Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Lawyer then prison, homeless, and now CEO: The Jeffrey Abramowitz Story

Transcript

Lawyer then prison, homeless, and now CEO: The Jeffrey Abramowitz Story · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:02
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:05
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
0:08
Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
0:12
nightmares that set yourself free.
0:14
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:16
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:21
These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
0:25
humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
0:28
something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
0:30
built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back nine
0:36
more success in and out listeners.
0:38
This is where you come for hear what happens when your worst
0:40
free becomes your reality. How do you adapt, survive,
0:42
overcome, set yourself free and don't forget to follow.
0:46
Subscribe like this thing out helps the show folks.
0:50
I have I've been really looking forward to this interview.
0:54
Jeffrey Abramowitz is somebody that you know it it's it's one
1:01
of those I think a lot of people TuneIn to this show because you
1:04
want to see somebody does experience their worst
1:07
nightmare. They survive.
1:10
They have to figure it out. They, they have to, you know,
1:13
find out who they are and, and then that opportunity of
1:17
whatever they do after that, it's, it's kind of like the old
1:19
rocky movies. You, you want to see the guy
1:21
come back and, and get in the ring and fight.
1:24
Well, Jeff's got it it. It's just he's he's, he's
1:28
currently the CEO of PD grain and PD grain educates people
1:32
impacted by the justice system. They do incredible work and Jeff
1:37
has he, you know, he's an educator, he's an author.
1:40
He's, he's sitting behind the, the, the booth today at one O
1:44
6.5. He's a radio television host and
1:48
and a very strong voice for the an advocate for the justice
1:54
system and reform and education. He's also got a looking forward
2:00
show that's podcast He does. I think it might be part of the
2:03
one O 6.5. But he's, he's a guy that, you
2:09
know, he was practicing law in Philadelphia and he, he ran into
2:13
some bad choices with clients and it ended up he got a five
2:18
year sentence. But the, the interesting thing
2:21
was, and I would take a little bit of what about his story
2:24
here? He said entering the criminal
2:27
justice system allowed Jeff the opportunity to see the world
2:29
with a new pair of glasses and find his passion for education
2:33
and workplace development. He spoken and lectured across
2:37
the country to educators, administrators, business
2:39
professionals, employers, communities and touched by the
2:42
criminal justice system. And when I say that he's a part
2:45
of the education world, when I say a part of the he he's he's
2:48
seen and used as an expert with the Department of Education.
2:52
So and saying all that, when Jeff got out, I think he spent a
2:59
year or so in a homeless shelter.
3:02
So things were not easy for Jeff as often times as the case when
3:09
people get out and re enter society and how he stepped
3:12
through that. And I, I was watching one of his
3:16
his podcast today. He was a guest.
3:19
He was talking about one specific trophy moment that I
3:21
want to talk to him about. But before we get it all that I
3:25
want to recognize our show sponsor, auto Plaza direct.
3:28
You know, who likes spending a couple of weekends walking car
3:30
lots looking for a car And he spent four or five hours in the
3:32
dealership to buy a car. It's kind of like a root canal
3:35
appointment. Well, there's a better way to
3:37
take care of all that pain and hassle getting a car.
3:39
It's called auto Plaza direct. They're your personal car
3:41
concierge. Just tell them the car you want,
3:44
what you can pay and they'll go find that car for you.
3:46
Negotiate your best price. They also offer you warranties
3:49
and financing. It's all full service.
3:52
Go to autoplazadirect.com to get started with your personal car
3:55
concierge. It's a new hassle freeway the
3:57
car buying experience you deserve auto Plaza direct.
4:00
Tell them Brent from nightmare success sent you Jeff welcome
4:03
in. Thank you for making the time.
4:05
No, thanks so much for having me.
4:07
I'm glad to be here. So what is what a story Jeff I
4:12
I, these are the type of stories I love.
4:14
You know, you know, you're in in and out of prisons all the time
4:19
with education that this goes into 1100 prisons.
4:22
Your story is about hope. It's it's one to to know that
4:27
you can be in a homeless shelter, but you can work your
4:30
passion and and be back to somewhere where you know that
4:33
you're making all kinds of change and impact.
4:37
Being where you are with the PDB Green program and being at the
4:41
top of that food chain. Take us back a little bit.
4:44
What growing up. I was born.
4:47
Yeah, tell us, tell us. Tell us what?
4:50
Your parents, siblings, where Where'd you grow up?
4:54
I grew up in Philadelphia in, in the city of Philadelphia.
4:57
And from as long as I can remember as a kid, I was wanting
5:01
to be a lawyer. Like I just, I was enamoured by
5:03
the courtroom. I remember as a kid going into
5:06
court, my one of my friends, their dad was a judge and he
5:09
used to invite me in to come and listen to the, the arguments.
5:12
I was going to be a trial lawyer since I was wow in my, I guess
5:16
my early teens. Wow.
5:17
And then yeah, I went back and grew up in Philly.
5:20
I have a younger brother, older sister, my mom and dad, no
5:23
class, kind of enjoyed life. I had really never wanted for
5:27
anything. I would say pretty privileged,
5:29
although not wealthy. Wealthy, just never really
5:31
wanted for anything and went to high school and then I found my
5:35
dream. Went to college at Ohio State
5:38
and law school in Michigan and came back to Philadelphia and
5:43
was with the same firm and practiced there for over 20
5:45
years as a lawyer. That's a long time anywhere.
5:49
Trial. Trial attorney, Right.
5:51
I was a trial lawyer, spent most of my days in the courtroom and
5:54
I it was a skill set that I eventually used and to navigate
6:01
prison and coming home was in, it was crazy like that.
6:04
You don't think about those transferable skills that you
6:07
have. So many of them came from my
6:10
being a lawyer and and learning how to talk to people and and
6:13
work with people. So Jeff, when you were you, you
6:17
went through all these things you, you, you know, great
6:20
schools, Ohio State, Michigan, great law firm, great career.
6:28
When did when did? How did this happen where you're
6:32
looking at a a nightmare of your own?
6:38
Yeah, I so it's a really hard question to ask because I asked
6:42
why. I've asked myself that a lot.
6:44
But I think that sometimes it comes in the choices that you
6:48
make. So everyone that goes through
6:50
the justice system, they often say, well, I made AI, made a
6:53
mistake. No, I don't think people make
6:55
mistakes. I think we make choices in life
6:58
and sometimes they're not the best choices in the world.
7:01
Albert Einstein's got a great line.
7:02
He says if you make 10 bad choices a day, you're just not
7:05
trying hard enough. And because his philosophy was
7:08
that's how we learn. We do something we don't do so
7:10
well, we go back and do it over again.
7:12
Now mind you, not all of your choices land you in prison or a
7:15
federal prison. But the choices I made really
7:18
were. They were really about about
7:23
being misguided, about what's really important in life and in
7:27
my place in life. I think we all have a journey to
7:31
to try and decipher as we get up every day and try to figure out,
7:35
well, you know, what's our purpose?
7:37
What are we going to be doing? You know, why am I doing this?
7:40
And it took me a little while to figure it all out.
7:42
Like I knew I, I knew I loved being a lawyer, but I also knew
7:46
that there was something more to the world.
7:48
And the choices I made, made in life just landed me that way.
7:53
And, and I had a lot, I mean, I had cars, I had family, I had
7:56
homes. I had a beautiful daughter, a
7:58
wonderful, wonderful wife at the time.
8:01
And you know, I had what everyone would think is a dream.
8:05
You know, you just, you just are happy marriage.
8:08
You go on vacations, you travel the world and you do all those
8:11
wonderful things. But the truth was I really
8:13
wasn't happy. I didn't really have that drive
8:16
and purpose that I have now that I was searching for and even as
8:20
a lawyer. That's interesting because, you
8:23
know, you think when you see the people that have the American
8:25
dream there, there's they don't think there's any problems and
8:30
there's always, you know, even when you have money, that just
8:33
means you don't worry about money.
8:34
You still have problems. You still have issues that you
8:36
have to work through when you were getting, you know, when,
8:40
when we all go through this, this, this criminal justice
8:43
journey, was it something that you were keeping to yourself?
8:48
Did you think it was a big deal? Did your wife know about it?
8:51
What we or was it just all on your shoulders at the time,
8:54
Jeff? No, for years it was on my
8:57
shoulders. It was building and, and I, you
8:59
know, obviously I brought my wife in when I knew that, that,
9:03
that, that I was going to be into trouble and was open with
9:06
her to try and help myself kind of navigate it.
9:11
But the truth was that, you know, when I was sentenced, I
9:15
always say the two most important days of your life are
9:17
the day you're born. And people often say the day you
9:20
die. And I would say the second most
9:22
important day of your life is the day you figure out why you
9:25
were born. And for me, it was in a
9:27
courtroom in March of 2012 when a judge's gavel struck wood.
9:31
And at that moment in time, I, it's frozen for me because at
9:36
that point in time, besides two men coming up from behind me
9:40
taking off my wedding band and removing my belt and my tie and
9:44
taking my wallet out and kissing my wife for what would that be?
9:47
The last time I I was had this incredible sense of relief,
9:52
which is going and. That's, that's amazing because
9:55
I, when I read that about your situation, I think everybody was
9:58
shocked. I'm sure you were shocked
10:00
because in most cases when you get sentenced, as I was, I was
10:06
given a month of two months. Actually, I was sentenced
10:10
November 13th and I went to Leavenworth January 14th.
10:15
You were immediately remanded. I was thrown right into the
10:19
fire. I went right into general
10:21
population, and I was taken right from the courtroom.
10:24
And there's an underground tunnel that actually a bunch of
10:28
tunnels that take you into the federal prison in Philadelphia.
10:31
And I was taken right there. But I remember sitting in a
10:34
holding cell in Philadelphia and I was bucked naked.
10:37
Like I literally was stripped out.
10:39
And I sat there for a good few hours waiting for them to find a
10:41
jumpsuit and to transport me to where I was going.
10:45
Jeff, what was going through your mind?
10:46
I mean, sitting in that situation, we were just in the
10:48
courtroom and you've gone through all these tunnels and
10:51
all of a sudden they stripped you down.
10:52
What? What in the world does someone
10:54
think in that situation? So for me, it was, this is over.
10:58
Like this journey, this chapter is ending.
11:02
And this tremendous relief came over to me that was like, I
11:05
don't have to hide anything anymore.
11:07
And I promised myself a few things.
11:08
One, I promised myself that I was going to do my best to try
11:11
and understand why it happened. So it never happened again.
11:15
And then the second thing I promised myself was to figure
11:17
out what was the message like? What was it I was supposed to be
11:21
learning on this? And from that second on, I to
11:25
this day, to this very day as we sit here today, Brent, I am a
11:28
sponge. I want to learn from everything,
11:30
from everyone. I listen all the time.
11:33
I want to understand people's journeys, their stories, how I
11:37
can be better. What is it that I should be
11:39
doing in this world? And, and, and that that to me
11:42
was I started my very first journey just beginning to read.
11:46
I read over 1000 books while I was away.
11:48
I taught 65 classes while I was away.
11:51
Like I learned from everyone. I practiced every single
11:54
religion there was in prison. Like I went to call to prayer.
11:57
I'm Jewish. I went to call to prayer with my
11:59
Muslim friends. I sat in Christian prostate
12:02
services. I went to you name it.
12:04
I did it because I really wanted to understand the world.
12:07
And this allowed me to see the humanity inside our prisons and
12:11
jails that I would never have gotten to see.
12:14
How did you get because I know you did a lot when you were in
12:17
and and taught a lot. Is that something that you know
12:21
when you first got there? You know, first thing is you got
12:25
to try to get set up. I mean, I remember my first day
12:27
vividly, you know, but I was one of the things I was most shocked
12:30
about when I went in was is immediately how many people
12:34
wanted to help me, which was a shock to me.
12:37
When you went into that world, Jeff, was it in the back of your
12:41
mind that you were going to get into this education thing, or
12:43
how did that come to you while you were in prison?
12:46
No, I taught a little bit while I was under indictment.
12:49
I taught a little bit in college.
12:50
I always wanted to teach, I just never knew that how much it was
12:54
needed inside our prisons and jails.
12:56
But when I first got in, my first cellmate was serving a
13:00
double life term. He wasn't getting out and he and
13:04
I remember the the first day I didn't sleep the first night, as
13:07
you can imagine, but I looked out the cell door when the the
13:11
cells open for breakfast. I looked out and I saw a line of
13:15
men there with all of their legal material and because.
13:18
They'd seen my the attorney. I saw my case on the news the
13:22
night before, and they're like Christmas.
13:24
Yeah, we got a lawyer in our unit.
13:26
Now, that never really happened, but my cellmate took me under
13:30
his wing and and showed me how, you know, what I needed to know.
13:34
And yeah, the camaraderie inside of a prison is something pretty
13:37
remarkable. In each, I was only in two
13:39
places, one in FTC Philadelphia, and then at a place called USP
13:43
Canaan, which is a pretty bad place.
13:44
But in both those places, the men there were when I got there,
13:48
unbelievably supported of OK, dude, we're going to help you.
13:53
And I found sneakers on my bed or sweatshirts or, you know,
13:56
people giving me books all the time.
13:58
And, and they really, it was a remarkable experience just
14:02
seeing that, not really knowing what was going to be next.
14:05
And I made the best out of prison.
14:07
I really did. I I don't think, Brent, that I
14:09
would have gotten as much out of it if I was just there for a few
14:13
months or even a year. I think it was the fact that I
14:16
was doing longer time, in the white collar sense at least,
14:20
that helped me really understand the prison system.
14:25
And then coming home and being homeless, definitely I saw a
14:27
side of society. That, you know, that's, that's
14:29
interesting, Jeff, the way that you perceive that, that if you
14:33
had done shorter time, you wouldn't have got the full
14:37
essence for your from yourself of why and what and how, Because
14:42
I, I, I remember the night that I was, we, we had driven to
14:47
Leavenworth just to look the night before.
14:51
And I was with my wife and I was looking down there because I
14:54
could see the guys walking the fence line.
14:56
You know, that there was a fence and the barbed wire and that
14:58
they were just that's on that sidewalk.
15:01
I could start seeing the, the lights of the, of the different
15:04
wings of the prison and in a weird sense went over me like,
15:08
Oh my gosh, I'm not just going there for next week.
15:12
I'm not going there for a month or a year.
15:15
I've got a five year sentence and it's a it's a lot to take in
15:18
that you your life is not temporary.
15:22
You are setting up there and you've got to make it work.
15:26
It is. And, and maybe you can relate to
15:28
this, but there was also this sense that I needed to
15:31
understand how to control what I could control.
15:34
Like I knew that I couldn't pay my bills anymore.
15:37
Like I didn't have a house like my wife was now she was going to
15:41
oversee a lot of that. I couldn't, I couldn't control
15:44
things anymore from that end. And in a way, it helped me focus
15:47
on myself and you know, what was it that I was going to do next?
15:50
And how was I, what did I, what was I going to learn?
15:53
And, and, and that's what I really concentrated on.
15:55
Look, while I was away, I learned how to change oil on a
15:58
car and work in a garage. I learned how to operate a
16:01
forklift. I oversaw the Unicorp project in
16:03
the prison that I was at. I, I did so many crazy things.
16:08
I lost 55 lbs. I was in the best shape of my
16:12
life as a 5055 year old. And it was, it was, it was just
16:17
remarkable. But I, I did get everything that
16:20
I could out of prison. I really, and I know it sounds
16:23
terrible, but I left prison a way different person with
16:26
different glasses than I walked in there.
16:30
When you say left of as a different person, what would be
16:32
the thing that you you feel like you walked away with?
16:35
It was different walking in. I didn't really see it for until
16:39
recently is that I take responsibility for everything
16:44
and and I mean everything. Like I walked down the street
16:47
today and it's my responsibility to see someone that's homeless.
16:52
Like I walked past them before as a lawyer for 20 something
16:56
years and they were invisible to me.
16:58
And now it's my responsibility to see them, to say, how can I
17:02
help you? What can I do?
17:04
It's it's that sense of responsibility for myself and
17:07
for the actions that I take as well as the people around me.
17:10
Like, what can I be doing better to help leave my mark in this
17:14
world and and to improve it? And that's the way I face every
17:17
day. Look, I wish for everyone that
17:19
passion that I get up every day to just find find what gets you
17:24
going. Yeah.
17:25
And then just go do it. Yeah, I you had said some and it
17:29
was either written or in a in another show.
17:33
The self responsibility, the empathy and compassion, the
17:35
persistence of of how you basically live.
17:38
You know, it's, it's what drives you.
17:41
I'm curious though, Jeff, when you and as we do get close to
17:45
the door, you know, six months, you know, sometimes 12 months
17:50
before you're, you're thinking about getting out.
17:52
What were you thinking? What was on the other side of
17:54
that for re entry? Oh man, I was thinking, what are
17:58
you going to do? A 50 year old lawyer who can't
18:01
practice anymore? You know, I, I don't, what was I
18:04
going to do? I had a felony conviction.
18:06
I couldn't, I didn't know I was going to get a bank account when
18:08
I got home because I had a financial crime.
18:10
I had no idea what was going on. I did know this.
18:14
I did know that I loved helping people.
18:16
I loved teaching and I knew that needed to play a big role or
18:20
part in what I was going to do. But I also knew I wasn't going
18:23
to start at the very top. My first job coming home was
18:26
living in a shelter. I found a job a few blocks away
18:29
from the shelter teaching GED math in North Philadelphia, one
18:33
of the most challenging areas of our.
18:34
Jeff, we can't just paint over that.
18:37
How in the world did you end up in a shelter?
18:40
So I'm just a proud person and I dug this hole for myself.
18:47
And and that's the same thing I, I felt with the whole journey
18:50
was that I was not about to. I opened the door up.
18:54
And once you open the door up by making a bad choice and you have
18:57
no reason to complain about what happens next because you open
19:01
that door. I opened the door by doing
19:03
something and making a choice that was wrong.
19:05
And anything that flowed from that I took as I needed to learn
19:08
from it. I needed to make it a lesson.
19:11
So I, I, when I came home, that's was my belief.
19:15
It was like I opened the door up.
19:16
Now I need to do it myself. So although I had some family
19:20
that I could have gone to, my parents, maybe I wanted to
19:23
figure this out on my own. I got divorced while I was away,
19:27
so I didn't have a home per SE to go.
19:29
Back that had to been tough. I, I had so many guys that I,
19:32
you know, I, I feel like I, I didn't lose my wife when I, you
19:37
know, through this process, but I had so many guys, Jeff, that
19:39
did and close to me. And that hadn't been tough for
19:46
you to to will yourself in, in, in, out of that situation, in
19:50
that situation, to work through that being in prison.
19:54
I was married I was married for over 24 years and I have a
19:57
amazing daughter who lives near me now and actually expecting my
20:00
first grandchild soon in. January.
20:03
I got divorced while I was away and as hard as that was while I
20:07
was inside, it was probably the very best thing that happened to
20:10
me because if I had come home and there was an expectation,
20:13
I'd be go back to my wife. I don't know that I could do
20:16
what I'm doing today. Like I'm super transparent about
20:19
my journey and and what happened to me.
20:21
And I don't know that reliving it every day is something that
20:24
would have made her happy. So she got to move on and I just
20:28
recently got remarried in July to an amazing woman.
20:31
And, and, and for me that that's allowed me to continue doing
20:36
this work and stay on this path. So as much as hard as it was
20:39
when it first happened, it was also, it was also kind of a
20:43
blessing that it happened and allowed both of us to move on.
20:46
That's interesting. So you get out, you decide
20:51
you're not going to ask for any help, so you end up at a
20:54
homeless shelter. And I did and and and you were
21:00
there for a while. I was there for a while.
21:03
I, I was there for a while. And I, it began, it began as
21:09
this kind of, OK, let's figure this out.
21:12
And then the shelter that I was in, had I known what I was
21:16
coming back to, I probably would have waived my good time and
21:19
stayed inside because it was in the heart of North Philadelphia
21:22
where, you know, the halfway house was, it was a money, it
21:26
was a private, a private shelter.
21:29
And it was a place where, you know, finding toilet paper every
21:33
day to wipe your butt was the challenge.
21:35
And the food was not edible. So every meal was finding food
21:39
on the outside. It was knowing you didn't have
21:41
money for transportation. So you're walking everywhere.
21:44
And there were people in my unit.
21:46
I lived in A4 four. There's four people in my in my
21:49
room that was probably 10 by 10. And, and people were overdosing
21:54
on a regular basis. K2 was the drug of choice.
21:58
And, you know, I really began to understand some of those real
22:02
big challenges, you know, So again, these were learning
22:07
experiences for me, but they also opened the door up for me
22:11
to understand better how you begin to fix a system that's
22:14
horribly broken. Well, I mean by by walking in
22:18
those and on that path, you definitely would, because you
22:21
know exactly what it is and you, you don't have to ask somebody
22:26
for an experience. You experienced it the the new
22:31
opportunity workshop. Where on the on your journey did
22:35
you find that cause it? To me, that's a big part of your
22:38
story. And, and the way I see your
22:42
story is it was like the that time that somebody recognized
22:46
you again, Jeff, that Hey, I gave you a little bit of
22:50
confidence that, Hey, I've I'm, I'm stepping, I went to this
22:53
thing. I'm can you tell us a little
22:54
about a little bit about that and how and how you found that?
22:58
I didn't even know how you found the new Opportunity Workshop.
23:02
So I found it. It was mine.
23:03
I started it when I was AI was a director at.
23:08
So I started teaching GED math at what's now beyond literacy at
23:12
the time was Community Learning Center.
23:13
And while I was there, I began to network.
23:17
I began to start justice impacted programming for people
23:20
coming home. And then I said, you know what?
23:23
I realized people needed to find work in a meaningful way and
23:27
started the National Workforce Opportunity Network with a
23:30
colleague and I, I realized quickly that I could be doing
23:34
more and that workforce development was part of the
23:37
problem, but it really centered on education.
23:40
There was too many people coming to me that couldn't read or
23:42
write, didn't have digital literacy skills, didn't have
23:45
financial literacy skills that really needed that support more
23:49
than they needed a job. And I always say this, you know,
23:52
when we talk about people that are just disinvolved, it
23:54
shouldn't be about putting somebody in a job.
23:56
It should be helping them find a career.
23:58
Because if you put them into a restaurant, Taco Bell or a
24:03
McDonald's or any of fast food chains and it's not something
24:06
they want to do, then the the choices really are what's going
24:10
to happen a few months down the road.
24:12
I'm going to get a call. Yo, Mr. AI can't flip another
24:15
burger. I can't fry another fry.
24:17
I need to find something I love to do.
24:19
And too often, you know, at that point in time, people start
24:23
having responsibility and they now have an apartment and a car
24:26
and all these other things going on.
24:27
They're paying the restitution back.
24:29
And when all of that stops because they transfer jobs,
24:33
that's where trouble begins. So understanding all of that.
24:37
And so I was at N1 for a while. I started it and then realized
24:40
that there was something bigger for me.
24:42
And, and I interviewed for a job I never thought I'd gotten and
24:47
that was with Jeb's Human Services, which is the largest
24:50
workforce development agency in Philadelphia.
24:52
They operate our career one stop American Job Center here in the
24:55
city, suburban station and they service so many people.
24:59
But they brought me on as an executive director overseeing
25:03
their justice programs, and that to me was just.
25:06
How long have you been out and home when that happened?
25:10
Yeah, I was home about 3 years, 3 1/2 years before I got that
25:13
job. And once I got the job, things
25:17
began to take off with a big organization or $800 million
25:22
nonprofit with them behind you. It's been around 70 years.
25:26
I learned how to operate a big organization.
25:28
I learned how to manage people. I learned how to, how to really
25:32
get programming off the ground at a very basic and then and
25:37
from all of that, I was able to begin my transition and, and
25:41
crazy things started happening. I got a call from the Attorney
25:44
General's office and they asked me to be part of the
25:46
Pennsylvania Reentry Council in Harrisburg, PA and took that
25:51
job, now part of chair, the employment subdivision there,
25:54
took a seat on the Pennsylvania Workforce Development Board in
25:56
Harrisburg. And then the day that I got my
25:59
job at Jeff's Human Services, I received a call from the
26:03
Coalition on Adult Basic Education and Co AB and they
26:06
said, look, we don't do anything with our people that are adult
26:10
learners in our country that are justice involved.
26:12
Can you start the prison literacy committee nationally?
26:16
And that put my whole career into super OverDrive and focused
26:21
me on education and workforce development and justice.
26:24
And that's where I kind of sit in the center of.
26:27
Well, it just happened. You just kept stepping into it.
26:30
And the other thing that I think is important too, Jeff, for
26:35
people that are listening, that are feel like they're stuck or
26:38
they, they get this imposter syndrome that they think that
26:41
they shouldn't be in this position or they shouldn't be in
26:43
that position. I don't know if that happened to
26:47
you, but it certainly didn't stop you.
26:49
Still does. Still does, yeah.
26:52
It still does. Yeah, I I always say, look, the
26:56
sentence that I gave myself was far worse than anything a judge
27:00
could have given me. Like I sentenced myself to life.
27:03
And it's a life of, you know, of I I can't, I can't make up time
27:07
for my daughter that I lost and my my ex-wife that I lost and
27:11
the pain that I caused my family and my friends.
27:14
Like I can't ever make any of that back.
27:16
And that was all part of that, this forgiveness.
27:19
I think over the past few years in particular, I'm home nine
27:21
years, but it's only within the last few years I began really to
27:25
forgive myself and say, you know what, you're doing some good
27:28
work, need to keep doing this and not be ashamed of.
27:31
Forgive yourself. Yeah.
27:33
What was it like? Because I I haven't done it yet.
27:36
I've been back eight years. What was it like going back into
27:39
the prison? So I'm in many of them now I've
27:42
gosh, last year I gave probably some 40 keynote addresses around
27:46
the country. And as a subject matter expert
27:48
for the US Department of Education and doing a lot of
27:51
work in the, in this space, I am constantly in prisons and jails,
27:55
especially as the CEO of the PD Green program.
27:57
Because we're in so many jails and prisons around the country.
28:01
It is still a place where I, I continue to get very nervous
28:06
when I'm inside, but I also am very relieved to have the
28:10
opportunity to talk to people there and for giving them some
28:14
glasses to see this could be you.
28:17
And if you stay focused on what you want to do that you can come
28:22
out the other side a better person.
28:23
So I'm grateful for the opportunity to go in, but I'd be
28:26
honest with. You it still gives you a little
28:28
bit a churn. Yeah, it's it still gives me the
28:31
willies every time I go in. Well, I want to take a break
28:34
here because I want to When I get back, I want to ask you what
28:36
what some of the a couple of toughest things coming out of re
28:40
entry that you think that you experienced.
28:41
But before we do that, you know, a lot of people don't like how
28:46
they show up online. Many individuals think there's
28:49
no hope when it comes to managing your reputation.
28:51
On Google, there's hope. It's called Discoverability
28:54
Company and they can help you whether you're building a
28:56
reputation from scratch, repairing your search results
28:59
after a negative news story, or even if you're just trying to
29:02
position yourself a little better against businesses.
29:04
Your competition Discoverability Company can also help how you
29:10
how you're portrayed on popular AI services like ChatGPT.
29:15
To learn more, visit discoverability.co.
29:19
They're even launching a do it yourself option.
29:21
Of course, for individuals who want to take on their search
29:23
results on their own budget, listeners of Nightmare Success
29:27
can take $100 off the DIYSEO course with coupon code
29:32
Nightmare Success. And I wanted to mention that
29:35
this Nightmare Success podcast is sponsored by the White Collar
29:37
Support Group, the world's first support group devoted to people
29:40
navigating the white collar criminal justice system.
29:43
I'm a member of the White Collar Support Group, and I can tell
29:46
you that this is a bunch of people who help each other
29:48
through the criminal justice journey for free.
29:51
Whether you're just starting your journey or you've made it
29:53
through to the other side, this is a great space for you.
29:55
Join us on Zoom Monday, 7:00 PM Eastern Time.
29:59
For information, go to prisonist.org.
30:01
That's prisonist.org. Start here.
30:03
So, Jeffrey, all the different things of where you're at now,
30:08
what do you think being in that homeless shelter, what do you
30:13
think were the toughest pieces of that puzzle that you ended up
30:16
putting together? Wow.
30:20
Because everybody's got their own way how they get out.
30:23
But there's a common thread of that.
30:25
It's tough. It is really, really tough and
30:28
the way I looked at it was a victory a day.
30:32
So everyday that I came home, I just wanted a small victory.
30:35
Maybe it was getting a pass to go for a job interview.
30:38
Maybe it was finding a good meal.
30:40
Maybe it was I had these challenges for myself.
30:44
So one of them was I have a great fear of heights.
30:46
So I was like, I'm going to conquer it.
30:48
So I started running the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philadelphia,
30:50
which is about over a mile up and down.
30:53
And I'm like, I'm going to do it.
30:55
And I just go out and start running.
30:56
And I ran the Ben Franklin Bridge and like I found these
30:59
challenges that continue to help me.
31:02
Give you these victories. These victories, they were, they
31:05
were little ones, but they were, they were also important for me
31:09
to know that I wasn't going to come back in one day and it was
31:12
going to take time. And I needed to be intentional
31:14
about it. And I, I needed to learn like I
31:17
needed to learn as much on the outside as as I tried to learn
31:20
on the inside from everybody and, and share my story.
31:23
It was also about transparency. It was about being transparent
31:27
about who I am today. And you asked me, we got before
31:31
we got on, you asked me about my law license.
31:34
And I, I never went back for it. I never really it, it was a
31:38
great piece of who I am because that was my past as a trial
31:41
lawyer. And those skill sets definitely
31:43
helped me even today as a public speaker and CEO of a company.
31:48
But, but the truth is it's not who I am.
31:51
And, and I, I want to be mindful of all that and recognize that,
31:55
that, you know, we need to change the system.
31:58
And you do. You change the system by being
32:01
intentional about understanding what the problems are are and
32:05
common sense about how you fix them.
32:08
So true, so true. So as far as where you're at in
32:14
this world, the education piece of it, cuz I was just, it's
32:20
funny how all over the place there's, there's good things
32:25
going on, but a lot of people don't see or like they don't
32:27
know about PD Green. I, I interviewed some people
32:29
that were in Springfield, MO, literally down the street from
32:33
me in Saint Louis, about 3 hours.
32:36
And they've got this whole program put together for it's 7
32:40
brews coffee. And this company needed workers
32:44
and they, they were growing faster than they could get
32:47
workers. And his wife said, well, you've
32:48
always wanted to minister, why don't we look at the justice
32:53
impacted people And they took a a chance and a risk.
32:58
And, and then they created a whole program down there, Jeff,
33:01
where they're going in with funding 180 days in on the
33:05
prisons in, in Missouri, giving PeopleSoft skills.
33:09
But when they come out, a lot of these guys are working for CMC,
33:14
which is A7 brews coffee deal and there's over, there's 200
33:18
employees and 85% of them are just as involved people.
33:24
And I, you know, I always look at that, Jeff, from the
33:27
standpoint that it's got to be people though that.
33:31
And, and I had both the, the, the guy that he hired, which was
33:36
out of prison. And now he's, he's an executive
33:38
vice president in the organization after four years.
33:42
But Lee, the owner took a risk and but he needed it.
33:47
It was something that he needed that opportunity to get workers.
33:52
But it was a win, win on both ends.
33:55
When you are working in in your world, Jeff, and you're in this
33:58
education piece, you know, getting the education is, is one
34:03
thing and then finding the possibilities or the
34:05
opportunities is the other. Do you get involved with helping
34:09
people navigate once they're educated to see where their path
34:13
could go or where they could be placed?
34:16
Yeah, absolutely. Education plays a big piece.
34:18
I spoke a few months ago at the US Chamber of Commerce in
34:21
Washington, and there were a lot of large employers in the room.
34:25
And they're like, they really were interested in in what the
34:28
work that we were doing and, and how we're helping people get
34:31
smarter. And I was I so I kind of lost my
34:34
filter when I went to prison. I kind of just call it the way I
34:37
see it, and there's a lot. Of not a bad thing.
34:41
And I, I said to them, I said, you know what, you're the wrong
34:45
people in this room. And they're all like, I know I
34:47
got a little, I got a lot of people irritated.
34:49
I was like, you're the wrong people in this room right now.
34:52
If you really want to learn how to hire talent, talented people
34:55
that are just just as impacted, then we need to see your HR
34:59
people in this room because they're the ones doing the
35:02
actual hiring and, and they're the ones that help can help
35:05
people navigate those challenges.
35:07
And so it, it landed, it landed pretty well because I think that
35:11
a lot of employers came up and we're asking questions like,
35:14
what do we need to do and how should we do it?
35:16
And what should our HR people be looking at?
35:18
And, and how do we understand the challenges?
35:20
Because working with somebody that's justice impacted, just
35:23
coming home from prison and jail is not just about hiring
35:26
someone. It's about understanding how you
35:29
retain that talent and then give them an opportunity to grow in
35:32
your organization. Because if not, then they're not
35:35
going to, they're not going to succeed.
35:38
Employers universally across the country will acknowledge that
35:42
that they can teach anybody to do just about anything on their
35:46
on their floor and the work that they do and the company they
35:49
have. They can't teach people to be on
35:51
time. They can't teach people how to
35:54
manage conflict. They can't teach people how to
35:57
wear their their pants or their butt cracks not showing.
36:00
Like these are things you refer to them as soft skills.
36:03
I call them essential skills. They're essential for people to
36:06
know, to know and to understand. But it's also about
36:09
understanding the challenges that people come home with.
36:12
There are over 14,000 documented barriers for people and we
36:16
should recognize that. People come home, they may not
36:19
have a driver's license, they may not have a bank account,
36:21
they may not have a place to live, they may not have food.
36:25
We need to for women, They may not have feminine products.
36:28
So we really need to ask those questions.
36:30
There's a great willing by Walt women I live by today, which is
36:34
that we should all be curious and not judgmental.
36:36
And if we were all just curious about how we can help people,
36:40
then the world would be a far better place because we'd really
36:44
find answers that we may not really expect.
36:47
You know, and I think that you going out and talking and, and
36:50
being so blunt and opening up people's eyes.
36:53
I, I, it reminds me back to Jay Jordan, who was in California
36:57
changing a lot of laws. And one of the biggest things
37:00
that he did is he took and made a wall, took it up to Sacramento
37:06
and you were talking about the 14,000 barriers and put all
37:09
those laws on there that for re entry and the legislators came
37:13
out and they couldn't believe that those actually existed.
37:16
And you know, and a lot of it, you know, Jeff, is, is US
37:19
introducing people who are in the positions that they're in to
37:23
the ways that it actually is so that they can do something about
37:27
it. But a lot of times they just
37:28
don't know. Yeah, it's crazy.
37:30
I I fortunately, I've been blessed with having a position
37:33
in the state government in Pennsylvania where I'm I've been
37:36
able to make headway on some challenges, but it always amazed
37:40
me that you could come home from prison or jail where and have
37:44
been a Barber inside a prisoner jail for sometimes 510.
37:47
Years you can't get licensed but.
37:48
You can't get licensed when you come home and that we recently
37:52
over the last few years re redid all our occupational licensing
37:55
laws in Pennsylvania and we're following the lead to other
37:57
states that are doing the same thing.
37:59
It's really a shame that, you know, the people that created
38:03
some of those laws just had no clue what they were actually
38:06
doing and the impact that it was having.
38:09
I meant to ask you, when you were talking about the prison
38:11
experience, how did you end up at the one prison that what was
38:14
it, Canaan? Yeah.
38:16
I don't even I've how how did how did Jeff end up there?
38:21
Yeah, Jeff ended up there because they just killed 2
38:24
guards tragically inside the prison before I got there.
38:28
And prison was on a total lockdown for a long period of
38:31
time. So in every prison, it's the
38:33
inmates that actually function to run the prison.
38:35
So they do all the meals and clean up and teach classes and
38:38
they do a lot of that. And, and that was my that was my
38:41
card. So yeah, going right into the
38:44
fire, and it truly was a fire, but it it was an incredible
38:48
blessing for me because I really saw the humanity of people that
38:51
may not see the outside of those walls.
38:55
Yeah, that would open your eyes. Yeah, we just started a program
38:58
recently at the PD Green program.
39:00
So I, I should mention that is actually so PD Green does a we
39:04
do tutoring inside and outside of prisons and jails across the
39:07
country. I'm super proud this year that
39:09
we launched a program to train longer term term inmates to do
39:14
to do tutoring. Those people that are behind the
39:16
walls for a longer period are now if they have a college
39:19
degree or they have a, a skill set, we're using them to work
39:23
with people inside. And there are credible
39:25
messengers now inside and they're, they're gaining value
39:28
and and they're giving back in the way the best way that they
39:31
can. I, I remember there was
39:33
something you talked about you the OG's, you know, are always
39:36
looked up to and, and respected in the, in the prisons.
39:38
And one of the places you were speaking that you, you followed
39:42
Bill Cosby as a speaker and then and followed him.
39:48
And I, I did how long Bill was in prison?
39:51
But it had to be interesting to follow Bill Cosby as a speaker.
39:55
It was surreal. First of all, I didn't have any
39:57
good jokes. So that was kind of, and there
39:59
were no jokes during the session.
40:01
Actually. Bill was amazing.
40:03
He got up there and in a room where there was a few 100
40:06
people, and that never happens inside of a prison where you
40:10
have so many people packed in a room, but they allowed it to
40:12
happen. And these young people were
40:14
mesmerized and there was silence in the room.
40:17
And they really, he was very, very impactful.
40:20
And I got to talk to him and follow up with him.
40:22
We went to the same high school and we're kind of chatting, but.
40:26
That's small world stuff there, Jeff.
40:28
You guys went to the same high school?
40:30
We did, we did. So it's interesting too.
40:33
I think there's a lot more of this than you could possibly
40:36
imagine when we talk about people impacted.
40:38
A few weeks ago I had the chance to to spend 4 days with Larry
40:42
Miller. Larry Miller is the chairman of
40:45
Jordan Brand Nike and Larry Miller came out with a book
40:49
recently called Jump. I encourage you to read it.
40:51
It's all about the fact that he grew up in West Philadelphia and
40:55
was in a gang and killed someone tragically when he was a
40:57
teenager. Now he spent some time away in
41:00
prison, but he was able to rise to the highest level of Nike and
41:05
the Jordan Brand head of the Portland Trail Blazers at one
41:08
time and to be successful and yet never told anyone until the
41:13
book came out and talking to Michael Jordan and Bobby Knight,
41:16
telling them his story. You know, for, for people that
41:20
are incarcerated and impacted, you should know that there's a
41:23
way out for everyone. You just have to will it.
41:25
You have to want to be determined and and and take it
41:29
one step at a time and be intentional about how you're
41:31
going to get. There, so true.
41:33
That's good advice. You know, Jeff, going through
41:39
all that you've gone through and where you are now, what do you
41:42
think's your biggest take away from all of it?
41:46
Wow, there's so many life lessons.
41:49
I guess the biggest lesson that I've learned is that it is that
41:54
when you go through life, there's a great book by David
41:57
Brooks called The 2nd Mountain and he talks about how you go
42:00
through life and you climb this mountain and you get a job and a
42:03
career in a family. And then something in life
42:05
inevitably sent you back down the mountain.
42:08
And you may not fall all the way to the bottom like I did or
42:10
below into prison. But life isn't about what you do
42:14
on the 1st climb. Life is really about the second
42:17
one. Like all those lessons that
42:19
you've learned and all the things that now you can find
42:22
what you're passionate about and what you believe in and and then
42:25
you take it up with a second mountain.
42:26
And that's what life is about that second climb.
42:29
And I guess for me it was about it was about the lessons of the
42:32
1st mountain and making that second climb and then making it
42:36
with purpose and passion so that you can you feel good about your
42:41
place in this world. I love and that's and you've
42:45
lived that, Jeff, you saying that is your story.
42:48
You know, you've, you've taken what happened to you, you found
42:52
your passion. Well, you just didn't find it.
42:54
You took action with it. You know, I think that's another
42:57
thing for people to to not forget is you can have hope, you
43:01
can have dreams, you can have plans, but you have to take
43:03
action with it. And you just stepped into it.
43:06
And and I think for anybody that's listening out there, the
43:11
only way to get rid of the scary unknowns is a step forward and
43:14
they become known and you can start dealing with it.
43:16
And you know, that's the unknowns are the scary things.
43:20
And once you, even if it's bad news, it becomes known and you
43:24
can deal with it. And I think that's one of the
43:26
things that people, if they'll just allow themselves to step
43:30
forward to what they're trying to get to, even though it's
43:32
unknown, they'll be able to deal with it better when it becomes
43:35
known, 'cause then you just you, you adapt, you figure it out.
43:38
And I see your story is 1 where people can see it.
43:44
I and I know that you wrote a book, A Matter of Time, and
43:50
that's is that a book that's about you and your story?
43:54
So it's actually not out yet, but it's coming out and it's.
43:58
I think it's out in June. Is it out in June?
44:00
It'll be out, Yeah. It'll be out later this year.
44:02
They wanted, they didn't want it to overflow with the election.
44:04
But it's, yeah, it's coming out. And it's called A Matter of
44:07
Time. It's my story.
44:08
But the important part of the book, which I really want to
44:11
emphasize is that at the end of each chapter is a section called
44:15
A Matter of Fact. And, and that those are the
44:18
reality and the numbers behind my journey on how many people
44:21
are impacted and how the criminal legal system impacts
44:25
people as they, they go through and what it looks like.
44:28
So, yeah, I'm proud of it. It's about my journey.
44:31
It's something that I've been working hard on.
44:34
But I also, I'm super, super humble.
44:37
Like I, I just believe that, you know, we all have it in us to
44:41
do, to do remarkable things. You just have to put your hat
44:44
down and take that first step to do it.
44:46
Sometimes that's the hardest thing, but once you do it, just
44:48
keep going with it. And it's.
44:51
Yeah. Yeah, you've gotten a long ways,
44:53
Jeff, taking those steps, you know, and, and that's the thing,
44:57
you're going to take steps and you'll get knocked, you know,
44:59
sideways and have to get yourself up.
45:01
But as long as you still have whatever that is that you're
45:04
trying to step for, that's what gets you out of the ditch.
45:06
And, and I think that's for you being in that homosexual
45:10
shelter, finding your passion, getting your confidence, knowing
45:14
that this something that made you feel good and you were also
45:18
good at it makes you want to do more of it.
45:22
And I think that's that's really what's so inspiring about it and
45:26
looking forward show you're you're getting ready to do
45:30
something right now after we get done at one O 6.5.
45:34
But everybody check out Jeff on air.
45:37
He's he's I've, I've, I've done a deep dive here in the last
45:41
week and he's, he's very good at what he does on that side of the
45:44
world too. And if anybody wants to get to
45:49
PD Green, is is it PD greenprogram.org?
45:53
Yeah, it is. And PD Green was a disc jockey
45:55
in Washington, DC. It's PETEYGREENE.
46:00
It's PD green.org and check me out there.
46:03
Connect with me on LinkedIn. I have 35,000 followers on
46:07
LinkedIn and people that I connect with.
46:09
And I think I often tell people that's the best way to kind of
46:12
follow the things that I'm doing both with the US Department of
46:14
Education and, and some of the work we do with in the Center of
46:18
Education and Workforce Development.
46:20
So. Yeah, you, you have a lot going
46:22
on there and it's, it's a great way to keep up with you.
46:26
Speaking of gratitude, I've all the lights and fancy stuff here
46:30
at the studio. I want to thank Homestead
46:32
Financial for letting me use this place.
46:34
If anybody needs home mortgage needs at Homestead Financial,
46:37
it's Greg Afdia. I've got a book out there,
46:39
Nightmare Success. You want to check that out on
46:41
Amazon, Barnes and Noble, please, if you've got time,
46:46
write a review on Apple. It it helps the show.
46:49
I know it's a little bit of a hassle, but it it does help the
46:51
show. If you want to check me out, go
46:54
to brentcassidy.com. I spell it wrong.
46:57
It's with a Ty, not a DY Jeff, I love, love what you're doing and
47:03
man, I just, I wish we could just clone you and and take you
47:06
everywhere because we need more. Jeff's out there doing what
47:10
you're doing, but man, keep it up.
47:13
I will Brent, thank you so much. Thanks for giving voice.
47:15
It's really these are important discussions to have.
47:18
I think the more we can educate people to the challenges and the
47:22
solutions. And the solutions.
47:23
People as they come home and that's really where the rubber
47:26
meets the road, so I appreciate it.
47:28
Well, as I used to say when I was writing my emails back and
47:30
forth from Leavenworth, stay strong.
47:32
I'll do the same night. More success in and out.