Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Creating Vecna for 'Stranger Things' S5 with Barrie Gower | Prosthetic Makeup Department h

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Creating Vecna for 'Stranger Things' S5 with Barrie Gower | Prosthetic Makeup Department h · The Art of Costume Podcast

0:14
I am here of 2026 Emmy nominee for Outstanding Prosthetic
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Makeup, the special makeup effects department head for
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Stranger Things, Barry Gower. Barry, it's so nice to finally
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meet you. I've been a long time fan.
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Thank you. Lovely to meet you, Spencer.
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I just have to say before we get started, one of my all time
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favorite TV episodes, All time Hard Home in Game of Thrones.
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I watch that episode all the time and just go back and your
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work is so integral to the episodes.
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I've been waiting for this interview for a hot minute now,
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so it's a pleasure. Well, Stranger Things has been
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quite a journey for everyone involved.
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Obviously, it's been going on for a few years now, and you
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joined in Season 4, I believe. It's obviously so beloved.
1:00
What has the audience reception been like for you in regards to
1:02
your work and Stranger Things, especially with this incredible
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transformation you created for Jamie Campbell, Bauer and Vacna?
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It's it's, it's been incredible. It's been really overwhelming.
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I think when we joined on Season 4, it was, it was a call
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completely out of the blue from production and the Duffer
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brothers and I, I was a fan of the show.
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I watched the show. My daughter Lottie had been
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watching it for several years. She, she has it on repeat.
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It's basically Stranger Things with friends and it's just
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repeat, repeat. And I, I, I have no idea how
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many times she's watched all of Stranger Things now.
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So she was a huge fan and it was a little bit of a no brainer
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when we got the call and she was like, obviously you need to do
1:53
this. So it was, yeah, it was it was a
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really wonderful surprise to get the call.
2:01
And that was our main task really was when we joined on
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Season 4 was to do this the, the makeup on Jamie.
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And at the time Jamie hadn't been cast, but we had concept
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art and we'd worked, we worked with Michael Mayer, who was the
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concept artist on Season 4, who'd done a really wide range
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of designs for Jamie, well, for, for Vechner.
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And they were all kind of humanoid in shape and form.
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And, you know, season 4, I think was the season that the Duffers
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were quite keen to take this kind of horror tone and
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obviously the 80s homage to horror films.
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And I think they they, they really wanted to take it in this
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kind of Nightmare on Elm Street direction to have this kind of
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pivotal, you know, figure villain that was kind of like
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their their Freddy Krueger. And I think one of the
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conversations they had prior to speaking to us was, you know,
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they, they were fancy Game of Thrones and they, they said we
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kind of want our night King in a way, you know, so they said they
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were kind of like, why don't we just go to the guys who made
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Night King? So that's kind of how we got
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call. You know, it's like we, we, we
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do work all over the world, but it's, it's rare that we travel
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overseas. That is far, you know, from the
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UK to the States. So it's the first time we've
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worked in the States, really. So to get a call out of the blue
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of this hit TV show that we were massive fans already was like,
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you know, it was a bit of a dream come true.
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Yeah. So yeah, we started 20/19 and it
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was just prior to COVID and we took a full body cast of Jamie.
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He came to our studio here in London and we built this kind of
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plaster of Paris copy of Jamie and we were literally just
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pushing clay onto his body when the whole world went into
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lockdown and we shut the doors for three months.
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And Strange Things for the first show.
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We came back to the workshop 1 by 1 and those myself and two of
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our sculptors, well, my kind of partner in crime on Strange
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Things, Duncan Jarman and Pat Foad, who's it's an incredible
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sculptor who's been with us for a few years.
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And we just came back, the three of us.
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And that's when we started modelling the Vecna makeup.
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And we had like a six month period where we did the build of
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Jamie's prosthetics and they were full head to toe
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prosthetics and there wasn't an inch.
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Well, actually his nose was the only visible part, which was
4:36
still Jamie, which we painted black, put some dots on the VFX,
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painted that anyway. But it was, it was kind of like
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the November of that year. We travelled to Atlanta and we
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did a full final make up test on Jamie and it was on a Saturday
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and this was going to be crunch time really.
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Hopefully this was going to work and we we've been in touch and
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liaising with the Duffers throughout the whole year.
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We ran a set of all the prosthetics, we glued them to a
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former of Jamie, we pre painted everything to get the paint job
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and all the colour schemes signed off and we did a makeup
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test in the UK with all the pieces but they weren't painted
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and it was just to make sure everything fit.
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All the weight was fine for Jamie.
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His mechanical hand worked. He was happy with everything and
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all the movement. We were happy with everything,
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but this, the test we did not in the November was the first
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opportunity that we would see everything as a complete unit.
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And it was a camera test and it was the first time the Duffers
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and all production would see him.
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And we did it on Saturday and that first shoot day was going
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to be the following Wednesday. So we were like Oh my God, I
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hope this works. And yeah, please, please,
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please. It was like we spent 10 hours
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gluing this full body makeup on Jamie and I can't remember what
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time we started, but we I think we did the camera test about
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5:00 PM on the Saturday. And there was just this sigh of
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relief when Jamie stepped on and Matt and Ross were really
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pleased and we were just over the moon.
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And and then, yeah, we shot the following Wednesday and we shot
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for a couple of days before Christmas.
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And then his, the rest of the shoot wasn't until the following
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year. But they were like full on days.
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They were approximately 2021 hour days from the point we'd
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start sticking his makeup on in the morning.
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I think we got his makeup down to approximately 7 hours.
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And it was a team of four of us sticking the makeup on, myself,
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Duncan, Mike Mccash. And then at points we had Eric
6:45
Garcia and Nix Herrera. And it was like this little
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orchestrated dance that we did for seven hours, gluing all this
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rubber onto Jamie. And he was a total trooper.
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He's he's one of the most incredible actors and human
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beings. It's like we just hit it off.
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We all had brilliant chemistry. And it's, it's, it's a really
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important thing that it's my wife Sarah and I, we're in our
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company. We did a talk two or three weeks
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ago and we were saying to the audience how one big thing about
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prosthetic makeup that people maybe aren't aware of is that we
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spend probably the most amount of time with an actor in our
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department. Because we will see them at
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whatever time in the morning, 23 AM in the morning, glue all this
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rubber on them, do a whole 12 hour shoot day with them.
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And then it'll take an hour to to take it off in the evening.
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So with the first people they see in the morning, with the
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last people they see when they leave the makeup trailer at
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night. And not only does our team need
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to be exceptional artists, but you need to have chemistry and
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you need to be good people, person people, I guess, and get
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on well with people. And you need to be like a human
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chameleon in a way, and assimilate to different actors.
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And so working with Jamie Campbell Boa is the most amount
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of time I've ever spent with actor.
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So thank goodness he was a nice guy.
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Yeah, I. Mean it's a real serious
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collaboration because you really have to help him find that
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character at the same time too, and you're spending so much time
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together. And that was a really
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interesting part of the process because, you know, we would
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start the make up process and it was Jamie and we would glue him
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into the make up and we would start off, We would be listening
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to a lot of metal, a lot of rock, what have you.
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And the tempo in the music would start getting a little bit more
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faster and aggressive as the make up process went on and as
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all the pieces kind of knitted together.
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It's like, I'd say the last hour or so, when we're airbrushing
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and joining all the dots. Jamie's voice changed, It
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lowered. He became Vechner.
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And as he stepped out the chair, that was it.
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He was, he was Vechner. He wasn't Jamie anymore.
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So it was a really interesting evolution.
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I just got chills a little bit. I can't even imagine.
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But then as we get into the fifth season, it felt like we
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saw an evolution in Vechner. Compared to the previous season,
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he feels more menacing and built and powerful.
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He just kind of has this towering presence.
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When you see him after these years have passed, you could
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just tell that he's almost kind of been stewing in this anger a
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little bit. He's, you know, terrifying.
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So I'd love to hear more about that direction you all took this
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season and perhaps that conversation that led to this
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escalation in Vecna. Yeah.
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I mean, you've hit the nail on the head really, because it was
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that was the real brief was that they wanted him to have a much
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more menacing and a much more feeling of threats this year.
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And it was this kind of larger than life.
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His scale was going to be ramped up.
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And you know, we were kind of saying it was really, it was, we
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call it Vecna 2 point O and it was basically on steroids.
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You know, he was absolutely huge.
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And even though you know, majority of his physical self in
10:07
in season 5 was practical, which it was digitally augmented with
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to, to move his vines and what have you and remove his nose and
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extend his fingers and animate his hand.
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In season 5, it was we were going to have much more of a
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collaboration with the VFX department.
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And I think the balance between practical and digital was going
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to be was going to shift. And I think because his body is
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pretty much, you know, comprised of lots of entwining vines that
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are always animating and he can shoot his arm out and spear
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people. And his actual scale is so huge
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now. And these vines move on his body
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and you can see through Jamie's body.
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So there's all this negative space that we, you know, we,
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there was no way we'd be able to create that practically.
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So it's finding the line of what, what shall we provide this
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time and what can we provide you as the visual effects
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department, which won't inhibit you and make your life a
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nightmare in post production. Because we've been on shows
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before where we will have discussions and we'll bring what
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we think is correct to the table and it's what we've discussed at
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the time. And then in post production, a
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lot of things are painted out or augmented.
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So it's just making sure we don't build twice basically.
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So it was, you know, Matt and Ross were very clear that they
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wanted Jamie's performance to be very practical and in camera.
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So we rebuilt his head and shoulders.
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We went back to the drawing board, re sculpted everything.
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So all the vines, all the shapes were more intensified.
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Everything was a lot prouder and a lot almost a lot more 3
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dimensional in a way. We had all these interlocking,
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interweaving vines and we also did a practical make up for his
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right arm as well so he could interact with actors and I think
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they were very concerned that they wanted him to have a lot of
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dexterity with his right hand as well.
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He kept his left-handed finger extensions as well.
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So we had a bit of a sense of spatial awareness and how long
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his hands were. And we, we made for VFX
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reference really like a kind of a Lycra fabric skin type cat
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suit, which was made with a digitally printed pattern, which
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was basically the colours and shapes of Vecner from season 4.
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We even made some kind of like Vecner sneakers for him, like
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Vecner Nikes that he wore with this patent at the top as well.
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And it, and it was, it was so it would give them colour reference
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and, and really it was so they, they could all, we'll also put
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motion capture shapes on his body as well, so they could
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record it all his movement. When we did our first make up
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test, one thing that we discovered with Jamie, and it's
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actually something that came from Jamie was, you know, we we
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had the 3D design from visual effects and we knew the scale
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and the position of his arms and his legs.
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And when Jamie walked backwards and forwards, he was a little
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concerned that at any one point if he forgot, he might actually
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put his arms close to his side and it would make it difficult
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for them to animate him in post production.
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So we built these little pockets under his armpits and put these
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little foam pads in so he could never close his arms more than
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about that much. So when he walked, he always had
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this menacing kind of gait to him working with Betsy Patterson
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in VFX. And it was like, what can we do
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for you guys? What you know, what can we help
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with? And it's, I think Vecner is a
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really good example of that perfect marriage of practical
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and, and digital effects and Stranger Things, as with Game of
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Thrones and a lot of other shows we've worked on the same with
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The Last of Us as well. It's like we as a practical make
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up effects department, we love working with digital effects as
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well. And I think, you know, in recent
14:08
years, you know, I worked on the Harry Potter films for a really
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fabulous creature effect supervisor called Nick Dudman
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and the guy who did like the darkness makeup in Legends, and
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he worked on Return of the Jedi and countless incredible films.
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But when we started on the Harry Potter films, there were a lot
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of prosthetics. But as we started making our way
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through the like the naughties, 2000 to 2010, visual effects
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became a lot more prominent and a lot more digital characters
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and slightly less practical characters.
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And I think at the time with the Advent CGI, we were starting to
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get a little concerned about how many more, you know, clocks
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ticking, how much longer have we got to do practical effects?
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And as we got towards the end of the Harry Potter series, it
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started to come back to us a little bit more.
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And we ended up doing, we did something like 60 goblins in the
15:04
last Harry Potter film. And we did a lot of practical
15:07
effects. And it was at that point kind of
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mid 2000s, you know, 2015 that I think a lot of productions
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realised that the best results were practical and digital.
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So that's how it's been used to its absolute maximum ability and
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Stranger Things 5. So it was, it was a really
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enjoyable and rewarding process to be part of Season 5.
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Yeah, I believe. I mean, me personally, I believe
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the audience craves that practical touch.
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I mean, I feel like it's very noticeable and finding that
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balance between visual effects and the practical, you know,
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prosthetic makeup. Speaking of that, how many
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pieces do you feel like are involved in a creation of Vecna
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prosthetic wise? I mean, season 5 it was, it was
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still quite a complicated makeup.
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It was about an 11 piece makeup, I think season 5.
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So they're all kind of we, you sculpt it as a whole, we
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separate it all, mold all the pieces separately.
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And then you have an order in which to glue everything on and
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you know, it was the neck went on 1st and the chin.
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Then I think it was the face, all the top of the head and the
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face overlapped over the top of that.
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And we had separate little sections, separate vines.
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And then the hand went on in certain he had to do everything
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in a certain order because everything overlaps.
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It was about, I started off as about a four hour process on
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season 5 because it was mostly head and shoulders and his arm.
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And it was the, I think our team, we managed to get it down
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to about 3 hours on season 5. I mean, again, it was, it was
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like season 5 and season 4 were both technically challenging in
16:45
different ways and I think quite convoluted and complicated how
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his head makeup went together for season 5.
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He had new contact lenses, new dentures as well.
16:55
Season 4 was they were large pieces which all glued and
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overlapped. And we had about 26 pieces I
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think on season 4 and it is like a kind of a patchwork quilt of
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pieces that just everything's pre artworked here in our studio
17:10
in London. So I think for Season 5, Jamie
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played as Vecner on more occasions than he did in season
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4. So every day that he played, we
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had a brand new set of appliances because you remove
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everything, you remove everything with the mineral oil
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and it destroys all the beautiful blending edges which
17:30
are made out of like a vinyl material and you can't reuse the
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pieces. So every single day he plays we
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have all these duplicate sets of appliances.
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So we have a team here meticulously art working and
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matching all the foreheads, all the chins, all the faces, so
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everything is exactly the same colour and tone.
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So when everything's glued together on the day, we have a
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few little gaps where things overlap and then we airbrush and
17:56
paint in fine details just to lock it all together.
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And then we paint Andrew's eyes around the mouth and join it all
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sort of seamlessly. So it's quite a production line
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of pieces. We played like 2530 times, I
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think on season season 5 as Becca and then Jamie, bless his
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heart, had another two or three characters to play as well at
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the same time. I know what certain, you know,
18:25
the Audley and what have you. So it's testament to Jamie.
18:29
I mean his his range as an actor is, you know, insane.
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So. Yeah, this is fantastic.
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Jamie wasn't recognised with a with a nomination this year.
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Actually, I was really surprised because I thought Jamie could
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have come away with the nomination so.
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But he was, yeah, he was a mega star anyway.
18:50
Same. I mean it's, I mean he played
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like you said, like 3 different characters.
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It's kind of unbelievable to me. But you know, that's not for me
18:57
to say I guess. But I wanted to also talk to you
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about color palettes for a bit. What I love about your work is
19:04
just your strong use of color throughout the years.
19:06
You know, Game of Thrones with lots of dark Grays, Blues and
19:09
purples and Last of Us was very earthy nature tones.
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I feel like with Stranger Things, it's almost like this.
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Obviously there's the red and the lighting, but also like this
19:18
kind of like rotting colour palette when it comes to vec.
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Now I was wondering if you could kind of expand on the your use
19:24
of colour when it comes to Stranger Things, right?
19:27
Think about Stranger Things joining so late in in a
19:30
franchise as well, and this character coming from the world
19:35
of the Upside Down. There's already this great
19:37
established palette of colours from the upside down, all the
19:42
roots and all the tendrils and things we've seen already.
19:45
And you know, you've got the demagorgons, the demadogs,
19:48
everything. So that was already one source
19:51
of reference for us. Then we had Michael Mayer's
19:53
concept art as well, which again, you know, was, was a
19:56
great colour source for us. But we actually looked at a lot
20:00
of we, we always use real world reference, usually from the
20:04
animal Kingdom. So we were looking at.
20:08
For translucency, especially in season 5 as well, actually, but
20:12
we look at translucent animals. We were looking at lots of sea
20:16
life stuff. We were looking at like those
20:18
angler fish and all kinds of really bizarre kind of fish and
20:23
underwater animals which have translucent skin and they have
20:27
Blues and purples. We were looking at embryonic
20:30
sacs from animals like horses give birth to foals and they're
20:35
in embryonic sacs. We were looking at all the
20:37
translucency in the veins there as well and we had a huge kind
20:43
of smorgasbord of reference colours that when we actually we
20:46
glued a set of Jamie's appliances to like a former of
20:51
his body and we pre artworked it all.
20:53
So it worked as a master that we could paint all the appliances
20:58
to. And we had all this reference
21:00
open and it just got to the point where we were kind of
21:02
overly complicating it. So I think we narrowed it down
21:05
to about 5 images in the end, and they were all these kind of
21:09
bluey, veiny kind of animals we have like, I don't know whether
21:18
you get them in the States, but you can buy like these potato
21:20
chips that are basically, they're not potato chips,
21:22
they're vegetable crisps and they're like parsnips, beetroot
21:27
and. Veggie straws.
21:29
Orange and I always, I always look at Vechner and think it
21:32
looks like he's made-up of a load of vegetable chips.
21:35
And it's like kind of beetrooty, parsnicky things.
21:39
And it's like there's beetroot, there's the parsnip.
21:42
But yeah, we, we, we draw from all kinds of things really for
21:46
reference. And it's like, you know, the
21:48
Last of Us, we were very lucky that we just used a plethora of
21:51
fungus and, you know, photos, stuff we found online, stuff we
21:55
found in books. But also we, I mean, we, we grew
21:58
our own mushrooms here and we let them rot and we photographed
22:02
them and 3D scanned them over time as well.
22:04
So we had lots of texture reference.
22:06
So yeah, it's, I mean, we did that as well with Vekron season
22:11
5. We were able to, we, we looked
22:13
at roots, we looked at kind of plants and things as well and we
22:19
were able to scan things. But we used 3D technology to not
22:23
only did we sculpt the the head and plastering like a modelling
22:28
wax, but we also use 3D sculpting to generate vines as
22:32
well, which are all interlocked. So since season 4, you know, the
22:36
technology has advanced a little bit.
22:37
So it was great to bring some of that to the table as well.
22:41
Well, I am never gonna look at veggie straws the same anymore
22:45
after this Barry, but thank you for that.
22:50
You spoke of the Demogorgons. I believe you.
22:53
You and your team are also responsible for the practical
22:55
Demogorgon that ends up attacking the kids and gets, you
23:00
know, quite the shock to his life during the season.
23:03
Yeah, we had a, we had a scene on the top of the radio station,
23:06
which was this kind of Frankensteinian scene where the
23:10
the the kids would get basically had a dead Demogorgon and they
23:14
attached these electrodes to it and they would bring it back to
23:17
life. So Will could kind of enter his
23:19
body to get back into the Upside Down to find Vechner.
23:22
And they, it was predominantly going to be visual effects, but
23:26
they wanted a practical prop be there for the cast to interact
23:30
with. And I think when it was static
23:32
at first on top of the radio station, that's our dummy that
23:37
we built. So we, I mean, we 3D printed it
23:41
at all 88 feet of it. We work with a company at Pywood
23:44
Studios here and just 3D printed.
23:48
We made a mould of that and then we had to make a core which
23:53
called the core inside. So it was like a silicone skin
23:55
and had an articulated armature so they could move all the limbs
23:58
around as well. And it was just so great to
24:02
build like a beast and had something like 2000 teeth.
24:08
One of our guys here, bless them, a guy called Will, it was
24:11
his task to to glue all these little 3D printed teeth into
24:14
into the mat and Pickles. And but it was it was what a
24:19
wonderful opportunity to make, you know, a full size demagogue.
24:23
And so that was that was a real win for us as well on season 5.
24:27
So, you know, we got to make a mix of quite a few things.
24:32
You know, there's like a burn, acid burn, makeup, pregnant
24:35
bellies, the loads of wounds and grazes we made for Hopper and a
24:39
few of the characters. So it was quite a nice mix
24:41
really Season 5 so and it was just great to go out on a bang
24:47
really. And just to wrap up you, you
24:49
spoke a little bit about your team just now.
24:51
You share this nomination with a few other people as well.
24:54
Duncan Charman, Michael Makash, Emma Folks, sorry I forgot
24:58
anyone's name's Mispronounced. But why did?
25:00
Why does this collaboration work so seamlessly between you and
25:04
your team and working on a series such as Stranger Things?
25:08
Tell me about your team and the people to help you make it all
25:10
happen. I mean, Sarah and I, my wife and
25:13
I run the company and we've been really fortunate.
25:15
We started 2010 our first big shows, Game of Thrones and
25:20
everybody in the makeup effects industry in London.
25:23
Everybody's self-employed, they're all freelance and
25:25
they'll go and work for lots of different companies.
25:28
We've been really fortunate that we we hired people on that first
25:32
season. We did of Game of Thrones and
25:33
they're still with us now. Emma Fawkes, who's on the
25:36
nomination with us, she was one of the first people we hired.
25:39
I knew her, I met her on Harry Potter and she's now our
25:42
finishing supervisor. She's responsible for
25:45
establishing all the main makeups and paint job colour
25:48
schemes. Duncan Jarman I've known for
25:52
almost 30 years. I met him on Saving Private Ryan
25:56
2019, 97. I've done so many jobs with
26:00
Duncan. We've worked together on so many
26:02
jobs. So and we've we've hired Duncan
26:04
on and off for about 10 years and we kind of, you know, he was
26:09
sort of my right hand man on Stranger things.
26:11
He was responsible for a lot of the sculpting of Vechner and he
26:15
did all the application of Vechner as well on season 4 and
26:18
5. And then Mike Mccash.
26:21
I met Mike years ago with Mike's wife Aaron Kruger Mccash.
26:26
We met them at our first Emmys actually, when we won for Game
26:29
of Thrones and we were up against them on Horror Story.
26:33
And then the following year we were up for Hard Home and they
26:36
beat us with American Horror Story and we had this kind of
26:40
year on, year off relationship with we were like, Oh my God,
26:45
who are these people? Then we met them and the
26:47
loveliest people and, and we hired them for a couple of weeks
26:52
on The Last of Us and, and then we were at another reward show.
26:57
And I said to Mike, we've got this show coming up, which is
27:00
Stranger Things, Would you be interested in joining us from
27:02
the application? And it was like, you know, eight
27:05
months later, he's like, yeah, yeah, whatever, keep in touch.
27:08
We got Mike involved with Vector on Season 4 and then on Season 5
27:14
his wife Aaron became makeup department head and and then
27:19
Mike was makeup department Co head prosthetics.
27:23
So it was, you know, just a really wonderful experience to
27:29
work with your friends, you know, and that's kind of what
27:31
makes it dynamite and the whole thing work really.
27:34
So but we're super lucky and grateful to have an amazing team
27:39
here at our company. It's called BGFX is the company
27:42
and we've just got this world class group of artists who we
27:47
count our lucky stars every day to be working with them.
27:49
So very. Yeah, that's incredible.
27:53
And it just shows on screen that that collaboration between all
27:56
of you, it just works so seamlessly and it looks
27:58
beautiful on screen. As always, Barry,
28:01
congratulations on the nomination.
28:03
I'm so grateful that you're able to join us.
28:06
And I'm, as always, looking forward to see what's coming up
28:08
next. Thank you for joining.
28:09
This has been awesome. Thank you.
28:12
Thanks a lot, Spencer. Lovely to meet you.
28:14
The Costume House with Spencer Williams is a production of The
28:17
Art of Costume. This episode was hosted,
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produced and edited by Spencer Williams.
28:22
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