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The Owner's Room: When Slowing Down Feels Like Losing Ground [with Dr. Jeremy Sharp] · Integrity at Scale™

• Hi, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper here, and you're listening to the Culture Focused Practice podcast. Thank you for being here with me. Thank you for joining me. Today, marks my favorite type of episode, the owner's room. The focus is slowing down and this is the first time in the entirety of this podcast that I have a guest on. Yay. Okay, so joining me is Dr. Jeremy Sharp, who I met randomly from Facebook and we just hit it off, like, met talked shop, hit it off. So it's just awesome that he's here with me. And lemme just tell you real quick about him. So Licensed psychologist director at the Colorado Center for Assessment, which is a multimillion dollar private practice. There is a focus on psychological and neuropsych evals with kids in adolescents. That was founded in 2009 and it was right- sized about a year ago, which we're gonna talk about today as part of the slowing down conversation. He's also, as you very well, may know the host of the Testing Psychologist podcast, and also a consultant for clinicians. I feel like those things go hand in hand, like podcasting and consulting. So he does a lot of private practice coaching for psychologists and other mental health professionals who want to start or grow assessment services in their practices. Lastly, most importantly, not really, but lastly, in 2020, he partnered with a software developer to co-found Reverb, which is an AI report writing platform for testing psychologists. And this helps with writing faster and better reports, and I think it goes without saying, but getting their time back for what matters most. So really awesome. Jeremy Rocks. I'm super happy he's here. Welcome Jeremy. I'm glad to have you here. Thank you for being here with me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to be here and honored to be the first guest. That's incredible. The first one, I had no idea. Oh my gosh. A little dressed up. This is exciting. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So as you all may know or not know, this is the owner's room. So this is, a space where we don't have any perfect answers and none of this is scripted and we basically just get real about what it's like to lead a practice. So this episode is all about emotional whiplash of choosing to slow down or related to choosing to slow down. So basically when you finally pause and then you immediately question, what the fuck am I doing? Like, what have I done? Why am I not doing more? Why am I not working more or harder or later or longer? Or fill in the blank. So we are basically going to unpack the mental noise just by virtue of having a conversation about things and talk about what it takes to hold stillness without losing your center. Before we go further, hit subscribe. The more you like this, the more you subscribe, I should say. If it resonates with you, the more it reaches like-minded people who also need the same message. So thank you in advance. Let's do it. The agenda item, we have two items on the agenda. One is that we're gonna go through a series of questions. We have not practiced. Two, we're gonna do a little scenario, and so we'll do a real life scenario and then talk through maybe how we might handle this if it came up. So, boom. You ready, Jeremy? Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. Because you are the guest, I'm gonna ask questions and I'll probably have you talk first, but then we'll just go from there. Yeah. Great. All right. Okay. Question number one. What does falling behind in quotes actually mean to you? And is it true? Yeah. Yeah. These questions seem so simple when I read 'em on the paper and now all of a sudden it's complicated. Yeah, yeah. What does falling behind mean to me? To me there, yeah. There's a couple components of falling behind. So there's sort of big picture falling behind of, Hey, I'm not doing enough in terms of visioning for the business there. You know, I'm not making big plans. I don't have any like grand, grand projects in the works or anything like that. Um, so sort of a, maybe you call it complacency around leading, but then there's also the day-to-day falling behind for me, which is too many emails in the inbox and not responding to people on time. And, um, you know, maybe I'm not doing things that I said I was gonna do by a certain date, or whatever it may be. Mm-hmm. And so there's all of that, and I don't know if that's, you know, if, uh. practical pieces like that are able to be separated from the emotional piece, but there's also an emotional component of just like, feeling behind and like, I'm just not doing enough somehow. Mm-hmm. So, uh, it's all those things for me. What about you? Yeah, you know what, um, there's two thoughts that I have as you said that I think that enoughness, I don't know if that's like an entrepreneurial thing or like a, a certain type of person thing, but I absolutely relate to that sense of like, Ooh, this, I haven't done enough. Like just enoughness in general. I question if I'm doing enough for my team, if I not usually related to my own effort or maybe like my own work, unless I, let's say have a three day stretch where I'm like busy and I can't get any work done, I start to get like this pint up energy. Like I need an output. Like I need something to focus on to, you know, chew on. So I, but I do think there's something about like the enoughness piece, but there was something else that, um, came up for me as you were talking related to like the inbox and the emails. I think it was Cal Newport. I think you know that I love Cal Newport, if you don't mm-hmm. I'm Remind, yeah. I love Cal Newport and maybe in deep work he wrote about this guy, I don't even, I don't remember the name, but or his name, excuse me. He wrote about this guy who maybe he was some sort of like scientist, like a physicist or something, you know, he is just intentionally, um, intentionally inept. Like he, he's like, no, I'm, I'm really bad at committees. I'm, I shouldn't be on this one. He, like, on purpose is Oh, mm-hmm. Bad at doing things uhhuh because he knows the value of spending time thinking and working and producing. Mm-hmm. In terms of like concepts and content for what he actually wants to do. Like all of these other things take him away from what he. Is most valuable doing. And I, it made me think about that with your inbox where you said sort of like, I need to be responding more. I'm, maybe I'm not responding enough in this way. And I, you know, I feel like the joke at my own practice, I don't even think it's a joke, it's for real, is my inbox is my bane of my existence. And sometimes that's by design where I will not respond because mm-hmm. I can't do this. Like, I have other shit that I need to be doing. Obviously urgent things need to be responded to, you know, so that's a little bit different. But if something's not urgent, then I just, I'll get back to it, you know, like, I'll, I'll go later. And I feel like the, the more I practice that thing, I don't feel as bad now as I used to about it. Mm-hmm. I'm like, no, they'll be fine. They can wait a few days. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think Cal Newport is also the one he said that you also, I love that guy. Yeah. Um, that you train people how to interact with you over email, and if you respond right away, that just tells 'em you're gonna respond right away and they'll keep emailing you and expect you to respond right away, so. Mm-hmm. Sounds like you have, you're training people and the right way I've Yeah. Training people and then putting the right people, you know, like having people around me Yeah. Where I'm like, this isn't me. Like, boop, go, go talk to them. Like, I don't. Yes, yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, you have. Mm-hmm. I'm sort of jumping, I think maybe, well, I don't actually know if I am jumping, maybe this is the point of the structure is we're gonna go where it goes, but it makes me think about your right sizing and how I can say now, well, I have an integrator and I have a DCO and I have a marketing director, and so anybody who comes to me with anything that falls in their camp, I'm immediately gonna kick that can over. Like, this is not, this does not belong to me. Mm-hmm. But if you Right sized, what roles did you get rid of mm-hmm. If any. And then also, like, did that impact the way you show up in your work life? If, if that makes sense, like mm-hmm. In terms of your availability, uh, to others. And then also maybe that the notion of like falling behind, like, I, I think I'm asking a question. Yeah. There's a question in there somewhere. Right? There's definitely stuff to respond to. So I'll go, yeah, I'll go with that. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Um, yeah, so we went from, you know. Just for folks who don't know, which is probably a lot of folks that we Yeah peaked at probably 40 plus employees and practitioners and all that. And so we had like a kinda a three tier leadership team. You know, I was the visionary, you know, we had our second, like our kind of directors level and then we had, we called them coordinators, you know, underneath the directors and um, and then supervisors. So yeah, I mean there was a lot of leadership in place before this right sizing, which happened about a year ago, and I got rid of all that. So now I'm our director and that's it. So I'm the director and then everyone just works, you know, everyone's just like a team member. And, um, we have, I mean, we still have clinical supervisors and, um, we have one person who is, uh, we call, you know, her title is coordinator, but she does a little bit more sort of like, um, higher level stuff, but mm-hmm, um, but yeah, I got rid of a lot of that and. You know, it's been interesting. Um, on the whole, I think it's been a really good thing, but there was a trade off for sure, which mm-hmm. I kind of made peace with around, I do more tasks now, like I had to absorb some of those roles that were Yeah. Occupied by leadership. Yeah. But. It still, I still feel like I'm working less and with a lot less stress for sure. So, yeah, I took back some of those tasks, like some of the integrator tasks for sure. Mm-hmm. Um, little bit of supervision, you know, so I'm more available to my team now than I'm was, you know, before. Mm-hmm. Before the rightsizing. Um, but it also adds a little bit more, and that's where I get in trouble sometimes For not getting things done or for exactly like falling behind. I mean, logistically falling behind, I guess. Mm-hmm. I don't, yeah. I don't know if you struggle with this. I definitely struggle with this. Like, I want to be the one to, um, help people and like be useful and like solve people's problems and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. And so, um, it's like a constant. Mm-hmm. Trap slash awareness that I have to have to be like, should I actually be doing this? Or am I just doing this? So I will be like, useful and thereby valuable to someone, you know? Oh my gosh. Yep. Yeah, all the time. I think like, is this actually valuable for other, is this actually, am I being of service? Am I being useful? Am I, you know, um, I don't, is this what ends up happening for you? And I'm asking because this is typically the, it's not foot in mouth, but it's probably cart before horse. It's the shit that I always end up doing to myself where I step in early or I sort of inject myself. And then by nature of stepping in, it's almost like I've put a, i, I am like then a shelf that exists and then people start stacking shit on top. I'm like, Ugh. Now I'm carrying all of this stuff where I shouldn't even be in this room. Like this shelf doesn't belong with this decor. Like, go, you know, what are you doing, Tara? But I, I end up. Making myself a a, like I'm part of this function all of a sudden. Where? Why? Because I just wanted to be Well, I can, I can help. No bitch. No, you shouldn't help. Get out, get out. Mm-hmm. And stay out. I'm just kidding. Right. To myself. So is that the thing you're talking about? Or does yours look different? Yeah, yeah. No, it's putting myself into places that I really shouldn't be, um, doing things, you know, where I could easily offload it to our office manager or our scheduling team or something like that. But I just insist on having some amount of involvement and, you know, jump, I'll jump in and oh, I can take care of that. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that's, that doesn't, doesn't make sense, but I do it to feel useful, I think, because then it gets back to your one of our other questions, which is like, feeling agitated when I'm not doing something and so mm-hmm. Maybe a Yeah. Defense against, yeah, stillness. Something which is agitation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that's actually a good segue into question two, I think, which is what emotions do you associate with slowing down? Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, we used the term agitation a minute ago, and that feels pretty relevant. Yeah, I mean, I do feel agitated, restless, um, can be frustrating at times. Uh, you know, there's, there's kind of two sides to it though. Like, initially still ness maybe feels pretty good, like maybe for, I don't know, a couple hours or maybe a day, you know, something like that, Uh, but then it gets a little uncomfortable or a lot uncomfortable, and then I have to, yeah, then it's really tough. It's really tough to sit with all of that and just. Feel bored. Um, let me tell you, can I tell you a little story though? Um, just as a side note and then we'll see if this relates at all. But, so this was 18 months ago at this point. So December of 2023, I decided to like purposefully go away for four or five days, and I promised myself that I would not do any work whatsoever. It was all just to kind of reflect on what's going on in the practice. Um, what do we need? This was pre right sizing, but you know, it was a big part of mm-hmm. That whole process. So, I mean, I spent four or five days by myself not working, which is I. I've never done that. I have never done that. Yeah. Like what just happened for you when I said that? Yeah. Holy shit. I'm like, oh God. That's why I go away to work. Like so I can work unencumbered and uninhibited and just follow whatever work whim I have. So the idea of going away and not like, ugh, that would be really difficult to do. Like really, really hard to do. It was brutal. It was brutal. Yeah. And the whole point, you know, it was almost, it wasn't like a meditation retreat, obviously. Yeah. But you know, it was some, it was kind of like that. But, so I have, you know, I took notes or like kind of journaled most of the time and it was all just like, this is really hard. I want to be doing things that I feel useless. This is a waste of time. Like, you know, it was startling to see like all the negative, you know, like everything that came with that. Um, and. Ultimately it was great. I think it was helpful, but I think it ties into what we're talking about. So those are the feelings that come up when I think about stillness. That is so funny. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Um, I, this is where I start to get, like, be curious about, um, uh, like trait and personality and like, what is that thing? Like obviously, you know, you're sort of mentioning like, I wanna, you know, the, the feeling useful and I think you mentioned previously on, on outside conversations, but about productivity, which probably is not a shock related to like feeling useful and being a value feels like they're all like, it's like a latent, there's a latent variable there. They're all sort of like circling around the same thing. What is that thing? Is there something about, like, is there something about diligence within conscientiousness, is there something about, um, I don't know, like I'm, it just makes me wonder, like, I'm just curious about what is that, what is that thing? And if there wasn't work, for example, would there be another outlet? And then for someone like you, or let's say we both relatively fall in that camp, what, how do you do something like benefit from slowing down and still, you know, like acknowledge that part of you is never gonna feel comfortable in that space, even if it's beneficial. Like it doesn't ever physiologically match with your internal state. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. Such a weird mix. Like it's such a weird sort of conundrum to be in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, we could. Go any number of directions with that. I mean, God. So personality wise, I mean, what is that? It's I person, for me, I know there's a mix of neuroticism and conscientiousness, like maybe play a role. Um, yeah, because I feel like I, yeah, I'm like always having to like, just get things done for, it's a lot of like, for people, you know, there's, it's like tasks for people. Um, but then, gosh, at the risk of being too much of a psychologist, you know, I mean it all goes back to family of origin, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh like, I think, you know, that was definitely how I was sort of recognized within my family growing up was like being helpful. And, um, there wasn't a lot of resting. I. There was always something to do. You know, I grew up with a kind of like a chronically ill parent, you know, who mm-hmm required I guess, a lot of support, you know, and so there was no, there was no resting. Mm-hmm. And so that's probably playing into it and, you know mm-hmm. That's, that's, mm-hmm. There's a lot going on there. But yeah. It's all, yeah, to me, like value and self-worth and that kind of stuff. Like Yeah. You know, when we get right down to it, I'm probably like, you know, if I'm not being productive or like getting things done, then what value am I bringing to anything? Yeah. That's so wild. Yeah. Especially, especially, again, like in the context of this, this episode particular sort of this notion of slowing down. This is not a question for right now, I don't think, but it sort of makes me think about when something like slowing down for example, pushes directly up against like something like either a core wound or a maybe a, a core sort of relatively static trait, you know, or some sort of trauma or like what do you, what do you do? You know, there's this weird again. 'cause you think, okay, well slowing down has benefits. And potentially, like you're saying 18 months ago you had this four or five day, not meditative retreat, but like self imposed retreat where you didn't allow yourself to work. And my question in my head as one of the questions is you were talking was like, oh, I wonder if that's a huge part of the decision to right size or if the right sizing realization maybe came from that stillness came from not allowing yourself to really work. Like you're just sort of sitting and potentially thinking, and then six months later now you're, you're making this big shift, like you're making a huge shift that influences a bunch of other people, but is what is best for you and the remaining people at the group. And so, um, yeah, I think maybe it sort of makes me wonder, okay , if you hadn't done that thing, would you still be with a 40 person team, for example, would you have realized at that juncture that you needed to right size, like this is what was best. Mm. Or do you, you know, like hypothetically it would've happened at some point in the future, but do you think it helped, do you know what I mean? Do you think it helped that mm-hmm. Come to fruition or helped clarify that for you to be able to sit in that stillness? Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. It definitely clarified it and accelerated it. Yeah. I mean, I think before that I had maybe considered the possibility of right sizing, but doing that, you know, that time away really helped to clarify that and mm-hmm. Made it more real and I was able to think through what it might look like and just recognize Yeah. Yeah. What it was like to not feel, um, completely overwhelmed, stressed out. Yeah. Goodness gracious. Yeah. Okay. So then how about this? Um, I have another question. Mm-hmm. And I think this is a little bit, I think it's related to what you just were saying, but whose expectations are you carrying when you can't let yourself pause? It feels like an extension of what we're just talking about. I think that's where I'm like, Ooh, let's, I wanna ask this. Let's go here. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. It's a, that's a tough one. 'cause I, I don't know that there are explicit expectations. I do think it. It is tied up a lot into kind of family, family of origin stuff, right? Mm-hmm. So, I don't know, we're like going deep on this podcasts, but, you know, it's, I think that's, I mean, I think that's a big part of it. Yeah. Now, I didn't grow up with like, explicit expectations from my parents necessarily. They weren't like, you know, you have to get straight A's, or you have to be super, you know, productive or, you know, they weren't definitely, weren't like tiger parents or anything like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but the implicit expectation was like, you're available at all times. Like for family stuff, um, we need you to like, take on a lot of responsibility. We need, you know, that's just like the role that mm-hmm. Was kind of needed. Um, and so then that got wrapped up in, yeah. I think maybe my own expectations along the way of like, I have to, you know, maybe you know this as a business owner, it's like once you reach. You just keep stepping up and up and up and mm-hmm. If there's not another up, it, you know, can feel kind of disappointing or disconcerting. Oh yeah, disconcerting. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, there's nothing there. Like, so it has to be created or, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then the last component is probably the team, you know, eventually, like as the practice grew, there got to be, you know, I felt like there were expectations from the team, not that anyone had mentioned and you know, in fact, I would ask my team, like, do y'all think I'm lazy? Like, is it okay? Oh my gosh. Like, you know, do you, you know, like, I feel like I'm not doing anything, is that, and they would always be like, what are you talking about, Uhhuh? You know, that's an insane person's statement. Like, Yeah. So then there was like expectations from the team that were totally unfounded, so. Mm-hmm. I don't know, it's a little bit of all that. Mm-hmm. Wrapped up. And what about for you? It's such a mind fuck. Yeah. It's so funny, uh, you saying that I'm thinking about our last, 'cause you know, we operate on EOS and mm-hmm. For those listening, Jeremy's very familiar. I think to an extent they're still EOS that lives in your practice. If not, it's like full-fledged. Yeah. Um, maybe it was at our last quarterly, so it would've been, God, what month are we in? It would've been January-ish. We're kicking off, you know, the two day. And I think I said something about, is this enough? Like, are we doing enough? Is this, is this good for this year? Like this one year plan really? Is that enough? And both my integrator and my DCO were all like, yeah, yes. Yep. Tara, this is good. Like, no, don't take on anymore. Just stop. Mm-hmm. Just stop, get some help, you know? I think my perception of enough is just totally fucked. yeah, I don't have any concept of, I, I, I genuinely don't, like, I have no concept of what's too much. So I'm like, we can do that. That's easy. That's, we can do that. We can get that thing done. Right. Okay. Like, yeah. My wife and I talk about this fairly frequently. She's also a therapist and an entrepreneur. You know, she has a practice and podcast and all that stuff. Um, so we have a totally skewed perspective, but sometimes we're like, like, are there, what are normal people like? Like are there people out there who just go to work and like work for six or eight hours a day and then come home and are like, cool, let's relax and yeah, let's hang out. I'm pretty content. Does that happen? There's this, um, comedian. Tim Dylan, I don't know, I don't know how I know this, but I remember like listening to a clip of him. He was like talking about how your average person, they're gonna work nine to five, they're gonna get off, they're gonna go to Buc-ee's, buy a six pack of beer, go home and hang out for the weekend. And it was sort of like this, um, oh my gosh. That is such a crazy concept to me. Like the idea that you people, a lot of people I think, I think that a lot of people do feel comfortable doing that. Just sort of chilling and like, and not that they're, uh, settling in terms of like, you know, you need to reach harder, but like, literally feeling internally settled, feeling comfortable with either slower movement or stillness or mm-hmm. Not like intense pursuit of something, an intense whether like emotionally intense or just like logistically, physically, like, you know, running after something intense. I can't, I feel like I sprint at life and I'm like mm-hmm gorging myself in the process while I'm sprinting, like on everything I can get my hands on, which is a weird problem to have because it's also incredible, but not always sustainable. And so, yeah. I do not think that you are probably the norm. I do not think that I'm probably the norm either, like, right, yeah. No shade and judgment also at people who I fucking wish I could, I wish I could just be fine with a nine to five, like working a normal quote, normal job, and I wish I could, I don't have it in me. Same. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't exist. So. I don't know if I checked in with you about Yeah. Where that's coming from, like personality stuff or some other influences. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. I don't, this is where, for me, um, I feel like I'm not a real therapist sometimes because there's so many therapists. I would say even like the education we get is, um, social pressures are like the most, I would say, it seems like they are more important than, let's just say, like biological or genetic tendencies. I don't know if I agree with that. I think that there's obviously social pressures that influence everything about us in terms of even the way I think some of our, our phenotypes, some of our gene expression, which is in fucking incredible, you know? But , I, I feel like it's inside of me, like , I've never been sort of pressured to move. I just, as a child, I, you know, my mom will tell the story where. It's like kindergarten. My first day of kindergarten I'm getting dropped off by the preschool van 'cause I was at KinderCare and KinderCare is where I went and I get dropped off and I'm like, I literally just take off sprinting outta the bus. And Miss Debbie was like, Tara, do you know where you're going? And I like over my shoulder yelled back, no. And I just kept running that has like, how do you like what social pressure is getting this 5-year-old to like sprint in the direction of something without having any concept of what is happening or where she's going. That's just me in a nutshell. Like the epitome of me. Like growing up, constantly busy, constantly doing something and it didn't ever feel like too much. I never felt like I need to stop. I need to slow down. I just, I like being busy. I like doing things that I enjoy doing, of course. It will reach a fever pitch, it will reach a threshold where it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, this is too much. And I have to, like, I had to learn to recognize that threshold and then also realize how and where to scale it back. But I don't know, I don't feel like it's social for me at all. I feel like that's maybe a cop out answer. And again, I'm always worried about saying something like that where I don't know if it's social. 'cause I feel like sort of a social pariah for voicing that out loud. So is that the most non-answer I've ever given? Did I answer that question back? I think I'll go with it. I think it's fine. Okay. I think it's totally okay. Good. No, I went, I think there's something with that. I think there's innate, yeah. We come out with something, we come out of the with something. Something. Mm-hmm. I know that's true for my kid. I mean my kids are, have been different from day one. You know? That's wild. You can make arguments. So we raise them differently, but it's not that different, I don't think. And yeah, they are incredibly different personalities. Yeah. So there's something for biological determines There's there's gotta be something. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not entirely biological determinism, but like, you know, I'm not a genetic essentialist. I'm not that. Oh gosh. Yeah. But I'm also not a total, like social conformity or social pressures influence everything. It's like, if I could make my child do anything, I would love to, like, I wish I had control. Okay. Abrupt shift to another question. Hmm. Which one? I'm gonna read these, but I feel like we've kind of talked about them. What part of your identity feels most threatened by rest? Sort of the, the flip side of the coin of like, we feel compelled to do things, but is that the same as like there's a part of you that feels threatened by the idea of rest? Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's, I'm trying to go back to like a consistent identity. I. I think I have always had some identity as an achiever for sure. Mm-hmm. I mean, like I said earlier, my parents never like, pressured me to get good grades, but I always did and I loved it. And that was my, that was a big identity for a long time. Mm-hmm. So, you know, if anything that, that's what jumps to mind right away is, you know, if I'm not, if I'm being still, like, what am I achieving? And of course the answer is like, well, you don't need to always be achieving, but mm-hmm. I, you know, that's the identity to me that feels threatened the most. And then of course, like right underneath that is like, well, if you're not achieving, then how are you valuable to anybody or anything? Oh my gosh. And so, you know, yeah. Those, those run in tandem. But as far as identities go, I think, yeah, the, the achiever is. Pretty, pretty high up there. Yeah. Are I forget, are you, you're type three? Enneagram? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Feel like I, you know, I like the Enneagram. I think it's fun, but I, you know, I, it's not efficacious. Like, it's fun. It's, you know, it's cool. Yeah, like, I'm so, yeah. I'm glad to hear you say. Yeah. I mean, I, I feel it's not, there's no research. There's no research behind it. There's no research. There's no research. Sorry, everybody. I'm sorry. Yeah. There's no research behind the Enneagram, but it is fun. Yep. It is still fun. It's still fun. I still will think, ask people like, are you a three? You know, I'll, like, I still mm-hmm. You know, it's, it's, yeah. So, um, again, I feel like now we made ourselves both social pariahs. You've joined the club. Yeah. The social pariah club. Yeah, so achievement based for you, that's the identity that feels most threatened? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it's also, it's gotten complicated over time too. 'cause like the more you achieve, I feel like more has kind of come along with that, you know? Yeah. Where. It was a big part. Uh, that right sizing was really, really hard from an identity perspective, you know, because I had become kind of known in our community as like, Hey, this person with this large practice, and wow, like, you're doing all this, you know, look at everything that you built and all that. I don't know what the identity for that is, but, um, it, it was definitely threatened. Like I was, I had to wrestle with that a lot. Like, what are people gonna think of me? Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna be special anymore. Like, who? Nobody's gonna care, you know? Yeah. Um, it's all just ego stuff, but, um, but it was real, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, you're gonna be a failure. People are gonna say, or, you know, all that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That is so bringing something up for me. Um, I, but even before that, my thought is like, holy shit. That is a huge thinking of like, being useful, being valuable to others. Um, the achievement sort of identity piece. I didn't even think about how difficult it must have been to actively step away and almost, I think cut your practice in half . Mm-hmm. That like, wow. I feel like it's sort of hitting me in a different way. Hearing you say that, that is a huge, like a huge shift. That's a huge shift. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially with those factors. Yeah. Yeah. With those, yeah, with those pieces. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's something, well, you know, you're in this community, like you go to conferences and stuff and Yeah. People are like always like measuring practice sizes. Right. You know? Oh yeah. It's like, oh, how many employees? You know, what's your practice like? Yeah. And I mean, there is a lot wrapped up to be like, oh, we're 40, 45, you know? Yeah. And now it's like 15 just under, you know? Yeah. It's like, yeah. Yeah. On purpose. It's like intentionally have to like give the qualifier on purpose. I chose 15. Mm-hmm. Like, this is the number that I want. Yeah. I think I've had people not work with me because I didn't have a big enough practice, which is funny to me because even at my size, like the way the structure I, our infrastructure is so just spot on. So it's, it, it holds clout. It's like having a PhD and I know plenty of people with PhDs who are, you know, they're assholes , but that's not very nice to say, even if it is true. And, um, it still holds weight. Somebody sees PhD or they see MD and it's like, oh my god. You know, it's, there's some like weight behind it. Yeah. Prestige. Yeah. Some prestige. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think there is something to be said for like the size of the practice when somebody's actively asking you about things, there's maybe not judgment in a negative way, but some sort of like judgment or assessment of you based on your extension. You know, this extension of you, your group practice that you own and run and the number of people that are a part of it. . Yes. Yeah. That's interesting. I don't, I was trying to think, I don't know what ident identity, what part of your identity feels most threatened by rest? I don't know. It's the part of me that likes to sprint and gorge myself on life. Mm. I feel like if. If I don't do that, it will never happen again. I will never sprint again. I will never gorge myself on life if I'm not doing it. Like, it's really hard, that part of me anyway, you know, the whole Oprah thing, like you can have friends and family and health and career, but not all at once. Or like the two burner theory, or is it two or four burner theory? I think the two burner theory, and I'm like, why can't I have all four burners on at once? Like, what's the problem? I never do. I literally can't, but I still, I'm, I'm gonna have all four burners on at once. No bitch. No, you're not. Like, just stop. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's really hard for me to accept the fact that I won't have all four burners on at once and, or at least for that part of me, and even if I do, it's almost like it doesn't exist in a month. Like, it's back to four burners. I'm using 'em all, you know. So I don't know if that's some of like the A DHD stuff for me, sort of this like, uh, I've talked with people before about, I feel like I'll build a system and in my mind, this is why I also need people around me. In my mind, it's like I'm building a sandcastle right next to as shore, but I don't realize that's what I'm doing. I walk away from it and I come back and I sort of see remnants, but I'm like, I don't even remember what this was. And then I build it up again and it basically looks the exact same, but, i had to build it again, like I have to build it again. It's like once I walk away from something, it almost feels like it loses its shape and form. And so I'll say to myself, Hey, four burner theory or two burner, you know, you can only, you can only do two things at once. And there's a voice in the back of my mind that's like, fuck off. Now. You can do more. You can do more, you can do all the things. And I'll say, okay, but really, like, you can only do a couple things at once. And let's say I, I decide to do those couple things, whatever they might be. In a month. I'm having the exact same conversation with myself. So it's almost like I'm, God, I'm building that sandcastle again. Like, oh my gosh, here we go again. Like, lemme build this up. Maybe I can do all four. Nope. Still can't. So it's like, I'm almost like working against myself. I mean, that's just it. Like I'm, this part of me that wants to sprint and gorge myself on life. And then also that part feels threatened for sure. I don't even know what that is. Yeah. I feel like. I was trying to think of an identity for that. Yeah, almost. I don't know. It doesn't feel existential. I don't know if it's, I'm, Okay. As I'm talking, I'm thinking part of it probably does have something to do with the sandcastle thing. Like it's hard to hold forms in my mind if they're not in front of me, and so, which fucks up my sense of time and I already think that time is nonlinear anyway. So my concept of time is just shot, period. And then, you know, it's nonlinear so it doesn't matter, but mm-hmm. Then I like go, I go back to a thing that I just visited, let's say a week ago, and it feels like it's been six years and a thousand miles. You know, like, it's like, oh my God, it's been forever since I've done this thing, but it hasn't been, so this like, not having a good concept of time, not holding shape and form in my mind if it's not like in front of my face. And then also wanting to like sprint and gorge, you know, it, it's like the perfect, perfect. It's like this great, this great combination of things that I, I don't know what to do with. So maybe it's like a DHD is part of it, like just, it feels like, right. Like it's like maybe some of this is a DH ADHD and then also, you know, a, a tendency to want to move. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like you would be yourself if you were more, uh, still or, uh, I don't know. Like, is there a version of yourself that can do that or, you know, is that kind of, or is it just kind of built into your Yeah. That's funny. Um. Be perpetual. . Yeah. I can be still, um, it works best if I'm by myself. Like I, if it's hard to be still when my kids are around and even if my husband or there's like a dog in the space with me, like any energy immediately sucks half my attention. Even if they're quiet. I'm just sort of aware of this other thing, you know? Mm-hmm. And so when I'm by myself especially, I can just sort of breathe and like be, um, there was a second thought I had though it was the stillness piece. It also works best when I feel satiated about something. Like a concept, like I've been able to grapple with a concept and like to, its full completion, now I can breathe. Yes. So it doesn't feel like I need to achieve this thing. It feels like my, my brain has trouble letting it, I feel like it, I'll reference myself sometimes as like a dog with a bone. You know? I'm like trying to get all the marrow out of this bone once it's done. Like, all right, I'm good. I can, yes. Fucking chill. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Until I get excited about bringing it to actual fruition. And then, you know, we're off to the races again, so. Yeah. Right. There's that. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, I connect with that, um, pretty deeply. Yeah. There's something, something around like, I have to reach some some level of, I mean, of a, that's a good word for it. Satiation. Yeah. Satiety. Yeah. Satiety. Would be satiety. I don't know. I don't know. I'm making things up. I dunno. I may be made up. Satiated. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, yeah. Kinda relax a little bit. Yep. Especially like in the conceptual piece. The tasky stuff makes me agitated, but the conceptual stuff is where I, like, then I feel I can feel really satiated from that sort of thing. Nice. Yes. Yeah. Which is funny. Yeah. 'cause I think you're good with tasky stuff. Yeah. Probably too good. I mean, that's where, yeah. I talk about or think about false productivity a lot where I can do That's funny. Lots of tasks, and they may or may not, I mean they're, uh, I don't think I waste time, but they're not like huge, like big meaningful tasks. Again, like Cal Newport would talk about. It's . Knocking out emails and taking care of little things here and there. It makes me wonder, you're probably one of those people who's really good at both visionary and integrator, like being a combo of the two. Like of the people, you know what I'm saying? Like of the people to, mm-hmm. be a V slash I combo, and I know Gino Wickman talks about this in Traction at some point where, or maybe it's in Rocket fuel mm-hmm. Where it's a very small percentage of people who do this well. And you know, he talks about, I think one guy, or he writes about one guy who was both visionary and integrator and just was able to do that for 20 plus years and grow the business and, you know, like do these other things. It would, it makes me think that you're probably one of those people then you're probably somebody who does both well, that you can hold sort of these conceptual, bigger visions, whatever that might look like, whatever they might look like. And then also integrate, be the integrator, bring things to completion from a task oriented, you know, tasky place as well as like conceptual. Hmm mm-hmm. Yeah. Maybe so. Maybe so. I can't say I've really tried, but I can't, I I am, I am tasked and uh, sure. Oriented and deadline oriented, I mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think, That's almost actually, I mean, I'm kind of doing that now in our practice, uh, in a way because we don't have an integrator. So You're both, yeah. It's like you literally, you're like, you are both, you are the visionary, but also you're doing integrator type things. Like you're the point person and the mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Okay, let's, you wanna do this scenario we've been on for a little while. I think, uh, mostly I'm aware of your own time. I don't want to keep you here forever. We're gonna jump. Yeah. Let's jump to the scenario. All right folks. So for the scenario, if you have listened before, you already know I'm gonna read a scenario and then we are just going to talk about it. So bear with me. You have just wrapped up a major hiring cycle. I. Onboarded, two new team members implemented a new process for clinical reviews and hit your quarterly goals. Whoop, whoop. Everything is working. But now there's quiet, no fires, no chaos, no deadlines, and yet you feel agitated. You start rewriting your to-do list fixing things that aren't broken and considering another program to build out. What the hell is going on? That's the question that really is the question. How would you, okay, so maybe there's two questions here. What the hell is going on? No, that could be the first question. So maybe three questions. How would you work with someone like this? And then how would you cope if this was you? Like, what would be going on if this was you? Which I think that's the whole point of this like episode is that we're talking about this, but let's just bring it home. Real life scenario. This happens. It's you. What's going on? So the textbook answer versus the real life answer, I think both both exist, so, gosh, how would I work with somebody in this space? So being, yeah, having the luxury of looking in from the outside, is a true luxury. So I mean, I think I've gone through this enough and like reflected on this process enough where I could look at someone and say, what's going on here? You know, and then play a little bit of, um, you know, therapist or coach or whatever and, and just point out the process and like, what's coming up for you and, you know, what do you need? You know, what's going on? What are you missing? What hole are you trying to fill? Like, is this useful or is this just an activity or, you know, a pursuit or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um. That's probably where I would start with folks. Right. And objectively it sounds like everything's great for now and this person doesn't necessarily need to be doing anything, so, um, so kind of digging into that. Personally though, yeah, I mean, the textbook answer is like, oh, I'd probably, you know, notice this in myself and do some reflection and like, talk to people I trust and, uh, you know, get to a better place and, um, you know, be content and just sit with it. But what actually happens in real life is I may not channel it immediately into a work thing, um, but I will channel it somewhere, you know? Mm-hmm. So I'll be like, oh. Maybe I need to, uh, run another marathon. Let me sign up for a marathon and put a training plan in place so that I can follow like week by week and work towards something. Or maybe there's a house project. Let me look and see what that could, you know, so I will channel that, um, that energy somewhere in most cases or whatever. Maybe I'll research something in detail. I'm kind of like ashamed to admit that I will, I in a, in another life. I feel like I could be a personal shopper. Like I do so much online research for stuff that I buy. So I would like go research refrigerators or something and figure out if we need a new refrigerator, you know, or like, yeah. So I'll put it somewhere in real life. This is so funny. Did you, there was this guy, I don't know where I heard this from. There was this guy who started going to open houses and then writing about the experience. And he was just really, he was an engineer, so he was really thorough and meticulous and. Like very clean with his writing. Yeah. And then people started approaching him about like, go check out this open house for me. And then they wanted him to be their realtor and so he ended up like building up this mass. He became a realtor and he ended up building up this like massive business because he just went to an open house and like wrote about it as him and his wife were house shopping. So to sink into the fridge is like, that's a legit profession. You could be a personal shopper and you know, maybe that's your next career is like personal shopping. I don't mean to put more on your plate. This is supposed to be about not doing that, so my bad, but Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I'm gonna say I relate to you. Yeah, I, I'm thinking that it would be, it was somebody talking about some famous, musician like they would talk about, sort of the experience of coming off stage. Mm-hmm. And it was either drinking to like come down or doing coke to like keep it going. Mm-hmm. And so that like, yeah, that process of like downshifting is, downshifting is really hard for me. Um, it's really hard and I love, this is probably TMI, but alcoholism runs in my family. I would love to drink every day. Like it would be such an easy, I don't drink right now at all, but it'd be easy that downshift is the benefit, like bringing my brain down, just like slowing things down just a tiny little bit. Not to the point of drunkenness, but like. Just enough to like, shoo. Oh, okay. I can like physiologically like, oh, I'm like relieving some of the weight, you know? Mm-hmm. Whatever the weight is, just like the, the, the going, going, going. So downshifting is hard, just period. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. If I was in this position, I would know what was happening. Like, I can see it clearly, and I, I might, I might do one of two things. So depending on like, how great I felt about what was happening, like, man, I can feel so good. You know, I might try to keep it going in the way of like, I'm gonna start this new workout program, or I'm gonna learn how to crochet, or I'm gonna pick French back up, or I'm gonna whatever, buy a keyboard. Mm-hmm. And like, start playing the piano again. Or who knows? Learn coding. I, I was four weeks postpartum and I started a free coding program. Why? Who knows? Who knows? Mm-hmm. Who knows? Mm-hmm. And so it might go that direction, or it might go the direction of. You're doing that thing again, Tara, like you're doing that thing where you are just, you're just excited about this, but like you have to physically slow yourself down. And so it might be I hike instead, and so it's not like the production of something. It's more like, I know if I hike in the forest in particular, if I'm surrounded by trees, I know I'm gonna like, oh, I can breathe. Okay. It helps me sort of slow down and reground, honestly, probably stay barefoot. Also, I really like to be barefoot in grass. It helps me feel alive, feel connected to the earth. And then maybe there's something about just not allowing myself to do that, like more of something until I feel slower in my body, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's like there are some things I can do. Yeah. That's also assuming that I recognize as it's happening. 'cause sometimes I might not recognize a, a lot of times I do, but not always. Yeah. And then if I was working with somebody, I probably would say the same thing. Like obviously it would be calling this thing out as like, I think this is what's happening. And then trying to identify the part or the wound or the need or the meaning behind the movement, you know? And, trying to help them figure out other ways in which they could potentially bring themselves down or like allow for some discomfort. Maybe not forever, but like, sort of paying attention to this discomfort rather than trying to channel it or even like stop it entirely from happening. Mm-hmm. Because also think about like, it's a whole system disruption. Like it makes sense to me that we would feel uncomfortable with something like that if you are moving and building and doing something and then all of a sudden. If you, if you took a moving piece and you just like, you know, picked it up and dropped it, it's gonna like keep slowly spinning probably until it eventually stops. And so I think, well, it does make sense to me that there's an after effect of something like this, like a major hiring cycle, onboarding to new team members, implementing a new process, like hitting quarterly goals. You're on high. Sure. But also you've just done a lot of movement. Same as if you fucking run on a treadmill, you get off and the whole world is moving around you. It feels like the same thing where you have to just, you know, reorient yourself to what not being on a treadmill feels like, which maybe isn't stillness either. Like, it might be that your baseline isn't stillness necessarily, but it's slower than the speed that you were just traveling at. Right. Maybe it's walking instead of running. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which feels lame at first. Like, then it's like combating the like, oh God, this is boring. Like, I'm walking, I could be sprinting, you know? Totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I hear you. I was just talking to my wife about this yesterday actually. Maybe, or I think we're in the same ballpark where, you know, like I told you, we just got done with this weekend of, um, soccer with my son. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, he had this big tournament and I've experienced this with big events like that where there's a long buildup and anticipation and like a lot that goes into, you know, where you like hit the event and then the few days after there's this huge letdown. I think that's like a known phenomenon, right? Yeah. So it happens for me with like races that I've trained for or, um, it happened with our wedding for sure, a long time ago. Yeah. Um, you know, things like that. And. You know, I, I think that's what you're getting at with this question is like, Hey, you've like made this sprint, you know, you've done the sprint and then everything's good, quote unquote, and like, you close the quarter and then what, what happens then? It's like, yeah. An emptiness or a yes mourning or a grief or something. And then what do you do to combat that? Or do you sit with it? Yeah. Do you like cover it up? Do you? Yeah, We haven't. Holy shit. We haven't talked about grief, I think, at all in this episode, but I think that that is a major player with any of this. And like the space, you know, like what you, what you just said. I forget how you languaged it, but this notion of like, you've been doing something and creating, and then there's it like empty space. Mm-hmm. It, it can't be filled right away. Like that's literally loss. This, you have removed something. You've removed something, there's empty space which is lost. This thing is now gone. And like, what does it mean to be gone? But also why can't we grieve things like that? What's wrong with grieving something like even a, even a great thing's happening there, it can't remain great, you know, even if something great has been happening, once it ends, I, I, you should feel grief. Like, I don't mean that in a shitty way, but you should feel grief. One, that's a testament to how great it is. Two, now there's a loss and it's not necessarily a loss of identity, but like a loss of a part of you that's been planning and gunning for something and striving and whatever. You hit this benchmark, you hit this goal, and you know now what? Well, now you grieve that it's done and then you eventually will set a new one. And I, yeah, , maybe that's obvious, maybe that's obvious to people who are listening or maybe that's obvious, like from this conversation. But I, I do wonder if there should be more conversation, even just about grief as. Maybe like practice owners. I don't mean to make this like group practice owners need to grieve more, you know? But like, maybe there's something about like, grief is in everything, like, it's literally everywhere. It's also always really close for me at the surface. Like it's right underneath. And so I think there's something about like, oh fuck yeah, there's grief there too. I forgot about this. Of course there is, and I wonder if like, conceptually you have this understanding of what's happening, it actually helps you to deal with the, the need for that frenetic energy. Maybe. You know, for me it comes out as frenetic, like in that empty space where I'm like frantically trying to fill if I don't catch it, you know? But then the alternative is like, if I can catch it and I'm like, oh, that's what's happening, then it's, then it's like acknowledging and being with that grief as well. Like that's part of the stillness. Mm-hmm. And it's Butters, it's the, you watch some south park, right? Why do, do I think about, I think I think about Butters all the time. I, I like, he's like, you know, we think about, from an IFS perspective, I think about one of my parts as like a little, a little Butters. You know, he is like, walks around like, ah, I guess I can do that. You know, I, I dunno. Are you, how's everyone doing? You know, he's just like real concerned and real anxious and real nervous all the time. But there's the one episode where Wendy Testa Burger breaks up with Stan, and then he turns total goth and he's just like depressed. And not all goths are depressed, but he, like, his attire totally changed to like goth emo. Uh, and also he like gets real, real sad, real, real sort of morose and sad. And then Butters in the same episode thinks he has a girlfriend at Raisins, which is the equivalent of Hooters in the show. It's. South Park is so unhinged, so fucking funny, but so unhinged. And so he has this like quote girlfriend who's actually the server at Raisins. So he goes to see her every day, and she's real nice to him. And then somehow he finds out that they're not dating. Or maybe they did and they broke up. And Butters goes to like talk to Stan. And Stan's all sad and depressed. Butters is like, yeah, yeah. But it's a beautiful kind of sadness. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, I think I cried when I heard him say that because it just was such a, that's exactly it. Why can't it be sad and beautiful at the same time? Why can't it be rich and meaningful and grief laden? Like they're not, they don't, they're not mutually exclusive, I would say more often than not they do and should coexist. And there's beauty in that, that, that is, I'm just like, that's the fucking meaning of life. It's all of it. It's all of it at once. Like let it be together. Stop shutting it out. Feel your grief when you do awesome shit. Know that it's gonna end and it's okay when it does. Because then there will be more awesome shit in your future. Right. Well said. Thanks. Yeah, that was a little tangent. A butter's tangent. There you go. Butters brings it home for us. Yeah. Oh Yeah. Butters brings it home. That actually needs to be a catchphrase. I might adopt that as a catchphrase for the podcast. I'm just gonna reference Butters, like Butters brings us home, you know, as always. Right. Oh man, this has been, I hope this has, this has been awesome. For me, this was awesome. I don't know how it was for you, but thanks, man. This was great. Yeah. Yeah, this was super cool. I don't really have these conversations a whole lot, so any opportunity. Really meaningful. Thank you. Yeah. Cool. Thanks Jeremy. For anybody listening, I will have all of the stuff related to Jeremy in my show notes. So you can find links there and or if you're on YouTube, in the YouTube description, if you're watching this, it's gonna be below in the description or in the show notes. You'll find links to all of the things he does. And if you are listening and you're like, God, this was fantastic. I loved this episode. Just share it with somebody. Share it with somebody else. You think it might resonate with another group practice owner, even just another business owner, period. Because I think while we are both group practice owners, the reality is that what we're not talking about is unique to group practice ownership. I think it's something about entrepreneurship and about being a business owner and about, I don't know, the stillness that needs to come with it, as well as the grief and the agitation, the restlessness and the evolution of how we show up and you know, all of that. So sharing is caring folks. Share with somebody that you think needs it. So that's all I got. Thanks for being here. Thank you again, Jeremy, for joining me. It's been great and everyone else, thanks for having me. Thanks. Yeah, no problem. I'm probably gonna have you back on again at some point 'cause you know, I just think you're awesome. So for everybody else, have a great day. I will see you next time. Bye.