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ToughPigs HQ - Muppet Fandom in 2025 · Muppet Fan Podcasts with ToughPigs.com

• 0:00
  Hey there. Welcome to the Tough Pigs
• 0:01
  Lounge. This is a place where Muppet
• 0:03
  fans have a chat, and that's the whole premise.
• 0:06
  My name is JD Hansel. I'm one of the writers on the
• 0:08
  Tough Pig staff. And joining me is one of my
• 0:11
  editors from the Tough Pig staff, Jared Faircloth.
• 0:14
  Hey, Jared. That's me.
• 0:15
  Hello, JD. Thank you very much for having
• 0:17
  me in your wonderful, wonderful podcast space.
• 0:20
  Oh, thank you, Jared. It is indubitably an honor of
• 0:25
  the highest order to have you in my space.
• 0:28
  Well, I figure I'm usually really mean you on these things,
• 0:30
  so today I'm going to come in with a whole new energy.
• 0:32
  It's a whole new podcast and I'm going to be the world's
• 0:34
  friendliest person. It's already making me super
• 0:38
  uncomfortable, right? Let's turn to one of my other
• 0:42
  Tough Pigs colleagues and friends.
• 0:45
  It's Matthew Soberman. Hey, Matthew.
• 0:47
  Hey just letting everyone know the coffee machine is once again
• 0:51
  putting out chili con carne. I'm not saying I did it, but it
• 0:55
  is an issue that needs rectifying.
• 0:57
  OK. All right.
• 0:58
  We will make Joe deal with it. That said, the chili is good
• 1:03
  today. Oh great.
• 1:05
  And also here. Who's also here?
• 1:09
  JDA. Guest in the Tough Pigs space.
• 1:12
  Not part of the Tough Pigs team, but a good buddy of mine well
• 1:16
  known to Muppet fans all over the web.
• 1:19
  It's my pal Gav. Hey, Gav.
• 1:20
  Hey y'all, I just want to let you know that I'll be accepting
• 1:24
  leftover Halloween candy donations until New Year's.
• 1:26
  That goes double for me. Meanwhile, I have already put on
• 1:29
  my Muppet Christmas Carol shirt. Good.
• 1:32
  Does that mean that we have to listen to Robinson bless us all
• 1:36
  again? Because gotta hate that song.
• 1:38
  Well it's bless us all or when love is gone.
• 1:41
  So take your pick. I'll check when love is gone.
• 1:44
  I agree with Jared. What?
• 1:46
  Yeah, Yeah, there was. A Both of you are are anti bless
• 1:49
  us all. I said what I said when I don't
• 1:52
  don't sing it. Now we have to pay for one.
• 1:54
  Guys, guys, we need, we need to, we need to confuse them.
• 1:56
  Let's sing songs from other Muppet Christmas project.
• 1:59
  It's an. 1. Of us.
• 2:07
  To be getting things started here.
• 2:11
  Pass it on going. You know, I will say I will take
• 2:15
  any of those over the Fall Out Boy cover of It Feels Like
• 2:18
  Christmas, which is a a thing that recently happened and is
• 2:22
  frustrating to me because I think that song should be a
• 2:25
  Christmas standard. Everyone knows it, everyone
• 2:28
  likes it, but we can't get enough people covering it.
• 2:31
  Well, I think this kind of proves maybe what covers don't
• 2:35
  really work for this one. It might be more of a Fall Out
• 2:39
  Boy specific problem and I just want to hear more people give it
• 2:43
  a go. Well, here's the thing.
• 2:45
  The thing about Muppet covers is like this is a bit
• 2:50
  controversial, but I was not really a fan of the Green album.
• 2:53
  We're getting all of the music hot cakes out.
• 2:56
  Right, some tracks are better than others.
• 2:58
  It it was a different time, Gav. Like for those of us who were
• 3:01
  born in 2011, the experience of getting a new thing for about
• 3:10
  Muppets was like, really rare and special at the time.
• 3:14
  In the Kitchen with Cat Cora was very out and available at the
• 3:17
  time. Gen.
• 3:18
  Z loves Angelo. Yeah, I know you're new here in
• 3:23
  the Tough Figs space. We don't talk about Muppets
• 3:26
  Kitchen with Kat Kora. Gab, I'll give you the keys to
• 3:28
  the Secret Lounge where we talk about Muppets Kitchen with Kat
• 3:31
  Kora. I'd appreciate that.
• 3:33
  Yeah, I need one of these. I need a safe space for Muppets
• 3:36
  Kitchen with Kat Kora. We we here in the old down on
• 3:42
  the Land of Oz, we've got an extra track on our On Our Green
• 3:47
  album. Was it Simon Smith and his
• 3:51
  amazing dancing? Bear Smith and the amazing
• 3:52
  Dancing Bear written, sung, I should say, by a very famous
• 3:56
  Australian singer here named Missy Higgins, who is an
• 3:58
  amazing, amazing singer and songwriter.
• 4:01
  If you don't know her stuff, go listen to it.
• 4:03
  She's one of the all time great Australian singers.
• 4:07
  But yeah, we got a cover of that and I don't know why, because I
• 4:10
  don't think like in England they did any sort of I.
• 4:13
  Mean do you have amazing dancing bears in Australia?
• 4:17
  We call them amazing dancing koalas here.
• 4:20
  I think it would be more marketable to include Mary
• 4:23
  Schneider as an artist on the Green Album.
• 4:26
  For those who don't know who Mary Schneider is, she's known
• 4:29
  as Australia's Queen of Yodeling.
• 4:32
  Oh yeah. Yes, she is a master at the
• 4:35
  classic Swiss Alpine style and is best known for yodeling the
• 4:38
  works of various standards by many classic composers.
• 4:41
  And she's 93 years old. Do you know, you said that and I
• 4:45
  was like, I have no idea who you're talking about, Gav.
• 4:48
  And then I've just looked her up and like, Oh yeah, I recognize
• 4:49
  it. So we'll keep an eye out for a
• 4:55
  green album to Oops. All good, good.
• 5:00
  So gang, tell me, are there any upcoming Muppet or Henson things
• 5:06
  that you're looking forward to? Oh yes, all one of them.
• 5:12
  Oh, Oh yeah. I'm.
• 5:14
  Tired. My goodness.
• 5:15
  Well. Listen, two things.
• 5:19
  Yeah, I was going to say like someone could theoretically say
• 5:21
  the Fraggle Rock Holiday Special.
• 5:24
  All right, Well, that wasn't. What anyone was going to say?
• 5:26
  But it's possible. That's the thing that's
• 5:28
  technically coming. I am looking for, granted, I
• 5:31
  won't get to go on it for a very, very, very, very long time
• 5:35
  because I your country's in shambles and two, it's very
• 5:38
  expensive for me to get there. But I am looking forward to
• 5:41
  seeing how the rock and roller coaster turns out.
• 5:45
  I am looking forward to looking at the building, walking through
• 5:52
  the queue line and then asking for the chicken door.
• 5:58
  Yeah, absolutely. Fair enough.
• 6:00
  Of course, this being a Muppet roller coaster, it will be
• 6:02
  populated with actual chickens. That's my hope.
• 6:06
  I hope they call it the Camilla the chicken door.
• 6:08
  But if there's if we actually get a proper Muppet gift shop
• 6:11
  out of this, it will have all been worth it.
• 6:13
  I'd love a. Proper we had a proper Muppet
• 6:16
  gift shop and then look what? Happened, I know, but that's The
• 6:19
  thing is, listen, a Muppet gift shop has a natural cycle of
• 6:24
  expanding and collapsing. We mostly experienced the
• 6:28
  collapse, but what if we could get the the start of the next
• 6:32
  wave again? Yes, of course it'll eventually
• 6:35
  be slowly taken over by Elsa or whatever.
• 6:39
  But there might be a brief moment where the Muppet gift
• 6:43
  shop is an actual Muppet gift shop, and I can buy a nice
• 6:46
  Muppet thing at a very expensive price, in a far more expensive
• 6:52
  place in a in a state that's falling apart, in a country
• 6:54
  that's falling apart. I would argue it's probably more
• 6:57
  marketable now than it was when Muppet Vision literally came
• 7:01
  out. Yeah, I think so.
• 7:03
  I think that there is a market for Muppet merchandise.
• 7:06
  Now I I can back this up with a story.
• 7:08
  OK, I was at I was in that shambles of a state.
• 7:13
  I was at Disney World for Destination D23.
• 7:17
  When was this the end of August? OK cool.
• 7:20
  So Mickey's of Glendale, which is the in house merchandise arm
• 7:25
  of Walt Disney Imagineering. They don't do stuff for the
• 7:28
  parks. That's a a different merch arm
• 7:30
  all together, but they do stuff for Imagineering and to be sold
• 7:34
  at exclusive events like the 23 Expo and Destination D23 as well
• 7:41
  as you know, sales at their campus in Glendale, CA.
• 7:45
  But what they did have was a Muppet 70th Anniversary
• 7:50
  collection. It was just racks and racks of
• 7:53
  Muppet Murphet apparel, Muppet collectibles.
• 7:58
  I got there mid afternoon so like halfway through the day on
• 8:04
  the first day, which was just for convention attendees on the.
• 8:07
  First day, OK, yes. And that place was picked over
• 8:11
  pretty well. And someone there, you know,
• 8:15
  because they knew I had definitely had an interest in
• 8:17
  Muppets, said we are so sorry we grossly underestimated how much
• 8:24
  demand there would be for Muppet merchandise.
• 8:27
  We are going to take this back to our supervisors because it's
• 8:31
  clear somebody cares about The Muppets.
• 8:34
  Wow. And here's the thing though, I
• 8:37
  can't blame them because not so many years ago I would have
• 8:42
  thought, yeah, I don't know how well is this stuff going to
• 8:44
  sell? This is just for us weirdos.
• 8:46
  But now it feels like there are more of us weirdos.
• 8:49
  Am I wrong for feeling like there are more of us weirdos?
• 8:52
  The weirdos with money are are are more plentiful.
• 8:55
  That's absolutely true. I think so.
• 8:58
  Looking at those Muppet, the capsule that came out, the Mana,
• 9:01
  Mana 1, and I know there's a couple more that it will be
• 9:03
  coming out at some stage. I don't know when, but they are
• 9:07
  coming. I, I know that the like the mana
• 9:11
  mana one for example, was very, very limited edition.
• 9:15
  I don't know if it was ever reported how many they had of
• 9:18
  each thing, so I don't want to say just in case I'm not
• 9:21
  supposed to tell anybody, but it was there.
• 9:23
  If anybody got the pin, it would be on the back of the pin.
• 9:27
  That would tell us at least how many pins.
• 9:30
  Because that is a limited edition, the edition size should
• 9:33
  be on the back. OK, so just in case, I'm not
• 9:36
  going to say anything, but I know it was very, very limited.
• 9:38
  And I had spoken with Danny Iglesias from Upward Studio, who
• 9:42
  had designed all this stuff, and she was saying that it was
• 9:46
  limited edition because the people basically making this
• 9:50
  stuff, all the people in Disney's marketing, whatever it
• 9:54
  might be, were like, yeah, this stuff won't sell.
• 9:57
  Like, we don't think this stuff's going to sell very well.
• 10:00
  And she's like, I think you're underestimating just how much
• 10:03
  this is going to go and how quickly it's going to go.
• 10:05
  And they're like, we'll see how we go.
• 10:07
  I spoke to her after the Manamana stuff came out because,
• 10:10
  yes, there was a couple of things left, but 99% of it had
• 10:13
  gone within the first few hours of that whole thing happening.
• 10:16
  Wow. And I am under the impression
• 10:19
  that they have upped the number for the next couple of capsules
• 10:23
  based on that. So I think they're now starting
• 10:25
  to go, you know, between these capsules and Matthew, that D23
• 10:29
  event, I think they're starting to now go, oh, oh, people
• 10:34
  actually want this stuff. OK, maybe we naturally need to
• 10:37
  start thinking about this a little bit more.
• 10:39
  I don't know whether or not that means we'll get some more
• 10:41
  limited edition stuff or whether or not we'll actually start
• 10:43
  getting more stuff in general. I also think something that's
• 10:48
  good about the current people at Muppet Studio is that what
• 10:52
  they're doing when it comes to this merchandise is they're not
• 10:54
  just slapping on the same old Clipper part that we've had for
• 10:58
  the same 20 years. Swedish chefs smoking a joint.
• 11:03
  Correct. They're actually, it's one of
• 11:05
  their all time favourites. It's they're actually going to
• 11:08
  the effort to make brand new stuff that will actually look
• 11:12
  new and feel new and will finally, and it's just, it's
• 11:16
  just new stuff rather than that same picture of Kermit the Frog
• 11:19
  we've always got slapped on a T-shirt.
• 11:21
  Oh, the one that's currently on the the cover of whatever
• 11:24
  magazine it is that's in all the grocery stores.
• 11:27
  Time magazine. Yeah, it's the same.
• 11:29
  Just picture of Kermit, same picture of Fozzie.
• 11:32
  Yeah, but just the same illustrations as well.
• 11:34
  Like it's always that stuff that obviously got made in, you know,
• 11:37
  2005 and has never changed, whereas, you know, now they're
• 11:40
  actually making an effort to change it.
• 11:42
  So I'm hoping we see more and more new stuff and that stuff
• 11:45
  will fly off the shelves, meaning we'll just keep getting
• 11:47
  more and more of it. Yeah, if they keep making
• 11:50
  beautifully designed stuff, I think we'll get more.
• 11:53
  I think people will buy it and that will mean we'll get more.
• 11:56
  That's what. We will not rest until there is
• 11:58
  a screaming goat capsule collection.
• 12:01
  Oh, just you wait. What does that mean, Gav?
• 12:06
  Do you? Confidence.
• 12:08
  I'm confidence something like that's going to come out.
• 12:13
  Maybe not that character specifically, but yeah, I I
• 12:18
  think it looks good for Muppet merch.
• 12:20
  It's weird, I'm realizing now why I have not done Muppet
• 12:24
  podcasts as much lately. It's just that it does feel kind
• 12:28
  of weird to talk about hoping that the state of Muppet merch
• 12:33
  is getting better when I need the state I'm in to get better.
• 12:38
  Like when there's just so much more important stuff.
• 12:40
  It's, I don't know what to where to go with this point.
• 12:42
  It's just, it's a weird thing to be like, oh, right, getting back
• 12:45
  into the headspace of trying to care about Muppet merch.
• 12:49
  But like, I do like, I like when it looks good, like when the
• 12:52
  company actually tries to make something that's lovely for us.
• 12:56
  It's really great. I've been enjoying the Sesame
• 12:59
  Street figures by. Super 7.
• 13:03
  Yeah, Super 7. Thank you.
• 13:06
  Just cause like they bothered to make a Mr. Hooper.
• 13:09
  That's what I've been wanting. I've been wanting a Mr. I've
• 13:11
  been wanting the the human cast from the 70s 'cause that's such
• 13:14
  a big part of the texture of the show.
• 13:16
  Those were stars of the show and I I love the Mr. Hooper.
• 13:20
  I have not bought it yet, but I'm going to get it very soon.
• 13:22
  I think Sesame and Mr. Trick a little bit by not doing more
• 13:27
  stuff for the adult fans, you know, with Sesame being such a
• 13:31
  thing that's, you know, like it's a public like, you know,
• 13:34
  Sesame Workshop being a non for profit.
• 13:38
  Did they make their money by, you know, a lot of their money
• 13:41
  by merch, right. Like, and the kids aren't like
• 13:44
  that. You can only buy so many Elmo
• 13:46
  dolls for your, you know, 2 year old and no one wants it to be.
• 13:50
  So why don't they just push that stuff?
• 13:54
  Yeah, towards the adults like that Mister Hooper figure.
• 13:56
  And, you know, we're the people who are going to be buying these
• 13:59
  things. So market more towards us
• 14:01
  people. And you'll find you'll probably
• 14:04
  have enough money that you don't have to worry about a lot of
• 14:06
  that, you know, a Netflix deal. You know, so I've been thinking
• 14:09
  about this lately, how physical stuff feels like a bigger and
• 14:14
  bigger part of the Muppet fan community now than it did just a
• 14:17
  couple of years ago. As it feels like everything in
• 14:21
  Muppet fandom apart from how we consume the media itself, is
• 14:25
  moving more towards the physical and the visual.
• 14:29
  When for a long time it felt like the Muppet fan community
• 14:33
  revolved around text and audio. And it's just sort of like a lot
• 14:38
  of parallel things happening at once that are part of this, and
• 14:41
  the merch is part of this, and things like D23 conventions are
• 14:46
  all part of this. Other fan communities always had
• 14:50
  conventions and collections of merch pretty central to them, I
• 14:54
  think because there was enough convention representation for
• 14:58
  that. There was enough merch for that
• 15:01
  for something like a Star Trek or a Star Wars or comic books or
• 15:05
  whatever. And it always felt to me like
• 15:08
  Muppets just didn't get much love in the convention space or
• 15:12
  the related action figure and merch space.
• 15:16
  And so it's kind of felt like we've been behind there.
• 15:19
  But I've had really good websites with really good
• 15:21
  writing, making really good podcasts.
• 15:24
  And now in recent years, like, yeah, we'll see about this one.
• 15:28
  But you know, in in recent years, I think since this year
• 15:32
  specifically since the fall of a certain account that didn't fall
• 15:37
  out of existence to quite the extent to which I had hoped it
• 15:40
  would, but still, that fell pretty significantly out of the
• 15:43
  ashes of that, a new Muppet fandom ecosystem sprung up on
• 15:49
  Instagram. And I think because it's on
• 15:51
  Instagram, a lot more revolves around visual things, which is
• 15:57
  going to be places that people can go and things that people
• 16:01
  can collect and things people can make, costumes that people
• 16:05
  can put together, outfits like that.
• 16:06
  Kind of like it's a mix of buying things, going to places
• 16:09
  and crafting things and making videos and stuff.
• 16:13
  And that's been a really interesting shift.
• 16:15
  That is, well, I have complicated feelings about it.
• 16:20
  It's not a bad thing, but it is a thing.
• 16:22
  And I was wondering how everyone else is feeling about it.
• 16:25
  Well, I. I'm wondering why your feelings
• 16:27
  are complicated because I think the whole scenario from last
• 16:30
  fall kind of like like it made it a little more like open
• 16:34
  sourced in a way. It's not a race to see how like
• 16:38
  who gets the most engagement out of it and are you?
• 16:43
  Sure. No, but OK.
• 16:47
  Well, you know what I mean. Like that because that is the
• 16:49
  kind of thing that Instagram generally incentivizes.
• 16:51
  But usually, like historically, it felt like there was a
• 16:54
  monopoly on sharing fun clips and photos of Muppets.
• 16:58
  Well that's the thing, it was a monopoly before, but like now it
• 17:02
  feels like at least a little more like expansive in
• 17:05
  community, at least in that type of content.
• 17:08
  Yeah. I'll be a little more organic.
• 17:10
  Yeah. I don't know.
• 17:11
  I'm. I'm not on Instagram.
• 17:13
  What I really like about that fan community on Instagram now,
• 17:16
  and it's something that I've only really myself recognized in
• 17:19
  the last couple of months. Like I've, you know, I had no
• 17:22
  idea how these people are out here, but now due to like, you
• 17:25
  know, that Muppet Family feud that we did a few weeks ago and
• 17:28
  all that sort of thing. Oh yeah, that was cool.
• 17:31
  I'm starting to get more familiar with these people and
• 17:34
  what I'm really amazed by is the creativity of these.
• 17:38
  Accounts. Oh yeah, it's.
• 17:40
  You know, you look at someone like Rabbit Rhett is his name on
• 17:44
  Instagram, his post he does for the 70 year every week.
• 17:49
  Like he goes to so much effort to just like create these
• 17:53
  beautiful like carousel of photos for these for these
• 17:58
  characters every week. And then you've got, you know,
• 18:01
  people crocheting Muppets and you've got people dressing up
• 18:04
  and cosplaying as Muppets and you're getting this whole
• 18:06
  creativity thing. And I think in the, you know,
• 18:11
  from the ashes of the account that sort of, well, you know, I
• 18:15
  guess that fire that burned for a few weeks last last year, out
• 18:20
  of those ashes have arisen all these new accounts and a whole
• 18:25
  new community that I think have just come closer together.
• 18:28
  And I'm really, really, that was when I left Twitter.
• 18:35
  I, I missed that thing because I, I found a new community on
• 18:39
  Twitter. Yeah.
• 18:40
  And I sort of, I have missed that for the last couple of
• 18:42
  years that I've not been on there.
• 18:43
  And I feel like we've found that again on Instagram.
• 18:46
  And like, I'm quite happy that I've been including to it
• 18:51
  because a lot of these kids have known each other for a few years
• 18:54
  and I've only just sort of popped in like the oh, good day,
• 18:56
  guys. I'm the I'm the old fuddy Duddy
• 18:59
  who has that website. Uncle Jared Fairclough.
• 19:02
  And then he starts totally. Uncle.
• 19:07
  But only on the Australian Instagram.
• 19:13
  Oh boy. So yes, I'm, I'm really, I'm
• 19:17
  excited to see what that sort of fan community, how that
• 19:21
  continues to evolve and grow. If I may add, I kind of feel
• 19:26
  like it's my favorite, if not the best iteration of the Muppet
• 19:33
  fan community as of yet. And that might seem
• 19:36
  controversial, but like, based off of what I know and what I
• 19:40
  have personally seen, they're not afraid to include people
• 19:43
  like they're very inclusive and especially like to people who
• 19:48
  they've never met before, people who have been in the Muppet fan
• 19:53
  community for years, like 200 years, like Jared.
• 19:58
  And, you know, they invite them in.
• 20:01
  I don't know if anybody was at the Henson birthday event I was
• 20:06
  going. To say, Gav, you absolutely know
• 20:08
  if anybody was at that event, you know?
• 20:10
  Yes, no, I'm. I'm being nonchalant about it
• 20:13
  though. Oh.
• 20:13
  OK, well, la di da. Some of you, as a matter of
• 20:20
  fact, all of you were at the wait, no.
• 20:24
  Gav Backpedal. Backpedal.
• 20:27
  You hear that, Jared? I.
• 20:28
  Was there all of you were at the Henson birthday event at the
• 20:31
  Museum of the Moving image not long ago.
• 20:35
  And they were all there and they were a group and they were so
• 20:40
  kind because look, like, I remember first time I saw them,
• 20:46
  they were all interacting with each other and I was very shy,
• 20:49
  you know, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is a group of
• 20:51
  friends. Like I'm, you know, when you see
• 20:53
  a group of friends talking to each other, they're probably
• 20:56
  just going to keep to themselves.
• 20:57
  No, they're so nice and like it's and so easy to get along
• 21:03
  with and so fun and like they're very colorful in their
• 21:09
  personalities. And I think they very cool.
• 21:16
  I don't know how to. Have you run out of adjectives
• 21:18
  I? Have like a yeah.
• 21:20
  But I think. Approachable.
• 21:22
  Yes. But I think that that I haven't
• 21:24
  really gotten to know folks in those circles yet.
• 21:26
  And I don't know how to because I am not a bubbly person and I
• 21:29
  also pretty much only exist in audio and text formats.
• 21:33
  That is the obstacle for me. But sometimes I exist in person.
• 21:36
  And now there are, it seems, so many in person things that are
• 21:40
  more central to how the fan community works, like the Henson
• 21:43
  weekend or a lot of those same people were at the closing of
• 21:47
  Muppet Vision 3D, which turned out to be a huge event, just
• 21:52
  colossal, where the lines to get into the theater.
• 21:57
  We're going way into the Galaxy's Edge Star Wars area.
• 22:03
  And I would argue that that was like a direct cause of the
• 22:05
  Muppet Graham community because they really advertised that
• 22:09
  whole event. What?
• 22:11
  Or was it caused by the Muppet Graham community?
• 22:15
  Is that what I? Is that not what I said?
• 22:17
  No. That's the opposite of what you
• 22:18
  said, but I know what you mean. I do think that there like
• 22:20
  there's a relationship there of that being one of the things
• 22:23
  that fueled it. And it seems like conventions
• 22:25
  are a part of it too, which is I guess part of where the
• 22:28
  complicated feelings come in is who gets featured as a major
• 22:34
  Muppet person may to some degree have to do with who you can get
• 22:38
  a picture with at conventions, which has some consequences that
• 22:42
  may be outside the scope of what we can talk about on this
• 22:44
  podcast. That's sort of where it's all
• 22:46
  shifting to is physical appearances of Muppets in
• 22:50
  person, appearances of Muppets, Kermit the Frog showing up to do
• 22:54
  a commencement speech at the University of Maryland and
• 22:56
  things like that. Are are now like the content
• 23:00
  that's on the Muppet side and also on the Muppet fan side.
• 23:03
  It's all physical and visual, which then creates a problem
• 23:07
  because they can't physically be everywhere but neither Muppet
• 23:11
  fan events nor The Muppets themselves.
• 23:13
  And you can only hold so many fan events before it starts to
• 23:17
  saturate the market. Maybe so there's also like a
• 23:22
  question of space as these things get bigger.
• 23:25
  Like the the New York weekend, it started to feel pretty darn
• 23:30
  crowded at Pigs Beach. Like it's what I kept hearing is
• 23:35
  it's only going to get bigger. Like that event was loud.
• 23:39
  It was there were so many people that it was very, very difficult
• 23:43
  for me personally to feel like I was totally a part of things
• 23:45
  because it's like, how do I just have a conversation with someone
• 23:48
  here with all that's going on? Well I think that also has to do
• 23:51
  with with the room they rented out, not necessarily Pig Beach
• 23:55
  because Big Beach, for those who don't know, is a rather large
• 23:59
  venue with lots of spaces. True.
• 24:03
  I think it was the fact that they picked a private room with
• 24:07
  musical accompaniment. Either the karaoke on Saturday
• 24:11
  or the live band on Sunday. Right.
• 24:14
  It it did, I will I will agree that it did feel more like a
• 24:21
  more crowded affair. Yeah.
• 24:24
  But you know you. You find your people and you
• 24:26
  hang out with them. This is true.
• 24:28
  This is true. And I did.
• 24:29
  I had a lot of good conversations with a lot of cool
• 24:30
  people, but at a certain point, I guess it's like, if it's going
• 24:35
  to keep getting bigger and bigger, then I'm just like, when
• 24:38
  can we have Muppet Fest? When can we have a Muppet
• 24:40
  Convention 'cause it it's starting.
• 24:42
  To see like shines the triple sun.
• 24:46
  Yeah, yeah, I know. But that's The thing is like we
• 24:48
  used to have a physical era of Muppets before, before the
• 24:51
  forums where if you wanted to be connected to other Muppet fans,
• 24:55
  you got a fanzine and then there what you know, and then there
• 24:58
  was a Muppet fest. And that kind of like fades out
• 25:01
  that whole era and fades in the era where we're all connected on
• 25:05
  the Internet. Or that's kind of what it feels
• 25:06
  like to me as someone who wasn't really there for that moment.
• 25:10
  But like, are we starting to have enough of a fan community
• 25:13
  infrastructure that The Muppets could officially hold a just a
• 25:17
  Muppet specific event for fans to get together and enough
• 25:20
  people would show up? I think that's certainly
• 25:24
  possible. Obviously, Muppet Fest came at a
• 25:29
  time where one company controlled everything, right?
• 25:32
  I mean, at that point, I believe they may have.
• 25:35
  Oh no, 2001. By that point, I believe Sesame
• 25:39
  Workshop had gotten full rights to the Sesame Street characters.
• 25:44
  But Elmo was still in that show that they did a Muppet fast.
• 25:47
  And it's clear that the entities still get along to a degree.
• 25:51
  That's why we got that Jim Henson birthday video a couple
• 25:54
  years ago with Oscar Gobo and Kermit.
• 25:59
  The three Jim Henson characters. The three characters that you
• 26:02
  think of when you think of Jim Henson and you want to celebrate
• 26:04
  his birthday. You think of Kermit, you think
• 26:06
  of Gobo, you think of Oscar the Grouch.
• 26:09
  OK. Well, Oscar was a questionable
• 26:11
  pick, but. Oscar was I.
• 26:13
  Think it was a matter of availability.
• 26:15
  I have I I don't know it feels it feels too late to speculate
• 26:20
  on it now. It was over a year ago.
• 26:22
  I have no idea. I was hoping it would be an
• 26:24
  annual thing and there would be a new one for this year with
• 26:27
  Ralph the dog, Slimy and 3rd Doozer on the left.
• 26:33
  You know, it's clear that they work together to a degree, but
• 26:39
  at the same point, they each have their own interests and
• 26:42
  prerogatives. Right, Yes, I believe that it's
• 26:46
  quite important to all three of them to have a relationship with
• 26:50
  each other. I mean, there's just too much
• 26:53
  intertwined. That is correct.
• 26:56
  There's too much intertwined and you know you can't think of 1
• 26:59
  without the other. Really, at the end of the day,
• 27:02
  they are so intertwined. So I but as, yeah, as you said,
• 27:07
  Matthew, because they all have their own interests.
• 27:08
  They all have their own way of doing things that I think it.
• 27:13
  I think it would take a 1/4 a fourth entity like the Museum of
• 27:19
  the moving image to bring them all together and that way it's
• 27:22
  not anybody any of the three's event, but they can all
• 27:26
  contribute to. It and I also genuinely think,
• 27:31
  why can't we do it? I've had the thought many, many
• 27:34
  times. Joe and I have had long
• 27:36
  conversations about can't we do something like this?
• 27:40
  It's just the money side of things really is the problem.
• 27:43
  We're going to need a whole lot of people to buy way more
• 27:47
  Manhattan Melodies T-shirts. That's exactly right.
• 27:50
  So I, you know, listening to you guys talk about the gym, Henson
• 27:53
  Weekend, obviously I wasn't there.
• 27:54
  The three of you were I, you know, follow along by looking
• 27:59
  at, you know, some of you guys were posting stuff in the
• 28:02
  Discord. I know Matthew, you posted a lot
• 28:05
  of photos in our just tough big staff Discord.
• 28:09
  I was looking at people's stories on Instagram and
• 28:12
  whatever it might have been. And this was the first year,
• 28:16
  like watching it over the last few years that I did think,
• 28:19
  well, this is almost getting out of hand a little bit.
• 28:21
  Like more and more people are coming to these things.
• 28:23
  They're not out of hand in necessarily a bad way.
• 28:26
  But like, I understand you, JD saying like, you know, it almost
• 28:30
  felt a little overwhelming and like there were almost too many
• 28:32
  people there and you didn't like you almost couldn't settle in.
• 28:36
  I was completely overwhelmed. I was completely overwhelmed.
• 28:41
  That said, I do think the logistics of spreading it out
• 28:45
  over 2 days made it slightly less overwhelming than it was on
• 28:49
  the one day. Yeah.
• 28:51
  Because this year I think the logistics worked way better by
• 28:55
  having The Walking tour on Saturday so that no one had to
• 28:58
  miss anything happening on Sunday.
• 29:01
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 29:02
  That was very, very helpful, but.
• 29:03
  Yeah, so, so looking at it, I do think I think there is
• 29:09
  definitely a world and I don't think it's far off where we
• 29:12
  could have something like another Muppet fest.
• 29:14
  I just think, as you said, a fourth entity is going to have
• 29:17
  to be the one to bring them together.
• 29:19
  And I don't see why that can't be us.
• 29:23
  It's just the logistics of it happening.
• 29:25
  I don't quite know. I.
• 29:27
  Almost. Need and money.
• 29:29
  Mostly the money. Mostly the money.
• 29:31
  So Gab, how much are you going to donate?
• 29:35
  Well, I'll have to scrounge up some things for my couch, but I
• 29:38
  think I can make a good amount. I mean I can hawk paws tool
• 29:41
  chest. Well, a paw would have.
• 29:45
  So I think that's OK. I feel like to a degree the 4th
• 29:50
  entity is in theory the Jim Henson legacy like that has
• 29:53
  functioned as the fourth leg, the 4th entity that can
• 29:56
  negotiate stuff, like stuff with the Museum of the Moving Image
• 29:59
  with those three companies. Retrospectacal in New Zealand.
• 30:04
  And so I think instead of having Muppet Fest, it's time for Craig
• 30:11
  Shemfest, where somehow Craig and the rest of the Jim Henson
• 30:16
  legacy put together a whole convention with panels on all of
• 30:22
  the Henson and Muppet things. I mean, to be fair, that kind of
• 30:26
  is what the Henson weekend is. A lot of it is moving image, but
• 30:30
  it's also a lot of the legacy. It's true.
• 30:32
  And like, it's cool that there was trivia, there was a
• 30:35
  screening. Like there were so many
• 30:36
  different ways to interact with the rest of the fan community
• 30:40
  and to celebrate one's love of Jim Henson and The Muppets all
• 30:43
  in one thing. And I think that is a big part
• 30:46
  of what I enjoyed about it so much.
• 30:48
  Getting to watch a screening that bounced around from
• 30:51
  property to property, regardless of company, was lovely.
• 30:56
  I mean, for context, for those who don't know, there was a
• 30:58
  screening of 70 moments from 70 years or something like that,
• 31:02
  like the 70 highlights that had been voted on by you, the fans.
• 31:05
  My gosh, seeing all that stuff with an audience was really
• 31:08
  great to just remember like, Oh yeah, right.
• 31:10
  This is funny. Like, it's it's lost on me now.
• 31:13
  But then I like it was funny on new like they Good Grief, The
• 31:18
  Comedian's a Bear became funny again for the first time for me
• 31:21
  in a very long time just because I was with a room that was
• 31:24
  feeling it. And I guess this is where I want
• 31:27
  to bring it to you, Jared. How do you feel about all of
• 31:30
  this stuff happening in a place where you aren't, and how that
• 31:34
  is a part of this shift towards the physical and the visual?
• 31:38
  So genuinely, hand on heart, it has.
• 31:44
  This was the first year that actually bothered me that I
• 31:47
  wasn't there. This year was the first year
• 31:50
  that I felt like I was missing out.
• 31:53
  You know, I've missed out on, I've missed out on things
• 31:57
  before. Like, you know, the live shows,
• 32:00
  not the O2. Great moments in American
• 32:03
  history. You missed out on that.
• 32:05
  I'm, I'm I Yeah, I'm. I'm oddly OK with that one.
• 32:08
  OK. I had for the like, Muppets
• 32:11
  Hollywood Bowl show. I had my ticket organized.
• 32:15
  Really, I just had to press a button because I got a tax
• 32:18
  return, a very good tax return, but I would have had to have
• 32:22
  left like 2 hours later to go to the airport.
• 32:25
  I was just going to do a whirlwind trip.
• 32:26
  I didn't know I'm doing it. Wait, Jared, you realize I think
• 32:30
  that was a very good idea because had you done that, they
• 32:32
  would have cancelled the show while you were on the airplane.
• 32:35
  Not true. That is an old reference that a
• 32:38
  lot of people won't understand. It's worth it to me.
• 32:41
  It's worth it. It's still so funny to me and
• 32:43
  also so sad. OK, very quick, very quick
• 32:46
  aside. I flew to Disneyland in 2014 and
• 32:49
  while I was on the plane, they closed Muppet Vision at
• 32:51
  Disneyland. I landed, I landed and found out
• 32:54
  that it was no longer there. Now I have seen it.
• 32:56
  I saw it in 2010. But anyway, that's not the
• 32:59
  point. The point is I have missed
• 33:01
  things before, but this was the first year that like like I
• 33:04
  said, everyone was together and I felt like I should be there
• 33:08
  and so and like, and I'd love to come.
• 33:12
  I just it's very expensive for me to fly halfway around the
• 33:15
  world, right which? Is why I say this fandom could
• 33:17
  stand to do more events spread out.
• 33:20
  Because really, it's a matter, you know, the fandom is not
• 33:24
  necessarily exclusive to Who can afford to come to New York City
• 33:27
  for a weekend? Correct.
• 33:30
  And so, you know, the plan is I will eventually hopefully get
• 33:34
  there for one of these weekends. When that happens, I don't know.
• 33:37
  We do hope to see you. And that's why thank you.
• 33:40
  And that's why I enjoy doing these, like, podcasts like this,
• 33:44
  because I actually get that time to talk to you guys, like, you
• 33:47
  know, yes, OK, Matthew and JDI talk to you guys fairly often
• 33:50
  with the Discord and stuff. But Gav, you and I haven't
• 33:53
  spoken in a long time. Just the two of us.
• 33:54
  It's true. And so like I'm, and that's why
• 33:58
  I do like that Muppet Family Feud event a couple of weeks ago
• 34:01
  because that way I actually got to interact with people.
• 34:04
  That's why I like the Internet side of things and like the
• 34:08
  Muppet Graham side of things, because I'm actually getting
• 34:11
  that interaction that I'm sort of missing out on a lot of the
• 34:14
  other time. Right.
• 34:15
  But I think that as fandom moves more towards, you want to see
• 34:21
  the latest Muppet thing. Well, it's a show that's on
• 34:24
  Broadway. You want to see the the big
• 34:26
  Muppet event that all the fans are gathering for, it's in Walt
• 34:29
  Disney World. Like as that happens, then there
• 34:32
  are certain parts of it that are very pricey.
• 34:35
  And even as it moves towards visual stuff on Instagram, then
• 34:41
  the people who are going to get the most attention will often be
• 34:44
  the people who have the time or the resources to make stuff that
• 34:48
  is not for, you know, not how they're making their living or
• 34:53
  who have the time and the money to travel to places, who have
• 34:58
  the money to collect things. Those sorts of things become a
• 35:01
  bigger factor in the fan community.
• 35:03
  Whereas the fan community that I latched onto on Twitter was a
• 35:08
  lot of people who had no money in many cases still don't.
• 35:12
  And nevertheless, we're all kind of equally part of things
• 35:17
  because they just had to write a tweet or join a Twitter space.
• 35:20
  And again, but this is not me railing against anybody.
• 35:24
  You know, by no means I have no objections to what anyone's
• 35:28
  doing. Everyone should be expressing
• 35:29
  their fandom in all these different ways.
• 35:31
  But it is something I think about like, oh, there is like a
• 35:33
  slight economic shift in the fan community that happens as the
• 35:37
  medium of it changes. Does that make sense?
• 35:39
  It's very true, yes. I would argue like the the the
• 35:44
  online events, like the Family Feud thing is kind of what
• 35:46
  bridges that though, because it's something that's accessible
• 35:49
  for everybody. And I also think, especially as
• 35:54
  we are very much a grassroots fandom, there's nothing stopping
• 35:59
  people from like, just say, hey, I'm in this area, want to get
• 36:04
  together and just talk about Muppets.
• 36:07
  I think that there's a great potential in that.
• 36:11
  Yeah, I should say there is a community in Australia.
• 36:14
  Like there are a couple of people here who I have met
• 36:17
  because of The Muppets and I'm friends with because of The
• 36:19
  Muppets and because of the fandom and because of tough pigs
• 36:22
  and Muppet mindset and all those sorts of things.
• 36:25
  And you know, even the people overseas, like, you know, when
• 36:28
  that capsule came out and I know with the next ones and stuff
• 36:31
  that are going to come out, they are US only.
• 36:34
  And I have had people in the States go if you want to have it
• 36:38
  sent to my house and then I will ship it to you, do that,
• 36:42
  whatever it is. So people are making those sort
• 36:47
  of making accommodations for the fact that I'm not necessarily
• 36:50
  around. Yeah.
• 36:53
  It's just, like I said, it's just seeing photos of everyone
• 36:56
  together. Like, it just reminds me that,
• 36:58
  like, you know, I run a website with Joe and Ryan.
• 37:01
  I have never shared physical space with either of those two
• 37:05
  men. I have never once looked them in
• 37:07
  the eye except. Over I have I.
• 37:10
  Mean. It it's nice, but it yeah,
• 37:13
  nothing to write home about. Yeah, I'm I'm glad.
• 37:17
  I'm glad the Internet exists. And I think if the Internet went
• 37:20
  away, yeah, I'd be, I'd be very sad to lose a lot of people.
• 37:24
  I would be terribly, terribly sad if the Internet went away,
• 37:27
  which is why I am so sad that it's crumbling as much as it is.
• 37:31
  And then that in turn makes me more thankful for the in person
• 37:34
  things. Weirdly, it's strange.
• 37:36
  I I keep trying to steer this episode towards the new Muppet
• 37:39
  show because it feels like that's the thing.
• 37:41
  But also, I will say, at the New York birthday, Henson birthday
• 37:45
  weekend thing, that was another time when I kept thinking we
• 37:49
  were all going to talk about, oh, what do you think's going to
• 37:51
  happen on the new Muppet Show? And it was weirdly not a big
• 37:53
  topic of conversation. Like, it came up a little every
• 37:56
  now and again. But maybe because we know so
• 37:59
  little, people don't seem nearly as jazzed about that as they are
• 38:03
  about fan things. There's not a lot to say about
• 38:05
  it. I I think people will be jazzed.
• 38:08
  It's just all we know is that it's happening and Gap, there's
• 38:11
  a new gaffer. There's a new gaff.
• 38:14
  No, there's only ever going to be 1 gap, let's get that
• 38:16
  straight. OK?
• 38:17
  I am the only gap ever. I also think Muppet fans have
• 38:21
  kind of learned to like, hold their tongue until things
• 38:24
  actually come out just to not be disappointed.
• 38:28
  Yeah, don't get your hopes up. Never get your hopes up.
• 38:30
  Which is tough because like, in in a way, it feels like we need
• 38:33
  to be talking about this constantly to make sure
• 38:35
  absolutely everybody on earth knows to watch the new Muppet
• 38:38
  Show, because we kind of need this one to work.
• 38:39
  Yeah, I think, I think as well like it.
• 38:42
  And that's sometimes with the Tough Pigs discord, like, you
• 38:45
  know, we have over 1100 people on there now.
• 38:48
  Sometimes I'll just take a quick look and I'll see people talking
• 38:52
  about the new Muppet Show going, oh, I can't wait until you know,
• 38:55
  this is going to happen. And I hope that character gets
• 38:57
  their own sketch. And I hope this happens.
• 38:58
  And it's like, oh, kiddos, yeah, Oh, kiddos.
• 39:03
  Oh, come on guys. Like honey?
• 39:05
  Yeah, that's very much what it feels like.
• 39:07
  It's like, oh, buddy, just just just wait.
• 39:11
  Just wait and see because you know, I have no doubt it will be
• 39:15
  good and I will enjoy it and I'll have a big dumb grin on my
• 39:17
  face for a lot of it. But I'm also not expecting this
• 39:21
  to be the be all and end all greatest thing they've ever done
• 39:25
  because I have been burned before so.
• 39:28
  Jared put a lot of money into Muppets Now merchandise.
• 39:30
  Oh. My God, just no.
• 39:32
  I put a lot of money into Muppets now.
• 39:33
  I was one of the investors and I lost everything.
• 39:36
  I'm. So sorry, Jared.
• 39:38
  I wanted more Howard. You got what you deserved,
• 39:41
  honestly. OK, OK, steering away from that,
• 39:44
  I guess I, well, I, I wrote, I started writing an article for
• 39:49
  Tough Pigs that I just never finished up that started with
• 39:55
  this lie of an intro. It went.
• 39:58
  We've all been pretty hyped up about the news of a brand new
• 40:01
  episode of The Muppet Show coming to Disney Plus next year.
• 40:03
  When we got the news here at Tough Pigs HQ, we all leapt up
• 40:06
  and cheered. We high fived, hugged, cried,
• 40:09
  poured Gatorade on Joe's head, uncorked all the wine, drank all
• 40:12
  the beer, sang the national anthem, did the Kermumbo, did
• 40:14
  Coke, and the rest we don't remember.
• 40:16
  And it. Doesn't have to be a lie, I mean
• 40:18
  I can call him up and like arrange that if you want.
• 40:21
  OK. Thank you.
• 40:22
  But like it, it's kind of the feeling that I wanted to be true
• 40:26
  because there was that little bit of a sense of, holy crap,
• 40:27
  the thing we've been talking about forever is actually
• 40:30
  happening. Like I, I wrote a whole article
• 40:33
  last year about how it feels like this should be happening,
• 40:37
  gang. Everybody wants it feels like it
• 40:39
  should be happening. And then it's like, what it's,
• 40:41
  it's happening. It's real in this timeline.
• 40:45
  It's it's not a show that you have to be on one specific
• 40:47
  journey of a Disney Cruise ship to see.
• 40:51
  It's The Muppet Show. New Disney Plus in this reality.
• 40:55
  Screens and more. I can't believe it, it's
• 41:00
  actually happening, but it is the thing of like, we've been
• 41:03
  burned so many times before that we can't get that jazzed about
• 41:07
  it just yet. We're excited, but boy, are we
• 41:12
  just like, at least for me, I'm trying not to have any
• 41:15
  expectations. And the odd thing is that it's
• 41:20
  working. The one thing I will say, Oh
• 41:23
  yeah, go ahead. No, I was going to say I I would
• 41:26
  tend to agree. My my expectations lie only in
• 41:29
  that I know what this team is capable of, you know, and I know
• 41:35
  that the love and the dedication that like Lee Slaughter and
• 41:39
  Danny Iglesias and Frank Ross Snyder and stuff that they have
• 41:43
  for this. And I should say Ryan Dozier as
• 41:45
  well, that they have for these characters and the reverence
• 41:49
  they have these characters and their willingness to they just
• 41:51
  want this to be good. Yeah.
• 41:54
  And so, you know, you look at the couple of things that
• 41:57
  they've all done together, which has been the, you know, they
• 42:01
  they all came in sort of after Muppets now.
• 42:04
  So, you know, you look at Muppets Haunted Mansion and you
• 42:07
  look at Muppets Mayhem and even just like the things at the
• 42:12
  parks, like The Muppets on a bus singing Christmas carols during
• 42:17
  a parade, whatever it might be, this is all these guys.
• 42:20
  And so I have. Bunsen and Beaker selling
• 42:22
  chicken wings. Oh, Bunsen beaker selling
• 42:24
  chicken wings, which, by the way, I was there when they
• 42:26
  filmed all those things and it was very fun to watch.
• 42:28
  Well, I was at Epcot and I drank the pickle milkshake.
• 42:32
  Oh, not well. I heard them talking about a
• 42:34
  pick a milkshake and it sounded tasty.
• 42:37
  It's better than I was expecting.
• 42:39
  Was I born? I pitched a joke for that and
• 42:41
  they didn't take it, and I can't remember what the joke was.
• 42:43
  Yeah, so my expectations lie in only that I know what these guys
• 42:46
  are capable of and what they want to do.
• 42:48
  It's just what it has turned out to be.
• 42:52
  Now I can get no information out.
• 42:54
  Their intentions are pure correct.
• 42:57
  I can get no information out of them.
• 43:00
  Ryan Dozier will tell me nothing.
• 43:02
  Danny Glaser will tell me nothing.
• 43:04
  At least sort of will tell me nothing.
• 43:07
  So I don't know any more than anybody else.
• 43:11
  But my expectations are high, but realistically high.
• 43:17
  Like I'm not expecting to be all and end all.
• 43:19
  I am going into it ready to be happily surprised with what we
• 43:25
  get. I think the potential of it is
• 43:31
  the most exciting thing. Naturally, that's how it goes.
• 43:34
  But not just the potential of more Muppet Show stuff and more
• 43:38
  good Muppet stuff and more of The Muppets in their element,
• 43:40
  more of these characters in the environment that they're from,
• 43:43
  where they really belong. There's another thing about it
• 43:46
  that's pretty exciting, or at least has the a lot of potential
• 43:50
  to it. This could be the thing that
• 43:53
  breaks the Vogel vicious cycle. What do I mean by the Vogel
• 43:57
  vicious cycle? I mean the fact that it has felt
• 44:02
  like for a very long time there has been this shadow cast over
• 44:09
  the Matt Vogel Kermit by Internet comments being really,
• 44:13
  really mean about it. And there's been a sense that
• 44:18
  maybe like that we haven't gotten the big on screen
• 44:22
  production with Kermit the Frog yet because maybe this Kermit is
• 44:27
  either not ready or just the fans haven't gotten used to it
• 44:30
  yet. And so why center a big
• 44:32
  production around a character that the fans or just that the
• 44:37
  general public is not used to yet in this form?
• 44:39
  But then because we don't get the big production, not enough
• 44:43
  people are seeing what The Muppets are doing.
• 44:45
  And so they can't get used to this version of Kermit.
• 44:48
  And so then they're bitter about it online.
• 44:51
  And then it feels even more like maybe it's not time yet.
• 44:55
  And now I get the sense that it's time.
• 44:57
  I get the sense that it is time to play the music, time to light
• 45:00
  the lights. Everyone's going to, everyone
• 45:03
  who likes The Muppets, I assume, I hope is going to see this, see
• 45:07
  that it's out there. You know, unless there's another
• 45:10
  thing like the Jimmy Kimmel thing and people unsubscribe
• 45:13
  from Disney Plus forever and ever and ever.
• 45:14
  But you know what I mean? Like, barring anything like that
• 45:17
  happening again, presumably everyone who likes The Muppets
• 45:20
  is going to tune in for a new Muppet show.
• 45:23
  And they're going to, one way or the other, get used to this
• 45:28
  Kermit the Frog or this is the moment where we realize they
• 45:33
  can't get used to it. The Muppets doing The Muppet
• 45:37
  Show again isn't even working because of how much people are
• 45:40
  not vibing with this particular element of the of the franchise.
• 45:45
  I don't know which way it's going to go.
• 45:47
  I'm hopeful for the less conflicting option, more nice
• 45:51
  option, but I don't know. I mean, my feeling is it it, it
• 45:58
  certainly may be one of the biggest projects that Matt will
• 46:01
  be will have done as with Kermit.
• 46:06
  But I don't think it's necessarily fair to put that
• 46:08
  kind of pressure on it. Look, if people don't, you know,
• 46:14
  aren't crazy about the Vogel voice, that's up for Muppet
• 46:18
  Studio to decide. They get to decide whether Matt
• 46:22
  continues on as Kermit or not. That's not it's not up to the
• 46:26
  fans. Of course they can complain to
• 46:28
  the blue in the face, but as long as, you know, the folks at
• 46:31
  the Muppet Studio have faith in him that, then that's that.
• 46:36
  It's either get used to it or get used to less Muppet things.
• 46:40
  Well, and I can't tell whether it's going to be the people get
• 46:43
  used to it or they get used to less Muppet things.
• 46:45
  And that's, that's The thing is I don't know which way it's
• 46:47
  going to go, but it feels like this is going to be at least to
• 46:49
  at least to some small degree, a moment for Matt Vogel Kermit.
• 46:54
  Well, you have to look at it this way.
• 46:56
  How much did general audiences really even value just The
• 46:59
  Muppet Show? Not even like, because everybody
• 47:02
  knows that The Muppets do The Muppet Show all the time.
• 47:05
  That's like kind of their gimmick.
• 47:06
  But like, you don't really see people that don't consider
• 47:12
  themselves like at least committed Muppet fans watching
• 47:17
  The Muppet Show often. I would say that nowadays The
• 47:21
  Muppet Show doesn't have as much value as it did when it had the
• 47:24
  Brian Henson intros, but I think like.
• 47:30
  I think that when I, I think that when the Muppet Show hit
• 47:33
  Disney Plus, it was huge. That's I like I heard a ton of
• 47:36
  people talking about the fact that they were watching The
• 47:38
  Muppet Show all the time on Disney Plus when that came out
• 47:41
  and I think it spawned a growth in our fan community to a large
• 47:46
  degree. Multiple new podcasts sprung up,
• 47:48
  some of which lasted and are still going like that.
• 47:53
  Like The Muppet Show being more available on Disney Plus was big
• 47:57
  and people have been watching it.
• 47:58
  It's like, I think my understanding as an outsider is
• 48:01
  that it has been popular and that is part of why we're
• 48:05
  getting this new show. If it doesn't get clipped and
• 48:07
  like put out into the spaces of where broader audiences can see
• 48:12
  them not on Disney Plus, then I don't think it's going to get
• 48:18
  real traction. But I think Sabrina Carpenter
• 48:23
  being in it is kind of the plus here, right, because she is
• 48:27
  arguably she's been the biggest star this year.
• 48:32
  Let's be real. Let's.
• 48:33
  Be honest, the like on on. It is unreal that we are in the
• 48:38
  timeline in which, guest star wise, The Muppet Show just
• 48:41
  scored this jackpot in my. That's yeah, yeah, 100.
• 48:44
  Percent. This is our Rudolf Nureyev
• 48:46
  moment. But like, truly, it's mind
• 48:51
  boggling to me. Like, sorry, it's it's not, it's
• 48:54
  not with oh gosh, who was that? The host of America's Funniest
• 48:58
  Home Videos, who they always got back in the day, Tom.
• 49:00
  Bergeron. Tom Berger.
• 49:02
  Yeah, the fact that it's not The Muppet Show with special guest
• 49:04
  star Tom Bergeron, but it is The Muppet Show with special guest
• 49:07
  Sabrina Carpenter. Mind boggling.
• 49:11
  Yeah, I think realistically, 2 things are going to happen.
• 49:16
  Number one is JD. I think unfortunately, it's just
• 49:20
  going to show that people aren't going to get used to it.
• 49:23
  I've just, I've no, I've just, I've become tied by.
• 49:29
  I was tied by it by 2019. I was going to say you've you
• 49:33
  have been tired of people not liking the Matt Vogel.
• 49:37
  Voice not not lying, pretty much I don't care if they don't like
• 49:39
  it. OK stop complaining about it.
• 49:41
  There's other things in the world to worry about moving on
• 49:44
  and you know, and yes, OK, I am A and I'm a fan of Matt's
• 49:48
  Kermit. I I think there are a couple of
• 49:52
  times where I have been like, that hasn't been the best
• 49:54
  Kermit, you've done that. But there are other times where
• 49:56
  I'm like, yeah, you nailed it. Yeah.
• 49:58
  Where I think this will help is that where I think Matt shines
• 50:01
  the best is Kermit is when Kermit's happy and doing stuff.
• 50:06
  So, you know, you think about the O2 shows, all the Hollywood
• 50:10
  Bowl shows, Kermit was great in those because he was he was sort
• 50:16
  of lively and happy and performing and having a great
• 50:18
  time. You look at Muppets Haunted
• 50:21
  Mansion, Kermit worked best when he was the ghost version of like
• 50:25
  a ghost host or whatever he was, rather than the Kermit who was
• 50:29
  sitting at home being all sad because you know, oh, you know,
• 50:33
  you don't have to be great to be the great gonzo, gonzo or
• 50:35
  whatever the hell it was that that Yeah, I hated that side of
• 50:40
  Kermit. So you.
• 50:41
  Don't have to be the king, prawn Pepe.
• 50:43
  You can just be a prawn. Exactly.
• 50:46
  Right. So I think this will help
• 50:50
  because I think Kermit will be Kermit will feel like that happy
• 50:53
  putting on a show fun Kermit. Like, yeah, he might get grumpy
• 50:56
  and angry and stuff like that, but I think it will show
• 50:58
  different dynamics and we won't just have the Dan and the Dums.
• 51:01
  Kermit. I think you make a great point.
• 51:05
  Was that was that mathemable Kermit?
• 51:09
  Oh no, Hey, I think you make a great.
• 51:11
  Point. OK.
• 51:13
  Thank you. So, So what I think will happen
• 51:16
  is yes, I think, and it's funny like you don't realize it was
• 51:21
  only because the Internet wasn't so much of a thing.
• 51:23
  People still, there are a lot of people who grew up with The
• 51:27
  Muppet Show who never got used to Steve Whitmire.
• 51:30
  Yeah. You know, I listened to, there
• 51:34
  was an old radio show in Australia called Get This, and
• 51:37
  it's one of my favorite things. And I will still occasionally
• 51:40
  just cycle through old episodes. And I listened to one recently
• 51:44
  and Kermit the Frog came up. And this was in 2007.
• 51:47
  So this is 17 years after Steve took over the host Tony Martin
• 51:51
  says. And granted, he was wrong about
• 51:53
  it, but he goes, didn't Brian Henson or Jim Henson's son take
• 51:56
  over? And he just never quite stand,
• 51:57
  right? But everyone just kind of went
• 51:58
  along with it because we're like, I guess this is just what
• 52:01
  he sounds like now, but it still doesn't sound right.
• 52:04
  That was 17 years later and people are still commenting on
• 52:07
  it. So people aren't going to go
• 52:09
  away. Unfortunately.
• 52:10
  We're always going to have to deal with this as far as long as
• 52:13
  Kermit is played by Matt Vogel. What I also think is going to
• 52:15
  happen with this special, sorry, one moment.
• 52:17
  What I also think will happen with this special is that it
• 52:20
  won't lead to, I don't think it will lead to a series.
• 52:23
  I wish it will and I hope it will, but I don't think it will.
• 52:25
  I think it will lead to more Muppet Show specials.
• 52:28
  I think we'll get a handful every year for a little while.
• 52:31
  And you know, with other big name, I think that's also how
• 52:34
  you keep getting, you know, someone that's the same caliber
• 52:39
  as Sabrina Carpenter by only doing it every so often.
• 52:43
  I'll take it, I'll take it. That sounds fine.
• 52:45
  I remember in 2011 listening to a podcast talking about the the
• 52:50
  2011 movie and the hosts were saying, you know, the guy doing
• 52:54
  Kermit's voice still doesn't sound quite right.
• 52:56
  And I'm thinking it's been over 20 years.
• 52:59
  I don't know that we get to say that it's wrong because I think
• 53:03
  he's the standard now. I think this is what it is like
• 53:07
  we're we're past the point where he can be wrong because it's
• 53:10
  he's not being held to the same standard anymore.
• 53:12
  He's being held to himself because it's been over 20 years.
• 53:15
  And then mine. Is that Kermit has always been
• 53:18
  held to the standard of people's memories.
• 53:20
  And if you remember Jim Henson, no, Steve isn't going to sound
• 53:24
  the same. And if you're you grew up with
• 53:26
  Steve, Matt isn't going to sound the sound the same either.
• 53:30
  And one day someone will take over for Matt and someone will
• 53:33
  go. Doesn't sound like Matt, doesn't
• 53:36
  sound right. And it will.
• 53:38
  And as you said, JD, it's a vicious cycle.
• 53:40
  I mean, look, I've had to shout down people in my own family who
• 53:43
  said, oh, why not just get AI Jim Henson?
• 53:48
  Oh, gross. No, I was against it vehemently.
• 53:52
  Yeah, yeah. Where I my big thing from day
• 53:56
  one, since the day I found out Steve had been let go and that
• 53:58
  Matt was taking over, my whole thing had been.
• 54:02
  I just hope Kermit feels like Kermit.
• 54:06
  As far as I'm concerned, Matt could have come in and been
• 54:08
  like, well, hi everybody, hi ho Kermit the frog here.
• 54:11
  As long as he felt like Kermit, like Steve felt like Kermit to
• 54:15
  me. He felt like Jim's Kermit.
• 54:17
  Matt feels like Steve and Jim's Kermit to me.
• 54:20
  It still feels like the same character.
• 54:22
  And for me, that's so much more important than the voice maybe
• 54:26
  not always being 100% spot on. And I'm just, people aren't even
• 54:32
  willing to accept it because they're so put off by the voice.
• 54:37
  And there are people in our own, there are people on the top big
• 54:39
  staff who I have an argument with about this.
• 54:41
  As you said, JD, I've had, I've had enough of it since pretty
• 54:44
  much six months into it. It's like, all right, it's time
• 54:46
  to move on now. I also think and I and I much
• 54:50
  like don't want to keep re litigating Matt Vogel's Kermit.
• 54:54
  I think also the disadvantage Matt has had is whereas with
• 55:00
  Steve, Kermit was still a very active character in the years
• 55:05
  following Jim's passing, Matt really hasn't gotten that chance
• 55:10
  to showcase himself. Well, this is what I meant by
• 55:12
  the Vogel vicious cycle. This.
• 55:14
  Is what I'm saying. I also I also think as well
• 55:18
  Steve had, and this is going to sound like an awful sentence but
• 55:22
  let me explain myself. Steve had the added bonus that
• 55:24
  Jim had died. Right.
• 55:26
  You couldn't go back to the to the.
• 55:28
  You couldn't go back, whereas because Steve got let go and is
• 55:32
  still around and is still like, you know, doing.
• 55:34
  Doing convention appearances. And stuff like that.
• 55:36
  There are people who go, well, why can't we just hire him back?
• 55:38
  You should hire him back. It's like, no, it's not quite.
• 55:41
  No, not really on the table actually.
• 55:44
  It's not on the table. It's not going to happen.
• 55:46
  So yeah, it's. Would be a a a strange dynamic
• 55:53
  on set I imagine, which is maybe not what you want for a a Muppet
• 55:57
  production or for making any production.
• 56:00
  Yeah, I think so. I.
• 56:02
  Yeah, No, Steve, kind of you were.
• 56:05
  You're right. Like he kind of had that
• 56:06
  advantage where he was the recast and people knew Jim
• 56:09
  Henson died. They were like, OK, well, we
• 56:11
  either have a choice of a recast or nobody else.
• 56:14
  I think also, like, it's different in this landscape
• 56:17
  because, you know, I've been told like, yeah, people also
• 56:21
  complained about Steve's Kermit when Steve started.
• 56:25
  But a lot of those complaints weren't platformed the same way
• 56:30
  that we see them now in social media comments, you know, and.
• 56:34
  Also, and also in terms of other like the, our capacity to
• 56:42
  imagine other people being Kermit is much wider because now
• 56:47
  there is a landscape in which you can not just see all of the
• 56:50
  angry comments. You can also see all of the
• 56:53
  people doing their own bad Kermit impressions that a lot of
• 56:55
  people think are really good. Like which just flooding the
• 56:59
  Internet, people who are like Piggy and people are like, Oh my
• 57:04
  gosh, it's spot on. It's it's just, it's been a big
• 57:09
  part of this recast that I wasn't really a possibility
• 57:13
  before. My argument is always with
• 57:15
  people who are such big things of like Steve should come back.
• 57:20
  I always say, do you think Steve sounded anything like Jim?
• 57:24
  And if they say yes, I go, well, you and I have nothing to
• 57:27
  discuss because we're never going to agree.
• 57:30
  Steve did not sound like Jim at all.
• 57:33
  And I think by the end he was just sounding like Steve.
• 57:37
  But again, like I said, as long as it felt like Kermit, it
• 57:40
  didn't really bother me so. Yeah.
• 57:43
  So, Matt? Doesn't sound like Steve.
• 57:45
  Steve didn't sound like Jim. OK, I have a million thoughts on
• 57:50
  that and gosh, I should have started this conversation early
• 57:53
  if I was going to have it, but it's going to bug me if I don't
• 57:54
  share them now. Steve Wittmeyer's Kermit did to
• 57:58
  a much greater degree than maths was in the tradition of the way
• 58:02
  that The Muppets had trained us, that a Kermit kind of voice
• 58:05
  sounds. And so you can look at basically
• 58:07
  parodies of Kermit within the Muppet franchise that give you a
• 58:11
  sense of how The Muppets think about how Kermit sounds.
• 58:14
  The first one being Kermit the Pig on The Muppet Show, in which
• 58:17
  Dave Goles is doing that kind of, you know, the big like he's
• 58:20
  doing that kind of froggy, you know, Polly Waggy, boggy, you
• 58:24
  know, that wet, squirmy sound. And then you get to The Muppets
• 58:28
  Take Manhattan with Phil Gill, Jill, in which we see what a
• 58:33
  frog is like when they are not surrounded by a bears and pigs
• 58:37
  and chickens with their natural frog accent.
• 58:40
  And of course, you know, they all talk like this.
• 58:43
  And then Muppet Babies comes out after that and Frank Welker's
• 58:48
  Kermit is their baby Piggy. You know, it's that kind of like
• 58:52
  it's all, it's all in this order and universe like this.
• 58:55
  And does any of that sound exactly like Kermit?
• 58:57
  No, but The Muppets over and over and over again taught us
• 59:01
  that the way that you sound like Kermit is like that.
• 59:04
  And then Steve did a Kermit voice that was as much as he
• 59:08
  possibly could be in that Kermit tradition.
• 59:11
  And I think Steve was more than being held accountable to Jim's
• 59:15
  actual voice is held accountable to that imagined Kermit voice
• 59:19
  that everyone does impressions of the I don't have any money,
• 59:22
  but what I do have is a very particular set of skills.
• 59:24
  That's not actually how Jim Henson's Kermit talked.
• 59:27
  It had a lot more nuances to it. But there is a shared social
• 59:30
  agreement that it sounds like that.
• 59:32
  Matt Vogel does an incredible job as Kermit the Frog in so
• 59:36
  many ways, but his natural voice is a not a, you know, a wet,
• 59:43
  slimy, froggy, Polly, waggy, swampy, or a rounded sound, all
• 59:49
  those things. That you're looking for is
• 59:50
  Southern. No, no, not.
• 59:54
  It's not that. It's it's different.
• 59:56
  It's different. I'm talking about this.
• 59:59
  You understand what I'm talking. I'm talking about this like
• 1:00:01
  that. There's a certain, there's a
• 1:00:03
  certain like the lumpy noise to to it that maybe Matt hasn't.
• 1:00:10
  Adapted which there well, there's also a roundness to it
• 1:00:14
  that like you can think back to OK, this is a weird comparison,
• 1:00:18
  but when Bob Dylan would sing in a way that sounded kind of nice
• 1:00:22
  not as but the the other Bob Dylan singing voice on lay lady
• 1:00:26
  lay, you know lay lady lay lay across my big breath.
• 1:00:29
  You know it's that thing is just the opposite of the way that
• 1:00:34
  Matt's natural voice is where his is a like dry, coarse,
• 1:00:39
  sandy, throaty, a little bit nasally voice one that sounds
• 1:00:42
  great one that I love to listen to as a podcast host one that I
• 1:00:46
  love to listen to for Jerry Nelson characters.
• 1:00:50
  But translating that that very dry sound to the very wet sound
• 1:00:55
  is a bridge that vocally he has never been able to cross.
• 1:01:00
  So Steve has the Ed had the advantage of more time.
• 1:01:05
  He Steve had so many advantages. But it also helped that Steve
• 1:01:08
  could get a little bit closer to the way that the public like
• 1:01:11
  shares and imagined sense of what a Kermity froggy voice
• 1:01:15
  sounds like in a way that Matt's voice just can't quite seem to
• 1:01:18
  do. Is that me saying Steve should
• 1:01:20
  come back? Absolutely not.
• 1:01:23
  Is that me saying that's possible?
• 1:01:24
  Of course not. Am I saying that the character
• 1:01:27
  should be recast with someone else?
• 1:01:29
  I don't think so, but am I still a little bit taken out of it
• 1:01:33
  every time I I watch a new Kermit thing?
• 1:01:36
  Yeah, I started listening to the Before You Leap audiobook just
• 1:01:42
  to try to like Baptism by fire, get used to this voice.
• 1:01:46
  And I still after listening to the 1st 30 hours of this 4 hour
• 1:01:52
  audiobook, I still can't quite get settled into it.
• 1:01:56
  And I want to, but I'm not sure I'm someone who can believe that
• 1:02:00
  the voice is nothing when I think of a character like little
• 1:02:03
  Chrissy on Sesame Street, right? I love little Chrissy.
• 1:02:08
  And it didn't matter who the puppeteer was.
• 1:02:11
  It mattered who the voice was. It was about that Chris Surf
• 1:02:15
  vocal singing, Exit singing, Count it higher.
• 1:02:20
  And indeed, the vocal performance that he gave as a
• 1:02:22
  character in those little quiet moments at the end of Exit and
• 1:02:25
  then when he shot, Like for me, it's about the vocal
• 1:02:28
  performance. And I don't know who played, who
• 1:02:31
  was performing the puppets in most of those.
• 1:02:32
  It doesn't matter. I know sometimes it was Jim
• 1:02:34
  Henson, but it doesn't matter. I still love that character
• 1:02:37
  because the vocal performance is something.
• 1:02:39
  The voice is something. And if they wreak and brought
• 1:02:43
  the character back and recast the character and it didn't
• 1:02:45
  sound the same, I would be like, what's even the point?
• 1:02:47
  I don't care. And so there's only so much I
• 1:02:50
  can blame fans, as tiresome as the conversation gets for having
• 1:02:56
  that experience of well, actually the the sound of it was
• 1:02:59
  a big part of my connection to this character who sounded about
• 1:03:03
  the same for about 25 years, for over a quarter of a century.
• 1:03:09
  I think that it's understandable and valid to feel an extreme
• 1:03:12
  sense of disconnect after that. Yeah.
• 1:03:14
  And I think ultimately, like the line is drawn at Kermit as a
• 1:03:19
  unique accent and it has not reappeared necessarily every
• 1:03:26
  time. I mean, Steve never had the
• 1:03:29
  accent. No, he, he had like a little bit
• 1:03:31
  of it. He did because he was, he's from
• 1:03:33
  Georgia and he can kind of mimic it a little bit.
• 1:03:36
  Steve's Kermit sounds a bit more Canadian, whereas Jim's sounds.
• 1:03:40
  More so, well. I don't know why Steve sounds
• 1:03:43
  Canadian, it doesn't make sense, but.
• 1:03:45
  Jim's Kermit. This is like the only example I
• 1:03:48
  can think of. Jim's Kermit would say the word
• 1:03:51
  that as that. And Steve's Kermit did the same
• 1:03:55
  thing because he picked up on those nuances and then and and
• 1:04:01
  Matt's Kermit is very enunciated.
• 1:04:06
  And that's all I have to say about that.
• 1:04:08
  Neither of them has Jim's, you know, ball call fall that.
• 1:04:12
  Kind of thing, yes, that was. Everything that the two of you
• 1:04:15
  have just said, and especially your entire point, JD, that is
• 1:04:20
  why this new Muppet Show will not get people to change their
• 1:04:23
  minds. That is why.
• 1:04:25
  That is why the latter will happen.
• 1:04:27
  That is why people will just never accept it.
• 1:04:30
  And I get it. And I don't blame anyone for
• 1:04:33
  having that disconnect. I'm just sick of reading the
• 1:04:37
  comments. Move on.
• 1:04:38
  Yeah, the the other thing I'll, you know, I'll, I will skip my
• 1:04:42
  other points about that for now and I can circle back to this
• 1:04:44
  some other time or you and I can yell about.
• 1:04:46
  It can we make a sequel episode after the thing comes out?
• 1:04:50
  Yeah, I don't. I don't know what I'm going to
• 1:04:52
  do with this show yet. What I'll say is whatever Matt
• 1:04:54
  is doing is definitely working at in person events as I've
• 1:05:00
  experienced myself and as I've, I've, I've seen other people
• 1:05:03
  have this experience with if you can get people in a room with
• 1:05:07
  them, then the puppetry matters a lot more.
• 1:05:11
  Like when you're watching a good puppeteer do Kermit as opposed
• 1:05:13
  to a fan do Kermit, then you can just tell, oh, that's really
• 1:05:17
  Kermit the frog. You can see it.
• 1:05:19
  And when that happens to people in person, they notice it a lot
• 1:05:22
  more than on video. And people lock in and do not
• 1:05:25
  notice the vocal differences as much, but do notice the
• 1:05:27
  character, the personality, all the stuff that you and I live
• 1:05:30
  for. Like Jared, I think both of us
• 1:05:32
  really appreciate a good embodied puppetry performance.
• 1:05:36
  When I'm watching, like the stuff that gets me excited
• 1:05:39
  watching them up, It's these days is when Ryan Dillon makes
• 1:05:44
  an interesting acting choice with Elmo.
• 1:05:46
  Like a video I saw of him a few weeks or months ago where Elmo
• 1:05:51
  and Abby are having a laughing fit and as they calm down, Elmo
• 1:05:55
  wipes a tear from his eye. Of course there's no real tear
• 1:05:58
  there, but the gesture was so perfectly done I lost it.
• 1:06:03
  And that has nothing to do with the voice.
• 1:06:05
  That all has to do with puppetry, skill, acting, being
• 1:06:09
  able to totally embody a character and think about the
• 1:06:12
  way that someone would actually experience laughter and the
• 1:06:16
  nuances of that. That's where Ryan is just
• 1:06:19
  endlessly creative and never lets you get bored with his
• 1:06:22
  performance. And a lot of these puppeteers
• 1:06:24
  are like that. And I think I've seen Matt do
• 1:06:27
  that kind of stuff to to a lesser extent, but I've still
• 1:06:29
  seen it like that guy really embodies a character and it's
• 1:06:34
  always really exciting to watch someone like this work.
• 1:06:37
  So what you're basically saying is Matt Vogel needs to go door
• 1:06:40
  to door with Kermit? Well, but it already feels like
• 1:06:43
  the only way we're getting to see Kermit these days is not
• 1:06:47
  through big video projects, but it's like apparitions.
• 1:06:52
  We know that Kermit still exists because of eyewitness
• 1:06:54
  testimonies, because people saw him show up at the University of
• 1:06:58
  Maryland. OK, let me tell you this story
• 1:07:00
  real quick. I know we're running long, and
• 1:07:03
  we haven't talked to them about the main thing I wanted to talk
• 1:07:06
  about yet. But last night, as we're
• 1:07:07
  recording this last night was Halloween.
• 1:07:09
  And in my neighborhood, we don't have a lot of kids coming
• 1:07:13
  through. And so us adults end up just
• 1:07:15
  sort of gathering outside and chatting with each other.
• 1:07:17
  It becomes a social thing. And I was talking with my
• 1:07:20
  neighbors a little bit. And these are not Muppet nerds
• 1:07:24
  like us. Ordinary people have heard of
• 1:07:27
  Muppets, have seen a little bit many years ago, almost sort of
• 1:07:31
  remember who gonzo is, that kind of thing.
• 1:07:34
  And they have a kid who just graduated from the University of
• 1:07:38
  Maryland. So they were at the Kermit
• 1:07:41
  commencement speech, the commencement, they were telling
• 1:07:44
  me a little bit about it. I was naturally very curious,
• 1:07:45
  what would an ordinary person think of going to their kids
• 1:07:48
  commencement? And the speaker is Kermit the
• 1:07:49
  Frog. And initially they had
• 1:07:51
  reservations like, OK, this feels a little weird like this,
• 1:07:55
  this is a mark of adulthood for our kid.
• 1:07:58
  And we're getting a, a sort of a children's character.
• 1:08:02
  There's something kind of cartoony about this.
• 1:08:04
  But then as it went on and the more he talked, the more they
• 1:08:08
  were like, this is actually moving.
• 1:08:09
  This is profound. We should do like she, the, the
• 1:08:13
  mother said we should be taking notes.
• 1:08:16
  And that's when the, the father said, I did take notes.
• 1:08:21
  I did start taking notes about what Kermit was saying because
• 1:08:23
  it was really cool. And he opens up his notes app
• 1:08:26
  and starts going through it and is like, all right, he was.
• 1:08:29
  He made three points. And the first point was find
• 1:08:33
  your people. And he talks about, you know,
• 1:08:35
  find bears and pigs and gonzos. You remember?
• 1:08:39
  You remember Gonzo? Yeah.
• 1:08:40
  You would know Gonzo. Yeah.
• 1:08:42
  And he talks about taking the leap and finding people to take
• 1:08:48
  the leap with you so you don't do it alone.
• 1:08:51
  And his Third Point was about keeping connections.
• 1:08:54
  And then he's got something about dreams.
• 1:08:57
  Life is how we get there. I swear to frog.
• 1:09:01
  I swear to frog. My neighbor quoted to me
• 1:09:04
  verbatim. Life is how we get there.
• 1:09:07
  That one Dang line that Matt Vogel's Kermit has been saying
• 1:09:11
  since the beginning. It is at least twice.
• 1:09:15
  Matt Vogel's Kermit says it in the Before You Leave audiobook
• 1:09:18
  that dreams are how we figure out where we want to go.
• 1:09:21
  Life is how we get there. And I have my ordinary neighbor
• 1:09:25
  quoting it at me now because he thought it was profound.
• 1:09:29
  Whatever Matt Vogel is doing for ordinary people, so long as they
• 1:09:34
  get to see it is working. He's out there delivering 3
• 1:09:38
  point sermons about connections and dreams that are having
• 1:09:42
  people take notes and have the spiritual experiences with it
• 1:09:48
  like he's a Dang Billy Graham. I don't get it, but it's
• 1:09:54
  working. It's just working.
• 1:09:59
  I think this was kind of like the end all be all point to the
• 1:10:02
  Matt Vogel voice conversation. And I don't think I have any
• 1:10:06
  more to say. Yeah.
• 1:10:08
  Like you kind of you finished the conversation, this eternal
• 1:10:12
  conversation. I think you finished it.
• 1:10:14
  Thanks. Like all the comments are gonna
• 1:10:16
  be done there. They're gonna be like, you can't
• 1:10:17
  complain about. This.
• 1:10:18
  Listen, listen, all you gotta do is just put this out, OK?
• 1:10:22
  You're gonna clip it, put it all over my grid.
• 1:10:24
  Make a video essay and implant this audio.
• 1:10:29
  I really think it'll work. Where I disagree with Jared is I
• 1:10:32
  don't think that this very Muppet Movie inspired Kermit,
• 1:10:35
  who's very happy, is going to work as well in The Muppet Show,
• 1:10:38
  a show on which Kermit was almost always stressed.
• 1:10:40
  But. Yeah, that's something.
• 1:10:42
  But we have seen Matt be able to vary his Kermit and do a more
• 1:10:45
  stressed out. Kermit, before he can do that, I
• 1:10:47
  just mean like Kermit's been down to the dumps a lot and I
• 1:10:50
  think Matt's Kermit works when he's not being down to the
• 1:10:54
  dumps. But again, we're just going in
• 1:10:57
  circles and I'm very aware of the time.
• 1:10:59
  OK, yeah. So the last thing I wanted to
• 1:11:01
  talk about is another mostly in person thing, but at least we
• 1:11:05
  can live stream this the Muppet script, which is not an official
• 1:11:07
  thing. It's, you know, sort of a fan
• 1:11:09
  thing. But it also feels big for a fan
• 1:11:12
  thing, as all of these comedy celebrities, these terrific
• 1:11:16
  comedians who I follow, are performing the scripts to Muppet
• 1:11:21
  movies at cool comedy venues. And this has been the thing that
• 1:11:26
  I've been most looking forward to every time there's a new one.
• 1:11:30
  This is my jam. This is the thing that has me
• 1:11:33
  excited. This is the thing that has me
• 1:11:34
  pumped and that keeps delivering.
• 1:11:36
  It is so cool, so satisfying, so validating to see cool people
• 1:11:42
  making this cool show out of my stuff.
• 1:11:46
  Do you know what I mean? Yes, yeah.
• 1:11:49
  Oh, I waited too long to talk about this.
• 1:11:51
  Now you're all tired. Sorry, no.
• 1:11:53
  I could go on about this personally because I was there.
• 1:11:56
  Yeah, Gab, you were in the third one in The Muppets Take Script
• 1:11:59
  hat and Gab, what was that like? What was it?
• 1:12:01
  Tell me, what was it like in in the room?
• 1:12:04
  Well, you know, I had, you know, they were small lines.
• 1:12:07
  But yeah, in the wedding scene of Muppets, Take Manhattan and
• 1:12:10
  close your ears if you haven't watched it.
• 1:12:13
  But there are babies and grandmas and they sing this one
• 1:12:18
  line and I just, you know, kind of made, I call them like paper
• 1:12:24
  bobs because that's what they taught me their name was in
• 1:12:27
  elementary school. But you know these paper origami
• 1:12:29
  puppets that you fold and then you draw on them And yeah, that
• 1:12:34
  was probably one of the funniest last minute bits I think I've
• 1:12:38
  ever thought of in front of an audience.
• 1:12:39
  It was very cute. I really enjoyed it when you had
• 1:12:43
  like on one hand the puppet, it goes days go passing into years
• 1:12:48
  and then you like switch hands and the other puppet goes years
• 1:12:51
  go passing day by day. It was like a really good bit
• 1:12:54
  that was totally unexpected and really different from the rest
• 1:12:56
  of the show, but really fun. Thank you.
• 1:12:59
  Yeah, Muppets take script hat and was just full of incredible
• 1:13:05
  knockout performances with the Miss Piggy versus Joan Rivers.
• 1:13:11
  Few let me tell you, Bring me down the Dang house.
• 1:13:14
  I was crying tears backstage. I was watching the scene from
• 1:13:20
  the stairs. There was like nobody backstage.
• 1:13:22
  I was watching the scene as it was playing out from the side of
• 1:13:26
  the stage, and I was crying to the point of no, I was laughing
• 1:13:33
  to the point of tears. I was crying.
• 1:13:35
  Yeah, I was crying. I had a lot going on in my life.
• 1:13:37
  I was crying because I was laughing so hard.
• 1:13:41
  And the thing was, is that, you know, it's scripted, so, you
• 1:13:45
  know, the show was going as usual.
• 1:13:47
  And then they start improvising, and that just broke everything.
• 1:13:53
  Yeah. I once the Joan Rivers
• 1:13:55
  impersonator went backstage. I couldn't give enough
• 1:13:59
  compliments. And it got to the point where
• 1:14:01
  she was like, OK, like calm down.
• 1:14:03
  But I like in my heart, I, I really felt like I just, I
• 1:14:08
  wanted to believe I was talking to Joan.
• 1:14:11
  Yeah, it was is like such a good impression.
• 1:14:14
  She brought her own, like, written jokes to add to the
• 1:14:17
  scene. And it all killed after that
• 1:14:20
  scene was over and she went backstage.
• 1:14:22
  Everyone who was sitting on stage stood up in a standing
• 1:14:26
  ovation. Was a literal show stopper and
• 1:14:32
  only one of many great moments in that show.
• 1:14:35
  Like Leslie Carrera, Rudolph played I think 3 different
• 1:14:38
  characters and each time complete completely had my
• 1:14:44
  attention and I was just like gosh, this is making Beth one of
• 1:14:48
  the funniest character. The bear that Fozzie hibernates,
• 1:14:51
  one of the funniest characters in the movie.
• 1:14:54
  The Doctor Who twists Kermit's legs around becomes an extra
• 1:14:58
  funny character who in this version, because it was pulling
• 1:15:02
  from earlier versions of the script, had a ton of extra lines
• 1:15:05
  to do and like had to take on all these different voices.
• 1:15:08
  It became just a a Leslie Carrara Rudolph festival for a
• 1:15:13
  moment where like you remember, oh, right, this is like our
• 1:15:17
  greatest living actor. I forgot for a moment, but now I
• 1:15:22
  remember. This is one of the most
• 1:15:23
  incredible talents on God's great earth.
• 1:15:26
  And then the Liza Minnelli impression.
• 1:15:28
  Her Liza Minnelli was not much. Oh, Leslie, what a powerhouse.
• 1:15:34
  She's great. It's been so exciting from the
• 1:15:36
  beginning, like the very first one, just, it blew me away just
• 1:15:39
  learning about the casting, seeing every casting decision.
• 1:15:41
  I'm like yes, yes, yes. I so I will be taking over the
• 1:15:47
  next lot of the podcasts for it. Joe won't be able to do the
• 1:15:51
  podcasting with Matt Wilkie for the next 1 so I'm taking over
• 1:15:54
  and I've got a Zoom with Matt in a couple of days and he's going
• 1:15:57
  to tell me the cast rundown and I'm so excited to find out who
• 1:16:00
  he's got for what. Yeah, I'm, I'm, yes, I me too.
• 1:16:04
  Like I have already in my head been like, oh, so many
• 1:16:07
  interesting ideas. Especially because this next
• 1:16:09
  one's going to be back in LA, right?
• 1:16:11
  I believe so, yes. Yeah.
• 1:16:12
  So we can have more drop out people, which I know you and I,
• 1:16:15
  Jared, are both pretty excited to see, I think.
• 1:16:18
  Yeah, from that first one, when I learned Griffin Newman was
• 1:16:21
  going to be playing Max I, I'm pretty sure I literally fell
• 1:16:24
  over. I I was just like, Oh my gosh,
• 1:16:28
  it's perfection. And then the end with Sam Reich
• 1:16:32
  as Lou Lord being the one who welcomes all of these weird
• 1:16:36
  comedians into their new home, their new career.
• 1:16:40
  Who gives them that contract and makes their dreams come true?
• 1:16:43
  It's like this is such a touching moment.
• 1:16:46
  It's such a touching moment. And it's so silly because he's
• 1:16:49
  got puppet Sam with him. The like the only puppet in that
• 1:16:52
  show is the one playing Lou Lord.
• 1:16:55
  And it shouldn't be touching, but it was.
• 1:16:58
  It was so moving. Oh, they've all been so
• 1:17:01
  beautiful, gang. They've all been so beautiful.
• 1:17:03
  I have, I haven't, I haven't got to sorry, Take Manhattan yet,
• 1:17:07
  Gav, But I'm looking forward to. Seeing Oh, you'll love it.
• 1:17:10
  You will love. It that will be that will be
• 1:17:12
  this week. In fact, may even be tomorrow.
• 1:17:15
  Tell Matt I said hi when you call I.
• 1:17:16
  Will gang, I think we've come to the end of the first one,
• 1:17:22
  probably the last one, right? This is probably the last one.
• 1:17:24
  Feels like it's the end of of something that it was fun to try
• 1:17:26
  to do. Let's do plugs, Gav.
• 1:17:29
  What do you want to plug? Wait, wait, wait.
• 1:17:32
  Come back to me. Start.
• 1:17:33
  OK, Jared, what do you want to? Plug, come to toughbigs.com.
• 1:17:38
  You can see all the fun silly stuff we do.
• 1:17:41
  We've got some fun podcast new stuff planned.
• 1:17:44
  Obviously we're still doing the 70 years, 70 Muppets that will
• 1:17:47
  grow until the end of the year. And then and then we've got some
• 1:17:50
  fun ideas for next year that I cannot say yet, but but yes, I'm
• 1:17:54
  very, very excited about what's coming podcast wise for topics
• 1:17:57
  next year. Awesome.
• 1:17:59
  All right, Matthew, what would you like to plug?
• 1:18:03
  I'd also like to plug toughpigs.com.
• 1:18:05
  We've got a lot of really exciting things which I know
• 1:18:08
  nothing about. So.
• 1:18:10
  I'm looking forward to finding out about them slightly before
• 1:18:13
  you do. Yeah, me too.
• 1:18:15
  I'm. I was also hearing Jared going.
• 1:18:17
  I don't know what he's talking about.
• 1:18:18
  This will be fun to learn about. Great, Gab, it's back to you.
• 1:18:22
  What would you like to plug? I would like to plug for
• 1:18:26
  everybody to stream wherever they listen to their music.
• 1:18:30
  Mary Schneider yodeling the classics.
• 1:18:33
  Great album. Lots of classics and lots of
• 1:18:36
  yodeling and. Like I haven't already got it on
• 1:18:39
  vinyl. Go on.
• 1:18:41
  Well, if you're lucky you have it on CD too.
• 1:18:43
  You can get that extra that extra quality in the yodel.
• 1:18:50
  Whatever. That's what that's what people
• 1:18:52
  say is, is that CD sounds better than vinyl.
• 1:18:54
  That's what people are saying. Yeah, it might be controversial,
• 1:18:57
  but I'll stand by it. Folks, if you enjoyed this
• 1:19:02
  program, we hope you'll consider supporting us on Patreon.
• 1:19:04
  Thank you to those of you who do so now.
• 1:19:05
  This Tough Pigs Muppet Fan podcast was executive produced
• 1:19:08
  by the Tough Pigs Muppet Fan Podcast executive producer
• 1:19:10
  Johannes. I have no idea where the plan is
• 1:19:12
  for artwork for this. Nowhere near here.
• 1:19:14
  He wasn't even here. I know I have no idea what the
• 1:19:19
  plan is for artwork for this, but I'll thank Kenny Durkin
• 1:19:22
  anyway because that's who did it for the Muppet Fandom Panel show
• 1:19:25
  and he was really nice to be in New York.
• 1:19:27
  Thanks to Frank Goz because it's always a good time to thank of
• 1:19:29
  Frank for toughpigs.com. This is JD Hansel reminding you
• 1:19:31
  as I oh, wait, before I go, hold on a second.
• 1:19:34
  My name is JD Hansel and I do a podcast about classic cartoons
• 1:19:36
  called Stick to Shorts. New season coming pretty early
• 1:19:39
  in 2025. It should be a fun time talking
• 1:19:41
  about a lot of your favorite classic cartoon shorts.
• 1:19:45
  This is JD Hansel reminding you, as I always do, of Jim Henson's
• 1:19:47
  motto. You'll never get out of the
• 1:19:48
  cube. Goodbye.
• 1:19:49
  Well.