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Back to Work After a Baby: Bye Mum Guilt, Hello Confidence! · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries of balance, the challenges they face, and how they've overcome them.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Find their own version of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: No way! Money, struggles, growth, loss, boundaries of balance.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Think of this as coffee with your mates mixed with an inspiring TED Talk, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cozy, and get ready to get inspired and chase your oldest dreams.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now back to the show.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like A Mom podcast.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Today I am chatting with the lovely Zoe Scora, who is the founder of My Maternity Coach.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are on maternity leave at the moment, if you are returning to work after maternity leave, pondering returning to work or have recently returned, then this episode is for you.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to be chatting with Zoe all about how you can improve the transition back into work after maternity leave, how you can, you know, seamlessly go back into your role.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe what's changed in your life, obviously, a massive, massive change and how you can adapt and work as well to suit you and your needs.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much, Zoe, for joining us today.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Real pleasure to chat with you.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure to chat with you too.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's all right.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me, talk me through my maternity coach.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you found the business?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I um was working in a corporate job, um, working in business and learning and development.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So within that, I had my first maternity leave.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um that was, I mean, COVID hit when my daughter was six months old.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that return to work was insane to describe it any better.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So went from working full-time in the office to remote working part-time with a six-month-old who couldn't go to child.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, she was actually a year, obviously, by the time I got back, but she couldn't go to child care because obviously no, there was no childcare.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just a complete blur.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then as things started to return a little bit more back to normal, I fell pregnant again um and then went off on maternity with my son.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it was during that period of time I thought, actually, I want to do something more.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I need to do something more.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I loved my job, I loved the company, but actually I just needed a change.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I did my coaching certification.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it was whilst doing that, that the reality of going back to work really hit me and the thought of it being more of a normal transition, or I say normal in inverted commas because there's nothing normal about this transition.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that kind of return it petrified me.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was so nervous about leaving not one but two kids at home, and I essentially decided that actually that return is something that I feel should be supported a lot more from through organisations.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I went back to work because that's a reality.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I had to go back to work.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I approached the CEO of the company that I worked for and essentially told her my plans and so this is what I want to do.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I created like a bit of a training deck that I wanted to kind of put together and I said I really want to support women during that maternity transition, and this is something I'd love to do for this company, and she agreed.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: So she then rolled out across the global company, um, and I was then able to support every single woman who went on maternity leave, so before, during, and after that transition.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, did that for a few years, but then they also started selling it as a product, so they sold it to their clients and customers that they worked with as well.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then come December last year, um, after five years of doing both, so my part-time job and running the business, I decided actually I just want to go full-time in the business.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is where my heart's leading me and this is what I want to do.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I quit my corporate job in December and started officially on January 2nd this year.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I love this because you've like got such a good sort of credible credentials, really, to back this up.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do you know, like obviously we speak to a lot of coaches and things like that, and a lot of them, you know, being honest, some people don't always have all that experience to back it up, but you know, you've delivered it, you've designed a programme, your company loved it, you've delivered it for five years, they sold it on to other businesses.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really credible offer that you can provide people.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So well done, I love it, and well done for making the leap full-time.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Was that a scary decision?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, mate, yeah.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely believe it's one of the scariest decisions I've ever made.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would probably describe myself as feeling quite trapped for a really long time.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you know, my career path was very like, you know, I did international education at university, I did like a management training degree at a corporate company, completely different to what I was doing, and then just kind of found myself in a different role and found myself at my old company.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like I was like looking for a learning and development role.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: But after being in the corporate world for 10 years, and then all of a sudden thinking, well, I do you know what?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't even hit me that that was what was going to happen.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my goodness, me, how am I gonna leave this nine to five?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: How am I not gonna have a salary on the same day every single month?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing what that income looks like, that was the most daunting thing for me.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I still don't have like that regular salary on the same day every single month, and it is still up in the air of where it comes from.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, my happiness and the the joy in our family is so much different now.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: The atmosphere is so incredible because myself and my husband are very fortunate that we both love what we do and we're very lucky to be able to show the kids that yes, things are different now, and we may not be able to, you know, have steak for dinner five days a week, but actually it doesn't matter because it's we're happy and we're I love that.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I remember growing up my dad hated his job, and and then you sort of as you're growing up, you think, Oh, work sounds really missionable, and he was always counting down to his retirement, he's literally you know, like a prison cell, we can not do the days.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I know hated his job.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And now I think do you know what it's lovely that I my also my husband loves his job as well, and I love it, I love working.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I think that shows your kids' work isn't anything to fear either.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely agree.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's honestly, I think, part of why I started this as well, because you know, the reality is that mums have to work now, and obviously back in the day that wasn't the reality, but that is the way we are now, and I think it's so important to really help women enjoy that when it doesn't always land that way for people.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, my kind of mission is to retain female talent, help people help women feel comfortable in their jobs and feel emotionally supported through such a tricky, challenging transition.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: What are the fears of speaking to women?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: You've obviously spoken to lots of women over the past sort of five, six years since you started this.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: What are the main fears that women come to express about returning to work?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: The main feelings I would suggest.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's kind of the key one, so guilt is a big one, um, identity shift.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: So who are they now in comparison to who they were before?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say confidence is a huge one that gets a really big knock during that transition.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um feeling part of the team, like being connected, uh, is another challenging one.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's I think ultimately what happens is when you fall pregnant, life's no longer about you as a human being.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: From the second you fall pregnant, everything is about that child.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's obviously for nine-ish months.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you have that baby, all that matters is keeping that baby alive.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So realistically, it's around two years of a woman's life where nothing else matters apart from that child.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So then all of a sudden they're coming back to work and everyone's like, oh, okay, well, crack on then.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is normal.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: You've been doing this for however many years.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like actually their entire brain system has recalculated to support becoming a mother.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So why on earth would they be able to just snap back into work mode and everything be normal?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's there's so many different elements of that transition, but I think it all boils down to the fact that all of a sudden they are they are responsible for their own feelings and emotions again.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas before none of that mattered for two years, they just blocked it out.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think whatever, you know, the identity shift, the confidence, the emotions, the happiness, the joy element, all of those kind of things, they didn't matter for two years because all that mattered was this little baby.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then going back to work, women have got the time and opportunity to consider, oh actually, who what am I doing?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: What am I wearing?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: How am I happy?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Am I not happy?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do in my five minutes break time or whatever it is?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when they realise actually this is really hard because I don't have my child with me.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have the thing that's like been my reason for the last year.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get you, because I guess you know, when you were on maternity, it was like so consuming, isn't it?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it is all about that child, and then yeah, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, you feel like you've lost your little anchor.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you're just expected to just be back and bounce.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Feel like you've lost your right arm, you're at work without your arm, and you're like, oh.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time as well, like that first couple of days or first week or so back is the first time your child's been to nursery or childcare, whatever it looks like.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we've all been there when you've done a drop-off and your child's screaming and you're leaving and you're all and you're crying and you're just like and it's just awful.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden you're you're on a 9 a.m.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: call, like, hey, how's it going?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, actually, this is really horrible.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not okay.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh what yeah, I mean, gosh, it is like when you look back, you think, gosh, it's so hard, it is really hard.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I I want to keep this really positive.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of us have done it, we've got through it, and absolutely you know, we've come through the other end.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, me and you, you know, we're in a really fortunate position.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: We love our we love our work.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: What can employers do though to support women?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it I remember when I returned from Attentic, it was really hard.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But you get after a few weeks, it feels like well, even quicker than that, it feels like you never left.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it is that first you know, month or so where you feel really lost.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is a real critical point where I think either women stay or they leave, even if they're staying, but they've sort of checked out mentally.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: How can employers support that?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and and what you're talking about there, I've kind of kind of termed as quiet quitting, because that's that is a really big thing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the biggest thing that employees can do, and it sounds so obvious, but is talk to their people because the amount of managers I've had conversations with, because I support the managers as well to make sure that they feel fully equipped to support the journey.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: The amount of managers who have said, like, oh, well, I've asked the question what happens if your employees come back from work after maternity leave and they've taken a longer-than-normal kind of bathroom break and they've come back and they've got red eyes, like what would you do?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of managers are just gone, yeah, just kind of turn around because I don't know what to do.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, the best thing you can do is just say, like, should we go and have a quick chat?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want a quick chat?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, taking them away from that situation, giving them breathing space, and actually just listening to them.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about the answers.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can't fix the fact that they've had two hours sleep, you can't fix the fact that their kids are not quite like not gone into nursery.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what you can do is be a listening ear and help them to believe in themselves and help them to understand actually talking these things through makes such a huge difference to that transition period.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Feeling heard, yeah.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's not a case of moaning, it's just a case of being heard.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, it's a short time, like it's a moment in time, that kind of transition period.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're supported through that, then you come back so much bigger and better and stronger and happier because you've you feel support you felt supportive throughout that journey.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that you don't come back the same person, you're not the same person you were, and you're a better version of yourself.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm a huge advocate of that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I speak to a lot of women about like, okay, talk to me about what's changed for you as a person, and they're like, Oh, I don't know, I can survive on less sleep.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, like let's seriously work this out.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And people think about time management, like how incredible do you become at time management, problem solving, you know, your patience, all of those really emotive things that make incredible human beings and incredible managers as well in the workplace, and you learn all of that and more by becoming a mummy.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it is just a phase, isn't it?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I remember you know my kids are now at primary school, and it yeah, I think every stage has its different challenges, but it does I feel, and I'm very fortunate, you know.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's people who listen to this maybe to her children have additional needs and things like that.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: But generally, I've I've found in my situation it does get easier.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, they can get themselves dressed, for example, and brush their teeth, and you're not responsible for like wrestling a toddler and getting their nappy on whilst also trying to get your bra on yourself and things like that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it does definitely get get easier for the majority of people.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: What about employees?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone's listening to this, how you know, how can they support themselves through that this transition?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a big part of this is being prepared.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So before the maternity leave starts, asking the question, how do you want to be kept up to date?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: What information do you want to know?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, employees tend to feel guilty to reach out, or they do the opposite and just send them everything.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, what exactly do you want to be kept up to date with is a really great way to start that kind of maternity journey questions.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it start that before you leave, actually.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: If that conversation happens in the right way before maternity leave, it means that everything's clear.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone knows what exactly is expected.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and most women I speak to want to be kept up to date with like big business news.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if a company's been brought out or something like that, they would want to obviously be told about that rather than finding out in the news.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's it doesn't have to be every single minuscule update, it's just the the big things that affect that person quite often, they want to know about.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: The next stage is the kit day prep.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there is so much kit day prep that should be done, which is quite often not done.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So simple things like resetting the password before they start, right?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like simple things like that.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not spending half the day on the phone to IT desperately trying to work out how to log into their laptop.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing I would suggest is setting a meeting for first thing on that kit day, you know, just to give expectations, whether they've got specific tasks or whether it's a case of actually I'm booked in meetings for you to chat with the team or you know, whatever it is, so that they have a plan.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of women who kind of give me the feedback that often the kit days feel very lonely because they just they don't quite know what they're doing, everyone's busy, they're maybe given a task, but then no one checks in with them.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really important for them to feel part of that team and that community from the kit day aspect.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the return itself.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a huge, huge advocate of making sure that there is kind of set meetings booked in the diary and the individuals know who they turn to for certain things.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I know in some companies line management can be a bit confusing, they may or may not have one line manager too, or maybe people are changing positions or whatever, but it is key that that person coming back has people to turn to, at least one person who they feel comfortable to say, I'm struggling, can we have a chat?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's really, really important.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then having regular conversations booked in the diary, because again, that confidence piece quite often means that women won't reach out for help, they'll wait until that's booked in.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've only got a conversation booked in on day one, then maybe on day five, and then oh, we'll catch up again in a month's time, they will wait that month and they may just struggle for whatever reason throughout that entire month.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really important to just have things booked in the diary, even if it's a quick, hey, checking in, I haven't really got much to update you on, but are you okay?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's all it has to be.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So what about the person though?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: They're going into a workplace that doesn't have all this, you know, they don't have any maternity guidance, returning guidance or whatever.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not employer.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's hard.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really hard.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think the big thing for me in this situation is look after yourself, look after your mental health.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have actually got a journal, first day back journal, which I've created, like just a one-pager, which I'll happily share with any of the listeners.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I can send that over, but it's essentially thinking about making and creating a habit that means that you're starting every day in the best possible place.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So also, I think the other thing is, you know, whether your employees are the type of people who you feel you can turn to, try and pinpoint one individual within your organization that you can have a conversation with.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So whether that's a friend, whether that is a colleague, a mentor, a manager, not a manager, but just pinpoint one person that you feel that you can have a conversation with and say, I'm I'm struggling, because genuinely talking things out makes such a huge difference.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really does.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is about being kind to yourself, isn't it?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it really is.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And remembering that I think you look at people, I don't know, I don't know, everyone seems to have it all together.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: No one you I guess you're looking at people that are maybe like further along in their journey, aren't you, than you than you are.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you come back and you think, My gosh, they'd have never had a problem returning to work.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: They never, you know, I pair it all went really smoothly, but actually it does it doesn't, and it didn't.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I think it's important that people talk about this thing because you know, I just the amount of employers have spoken to as oh I didn't realise this was a thing, it doesn't affect us at our work.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, so let's have a look at your stats then, shall we?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: How many women have stayed on within 12 months after coming back?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's then that they go, Oh, okay, this is a thing, and it is important to talk and it is important to be honest about it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: It is hard, it's really hard, and it's okay for it to be hard because you're exhausted, there's all these other things going on, but actually you're finding out who you are as a person coming up from fresh air from the baby bubble, which is an incredible place to be.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you just want to really find out how that new person is whilst being supported by other people.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: How long do you think it takes for people to sort of emerge from this sort of bubble?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I think you know, you feel like you're a little bit underwater, don't you?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like you're trying to swim to the surface.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And how long does it think it takes on average?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what a question.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it takes up to three years for the brain to fully kind of go back into pre-baby ways.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and obviously that also depends on if you're breastfeeding because your hormones go very up and down depending on whether you're continuing to breastfeed or not.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I would probably say around a year, very, very rough, loose average.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Post-maternity leave.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Post-maternity leave.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because your kids are about two then.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think that that's that's the time where, and that's again depending on breastfeeding.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you're still breastfeeding, then your hormones are very likely to still be more baby orientated.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, let's give an average that most people stop breastfeeding at nine months to a year, something like that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Then around that sort of time is where things start to settle down.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: They've been back at work, they've normally found their routine with drop-offs or pickups, all that sort of thing.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Baby is used to being where they're being, and it just becomes a little bit more easier and you feel confident in who you are.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and that can vary.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, that can vary.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've worked with women who I've just had sort of six sessions with in the first six weeks back, and then they feel incredible.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it can absolutely be that quick.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: It just depends on everyone's situation.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And why are they feeling incredible after six weeks?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: What's their secret?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's any secret.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I just think everyone's different, like genuinely everyone's different.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone deals with pregnancy differently, birth differently, parenthood differently.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I speak with some mums who are like born to be Mother Earth, and then I speak with other mums who are more similar to myself, where I'm like, I want to be back at work, I need to be back at work.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't make anyone a good mum or bad mum, or anything like that.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: It just means that they are different human beings.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: So some women are just really buzzing to be back in the swing of things, and it just takes them a bit of time to find their feet, and then they're there.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And other women actually they just miss a baby, they just want to be at home, and that's also okay.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's tough for those women, though.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really tough.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard, and it's sad as well.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is sad because I know that we all say all.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a choice, we've got a choice.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we do, you know, compared to other cultures.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times we don't have a choice because of the cost of living.
• 22:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, most houses need households need two salaries, and really hard.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's sad.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's tough.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is sad.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think the other thing to consider, and something I'm hugely passionate about, is that paternity leave needs to be extended.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't know if you were kind of involved with that parent strike that happened recently, but like paternity, if paternity leave was extended across the board in the UK, yeah, then men and women would be seen so much more as equal from walks of life.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it would just change the culture in as a whole in within the working community, and it would start to help employees to realise that it's not just a woman's job to do everything within the culture system.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is important that both of them do that.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's it's a hard thing because women are forced to leave work.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I say this very loosely, forced to leave work to have a baby and then forced to go back to work after the baby.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then just like you don't know where you're going.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're just like pingballing, aren't you?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's two completely different roles in a lot of situations.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you might be a tough lawyer in your in your day job, like negotiating over multi-million pound budgets, and then to go back and be this nurturing person, you know, puts plaster on their knees and things like that.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Broken up on calls of babies, you like that learning.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's tough.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so about the guilt, because I feel guilt.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about that, weren't we, before we hit record.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the thing that I think follows women around.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think no matter how old their children are.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what would you what advice would you give to women on about the guilt?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, guilt.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there is two different types of guilt.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there's productive guilt, which sounds crazy to have, but then there's disruptive guilt.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the productive guilt is the type of guilt that means you were gonna change behaviour as a result of.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, I felt guilty the other day that I missed my friend's birthday.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's on me.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I dismissed her friend's birthday.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: But that guilt almost felt like a good kind of guilt because I was like, next time I'm not gonna miss that.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've written updates in my calendar, I'm gonna be reminded all that sort of stuff.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the destructive guilt is more the kind of guilt that you get because you've gone back to work after maternity leave, right?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, yes, you feel guilty about that, but are you going to change that?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are, that's fine.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's productive guilt because you realise actually being at work isn't what you want and you do just want to be with your baby.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: However, the majority of people get back to work and they do find actually it's nice to have a sense of themselves, it's nice to use their brains again, it's nice to feel like they're kind of bringing in the income again, all that sort of stuff.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, that's destructive guilt because they're eating away at their self-confidence and their belief in themselves because then they've got they feel like they're being pulled in another direction.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's quite helpful, I find, to understand that there's two different types of guilt because you can you can actually go, okay, I don't mind feeling that guilt because there's a reason behind it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the destructive guilt, that's where you need to essentially, I like to say, talk to your brain.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a huge, huge advocate of this kind of woo-woo, let's actually um kind of headspace mindfulness, that kind of thing.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And a big part of that for me is talking to myself and saying, actually, I don't want to think about that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to think about that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you can eventually, if you keep going after time after time, you're retraining your brain to start believing in yourself, believing in your decisions.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there's still, there's still always going to be an element of guilt, but actually it's a case of I'm not thinking about that because I'm okay.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm okay, I'm doing this for the right reasons.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm doing this for the right reasons.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you continue to do that, then it helps to retrain those neurological pathways to believing that, and therefore you actually eventually start seeing less guilt around you.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: A big like thing, you need to write down your why, and I guess this is your why, why you've returned to it, you pop it somewhere and then it's that reminder, isn't it?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that would definitely help me with the guilt.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: That yeah, returning to why am I, yeah, why am I doing this?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, like one lady I worked with decided that she wanted to return to work because it was her pocket money.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then she was like, she would refer to it as just pocket money.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, okay, what does this just pocket money mean?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, Oh, we get to go for dinners and we get to go on holidays.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, is that just or is that actually living?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that she was like, yeah, you've got a good point there.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is reframing as well that the just thing and thinking of your salary as little or whatever it is.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's incredible that you're working, it's incredible you're showing your family that it's really, really positive to feel good about yourself, to follow your dreams, to be, you know, keeping yourself occupied, all that sort of stuff.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good thing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hers is the memory making money as well.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love reframing it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the memory making, it's the holiday.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: The kids are gonna remember, they're not gonna remember, they don't care that the mortgage is paid or not.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they would care if it wasn't paid, but really they have no idea.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: But they're gonna remember the holiday in the days out.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And all the nice traits.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely, yeah, the memory making pot is um is something I really, really like as well.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, how can people get further support from you then?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: What sort of support do you offer individuals, employers?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I do support individuals, absolutely.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I if if a lady would like to invest in themselves, then they can just reach out to me in LinkedIn, Facebook.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also I think the other way to kind of look at this is that if they are thinking that they would like some additional support and they are concerned about funding, then I can always have a conversation with their management or their HR teams as well.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am a huge, huge advocate of believing that organizations should be paying for this.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that it's their responsibility to really support this transition, retain their female talent through the maternity transition, especially.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if you would like to get in touch about yourself, I'd happily have a conversation, but then I will, you know, more than happily have a conversation with your employer as well.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of businesses, um I'm on LinkedIn, so people can reach out on there.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and essentially the but first thing to do is just have a conversation.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where are you at at the moment?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: What's the reason for you reaching out?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the time I speak to HR managers who think that they've got it all together because they've got great policy, but this is more than policy.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is all about actually bringing action into the business to actively support these individuals through this process.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to do one-to-one coaching for individuals uh again paid for through the organization.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's before, during, and after maternity leave.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I also do support for the managers.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my packages is a welcome back package.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's four sessions for the individual and then one session for the manager.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what that means is I get the opportunity to meet with their manager and understand what they're planning for that transition, what kind of um um objectives and things they've got booked in, all that sort of stuff.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it just means we can really hone in on the really important areas there.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what emotion are we really aiming to support on this particular element?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: How can we really bring the joy into this?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: How can we bring the confidence back?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really working together and ensuring that they have an ecosystem of support around them.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the majority of what I do.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And why should firms invest in this?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, why shouldn't they invest in this is more the question.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I think essentially it's it's a no-brainer at the end of the day.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of ROI, like the cost of recruitment is insane nowadays.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, in order to invest in somebody's mental health and well-being through the maternity transition, to see them flourish and grow, retaining the talent that they have and have had before they had that baby, there's an element, there's an um kind of a small piece of time that means they may be a little bit distracted, but that that just means that they're growing and developing as a person.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: So retaining the female talent is my ultimate goal.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's keep as many women in work who enjoy their work as possible.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: We have so many incredibly talented human beings out there who have been unfortunately pushed out of specific jobs because of the way they felt and emotions connected with the maternity transition.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to put an end to that.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's my goal.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you and me both.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining us today.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we will put all the links in the show notes.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was lovely to chat.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.