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Stephen Fox: A River To Cross · TRi THIS Music: The Podcast

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Speaker 1: Try This Music, a new music experience.
0:18
Speaker 2: Art, what is the writing process like for you and
0:26
Speaker 2: how did this single come about?
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Speaker 3: Okay, well, my writing process has always been the same
0:32
Speaker 3: since I was like 18. So I have a piano,
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Speaker 3: like a real piano, and I just sit and play
0:41
Speaker 3: at the piano, and I use a pen and paper
0:45
Speaker 3: and write the lyrics down. Usually the lyrics come first, 99%,
0:51
Speaker 3: and then I'll kind of come up with a chord structure.
0:55
Speaker 3: um and then kind of once i kind of feel
0:58
Speaker 3: like the song is kind of complete that's when i'll
1:01
Speaker 3: start thinking well is it a fast song is it
1:04
Speaker 3: a slow song um so there's no hard fast rule
1:08
Speaker 3: um but most of the time that is how i
1:11
Speaker 3: start the song and then it will kind of evolve
1:15
Speaker 3: into whatever it evolves into um there's been the odd
1:19
Speaker 3: time when like just a melody of a piano or
1:25
Speaker 3: an instrument that's coming to my head. And I'm just like, okay,
1:28
Speaker 3: I don't know what the lyrics are going to be,
1:29
Speaker 3: but I just love this idea. But that's rare. And
1:33
Speaker 3: especially recently, it's definitely the lyrics that come first. Because
1:37
Speaker 3: I didn't write songs for, ooh, it must be 15 years.
1:43
Speaker 3: I just... I didn't have it in me. I used
1:48
Speaker 3: to write so much from 18 to about 30. I
1:51
Speaker 3: just wrote and wrote and wrote. It was like my
1:54
Speaker 3: life creatively. But then I just got more into film
1:59
Speaker 3: and kind of video production. And I kind of expressed
2:03
Speaker 3: myself through that more so than songwriting. But then obviously,
2:08
Speaker 3: I did a stint in Bugs Fizz, and I say
2:11
Speaker 3: I did a stint, I'm still in Dolla. I need
2:13
Speaker 3: to remember that. And so that, especially working with Teresa Buzaka,
2:18
Speaker 3: she's like an amazing songwriter. And I think a lot
2:23
Speaker 3: of people got credit for that because she doesn't really
2:26
Speaker 3: bang on about it. And I've learned a lot from
2:28
Speaker 3: Teresa in the sense of song structure and things. So
2:31
Speaker 3: I think you'll find that I do do this. I'll
2:35
Speaker 3: ramble for ages about one tiny little question. but yeah
2:40
Speaker 3: so I think recently I've just been and also I've
2:44
Speaker 3: gone through a lot I won't bore you with all
2:45
Speaker 3: that but I've gone through a lot the last few
2:47
Speaker 3: years that has just kind of given me something to
2:51
Speaker 3: write about I guess just something kind of quite emotional
2:54
Speaker 3: that I wanted to say so so as far as
2:59
Speaker 3: what was the other part of the question that's how
3:02
Speaker 3: I write songs Was it specifically what that song was about?
3:09
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
3:10
Speaker 2: Like the inspirations that went into A River to Cross,
3:13
Speaker 2: because it's quite deep.
3:16
Speaker 4: In its writing style.
3:19
Speaker 2: And it flows, it just flows so naturally, I suppose.
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Speaker 3: Well, A River to Cross is... Basically, I mean, this
3:30
Speaker 3: is getting kind of deep and personal, but I've had
3:33
Speaker 3: this ever since I was a kid, really. I think
3:37
Speaker 3: it's possibly because when I was younger, like you're very young,
3:40
Speaker 3: I could tell. But when I was younger, it wasn't
3:46
Speaker 3: accepted to begin. It wasn't illegal or anything. I'm not
3:50
Speaker 3: that old, but it just wasn't. There was a lot
3:53
Speaker 3: of stigma with it and it wasn't as easy to
3:55
Speaker 3: come out as it is now. just put it like
3:58
Speaker 3: that and so I developed what I've since learned is
4:03
Speaker 3: a condition where you would you know when if you
4:08
Speaker 3: meet somebody like a normal I don't want to say
4:11
Speaker 3: normal that's a terrible thing to say but a straight
4:14
Speaker 3: couple they would they'll meet and they'll just have a
4:19
Speaker 3: very natural accepted relationship and so there's very little Yeah,
4:25
Speaker 3: there'll be drama and things like that, but there's very
4:27
Speaker 3: little kind of wanting and unrequited love, I suppose. I mean,
4:34
Speaker 3: it can happen. I know that. I accept that. But
4:37
Speaker 3: with gay people, especially of my generation, because you never
4:42
Speaker 3: knew if somebody else was gay or you didn't know
4:47
Speaker 3: answers and you didn't dare say to people. So you
4:50
Speaker 3: would have these feelings bubbling inside, but you wouldn't be
4:53
Speaker 3: able to say it. You wouldn't be able to tell
4:56
Speaker 3: them how you felt. And the song really, it's not
5:00
Speaker 3: about one specific person. It's basically what I have dealt
5:06
Speaker 3: with all my life, where I will get quite close
5:08
Speaker 3: with someone And then I usually will mistake those close
5:15
Speaker 3: feelings for something that it isn't, usually with a straight guy.
5:20
Speaker 3: And the condition, actually, if anybody is interested, is called limerence.
5:26
Speaker 3: And if anybody goes through this or experiences this, you
5:29
Speaker 3: should definitely go look at it. Because once I kind
5:32
Speaker 3: of understood that, then... everything changed for me. It's like
5:36
Speaker 3: I can see the signs, I can see the patterns,
5:40
Speaker 3: and I can get out of things far quicker than
5:42
Speaker 3: I used to be able to. And it can drive
5:46
Speaker 3: you insane, like utterly insane. And so A River to
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Speaker 3: Cross is literally that story. I'd say I've had, regarding
5:55
Speaker 3: serious limerence episodes, I've had probably about maybe 10 in
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Speaker 3: my life. And they've all been brutal and horrible and
6:06
Speaker 3: lasted some, some a year, some decades. It's, and it,
6:11
Speaker 3: and it stops you from moving on as well. That's
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Speaker 3: the worst thing. It's like, it's not something that you
6:16
Speaker 3: can kind of just get past. It's, it's like, especially
6:21
Speaker 3: if you're in a situation where you're seeing that person
6:24
Speaker 3: and you can't really not see them for whatever reason,
6:26
Speaker 3: it might be work or, you know, whatever it is.
6:31
Speaker 3: And so it's, it's very hard to get past it
6:35
Speaker 3: so you can't move on and get a normal relationship
6:38
Speaker 3: where it's a loving mutual relationship um and so a
6:42
Speaker 3: river to cross is very much about that story so
6:45
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily just about being gay obviously it can
6:49
Speaker 3: anybody can relate to it who's fallen for somebody that
6:52
Speaker 3: is not you know there's there's nothing harder than loving
6:55
Speaker 3: somebody who doesn't love you back it is just the
6:59
Speaker 3: worst feeling and then you go in this psychological mess
7:03
Speaker 3: where you well I will make them love me and
7:06
Speaker 3: then you just get in a horrible situation because there's
7:10
Speaker 3: nothing more unattractive than somebody who is desperately wanting somebody
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Speaker 3: to love them it's just pathetic but anyway so that's
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Speaker 3: what the song is about I think.
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Speaker 2: That adds like a whole new level of depth to
7:26
Speaker 2: the song, because I feel like it really highlights your strength,
7:31
Speaker 2: not just as an artist, but also as a person.
7:34
Speaker 2: I think in this day and age, we kind of
7:36
Speaker 2: forget what it was like then, as you say, to
7:42
Speaker 2: be gay and to be involved in an industry that
7:49
Speaker 2: kind of once... it to be away and wants it
7:54
Speaker 2: to be hidden. And you have to kind of conceal
7:56
Speaker 2: those feelings. And I feel like there's still a lot
8:00
Speaker 2: of work we need to do in the industries today.
8:03
Speaker 2: I still wouldn't say it's, you know, we're a hundred
8:05
Speaker 2: percent there, but I feel like that really is a
8:09
Speaker 2: testament to your strength as an artist and as a
8:13
Speaker 2: person to be able to create something like this and
8:16
Speaker 2: turn those emotions and those experiences that, you've brought them
8:22
Speaker 2: to the light of day um which is really good
8:26
Speaker 2: and that must have been so healing for.
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Speaker 3: You yeah i mean i've wrote songs before i mean
8:32
Speaker 3: most of my songs are about um love or unrequited
8:36
Speaker 3: love or that this is the only one where it's
8:38
Speaker 3: explicitly about unrequited love um it's uh it was an
8:45
Speaker 3: important song for me to write to kind of, I guess,
8:47
Speaker 3: move on. And the funny thing is, and a few
8:49
Speaker 3: people have said this, that even though it's about something
8:52
Speaker 3: so tragic, it's actually got quite a happy summer vibe
8:57
Speaker 3: to it, which wasn't my intention because I didn't want
8:59
Speaker 3: it to be, because I write really, really depressing, dreary
9:04
Speaker 3: songs generally. But for some reason, I wanted this one
9:08
Speaker 3: to be like, well, yeah, the subject matter is kind
9:11
Speaker 3: of downbeat, but I wanted it to be just more
9:14
Speaker 3: positive and just a better feel for it. And then
9:19
Speaker 3: I did the video, which I would say that is
9:21
Speaker 3: the song. And I never generally, and this isn't because
9:24
Speaker 3: I'm hiding or anything like that, but I generally i
9:28
Speaker 3: never really say he or she or they it's it's
9:33
Speaker 3: very much like ambiguous as to the gender of who
9:36
Speaker 3: i'm writing about and that is i guess i wouldn't
9:40
Speaker 3: not do it but that's how i feel better writing
9:43
Speaker 3: because then it's not so specific like i always find
9:48
Speaker 3: it weird when people write songs with people's names in
9:51
Speaker 3: you know like uh i can't think of one but
9:54
Speaker 3: um Because I'm just like, that's so specific. How can
9:57
Speaker 3: other people, unless they know somebody called that name, get
10:00
Speaker 3: on board with it and so and i'm kind of
10:03
Speaker 3: the same with gender it's like i wanted to appeal
10:05
Speaker 3: to anybody so they can understand it and look at
10:09
Speaker 3: it use it for their healing or whatever you want
10:11
Speaker 3: to say so That's kind of how I did it,
10:15
Speaker 3: but with the video, I really wanted it to be
10:19
Speaker 3: quite explicit in the sense that I am a gay
10:22
Speaker 3: man and it was about a man. So I don't
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Speaker 3: know whether you've seen the video, because the video is
10:27
Speaker 3: basically telling the real story.
10:31
Speaker 4: What was it that first got you started in music, Stephen?
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Speaker 4: Was it the.
10:37
Speaker 2: The writing aspect, was it getting those emotions down on
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Speaker 2: pen and paper? What was it that was inspiring you
10:43
Speaker 2: when you first started?
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Speaker 3: Well, my dad was a performer, quite successful. And so
10:53
Speaker 3: my early childhood was spent going around in a camper
10:57
Speaker 3: van with my dad and my mom and my sister.
11:01
Speaker 3: And we would sometimes sneak in to the venue at
11:05
Speaker 3: the end and watch my dad on stage. And he
11:07
Speaker 3: was just like a rock star to me. And I
11:11
Speaker 3: just was like, I want a piece of that. I
11:13
Speaker 3: loved it. And My sister never really got the kind
11:17
Speaker 3: of performance gene, whereas I just totally got it from
11:20
Speaker 3: my dad. I got the voice, I got a big
11:23
Speaker 3: voice and he had a big voice. And so I
11:26
Speaker 3: totally got it all from my dad. I definitely got
11:29
Speaker 3: parts of it from my mum. It's funny because my mum,
11:33
Speaker 3: my dad was, even though he was a performer and
11:35
Speaker 3: very great on stage, he was quite a pessimist. So
11:40
Speaker 3: nothing could ever be done. Whereas my mum was the optimist,
11:43
Speaker 3: which is why they lasted for all the lives together.
11:46
Speaker 3: Because they kind of, it was like yin and yang,
11:48
Speaker 3: is it? Where two people are just, they even each
11:51
Speaker 3: other out. And I think I'm kind of the embodiment
11:54
Speaker 3: of both. So I can be quite pessimistic in it,
11:58
Speaker 3: like why bother? But then I've got these other boys
12:01
Speaker 3: in my head going, because you want to, because you
12:04
Speaker 3: want to do it and you want to have fun.
12:05
Speaker 3: And so what started me was definitely seeing my dad.
12:10
Speaker 3: My dad wasn't a songwriter. He would just sing the
12:13
Speaker 3: kind of hits of the day kind of thing. And
12:16
Speaker 3: it wasn't until I was, my neighbor was a singer,
12:20
Speaker 3: Susanna D, who was on the previous single, Sympathy for Appleseed.
12:25
Speaker 3: And she had a very, she's had an amazing career.
12:28
Speaker 3: um and we used to sing together and she wrote
12:32
Speaker 3: some songs and i was like oh i want a
12:34
Speaker 3: piece of that that's two so i started to write
12:37
Speaker 3: songs when i was probably about 16 17 and um
12:41
Speaker 3: and i just loved it because it was i suppose
12:45
Speaker 3: a lot of people would write a diary and i
12:47
Speaker 3: kind of see these songs as a diary so it's
12:49
Speaker 3: just where i'm at at the time and sometimes it
12:52
Speaker 3: cringe when i listen back to songs that i wrote
12:54
Speaker 3: when i was i don't know 18 or something but
12:57
Speaker 3: most of the time I get it. It's like, yeah,
13:00
Speaker 3: maybe I kind of worded things wrong, but the sentiment
13:03
Speaker 3: is that it's like reading an old diary of yours
13:06
Speaker 3: and thinking, oh God, that's what I was going through
13:08
Speaker 3: at that point. So, yeah, I'd say it's kind of both.
13:14
Speaker 3: It's quite cathartic to write things down. You feel like
13:17
Speaker 3: you've I can never write when I'm in it. So
13:20
Speaker 3: if I'm in a horrible situation, I can't write. I've
13:23
Speaker 3: got a block. But then when I can tell when
13:26
Speaker 3: I'm getting over something, whether it be a relationship or
13:29
Speaker 3: some catastrophe or whatever, I can tell when I'm getting
13:31
Speaker 3: past it because that's when I can write about it.
13:33
Speaker 3: And then the writing is kind of the final stage
13:35
Speaker 3: of now I'm healed and moved on. So it's a, yeah,
13:40
Speaker 3: it's a, I think that's quite common with any kind
13:43
Speaker 3: of artistic people, you know, so.
13:46
Speaker 2: How do you manage to balance all these different aspects
13:51
Speaker 2: of your kind of creative output? Because you're not just
13:56
Speaker 2: creative in terms of music and songwriting. It's as you
13:59
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, it's like the visual side as well, writing, directing,
14:04
Speaker 2: film work. How do you manage to balance all those
14:08
Speaker 2: different areas and kind of stay sane with it? Because
14:12
Speaker 2: you strike me as a very, very creative and artistic person.
14:16
Speaker 2: And you mentioned briefly there as well about having the
14:20
Speaker 2: kind of block. How do you navigate through these different
14:25
Speaker 2: aspects of your creative output?
14:28
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny when you say I'm remain sane because
14:32
Speaker 3: I'm not. It's like most of the time I'm just like,
14:35
Speaker 3: what is going on in my head? But I've got
14:40
Speaker 3: better at it. I've learned to say no. So I've
14:44
Speaker 3: learned to be like, no I can't do that or
14:46
Speaker 3: I don't have time to do that so whereas I
14:49
Speaker 3: never used to do that I'd always say yes to
14:51
Speaker 3: everything and then just get stressed so I kind of
14:56
Speaker 3: I take on a project whether it be mine or
14:59
Speaker 3: something to do dollar or something external and I will
15:03
Speaker 3: purely concentrate on that I'm rarely doing at the minute
15:08
Speaker 3: I am doing about three things at once but I
15:12
Speaker 3: generally i'll try and focus on one thing put everything
15:15
Speaker 3: into it complete it and then move on to the
15:17
Speaker 3: next thing um whereas i never used to do that
15:20
Speaker 3: i'd have a million things going on and it would
15:24
Speaker 3: drive me nuts so uh so yeah it's it's about
15:27
Speaker 3: planning and and also i think another thing is giving
15:32
Speaker 3: yourself deadlines so it's it's very much like um You say, right,
15:37
Speaker 3: I want it done. I'm giving myself four weeks to
15:40
Speaker 3: do this music video, for instance. And I got very
15:44
Speaker 3: good at just saying, right, that is it. It's done.
15:47
Speaker 3: I have this thing where it's very easy to fall
15:53
Speaker 3: into when you're a creative that nothing's ever good enough.
15:55
Speaker 3: So you'll spend a lot of time on something and
15:58
Speaker 3: then you'll get to the end of it. And it's like, no,
16:01
Speaker 3: it's not good enough. Whereas I'd try not to fall
16:04
Speaker 3: into that trap because it was good enough while I
16:06
Speaker 3: was making it. And then you get this anxiety of, oh,
16:10
Speaker 3: I can't let anybody hear or see this. And... the
16:14
Speaker 3: the important thing is that you just put it out
16:17
Speaker 3: because then you can put it to bed and any
16:19
Speaker 3: new ideas that you've got you can put into your
16:21
Speaker 3: next thing um whereas i do know somebody who you
16:26
Speaker 3: know bless him he's the most creative person i've probably
16:29
Speaker 3: ever met in my life um but he never finishes
16:33
Speaker 3: anything because he by the time he's finished it and
16:35
Speaker 3: he says yeah yeah it's done and then he gets
16:37
Speaker 3: a new idea for a lyric or something like that
16:41
Speaker 3: and so then he'll he won't put it out he'll
16:43
Speaker 3: then want to put that into that song and I've
16:46
Speaker 3: said numerous times just finish it put it out put
16:49
Speaker 3: it to bed start a new song you know but
16:53
Speaker 3: yeah it's a it's a hard lesson to learn and
16:56
Speaker 3: I'm just getting there so it's funny because I've had
16:59
Speaker 3: three singles out now since December and And the first one,
17:05
Speaker 3: Oceans on the Moon, I listen to it now and
17:07
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh God, I would have done that so differently.
17:09
Speaker 3: Just in this short space of time. But I have
17:12
Speaker 3: no regrets. There's no point in having regrets. It's like,
17:15
Speaker 3: you know, I'll put another version out in a few years,
17:18
Speaker 3: you know, maybe a piano version or something like that.
17:21
Speaker 3: I don't know. But you've got to be able to
17:24
Speaker 3: say when something is finished and that's how you navigate
17:28
Speaker 3: through it. all the things that, you know, living a hectic,
17:31
Speaker 3: busy life. You've got to be able to put.
17:33
Speaker 4: An end to it.
17:36
Speaker 3: Yeah.
17:36
Speaker 2: I was literally just about to ask as well, are
17:38
Speaker 2: you proud of the past three singles that have gone? Because,
17:41
Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned it's from December to now. It's
17:44
Speaker 2: such a very short period of time. But I think
17:47
Speaker 2: through these singles, you've managed to showcase such a versatility.
17:52
Speaker 2: Oceans on the Moon, it's really atmospheric and really.
18:00
Speaker 4: well, I don't know how to describe it. I lack
18:01
Speaker 4: the vocabulary.
18:02
Speaker 2: I lack the musicality, but it sits on its own
18:06
Speaker 2: in comparison to something like A River To Cross. They
18:10
Speaker 2: feel very different to me, but you still remain, you
18:14
Speaker 2: can still hear you in it. Like you can still
18:16
Speaker 2: hear your style and your creativity and your artistry. It
18:22
Speaker 2: still feels very you, but it also does feel so
18:26
Speaker 2: different to um the other three uh well the other
18:30
Speaker 2: two so it's like um is that a conscious effort
18:37
Speaker 2: to be able to showcase um different sides of what
18:41
Speaker 2: you can do uh musically.
18:44
Speaker 3: Um i wouldn't say it's conscious there is an element
18:47
Speaker 3: of that that i don't want everything to sound certain
18:49
Speaker 3: because I know myself and I'm a balladeer. I love ballads.
18:55
Speaker 3: I love things that evoke an emotion and make me cry.
18:58
Speaker 3: And that is just my bag. It's what I love.
19:02
Speaker 3: That and Motown. I love Motown. And so I guess
19:09
Speaker 3: if I was just purely doing it for myself, and
19:13
Speaker 3: didn't really care, which I always say, oh, I don't
19:15
Speaker 3: care what people think, but of course you do, you know,
19:18
Speaker 3: you want people to like what you put a lot
19:20
Speaker 3: of work into. So I suppose the only conscious decision
19:25
Speaker 3: that I made was to not write an album full
19:27
Speaker 3: of balance. So I was always kind of, I'm always thinking,
19:34
Speaker 3: how's this song tempo wise, things like that, instrumentation, how's
19:38
Speaker 3: it going to fit with the other things without all
19:41
Speaker 3: sounding the same. I think with the three that have
19:45
Speaker 3: come out, it's just pure accident really that they all
19:49
Speaker 3: sound very different i mean the second one sympathy for
19:52
Speaker 3: apples that was produced by jake who um i met
19:56
Speaker 3: on the dollar top and uh he he's an amazing
20:00
Speaker 3: musician and producer and so he spent quite a long
20:03
Speaker 3: time nearly a year just kind of in and out
20:05
Speaker 3: producing that And I love what he's done. It was
20:10
Speaker 3: a song that I wrote in the late 90s. And
20:13
Speaker 3: he's kind of given it a new kind of energy.
20:17
Speaker 3: And so that was originally going to be the first single.
20:20
Speaker 3: But then I decided, since this is kind of my
20:24
Speaker 3: solo project, to have my first single with a female
20:29
Speaker 3: vocalist on, Susannah Dee, kind of didn't set the right
20:34
Speaker 3: tone because, obviously, most people who hear me and listen
20:39
Speaker 3: to me they even know me from being working with
20:42
Speaker 3: Brooks Fizz or working with Dolla and so it's almost
20:48
Speaker 3: me saying oh I can't possibly survive without a female
20:50
Speaker 3: vocalist so I thought I really need to put something
20:53
Speaker 3: out first before I put that out so that's why
20:57
Speaker 3: Oceans on the Moon kind of came out before even
20:59
Speaker 3: though it was recorded after And so, and I've forgotten
21:06
Speaker 3: your question there. Oh yeah, about being the same. So
21:09
Speaker 3: the album, weirdly, these three songs that have come out,
21:12
Speaker 3: it's funny because I have to be careful to remember
21:16
Speaker 3: that people who hear them are not aware of what's
21:19
Speaker 3: going on in my head, my plans or anything. They're
21:21
Speaker 3: just hearing songs and that's a song and that's how
21:24
Speaker 3: it is. Whereas in my head, I've got Scram production
21:28
Speaker 3: where the video is all interlinked and it's telling a story,
21:31
Speaker 3: which is why it's these, first four songs i've got
21:34
Speaker 3: another one coming out they're probably in the middle of
21:37
Speaker 3: may um and that will complete that you know i
21:43
Speaker 3: was talking about completion well that will complete that part
21:48
Speaker 3: of this little journey because it's it's almost like a
21:51
Speaker 3: mini film it's basically three videos that while seeing completely
21:57
Speaker 3: separate and independent of each other they will, when the
22:01
Speaker 3: last one comes out, which is the prequel, which will
22:04
Speaker 3: tell the story of why I ended up on the
22:07
Speaker 3: moon in an ocean and why I ended up in
22:11
Speaker 3: a commune on the river to cross Vidya and why
22:14
Speaker 3: I ended up in the big dumb city in the
22:16
Speaker 3: sympathy for Appleseed. It all ties up and everybody will
22:20
Speaker 3: understand what each one's about then. And I'm actually going
22:24
Speaker 3: to create a mini film, a short film, where it's
22:27
Speaker 3: going to be all the videos together just in one video.
22:31
Speaker 3: So it'll be like maybe half an hour long and
22:33
Speaker 3: there'll be extra little bits in between, like more of
22:35
Speaker 3: a story. And I've loved doing that. I've loved making
22:39
Speaker 3: that because it kind of incorporates my music and my
22:42
Speaker 3: kind of creative filmmaking side. And with the advent, I
22:47
Speaker 3: know AI is a very controversial subject, but I do
22:52
Speaker 3: stand by for filmmaking because I come from 20 years
22:59
Speaker 3: of making films and videos and things like that. I've
23:04
Speaker 3: learned my craft and I know how much it costs
23:08
Speaker 3: to make these things. And to be able to utilize
23:13
Speaker 3: my full creativity sat in the studio like and it's
23:18
Speaker 3: not easy that but i think that's the thing i
23:20
Speaker 3: think people think that you just press a button and
23:23
Speaker 3: you get a music video it's so not like that
23:25
Speaker 3: and i suggest anybody goes and has a real look
23:28
Speaker 3: before they start saying oh that's easy it's not it's
23:31
Speaker 3: just as hard as filming um because you you've got
23:35
Speaker 3: to and it's costly it's not cheap um and it's
23:39
Speaker 3: just another way of telling a story and ai is
23:41
Speaker 3: getting a lot better at kind of be more realistic
23:45
Speaker 3: but to be honest it doesn't bother me because my
23:47
Speaker 3: videos are quite kind of cartoonish almost and and i
23:52
Speaker 3: like that aesthetic so it was on purpose um and
23:57
Speaker 3: it's funny because the last one that i'm doing now
23:59
Speaker 3: i'm in the middle of because ai has moved on
24:02
Speaker 3: so much it's making it very real and hard to
24:05
Speaker 3: tell that it's not real and i'm like well i
24:07
Speaker 3: love that but It needs to look like the other videos.
24:11
Speaker 3: So I'm kind of struggling now to turn it down
24:14
Speaker 3: so that it doesn't look as real. But yeah, I've
24:20
Speaker 3: forgotten your question again.
24:22
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's a brilliant answer. Honestly, it was a
24:26
Speaker 2: brilliant answer. I wanted to ask you as well, because
24:31
Speaker 2: this is such a really strong start to a body
24:37
Speaker 2: of work for you. um and I think it's such
24:41
Speaker 2: an exciting time but why now why why now to
24:46
Speaker 2: strike out on your own is it you're just in
24:48
Speaker 2: a place in your life where you've reached that point
24:53
Speaker 2: where it's like I'm ready for this I'm ready to
24:56
Speaker 2: to release um these kind of these songs um and
25:01
Speaker 2: these emotions and these kind of um styles um are
25:06
Speaker 2: we at that point now or is Or was something
25:09
Speaker 2: stopping you before?
25:14
Speaker 3: It's a combination of a few things, but I dipped
25:18
Speaker 3: out of music because I wasn't successful, but I had a...
25:26
Speaker 3: quite a good run in the 90s with a band
25:30
Speaker 3: and we were managed by David Arden who's Sharon Osbourne's
25:33
Speaker 3: brother and so we spent a year under his kind
25:37
Speaker 3: of management I guess and a lot was promised but
25:42
Speaker 3: nothing really came of it and I had just got
25:45
Speaker 3: to the point where I was exhausted with it and
25:49
Speaker 3: I knew I was getting older and I just needed
25:51
Speaker 3: to kind of get a proper job, get a house,
25:54
Speaker 3: because I was just doing part-time jobs in bars and,
25:58
Speaker 3: you know, trying to, because I wanted to put 100%
25:59
Speaker 3: into music, because it seemed like we were so close
26:03
Speaker 3: to breaking, and I just wanted to put 100% into it,
26:08
Speaker 3: and I did. I have no regrets about that, but
26:10
Speaker 3: there comes a point where you've got to I guess
26:13
Speaker 3: I don't want to sound pessimistic, but give up the
26:15
Speaker 3: dream and say, I've got to move on now. And
26:19
Speaker 3: so I got a proper job and I bought a
26:22
Speaker 3: house and did all like the normal things that people
26:26
Speaker 3: expect you to do at a certain age. And I
26:31
Speaker 3: have no regrets because I love my house and I
26:34
Speaker 3: love the security it brings me. when you're creative you
26:39
Speaker 3: can't just bury it like that people try but it's
26:42
Speaker 3: not healthy um and so i started to that's when
26:46
Speaker 3: i got into filmmaking because of all the last not
26:49
Speaker 3: age like music is very age-oriented or it certainly was
26:53
Speaker 3: back then um and so i was just thinking i'm
26:57
Speaker 3: gonna do something that doesn't matter my age and so
27:01
Speaker 3: that's where i put everything into filmmaking and that's how
27:03
Speaker 3: i met book spheres that's a story that's well documented
27:06
Speaker 3: so what boy but um It basically, that being a
27:15
Speaker 3: creative in film, that was really good. But then the
27:20
Speaker 3: songs and the voice and wanting to sing again, just
27:24
Speaker 3: kept creeping in. And then I ended up doing the
27:26
Speaker 3: singing book spin. That led to me being a full-time singer.
27:31
Speaker 3: And then I ended up doing Dolla. And all the time,
27:36
Speaker 3: my dad would be, he'd watch me kind of struggling
27:39
Speaker 3: with the books, his work and, um, just, just not
27:44
Speaker 3: anything to do with books. There's just, it's, I was
27:48
Speaker 3: constantly being told you have to do this. You need
27:52
Speaker 3: to sing like this. Um, and, and to a degree
27:55
Speaker 3: similar with dollar, it's like suddenly I'm now replacing David
27:59
Speaker 3: Van Damme. And, and so there's an expectation from fans
28:03
Speaker 3: that I sing in a certain way. And my dad
28:06
Speaker 3: used to say, you know, you're never letting people hear you.
28:09
Speaker 3: You know, it's never your vision. You've written all these
28:13
Speaker 3: hundreds of amazing songs and nobody's ever heard them, you know,
28:16
Speaker 3: other than people who bought CDs in the 90s because
28:19
Speaker 3: they were never online, they were never on Spotify or
28:22
Speaker 3: anything like that. And he was like, you know, why
28:25
Speaker 3: can you not do book? Why can you not do dollar,
28:29
Speaker 3: you know, but then put your own stuff out? And
28:31
Speaker 3: it was always the intention, but I was just so busy,
28:35
Speaker 3: you know, just crazy busy. And then I'd started last
28:40
Speaker 3: year and then I was like, yeah, I'm going to
28:43
Speaker 3: do it. And then my dad got quite ill and
28:45
Speaker 3: then he died last year. And I was just like,
28:50
Speaker 3: I'm going to do it because life is short and
28:55
Speaker 3: you need to, I do have kind of a, I
28:59
Speaker 3: think everybody does, you know, an aware that I have
29:01
Speaker 3: kind of a bucket list. I have like, things that
29:04
Speaker 3: I want to achieve, and it's not mountain climbing or
29:07
Speaker 3: jumping off a building with a rope around my head.
29:10
Speaker 3: That'd be weird. You know, like bungee jumping or whatever.
29:14
Speaker 3: None of those things. They're terrifying. Swimming with sharks. These
29:18
Speaker 3: people are crazy. But creatively, I have a million things
29:22
Speaker 3: that I want to do. One of them is releasing
29:26
Speaker 3: a solo album so that I go to cold shops
29:30
Speaker 3: so I can say, this is me, and If people
29:34
Speaker 3: like it, that's fantastic. But at least if they don't
29:38
Speaker 3: like it, then it's on me. And I'm not sat
29:43
Speaker 3: there in my head going, well, if we'd have recorded
29:45
Speaker 3: it how I said, or we'd have done it like
29:47
Speaker 3: how I said, then it would be liked more or
29:50
Speaker 3: more successful. And it's not even about how many copies
29:55
Speaker 3: of the album I sell or anything like that. It's
29:58
Speaker 3: literally just so that I know that when I'm old
30:01
Speaker 3: and sat in my rocking chair, I accomplished what I
30:04
Speaker 3: needed to accomplish. And really the only thing that I've
30:08
Speaker 3: done a lot and the only thing that I really
30:10
Speaker 3: want to do is release an album so that I
30:13
Speaker 3: can say, there you go, world. You know, that's what
30:17
Speaker 3: I was about. That's kind of my diary, I guess,
30:21
Speaker 3: in audio form. And also if the songs help people,
30:26
Speaker 3: because that's the other thing. It's either... I've gone through
30:29
Speaker 3: life and had, you know, I have not had a
30:32
Speaker 3: bad life, but we all have ups and downs and
30:35
Speaker 3: the things that get me through the downs is always music.
30:39
Speaker 3: It's always other people's lyrics that kind of like, you
30:41
Speaker 3: know what? Yeah, that's right. Let's, let's crack on. Let's,
30:44
Speaker 3: let's sort this out. And, and so I would like
30:47
Speaker 3: to think that maybe my lyrics will do that for
30:50
Speaker 3: somebody else.
30:51
Speaker 4: Yeah. A hundred percent.
30:53
Speaker 2: Um, I think he'd be so proud of you and
30:56
Speaker 2: so proud of, um, this journey that you've started since
31:03
Speaker 2: the end of last year. I'm so glad that you
31:05
Speaker 2: have done it and are able to share your creativity
31:10
Speaker 2: through this medium, through releasing the singles, through building the album.
31:20
Speaker 2: I think it's really a reflection of such an amazing
31:24
Speaker 2: journey full of so many different experiences. that you're able
31:29
Speaker 2: to put into your work.
31:30
Speaker 4: And I'm really glad that now you have a chance.
31:32
Speaker 2: To bring those dreams and bring those visions that you've
31:37
Speaker 2: had into a reality. And I think the last thing
31:42
Speaker 2: you said as well about helping people and giving it
31:45
Speaker 2: to the people, I think they'll really appreciate it.
31:48
Speaker 4: And I think they'll get a lot from it.
31:49
Speaker 2: Because I think you're such an interesting person who has
31:55
Speaker 2: had so much experience in so many different things happen
32:01
Speaker 2: I think that makes you really unique and I think
32:03
Speaker 2: you can really feel it in the music and I
32:05
Speaker 2: mean that genuinely I think it really does come across
32:09
Speaker 2: our first conversation about A River To Cross I think
32:12
Speaker 2: it's opened up a whole new world for me especially
32:15
Speaker 2: listening to that track so I'm really really glad Stephen
32:18
Speaker 2: that we've had this conversation because I think it's so
32:22
Speaker 2: worthy and I think it's just so it's just so
32:25
Speaker 2: worth getting out there and so worth doing So I'm really, really,
32:29
Speaker 2: really glad for you that you have. And I think
32:32
Speaker 2: that you'll be surprised by how many people are going
32:36
Speaker 2: to be enjoying it and are going to want to
32:38
Speaker 2: see the album.
32:40
Speaker 4: I'm going to hit you with my final question, Stephen.
32:42
Speaker 4: And it.
32:45
Speaker 2: Is the most reflective and it's probably the most deep,
32:48
Speaker 2: but it's quite simple. And it's what would you say
32:52
Speaker 2: is your proudest moment so far?
32:58
Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Gosh. Proudest is a tricky one. I think
33:18
Speaker 3: in actual fact, my proudest moment has got nothing to
33:20
Speaker 3: do with music, but there's a difference. There's a proud
33:24
Speaker 3: moment and then there's one that a moment that will
33:27
Speaker 3: stay with me forever. So I'm going to tell you
33:30
Speaker 3: the one that will stay with me forever, but I
33:32
Speaker 3: can't really class it as proud, although I guess I
33:35
Speaker 3: am proud. Basically, just before I did the stint in Bookspace,
33:40
Speaker 3: obviously I'd been working with them for a number of years,
33:44
Speaker 3: and Cheryl Baker called me up and she said, we're
33:49
Speaker 3: doing our, I forget now, I think it was the
33:52
Speaker 3: 25th anniversary, maybe. at the London Palladium. Now, the London
33:57
Speaker 3: Palladium context is, for me, the most iconic theatre venue
34:05
Speaker 3: in the world, not just in the UK, in the world.
34:09
Speaker 3: I've said for years, if I could play anywhere, if
34:12
Speaker 3: I had, like, one dream, it would be to play
34:14
Speaker 3: at the London Palladium. And so Cheryl asked me, would
34:17
Speaker 3: my band open the show at the London Palladium? And
34:20
Speaker 3: I was like, hell yeah. It's like, you don't need
34:23
Speaker 3: to ask me twice. So you see why I can't
34:27
Speaker 3: really say it's a proud one. I was proud to
34:31
Speaker 3: do a good job and I sang Somewhere Over the Rainbow.
34:35
Speaker 3: That was the last song because I love Judy Garland.
34:41
Speaker 3: I'm gay. It's a prerequisite. love the Wizard of Oz,
34:45
Speaker 3: love Judy Garland and the fact that she stood on
34:48
Speaker 3: that stage and sang that song and so I remember
34:51
Speaker 3: stood there and I just I was sending shivers down
34:56
Speaker 3: my own spine it was so weird because it was
34:58
Speaker 3: like an out-of-body experience so I would say that from
35:03
Speaker 3: a career musical point of view is still I've had many,
35:07
Speaker 3: many great ones. Great ones with Dollar playing the festivals
35:10
Speaker 3: and stuff. But that one stands out, specifically singing somewhere
35:14
Speaker 3: over the rainbow, as being kind of... I guess I
35:18
Speaker 3: was proud of myself for kind of standing there and
35:21
Speaker 3: having the guts to do it. And so kind of
35:25
Speaker 3: a weird crowd moment. But then the thing that I'm
35:28
Speaker 3: proudest of, which is a very weird one, and not
35:31
Speaker 3: to make it dark, but it was when my dad
35:34
Speaker 3: was dying, because... I don't deal with that intensity and
35:41
Speaker 3: the kind of loss. Like when my dog died, my
35:44
Speaker 3: dad came to the vets with me and he said, yeah,
35:46
Speaker 3: she's going to have to be put down. And I said, well,
35:49
Speaker 3: I can't have her on her own when they inject her,
35:51
Speaker 3: but I can't do it. I can't sit there with her.
35:55
Speaker 3: And so my dad had to sit there with her
35:58
Speaker 3: while she was put down. And so I've never dealt
36:03
Speaker 3: with that kind of thing very well. But then with
36:06
Speaker 3: my dad, when my dad died, he died at home
36:08
Speaker 3: and the whole family was there. And he was ill,
36:12
Speaker 3: severely ill, in a hospital bed in the living room
36:16
Speaker 3: for a couple of weeks. And me and my sister
36:19
Speaker 3: just took time off work and we were there with
36:22
Speaker 3: my mum and we never really left his side. And
36:28
Speaker 3: then when he did pass, we were literally all holding
36:31
Speaker 3: his hand. And I didn't think I would be able
36:33
Speaker 3: to do that. and and i did and i was
36:38
Speaker 3: kind of proud of myself for giving my dad that
36:43
Speaker 3: you know um because he deserved it because he was
36:46
Speaker 3: a great guy so so anybody who thinks they can't
36:49
Speaker 3: deal with that you can you know it's amazing how
36:53
Speaker 3: it how the courage comes when you need it so
36:59
Speaker 3: definitely um I told you it was a downer one.
37:03
Speaker 3: That was a silly last question.
37:06
Speaker 2: I think it really is. I sound like a broken record,
37:13
Speaker 2: but I think it's a testament to your strength. I
37:16
Speaker 2: hope that when you read this back or watch this
37:18
Speaker 2: back or listen and you listen to yourself answer these questions,
37:23
Speaker 2: I hope that you are able to see your own
37:26
Speaker 2: strength because I am looking at a strong, a very
37:29
Speaker 2: strong person.
37:31
Speaker 4: In front of me.
37:32
Speaker 2: And I really hope that you'll carry that forward in
37:36
Speaker 2: all the work that you do and all the personal
37:38
Speaker 2: stuff that you do. I really hope that that's something
37:40
Speaker 2: that you're going to hold dear and near because it
37:44
Speaker 2: really is. I think that's what you are. I think
37:46
Speaker 2: you are very strong. I think this has been such
37:52
Speaker 2: a great interview and I'm so happy to have met you, Stephen,
37:56
Speaker 2: because it's just.
38:00
Speaker 4: I don't know.
38:01
Speaker 2: It's, I really like the words. This is where I am.
38:04
Speaker 2: This is where I fall down because I really like
38:06
Speaker 2: to describe it, but it really has been such a
38:09
Speaker 2: wonderful conversation with you. And I think our audience will
38:15
Speaker 2: take a lot away from it. When listening to your music,
38:19
Speaker 2: I think they'll see a whole new side and I'm
38:23
Speaker 2: really happy we were able to do this. It's really
38:26
Speaker 2: nice to sit down with somebody who's had so many
38:28
Speaker 2: experiences and And is such a creative person. And to
38:32
Speaker 2: be able to. Really get to understand you. Not just
38:36
Speaker 2: as an artist. But also as a person. And just
38:40
Speaker 2: to thank you as well. For being so open and honest.
38:45
Speaker 2: And for being so meaningful. And genuine. Because it really
38:50
Speaker 2: makes all the difference. And I'm sure there's people out there.
38:55
Speaker 2: That are looking for that strength. And looking for. something
38:58
Speaker 2: to relate to. And I really think that by doing
39:01
Speaker 2: this interview and, and giving the answers that you gave today,
39:04
Speaker 2: I think, um, they'll really be able to get that
39:07
Speaker 2: from this interview.
39:08
Speaker 4: Um, but yeah, that's everything for me.
39:11
Speaker 2: Is there anything, um, future wise that you'd like to
39:15
Speaker 2: throw at Stephen before, before we go? Is there anything
39:18
Speaker 2: you'd like to throw out there that might be coming?
39:21
Speaker 3: Just as a sideliner. So I'm hoping that my album
39:25
Speaker 3: is out at the end of the year, hopefully. um
39:29
Speaker 3: and then the my working dollar we're in the crosses
39:34
Speaker 3: are doing that album so hopefully i should have two
39:37
Speaker 3: albums out at the end of the year which is
39:40
Speaker 3: It'll be a long shot and maybe it will, maybe
39:43
Speaker 3: it won't. And then also I'll just be hopefully doing
39:46
Speaker 3: some live dates. I'm definitely doing some live dates with
39:48
Speaker 3: Dollar at the end of the year. We've got some
39:51
Speaker 3: coming up in a month as well. But I really
39:56
Speaker 3: want to do kind of a solo show, just like
40:00
Speaker 3: maybe a few gigs around the country. So hopefully people
40:02
Speaker 3: will come to that as well. But follow me on
40:04
Speaker 3: social media, all that jazz. And I'm terrible at it.
40:08
Speaker 3: I never post anything. What can you say? I never
40:12
Speaker 3: think anybody really wants to know what I'm doing in
40:14
Speaker 3: my life. But then I realised that is not particularly
40:22
Speaker 3: a good way to work when you're trying to push
40:24
Speaker 3: your music out there. So I'm trying to get that right.