Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Summer Series Gems (January-Febuary) (2023)

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What I've Learnt - Summer Series Gems (January-Febuary) (2023) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Luke, one of the producers of the show.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: As a producer, I love my work, and helping Deborah and our team share some amazing and wonderful stories.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: From food to fashion and art to music, we've got you covered.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we are celebrating some of the best moments from the start of the year.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: Australian-born pianist Rita Reichman began her performance career as a three-year-old child prodigy.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, she was playing Beethoven at three.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: And then at age nine was invited to study at the Interlochen Centre for the Arts in Michigan.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: Two years later, she was accepted to study at the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia as one of their youngest students, obtaining a bachelor's degree at 17.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: She continues her international performance career as a soloist, recording artist, chamber musician, and is in much demand to give masterclasses.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we're so thrilled to have Rita join us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: Very excited.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_04: And I've actually known Rita for quite a while, and I've always been in awe of her energy, her spirit, and her sense of creativity.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: So maybe we can talk about, let's let's talk about where it all started for you, Rita.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: How did you first embark on this?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you were very young when you started playing piano, extraordinarily young.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: So how did that come to be?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: You're a prodigy, clearly.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was a prodigy.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've sort of grown out of being a prodigy, thank God.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was normal.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in a family which was all musical.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: My brother was a violinist and uh became violinist and conductor, my sister was a pianist and cellist, and everyone in the household played an instrument, and I just thought that's what happens in every family.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just learned by ear what my sister was playing initially, and and I thought that's what you do.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And very early on, uh my mother was told by my sister's teachers and others that I needed to have lessons.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time I was three, I was having formal lessons.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's extraordinary.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, three.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like you can barely get your three fingers on the piano.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I was lucky I had big hands.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time I was five, I reached an octave.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, I was playing everything.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's incredible.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was playing like Bedouin, a movement of a Bedouin sonata by by ear by at the age of three.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And uh music was just normal.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: It felt normal to me.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't anything unusual.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_04: So, from your perspective, do you think uh, you know, we talk about the word prodigy and I saw you flinch somewhat.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think what goes with that?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: The the pressure, and do you believe it it is it is a biological predisposition to be, I mean, to play you know, Beethoven at five would have to have a biological component, surely?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_04: What's your perspective on that?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's a combination of nature and nurture.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you do have some genetic predisposition to uh an affinity for music and uh uh having it in available in the house certainly makes it easier.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think having a parent uh that uh uh gives you the opportunity, first of all, and having it available to you helps.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think growing up in a musical home where it's normal for me, that was that was a a plus.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my siblings are were all quite a bit older than me, eight and twelve years older.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to mimic them.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they were performing.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: My, you know, they used to play on the what was it, Happy Hammond show and all these talent shows on on TV when I was very, very little.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh that's what I saw.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to be part of that, or they used to do competitions, Dandenong Festival and all these competitions, and I wanted to be a part of that.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um well it it I did flinch because being a child prodigy, yes, it has burdens.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And in our household, um, it had extra burdens because my mother was a Holocaust survivor.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: She had a sister who was a child prodigy in Europe who was performing quite uh a lot in Europe before the war and was killed by the Nazis.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And my mother was very uh she came out of this out of it surviving with this will to reproduce or or re sort of uh resurrect what was destroyed during the war.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that was not just having uh survival as of a family, uh survival of a Jewish family, but also survival of a of the music and the culture that was destroyed.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that sort of responsibility we saw it as as responsibility, but also it is it was a burden and it was placed upon us.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: We were taught we had to sort of um we had the opportunity to to recreate what was lost.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, that was very much part of how I was raised.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very lucky that we were capable and that very lucky that I enjoyed it and I loved it, and I wouldn't change any of it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: That was just luck, though.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think um uh I really love music, and I every time I hear the sound of a piano, I get excited still.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I love playing more than anything, and and so I'm very lucky with that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, that that was part of how I was raised.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's interesting because you, you know, there you were in the shadow of history, in a sense, carrying your mother's burden and carrying her, in a sense, her trauma.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so it was, and obviously all of you kids, but you know, because you expressed it so specifically, that that there's sort of a two-pronged element to your burden.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_04: One is the burden of history, as you outlined, but also the burden of expectation with being a prodigy and somebody and expectation.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_04: So, so on the first, as you just mentioned, um, did you ever reconcile that with her?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_04: And also did it make it hard to push back on it because the power of that is just, you know, you're carrying something so enormous around.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: Monumental.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_04: How can you ever, ever say, actually, no, that doesn't work for me?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_04: Because or or any any objection whatsoever?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: It never, it never happened.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: I never pushed back on it, partly because I had success very young, and it was very easy to continue.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's very easy to to continue with something and enjoy something that you're good at, and something where you get praised, uh, praised for, and that you continue.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the trajectories, you know, quite forward and easy.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's very hard to push back.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I never wanted to push back, so I never I never had that issue.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: The burden of it and the responsibility was uh in the household, and it was there between me and my mother and my siblings, that was there, and uh we felt it.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, I think, felt by any child of survivors um that there was a responsibility to we we became not just the children of survivors, but the parent of these survivors, the replacement family of these survivors, and that was very much part of how I was raised.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And funnily enough, a lot of my teachers, certainly in America, um, almost all my teachers uh at the institutions I went were Jewish.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: They were in Europe or they were expelled from Europe and uh sent here to Australia.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yashio Spibukovsky, the teacher I had here, he was here because he was a Jew and had to leave uh Europe and the and the Nazis, and all of my teachers in Europe had the same experience.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they understood.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um they I never had to explain that part of who I was.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to all of that, is this uh uh this situation of being a child prodigy is not usually a happy one because child prodigies rarely survive, they usually die out by the time they're late teens, they usually don't go on to having adult careers, they usually are very crazy um mixed-up people and um have a lot of psychological damage.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And my mother was extremely clever and very uh careful to raise me as first a human being and um second a talent.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: That was not the primary focus.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: Very important distinction.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: She was very, very careful.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: She looked at many other cases, like Yehudi Menuin, who was this prodigy who wasn't even allowed to cross the road alone at 17.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: He was so so molybdled and overnurtured that he had no normal life.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there were other cases where of severe child abuse of uh of children who were tied to the piano bench.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're horror stories, you know.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I didn't have that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: I had a completely normal childhood, apart from the fact that I had piano lessons every day and had to practice.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if I wanted to give concerts, which I enjoyed, I had to play.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that was it.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: That was the only part that was abnormal.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then when we got this opportunity to go to America, um that changed things a little bit because then I was in an institution where there were other people who were uh very, very talented as well, and they were much older than I was.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was all I was uh in a sort of tertiary institution.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: There were people 18 and older, and I was uh I was accepted when I was 10 to the to the second institution in America, and musically I was I felt like the dumb kid in the school.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: So I wasn't because you were surrounded by it certainly, certainly put you in place because you were like, I mean the so just to talk to that for our listeners, can you give us some indication of I mean to be 10 and accepted?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Could you talk about the institution, what it was, and how it came to be?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: Taking care of our brain as we age is a critical choice.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: Save Your Brain is a new book by renowned Doctor, Dr.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_04: Ginny Mansberg.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: In it, she provides simple steps and proven strategies to reduce your risk of cognitive decline, all before it's too late, we hope.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: The evidence is clear, almost half of all cases of dementia and cognitive decline are preventable.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: But sadly, none are treatable.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_04: So, what are the lifestyle changes that really make a difference to our brain health?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: What do the experts do to protect themselves from their own cognitive decline?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: And what can we do right now to preserve our quality of life as we age?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: So, Ginny, so good to see you again.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you and I have had a few chats before.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it did you just say earlier before we started recording 2017?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, that's how I can't I know pre-17.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: How has that happened?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: What happened to the that's six years ago?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's just wild.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I talk to you all the time, but it turns out so Ginny, yes, I think we actually had a podcast about 2018 as well.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I'm always interested in what you're doing because you're always doing great things.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and as a doctor who is in the media and very savvy in terms of communicating what are often complex issues in a very accessible, bite-sized way.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: I love having you as our regular and more regular uh Dr.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: Ginny Mansberg.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: So come on and tell me all about what you've been doing.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: This is particularly interesting because Ginny's brought out this new book um called Save Your Brain.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_04: Is that right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_04: Have I got that right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, save your brain.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_04: I just love the title.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_04: Save your brain.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_04: What a great title.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: So talk to me a little bit about where this came from.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: Why did you decide to write this book?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a lot of us at our age are starting to get parents who are maybe not as right on the, you know, the button as we used to have it.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we're in that real sandwich generation of trying to look after our parents, look after the elderly.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, I feel like in Australia we had like the aged care royal commission, and it was just looking like life in a nursing home is actually a nightmare, only to go out of the aged care royal commission.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, it hadn't even finished before COVID hit.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, people in nursing homes were not just dropping like flies, but were absolutely miserable because they were being stopped from seeing any of their loved ones.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: They were completely lonely.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And all I could think of is just don't want to end up like that.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just don't want to end up like that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Hear you.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: So the more I looked into it, yes, it's scary.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I think a lot of us see it as like this inevitable thing that, you know, if your numbers up, your numbers up.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: If dementia's coming for you, it's coming for you.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it turns out that a third of dementia can at least be prevented altogether.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we can probably do things to delay it by about five years.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: All of us can do things like that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: However, the critical piece is we've got to start now in midlife.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no point in sort of kidding 65, you know, 70 and just going, oh, oops, my brain.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now let's start doing things.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: It looks like by that stage, because it takes 20 years for the signs of dementia to sort of crop up at all, by the time you're actually showing signs of being a bit forgetful or even being a bit paranoid, having some personality changes, like there's a lot of damage that's actually done.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're gonna take steps to avoid dementia, the time to do it is now.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that yes, and I think that's just like I know it's coincidentally the time of your life where you are the most insanely busy you will ever be.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, people think that you're really busy as a young mum, and I agree you are, but you almost kind of accept that your career is not gonna be crazy, and your parents are, if anything, helping you out.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: They're not like your emotional toll.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: You're you know, you don't really see a coming, do you?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_04: You don't see that you're suddenly look, you're still looking after kids because even if they are on their own path, they are still in need and they still need support.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: But then you've got elderly parents that you're worried about.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: So you're right, the sandwich generation is something we're not really that prepared for, or it's not, and it's only recently been talked about in this way.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: So 100%.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a peak time for divorce.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're not getting divorced yourself, one of your girlfriends is, and you're sort of like you're pulled into the drama that is your best friend's divorce, the vortex, and then you're still trying to take mum to all her doctor's appointments and worried because you know, dad's not taking his pills and everything else.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it is really busy.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: So what I tried to do was to say, yes, it's all about doing making some changes now, but it can be super easy.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm not sitting in here going, right, no takeaway for you.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're now going to give up your genotonic.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're also gonna start, you know, exercising for 45 minutes a day.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: If you have time for that, good on you.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited for you.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly don't.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: But it's more about like what can you do to make some really simple changes that can actually really make a significant reduction in your risk of having um, you know, dementia when you're older.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's a bit of a no-brainer.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: Literally.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, what is quite extraordinary is that I think only until recently people have never thought that we could be proactive and make changes that would impact that.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_04: And something that I think is part of the context of this is that we're all talking about how we can address middle-aged full stock, whether it's Naomi Watts talking about menopause with iron stripes, or which you will, you and I will also touch on.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: It is definitely a great, if you're like a middle-aged movement, they're actually talking about it.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_04: Have you heard the the term genes, which I love?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm really into it.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's great, which is yeah, I love it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's so cool.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like middle-aged women taking control of their destiny, saying, I don't have to do it that way, I can do it differently.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't have to become invisible and and no longer vocal and no longer explore options.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, whether it's Lisa Rena dancing a little tush off on the, you know, which is hysterical, everybody is saying, wait, you know, and so you and I are privileged in some ways because the generation before us, literally before us, really almost became virtually invisible after 50.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_04: Now it's great to see, like my daughter, you've got kids the same age as me.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: My kids are saying, you know, they look to us as role models, as mentors, as people that actually do have control of our story.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_04: And this is all part of it, what you're talking about, which is being informed, educated, and taking action.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think what we need to uh remember is that all of a sudden at midlife, we're earning money thanks to our mothers and our grandmothers who blaze that trail for us.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: We've gone to uni, we've got good careers.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: We don't, we are the biggest consumer body.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like as a group, women like in their late 40s through to sort of mid-60s are the biggest consumers.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, every company wants to get us on the board.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's really important for them.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we actually are empowered.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: We are educated.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: We are, we know what we're talking about.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: We know how to research, we know how to find things out.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: We are not interested in just being told, you know, don't you worry, pretty little headed about it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Things that our mothers tolerated, we would never tolerate.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we are in this amazingly fortunate position.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think when it comes to brain research, what was really interesting is that for a long period of time, it's not easy to look at brains.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can really easily um do keyhole surgery and have a look at your liver.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: You can have a look at your girly organs, you can have a look at your heart.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's not easy to, there's no real keyhole surgery that allows you to just go in and like have a scurry around the brain.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: You can call it out after you're dead in an autopsy.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can scan it.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Scans are notoriously a little bit difficult to, you know, to work with.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: So all none of this is particularly easy, but I would say that um we were learning so much more.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we used to think that there was like dementia was Alzheimer's disease.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And now we know that very rarely do you get a single type of dementia on its own.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Very, very rare.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Mostly what you get is a couple of different types of dementia together.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the big ones is what we call vascular dementia.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's like all your lifestyle stuff.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So all of the things that give you a heart attack and a stroke and you know, not so, you know, slightly dodgy arteries in your legs, that's also working in the small blood vessels of your brain.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And what we know now is that if you get two types of dementia together, get a little bit of Alzheimer's disease, it maybe wouldn't have affected you for 25, 30 years, but you will also get a bit of vascular dementia, a little bit of white matter disease in your brain, because the blood supply to your brain is not quite what it should be.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: You can actually one plus one equals 57 and it makes your dementia worse.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Alzheimer's disease, even in its early stages, but you add in another risk factor for depression, whether it's like high blood pressure that damages the white matter because it interrupts the blood supply to the brain, or you get depression, or you're not sleeping well, and you add those things in, what you get is one plus one equals 57.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we know is while, yes, to a certain extent Alzheimer's disease, we are a little bit at the early days of understanding just exactly why it happens, what genes are involved, how to treat it.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: It is early days, and we don't have great treatments for that.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: But we can take all the all the other things away that actually compound your Alzheimer's disease and make it worse.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that means we can delay your Alzheimer's and we can also prevent, it seems, about a third of it altogether.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: From the recent battlefields of Ukraine to the refugee camps of Greece and Syria, Dr.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_04: Alison Thompson has spent more than two decades helping those when they need it the most.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: And as the tragedy in Turkey unfolds, with more than 20,000 deaths and thousands more impacted by the devastating earthquake, Dr.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: Allison's team is on the ground to assist, providing much needed resources to save lives.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_04: This is her gift, a tribe of global volunteers that can be activated whenever and wherever the crisis strikes.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: So in this situation, you've obviously got cold, you've got inability to access.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do you manage who you send in there and and what are the actual logistics of that?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_04: So let's say um you the earthquake occurs.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: What's the first thing?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: Can you step us through how you who do you know how to tap?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: How do you make sure that, like as you mentioned, there were some doctors you were meeting with about strategy?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_05: So what how do you oh what is your process for every disaster?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_05: So you can track it.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we have a we have a full uh rescue team that goes into the disasters, we have an all-female team, but I chose um some other experienced male uh rescuers to send in.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_05: And they just we get plane tickets, we go, you know, and you land.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_05: And I always have I have a lot of contacts in Turkey.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_05: I always have contacts in all these countries.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_05: So we we get ahead, we get details, they'll meet us at a Dana airport or and then lead us in.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_05: Or there's always a way to do it, but um, it's just it's hard to explain the.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: The algorithm because it's completely different in every different country.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_05: And yes, yes, that would make sense.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_05: But depending on the need.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm very surprised to see that some intel that they started knocking down a lot of the buildings with bulldozers.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_05: And this is still in the air in the time gap where you can still find people alive, and they are finding people every day.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_05: They found in Syria a baby still attached to its mother with the pilgrims.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_05: So there's so much intel.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm just it's a bit bizarre that they're starting to knock down some of those.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: And there's a lot of they say political things behind that, but I'm not going to get into that because it could put our volunteers in danger.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_05: So there's always all that stuff going on.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_05: And we just focus on people and rescuing people and loving people.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_05: So usually in a disaster, if I can be more broader, it's we do the search and rescue and then medical, and then the non-medical people help with food and with solar lights and water filtration.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: And it just builds like that.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_05: It's a bit hard to send too many over there, but we're trying to get people that we know and volunteers that live in those regions.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_05: And there's, I've got a lot of Turkish friends here who are giving us so much intel as well.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_05: So a lot of work to be done.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_05: And but it's really, really horrific.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_05: It's a it's a horrific disaster.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_04: And do you feel that the that your the global support?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's it would appear, as you say, there's a lot of countries that have stepped up.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um do you feel that that this is going to be, you know, we talked about when you were obviously at 9-11 and you saw what happened there and you ended up staying eight months and being very, you know, involved.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: It went on for a long time and uh even beyond that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think this is something, as you mentioned, they're trying to knock down the buildings?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_04: Is that for safety or you're not sure?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: But you you want to, you know, I'm interested in whether they will, you know.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_05: Theories, there's certain areas that didn't vote for the government, you know.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_05: And interesting areas aren't getting a uh yeah, there's a lot of different things.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_05: It's interesting because there's sanctions, and US has sanctions against Syria, but they've they've dropped it to be additional.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_05: I saw that into that area, so that's interesting.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, there's this always a lot of chaos going on.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um and politics don't disappear, is what you're saying.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_04: Is that there's politics overlay all the time, it's not like that dissipates.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_05: And there's not enough trucks in the area, there's no gas down there.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_05: That happens in every disaster.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_05: They can't get the trucks, they can't get petrol.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I started saying gas in America, but petrol, I still said petrol too.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you're an Aussie at heart.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they need hand warmers, they need like phone charges, you know, they they're desperate for phone charges because there's no way to get, you know, charge your phone and that.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_05: And they really need shovels, simple shovels, because you're digging in there, they keep breaking, you know, so simple things, but then tents, you know, because people are sleeping out of the street around little fires because there's nowhere for them to stay.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_05: So it's just so much need.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm really worried about the aid because I know how that works in all of these countries.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_05: You know, it backs up and people send it and send it, but it doesn't always make it to the people.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_05: That's why, where about if we send aid or we we take it with us, we hand deliver it to them and say we love you, and here it is, but we don't just send it off in containers because we know it gets sold out the back door.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm very concerned about that aid not reaching.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's a very important distinction, and I think that's really smart.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: So you make sure that you actually hand it over to the people that need it, but you only have a limited amount of people on the ground because of access.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_04: Is that right at the moment?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_05: No, um, not so much that.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it costs a lot of money to send people halfway around the world.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we're always careful about donors' money and everything, and uh yeah, that's just that's the most important part.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_05: But we do have a lot of other um groups that we're we're all working together and we always do that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_05: A lot of small grassroots, so I know a lot on the ground there.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_05: So we're just all working together, but we'll see how it builds.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_05: And which we still don't know how long we'll stay.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it depends because there's a lot of rules and and the president has a lot of restrictions and things that are going to be putting in place.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_05: So it's kumbaya now, and it's always kumbaya for the first month or so, but then it gets crazy, you know, jealousies and anger and the stages of grieving because you know, so many people have died.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_05: So it gets really complicated.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_05: So we'll just see how it goes.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_05: We just go day by day right now.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: So if people listening want to contribute, those items that you actually talked about, what are the logistics of actually really donating and funding is the is the critical element, I gather, because I know you've sent me a link, but but you know, the things that you outlined shovels, tents, basically.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's not worth it.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's expensive to put in containers and it's probably not going to get there.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_05: So we're we focus on the solar lights and things that we can do, and we usually actually buy a country to support the economy and that because there are big cities that that have things that you can buy, but I'm sure that I mean I'm sure they're getting low by now.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_05: But uh, we concentrate on things we can bring, like you know, water filtration, solar light, and things like that.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_05: The tents is really, really important, but um, that's a bit complicated for us, you know.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_05: We need big containers, and so uh USAID and Australian aid and all that sort of stuff would be best to help with that.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: And are you working closely with the Australian government at all?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_04: Because obviously you're an Aussie at heart, but you've got a lot of contacts in the US and in fact globally.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_05: So not in this one yet, but you know, it's only just still to be, yeah, five days, it's early, and we have to focus on our mission, and it's yeah, it's just getting in there, no red tape bureaucracy.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_05: And usually when you work with governments, it takes months and months and long.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_05: But to get to get traction.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_04: So private, private, as you mentioned, um, private philanthropy or par people who step up and can give.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_05: That's how it works.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_05: Grassroots, you get in there, like even all the citizens are racing down there, driving like 12 hours with sandwiches and standing, giving out tea and everything.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_05: And it's really that's why we're third way volunteers, it's about everyone's needed, you know, handing out water.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: You don't have to be a super brain, hand out water, give us someone a hug, they need heating stoves.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_05: So we're just standing there, you know, doing something.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_05: There's always something for everyone to do, and just not not to get in the way, but it is very dangerous down there as well.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_05: So you just have to be careful.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_05: It's always about safety first.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_05: That's what we tell everyone.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_05: Because if we don't survive, no one else, we can't save anybody.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_05: So you have to be just on the ball and and really professional about it when you're doing the actual rescues.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that's something that to be honest, you've really mastered because you've done a lot of these, unfortunately, but also fortunately, you've been present.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_05: Um yeah, I was just saying, seeing some of the photos they're sending me and things, it reminded me of September 11th back in 2001, just just the the spaghetti steel corrugated iron and everything.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_05: And I was looking at these rescues and I'm like, that looked exactly like it was from September 11th, you know, 2001 in New York, but it's it's so after a while it kind of all does look the same, you know, all the earthquakes, tsunami's and disasters.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure, yeah, because it's it's really just about complete decimation and destruction.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so, really, your mission is to ensure that you get the right people on the ground and that you access the well, I suppose those simple things, like whether it's water, tents, shovels, or as those brilliant lights that I know that you featured in our last interview.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the power of light is really interesting, the way that you've actually that's become quite symbolic of what you do, as well as literally.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_05: Isn't it fun to light up the world, light up the dark areas?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_05: We have so much love in our hearts and love to give to everyone, and that's what we focus on.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_05: But we just, it's so important that the aid gets to the people.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_05: I can't say that enough because I just see it sitting around in warehouses and being sold.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_05: So you we have to get that right, you know.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_05: We have to.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_04: You still have this wonderful energy and this, I suppose I would call it optimism or a sense of even though you've seen so much trauma and tragedy, how do you hold on to that?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: And how I mean, that's something that you and I have talked about before, but in this situation, it's actually, I suppose, essential in order to be effective.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you go, there's no point you going sort of down and and depressing and under the under the radar because of what's that gonna do?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: So is that something you've just honed, or do you think you're naturally like that?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_05: No, it's naturally or just over all these years happened, but it's like there's always so much good in the world as well, and humanity comes together after this, and on the ground, it's like utopia, and enemies are working together.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_05: There's Russians working if you Ukrainian soldiers over there, and there's like you know, everyone just comes together and it's just a beautiful feeling, and that doesn't last too long, but for when it lasts, it's beautiful, and we just wish the whole world could be like that on a normal day.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, so we we we get that that fills us up, you know, the love and the hugging and everybody working together, it just it just it's magic, you know, and the universe opens up and people start helping from all directions, and you don't do it because of that, but when you do it purely like that, you know, it that the better stuff stays in your heart, and all the bad stuff, you know, you push that aside and you keep present, but uh, but when you fill it with the love, because the world is full of love and hate, we wouldn't survive, we wouldn't be around if it was just all hate.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_05: So there are good people out there, and we see it in these zones, giving it everything they have, not sleeping for days, trying to find people alive.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_05: So that's how we keep up the hook.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: Nearly 300,000 women give birth in Australia each year, and one-third of them describe their birth experience as seriously traumatic.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_04: I wish someone had told me is the most common phrase for women after they give birth for the first time.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_04: Sophie Walker's groundbreaking new book, The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth, is out this month.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_04: Author of Australian Birth Story, Sophie is a mum of three with a master's in public health.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_04: In 2017, Sophie Walker launched her business from the back of her Nissan X-trail.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: In five years, it's grown to a million-dollar empire.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_04: Since the podcast launched, it's had over 10 million downloads.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, I think 11 million as of this week.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I guess I had I've got three um boys myself, so I had my first birth experience, and I would say that I fall into that category of one in three.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that that birth really caught me by surprise, and it led me to kind of really immerse myself in further birth education, and I really consumed as many birth stories as I could.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: And at that time in 2017, there was really only podcasts that weren't a big deal here in Australia at that point.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: So the content that I was able to find was all sort of American-based or English-based.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I think after my second birth was such a positive experience, I thought, oh, just almost for fun with a girlfriend, I said, Oh, I should just do my own podcast, having no kind of tech experience.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was working in healthcare.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I just followed a YouTube and set up a podcast and did my birth story and my sister and some close friends, and had no idea it would evolve in the way that it has over the last sort of six or so years.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, the podcast has just reached 11 million downloads.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I I definitely filled a void.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_04: And how many people wanted to express how they were feeling and the journey they'd been on?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: And you've tapped into that.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_04: And as a podcaster myself, I know the power of the podcast, and it's quite an exciting, and I suppose the independence of that platform is what's so wonderful.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_04: And you've really tapped that.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it started organically, really, without a strategy, which I really like, which is similar to how I started, and then it grows and you develop this wonderful community.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so how did that, how did that, I suppose, escalation start to really what was the turning point?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think the fact that it did grow kind of gradually and organically helped because I think if I'd thought at the time, oh, I'm gonna have to grow this community, I'm gonna have to sell ads and make courses and write a book, I would have thought, oh no, that's too hard.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'll just stay in my part-time job and I'll work under somebody else and have some key guidelines of what my expectations are.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: But I think um I sort of learnt along the way.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: I shifted at in the beginning, I was listening still to birth stories, and then once I started the podcast, I started listening to business podcasts and thought, okay, I've got to learn the ropes here.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think I learnt along the way that a good way to kind of grow the audience would be to interview people of um that have their own community.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I reached out sort of initially to a few influencers.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: I started my marketing on Instagram, so some kind of mum bloggers that I thought people would be curious.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, because no one was really sharing their birth stories widely, there was all this kind of new material and another side to people that they perhaps hadn't had the opportunity to get to know.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I was very thankful in that I just kind of emailed these people cold turkey and just said, Oh, would you be interested in coming on my podcast and sharing your birth story?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like every woman I've come across has said yes, because there's a real cathartic benefit in sharing it and documenting it and trying to help other women.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really how it grew momentum quite quickly.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then I moved into other kind of somewhat strategic tactics and kind of interviewed women that had big Facebook communities in the birth space.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought, well, if I interview those, then they'll share their story to a whole lot of women who are really curious in this area.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: And and then I think it just took on a life of its own.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: And through word of mouth, as soon as I feel like now, as soon as people are pregnant, they're like, Are you listening to Australian birth stories?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: So now it kind of does its own thing with my super fans out there.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: But um, that's kind of initially how I got the ball rolling.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think I think what's interesting is that you created a community, but you also gave people a voice and a platform in an arena that was, as you say, like the Facebook, the private Facebook uh communities, they have a they're great because everybody can can share stories.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: But what this did was take it really to another level where people who might not be members of anything could actually jump on board as well, which I think is really important.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_04: And also it there's a lot of trust involved.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like I know, even with what I do, the same thing.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_04: People have to trust that they're being held and that they can be confident that they can share their story in a safe space, I suppose.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_04: And that's you know, something that you were clearly aware of doing and confident to do.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, how how challenging was that to create the, you know, to get the parameters?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like for me, it's what I've learned.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's very clear.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_04: What have I learned and how's that changed me?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_04: How can I help others?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's a very, you know, I suppose broad but in some ways specific tenant.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas, and in some ways you had a very similar notion, which is every woman who's had a baby would love to share their story, but they have to trust who they're sharing it with because it's very intimate, actually, what you yeah, you know.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like a therapy session that people come to get to listen to.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: I love Esther Perel's work, so I love listening to her for me.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: My mum's a psychologist, so and I've had plenty of therapy, myself, individual therapy.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess I'm acutely aware of that dynamic of really actively listening to vulnerable um stories and having been on both sides of that conversation.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think actually you'll find in a lot of my episodes, I don't actually speak a lot because I think once once a guest kind of finds their groove and gets over their kind of first five minutes of nerves, they just take themselves right back to that day and and are able to kind of share their story in a really detailed way.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I I definitely kind of probe with more for more detail in certain points, but often when I'm thinking of a question to ask, I hold back a little bit, they kind of offer that up themselves.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I've kind of learned um that technique just over the years.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think um I feel too nervous to go and listen to the very first episodes because um I I really thought no one would be listening.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um I relate to that so much, I really do.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_04: I relate to that so much.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_04: My first interview is with Deborah Lee Finesse on my podcast, and I remember thinking, well, I know people are gonna want to listen to what she said, but uh can I actually do this?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_04: And that was four years ago too.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I relate to that notion of just stepping slowly and not necessarily so strategically.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously, you got more strategic in time, but to the core of your uh, I suppose the essence of what you're you're doing is also trying to change the dialogue, but also change the way that some of it's actually become an actionable message, not just here's my story, but how can I change the way that some of this stuff is addressed?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I mean, you talk about Australia's birthing education system and it needs a dramatic overhaul, which I totally agree with.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_04: So suddenly you become actually somebody with a mission.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_04: And your your listeners, I am assume, many are driving a similar mission.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you talk about increased funding for midwifery, increased access to maternal assisted cesarean, scrapping the 12-week taboo, uh, increasing visibility of miscarriage, dealing with the grief of an early pregnancy loss, fertility and birth privilege.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: There's a lot of topics that you cover.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_04: How are you getting traction on those?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: And what, I mean, obviously there's a lot there.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: What's a standout for you or some of the standout issues?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think that's been a real mindset shift for me because I've really tried to not give my opinion for so many years, and I want it to be a safe place where everyone from all walks of life with different birthing experiences feels like their story is valid and not and not judged.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like I've deliberately not kind of voiced my opinions.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: And yet over the last few years, as the community's grown so strong, and then with more recent work, I'm getting more kind of media attention.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: I've now kind of realized, and I'm sort of inadvertently tapping into my public health degree and the kind of that, yeah, that kind of responsibility to then advocate for change.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: If if we all know what the kind of gold standard of care and access should be, um, I really am now trying to channel all those stories and all this trust that people have given me.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: I've got over 5,000 birth story applications.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I've got so much content, detailed content of like location and type of birth and private, public, all that sort of stuff.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like I now need to kind of take that to another level and really advocate for change.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: We've just kind of it's kind of coincidental in when the books come out, but we've suddenly had a whole lot of maternity um hospitals closing.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's um so now I'm really trying to use the spotlight from the book's attention to really kind of get, yeah, more kind of just everyday people realizing that really this is a huge, huge problem.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: And just this morning, another hospital in um Tasmania closed down, and it's like, well, these women now have to drive four hours to get care.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that we, you know, we're in a first world country and it's we've got Medicare, we've got all these things, it's not good enough.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: Why is this happening?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: Why are they changing why are they closing?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: Is it lack of funding, like lack of staff, lack of doctors?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_04: My daughter's actually just graduated as a doctor.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm very aware that um there's a shortage of doctors, and particularly in the rural space.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but not just the rural space.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: What why do you think this is happening?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: What's your Yeah, it's definitely multifaceted.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: There's there needs to be more funding, there needs to be um more people encouraged to train in these professions.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there's been a real burnout which has kind of even been exacerbated by COVID and the extra challenges.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of um midwives that work in this space are mothers and need flexible working hours.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: And as we all know, healthcare professionals are notoriously underpaid for the work and the pressure that they're under.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it is hard to encourage and draw stuff into these hospitals that are at breaking point.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so a lot of hospitals are now offering kind of bonuses and incentives.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: Even in Tasmania, before this one closed, they were offering midwives a$10,000 bonus to come and work in these hospitals.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: And people are kind of looking at going, well, why would I put myself through that?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you break down the very meaning of midwife, it means to be with women, and yet they feel like, um, I mean, I'm speaking on behalf of them, but I think a lot of them feel like they can't practice the profession that they know and love because of the restrictions.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: They've got too many women under their care.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so they can't support you in the way that they would like to.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think a lot of um midwives are saying, well, then perhaps this isn't for me anymore.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: So we've got a lack of staff to fill the spots and then very challenging.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, also we know that midwifery care is um yeah, fantastic, has fantastic outcomes, and yet we need obstetricians to oversee the midwifery care, and then we need pediatricians and we need boring ethicists.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a systemic issue, and obviously it takes kind of seven or eight years to be trained and be able to work in that field, so it's definitely not a quick fix.
• 43:33
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