Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Symbiosis Gear Creator & Owner Sarah Berkeley | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 31

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Symbiosis Gear Creator & Owner Sarah Berkeley | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 31 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: Welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead this week. We've got some great guests this week. Her name is Sarah Berkley with Symbiosis Gear. How are you doing, Sarah? speaker-1: I'm doing really well. Thanks for having me on. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, ⁓ I just wanted to have you on. I know we have a different range of companies on here all the time. And we had talked a little bit on Instagram and wanted to just get to know a little bit more about you and the fact that, you know, you're making backpacks and a specific type of backpack. And I thought it would be great to have you on and just talk more about your background, how you came up with your product, you know, the ups and downs and stuff like that. So I guess. Without further ado, go ahead straight into who you are, what you do, and how you came up with this. speaker-1: Yeah, I'm Sarah Berkley and I'm the founder of Symbiosis Gear. make backpacking gear for people with boobs. speaker-0: That's why was like, oh, my wife will love this. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I'm based in Leadville, Colorado, and I started the business. I founded it in 2022 and launched our first product, the Aspen, which is an ultralight frameless pack in spring of 2024. So we've had a product on the market for just about two years now. I came up with this because I'm a thru-hiker. And I went through three backpacks on the PCT. Like none of them fit my body very well. I was getting lighter and lighter and I would see all these guys with these cute little ultra light packs. And then I get up close and there would be like a sternum strap that didn't slide up and down at all. And I was like, I'm not going to order that online and like find out it doesn't work for my body. So like I emailed one company, I was like, Hey, can you just like make a small tweak to that pack? That's so cool. And you know, make more adjustability in the sternum strap. And they didn't even write back. And so I felt really excluded and frustrated. like, so there I was carrying, you know, a 60 liter pack that weighed, you know, like 20 pounds total. So ⁓ that was 2019. I sat on the idea for a couple of years before I decided to start the business. Honestly, I kind of hoped somebody else would do it. And they didn't, and I still needed a backpack. So I went ahead and started the business myself. speaker-0: Awesome. So did you do the whole PCT? speaker-1: I did the whole PCT. Yeah. speaker-0: That's awesome. So jealous. That sounds like an awesome adventure. got one day, one, we'll do it one day, but that's cool. So I think the great thing about hearing about cottage brands, you know, smaller businesses is you have a problem and you figure out a solution to it. And like you just said, you were hoping somebody would do it and then you're waiting and waiting. And sometimes it's just because a bigger company it's not as big a viable of a market for them or they're just not even thinking about it. And you know, that someone didn't email you back. You're like, at least they could do. I hate it when people just want to least email you back and say, sorry, we don't, we can't do that. You know, I'm like, just at least send me an email back. ⁓ So at what point did you go, okay, I need to, cause is from what I understand, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. Yours is more the strap construction, but I'm sure the bag construction has to follow the straps, right? You can't just throw a different strap on something. You still got to create everything. So like how many versions did you go through or how did you start going about doing it in the testing phases and stuff like that? speaker-1: Yeah, that took two years. So it definitely took a long time and a lot of iterations on that. Yeah. So I started with a pattern from my buddy I met on the PCT who made his own backpacks. And then I hired somebody to make the first prototype. I cut it apart and redid the straps myself, put them back on. Then I worked with some consultants, got their input. In hindsight, it was not that helpful. could have done without them and save a lot of money. This is part of my journey and story too, is just trusting myself and my experience and myself as the expert, and not always going to the male experts who are touted as such. ⁓ So yeah, so we got that. Then I sent that prototype ⁓ to a factory and then we iterated like another six times from there. speaker-0: Okay. So I guess my question is then, do you, what part of your bags do you handmade versus do you get made or did you kind of flop back and forth between those? speaker-1: Yeah, great question. So I have a background in art. I was an artist for 20 years. And there was a moment I was in a studio late at night making multiples of this sculpture that was selling. And I was like, how does this scale? And I just pictured like, ⁓ OK, it scales by me designing one thing and hiring a bunch of people to make multiples. And I was like, this is not what I want for my art career. I was much more interested in ideas and concepts. So then I went to grad school and I started making conceptual art and I was an art professor. So I have two business models there for art. One was like selling products and the other one is the patron model of the university. In 2018, I decided to leave my position as a professor and I'm getting around to answering your question by the No, you're good. It's a long intro. reason I bring that up is that was really my first business was being an artist. I didn't think of it as a business per se. And there was this kind of like tension between what do I want this thing to do in the world? And like, what do I want my experience of making to be? And how am I going to keep putting food on the table? ⁓ So I did that. ⁓ And then when I quit my professor job, I was like, okay, what other business models are there? And I looked into the gallery model and so on and so forth. And finally, I just was like, The art world is not set up for artists to be financially successful. And I founded a web design business. Um, so it had a background in web design. was teaching web design. It's easy for me. A lot of people need help with that and I enjoyed it. So I had a service based business then, and I thought about how do you scale this and a couple of ways, you know, one, you can do high end bespoke work. You can replace yourself and have an agency essentially, or you can productize. And I ended up settling on high end bespoke work. So then when I came to Symbiosis Gear, I had those two experiences behind me of two other business models. And I knew I did not want to be sewing all day every day. the mission of the business is to be in every outdoor store on the planet. Like we should have women's specific gear in all outdoor stores. ⁓ To reach that goal, I felt like I would grow slower if I was making the products myself. I love businesses that do that. It's such a beautiful thing. That's not what I wanted to do. I didn't want to have long lead times. I wanted people to be able to order online today and get it next week and want people to be able to try it on in all these stores. ⁓ yeah, so that's why I started from the beginning with hiring professionals who have more experience making these specific types of things. That said, I'm coming back to like... maybe more of a middle ground where I want to be doing more of the prototyping myself and get my hands in there. There are a lot of other parts to running a business. So it's sometimes hard to find time to like sit down on the sewing machine and play around and be in that creative space. yeah, that's next product. I'm going to prototype it myself. speaker-0: Yeah. That's cool. I like the fact that you say like, if you have any store, right, you'll see a women's section and you'll have a bunch of different women's fitted clothing, and then you have a men's section with all that. So you would think that, you know, we would have bags that would be shaped for women and shaped for men. Because I can't tell you how many bags everybody, I'm sure you've tried on tons of bags. I've tried on tons of bags. There's just some bags I love. They look cool, but they just don't fit me very well. Right? And my wife, always get, I always, hey, take this bag and wear this bag. And then she'll always complain about something. And I just like, I just tell her to suck it up because I just, just assume and I forget. So it's a great reminder that like, there's all these shapes out there and that you're doing something to cater to women who need a bag that's going to fit them properly. so I guess my, my question now is like the starting of your business. to now, what kind of growth have you seen or what kind of good kind of uphill climbs you've seen and what are some downhill that you're like, ⁓ man, this is a lot harder than I thought because of that. speaker-1: Yeah, I'm learning all the time. yes, yes, there are definitely some hard things, definitely some missteps. Starting with the positive, we've gotten some really good awards, reviews. That's been amazing. I gave a pack to Double Dip Katie Jackson in 2024. She came down to CDT days with me and helped me with my booth. And afterward I was like, Hey, do you want a pack in exchange for helping me? And she was like, ⁓ I don't know. I'm starting this CDT in a couple of days. don't like, and I was like, look, I'll just give you one, try it. You don't have to use it. She tried it. She absolutely loved it. She's going to have a huge fan of the brand. Told so many people about it. ⁓ Same thing with Swiss cake. I met her on the CDT when I was hiking in in 2024 and she bought the pack mid trail, switched her pack. And last year she worked like six booths with me. And to hear these women talk to other women about their experience with it, that means so much to me. It's like, okay, it's not just me and this product actually works. So that's been incredibly validating and really exciting. Yeah, on the challenge side, well, you know, of course there's like big things out of my control, like tariffs and things like that. ⁓ I'm also learning to be a better negotiator with the factory and suppliers. So not everybody knows, they make the fabric custom for me. So there's a minimum order on that. And I didn't know I could negotiate that for the first run. So I have fabric sitting in a factory in Vietnam, like a lot of it. there's that, which is, that's my cash tied up in supplies. had that business savvy and knowledge beforehand, I would have that cash in hand to do other things with. So that's been kind of a learning curve. Same on the minimum order quantities for the bags. Like I met somebody who her first order from China was 5,000 units. And so when my factory said 500, I was like, oh, that sounds reasonable. So I ordered 500 packs. then that kind of like, oh crap moments were when it was being delivered, there was two pallets, two pallets of backpacks going into my storage space. And I was like, oh no, what did I do? And then Garage Grown Gear picked me up pretty early and I was talking to Lloyd and he was like, how much inventory do you have on hand? And I was like, yeah, I've got like 400s on backpacks. He was like, oh, I think you have more backpacks on hand than we do. And I was like, uh-oh. So I think there was a bit of a... mismatch there in terms of my desire for the product. And I did some market research. People were super excited about this brand, but not as many people were excited specifically about a frameless ultra light backpack for a while. A backpack, yes, but not specifically that. So long story short, it's taking longer to sell through that original inventory than I had hoped. And I've had cash tied up in it. that has slowed my growth in other ways. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ That's a great point that you made about the not knowing that you can negotiate and everything else. I'm learning a lot myself, talking to people about, you start this and you go to create things and it's great to have a, I wonder if there's somehow for people in the future where they have it before they go into that realm, you know, where they can have a mentor, so to speak, to be like, Hey, These are some things you need to do so you're not over ordering things or realizing that you can negotiate a lot of stuff beforehand. Cause that supply chain thing is really rough when you've never done it before. And now you're talking to people that it's a completely different culture and it's a completely different thing. And you're trying to figure it all out, that whole landscape. So at least you didn't have to order 5,000. Right. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you bring up a really good point about mentorship. I did have a mentor, Kay, from Boko Gear, who said to me, she was like, I don't want to come to your house in two years and see a garage full of backpacks. well, here we are. But there was all these details within that of like, I didn't think 500 was that many. I thought I was doing well. And then also all those points in between of each type of fabric I could have negotiated on. And I didn't know. They were just like, here's the cost. And I was like, ⁓ okay, let's find the money for that. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. No, I think so my wife, she's from South Korea. And so I know that like, ⁓ with, with Koreans, if I, if I buy something at the store, that's a large, ⁓ large thing, they'll usually give me two or three things for free. Just as it's like, ⁓ it's an, it's a gimme. And so when I worked at Apple for, I worked at Apple for like two or three years and people would come in and when I was working sales at first, people would come in and my like, they would come in and buy a laptop and they would ask me if they get a free computer case. And I was like, no, no, you're just buying it. And then I had to go home to my wife and my wife would be like, oh, that's just our culture. You buy something like that, you expect to get something. And so when I'm negotiating with my clients all over the world, I have to kind of do a little research into, okay, this is the norm for them to almost double the price. And then I have to come back and give them like 50 % of that. And then we try to find this random middle ground. that I'm like, I would much rather just say, give me the number, this is the number. I hate that back and forth, but yeah, it's something that I think we all learn and sometimes the hard way or the easy way. At least you have bags. Like some people, when I talk to them, they're having a hard time because either they're, you know, it's make your own gear and they're basically doing a bag at a time versus you have a supply that you can say, hey, you order it. Like you said, at least you can get it in someone's hand right away instead of saying, Okay, it's going to be eight weeks when they're going to hit the trail in a week, you know, because I think a lot of us, kind of last minute go, ⁓ I just need to go hiking or I just need to go on a trip to get my brain free and stuff like that. So that's great. ⁓ so when I've seen that you have some accessories and stuff like that as well, but just going back to the bag, what, ⁓ cause I don't have one here. I'm going to, I have them on the screen usually beforehand, but So what specifically makes your bags different for people who are listening, maybe not watching, are different from the typical bag? speaker-1: Yeah. So the S-curve straps really are S-curves, so they go out and around the boobs. They're also narrower than on a lot of unisex or men's packs. So they fit your shoulders better. Like I had one pack on the PCT, the shoulder straps were wide and straight. So they sat over my rotator cuffs and I couldn't really move my arms. So then I like ditched my trekking poles and then I found myself hanging off the side of a mountain by my fingertips because I'd slipped. because I didn't have trekking poles. So, you know, it's not just a comfort issue. It's really a safety issue too, that you have packs that fits. And I met women who have like, you know, permanent nerve damage in their shoulders from backpack straps not fitting well. those are two things. A third one is that the sternum strap fits in anywhere along the shoulder straps. So that fits a really wide range of body shapes and sizes. ⁓ So there's a lot of adjustability in this pack. because there are so many variables in women's bodies. know, like you might have big boobs, small waist, wide hips, or you might have tiny boobs, big belly, narrow hips. So there's just like kind of infinite number of variables there. And so yeah, lots of adjustability. The waist strap, the waist belt goes up to like a triple X size and all the way down as tiny as a human can be. So yeah, those are a few of the features. speaker-0: That's cool. I, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, my wife, she gets really sore shoulders all the time. And, you know, usually I'm shifting her weight obviously down to her hips, but she's always talking about her shoulders. And I just thought it was just her, just her shoulders always going to be like that. But now I'm thinking maybe I need to give her different things to try. Cause I realized that, ⁓ she, her body's completely different than mine is. And that weight is shifting differently. Those. Cause even the width of it, didn't even think about the width of the shoulder straps too. speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think it's kind of a misconception. There is that idea that women should carry more weight on their hips. And I feel like some guy just made that up. Like was like, ⁓ women have wider hips. Let's put some stuff on them. And the whole like ultra like frameless ideas, you're carrying your pack higher. So really the weight is like kind of sandwiched between your shoulder blades a lot. For me, that carries really well. then my speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: mid-back and my hips are free to move, which makes it lot easier for scrambling or going under logs or over things or whatever. ⁓ It's a really different type of feel than what most people are used to for a backpacking backpack, but I find it works really well for me and my customers also love it too. speaker-0: That's cool. So I guess for a woman who's trying to get that pack, is there an easy way for them? Cause I know sometimes the biggest hurdle can be someone trying to get it, trying it on without having to do a full purchase and return or whatever. So is that something that you find as a hurdle or have you found a way around that or how does that pitch work? speaker-1: Yeah, that's one reason I do a lot of wholesale. I'm ⁓ doing sales calls today on the East coast and it's important to me to be in as many retailers as possible. So, you know, not only do women see it and feel welcome in other industries, have the opportunity to try it. ⁓ I did have kind of a funny, maybe not so funny business growth story. I did have a try before you buy option on my website where people could order it, try it. If you like it, you keep it and then you get charged a couple of weeks later. If you don't send it back, no charge. But I got scammed. So I got scammed by an app that did the try before, you buy a thing and yeah, sent out a bunch of packs and never got paid. I don't know what they did with the packs. I don't really know how that scam works. I was looking on the ultra light reddit, like on eBay, are they trying to sell them? speaker-0: ⁓ no. speaker-1: secondhand, I don't know. Yeah. So. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. I've never even heard of that. That's crazy. can't. did it just come through as like a separate order here and there and it ended up sounding like there were different people? Is that how it works? speaker-1: They were different people, different shipping addresses. Yep. And then we went back to Shopify and we're like, Hey, that app that you had on there turned out to be a scam. And it was completely gone. Like they weren't answering the emails and they did it over like Black Friday too. So yeah, they're just like fly by night people. speaker-0: There's evil people out there, you know? I just don't understand how people can do the things that they do sometimes. It's wild. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, especially to pick on a little tiny women owned business, know, that's just starting up like, speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, mean, like we, like we talk a lot about with a lot of people on the show is that, um, people think that when they see a website with products and everything else, they assume it's like a giant team of people behind it and everything. And they might not go to your about me section and realize it's just you. And so they think it's this big company when reality 95 % of time, it's just like you may be one other person, you know, doing everything. And so ⁓ they don't realize that they're hurting that one person by quite a lot. So. speaker-1: Yeah, I heard you say that on another episode and I really appreciated that. was like, yes. And it is this funny thing of like, you know, you're trying to look really professional, do the marketing. And there was a point I was like, I think it's looking too professional. People think that we're like bigger than we are, which, know, in some, I do want people to trust the brand and I am very professional and, know, and I do have an assistant. But also it is mostly just me, like you said. speaker-0: Yeah. Now, when you're going through by yourself too, it's that you gotta watch that fine line of marketing yourself so that people connect with you, but then not marketed so much that people go, ⁓ it's just a person and then they don't take you seriously either. yeah, it's interesting. When I did our wedding photography, at one point we were growing, kind like you were talking about earlier, I can go the boutiquey way and basically charge a lot more or I can like... be the boss and then sub out a bunch of people. And we decided that we're going to do the weddings all on our own. And then we're not going to contract out a bunch of photographers and then me sit here and not do everything. was hard. It it was great. I'm busy still, but then I also can't do as many weddings. But then in the end, I'm, I might be making more money, but the actual bottom line I'm actually not making anymore. Cause I've got to pay payroll and medical and insurance and all this stuff. then. More money, more problems. And more people, more problems. speaker-1: Yeah, there's a funny thing about scaling a business. I was just talking to, I know if you heard of Nunatech, they are also here in Leadville and they do really cool custom puffy jackets and sleeping bags and stuff. They share exactly the same thing. There was a point when they had a bunch of employees, but their net profit was less than it is when they have just the two of them and a few contractors. speaker-0: Yeah. Was there a moment when you first started doing the bag where you were like, ⁓ wow, this is actually, you know, like, look, this is actually working, you know, where maybe you finally got your first sale or two and you're like, ⁓ people really want to purchase what I, what I'm making, what I have to say. speaker-1: Yeah, mean, were moments along, I mean, even just testing it myself, I was like, this is actually what I've been dreaming of for years. And then, yeah, the validation of like the first order coming in from somebody that you don't know. Yeah. You're like, ⁓ who is this person? Yeah. That's it. speaker-0: Googling them like ⁓ my gosh, who is this? speaker-1: Are they a friend of a friend? Yeah. even still, feel like, yeah, curious about these folks. And I am very accessible on Instagram and stuff. So a lot of folks do chat with me first through Instagram, or I meet them at an event, or they are coming through referrals. ⁓ But yeah, that first person I didn't know ordering was a big moment. speaker-0: Yeah, that's cool. So I guess going into that, there any cool stories, like maybe customer testimonials or reviews that like hit you really hard that were like, ⁓ this was awesome, you know? speaker-1: Yeah, somebody wrote a review about how she had, I think she said like H cup breasts, something very big that I was like, I I never heard of that. Okay. And has kids and she's day hiking with her kids and loves the big water bottle pockets for all the kids stuff. And that was a great aha moment for me because I'm like, okay, this pack has utility way beyond. the through-hiker kids or grownups. And that was a big aha moment. also, yeah, it just felt really good that she took it and tried it and used it for another application. speaker-0: Yeah. That's great to hear like, ⁓ cause sometimes you create a product and you attend it for one thing. And then next thing you know, you're like, man, I have like three or four other markets that are amazing or potentially sometimes even better. And next thing you know, you end up pivoting your product to come something completely different. You're like, I didn't even realize that everybody that's buying my product is doing something completely off, off the cuff of what I thought was possible. So. And that's really, really cool. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, people have also used it for like putting skis on the sides of it. Yeah. You do that and somebody else used it for business travel a lot and messaged me. was like, you know what the great thing is? I can go in the airport bathroom and I can pee without taking my backpack off. speaker-0: That's awesome. ⁓ So I guess my next question is then, how do you stay balanced being in the outdoor space when you're running your business? Cause you're running two businesses, right? You're doing your other business, you're doing symbiosis. How do you stay connected to the outdoors? ⁓ Cause I mean, it sounds like you're doing phone calls, you're doing, cause you're doing everything. So you're doing phone calls, you're doing sales calls, you're doing. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: trade shows and everything else. And you probably get overwhelmed sometimes. So how do you stay connected to the outdoors? speaker-1: Yeah. Well, living in Leadville makes it easier. Yeah. And I will look out my window at Mount Massive and Mount Albert every day. So start my day with that view and a cup of coffee. So that's, you know, keeps me grounded in that sort of like a bigger, bigger sense of reality. Yeah. I hike and I run and I bike and I ski and, you know, do fun things outside. It is a little harder to take longer. speaker-0: Yeah, of the light. speaker-1: trips at this point than before. So 2024, the year I launched the Aspen, I did a hike half of the CDT and I was really torn out there because I was like, oh, I just started this business that I love. It's peak sales season. I want to be selling. the business is only going to get bigger. I might as well take the time to do this through hike now. And you don't really test the gear also, like taking on a through hike myself along on. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So yeah, it's tricky. ⁓ The local shipping office here, I have an arrangement with them where they can ship orders for me when I'm not here. It's not completely hands off yet on my end, but we're getting there. When we get there, that's going to be a huge milestone. ⁓ And then the other piece is answering customer emails and questions that I don't have ⁓ set up yet. So this summer I'm going to need to take some time off. I may just put, you know, autoresponder. I'm on trial. Sorry. Like I got to get outside. Please be patient. ⁓ Yeah. So yeah, it is super important to still make time for that. speaker-0: Do you know, this just popped into my head, the percentage, and it's funny, I don't actually know this number. I'm sure I could get it very easily, but the percentage of women versus men on trail. So I'm just thinking like product testing, depending on the percentage, it might be easier, it might be harder than you had thought. speaker-1: Yeah, it's pretty, it depends on the trail, like in terms of long trails and so on. ⁓ And that data is a little bit squishier than what you can get from like ⁓ the Outdoor Industry Association does a lot of nice studies. So really in terms of outdoor activities, women are 50 % or more and hiking and backpacking are like the biggest activity for women. ⁓ So yeah, we're a huge part of the market and a huge part of the participants in those activities. speaker-0: Okay. Yeah. Cause when I was on the, um, the AT filming some stuff, I, I mean, was easily 50 % of the people I were running into were women. And so when I had gone hiking last summer, um, I was with some guys and they have a backpacking company and you you're seeing, they're seeing their product out actually out on trail. And it's so cool. Like we were there with the people who created the bag and you walk by someone who's got the bag. And it's like firsthand, like we're running into somebody and then they were like, oh, well, there was a small tear on this one spot. And so then we stopped and we had this huge long conversation with the guy and he's able to kind of tell us how it happened and everything else. then, so then they can go back and look at it go, oh, it's the material or it's this. So, you you going out on a hike versus, you know, those, those women that you had given the bag to, you know, and they're able to do it. So were you able to get some good feedback? I know that you already have those bags. But do you have in your mind like I could tweak this or this doesn't need to be tweaked for like the next iteration if you are going to have an iteration? speaker-1: Yeah, I actually just sent specs to my factory for the Aspen 2.0. Oh, cool. So yeah, super stoked for those little tweaks. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's super important to have people with different types of bodies, different hiking styles, different gear setups to try it out and get feedback. Yeah. Oh, people email me too, and I love hearing from everybody what their experience is. speaker-0: Yeah. I think it's good to be able to take that feedback and grow from it instead of get offended by it. And it sounds like you're really knowledgeable. I'm like, tell me because I need to know so I can make it better. Not, no, I'm not going to change it. You know, those people that they'll create something and they're so hard headed and they're on Shark Tank and the Shark Tank's telling you, just need to not be doing this product. You need to be doing this product. And they're like, no, no, but this is the product. They're like, no, this is the product. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is like, you got to know what your North Star is, you know, and then you can, everything around that can change. you know, people ask me for things that I would love to do, but just maybe are not financially feasible or there's not a big enough market for it. Or I get emails from men like, are you going to make a men's pack? Well. Maybe? I mean, you guys have a lot of options already, but I'm like, well, maybe I'll just make an extra large version of the That's kind of definitely serving women first is the North Star. Does it have to be only women? No. Like the fanny pack we just launched is unisex and there'll be more unisex accessories. So ⁓ just as long as like women's bodies come first in our designs, that's the North Star. speaker-0: I think that's good. You really put your mission out there, which is to help women in the back country, you know, versus we're, and we're still willing to make these things versus some people who are like, this is the only thing that I do. And you're open to it. I mean, it's just like, you could literally go, well, there's plenty of other companies that say they only make men's packs and the market's not there for women, but you can bring the numbers to them and say, Hey, the numbers are there. It's not like they're not out there. I go out with my wife all the time, my daughters all the time. I'm, there's women on the trail all the time. So don't know how people think there's not like a ton of women out there. Yeah. So, ⁓ I was actually shopping for new hiking gear for my daughter. Cause my mentality is wearing like tighter clothes when you're hiking, but she wants like those new, like the baggy, baggy, baggy pants and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I think it looks ridiculous, but then. speaker-1: Totally. speaker-0: She's like, I'll go out hiking with you if I look really good in it. And I'm like, okay, I will bow down to the fashion style that you want to wear. That's fine. ⁓ I don't know if we're to be doing scrambling in those pants. She's like, no, but they cinch up and you can do this and this with it. I'm like, see, I didn't even think about that. I just thought they were puffy pants. speaker-1: Yeah, totally. speaker-0: I'll bring my MC Hammer pants out from back in the day. Just aged myself right there for sure. ⁓ so I guess kind of winding down to a couple other questions I have is... ⁓ What's the weirdest most, and I kinda like this one, it's more of a story than a business question, but what's the weirdest most unexpected place maybe your product has ever shown up so far? speaker-1: Hmm. I don't know if I have an answer for that. ⁓ speaker-0: Maybe it's that mom doing those day hikes. speaker-1: I'm not doing the day hikes. Well, I was also thinking about the, like, where are those packs that I got scammed on? Like, anybody listening sees them on eBay or what, let me know. Like, what are these men doing with those packs out there that they got for free? ⁓ So that's a question hanging out there. ⁓ And then, yeah, Double Dip's pack got stolen out of her car. So who knows where that ended up? Hopefully somebody's using it. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ no. speaker-1: ⁓ but yeah. speaker-0: I don't know how people can steal stuff on the trail. like you go, you park your car or you go somewhere and next thing you know, there's like 50 signs that say don't leave stuff in the car. I'm like, but I'm parking my car here for two weeks. there's gotta be something. can't believe people drive all the way out here, break into my car and then there ends up being nothing. And now it's soaking wet inside. And that's a whole, I could rant about that for days, but. speaker-1: Yeah, her car was, it was actually in Denver. So my hope is that it was a homeless person and that they're using all that gear to improve their life. speaker-0: Yeah, there you go. It went to a better place. Okay, so what does success look like for you now and has that changed since the beginning? speaker-1: Hopefully. Yeah, at the beginning I was very committed to like we're a women's ultra light brand and I realized that's very small niche and ⁓ now I'm more about serving women in the outdoors, really alleviating suffering like physically and then also just the suffering of going into a store and not seeing stuff for you and feeling excluded. So that means, you We've got a day pack launching in the fall. We do the fanny pack. We're going to do a frame pack. That's like a 55 liter type of still on the lighter side. Yeah. Yeah. But not, you know, not the ultra light frameless. We've got that with Aspen. So, um, serving a broader market of women and not just like through hikers. Like I wanted to be this, you know, ultra cool, ultra light, well brand. And they're not a lot of women in that space. Like there are way more women who are doing day hikes or hiking with their kids or going backpacking with a little bit heavier kit. ⁓ So yeah, so that's changed. That focus has changed. Let go of the ultra light only mission. ⁓ Serving women is the mission and yeah, success, well, being profitable. I'm not there yet. And when I'm, mean, as much as I love the other work I do, being able to let go of that and focus 100 % on somebody else's gear. Those are the next two milestones for me. speaker-0: That's great. I, I think the most fulfilling part is when you get to kind of, it's sad, but it's also happy when you get to go a hundred percent into what's your like super passionate about, you know, and sometimes you have to do like that, that double triple grind with jobs in order to get your ideas and passions off the ground and stuff like that. And there's not a lot of people out there because a of people have, I mean, I'm, I'm sure you. do as much as I do, talk to people all the time where they have great ideas, but they don't have the fortitude to push through and do that idea. Or if they do, they go gung-ho into that idea, but they don't want to grind. so they're like, ⁓ I just want, they spend like six hours working on it. And then they're like, ⁓ why isn't that successful? And not always, you don't always have to go through a grind, but most of the time you're going to have to push through. ⁓ I was, I don't know why I always refer to it like having kids and like even birthing a child. I've never birthed a child, but like, I know from my wife having kids, that was a lot of work. I don't know. And you, birthed your baby, you finally have it. And was that huge grind. And now you're like raising that, that kid and stuff like that. And for you to pivot like that's really great. And you know, it's not so much you're changing your whole vision. You're just tweaking it ever so slightly and going, okay. I realized that we're helping out a lot of people, not just that ultra light community, but women as a whole. I mean, that's really cool. I guess totally. What advice would you give, know, for someone on the trailhead of their business who's starting out a business, ⁓ you know, maybe some advice on what not to do or maybe some stuff they should do. speaker-1: Well, I think going back to what you said, is a lot of work for little or no money for a long time. So like I have four years in to this massive volunteer project. Like, yeah, I don't pay myself. Yeah. So we'll get there. But yeah, so that would be one thing of like, be willing to put in the time and the effort. Find out how much money it's going to cost to do the thing. ⁓ market research is really important. Like I got some really good validation upfront. Like we got like 200 responses in the first week of a survey saying, yes, we want this brand. but as I mentioned before, like I could have drilled down a little bit more into what people actually wanted. ⁓ could have been a second survey, you know, like those things really help to, ⁓ mentorship is incredible. ⁓ Found It Outdoors has been really hugely helpful for me. It's a free group ⁓ where I've learned a lot and gotten a lot of support and knowledge through that and peer connections and networking as well. So it's great resource. speaker-0: Do you know of any resources where people can get, ⁓ you know, cause I think like that survey you said is so great where people can get statistics and stuff like that. Cause I think people want to start it, but they don't know where to start to find ⁓ any kind of numbers. know, they try, they Google and stuff like that, but are there any resources for people if they're looking for that? speaker-1: Yeah, the Outdoor Industry Association provides some. They provide some for free and then there's some only for members. ⁓ But those stats are really interesting. Even the free ones are pretty substantial. ⁓ And then some of the trail organizations ⁓ have surveys as well where you can, if you want to know specifically about through hiking and so on. speaker-0: Yeah. Cause when I went to the AT and I'm doing this like video series that I was trying to post very consistently because I'm about an hour, I've started about 45 minutes from the start of the AT and ⁓ I wanted to go up there and ask people like, Hey, I love your, love your setup. What are your big three? Right. And I would love to stop and talk to everybody about like everything that they have, but I was like, ⁓ they're big three, at least as a fun kind of a hook and stuff like that. And it was. Interesting hearing what I thought people were going to have on trail and then what they actually said they had on trail. I was surprised. And again, I'm at the beginning of the trail. So no one's really done a shakedown yet to really modify their gear. And I'm, I'm like, wow, a lot of more people have a, a big Agnes versus what I thought they would have, you know, and then as they do the shakedown, I would go to the store, ⁓ up on trail and then talk to people and they're like, yeah, I just swapped out. this quilt for this sleeping bag for this quilt, or I did this and that and the other. And I'm hearing all these numbers. I'm like, ⁓ I love statistics. So, ⁓ I, know that they take statistics down at the, at the start of the trail, but it's just, it's really cool to hear that. And then you can get to a point where you'd go, I'm hearing these women reaching out saying, I need this. So what kind of questions would you ask like in your next survey? speaker-1: Hmm. ⁓ Yeah, good question. ⁓ Yeah, so in my first one I asked, one of the questions was, ⁓ how do you feel about a women's specific backpacking gear company? 94 % said it's about damn time. And so that was really validating. And that 6 % mostly didn't say yes because they had an option to write in your own answer. Some of the people were like, well, I don't believe in gendered stuff. And what about nine-bond area people? Totally valid, interesting responses. And I asked what packs people used, which really interesting. It like 60 % Osprey, which... speaker-0: Yeah, that's I saw a lot even on the AT is like Osprey, Osprey, Osprey and I'm like, wow. Okay. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, Osprey, particularly because REI carries a lot of Osprey and they're cushy, they're comfy, they're great for getting started and they have some really decent women's specific packs, totally different design than what I offer. ⁓ So great if you want that, great. ⁓ But what I found from the survey was that a lot of women... were using the Osprey because that's was available and that's what they were sold at REI, not because that's what they really wanted. So that's where the missing piece was of like, what do you actually want? And it wasn't, you know, so that part was just a little fuzzy too. ⁓ Cause I assumed, you don't want an Osprey, so you want a Frameless Ultralight pack. And that's quite a leap to go from a 60 liter pack with the trampoline back and like cushy hip building, all of that too. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: 48 liter, frameless. speaker-0: Yeah. I think that's a good, it's, almost like sometimes you can feel like, you know, when you go through hiking or, or you're in the industry as a whole, or you're really engrossed in it, you, you can almost, and I can come, I can do this sometimes where you forget that everybody else isn't engrossed in it. Right. So they just go, like you said, they go in and there's nothing wrong with an Osprey, but they'll go and that's what's available to them. And they go to that store that they have and they don't realize. the number of resources now that are out there for everybody through hiking to just doing a weekend warrior kind of a hike and stuff like that. And it's like, if there's a way that people, I know there's the internet, course, and chat and everything, but like, you you're like, ⁓ you see people and you go, ⁓ if they only knew that they could carry 10 pounds less than what they're carrying right now, they would enjoy it so much more. And so like trying to figure out how do we get that message out to some people when it comes to ultra light or even just hiking in general. know some of the gear can get expensive as you go more ultra light, but there are options out there to lighten your load or even just the knowledge so that you can go a little lighter. don't need, I mean, went on a hike and my buddy, brought his ⁓ military shovel from the Marines. That was like seven pounds. Yeah. We did this whole thing and I was like, told him exactly what to bring. And he's okay with me telling him this and throwing him under the bus, but ⁓ he brought that all because you pack your fears or you hear like you need to bring these things. And so we ended up ditching his shovel like the next day. Cause when we saw, were like, dude, you don't need that shovel. And then he had a book that he had brought that had like, ⁓ survival knots and everything else in it. And that was another like pound and a half. And I was like, man, we just saved you 10 pounds. in weight just in a shovel and that. But it was a foldable one so I didn't see it outside his bag or I would have already told him that back at one point he had gotten out of the car. speaker-1: Yeah, totally. Yeah, my experiences were like that at the beginning, went backpacking as a kid with my grandpa's same military shovel. The first day kit was like a canvas bag and everything inside it was in like these aluminum tins in there. The backpack was like canvas, like literally canvas. ⁓ And the other backpack that I think my parents took was like one of those 70s ones with the external frame. ⁓ yeah. Maybe it was even eighties. know. Yeah. That one wasn't that bad. ⁓ yeah, my first thrift hike, had a Gregory Diva pack, which weighed, think, six pounds. I had a sleeping bag from the nineties that weighed almost six pounds, took up about half the pack. And a lot of it, yeah, like you're saying, it was knowledge. didn't know a lot. ⁓ I also didn't want to spend the money. was like, I don't know if I'm going to like this. you know, ⁓ let me just go with what I've got. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. And I learned a lot on trail. And actually like the first ultra light person I met was an older lady. Like she was retired and that was kind of a cool intro to ultra light. Cause I think people usually think it's like these cool young guys in their thirties. like, as we get older, ultra light is so important. And even like, if we want to be hiking when we're older, like doing it lighter now is a good strategy. ⁓ so yeah, she told, she'd actually had an Osbury pack. like custom fit for her, because it wasn't that comfortable. But yeah, she was super light and I just learned a lot from her. And I think that's like, as you mentioned too, like learning on trail is kind of the best way to do it. speaker-0: Yeah. Especially when you're, I mean, you're all, all you're doing is walking with someone for hours. You've got a lot of talking to do and you meet a lot of people and then you end up talking. mean, all you talk about is gear, what you've been doing. And then you're like, what are you going to eat? What are we going to eat? What are we going to eat? That's all we talk about. So, well, that's great. ⁓ okay. Well, I mean, I, I'm so fascinated with your bag and your product and stuff like that. And if people are looking, if people are listening and they're looking for. speaker-1: So true. speaker-0: your bag, where can we find your bag? I know you said you are in some stores. I don't know if you have a distributor page or if it's just your website, I'm sure we can order through your website, but how can we find somebody else's gear? speaker-1: Yeah, subbiosisgear.com. ⁓ on Instagram also with Subbiosis Gear. And yeah, on the website, I list all the retailers where we're selling. ⁓ Fingers crossed there'll be a bunch more added in the next few months. ⁓ Garage Grown Gear, as I mentioned, also carries our products. So yeah, super easy to find us. speaker-0: Awesome. Okay, well, let's just go right into the lightning round. So these are just some quick questions to get to know you a little bit more. And we've already heard that you did a lot of through hiking and stuff like that, and you're lucky enough to live in Leadville. So ⁓ I guess my first question I always like to ask people is your favorite national park. speaker-1: ⁓ Well, I feel like I have to say Rocky Mountain National Park because when I was 12, we moved from Michigan to Esses Park and that's where I first got started. We had required hiking every Saturday and we'd hike with this older man from Colorado Mountain Club who would teach us all about the plants and the animals and we'd go to hike to a lake and so on. So ⁓ to be honest, I kind of hated it. when I was 12, you know, like I was growing super fast, body was uncomfortable, growing out of the shoes every two days, you know, and ⁓ yeah, but I'm so grateful for that experience and that knowledge and really appreciating the beauty that was there and still is there. speaker-0: funny how we appreciate it when we're older, but when you're younger, you're like, well, I gotta be outside again, you know? Or like, ⁓ this sucks. It's so hot, you know? And now you're like, I could care less how hot it is. I'm out outside. right. Biggest splurge you've made for your business outside of maybe buying your bags. speaker-1: Yeah, well, I hired a part-time marketing person to help me for a few months. yeah, we're currently on hiatus because business was really slow between December and March. hopefully I'll be able bring her back on soon. that was huge. Yeah. speaker-0: Alright, next is tent, hammock, or cowboy camping. speaker-1: ⁓ Well, it depends on the situation. I've never hammocked, so I can say no to that. I've tested out other people's hammocks, but I don't have one. I love being able to go light enough to cowboy camp. That's amazing. And knowing you're going to have good weather and all of that. I do sleep better in my little cocoon of a tent. So that's my usual preferred choice is a tent. speaker-0: Okay, next is worst trail snack you've ever tried. speaker-1: So when I was on the CDT, I sent myself a box with resupply and it had wipes in it. And I got on trail and I'm like eating the trail mix tastes like wipes. And then the oatmeal for breakfast tasted like wipes. ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ no. ⁓ no. speaker-1: I was like, what are you going to do? You have to eat. So I'm just holding my breath, trying not to inhale while I'm eating. It was rough, That's really rough. speaker-0: ⁓ no. So do you have like PTSD anytime you use a wipe and you can't eat or... speaker-1: Yeah, and even that particular kind of oatmeal is like turns my stomach. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ wow. Yeah. That would be the worst because then you have like what five days of food and then you've got to eat wipes. ⁓ that's gross. ⁓ What's your favorite trail snack? speaker-1: Mm. I'm really boring with that, which is trail mix with a lot of ⁓ &Ms. speaker-0: Yeah, chocolate is the way to go. I'm a chocolate hound. speaker-1: salt and fat you get it all in trail mix. speaker-0: ⁓ If you could collab with any brand, who would it be? speaker-1: Mmm. Oof, oof. Well, there are a few. There's a really cool ski backpack brand here called Raid. I don't know if you've heard of them. I think that could be a really cool collaboration to add our women-specific straps to their packs that are made for all the epic backcountry skiing that people do around here. speaker-0: That's cool. Okay, last thing you Googled related to your business. speaker-1: Stores. Yeah, doing a sales trip out east soon. So Googling outdoor stores on the east coast along the AT. Yeah. speaker-0: Are you gonna be at the trail base? speaker-1: I am, yeah, are you? speaker-0: Fingers crossed. I keep telling everybody I'm gonna be there, so I better be there, but it depends if I get a gig, because I also do a bunch of photography here, and so weekends, and I can't remember. It's a weekday or weekend, I can't remember. speaker-1: It's a weekend, but starts on Friday. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So I might drive up there. I have it on the calendar and it's all booked. So I'm hoping to see everybody there. So that'd be cool. And I guess my last question is what's something you're still learning as a leader? speaker-1: Mm, mm. ⁓ Yeah, well, I mentioned before this kind of self-trust and self-confidence, that's one for sure. And there's a balance between listening to mentors and also leading with confidence. And as you mentioned in the pivot situation, like listening for feedback from other folks and then staying true to yourself and your vision, that's a balance because it's not always clear. Generally in business, there's no right answer. You know, they're just choices and consequences. speaker-0: Yeah. What you said is really good because we, before we got on, were talking about Cocodona and like Rachel, just won overall. She won first place. Right. And then I watched her interview and she was like, I was really down on myself, kind of talking myself down. Like you're out front. Why should you be out front? Like you, you, you're pushing yourself too hard and stuff like that. It's like, but she was like, I trusted in myself that like, no, I got this where other people might be like, ⁓ she's coming out too hard, right? And she might be down on herself, but she's like, okay, I have to trust in what I know myself to do. And even if people are might be telling me to slow down or whatever, I know what I'm capable of. And I know what in the end it's your responsibility. So you know what to do is that's best for you. So that's really speaker-1: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And I loved her line. She said like, why not me? Like, and that's something that I think a lot of women, you know, even if we project confidence or we're doing great stuff, maybe men too, don't, everybody has a little self doubt once in a while, some of us more than others. And especially when you're, you know, like, like she is doing something that no woman has done before. Like no woman has won that race before. And Like in my case, as far as I know, I'm the only woman owned backpack business. Like all the other gear businesses for the big three are all owned by men. there's like, I'm going to do things a little differently and to trust that like different doesn't mean wrong. Like different could be great. Different might mean actual leadership. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's good. That's really good. And she crushed the course record too, I think by like four hours or something. speaker-1: I think all three of the top women broke course records. Amazing. speaker-0: Wild. I feel sad that someone passed away this year on the trail too. So I just heard about it like yesterday and then I was like, man, that's gotta be hard to run that knowing that someone has died on the trail, but she crushed it. So my wife was like, you're not doing 250 miles now. You can do 100, that's fine. But I think the sleep deprivation might get me. Yeah. And hurt me. speaker-1: Well, we'll see you in Leadville next year then. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, Sarah, thank you so much. And thank you for being a part of the show and talking so much and being so open about everything. And everybody, thank you much for listening. We look forward to having you all hear us next week with our amazing guests. And thank you so much, Sarah. It's great talking to you. speaker-1: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Super fun. Bye.