Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 168 - Photographing What's Real: Film, Trust, and Truth

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168 - Photographing What's Real: Film, Trust, and Truth · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

0:05
Casey Fatchett: I need to know what happened here. It's all
0:09
there, black and white, clear as crystal, not exactly. Oh, hello
0:16
there. Welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
0:19
host, Casey Fatchett, while you are with us, I'm going to
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challenge you to do two things that are very easy, quick and
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recommend the show to a new person. The reviews help us
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reach new listeners, which you can also do by suggesting the
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show to someone, then you can all join us for lots of
0:43
interesting conversations and adventures. Because in addition
0:46
to giving you interviews with amazing photographers from all
0:48
corners of the globe and providing lots of informative
0:51
and entertaining photography related information, I also go
0:54
on adventures with the crew of the starship Fibonacci. At the
0:57
moment, I'm trying to figure out who broke the new lighting gear
1:00
we picked up last time we made a supply stop, and F 2.0 is
1:04
obfuscating. To avoid telling the truth about what happened
1:07
here, you can't handle the truth. I assure you I can.
1:11
Speaking of the truth on this episode of the show, I speak
1:14
with photographer John Dolan about embracing what's real in
1:18
photography and letting go of expectations, trends and the
1:21
idea that every image needs to be perfect, that conversation
1:25
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4:25
Hello and welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
4:27
host, Casey Fatchett, and I am here today with wedding
4:31
photographer John Dolan. John, welcome to the show.
4:36
John Dolan: Really glad to be here. Casey, Thanks for Thanks
4:38
for inviting me.
4:39
Casey Fatchett: I'm excited, and it's going to be fun. Before we
4:41
get started, I'm going to roll the dice breaker. So 18, what is
4:47
the best investment in photography that you've made in
4:52
your career? Like, what is in your photography career? What do
4:55
you feel like the best choice or investment you've made is what.
5:00
John Dolan: Yeah. I mean, if we're talking equipment, there
5:02
was a
5:05
35 millimeter 1.4
5:09
sumo Lux I bought back in the 90s that I still use. That is
5:14
just the workhorse. I think investment though, I think
5:20
having faith in myself during all the downturns was the best
5:25
investment that I didn't give up that I've seen so many
5:27
photographers, you know, hit the wall, and then, luckily, I had
5:32
no options, because I'm not I have no other skills besides
5:35
photography. But between those two things, I'd say that's it.
5:39
Casey Fatchett: I think those are both investing in yourself
5:42
and believing that you can do it is extremely important. But
5:50
also, I really always tell people to invest in good glass,
5:54
because it just lasts forever. I've still got lenses that I've
5:57
had for 20 years, but I've also got lenses that I think I got as
6:02
a teenager when my mother first, like, gave me my first, like, 35
6:06
millimeter film camera that she found at some estate sale.
6:11
They're like, lenses from the like, 60s and 70s. Yeah, these
6:16
old Olympus cameras that are, I still use, they still like, they
6:20
still take a great photo. That's it, John, one of the things I
6:27
think, like sticks out of anybody who, like, follows your
6:31
work or has read anything that you've written about how you
6:38
feel about being a wedding photographer, it's that the word
6:41
true comes up a lot, and you want to be true to their lived
6:48
experience that the couple is having, rather than having some
6:52
idealized version of their wedding day.
6:57
John Dolan: Yeah, I never think I could make it better than
7:00
it's, what's the phrase, where it's just what I see on a
7:07
wedding day, without saying a word, without trying to
7:10
choreograph, anything is so much richer and so much more
7:15
believable than if I started art directing. And I do have this
7:20
belief that you have to lean into your strengths, and my
7:23
strengths have always been finding moments rather than
7:26
making more moments. But the true part of it is just this
7:32
basic tenet of my photography that I don't want to put forth
7:39
this kind of false lie. I want to make pictures that resonate
7:44
with people on a deeper level than just the you know what,
7:48
what things look like. So it's it's a challenge.
7:51
Casey Fatchett: I totally ascribe to this belief as well,
7:54
and I think that is the while different from your approach. I
7:59
think it's also very similar in my intent as a wedding
8:03
photographer is very much to capture the real relationship
8:07
between the two people getting married, and, like, the real
8:10
emotions that you're seeing. And I mean, it's now become such a
8:13
buzzword that I've had to change, like, the copy on my
8:17
website, because I used to use the word authentic. Like, yeah,
8:21
a lot. Now everybody's using word authentic, and it's like,
8:23
okay, well, now I gotta switch it up to something else.
8:26
John Dolan: Well, also there sometimes people are faking the
8:28
authenticity. Exactly. It's like a filter, the authentic filter,
8:33
yeah, I
8:34
Casey Fatchett: mean, you use the word authentic, but there's
8:36
this is obviously staged and posed. And, you know, like,
8:40
what, what's authentic about that? Like, I want to get real
8:43
reactions from people. Like, even, even when, like, for me,
8:46
when I do portraits, a lot of time, I'm telling people to,
8:51
like, think about something or, like, do something together,
8:55
like the couple, like, get like them to do something that's real
8:58
for them, think about something that's really important to them,
9:02
and then I'm just the guy capturing the stuff. I'm not
9:04
posing them.
9:06
John Dolan: But I would go even a step further, which is,
9:10
you know, portrait sessions, one thing where people may need some
9:13
direction, but on a wedding day, if I have to tell people to
9:17
think about something on their wedding day, then that it seems
9:24
unnecessary, because people should be full of emotion,
9:27
thoughts and and feelings. So I try to give people that space to
9:35
I mean, the only direction I give is you can do nothing
9:37
wrong, except if you're trying to please me or trying to pose
9:41
for me. Don't do this for me. You guys are experiencing one
9:45
thing, whatever that is, is I'm going to find something
9:49
interesting in it. But if you're locked in and trying to put
9:53
forth this kind of prescribed look on your face, because
9:59
somebody. Told you to smell the other person's shampoo, or
10:03
whatever the prompts of the industry are. And I get this a
10:09
lot with people, where they say, What do you do if you have an
10:11
awkward couple? And I I love awkward, and I think that can be
10:16
leaned into and acknowledge the fact that being photographed is
10:21
weird, and I think it's useful for a photographer to be
10:24
photographed every once a while to feel what it feels like. It's
10:28
very intense and exposing and raw and and having empathy for
10:35
that, I think, is a really important part of the job.
10:38
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, you said the word that I use all the
10:42
time, empathy, like, have feeling like it's the most
10:46
important thing. Like I do, like an interview, I have a
10:49
questionnaire that I give to all my couples. It's like to get to
10:52
know, like, what's what are the things that bother you? What are
10:56
the things that like you don't like? What are the things that
10:58
you really do love like, so that I have a sense of who you are
11:01
beforehand, because, you know we talk and we get to know each
11:05
other, and so you feel a, you feel more comfortable when I'm
11:09
pointing the camera at you, yeah, and B, I also know what's
11:12
going to sort of like, set you off in a negative light, and
11:16
what I can say to turn you into Like, I'm more comfortable. I'm
11:21
not even thinking about
11:23
John Dolan: so you remember all the stuff that's on the
11:25
questionnaire? Because I never remember anything that anybody
11:28
ever tells me,
11:31
pretty much, in my brain,
11:32
Casey Fatchett: one of my curses, my wife always like,
11:35
says I should I need to use it for good more often than is
11:38
like, I just remember those things. Just remember stuff. And
11:45
it's, uh, yeah, it's just remembering, like, what
11:48
somebody's favorite movie is, being able to pop a line out
11:51
from a quote, something from, oh, you love, you know, the the
11:55
other guys with Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg. And I'll just
11:58
say, you know, like, Yeah, this is Terry's corner. It hums or
12:03
whatever, just like some is pulling out some line from
12:06
somewhere like that makes people just kind of like, drop the
12:09
tension. Yeah. That's, yeah, that's the goal. That's
12:12
definitely the goal. Yeah. And I think that that a lot of wedding
12:17
photographers, again, it's something that gets overused in
12:20
our industry, is the word storytelling.
12:25
But I think from looking at your work,
12:29
it seems more while it is, it tells a story, but I think it's
12:34
through observation, rather than influence. And do you like, how
12:41
do you because there's the I'm somebody who fights against this
12:48
from an anxiety level to not be involved in anything. And I
12:52
would love to, like, stay completely outside of it. Yeah,
12:59
that's where I would love to live, but there are times when I
13:03
feel that I am drawn into like, I need to save the couple, or I
13:08
need to like, Oh, hey, let's, let's go somewhere. And like,
13:12
you're, you're obviously being overwhelmed by Yeah, other
13:15
people, or do something that I feel like I need to get involved
13:19
in some way. Do you ever
13:22
John Dolan: I think I go in and out, I think there's it's not
13:25
just one thing. And I think that that's one of the skills I've
13:29
learned over all these years, is just like you're saying, you
13:32
read the vibe of people. You could tell how they're breathing
13:35
and how what their anxiety level is, and you react to that. But I
13:42
think at this point, I feel like a trusted family member when I'm
13:48
with the couple, and I've gained that trust over a glass of wine
13:53
before the wedding, you know, with whatever at engagement
13:56
session and the rehearsal dinner, which I love, and even
14:01
rehearsals at the church, I think that's a fascinating way
14:05
to get the sense of people. So I'm working my way closer and
14:09
closer into this trust with them, so that I can know when
14:15
they need me to back off and not photograph and I think that's a
14:20
skill that's important, and when to not blink when something
14:26
really interesting has something complicated. Families are
14:28
complicated, and that's fascinating and and the people
14:34
who hire me are looking for me not to shy away from complex,
14:38
emotionally complicated stuff. So, you know, yeah, you have to
14:42
build that into the relationship.
14:44
Casey Fatchett: I think that's a skill that a lot of
14:47
photographers could stand to learn more about. And it's
14:51
something that doesn't, it's not something that you just, I think
14:54
that some people have a natural ability to just sort of move in
14:59
and out of that space. Ways, but I think that there's also like,
15:02
the more like you said, like you've honed it, yeah.
15:07
John Dolan: I mean, let me ask you a question, because you
15:09
speak to a lot of different photographers, I think there's,
15:12
there is a lot of fear involved and a lot of anxiety with
15:16
photographers, and so when they get afraid, they play it safe,
15:22
or they'll go back to their normal you know, this is what
15:25
I've always done the past, even though it's not the best thing.
15:28
I'm going to put them over and by the window and do this same
15:31
portrait I've done before, and I know it worked that time. So
15:37
they step and repeat sort of thing. The the the My philosophy
15:43
is that each wedding is its own trip, and I have to shoot
15:49
accordingly. Of course, I repeat myself. I have lots of pictures
15:53
of brides walking away from me and that sort of thing, but I
15:57
try to take risks at every wedding to keep my pulse up and
16:03
to keep me from being bored and boring, and I try to encourage
16:08
photographers to take risks, because you're not going to fail
16:11
like it's really hard to blow it you have eight hours, but at
16:17
this point, if I delivered really safe pictures to one of
16:20
my clients, I would feel disappointed my wife, when she
16:25
goes through my picture, she'd be disappointed in me. And I'm
16:27
sure the couple would be like I thought they were going to be
16:30
something special.
16:33
Casey Fatchett: I think that there's a level of from looking
16:38
at your work, it's just that there's a level of I mean, your
16:43
book is called the perfect, imperfect. It's like, but it is
16:46
that sort of like, hey, these these moments, which I think a
16:51
lot of photographers shy away from, and is like, Oh, this
16:56
wasn't in the right spot, or this, the light wasn't perfect
16:59
here, or the light wasn't great. So I'm not even going to bother
17:02
to take a shot, you know, even though there might be something
17:04
amazing happening. Like, Oh, I love, you know, I'm Yeah, it's
17:08
not, like, no, shoot it. Like, you might, might get it. You
17:12
might not. I think that that's, I mean, kind of leads me to my
17:17
next question I was going to have, is, you still shoot
17:21
John Dolan: predominantly film, I'd say half and half at this
17:25
point, basically, bad light, digital, good light, film.
17:29
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's such a I mean, it's something that I
17:32
get asked a lot by younger photographers who say, like, oh
17:35
well, because I started shooting film back many you know, in the
17:41
previous millennium.
17:44
And, like, Well, how did you know you got the show?
17:48
You didn't, you just didn't. And you, you took a picture, you
17:53
knew that you either screwed it up or you got it right, and you
17:57
had to move on to the next photo. Yeah, like that. And
17:59
that's a sort of like, I like speaking to your what you're
18:02
talking about, like, going into the safety zone of what like
18:06
people are used to, into that groove. And I have found myself
18:10
over like, you know when you have a long career, you know
18:14
that there were times when you like, I know that there were
18:18
moments in my career, like during a wedding where I sat
18:21
there, like, what am I doing? I'm on autopilot, right? I'm
18:26
just, like, not really, like, I'm just sort of going, like,
18:30
oh, this. And I had to, like, bust myself out of it. And like,
18:33
All right, let's do something. Let's do something different.
18:35
Let's like, let's really break this up and try a different
18:38
thing. And I think back to like, you know, I only shoot film on
18:43
like, special request at this point because my anxiety. I know
18:48
that, like, my anxiousness, of like, if I shot like a mostly
18:51
film, whatever, I would probably be, like, get super anxious
18:53
about it, about making sure that I was having a deliverable
18:57
product and but when i i had a personal project that I worked
19:03
on last year that I shot entirely in film, those all
19:08
expired that I found at my parents house after they passed
19:10
away, and it created such a like need to get out of My head,
19:19
yeah, and let things happen. Yeah, that it's, it's such a
19:23
different mindset. And I, you know, I think that all
19:27
photographers should at some point try film and,
19:30
John Dolan: well, I mean, if you remember that the basis of
19:33
shooting film is you fail and you feel ill. You feel
19:39
physically ill when the film comes back blank or underexposed
19:42
something, and you learn from that gut feeling, and then you
19:47
do it again and again, and you get positive feelings and
19:50
negative feelings because you've risked something and you're
19:55
rewarded and the the pleasure of getting a beautiful. Role film,
20:01
roll of film back is so deep that it's just, it's not the
20:07
same thing with digital, from my point of view, there's a lower
20:11
risk and lower reward. So, I mean, I was, I'm a film native.
20:17
You know, it's like, I've done it since I was 15, and I spent
20:20
six years in the darkroom professionally. So it's so deep
20:24
inside me, I had the opposite problem of having a hard time. I
20:29
mean, several years of struggling with digital because
20:33
I kept overexposing by a stop, which is not a good idea. And I
20:38
see people under exposing film. I'm like, Come on, just push
20:42
over.
20:44
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, just like these you need to, like, I think
20:47
that's it's difference in the mediums is that, you know, like,
20:51
with film, you're used to overexposing a little bit like,
20:54
hey, let's push this. It's built in Yeah, and, and, like, I'm
21:00
taking film photos of my dog, who is black. She's like, jet
21:04
black, and it's like, I gotta overexpose A for the film and
21:08
for her, yeah, to be able to see any details in there. Like,
21:11
because it's, it's a, it's a whole other thing. And, like, my
21:14
mind, like, I very good at math, was like, it's like, the amount
21:19
of math that you do, like, when you're sitting there shooting
21:21
film, is like, Okay, why do is like, Okay, why don't I Wait?
21:24
Hold on, is this area over here? It's like, you know, all of my
21:27
film cameras except one I think, have no, like, working light
21:31
meter in them. Oh yeah, they've all burnt out, like, many years
21:34
ago. But I think back to what the imperfection of a photo. I
21:43
have pictures from long ago, when I was doing weddings on
21:46
film, where I sit there and look at this picture that it's out of
21:50
focus, like there's some motion blur, couples dancing, but you
21:56
can just really see how into each other they are, yes, just
22:01
in their hands, the like half of a facial expression that you're
22:05
getting that's in focus, or whatever. I'm just like, that's
22:08
an amazing photo. Like, to me, that is like, you know, getting
22:12
back that role, and people be like, well, like somebody I knew
22:15
when I was, when I met my shot, this picture, particular photo,
22:18
looked at and goes, well, it's out of focus. I'm like, I don't
22:21
care,
22:22
John Dolan: because you felt it. You felt it in your gut. Yeah,
22:25
yeah. I mean, I've been going through a lot of old pictures
22:28
just clearing out my studio. As you can see, there's there's
22:35
pictures that I thought were failures. Are they have a
22:38
resonance after 25 years, and I send them to couples out of the
22:42
blue, just like, here's a picture I found, and they freak
22:45
out because it's, it's, it has the soul of the moment. You can
22:50
hear people laughing. You can hear the music, and
22:55
Casey Fatchett: it's a, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it just
22:57
takes you right back.
22:59
John Dolan: Well, because it's really light, embedded on grain
23:02
and emulsion, and it's, you know, it's physically sitting
23:06
there on the emulsion. And that's a, you know, it's that
23:09
physical element that I think makes it all the more real.
23:13
Casey Fatchett: Well, we can get into the romance of film and the
23:17
energy that has come off of like a person, or whatever the
23:22
subject is, just it, there's been an interaction there with
23:25
the film. And it's, to me that is, you know, that is part of
23:32
the like, it's a, it's a chemical miracle, yeah, it's
23:37
just of, you know, just things interacting with one another in
23:41
John Dolan: a way. But I do love digital in those low lights.
23:46
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, when I can bump it up to like 12,000 plus,
23:52
because that's not always a I also tried to tell people, like,
23:56
when I first started as a professional photographer, I was
24:01
doing headshots, and I was doing because I was an actor, and so
24:06
it was very easy for me to get headshot clients, but I also
24:09
photographed live music. Yeah, me too, if you learn your
24:14
exposure triangle really fast, yeah, when you're shooting like
24:18
live music, lights changing things are happening. People go
24:21
like, well, what would you do if you do if you needed to change
24:23
your film speed? Like you couldn't, that's just it. You
24:27
there's, there's no, there's no choice. And like, I think that
24:31
limitation, in some ways, can lead to
24:36
being more creative and feeling
24:41
you have to, you have to think more than just like, sort of
24:45
like that. You can't go into that
24:48
easy zone and sort of coast.
24:58
John Dolan: Yeah, sorry. Uh,
25:05
Casey Fatchett: do you think that shooting film like really
25:10
changes the emotional tone, or is it more about how it forces
25:15
you to work while you're
25:19
John Dolan: I mean, I shoot both simultaneously, so I'm flipping
25:22
back, I'm almost sketching with my digital camera, and then if
25:27
I'm loving it, I'll switch to film, or it's, it's quite an
25:31
intuitive back and forth. So I don't, I'm not really hard line
25:37
about it anymore, and it's almost like my my digital skills
25:42
have gone up over the years. And so the film is, you know, the
25:47
yield per roll is really, really solid now, because I'm using it
25:52
when I know it's it's really going to happen, you know, it's
25:54
right, yeah, yeah. And it's just this. It's just this deeper
25:58
flavor has more flavor to it for me, in in the right lighting
26:02
situations,
26:03
Casey Fatchett: it's more like a different, I mean, different
26:05
recipes. You might be preparing the same dish, but you're using
26:11
different spicing exactly. I always feel like, I mean, when
26:15
people ask me, like, what I feel the difference between film and
26:18
digital is like, I feel like digital can be colder. It
26:22
doesn't have the same warmth to it. And when people go, What do
26:27
you mean? Like, if you don't know, it's kind of hard to
26:31
describe, but there is something to it that just has a like this,
26:37
John Dolan: live, yeah, feeling, yeah. I mean, I think people
26:43
it's it's great to experiment with. I think it's hard to just
26:47
go cold turkey and start from scratch, because if it takes
26:52
years to really understand what's happening. But I love it
26:56
when people do, and I encourage it, but I also know what people
27:01
magnificent pictures people can do on digital.
27:03
Casey Fatchett: So there's a place,
27:07
yeah, you say, like, your approach to, like, wedding day
27:10
is like to go in with a blank slate? Yeah, is it a truly blank
27:14
slate? And I'm just curious, because some people, like, you
27:17
know, have, like, even just kind of an idea of, like, what you
27:20
know was going on. But you go in and just like, see how things
27:25
unfold. And like asking me,
27:29
John Dolan: I mean, the planners give me a timeline, which I
27:33
don't really read that often. It's just, I love to just know
27:38
what time are they putting on the dress, or what time is a
27:41
couple getting dressed, I'll come an hour, hour and a half
27:44
before that. That's all I need to know, because otherwise, once
27:49
I'm on board with them, I'm not leaving them, and I'm not going
27:53
to look at my phone and keep track of saying, Oh, the cake
27:56
cutting is in 20 minutes. I'm just there absorbing and riding
28:00
along. And, you know, half the time I shoot solo. Sometimes I
28:07
use second shooters. Big weddings, I'll have more people.
28:10
But even with that, I don't direct my second shooters. I
28:15
hire people who know my philosophy, and I just say, you
28:19
know, go where I'm not and I'll see you for dinner 1030 so I
28:27
just have this mind. It's really about a mindset. The mindset is
28:32
you get one night of your life like this for a couple and where
28:37
everybody you love is in one place. And how does that make
28:40
you feel? How are you experiencing that you have
28:44
expectations based on movies and social media, and how's the
28:49
reality versus that expectation? And I watch it in real time, and
28:55
since I've talked to people about this philosophy
28:58
beforehand, people often will talk to me during their wedding,
29:02
going, oh yeah, this is weird. It's going so fast. How do we
29:06
slow it down? And I just say, you can't just so, you know,
29:12
dive in and that. But I think it's this, it's my awareness
29:17
that not everything needs to be photographed. I don't really
29:24
obsess on shot lists. I tell people, are there three things I
29:28
shouldn't miss because I'm going to get everything else after 400
29:31
you know, 40 years of doing this like, it's not that hard. If
29:35
people get dressed, they get married, they get to party.
29:38
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, there's, there's things that
29:43
that shot list is the thing that that they still send me like,
29:47
oh, the first kiss. Like, yes, I'm gonna get that. I've done
29:51
this a few times, a few times, and I know that that's like,
29:54
that's an important thing for you to do. I asked the same
29:57
question, is there something that I might not. Allies, right?
30:01
It's really important to you, right? Oh, there's a detail
30:04
item. Like, this is my, my dad passed away, and I have
30:09
something in my, like, a brooch in my bouquet that, you know,
30:14
signifies him. And I really was, like, a photo, like, okay,
30:18
great. That's something I wouldn't have noticed or no
30:20
doubt, unless you said something. So those are my like
30:24
questions that I asked. Okay, but what should i What might I
30:27
not know about, or what should I definitely
30:30
John Dolan: not but by the same token, I've found over the years
30:32
that even if I miss that picture people, if you give people
30:38
something so magnificent that wasn't on the shot list. They're
30:42
not going to say, Oh, you didn't get a picture of Uncle Bill's
30:45
ring on his left hand or something. It's this. It's a,
30:48
it's a quantity versus quality thing. And I think before a
30:53
wedding, people have read so many, so many blog posts. Or
30:58
however, people get information that they think they need,
31:02
everything that they've spent money on to be photographed. And
31:06
I'm telling you, been married 3534 years, I would never once
31:12
think about what isn't in the pictures. I only think about
31:15
what is in the pictures.
31:17
Casey Fatchett: It's the I mean, I'm coming up on my 15th wedding
31:23
anniversary, and we've been together for almost 20 will be
31:27
20 this year, but it's yeah, the same thing you think, I don't
31:30
sit back and go, like, I really wish we had more flower photos,
31:34
yeah? Like, that's those sorts of things. Like, it doesn't
31:36
John Dolan: really they existed that night and then they didn't,
31:40
right?
31:40
Casey Fatchett: It's the people and, like, the relationships and
31:44
like all those sorts of things that, really, I try to, I try to
31:50
impart that information on to, like, couples when I'm working
31:54
with them, and be like, listen, yeah, yes, this is a lovely
31:58
thing that you've done, but like, in the end, yeah, what I
32:02
think that you want? Of course, I've run into a few over the
32:04
years who are just like, No, it's got to be absolutely need
32:08
that and but that's brings me to the My next question, like, how
32:12
do you and maybe at this point in your career, like, people are
32:16
coming to you for this, so that's not as big of a deal. But
32:18
like, when you were first, kind of, like, making this point of,
32:24
like, this is how you should, like, earn the trust of a couple
32:29
to say, like, Hey, I'm really not doing a shot list. Like,
32:33
sort of like, I'm gonna come in here and I'm just, I'm gonna
32:36
observe what's going on, and I'm gonna like this, how I'm gonna
32:40
capture things. Well, a
32:42
John Dolan: couple things. One, in the 90s, there was no such
32:45
thing as a shot list that was kind of invented in the 2008
32:49
era. There was maybe a there was a very brief timeline too. It's
32:56
just but also, since I came out of the magazine world, the
33:00
people who hired me knew my magazine skills. And the
33:05
magazine skills was that you build a whole body of pictures
33:10
that work together to create this storytelling, but in a in a
33:15
really beautiful way. But they trusted that I had that skill
33:21
already. So there was a, I mean, so many of my early clients in
33:26
the first five or 10 years were people in the magazine industry
33:29
or in the art world or writers. So I had a built in pool of
33:36
people who were visually sophisticated, who didn't
33:39
specifically did not want the cheesy wedding pictures from the
33:42
80s. So I was part of this kind of reinvention of wedding
33:47
photography in the 90s, which was a rejection of the tripod,
33:52
middle of the aisle, stand still, big flash, six by seven
33:57
portrait. So, you know, I was, I had a lot of advantages, because
34:03
what was, what had come before me was so bad, I think people
34:07
are starting now. It's a, you know, the industry is blooming.
34:10
It's like a thriving renaissance of wedding photography. And
34:16
there's great stuff everywhere. So it's, it's a, it's a tricky
34:19
time to just burst in and do something new. But, you know,
34:23
that's the challenge. How do you reinvent?
34:25
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think there's, well, I mean, we look
34:28
at things like embracing imperfection. I think that the
34:35
we see things like these, like out of focus photos, or like the
34:39
Dutch angles and things like that, where I think of it, what
34:44
I always tell people is intention, right? Your intention
34:48
is to like, just take a out of focus picture that is not
34:54
serving the couple right. Like, and I think that there's a
34:58
nostalgia for a. People look back at, like, candid photos,
35:03
family photos from like, the 80s or 70s or whatever, and they
35:06
say, like, Oh, this is kind of out of focus. And so it's not
35:09
perfect and whatever. Yeah, it is. That's great, but you don't
35:13
go in there and just like, throw your focus to, like, the all the
35:16
way to the foreground, so that everything is blurry. Yeah, I
35:19
John Dolan: think there's difference between out of focus
35:22
and blurry. I think for me, my blurs come from my excitement
35:26
out of focus is lazy, or it can be just a crutch that but I
35:34
mean, you have to have certain level of professionality.
35:38
Casey Fatchett: But I think that people fall into those trends.
35:43
Oh, like, imperfect is a thing now, I know
35:45
John Dolan: we're very worried about, yeah,
35:50
I think you're right that the intention has to be,
35:55
I, you know, you just, you have to, there's some sort of
35:59
craftsmanship that I think is important. If we're a carpenter,
36:02
you're not going to make a table that's going to collapse when
36:04
you put something heavy on it, or, you know, there has to be a
36:08
and photography has no rules about that. There's no guild you
36:14
have to pass a test to you can buy a camera, set up a website,
36:18
and you're in business. So you need to have those trusted
36:22
friends who say, You know what? This actually just a really bad
36:25
picture. And it's useful. Every once, we'll have somebody just
36:29
say, this is not as good as you think it is.
36:33
Casey Fatchett: Well, I mean, what? It kind of to continue
36:35
your analogy about the like a table. It's like there can be
36:39
imperfections in the grain, yes, or whatever. But it doesn't mean
36:44
that the table doesn't like, isn't the table? Yeah? It
36:48
doesn't mean like, Oh, I just like, yeah, just, I didn't just
36:51
toss this together. Like, here's my deconstructed look at a
36:56
table. It's, it's just a bunch of pieces of wood, yeah, you
37:00
still have a functional table, even if it has imperfections in
37:04
it. Like, yes, this is some knotty wood, or it's, you know,
37:07
whatever, like, that's, that's what brings, I think the the
37:11
this is this, I'm writing new copy for my website, as we that
37:18
those imperfections speak to the uniqueness, right of the
37:26
product?
37:28
John Dolan: Yeah, I mean, just to get back to the roots of the
37:32
imperfect for me was that I was, I'd be looking at a contact
37:36
sheet, and I'd see one picture of a group people that was
37:40
perfect. And then there's a frame afterwards where they all
37:43
thought I was finished, and I was like, that's the real
37:47
family. And I remember seeing this back in the 90s, a very
37:53
stiff, Dutch family, very formal. And then the minute I
37:57
kind of put the camera down, they all started laughing, and I
37:59
took one more picture, and it was the essence of that family.
38:02
It was so much who they really were, and they were pretending
38:07
to be this formal thing because they thought that's the way the
38:10
photographer wanted it.
38:12
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, that's the thing that I always tell people,
38:14
like, even in relation to prompting people and telling
38:16
those things better, is to shoot through the moment. Yeah,
38:20
absolutely. Because usually it's the moment after where you see
38:26
the real reactions of people and who they like, how they really
38:29
interrelate, especially when it comes to families, yeah, that
38:32
moment when they all sort of like, oh, we can relax and be
38:35
ourselves. And now that the camera is no longer, they don't
38:39
feel that the cameras on them anymore, and then they start to
38:43
be themselves.
38:43
John Dolan: Yeah, but I think it's also
38:48
important to recognize that so many people have been
38:52
bossed around and beaten up by aggressive photographers who get
38:58
frustrated during the family pictures and force people to do
39:02
things and get angry when somebody's late or something. I
39:07
just think that how you act as a photographer begets a certain
39:13
reaction. And you just do that in your calculus. If I do this,
39:19
then these people feel this, if I do this, and, you know, if I
39:23
use this voice, or if I get gnarly, the pictures are going
39:28
downhill. So, you know, there's a lot of interplay with that.
39:32
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's your attitude has a lot to do with
39:37
it. Again, I think, I think we're on the same page that we'd
39:41
rather be further away from,
39:44
John Dolan: and graceful and kind and yeah, be yes.
39:49
Casey Fatchett: There was a
39:52
one example I bring up from a wedding with people is like
39:55
people say, Have you ever been in a really difficult situation?
39:58
I had a bro. I'd have pretty much a meltdown in the middle of
40:02
Central Park. Wow, she was just like, screaming at me and like,
40:08
like, just like, she is a lot of pressure. There was a lot of
40:12
pressure for the day to be perfect. There's a lot of
40:15
pressure and her, not for me, but just like, around her, and I
40:21
just, like, stopped and, like, looked in her eyes, and I was
40:24
like, Hey, what's going on? Like, what is this really about?
40:29
Nice? Let's talk for a minute, like, and I was like, just put
40:32
the camera down. Like, let's talk. Like, how do we get to a
40:36
place where you're enjoying the day again? Yeah, amazing. And we
40:40
were separate from where the groom was, like, with the groom
40:43
and the groomsmen were off doing something else. And I told my
40:46
assistant, like, go get the groom, bring him here, because I
40:51
knew from like, interacting with them at their engagement session
40:54
that he just has a way to just like, Yeah, bring her back and
40:59
diffuse whatever. And I just talked to her and tells like he
41:03
came running over and he's like, Hey, babe, what's going on? And
41:06
like, she just, like, it all melted away and amazing. But
41:12
like, having that a the knowledge that's
41:15
John Dolan: that role of the therapist, though, that
41:18
photographer, therapist,
41:21
Casey Fatchett: comedian, here's, like, a your therapist.
41:24
You're like, I've sewn dresses back together. It's you do a
41:28
lot. You have a lot of things that you do, but don't take
41:31
pictures, but like being a human being
41:36
John Dolan: exactly, yeah, it's not that hard. It's put that in
41:40
your toolkit.
41:41
Casey Fatchett: But I think that some people don't realize that,
41:44
like,
41:45
John Dolan: well, that gets back to this thing of that they're
41:47
they want to do such a great job, that they overwork, that
41:51
they over you know, they become this kind of slightly manic
41:58
being, but they don't recognize the fact that it's a live
42:03
performance. When you're a photographer, you are being seen
42:07
by everybody. Your how your vibe is makes set people into a good
42:14
vibe or a anxious vibe and and I think that just if I can help
42:19
people get just lessen the aggression of the photographer.
42:23
Because I I've heard that from so many guests and and my
42:30
daughter's in that zone of going to a lot of weddings, so she
42:32
reports back about, you know, the how the photographers move
42:36
so aggressively, and they yelling and everybody getting
42:41
these shots and stuff. So, you know, I just think you'll get
42:45
the pictures with, uh, there's that great old phrase of that,
42:48
honey will get you more than salt will Yeah. And I think that
42:52
that's an important part of our, our, our role, yeah.
42:56
Casey Fatchett: I think that it's also, I mean, self
43:00
importance is sort of like a can be a real problem, and feeling
43:05
like you're not the reason the people are here today, right? As
43:08
a photographer, you're documenting what's going on
43:12
here, yeah? Like, leave your ego in the Yeah. Like the planner
43:15
who I worked with on that wedding I mentioned with a bride
43:17
at the belt was like, Oh my gosh. Like you, I work with so
43:21
and so and so and so, big name photographers, whatever that,
43:24
you know they she spoke to them like that, they would have just
43:26
left. And I'm like, well, that's really bad of them. Yeah. I was
43:33
like, I wouldn't hire somebody. Okay, I definitely wouldn't
43:36
recommend that to me, because everybody has bad days.
43:39
Sometimes you have a bad day on your wedding day, and like, you,
43:43
John Dolan: did you say that you were an actor in a previous
43:46
incarnation? Yes, yeah.
43:49
Because I think that's an interesting from the performance
43:53
aspect. It's, oh yeah.
43:54
Casey Fatchett: I think there's so many, there are so many
43:56
theater people in the wedding industry. Yes, it's it like I,
43:59
when I first got started in it like it was amazing, like all
44:02
these makeup artists who were like former, like theater
44:06
people, planners who are former theater people, other, other few
44:10
other photographers who were in theater but it's, it's, it is,
44:14
it's a performance thing. It is like a, you go, my wife says it,
44:20
it's how I part of how I get my performance fix. There's like,
44:24
you can prepare all you want, but once you get there, you
44:27
like, you might need to improvise and just Yes, yeah.
44:30
And like you feel like, go with the flow, like you have to,
44:35
like, play with the audience and what, what happens there? But
44:39
yeah, it's a, it's a very bad much a matter of and sometimes i
44:42
i try to impart this to my clients, is to say, this is a
44:45
collaboration, yeah. And part of my job is, like, to take care of
44:50
you and to, like, make sure that you're feeling good and
44:53
everything's Yeah, like, so I might stop us occasionally and
44:57
be like, Hey, is everything if I really sense something is off.
45:00
Yeah, let's talk about why it's off, yep, and then take that
45:05
moment to again be a human being and realize that, you know, it's
45:13
not about me, it's it's this couple's wedding.
45:19
So after years of photographing weddings,
45:26
what keeps you emotionally invested, because I know is,
45:30
like, I've, you know, I'm coming up on 900 or something at this
45:34
point. Yeah, there's, there were some years where I was doing
45:38
like, 60 a year, but it was, there were a lot of, like,
45:41
smaller ones, yeah, but, and I decided around think 2010 or
45:50
2011 I was like, nope, hard cap on the number per year, because
45:54
I can't give right, right to them. Like, like, I want, like,
46:00
what I am, and I found myself like, slowly cutting that
46:04
John Dolan: number down. Yeah, I'd say for the past 15 years
46:08
I've been at 1010, to 12, and that's it, because most of my
46:12
weddings are multi day weddings, and some there's a lot of travel
46:17
involved. And so it's, you know, still four, four days or so, but
46:23
for me, it's always this calculus of going into an
46:29
unknown situation and coming out with knowledge about these
46:34
people. And that's the beautiful thing is, it's like going into a
46:38
mystery and then by Sunday, I've unlocked some understanding of
46:45
these two families coming together and these two people
46:48
coming together. And so it's a it's a little bit of a detective
46:54
thing. It's a little bit of human nature study. It's like,
46:58
I'm going to this like an anthropologist, there's a lot of
47:02
elements to it, but it's, it's also that thing that I've gotten
47:07
older, but couples stay generally the same age, and I
47:11
there's a universality to what people go through with this. And
47:16
so it's, it's a it's a funny thing, because it's, it is the
47:20
same script every weekend for all these years, but it's not,
47:24
it's infinite variety. And so it's like, you know, everyone
47:28
has the same play. They're doing the same high school theater,
47:32
but it's new cast and new costumes and a new location,
47:36
Casey Fatchett: yeah, I mean, that's, that's how I've
47:37
described it in the past. It's like, people are like, well, you
47:40
know, what is there there is a there's an outline here, like,
47:45
for everyone, like I said, What? What's the same? Like, weddings
47:49
are infinitely the same and infinitely different. Yeah, all
47:52
at the same time. And it's just like, what are we doing here?
47:56
Two people are going to tell each other that they love one
47:58
another and that they're committing to each other for the
48:02
rest of their lives. That's happening at every wedding.
48:06
John Dolan: You know? What else is interesting I've found is
48:08
that,
48:11
because I do corporate stuff, I do nonprofit I do ad jobs, there
48:16
aren't many magazines left, but it's after all these years of
48:21
doing a variety of stuff, weddings are the thing that had
48:24
lasted. The relationships are deeper. The value of the
48:30
photographs only increases over time. So I've just been dumping
48:35
the garbage, kind of a cleaning of all these tear sheets from
48:38
the 2000s I was like, Oh, I totally forgot about this shoot
48:43
I did in Milwaukee or wherever it was. I learned a lot from it,
48:48
but it has no lasting impact on my life, whereas, you know, my
48:54
relationships with my couples stays for years and years and
48:57
years and and my other thesis of the book is that weddings have
49:02
been so underestimated culturally as a valuable thing
49:07
to think about and make art in and study and in, you know,
49:12
movies, it's always kind of the first scene or the last scene,
49:17
and it's nobody's really dived deep inside what actually
49:21
happens at a wedding, even though it's, you know, this huge
49:25
part of our economy. And, yeah,
49:28
Casey Fatchett: okay, all right, I have to ask favorite wedding
49:31
movie,
49:34
Wedding Crashers. No, for at least the first 10 minutes, is
49:38
like a documentary at the beginning of it is like
49:41
phenomenal I had a friend who used to, like, assist me on
49:46
weddings and, like, that movie had just come out, and he was
49:49
like, coming just, like, carry a gear and stuff, like, for me.
49:52
And he'd be like, Oh, my God, it's real. And I was like, yeah,
49:55
yeah,
49:56
John Dolan: First Corinthians. I always text my sons when I get a
49:58
first Corinthians.
49:59
Casey Fatchett: And. Oh, yeah, it's, I mean, I think 27 dresses
50:03
is my favorite because, yeah, because it just has this element
50:06
of, like, I think it's James Morrison's character like that
50:09
really speaks to me. It's just like, you know, I've been to so
50:12
many weddings like and but he really does care, like, that
50:17
whole thing. He's, like, I cried like a baby at the right Johnson
50:21
wedding or whatever. There's a good
50:22
John Dolan: new one last couple of years called plus one, and
50:27
it's kind of like a snarky millennial is going to a bunch
50:30
of weddings, and she's kind of bored, but it's a sleeper. And
50:34
it's, I thought it was pretty accurate.
50:37
Casey Fatchett: Is that Emma Roberts? I think
50:39
John Dolan: I don't know, I just unknown actors to me, but
50:43
Casey Fatchett: I feel like I've seen that. I feel like, Yeah,
50:45
I've seen there were a couple other things that
50:48
John Dolan: I mean. Also, the real sleeper is, it's not for
50:51
everybody, but I recommend it to people. Is Rachel Getting
50:54
Married with Anne Hathaway, and that is a emotionally accurate
51:00
film and backyard home movie. I mean, home wedding. Spot on.
51:06
Casey Fatchett: It's not father of the bride. Yeah. It's a kind
51:10
of opposite of that in a lot of ways, yeah, but yeah, I totally
51:16
agree. All right, so like, as we're sort of finishing up here,
51:23
I have what is your advice to photographers, no matter what
51:31
their experience this could be with photography in general,
51:34
could be with wedding photography.
51:37
What is your advice for
51:41
creating that personal connection with your subjects or
51:48
your clients, and, yeah, and in some instances, like, I was
51:55
looking at your photos from Ireland, and I was thinking
51:58
about, I'm very good at, like, kind of slowly building trust
52:01
with people. Like, I can't like, it's hard for me just to have a
52:06
shyness, which may not come across in this, but it's a once
52:12
I have a topic of mutual interest, I'm pretty good, yeah,
52:16
but it's like, if I'm walking up to a stranger in the street,
52:19
it's very hard for me to build trust with that person, I would
52:23
be the same.
52:25
John Dolan: I think the lesson I've learned over the years that
52:29
took me a long time to figure out was that the photographs
52:34
come at the end. You know, raising the camera comes at the
52:37
end, and it's the building the it's even at weddings, I sit
52:42
with people. I I'll sit down at a table with somebody and start
52:46
chatting with them, and where I'm meeting them, person to
52:50
person, and then started to take the picture.
52:53
Or I just think I used to
52:58
come right in with the camera and start shooting before people
53:02
knew who I was or knew what I was about. And so I think
53:07
there's like a relaxation thing, and there's this beautiful thing
53:12
I heard about the best comedians are the most relaxed. You think
53:16
of Robin Williams, well, he's a little amped up, but, but
53:20
somebody like Billy Crystal, or somebody who's just so you can
53:24
feel that they're so happy in themselves, so comfortable in
53:29
themselves, that that presents themselves to the you know, that
53:34
allows for the improv.
53:36
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that they're comfortable with
53:38
what they're doing. Yeah, they like that. They're just like,
53:40
This is what I am so comfortable in my space of what I'm doing,
53:45
yeah, that you trust them.
53:48
John Dolan: So I guess the advice is, is
53:52
to photograph in a meaningful way, not just go out on the
53:56
weekends and take pictures, but to actually really photograph
54:00
and study art and read short stories. And if photography is
54:06
going to be your vocation, you have to go all in and watch the
54:13
history of cinematography, watch French films from the 50s. You
54:17
know you have to go into your own educational process, to know
54:24
where people have been before, instead of just skimming across
54:27
the surface coast. I mean, I feel very lucky to have had
54:32
really great mentors, teachers who were tough on me. As far as
54:38
knowing what happened in the history of photography, it's not
54:41
that hard to learn. It's a really short
54:44
Casey Fatchett: history, only
54:47
almost 200 years. Not quite, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a lot
54:52
of time to like. It's not, definitely not art history.
54:55
John Dolan: And so many photographers have no clue who
54:59
walk. Evans was, or who ache, or Lartigue, or, you know, any of
55:05
these great photographers who have so much to offer. So that
55:10
would be my main advice is, is dig deep, and because we have to
55:16
all agree that getting good is not that hard. It's a
55:21
photography is a rare art form where the camera is going to get
55:24
you most of the way there, but that last 20% is who you are as
55:30
a person and who what you have to offer. What do you have to
55:33
say?
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my wedding photography website, my non wedding photography
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website, my art photography website, and some other sites,
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is now 50 gigs of storage. It used to be 20. I had gotten the
57:08
message recently. Actually, this was up over 80% of my storage
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capacity. So I was thinking, Hmm, why don't we add a delete?
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But now I don't have to delete anything, because it's now 50
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gigs. The Go geek package, which used to be 40 gigs of storage,
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is now 100 gigabytes of storage. So if you have, like, a lot of
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manage, that can be a great option. If you only need one
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58:19
Unknown: Hey, now for my favorite part of the show,
58:24
what's that? Say? Useless information.
58:28
This is always death.
58:32
Casey Fatchett: All right, John, it's time for useless
58:33
information for this episode,
58:36
true or false, one of the greatest pitchers in major
58:40
league baseball history,
58:43
like to chase firetrucks.
58:45
John Dolan: Oh, true. Dizzy Dean, no, it's the Rube. Rube,
58:50
oh, a Rube waddle, yeah.
58:53
Casey Fatchett: Fascination with fire trucks. He would leave
58:55
games Yes. In the middle of a game, yes to go, because he
58:59
wanted to be a firefighter. He would like, run after them and
59:02
like, go, like, follow the fire truck. And like, go to the fire
59:05
and like, help the firefighters. And there's an awesome episode
59:10
of The dollop, which is a podcast, a History podcast, that
59:13
about the Rube that is, like, the he got into fights with
59:16
people in the stands. He just, like, he would like, it's just
59:20
an amazing, amazing character, John, thank you so much for
59:25
coming on the show. Where can people find you? I don't know if
59:27
you have anything you want people to know about.
59:30
John Dolan: I mean, Instagram is probably the easiest place to
59:33
find me. John Dolan, photog, and if you'd like a signed copy my
59:39
book, I've got some in my house here, and I'll ship them to you
59:41
directly with a little note and John dolan.com for that,
59:49
Casey Fatchett: but I'm easy to find. I'll put the links in the
59:51
Episode Notes for this episode so you can find them there as
59:54
well. Again, John, thanks for coming on. You're welcome back
59:58
anytime.
59:59
John Dolan: Fantastic. Thanks, Casey.
1:00:11
Casey Fatchett: And we are back. I hope you enjoyed my
1:00:14
conversation with John Dolan. I know I certainly did. Be sure to
1:00:17
check out John's links in the Episode Notes and give him a
1:00:20
follow. You won't be disappointed while you're in a
1:00:22
following mood, be sure to follow us on the socials at the
1:00:26
nerdy photo that's at the nerdy photo, no dots, underscores or
1:00:30
dashes on Instagram, threads, blue sky and Reddit. Don't miss
1:00:34
the memes, the tips, the behind the scenes looks, and everything
1:00:36
else that goes on between the episodes. Oh, and while we were
1:00:40
gone, I discovered that the lighting equipment broke because
1:00:42
f 2.0 didn't properly secure it in storage. He used to say that
1:00:47
artists used lies to tell the truth while politicians use them
1:00:51
to cover the truth up. And which one are you in this scenario?
1:00:54
Until next time, everybody stay safe and stay nerdy. You
1:01:05
who's your heart been beating about you better. Get better.
1:01:11
Get better. Get better. Listen, you.