Latest / Skin Anarchy / Dr Dhaval Bhanusali MD FAAD Interview

Transcript

Dr Dhaval Bhanusali MD FAAD Interview · Skin Anarchy

0:04
SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: This is Ekta, and today I'm very excited about our events because I truly admire him for his medical contributions in the field of dermatology and just overall um medicine.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Dr.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: Dhavel Bhanusali, who is a um board-certified dermatologist and laser surgeon.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, Dr.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: B.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited you're here.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely my pleasure.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Um I would love it if you could start us off by your career journey, because I know you've just done some extraordinary work in the field of medicine overall, and obviously dermatology.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: So I would love to hear it from the start.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh sure.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a bit of a loaded story, but uh I guess I'll give you my best representation of it.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: So I am pretty young still, so not too long of a journey yet.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: But I I went to undergrad in medical school uh at Michigan State.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh I always kind of joke.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: I love that the formative years of my life were in the Midwest because I'm originally from New York.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: Go Spartans.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: I love Michigan State.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: I grew up on that campus.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Really?
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, dude.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Greatest place on earth still to this day.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: But always and forever a Spartan.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: But I um I went and I trained uh afterwards in dermatology in New York uh at Mount Sinai, St.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Louis Roosevelt.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: And so I've been kind of a bit all over the place.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: I have a kind of a unique, I think, trajectory to my career.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, I always kind of joke, I'm I have three different pillars of my life.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: One is obviously a dermatologist.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh, my office is in Hudson Yards in New York City.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I have an incredible practice, um, really defined by my incredible patients, to be honest with you.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: I have some of the most amazing humans that walk through my door every day.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and my practice is, you know, it's interesting.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: I think most people would assume it's a cosmetic derm practice and all that kind of fun stuff.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: I always joke that I am always a medical dermatologist and scientist first.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: And so um sometimes, you know, uh reputations can be built without you realizing it.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: And so I always say I love my medical derm patients, but on the cosmetic side, we do quite a bit.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: And my personal passion, I've done a lot of work with scars.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, we do a lot of work with um just lasers as a whole.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: I love the idea of using technology um to get um new treatment paradigms in place for people who definitely need it.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of work in hair, um, just I think because of the academic challenge of hair loss, it's probably one of the more emotional conditions people kind of face, and certainly a challenging one, even amongst colleagues and friends.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, they're never easy cases.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: So I just I kind of like when my brain has to work a little bit.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: And my sister's a rheumatologist who's way smarter than me.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: So that's why I get to use the brain and pretend like I'm her, uh pretend like I am how she does her medical practice.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: I uh I always feel fortunate.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Um so that's that's a big part of it.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Um the other kind of uh I guess like pillars of my life, um, one is in technology.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: I like to build fun tech projects that I think help the world.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I've been doing so since I was probably a resident.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: And then we do some projects in skincare, which is more the creative side of everything, which kind of still plays a little bit into the scientists, um, a little bit more into just kind of like the front-facing idea that you can potentially care for and treat people that you might not be able to see in the office and much larger scale.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: And so just all these different parts of the brain that I like to use whenever I can.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: And I love that you have kept research as a part of your your career journey.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know a lot of um physicians, a lot of uh, you know, doctors in general, they kind of fall off that research wagon after they enter their, you know, their actual end goal.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's really nice.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: So can you tell us a little bit about your um just the entrepreneurial side of things?
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Like I know you've uh created a lot of uh initiatives that are geared towards really providing medical, you know, affordable medical care, right?
3:53
SPEAKER_01: So I I want I would love to hear about that.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean it started in in residency.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, started in med school, I helped with a biotech company just as a learning experience.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: In med school, I started kind of a like a hybrid venture capital firm because I didn't have any money, but I really wanted to help build cool health tech.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: And I've always felt deeply that um healthcare innovation should start within the medical field, as in you know, not business people trying to create a solution for a problem that may or may not exist.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: It's it really should be doctors trying to figure out solutions for patients and care.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: And and I think we have obviously an intimate knowledge of you know what's wrong with the system, and we need to figure out how to fix it.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: And so that was like the initial kind of steps.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so some of the projects include uh the one that's probably more well known is something called skin medicinals.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, SM was honestly a project.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: So what happened was I don't know, maybe like two, three years ago, uh I had a couple patients come in who I mean, I was just refilling their medications, checking in on them, and their refill pricing went through the roof.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: It was like a$20 medication, and then it was like a couple hundred dollar medication, literally a physical overnight.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we're a lot of us young Durhams are friends.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: So we texted, you know, I texted a couple of colleagues like, hey, are you guys seeing this?
5:04
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Yeah, we're seeing it too.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: And started texting some friends across uh across the country, like, hey, are you guys also getting these like crazy prices for like really you know basic medications?
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And everybody's like, yeah, what's going on?
5:15
SPEAKER_00: And so fast forward, I think it was like uh last year, early last year, or I guess the year before that now.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's all these uh, I think the government filed all these lawsuits against price fixing and this and the generic um derm world specifically.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: And you know, again, I don't know the specifics of how that played out, but the allegations were essentially that that they were raising prices overnight and a lot of competitors are working together, and which is it's great that they found that.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'm happy the government was looking into it.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: But the problem is I'm staring at a patient, you know, who's sitting across from me, and I need to figure out how to get them better, right?
5:47
SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, yeah.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: The idea was like, all right, we need to like we can't wait forever for everybody to solve this problem, we have to solve it ourselves.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I think innovation happens um and even entrepreneurship without you quite maybe planning for it.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: It's more of a necessity than anything.
6:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Because we have some access to you know tech background and development, all that kind of stuff.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: I ended up just by uh building a platform to help compound medications.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: Compounding is an integral part of Durham and has been for like, I don't know, 30, 40, 50 years, probably longer.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, back when doctors used to actually just create their own compounds in the office and treat patients.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Um we got away with it, obviously, with big pharma, but it was something that we kind of already knew how to do, or at least we had, you know, it was an access point that we did.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: And so all I really did was, you know, create a platform for my colleagues to be able to compound.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: And you know, some of them were my formulation, some of them we formulated together.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: I always say I never take credit.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's really a truly a like a community effort.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my colleagues are incredible, and I am insanely fortunate to have some of the smartest people on earth as friends, as colleagues.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of you know, we built this together.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: I may get the credit, but I always say this is a it was this was a field of dermatology coming together.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: And now we're I think we're in what 5,000 plus derm offices or something crazy.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: It's um wow approaching.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: Congratulations on that success.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: I love, I really love that because you know, for me, you know, I being in the medical field, I understand that, you know, there is, I don't know, there's just like you said, it's it's a massive problem.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think um, you know, not just in Durham, but like in every um, you know, specialty, there's always going to be medications that are just not accessible to people.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: And for you to create something that is almost feels like such common sense, but do it so you know successfully, it's it's it's beautiful.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: So I really want to congratulate you on that.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I appreciate that.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: My our hope, honestly, like I again, I'd be very honest.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: I did not expect it to get maybe as big as it did.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the and this is the rule.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: And we, you know, I I've I've always been careful about how much we talk about, how little we talk about it.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Because obviously it's a little scary of a place.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we are disrupting perhaps the the largest um kind of scariest world, which is like pharma.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, yeah.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: But the but the truth is like my hope is that other fields kind of look at us and being like, hey, like if those guys can do it, why can't we start looking at alternative solutions for our patients?
8:05
SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, like, you know, we can't sustain a society where people have to decide between food on the table and and the medications they use to treat themselves or their family members, right?
8:15
SPEAKER_01: And yes, that is real, that's very real that you just said that.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: So that's our hope.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's been the goal the whole time.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: That we again, I can't go to every field, I'm not an expert in every field or anything like that, but you know, I do hope, and we have talked to people and kind of given them an idea of like what we're doing, how it works, and even the the scale to which we've gotten.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: And and I mean, now it's like I've had you know doctors from literally, I mean, all over the country reach out, like, hey, this is you know, helping this.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Even yesterday, I think on Instagram or two days ago, um, a colleague tagged uh myself and SM on they were doing their pre-cancer treatment, and they were using a compound from skin medicinals.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: And for me, I was kind of like a whoa moment, right?
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Because these are my careers that are that are using it for very serious things, and it's obviously it's helping, and like it's crazy that a small kind of thought sparked an idea, which led to this whole different like world that we've kind of been able and been fortunate enough to build, and and to see colleagues embrace it, which you know is sometimes in in medicine, I think implementation is always the trickiest part because we're all busy and we all have our ways, and you know, it's been really cool to see I think the the field as a whole embrace what we've been doing.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, and unify it too, right?
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Getting uh, you know, medical professionals on the same page is one of the hardest feats, I think, for humanity.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, everyone has such opinions, and you know, like the way you interpret medical research and the innovation that you think is necessary, you know, getting everyone on board with that is actually very, very difficult.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: So I the fact that you've been able to do that and people are really responding.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's amazing.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: We've been fortunate.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: We um the other project we did was something called hair stem.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Similarly, was like, you know, we had all these patients who, you know, hair loss, like I told you, it's just a it's a fun challenge to me.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: And I really do appreciate the the academic thoughts behind, you know, trying to trying to solve this problem that's like, I mean, everywhere, right?
10:06
SPEAKER_01: And so we have to- Okay, I don't want to interrupt you, but I want you to actually tell our audience why hair loss is such a tricky subdiscipline of dermatology.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think anyone really understands, you know what I mean?
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Like I know you medical professionals, you guys get it, but yeah, tell us just so much to it, right?
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, I I always joke that you know everybody always says the eyes are the windows to the soul.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: It's not the eyes, it's the hair, right?
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Because if you go through a bad breakup, if you lose a loved one, if anything kind of tragic happens in your life, um, or even the last year with COVID, I mean, you see all these stories of rapid hair shedding and this and that, and you know, there it's it's one of the few things where like your your life can reflect your body reflects your life, right?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: And if things happen, there's so many reasons why you can lose hair, medical reasons are abound.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: I I will never forget I had a patient who came in um for a rapid shed hair loss, and I just saw her and I've known her for a while.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And I looked at her and she's like, Oh, yeah, well, you know, can you do one of your fun little like you know, you know, products or whatever it is, or like you know, compounds or or injections?
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Could you just get my hair back?
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And I looked at her, like, you don't look right.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, we need to work you up, there's something else off.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I sent her to a colleague, uh, primary care doctor, they did the workup.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: She came back about three and a half, four months later, and she had a double mastectomy.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: And we had thankfully caught her breast cancer that was early.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it manifested as hair loss.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: And not to scare anybody who's listening to this and thinking that you know they're losing hair, they're they have some sort of thing.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: But that's why it's always important, you know.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: I always hate all these fad things out there, and I think marketing goes so far in hair loss because they prey on people's insecurities.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: But you should see an expert.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: And obviously, I'm biased, but like it could be any derm, or you know, any any any specialist, um dermatologist who's trained on this stuff.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, we we don't just look at you as like, okay, you're losing hair, what do we do?
11:47
SPEAKER_00: It's more like, okay, let's just look at the big picture, let's look at your health.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, could they Yeah, I mean, you're your doctors at the end of the day who are gonna look at your whole body.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the end of the day, people, I completely agree with you.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: I think that um, you know, dermatology, especially right now with all of the, you know, I guess social media and influence and whatnot, it's turning into this very like um vanity-driven uh, you know, just exposure in terms of how it's being presented to the public.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: And I really don't like that either because it's it's a you know very interesting, very in-depth science.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: And that's not being, you know what I mean?
12:21
SPEAKER_01: That's it's not being highlighted enough.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: So I really love that you're you're bringing this up.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean it's important, right?
12:26
SPEAKER_00: Because again, you're you're when people come into our office, they're very vulnerable, right?
12:29
SPEAKER_00: And you never can dismiss that.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: And you have to be your job is to be a doctor, a scientist, a healer first, everything else second, right?
12:36
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we're not marketing people, we're not salespeople, so you got to be a doctor, you know, first and foremost.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we had a lot of cases of hair loss come in, and obviously there's lots of reason for it, but also on the hair loss side, there's again a lot of marketing gimmicks out there and not many good options.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: So, my job was kind of like I do everything else, kind of hack the system a bit.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And what we started just playing with different formulas, and you know, I was very fortunate.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: My patients kind of always they joke and always call me Willy Wong because I'm always experimenting with something, but we uh we started growing hair in patients who would otherwise failed all your traditional therapies, right?
13:08
SPEAKER_00: And so we you know that started happening, and a lot of our colleagues started sending us patients, like, oh, you you know, whatever.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: And and my response was kind of the same as with SM like, why can't you guys have access to this also?
13:18
SPEAKER_00: So, same thing, we built a tech platform around kind of where the the hair loss option and I let my colleagues, you know, decide what the appropriate treatment is.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's lots of different things.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: I listen to feedback.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: There's a study currently going on at one of the academic centers on the hair loss, um, on just on hair loss and these formulas.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: But again, it was a really fun option.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: And you know, now I think there's uh 10,000 plus patients or something like that who have used it.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: And it's been fascinating to watch the before and afters.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, the emails that we get are insanely emotional and amazing because it's like wow, thank you for getting me through this part of my life where I couldn't feel like myself.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: And you know, again, maybe not the same as some of my SCAR patients or like, you know, obviously my cancer patients, but there is a different kind of I think connection you have with your patients who, you know, again are emotionally going through some things.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: And I I will always be, you know, forever grateful for those interactions.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, I actually wanted to um tell you how amazing your work is because I was looking at your Instagram and I noticed there was a patient, yeah, a case that you posted about um a leg scar.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: And it actually hit me um, you know, on a very personal level because my uncle, like me, my parents are from rural India, and I know growing up, um one of my, you know, one of my uncles, he basically had a fusion that occurred because he got a burn on one of his legs and it fused both of his legs together.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: And at that time in rural India, you don't have access to, you know, just dermatological care or any kind of care that's going to be able to correct that.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: So it was a huge problem.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: And so when I saw that, I was just like, it almost brought, you know what I mean?
14:49
SPEAKER_01: It made me tear up a little bit because I was like, this is real work, this is real medical work.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I I just I love that.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: I love that you're you're doing that.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: So can you talk to us?
14:58
SPEAKER_01: I want you to tell us a little bit more about the work that you do, other than you know, just I I know this podcast is all about skin health, but I really want to know more about those kind of cases.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can tell those are my favorite ones.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, because again, we've almost all the patients who come through my office have been through a you know a bunch of previous treatments, been all around.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: And I get maybe sometimes not the easiest of cases, but you know, again, your job as a healer.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh what I was saying before is very honest and true.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: I get a lot of probably more attention for some of our celebrities things that we do.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: But um, like this is why you you go into medicine, right?
15:32
SPEAKER_00: This is why you become a doctor, this is why I became a dermatologist, is to help people.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: And so those cases are my, I always say they're my my my life memories, right?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's the ones, those are the ones that you know, when I'm when I hang up my shingle and I'm done and retired, like those are the cases I'm gonna think about most, right?
15:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, in one of our patients he had an arm scar that he couldn't really move his arm completely the way it was a young guy, he was like 20 something, 30 something, can't remember.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: And just doing some, and there, and I'll be very honest, I I do some intense cases.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: So God bless my patients for putting up with me.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: But um, but but seeing him be able to move his arm unlike he did previously, and have his like range of motion back, like that was for me, you know, amazing.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: That was an emotional feeling.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, we like these are the patients that like you, you know, I had a patient early in my career.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: It was um, if you remember the New York City slashings, she was one of the first slashing victims.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think from when I saw her the first time, and she wouldn't even look me in the eye, and she was just obviously like just traumatized to when we were done and she gave me a big hug and she was bubbly and fun.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, it was an emotional kind of thing.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, people don't realize it's it's as much for me as it is for the patient.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's those are feelings you can't quite replicate or even like describe because those are like again, those are those life moments that you you cherish forever.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: And and for me, I honestly feel privileged to be able to do that like as a job.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: It's bizarre to me that I get you know the the opportunity to treat these kind of patients, and it's like part of my you know day to day, and it's something I'll never again take for granted.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's phenomenal.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: That's really phenomenal, and I love that you know, this is something you embrace and you take on as you know, a medical professional.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: It's just there's not a lot of people that would take on a lot of cases too, you know what I mean?
17:15
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's really it's refreshing to hear that, especially you're such a young um doctor.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I love that.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: And I actually I I want to shift gears a little bit because um, you know, I someone like you, I'm always curious what your um perspective about skincare is, because obviously, you know, there's a lot of um, you know, medical complications and dermatology, and then that requires actual, you know, uh medical grade care, but in terms of just skincare and the industry, what are your overall um thoughts on that?
17:47
SPEAKER_01: Like the way that it is in terms of consumerism or whatever.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I kind of like where it's going now because obviously there's a lot of fluff out there, honestly, right?
17:54
SPEAKER_00: And I always have to be a doctor and a scientist first, and sometimes the claims I see are kind of like just crazy to me.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: And you know, again, you always prey on people's insecurity with these things, and it's it's unfortunate.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: Like that's what like I always worry about with my patients.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: My job is to educate them, right?
18:07
SPEAKER_00: So with my patients, we talk through options.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: We even help build a platform again.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: My tech world blends into my derm world.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: We built a platform to get discounted prices just directly from manufacturers and skincare brands.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: So not like we don't sell a skincare brand, so to speak, in our office, but if if people want options, we want to get it to have a discounted price.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: But the idea is that, like, you know, truthfully speaking, like you have to educate people.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: No, no two people are the same.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, for me, I've I've been lucky enough to be on ad boards for lots of these companies.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: And I've always said, like, if a skincare brand wants to be legit, they need to have like real experts.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: They're not a group of just marketing people.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: They need to have like doctors that talk about the science, the ingredients.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's a lot more to just selling a lifestyle or you know, whatever it is.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, you need um, you know, I think you need the opportunity to to provide something that's real.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: And you know, people, especially now with this pandemic, like money is a you know, it's a different kind of thing now, right?
19:01
SPEAKER_00: People are much more, I think, cautious about where they're spending money and all that kind of stuff.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think it's like the but the average consumer now, thankfully, is way more educated, right?
19:11
SPEAKER_00: And people are questioning like this whole clean beauty thing.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: I kind of dig that people are are fighting back a little bit.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Because I've always wondered, I think I did press a bunch of times recently where I've been like, hey, dimethicone is not the worst thing on earth, I promise you.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: Like it's you know, or like you know, alcohol is not like you know, it's an OH group on a on a on a carbon, like it's not like gonna kill somebody.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: It's just you know, there's different, there's good and bad everything, and you have to be, I think, mindful of it.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Because I think sometimes people play into the idea that if they if if we don't have something, then it's then it's good and that you know you should throw away everything else.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: And I just always felt like obviously there's bad ingredients out there and you shouldn't use them, but by and large, like I I would hope that most bigger companies look into the science of this stuff and like, all right, this is why we're using this, this is why we're like you know doing that.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: And and I I just feel like I kind of like how people are starting to fight back a little bit more and you know, question.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: And again, I and I always say I'm a student of the game too, right?
20:04
SPEAKER_00: Like things that I think are perfectly fine.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: If there's if there's more literature that support that it's something that we shouldn't use, then we won't use it.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: It's not like you know, things do change and science, you know, tends to mature over time.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: And and I feel like it's okay to to kind of just be as long as you're open to change, but you also can't stigmatize something because one person claimed it's a bad thing.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of people who financially benefit off of fear, and you have to always be mindful of that.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's an excellent point, actually.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Fear is like the biggest driver, I think, for consumerism.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh, oftentimes.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I agree with you.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: And I and you know, for me, like, you know, I understand you're you obviously there is a lot of merit in everything that you said, and I completely 100% agree with you.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: But I often wonder, like, you know, um, I'm always interested in the mental health of things, right?
20:51
SPEAKER_01: We kind of talked about that earlier of, you know, there's a mental health aspect to dermatology or things that are affecting our skin, and everyone can see it.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: So, in that regard, um, the industry, you know, in terms of feel-good products or whatnot, like I feel like, you know, it there needs to be a distinction, right?
21:08
SPEAKER_01: It's like if you're gonna, if you're gonna sell something and say it's anti-aging, then you need the science and you need the doctors and you need that whole medical board there.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: But if you're selling something and saying this is a bath bomb or this is a, you know what I mean?
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's okay, but just don't have claims behind it.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, well, we have um, it's actually funny.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm uh you can tell I'm not a good business person, but I I do try to hold my ethics strong.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: But even on our platform, it's something called Air Health.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: To get on Air Health, obviously we've had a lot of brands reach out to us because we're, I think we're in over 400 offices or something.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: And um, but like we actually turn down skincare brands if they don't have science-based you know advisory boards or a co-founder or founder or whatever it is.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, if we don't see the science, it's a it's a hard no.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: And you know, most people would be like, Well, like you'd be selling their products, you'd be making money off of it.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: But the idea is that like that's not the driver here.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: The driver is to provide you know sensible options for our patients that work and then gonna get them at a discounted price for them, right?
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Like that's the the main Reason and I think to your point, I mean, yeah, if you're saying anti-aging, I mean some of the claims are so crazy, and you just feel helpless because you know, I don't I have a decent following on social media, but nowhere near like you know, these people who are claiming that crystals make you you know age 20 years younger or whatever, and you're right, quartz, quartz rollers, yeah.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: And even like these, like you know, these celery juice crazes, and you're like, where's the science and after stuff?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, again, I uh we we try to stay neutral.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: I I never try to pull anybody down, you know, you're always raised a certain way, so I always try to keep it positive.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And even my my social media feeds, very I think very positive.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: I try to keep it as a safe space because I've always thought about that.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Like whenever you post something or write something, people consume that, and it can alter you know their perception of the day or like their mood.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: So I like I just like happy things, and I'm a happy person, I think.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: So I try to like really push happy, happy stuff.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure I like people like, why don't you talk about this more or this or like demonize this or this?
22:58
SPEAKER_00: And I just some I just live in my little bubble, and I'm like, you know what?
23:01
SPEAKER_01: I just want to that's the best place to be though, you know.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: It's it is.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: We're all we all have different perspectives, and it's you know that it is what it is.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: We don't always have to share opinions that are negative.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: So I hear you, I'm the same way.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: No negativity.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I want to act actually ask you because I know um when I was you know learning a little bit more about you before the interview, that your mother is at the heart of a lot of the things and initiatives that you um get behind.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for you to share that with us, um, if it's not too personal.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, it's uh thankfully it's been okay.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: But my mother, she was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Now it's been six years, I think.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty remarkable because she had, I think, like a 0.001% chance of living, maybe six months at the time.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And so we're lucky because you know, if you were to pick somebody who had a pretty deep understanding of academics and and research and clinical trials, um, I wouldn't be a bad person to bet on, I guess, to figure out what the what the next step should be.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And and less than me, but I my sister probably even more so.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And so we deep dive into all the trials and this, and we were able to find one that worked for her and you know, take a chance, and it's thankfully worked out.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: But you know, I learned a lot of important lessons.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: So, number one was nothing is guaranteed, right?
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Like every world was completely fine until one day you wake up and you're you know, your mom has stage for lung cancer, and you're like, whoa, and she's never smoked or drank or anything.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, this is she doesn't even curse.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, she's like the nicest person on earth.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: So you're like, how does this, you know, first of all, you try to just like what the heck's gonna be?
24:28
SPEAKER_00: She wasn't even cursed.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like you're like, please, so you know, you try to like, you know, you try to figure out, you know, what is the I always look for silver linings in life, everything, whether it's like this COVID pandemic, whether it's a sickness for a family, whatever it is.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: And so my silver lining was like, look, two things.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: One is you will be now the closest family on earth as long as you're allowed to be, you know, be all together.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: And two, you'll not take anything for granted.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of like I build a lot of companies and projects, right?
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Like I probably have more tech companies and skincare lines than anybody I know, but the truth is, um, it's because I was I I taught myself very fast.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: There's no no tomorrow guaranteed, so you gotta do it now.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: And then even like, you know, part of this stuff, you know, with this, like even more recently, we found out that she doesn't qualify for the drug that she's on in her trial, or because the trial was ended, so we have to pay out of pocket and it's a pretty significant expense.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm fortunate enough to be in a place and our family is that we can handle it and it's fine, it's not gonna be you know anything detrimental to life, but it's obviously a a number amount that's significant, and then you start thinking about the other part of it.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: You're like, all right, wait, so like we might be okay, but what about the next person?
25:34
SPEAKER_00: And why are they not okay?
25:36
SPEAKER_00: And you know, like what if they have to choose between putting food on the table or caring for somebody, like literally keeping somebody alive?
25:42
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, again, you you drive deep purpose on things, and for me, it was weird because I I had a moment where I was talking to my sister and I was like, this is exactly why we did skin medicinals, right?
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Like it's so people don't have to choose between the two, and it's like life's irony, and now in this position.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: And so, in a weird way, it kind of helps you double down on why you're doing what you're doing.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: And so, again, we'll like will we be fine?
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you know, it does spark that notion that there's still a lot of work to be done, and you know, when you have something like that kind of going on, you I again I think purpose is a very important thing that we sometimes lose sight of, and yeah, everything I do has again some sort of like purpose as to why we're doing it or what you know, whatever that is, and you kind of have to again be mindful of things a lot more than you otherwise would be when when you're in situations like that.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I I love that you've uh gained so much motivation from this um experience, and I and I you know wish your mother nothing but the best.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you know, she's a fighter.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: She's a fighter.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes, she is, she's very much so.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I I actually I just have you know, I don't even know what to ask you because I feel like you have done so many different things.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: So I want you know, let me just say I want to know more about what you're working on right now.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: What's your favorite project that you're working on right now that you're um really dedicated to?
26:55
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think all of it, but uh I mean my S my skin medicinal is hair stemmer was gonna be my my kind of baby, only because again, they they're taking a lot of work, but those are like I think we've been it's been cool to kind of create a new paradigm for care.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: I think that's you know, again, we're approaching 200,000 patients served on on skin medicinals, which is crazy to me.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: And you know, that's like that's like a lifetime worth of work.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: So I I'm appreciative there.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: We have some fun skincare, you know, collaborations coming um soon.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Um I can't I think I get like shot if I talk about them.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: So I'll hold still a little bit more uh private.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: But you know, we we have some fun celebrity friends that you know I I deeply care about.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: They're more than honestly, they're more than the friends, they've become like family.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we have a couple different projects coming out in that space.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's again more the creative kind of part of it.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: I do like the idea that you can take that formulation, you know, experience that we've had on the medical side, bring it more to the like just caring for your skin.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's not even like anti-aging or that kind of stuff.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: I think like skin wellness is a category that people sometimes forget about.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: And you know, much like when you work out your muscles to become stronger and things like that, there is an idea that you can approach skincare with that wellness mentality too, and to I mean, honestly just care for yourself so that as you age um gracefully, you can age on your own terms and you don't have, you know, the issues that could otherwise happen if you neglect your skin or your skin health as a whole.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: Now I want to actually ask you this before um anything is is if you were to recommend for everybody listening, you know, just the average person, some healthy habits or lifestyle changes that really do make an impact on overall skin health.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, could you give us uh some tips?
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, so I'm always gonna say sunscreen, you know, every dermatologist on earth is, and I actually joke because one of our one of our closest friends is Martha Stewart, and everybody asked what Martha Stewart's aging kind of secret is.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: And I said honestly, she is more obsessed with sunscreen than anybody I know.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: And I would argue that she's aging better than any person on earth right now.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: So I would I I'd take her advice for me, but uh but it you know, I I think that's part of it, um, honestly.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think keeping it simple, like you don't have to have all these like I think everybody overexfoliates themselves to death.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, honestly, it's like people keep ripping off their skin.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I like more calming stuff, I like repairing the skin barrier, I like like nurturing things as opposed to stripping them off, right?
29:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, I do I strip things off.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do lasers and resurfacing and stuff like that, but there's also a time and a place for it, and maybe once a year or something, just to kind of like quote unquote shed that skin, you know, like that's okay.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: But I think when you do it all day, every day, multiple times a day, you can actually get yourself in more harm than you anticipate.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: And so for me, I you know, I like to keep it simple.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: You're your gentle cleansing, you're you're you're wearing your sunset, you're over moisturizing, which is not a bad thing, and then like simple things, you know.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I love Bacuccio, I think it's a cool ingredient, I think it works.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Or you does it work?
29:52
SPEAKER_01: I see that's something I need to know.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Does it work really?
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Because everybody is telling me one thing or another.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: It does work, okay.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: So coming from somebody who's played with it in the lab setting and clinical setting, it does work for sure.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: I think, I mean, I don't want to get into it because again, I don't say bad things about people, but there's some brands who claim Bacuccio don't actually use any Bacuccio, which is probably why it doesn't work.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: But uh there is a, you know, again, there is, and much like you know, so example like Martha loves CBD, and I was a big doubter of CBD early because the science, you know, I don't like when marketing precedes science.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: I need like the actual data to be able to jump on something.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a great ingredient, but again, they're like people are claiming that it does, God knows what, and all this, and then you know, for me, it's like slow down, slow down, slow down.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: And similar to Bacuccio, like the studies were legit in the beginning.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: That's why all the derms were really excited about it.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: And you know, the question is like, okay, so but how much do we need?
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the percentage of this?
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Because it does like that's the thing people don't understand about formulations.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, just because they put in buzzwords like vitamin C or vitamin E, it literally means nothing until you look at the big picture.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: How much vitamin C, how is it formulated, how is it delivered, you know, is it encapsulated?
30:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, whatever it is, like there's so much more to it.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I would joke the Martha example is my favorite, where you can give both her and I the same ingredients.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: One of us would make an incredible chocolate souffle, the other one will make something that's likely not good enough to test.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's like you have to be, you know, again, there is so much more into formulations that people understand that people don't understand.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, like, you know, when whether I'm formulating, whether I'm recommending products, like everything should have a purpose in your routine.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: And again, less is more in life, in every every facet of life, right?
31:30
SPEAKER_00: So I think people should less fixate on adding more and more and more products, but just making sure that the ones that they do use are correct and actually doing what they want them to do.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Now, what is your opinion of chemists in all of this?
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Because I know you mentioned formula formulating.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: So, like in terms of the chemistry aspect, like how does that come in for you personally when you're formulating something?
31:49
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, they're like our the they're like our you know, our ace up the hole.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you have to have a good chemistry team that can make these things because you know at the end of the day, I can say my you know, it's all we have to know where our talents lie and where they obviously don't lie as well, right?
32:02
SPEAKER_00: I can say this percentage I want of this or this of this and this.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: I need a chemist to help me make it happen, right?
32:07
SPEAKER_00: They might have to add a little bit of citric acid to lower the pH or do this or that or whatever it is.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, I I can't like there's certain things that are beyond my scope, and you know, a lot of this is based on you know just experience and and getting things right.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: So I always say you always have to, you know, respect all the players in the game, not just you know, yourself or or one or two key people.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Like it takes uh really does take like a village to to get something right, and so for us, the chemistry aspect I think is is is as important as the formulation.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, again, where does our derm experience come?
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think PNG just published a paper on niacinamide potentially and the effects of retinoids, right?
32:41
SPEAKER_00: Or retinol.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: Like we've kind of done that in the derm world for a while.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: So, like, I've always I like even in our skin medicinals, we've used niacinamide with our retinoids for a long time because we just I mean, it's something that we kind of just know, right?
32:51
SPEAKER_00: But then it takes the pharmacists or chemists, you know, whatever it is, to make sure how do we get this to work, what percentage of niacinamide works with this, what else do we need to do in you know, this formulation to get the results that we want or make it more tolerable?
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of different kind of steps fall into it, but it's not again.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: That's why I think a lot of us are not big fans of it.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Some of these, like kind of like I again, I you always want affordable options, but I think some of these things are like a little bit too basic, where they're having you layer all this stuff on your face and you're like, Whoa, that's not how it works.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you can't just throw a bunch of ingredients on your face and hope that they all work you know the right way.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Like that's just unfortunately not how it is.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: And you know, actually, I want to say this um to everyone listening.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, when you brought up the PNG article, it that actually really bothers me because it's like, you know, if you, for example, you have been using this, like you said in your formulations.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: So I want to actually see a point um in this industry where the people who are publishing these initial articles and results are the dermatologists, you know what I mean?
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Not companies.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: Like when you have a company publish something, that's what consumers see, and that's what they get behind, and that's where that whole um you know mass consumerism mentality really comes from.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Because then you're these people are following a giant company, you know what I mean?
34:06
SPEAKER_01: So they're gonna sell them whatever they want.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you if a dermatologist was the first to come out with that, that'd be very different, in my opinion.
34:12
unknown: Yeah.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Do you agree?
34:13
SPEAKER_00: I see that point of it.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, with I will say PG, I do like them because they do do a lot more science than most, to be very honest.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's like we I always support science, but I do agree.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, but but that's the point of like, you know, why I always root for my colleagues who are doing more social media stuff and more putting themselves out there and educating, because yeah, you know, we kind of need that.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, we need more, like the ASDS right now has a whole thing about how dermatologists are the skincare experts, right?
34:38
SPEAKER_00: And just promoting it.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: It's not like an arrogant way of promoting it, but it's more like, you know, like listen to maybe these guys who who their truthful, like their their life passion and life mission is to improve skin health, right?
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Like they don't have, you know, maybe or hopefully not have the conflicts that other people have, and you know, they're motivated by science.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: And so we are seeing more and more educational kind of things out there.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I see like my colleague, like I was watching something Sharina Driss put out yesterday, like one of her stories.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: She has a fun way of talking about science and stuff like that, which I like.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of my colleagues, again, they're putting out really good content, which I appreciate.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think it's a collaborative approach.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: Again, I will never like with PNG, I've seen, like, I've seen the the scientists, I met them, and I'm like, you know what?
35:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, respect to you guys are doing it the right way.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Because again, unfortunately, a lot of people don't do it at all.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I appreciate that, but I do think that you're right in the sense where like we need more dermatologists and and really skin experts at the forefront because at the end of the day, like, what is influence, right?
35:34
SPEAKER_00: Influence is the ability to change somebody's behavior, and right this incredible power and the responsibility really should go to the people who again you should you otherwise would trust to do so, not maybe necessarily the ones who might have other financial reasons for influencing.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been amazing.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: I could honestly like pick your mind and brain for hours.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: So I would love to have you back anytime if you have the you know time in your schedule.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, I'd be love to but yeah, thank you so much.
36:05
SPEAKER_01: This has been wonderful.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: And I hope everyone out there, um, I hope you gained some insight and enjoyed this conversation.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you so much, Dr.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: Bonasali.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: This was great.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you guys have any questions for you know me or his team, just leave something in the comments.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: We will definitely pass along the message.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: Thank you guys.
36:30
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