Latest / Play Therapy Parenting: Real Parenting Questions Answered by a Child Therapist / S2E33 - Biting, Aggression, and Emotional Overwhelm: Why Kids Act Out During Life Transitions—And How to Help

Transcript

S2E33 - Biting, Aggression, and Emotional Overwhelm: Why Kids Act Out During Life Transitions—And How to Help · Play Therapy Parenting: Real Parenting Questions Answered by a Child Therapist

• 0:02
  You're listening to the
• 0:03
  Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
• 0:09
  Hi,
• 0:09
  I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
• 0:10
  The Kid Counselor.
• 0:11
  This is the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast where I give you insight,
• 0:14
  awareness,
• 0:15
  and enlightenment about your parenting
• 0:17
  and your relationship with your kids.
• 0:19
  In today's episode,
• 0:20
  I am answering a question from Heather,
• 0:22
  and Heather is currently going through a divorce and is asking
• 0:27
  quite a few questions about how to handle
• 0:31
  assisting their child with the adjustment
• 0:33
  and some of the behavior things that are coming up from that.
• 0:37
  So Heather,
• 0:37
  thank you so much for the email.
• 0:38
  I really appreciate it
• 0:40
  and hopefully we can dive into this and,
• 0:42
  and really kind of make sense of
• 0:44
  what we can do to assist from a child-centered play therapy perspective.
• 0:49
  And if you all would like to reach out to me,
• 0:51
  I would love to hear from you brenna@thekidcounselor.com or you can,
• 0:55
  if you're in the states,
• 0:56
  you can call the voicemail number,
• 0:58
  which is 813-812-5525,
• 1:02
  and you can leave me a voicemail message and
• 1:03
  I can answer your question from the voicemail.
• 1:06
  OK,
• 1:06
  so let me read parts of the email from Heather,
• 1:09
  and then we'll kind of dive in together.
• 1:11
  I'm writing because I'm currently going through a divorce.
• 1:14
  I think my husband would probably be diagnosed
• 1:16
  with a personality disorder if he was tested.
• 1:19
  I listened to the podcast about the effects of divorce,
• 1:22
  and now I'm scared for my child,
• 1:23
  having been deployed to war 4 times and knowing and
• 1:26
  understanding the effects that has and seeing it firsthand.
• 1:29
  By the way,
• 1:29
  Heather,
• 1:30
  thank you so much for serving our country and for everything that you've done for us.
• 1:34
  My child has had a handful of different behavioral challenges,
• 1:36
  and I was trying to gentle parent and muddling through.
• 1:39
  I'm now working with a play therapist.
• 1:41
  I'm so happy to hear that,
• 1:43
  and I'm doing filial therapy,
• 1:44
  good for you.
• 1:45
  It's different than the parenting that I was raised with
• 1:48
  and in 2022 when my soon to be ex first deployed
• 1:51
  and our first au pair was with us for two years,
• 1:54
  had to leave.
• 1:55
  That was when my son,
• 1:56
  who is now 415 and was then 2,
• 1:58
  started biting kids
• 2:00
  at the time I had to put him in daycare because I lost individual care.
• 2:04
  He's now in preschool and he has continued to be
• 2:06
  aggressive with other children and is also aggressive with me.
• 2:09
  The aggression and biting returned in early November around the
• 2:12
  time my husband threatened to take our son from me
• 2:15
  and after me leaving the house,
• 2:17
  and we're now splitting time with our son.
• 2:19
  How do I balance helping my child through the trauma of the
• 2:22
  divorce with the behavioral challenges with the influence from his dad?
• 2:25
  I want my child to be resilient,
• 2:27
  self-contained,
• 2:28
  and not entitled,
• 2:29
  and I want him to stop hurting other kids and myself.
• 2:32
  I welcome any thoughts.
• 2:34
  All right,
• 2:34
  Heather,
• 2:35
  so multi-layered for sure,
• 2:37
  and
• 2:38
  I will try my best to kind of look at each of these individual components,
• 2:42
  but
• 2:43
  let me just celebrate the fact that you're pursuing play therapy
• 2:47
  and doing filial.
• 2:48
  For those of you that are not familiar with that,
• 2:50
  it is a parenting training program that teaches you as the parent to
• 2:54
  actually use the play therapy skills with your child at your home.
• 2:58
  And so,
• 2:58
  I'm so encouraged to hear that,
• 3:00
  Heather,
• 3:00
  and I know that that will just make a world of difference for you and your son,
• 3:03
  and specifically your relationship,
• 3:05
  because let's go back to the heart of why
• 3:08
  we do what we do.
• 3:10
  It's to preserve the relationship.
• 3:12
  And based on what you've described,
• 3:15
  you've been deployed,
• 3:16
  your husband has been deployed.
• 3:18
  He had an au pair,
• 3:19
  for those of you that don't know,
• 3:20
  fancy way to say nanny,
• 3:22
  basically someone that
• 3:24
  takes care of your child when you can't,
• 3:26
  and
• 3:27
  that person that was with him for two years,
• 3:29
  which becomes a parent figure and there's attachment
• 3:32
  and there's connection and there's relationship there,
• 3:35
  you've left,
• 3:36
  your husband has left,
• 3:37
  and then your au pair leaves.
• 3:39
  So,
• 3:39
  your son has been through a lot of
• 3:42
  fractured relationships and,
• 3:44
  and for no fault of you all,
• 3:46
  you serve in the military,
• 3:47
  thank you for that.
• 3:48
  And there are sacrifices that you make every day,
• 3:51
  and this is one of them.
• 3:53
  That said,
• 3:54
  your child is now struggling because
• 3:58
  there needs to be relationship repair.
• 4:00
  Then pile on top
• 4:02
  that now there's a divorce and separation going.
• 4:05
  So now here's another uprooting,
• 4:07
  and now there's OK,
• 4:09
  so now I'm only with dad part of the time,
• 4:11
  mom part of the time,
• 4:12
  and again this is relationship that needs to be repaired.
• 4:17
  This is why you're listening to this podcast.
• 4:18
  This is why you're pursuing filial therapy,
• 4:21
  because what we know about this approach
• 4:23
  is that
• 4:24
  it preserves the relationship
• 4:26
  and it puts the relationship at the heart of everything we do.
• 4:29
  Let's go back to the four pillars.
• 4:31
  If you're new to the podcast,
• 4:32
  please go back and at least start at season 2,
• 4:35
  but it would actually be better if you go back and listen to season 1.
• 4:38
  If you're not familiar with the four pillars,
• 4:40
  it's the 4 basic ways that we interact with our children.
• 4:43
  We reflect their feelings,
• 4:44
  we set limits,
• 4:45
  we give them choices,
• 4:47
  and we encourage them.
• 4:48
  It's relationship preserving.
• 4:51
  We have our rules of thumb and our tenets
• 4:53
  and our philosophies that undergird everything we do.
• 4:56
  We focus on the relationship,
• 4:57
  not the problem.
• 4:59
  Just noticing a child is a powerful builder of self-esteem.
• 5:02
  If we can't say it in 10 words or less,
• 5:04
  don't say it.
• 5:04
  We have all of these principles
• 5:06
  that guide and direct our interactions with our kids.
• 5:10
  So Heather,
• 5:11
  every time that you are using these pillars,
• 5:14
  every time
• 5:15
  that you let these rules of thumb and
• 5:16
  these tenants support what you're saying and doing,
• 5:20
  it's repairing relationship,
• 5:21
  it's building relationship,
• 5:23
  there's connection,
• 5:24
  there's communication,
• 5:26
  there's trust,
• 5:27
  there's respect,
• 5:28
  there's all of the things that need to be repaired
• 5:31
  because
• 5:31
  through all of these experiences,
• 5:34
  he has felt that some of these things are unsteady and unstable.
• 5:38
  So as you are starting to pour into him,
• 5:42
  it will naturally adjust that.
• 5:44
  Now,
• 5:45
  let's normalize a little bit.
• 5:46
  He started biting kids.
• 5:48
  It's an emotional and a behavioral reaction
• 5:52
  to what's going on internally.
• 5:54
  He has pent up emotion,
• 5:56
  he's little,
• 5:57
  doesn't have language skills,
• 5:58
  doesn't have self-control,
• 5:59
  doesn't have emotional vocabulary.
• 6:02
  The only way I know how to release this
• 6:05
  is aggressive behavior,
• 6:07
  and biting is an easy thing for kids to do.
• 6:11
  So that's actually very age appropriate number one,
• 6:13
  but it's also understandable
• 6:15
  based on the circumstances.
• 6:18
  He was dealing with so much emotionally and he didn't know
• 6:21
  how to channel that appropriately.
• 6:23
  No,
• 6:24
  no 2.5 year old does.
• 6:26
  Let's be really clear,
• 6:27
  we cannot expect a 2 year old to channel their emotions appropriately.
• 6:31
  They're here and now,
• 6:32
  they're emotional beings,
• 6:33
  and they're going to show you how they feel.
• 6:36
  So his biting is his demonstration
• 6:39
  of the upheaval that he's feeling.
• 6:41
  That's appropriate.
• 6:43
  And then you say that he's continued to be
• 6:46
  aggressive with other children and aggressive with you.
• 6:49
  OK,
• 6:49
  what we know
• 6:50
  is that
• 6:51
  the child will naturally.
• 6:54
  I have a tendency to anyway,
• 6:56
  doesn't always work this way,
• 6:57
  but children have a tendency
• 6:59
  to be at their worst
• 7:01
  for the person that unconditionally loves them the most.
• 7:04
  So Heather,
• 7:05
  you might be the safe place for him to land.
• 7:08
  If he knows that you're going to
• 7:09
  unconditionally love him and unconditionally accept him
• 7:13
  and even at his worst
• 7:15
  you love him through it anyway.
• 7:17
  He will hold it together for other people as much as possible
• 7:20
  and then fall apart with you.
• 7:23
  So often kids are the most aggressive with the person they feel the safest with,
• 7:26
  and that doesn't seem to make sense
• 7:28
  at an adult cognitive intellectual level,
• 7:31
  but it makes perfect sense to a child because
• 7:34
  you'll love me tomorrow even if I yell at you today.
• 7:38
  And there's no fear
• 7:40
  that
• 7:40
  uh if I take it too far,
• 7:43
  they won't love me anymore.
• 7:45
  So while that's hard being in that position,
• 7:47
  Heather,
• 7:48
  it does indicate the kind of relationship that you might have
• 7:51
  built with him and that he defaults to that belief.
• 7:55
  However,
• 7:56
  we know
• 7:57
  that aggression warrants an immediate limit,
• 7:59
  no matter what.
• 8:01
  So you said that the aggression and the biting returned in
• 8:03
  November when your husband threatened to take him from you.
• 8:06
  Of course,
• 8:07
  he would have aggression again because he's upheaved again and he's scared.
• 8:12
  And
• 8:13
  after you left the house,
• 8:15
  it's another huge change for him,
• 8:16
  huge upheaval.
• 8:18
  So kids will naturally default to what they've always done.
• 8:22
  Humans default to what they've always done,
• 8:24
  let's be clear.
• 8:25
  But kids specifically behaviorally and emotionally,
• 8:28
  they will default to what they've always done
• 8:30
  because it's easy and it requires no work.
• 8:33
  However,
• 8:34
  if he's being aggressive with you,
• 8:36
  it warrants an immediate limit.
• 8:38
  So as soon as he hits or kicks or bites or whatever it is,
• 8:43
  Heather,
• 8:43
  you jump straight to the limit.
• 8:46
  I am not for hurting.
• 8:49
  And if you are familiar with limit setting,
• 8:50
  notice that I went straight to the communicate the limit.
• 8:53
  I did not reflect the feeling first.
• 8:56
  We only do that before the behavior,
• 8:58
  not during the behavior.
• 9:01
  So if he's already being aggressive,
• 9:03
  it's straight to the limit.
• 9:04
  I am not for hurting.
• 9:06
  And if you need to hold his arm,
• 9:08
  if you need to hold his leg,
• 9:09
  if you need to stop
• 9:11
  the behavior,
• 9:13
  You do it calmly,
• 9:14
  you do it neutrally,
• 9:16
  you're not emotional,
• 9:17
  you're not reactive.
• 9:19
  You're not
• 9:20
  grabbing at his arm and making it's not a big production.
• 9:24
  You just hold it firmly and you say,
• 9:26
  I am not for hitting.
• 9:29
  If he's able to control himself,
• 9:30
  you let go.
• 9:32
  If he tries again,
• 9:33
  you hold it again,
• 9:34
  and you say,
• 9:34
  I am not for hitting.
• 9:36
  I am not for kicking.
• 9:39
  Then you go back through the process.
• 9:42
  You're upset.
• 9:44
  You're angry,
• 9:45
  you're frustrated,
• 9:46
  you're scared,
• 9:47
  you're confused,
• 9:48
  whatever it is that you think he's feeling.
• 9:52
  Please do not default.
• 9:54
  This is for everyone.
• 9:55
  Please do not default to your mad or you're angry.
• 9:59
  Aggression is very rarely about anger.
• 10:02
  It's usually about a vulnerable emotion that they're masking.
• 10:06
  So be really intentional about looking into your child's eyes.
• 10:09
  Let's go back to the reflecting feelings pillar.
• 10:12
  Look into your child's eyes and get a clue.
• 10:15
  Please don't assume that they're mad.
• 10:18
  They're probably not.
• 10:20
  That's just their mask.
• 10:22
  They're probably trying to hide a vulnerable emotion.
• 10:25
  So
• 10:26
  you're confused,
• 10:27
  you're worried,
• 10:27
  you're upset,
• 10:28
  you're scared,
• 10:29
  you're frustrated,
• 10:30
  you're irritated,
• 10:31
  you're annoyed,
• 10:31
  whatever.
• 10:32
  Probably not angry.
• 10:35
  But I am never for hurting.
• 10:38
  If you want to enlarge it,
• 10:39
  since this is happening with children as well,
• 10:41
  people are never for hurting.
• 10:44
  People are not for hitting,
• 10:46
  people are not for kicking,
• 10:47
  people are not for biting.
• 10:49
  You can go broad or you can go specific,
• 10:51
  which with me,
• 10:52
  I am not for.
• 10:55
  Now,
• 10:56
  if we stop there,
• 10:58
  the missing link is the choice and the returning of responsibility.
• 11:01
  He needs to have alternatives.
• 11:04
  So
• 11:05
  you can choose to punch.
• 11:07
  The pillows on the couch.
• 11:09
  Or you can choose to kick.
• 11:12
  The beanbag chair.
• 11:15
  I don't know what your options are.
• 11:16
  I'm just throwing out hypotheticals.
• 11:18
  If he needs a release for the aggression.
• 11:22
  If he has all of this pent up stuff and he needs to get it out,
• 11:25
  he needs to have opportunities to do that,
• 11:27
  but it needs to be appropriate.
• 11:30
  So if he can punch the pillows on the couch,
• 11:31
  or if he can kick a beanbag chair,
• 11:33
  or if he can
• 11:35
  pummel his stuffed animals,
• 11:36
  whatever it is.
• 11:38
  You give him alternatives,
• 11:39
  Heather.
• 11:40
  So let's go through this all together.
• 11:42
  People are not for hitting.
• 11:44
  I am not for hurting,
• 11:46
  whatever you want to say.
• 11:47
  Start there,
• 11:48
  then go through the three-step process.
• 11:51
  You're really angry,
• 11:53
  you're really sad,
• 11:54
  you're really upset.
• 11:55
  You're really whatever,
• 11:56
  whatever is the most appropriate emotion.
• 11:59
  But I am never for hurting.
• 12:01
  You can choose to punch the pillows on the couch
• 12:03
  or you can choose to kick the beanbag chair,
• 12:05
  which do you choose?
• 12:08
  And the goal is that he learns to self regulate,
• 12:12
  he learns to self-control.
• 12:14
  And here's the beauty of this limit setting involves 3
• 12:18
  of the pillars,
• 12:20
  all in one.
• 12:20
  So this is kind of,
• 12:21
  uh,
• 12:21
  this is a bonus,
• 12:22
  one fell swoop for 3.
• 12:25
  You're reflecting his feelings,
• 12:26
  which means he's building an emotional vocabulary.
• 12:29
  You're setting neutral limits,
• 12:30
  so he's learning to regulate.
• 12:33
  And you're giving him choices,
• 12:34
  so he's learning self-control and ownership of outcome.
• 12:38
  And Heather,
• 12:39
  you specifically said,
• 12:40
  how do I help him
• 12:41
  through the trauma and the behavioral challenges.
• 12:44
  I want him to be resilient,
• 12:45
  self-controlled,
• 12:46
  and not entitled and stop hurting others.
• 12:48
  Well,
• 12:48
  limit setting is,
• 12:49
  is your path
• 12:51
  because you reflect his feelings,
• 12:52
  you set a neutral limit and you give him choices,
• 12:55
  you'll achieve all of those goals through that process.
• 12:59
  And be consistent.
• 13:01
  Now,
• 13:01
  if he violates the limit 3 times,
• 13:04
  so you've made it very clear you're not for hitting,
• 13:07
  kicking,
• 13:07
  biting,
• 13:08
  whatever is going on,
• 13:09
  and he does it.
• 13:11
  And he does it 3 times.
• 13:13
  You move to ultimate limit setting,
• 13:15
  which I don't think we've talked about it often,
• 13:17
  but let me just refresh for those of you
• 13:19
  that have been veteran listeners from the very beginning.
• 13:22
  If you're new to this,
• 13:23
  get a,
• 13:24
  get a notepad.
• 13:25
  Once the child is unwilling or unable to comply with the limit 3 times,
• 13:31
  you move to ultimate limit setting.
• 13:33
  So in that scenario,
• 13:34
  you say,
• 13:34
  I'm gonna say that your son's name is Jake.
• 13:36
  I don't know.
• 13:37
  So you say,
• 13:39
  Jake.
• 13:40
  You've chosen to hit me and you know that I'm not for hitting.
• 13:44
  If you choose to hit me,
• 13:46
  you choose negative consequence.
• 13:49
  It needs to be a doozy.
• 13:50
  He's 4,
• 13:51
  it has to be immediate,
• 13:52
  and it has to be that day only.
• 13:55
  Can't be later that night.
• 13:56
  It can't be later that week.
• 13:57
  It can't be this weekend.
• 13:58
  It has to be immediate
• 14:00
  because his
• 14:01
  time frame is very skewed.
• 14:04
  So there has to be immediacy,
• 14:06
  and it has to be his currency.
• 14:07
  What matters to him.
• 14:10
  Is it time with his friends?
• 14:11
  Is it snuggle time before bed?
• 14:13
  Is it reading a book together?
• 14:15
  Is it dessert,
• 14:16
  whatever it is?
• 14:18
  It has to be immediate and it has to be that day.
• 14:21
  Never let it carry over.
• 14:22
  He's too young.
• 14:24
  So
• 14:25
  Jake,
• 14:26
  you.
• 14:27
  Chose to hurt me and you know that I'm not for hurting.
• 14:30
  If you choose to do it again,
• 14:32
  you're choosing negative consequence.
• 14:35
  If you choose not to hurt me
• 14:37
  and you choose to kick
• 14:39
  the beanbag instead,
• 14:40
  you choose to keep
• 14:42
  said thing.
• 14:43
  You choose to have said thing.
• 14:46
  Make sure that you give the positive and the negative.
• 14:49
  If you choose positive,
• 14:51
  then you choose positive.
• 14:52
  If you choose negative,
• 14:53
  then you choose negative.
• 14:54
  Which do you choose?
• 14:55
  Notice that I said the word choose 5 times.
• 14:58
  It doesn't work without saying choose 5 times.
• 15:01
  It's not the same thing to say if you do that again,
• 15:04
  I'm going to,
• 15:05
  if you don't do that again,
• 15:06
  you're going to,
• 15:07
  those are threats.
• 15:09
  The child learns nothing about self-control and self-responsibility.
• 15:13
  It's a choice
• 15:15
  If you choose positive,
• 15:16
  you choose positive.
• 15:17
  If you choose negative,
• 15:18
  you choose negative,
• 15:19
  which do you choose?
• 15:21
  And then here's the beauty heather and for all the rest of us.
• 15:25
  You would always choose for him to have the best things.
• 15:29
  You would choose for him to have dessert or have the book,
• 15:33
  or have the cuddle time,
• 15:34
  or have time with friends,
• 15:35
  or have his favorite TV show,
• 15:37
  whatever.
• 15:37
  You would always choose for him to have those things,
• 15:41
  but sometimes he's going to choose not to.
• 15:44
  It's not your burden.
• 15:45
  It's not your responsibility.
• 15:47
  You're not the disciplinarian.
• 15:48
  You're not the ruler with the iron fist.
• 15:51
  You very calmly,
• 15:52
  very neutrally.
• 15:54
  Very light.
• 15:56
  You're able to say,
• 15:58
  I see you've chosen
• 15:59
  to have dessert tonight because you chose not to hurt me,
• 16:02
  or I see you've chosen not to have dessert tonight because you chose to hit me,
• 16:06
  but you can try again tomorrow.
• 16:09
  And Heather and all the rest of you.
• 16:12
  If your child chooses the negative consequence.
• 16:16
  That child chooses the negative consequence.
• 16:19
  This does not work if you give in.
• 16:22
  When he cries,
• 16:23
  when he throws a fit,
• 16:24
  when he tries to hit you again,
• 16:25
  when he screams,
• 16:26
  when he throws himself on the ground,
• 16:28
  when there's alligator tears pouring out of his eyes,
• 16:31
  and he's screaming and crying,
• 16:32
  and it's a terrible,
• 16:32
  horrible,
• 16:33
  no good day.
• 16:35
  You do not give in.
• 16:37
  And here's how you stalwart yourself against it,
• 16:39
  and here's how you make sure that you stick to it.
• 16:42
  He chose.
• 16:44
  He chose
• 16:46
  that outcome
• 16:47
  you didn't.
• 16:49
  And you're not choosing to make his life miserable,
• 16:52
  you're just enforcing the choice that he made.
• 16:55
  So you reflect feelings and you let him know that tomorrow's a new day.
• 16:59
  Oh,
• 16:59
  you're so disappointed that you chose to hit me
• 17:02
  and you chose not to have dessert tonight,
• 17:03
  but you can try again tomorrow.
• 17:06
  No,
• 17:07
  oh,
• 17:08
  you're really upset,
• 17:10
  but you chose to hit me,
• 17:11
  but you can try again tomorrow.
• 17:14
  At the very moment that you chose to hurt me,
• 17:15
  it was at that very moment that you chose not to have books tonight,
• 17:18
  but you can try again tomorrow.
• 17:21
  Guess what?
• 17:22
  You're going to outwit and outlast and outplay your child.
• 17:26
  I talk about this with my therapists all the time.
• 17:29
  You're going to outwit,
• 17:30
  outlast and outplay.
• 17:32
  One of you is going to give in and it's not going to be you.
• 17:36
  Because choice giving falls apart and limit setting falls apart if you cave.
• 17:41
  Because guess what the child learns.
• 17:43
  Well,
• 17:43
  I just have to escalate and I get my way.
• 17:46
  True,
• 17:47
  we don't want that.
• 17:48
  You know what we want?
• 17:50
  Dang,
• 17:51
  that was terrible.
• 17:52
  I didn't get books 3 nights in a row.
• 17:54
  I'm not doing that anymore.
• 17:56
  I'll just stop hitting her.
• 17:57
  It's not worth it.
• 17:59
  Self-control.
• 18:01
  Self-regulation
• 18:03
  It only works when we don't cave.
• 18:05
  So I hope that is a huge encouragement to you.
• 18:08
  Limit setting.
• 18:10
  Straight to the neutral limit if the behavior is already taking place,
• 18:14
  then the 3-step limit setting process,
• 18:16
  then if the child is unwilling or unable to comply with the limit on the 3rd go round,
• 18:21
  we go to ultimate limit setting.
• 18:24
  So Heather,
• 18:24
  I hope that that's helpful and I hope that as you
• 18:26
  do filial and as your child is in play therapy,
• 18:30
  I hope that you see monumental changes.
• 18:32
  I,
• 18:32
  I'm looking forward to getting an update from you.
• 18:34
  Please email me and let me know how things are going,
• 18:36
  and thank you so much for the email.
• 18:38
  For those of you that are in a similar situation,
• 18:41
  dealing with big feelings,
• 18:42
  big emotions,
• 18:43
  big behaviors,
• 18:44
  limit setting process is the most effective tool in your toolbox.
• 18:48
  So I hope that encourages you,
• 18:49
  and again,
• 18:50
  Heather,
• 18:50
  thank you for sharing.
• 18:52
  All right,
• 18:52
  I appreciate y'all so much.
• 18:53
  Thank you for the commitment that you make to your kids.
• 18:56
  Thank you for the commitment that you make to your families,
• 18:58
  and thanks for allowing me to be a small part of it.
• 19:00
  We'll talk again soon.
• 19:01
  Bye.
• 19:02
  Thank you for listening to
• 19:03
  the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
• 19:07
  For more episodes and just subscribe to our newsletter,
• 19:10
  please go to www.playtherapyparenting.com.