimes.
• 3:06
  But you know, I've always been excited by finding value and
• 3:10
  comfortable taking risk if I was confident in my analysis and
• 3:13
  point of view. And so combining some of those
• 3:17
  specific motivations around medical science and helping
• 3:21
  patients, I think Biotech BC just ended up being, you know, a
• 3:25
  really nice fit for me. Very good.
• 3:29
  And then bio, you guys have had a lot of success since its
• 3:31
  founding in 2011. Can you walk us through how the
• 3:36
  firm grew to approximately 2 billion under AUM?
• 3:40
  Sure. And and thanks for the comment.
• 3:45
  So the firm was launched in 2011 by my partners Rob and Corey and
• 3:50
  coming out of the financial recession, as you can imagine it
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  was a very challenging time to put together a first time
• 3:55
  vehicle. And so the way that they were
• 3:58
  able to do that was actually with a fairly unique LP base
• 4:02
  which comprise mostly strategic pharma as limited partners in
• 4:05
  the first fund. Those relationships were
• 4:08
  extremely beneficial. They still are today.
• 4:11
  And as we think about exit opportunities, therapeutic areas
• 4:14
  of interest for pharma, maybe most specifically, what data do
• 4:18
  you need to generate to really catalyze pharma BD and mitigate
• 4:21
  their concerns? All of that was very beneficial.
• 4:25
  Of course, you know pharma's capital also was a means for us
• 4:28
  to develop a track record early on and so we're very grateful
• 4:31
  for that. In our second fund, we started
• 4:35
  to add more financial investors in addition to pharma.
• 4:38
  And when it came to our third fund in 2018, we decided to
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  carve back pharma to a much smaller percentage of the fund.
• 4:44
  And the goal was to diversify the LP base to a variety of more
• 4:48
  financially motivated investors, you know, university endowments,
• 4:53
  pension plans, foundations, family offices, financial
• 4:56
  institutions, etcetera, because pharma would be much lower
• 5:02
  percentage of the fund at that time.
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  We actually started that fundraise from a much lower base
• 5:07
  of capital in 2018. And so this actually ended up
• 5:10
  being a pretty heavy lift for my partners.
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  And I, you know, I, I think back to that year, I think probably
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  travelled over 250 days that year flying around the country
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  and the world, you know, meeting with potential new all peas.
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  And there were a lot of highs and a lot of lows of that year.
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  Actually, it was a particularly challenging personal time for
• 5:29
  me. I just had my first baby.
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  My wife's father also just had a heart attack, unfortunately, and
• 5:34
  was in the ICU for many months, ultimately getting an artificial
• 5:37
  heart. And so, you know, it entailed
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  that year, you know, they spent the ICU to a red eye to the East
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  Coast for a fundraising pitch. And then back that same day,
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  because I had a newborn at home. And you know, I know many GPS
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  and CE OS have had those points in their career or business
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  where it really takes a full blown Sprint to get the
• 5:57
  organization to a point of stability.
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  And when I look back, it was really one of those times for
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  for us and, and me personally. But anyway, fortunately after a
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  pretty long and challenging fundraise, we ended up with a a
• 6:12
  successful outcome and some really, truly fantastic limited
• 6:16
  partners joining us in that fund.
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  We've been really fortunate that since fund three, we've had a
• 6:22
  very consistent LP base as we went on to close fund four and
• 6:26
  then fund five in the subsequent years.
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  And with those two funds, we've only added a handful of new LP's
• 6:32
  each fund and we're very fortunate to raise those in in
• 6:36
  pretty quick fashion over over just a few months.
• 6:39
  And so, you know, it feels like our firm has achieved a lot of
• 6:41
  stability since that diversification of LP's in in
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  2018. But yeah, it's it's certainly
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  been an evolution in the investor base as as we've grown
• 6:53
  over the last 15 years. OK.
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  And what strategies in particular have been keen have
• 6:58
  been key to the success? Yeah, good question.
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  I, I would say, you know as a starting point again a big part
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  of our success is the support of amazing set of LP's, most of
• 7:10
  which have joined us over the past three funds.
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  I hope what gives them confidence is, is our discipline
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  when it comes to fund management and, and building our portfolio
• 7:22
  for each of our funds. Our goal is to make 10 to 12
• 7:25
  investments. And, and so we've sized the
• 7:27
  funds accordingly for that. While we've had some growth in,
• 7:31
  in fund size over the years, I, I, I bet it's mostly in line,
• 7:34
  you know, with increased costs in biotech and increases in
• 7:37
  typical round sizes. But we think this portfolio size
• 7:42
  of 10 to 12 companies is, is really the right number to
• 7:45
  diversify our funds while also allowing us to be extremely
• 7:49
  selective and and getting involved with each of our
• 7:51
  companies that we're helping to build.
• 7:54
  I think our LP's have really appreciated our discipline on
• 7:57
  fund size and particularly despite times when we could have
• 8:00
  raised significantly more capital.
• 8:04
  We're also, you know, very focused on building companies in
• 8:06
  therapeutic areas where you can clinically validate the
• 8:09
  treatment it within three to five years.
• 8:13
  And so this gives us and our companies a lot of optionality
• 8:17
  and and we don't necessarily have to rely on on private
• 8:20
  markets being receptive for biotech for long durations.
• 8:24
  And so this is really helped us Dr. liquidity in in tough macro
• 8:28
  environments. And lastly, probably most
• 8:32
  importantly, we're focused on treatments that that can prove
• 8:37
  they meaningfully affect patient outcomes.
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  If you could show that a treatment helps patients with an
• 8:43
  unmet medical need, you'll almost certainly be financially
• 8:46
  rewarded for that. And so, you know, this really
• 8:49
  allows us to do well for our LP's by doing well for patients.
• 8:54
  And I think my colleagues and I take a lot of pride both in the
• 8:59
  returns that we generate, but also as well as the drugs we've
• 9:02
  brought to market. Very good.
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  And you've personally LED investments into some very
• 9:09
  successful companies, a cure of Therapeutics, raised Bio,
• 9:13
  Harmony Biosciences, Apellis Ventic Biosciences and many
• 9:17
  others. You mentioned the funds
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  typically you'll invest in maybe 10 companies or so.
• 9:24
  How do you how did you find and identify those opportunities
• 9:28
  initially? Yeah, it's a great question and
• 9:33
  maybe actually helpful to run through, you know, some of these
• 9:38
  just to give you a sense for, for the different channels.
• 9:41
  So actually, you know, both Acaro Therapeutics and Raise Bio
• 9:46
  originated from a good friend, Aaron Cantoff reaching out
• 9:50
  actually with an idea or a therapeutic area he was
• 9:52
  assessing and and starting to put a company together.
• 9:56
  I've known Aaron Kay for for over a decade, you know, years
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  before we we started working together formally.
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  He's a brilliant company builder who has a has a genuine knack
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  for identifying emerging areas of medicine and areas that will
• 10:09
  be of interest, you know, to investors in pharma.
• 10:13
  In both of those cases, these were therapeutic areas we'd
• 10:17
  already followed closely, and so we were well prepared to assess
• 10:21
  that the value prop and move quickly.
• 10:24
  Carol and Rays have gone on to do some really great things in
• 10:26
  their respective areas. Totally and thanks to the CE OS,
• 10:30
  Andrew and Ken respectively. So Aaron, Kay and I are actually
• 10:34
  working on it. You know, we're trying our luck
• 10:37
  again building another new company, which is currently in
• 10:40
  stealth mode, but hope to share more about that later this year.
• 10:44
  Ventex is, is a funny one. It started with a conversation
• 10:47
  on a biotech surf trip actually when he was Chief Business
• 10:50
  Officer of Ventex. Chris explained the work he was
• 10:53
  doing on on various immunology targets that were actually each
• 10:57
  in single asset shell companies. And his team's goal was to
• 11:01
  develop each of these very cheaply and try to sell them to
• 11:04
  pharma. And so actually over over a few
• 11:07
  margaritas, Chris and I discussed the potential
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  synergies of bringing assets together with, you know, the
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  appropriate funding and leadership.
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  And ultimately, ultimately my colleague and I worked with them
• 11:21
  Tix to to put the assets together into a new Co with a
• 11:24
  much larger vision and raise capital to build a leading
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  immunology company. Harmony was introduced by a
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  mutual friend in the industry that I've worked with for many
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  years, dating back to my days at Bebo Capital.
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  Harmony was was formed around a molecule that that was found in
• 11:41
  Europe and they really needed sophisticated and experienced
• 11:44
  biotech investors at the table for for the new Co launch and
• 11:47
  and build a palace came out of the University of Pennsylvania
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  where I trained and was a company I'd followed for years
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  before becoming an investor actually.
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  And so I've gotten to know the CEO Cedric and the rest of the
• 11:59
  management team. And as they started de risking
• 12:02
  their approach over time was in a position to move pretty
• 12:05
  quickly to lead the financing. And so it was beneficial to have
• 12:09
  already developed a rapport with Cedric when it came time to to
• 12:13
  to fund the company from our perspective.
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  So I guess as I reflect on these investments, I think one of the
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  takeaways is that if you're able to consistently add value and
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  bring much more than capital to the table, operators and company
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  builders will want you to bring you into the fold early on.
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  That and I guess to surround yourself with brilliant people
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  is is I'm really fortunate to work with amazing company
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  builders and Co investors and all these examples.
• 12:44
  You know, at the end of the day, it's, it's truly, really is just
• 12:47
  a relationship business. Also I and, and maybe lastly,
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  you know, just importantly, with each of these companies, we've
• 12:55
  proactively landscaped the relevant therapeutic area.
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  We've developed core hypotheses and felt like we had a good
• 13:01
  sense for what pharma was looking for in these areas.
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  And so if we hadn't already done that work and developed that
• 13:08
  internal conviction around these spaces, it it would have been
• 13:13
  difficult to move quickly when the opportunities presented
• 13:16
  themselves. And so this actually enabled us
• 13:19
  to be founding Series A investors in in many of those
• 13:22
  examples. OK.
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  And I know you sit on the board of a number of the companies
• 13:27
  you've personally invested in. How much support do you give to
• 13:30
  to those companies? Yeah, it's, it's probably a
• 13:35
  better question for the management teams of the
• 13:37
  companies to see how they answer it.
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  But I would say, you know, it it from my perspective in most of
• 13:43
  these examples that the months immediately before and after the
• 13:46
  initial investment thesis or the times when we got really
• 13:49
  involved primarily to help build the team and set the strategy.
• 13:54
  And the most important way we're really able to add value is, is
• 13:57
  helping find the right leaders for the organization.
• 13:59
  So, for example, you know, for the Caro, we were able to
• 14:03
  convince Andrew Chang, who is the CMO Chief medical officer of
• 14:06
  Gilead at the time, to leave his role to be the CEO of Acara.
• 14:12
  That set the company on a whole new trajectory, having Andrew
• 14:15
  and his Clinops team from Gilead spearheading Acara's clinical
• 14:19
  development. They're truly gifted drug
• 14:23
  developers and, and we're very fortunate to, to, to, to have
• 14:26
  them running the company. There's a, there's actually a
• 14:30
  funny story. I'll go a bit of a tangent here.
• 14:32
  So my wife Sylvie is a is a great cook and I think I really
• 14:36
  started falling in love with her after she made me her her sort
• 14:40
  of famous grilled lamb sandwich for the first time.
• 14:42
  And so when we were recruiting Andrew to be the CEO of Acara
• 14:45
  while he was still at Gilead, we had him over to our home in in
• 14:49
  San Francisco for dinner and my wife made the lamb sandwich.
• 14:54
  Yeah, he joined the company not long after that.
• 14:57
  And so, you know, the rest was history, as they say.
• 15:00
  I rolled off the board of Acara shortly after IPO, but Andrew
• 15:04
  went on to to do incredible things with the company even
• 15:07
  since then. And it's a great molecule.
• 15:09
  It's now valued around $4 billion as a public company.
• 15:12
  And I guess something about that the lamb sandwich gets people to
• 15:15
  commit. But a similar process actually
• 15:19
  happened with Ray's bio kind of going down this theme, you know,
• 15:22
  during the diligence process before the series, AI spent a
• 15:26
  few months down in San Diego and we were able to recruit to join
• 15:30
  Canada CEO concurrent with the financing.
• 15:33
  Ken's an incredible operator, really just gifted and he's now
• 15:39
  a close friend. And you know, it was a long
• 15:41
  process to recruit him into an early endeavour like that, but
• 15:45
  definitely one of the the most important and pivotal decisions
• 15:49
  we can make and, and one of the best ways we can add value.
• 15:52
  That company's also went on to have a great trajectory.
• 15:56
  And you know, I think Ken appreciates the value we bring
• 15:59
  to the table and we're now working together on, on a new
• 16:03
  company called Candid Therapeutics that I that I serve
• 16:06
  on the board of in general, you know, I would just say one of
• 16:10
  the positive externalities that comes with being so actively
• 16:13
  involved with each company is that as long as you're adding
• 16:16
  value, investors and operators want to work with you again.
• 16:20
  And when I think about the CE OS we've discussed, you know,
• 16:22
  whether it's, can it raise Andrew Decaro, John Jacobs at
• 16:26
  Harmony, Cedric and Appellus, you know, the executive team
• 16:29
  from Ventex. Each of these leaders and
• 16:33
  leadership teams are really true friends outside of work and have
• 16:36
  been an important source of of new investments now and and
• 16:39
  guidance over time. Very good, It must have been a
• 16:42
  great sandwich that your wife made.
• 16:45
  Yeah, if you're ever in San Francisco, you know, we're happy
• 16:48
  to see what what, what we can do for you.
• 16:50
  Yeah, for sure. And talk us through so, so
• 16:53
  you've been in several high profile acquisitions now.
• 16:56
  Can you talk us through from a venture perspective, how you
• 16:59
  evaluate when a company is ripe for acquisition versus when you
• 17:03
  continue for independent growth? Oh, that's a great question in a
• 17:09
  bit nuanced, but generally I would say, I do believe in the
• 17:13
  adage that great companies are bought, not sold though you
• 17:20
  know, I would say a company can still prepare itself for a
• 17:22
  potential acquisition. You know, when we make a new
• 17:25
  investment, we typically have a good amount of conviction around
• 17:28
  farmers interest in the therapeutic area and maybe most
• 17:31
  importantly the types of data and capabilities the company
• 17:34
  needs to generate to to demonstrate that to pharma to
• 17:38
  mitigate their concerns. As a board member, this is one
• 17:42
  of the important inputs as we develop our our clinical
• 17:45
  development strategy and and manufacturing plan.
• 17:50
  I would say, you know, generally pharma has great capabilities in
• 17:54
  late stage development and commercialization.
• 17:57
  And so there could often be this natural partnering point that's
• 17:59
  a win win after a biotech demonstrates clinical proof of
• 18:03
  concept data and earlier studies.
• 18:05
  However, having a viable path forward without a partnership
• 18:09
  required enables our companies to have leverage in these
• 18:13
  discussions and turn down options that we don't think are
• 18:15
  fair value. And so you know many times over
• 18:18
  the years my companies have have received early M&A offers that
• 18:22
  we didn't think were fair value and because we had a reasonable
• 18:25
  timeline and capital requirement to get to proof of concept data,
• 18:29
  we were able to independently get to the next catalyst.
• 18:33
  So like you know with a case like raised bio, the company has
• 18:36
  significant capital on the balance sheet and a viable path
• 18:39
  forward as an independent company.
• 18:42
  And that allowed us to get a relatively lucrative acquisition
• 18:45
  offer from BMS because we had a go forward strategy on our own.
• 18:50
  Ultimately though, as we consider the shareholder return
• 18:53
  for the acquisition that you know was within 3 1/2 years or
• 18:55
  so from the launch of the company, it felt like a good
• 18:58
  outcome and and a beneficial 1 to take for shareholders to take
• 19:03
  the transaction. But I still do feel sellers
• 19:09
  regret at times, you know, including with Ray's bio and
• 19:12
  maybe one always feels this way when you sell a company that
• 19:15
  you're really confident in. But either way, that sentiment I
• 19:18
  think helps the negotiation. Yeah.
• 19:22
  And can you talk? US through some Venbio secured
• 19:25
  the latest fund last year, 528 million.
• 19:29
  What are the primary goals for that fund, and how do you plan
• 19:32
  to leverage it to drive future advancements in biomedicine?
• 19:38
  Yeah. So I would say at a high level
• 19:41
  the goal is consistent with prior funds and that's really
• 19:44
  what we preach to our LP's as well.
• 19:47
  As mentioned, we plan to make 10 to 12 investments into companies
• 19:51
  with that are focused on validated biologic targets.
• 19:55
  This means our companies will typically be developing novel
• 19:58
  treatment technologies or modalities, yet that allows us
• 20:01
  to leverage known disease biology.
• 20:05
  You know we expect the companies as as I discussed will generate
• 20:09
  key de risking data within three to five years and are all in
• 20:13
  areas of key pharma interest. So we've now made our first few
• 20:18
  investments while they're in stealth mode, I can say they're
• 20:21
  consistent with, with the discussion earlier and some of
• 20:23
  the points I just made in each. We're working with Co investors
• 20:28
  and operators we've worked with in the past.
• 20:30
  For example, you know, I think I, I touched on this, I'm now
• 20:34
  working with the same Co founder of both Acaro and Raise and a
• 20:37
  new company focused on hematology that we're, we're
• 20:41
  really excited about. So if I could sum it all up, Fun
• 20:44
  5 we'll be. We'll be more of the same.
• 20:48
  OK. And managing A venture capital
• 20:51
  firm, I can imagine comes with high pressure intensive decision
• 20:55
  making. How do you personally handle
• 20:56
  that stress and maintain that focus?
• 21:01
  Yeah, really, really great, insightful question.
• 21:04
  Well, surfing definitely helps. No, but honestly, I think having
• 21:10
  a background as a clinician helps put things in context when
• 21:14
  treating, you know, a patient who's who's very sick or dying.
• 21:18
  That could be a whole different level of stress and pressure and
• 21:21
  I think helps put the stresses of investment for management in
• 21:25
  a different light. And hopefully that doesn't
• 21:29
  imply, you know, a lack of dedication or, or failing to
• 21:32
  take my responsibilities to our LP's very seriously.
• 21:36
  I take work very seriously. I'm truly passionate about what
• 21:39
  I do, but I actually think it's, it's important to put work in
• 21:44
  context and not get too high or low.
• 21:46
  As an investor, I've seen many investors burn out after
• 21:50
  failures as self doubt sort of starts to creep in and they have
• 21:55
  a really hard time taking appropriate risk.
• 21:58
  And so, you know, I think it's important to have confidence and
• 22:01
  trust in your decision making, your strategy, your process, and
• 22:05
  know that you're not going to add 100%.
• 22:08
  You know, there was a a recent speech by Roger Federer, I'm not
• 22:11
  sure if you saw that, where he said he's only won 54% of the
• 22:16
  points he's played during his career.
• 22:18
  And the key for his success was always thinking about the next
• 22:22
  serve. And so I think, you know, as an
• 22:24
  investor, if you get too stressed by some of the hard
• 22:26
  times or outcomes, it can really be debilitating.
• 22:29
  And so perspective here, I think can be beneficial.
• 22:33
  Yeah. And last question for you.
• 22:36
  So your mindset and approach to work I I achieve a critical to
• 22:40
  to what you do, What sets you apart from others in the field
• 22:44
  and how do you consistently maintain that drive?
• 22:49
  Yeah. So I, I, you know, I think, I
• 22:51
  think you're right that being an active board member and investor
• 22:56
  requires very challenging decisions at times.
• 23:00
  And I'm a, I'm a firm believer that if you're, I'm a firm
• 23:03
  believer that it's important to make decisions for the right
• 23:06
  reasons. And I've learned that if you do
• 23:10
  that and you tactfully communicate those reasons, hard
• 23:13
  feelings don't last after the emotions settle.
• 23:17
  And so ironically, some of the decisions and outcomes that I'm
• 23:20
  most proud of are the ones that were the most challenging to go
• 23:25
  through, like shutting a company down early on when the biology
• 23:28
  is not working as expected or, you know, terminating an
• 23:32
  operator. But it's deeply encouraging when
• 23:36
  those same operators and board members want to work with you
• 23:40
  again. And I think those tough
• 23:42
  decisions and conversations have been as important to my own
• 23:45
  success as as some of the great outcomes.
• 23:49
  You also asked how do I maintain my drive?
• 23:53
  And I think that comes from the fulfilment and gratitude that
• 23:56
  that that I feel in this role, deeply grateful to our limited
• 24:01
  partners for entrusting us with their capital and find a lot of
• 24:05
  fulfillment and honoring that trust.
• 24:08
  Many LP's have become very close personal friends of mine and the
• 24:12
  long term relationship that spans multiple funds, you know,
• 24:15
  fosters a unique bond and trust that I deeply value.
• 24:20
  Many of our LP's are successful, incredibly successful operators
• 24:23
  and investors themselves. And it's so I think relying on
• 24:26
  them for advice is definitely a privilege.
• 24:30
  I also got a lot of fulfillment from the strong personal
• 24:32
  relationships that I felt with the operators and Co investors
• 24:35
  on these journeys. And you know, whether it's
• 24:38
  Andrew Chang from Akero coming over to Pacifica where I live
• 24:41
  for a hike last week, or John Jacobs, who's the former CEO of
• 24:45
  Harmony and I texting pictures of steaks that we cooked over
• 24:48
  the weekend. You know, at the end of the day,
• 24:50
  it's all about the people you work with.
• 24:53
  And those relationships are formed through building a
• 24:55
  company together. And they're uniquely gratifying
• 24:59
  because you go through that journey together.
• 25:02
  And then lastly, I would say, you know, bringing new patient,
• 25:06
  new treatments to patients in need is, is, is profoundly
• 25:09
  rewarding. It ties back to the beginning of
• 25:11
  our discussion about motivating to go into this space.
• 25:15
  You know, I think I, I feel immensely fortunate to, to have
• 25:18
  contributed to building companies that have resulted in,
• 25:21
  in six FDA approvals. And I'm hearing directly from
• 25:25
  patients about how these treatments have transformed
• 25:28
  their lives is is incredibly motivating.
• 25:32
  So maybe, yeah, you don't like to wrap this up with a story on
• 25:36
  this topic since I'm obviously very fond of of telling stories.
• 25:42
  I was recently having lunch with with Manu Hanan, who's the CEO
• 25:47
  of Ice Bio, a company I'm on the board of.
• 25:49
  We got together in London recently and, you know, Manu is
• 25:53
  an amazing drug developer who's dedicated his life to vaccine
• 25:56
  development. And so when I asked him, you
• 25:59
  know, how's our clinical study going, his eyes lit up.
• 26:02
  And he said, you know, with this data, I believe our vaccine
• 26:05
  will, will improve many people's lives in the future.
• 26:07
  And, and that's how he gauges the, the company's success, how
• 26:11
  he gauges the success of his own career.
• 26:13
  And, and so I feel, you know, incredibly privileged to
• 26:16
  collaborate with people like Manu in contributing to, to
• 26:21
  health outcomes. You know, I'd say that's that's
• 26:23
  what really drives me at the end of the day.
• 26:26
  Yeah. Well, that was a terrific
• 26:27
  answer. And I think you've given a great
• 26:30
  perspective on how it is on the venture side, the growth at
• 26:33
  Venbio, you've obviously done had a lot of success with some
• 26:36
  of the companies that you've invested in, which I'm sure will
• 26:39
  continue as well. So look, it's been an absolute
• 26:41
  pleasure to have you on and thanks so much for helping us
• 26:44
  out. I've I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
• 26:46
  Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me.
• 26:47
  And, you know, really great questions and yeah, hope, hope
• 26:50
  to speak with you soon.