Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Guiding the Flock: Tommy Sheppard on Leadership

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Guiding the Flock: Tommy Sheppard on Leadership · Rosters to Rings Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings. I'm your host, Bad Levine.
0:10
Speaker 1: We have an exceptional show for you today, making his
0:13
Speaker 1: Rosters to Rings debut, we are thrilled to be joined
0:16
Speaker 1: today by Tommy Shepperd. Tommy grew up in Albertquerque, New Mexico.
0:20
Speaker 1: He attended New Mexico State, where he played college football
0:23
Speaker 1: for three seasons. After graduating, Tommy serves as the sports
0:27
Speaker 1: information director for the University of Nevada, Las Vegas for
0:30
Speaker 1: three years before joining the Denver Nuggets as the senior
0:33
Speaker 1: Director of Team Services and Player Relations. After a nine
0:37
Speaker 1: year run with the Nuggets, the Washington Wizards came calling
0:40
Speaker 1: and recruited Tommy to be their senior vice president of
0:43
Speaker 1: Basketball Operations. After sixteen years with the Wizards, Tommy ascended
0:48
Speaker 1: to the role of President of Basketball Operations, a post
0:51
Speaker 1: he held for four years. Tommy spent close to three
0:54
Speaker 1: decades in the NBA, earning a reputation as an inspirational
0:58
Speaker 1: leader and a devoted mentor. Currently, Tommy shares his vast
1:02
Speaker 1: wisdom as an executive coach and an adjunct professor at
1:05
Speaker 1: Georgetown University. Tommy, Welcome to Rosters to Rings.
1:10
Speaker 2: It's an honor to be here, Thank you very much.
1:12
Speaker 2: That doesn't quite always do justice when you hear stuff
1:15
Speaker 2: run back you left off all the tough times, but
1:18
Speaker 2: those are great times. I'll tell you. It's amazing how
1:21
Speaker 2: quick years go by and they run together. But the
1:24
Speaker 2: one thing recurring that I would never trade in my
1:27
Speaker 2: entire career the great people along the way, the people
1:30
Speaker 2: you learn from and then you get a test to
1:32
Speaker 2: be one of those people can help other people, and
1:35
Speaker 2: that's just how it keeps giving. That's why I love
1:37
Speaker 2: sports so much, and I'm so honored to be on
1:39
Speaker 2: this show.
1:39
Speaker 1: With all this wisdom, Tommy, I think you and I
1:43
Speaker 1: are kindred spirits in that regard. I always talk to
1:46
Speaker 1: people who are starting their careers and ask them what
1:48
Speaker 1: legacy do you want to have at the end of
1:50
Speaker 1: your career. Do you want to sit on a porch
1:53
Speaker 1: with a box of rings or do you want to
1:55
Speaker 1: sit next to people whose lives you inextricably touched and
1:58
Speaker 1: you allowed to inextricably touch your life. And I know
2:01
Speaker 1: where I stand. I want to be touching people's lives
2:04
Speaker 1: and allowing them to enhance me. Of course, we all
2:06
Speaker 1: want to reach championships along the way. But the one
2:09
Speaker 1: thing you can control is how you treat people and
2:11
Speaker 1: hopefully how you elevate them throughout their journeys and allow
2:14
Speaker 1: them to touch you as well.
2:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what's amazing. Now, in the next four drafts,
2:22
Speaker 2: four NBA drafts, there's about forty five legacy players coming
2:27
Speaker 2: up through the ranks, and some of them are in
2:28
Speaker 2: college right now. Some of them are about to go
2:30
Speaker 2: to college. And all those guys, you know, the dads
2:33
Speaker 2: call me and I worked with their dads or we
2:36
Speaker 2: knew each other from the NBA or from USA basketball
2:39
Speaker 2: that they want to talk about, Hey, I got to
2:41
Speaker 2: figure out to manage my kids' career and stuff. I
2:44
Speaker 2: was just laught because I'm like, I can't believe you know, yeah,
2:47
Speaker 2: listen to anybody when you were a kid, and how
2:49
Speaker 2: we gonna do this. I think once the parent becomes
2:53
Speaker 2: in charge of somebody's life and they're managing their careers,
2:56
Speaker 2: they realize how much they leaned into other people, and
2:59
Speaker 2: so I always can they are such an honor. You
3:01
Speaker 2: get those calls, I gues you must have does something
3:03
Speaker 2: life for them to reach out because this isn't asking
3:05
Speaker 2: should I buy this washer driver? Should buy this car?
3:08
Speaker 2: This as I what should I do with my kid
3:09
Speaker 2: in his career? So I never take it lightly. What
3:12
Speaker 2: a huge responsibility it is in your management positions the
3:16
Speaker 2: people that you work with where these relationships go because
3:19
Speaker 2: they share don't end and that clock runs out. They
3:22
Speaker 2: don't end when someone retires, that's for sure.
3:24
Speaker 1: Well, Tommy, I think like kind of deep down for
3:27
Speaker 1: all of us were talent evaluators. And when I had
3:30
Speaker 1: the opportunity to talk to you the homework I did,
3:33
Speaker 1: everyone spoke of you as being a hall of fame
3:36
Speaker 1: relationship person. And I really want to dive into that
3:39
Speaker 1: later in this conversation because it's the unified thing that
3:43
Speaker 1: everyone said about you is that you are an exceptionally
3:45
Speaker 1: good hearted person. And sure you're working in a competitive,
3:49
Speaker 1: dynamic career path, but along the way you never missed
3:53
Speaker 1: an opportunity to really address people, enhance their lives and
3:58
Speaker 1: manage exceptional relationships along the way. But Tommy, where I
4:02
Speaker 1: want to start with you before we get too far
4:04
Speaker 1: down the path is one of our traditions and rosters
4:06
Speaker 1: to rings is to ask each person who comes on,
4:09
Speaker 1: how did you fall in love with sports? Where where's
4:11
Speaker 1: your sports passion origin story.
4:15
Speaker 2: Six years old. Julius Irvey. I saw him play basketball
4:22
Speaker 2: on television. I think our TV was black and white
4:25
Speaker 2: actually at the time too. But I just saw something
4:28
Speaker 2: I'd never seen anywhere, and I said, I'm going to
4:30
Speaker 2: play in the NBA. I want to be Julius Irvey.
4:35
Speaker 2: I got Barker's out, made a number six on my
4:41
Speaker 2: white T shirt. I cut my tube sox off and
4:45
Speaker 2: made a handbag, wristbands, had a headband. I just I
4:48
Speaker 2: tried everything I could to grow a fro. I said,
4:51
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in the NBA. I want to
4:53
Speaker 2: play in the NBA. That's all I ever wanted to do.
4:55
Speaker 2: My dad showed me the box scores that were always
4:58
Speaker 2: a day and a half late, two days late. I
5:00
Speaker 2: could read Julius Irving. That's kind of how I learned
5:02
Speaker 2: to read.
5:03
Speaker 1: Was.
5:03
Speaker 2: I always wanted to see those box boats, see how
5:05
Speaker 2: doctor J did. And I just love the game. I
5:07
Speaker 2: saw how unbelievably athletic it was like watching you know,
5:13
Speaker 2: jazz out on the court. The way the guys played,
5:16
Speaker 2: and the game really is the game. It's changed a lot,
5:18
Speaker 2: but it really has never changed. Good players work together.
5:23
Speaker 2: We're championships all that, but the ability to play that game.
5:28
Speaker 2: So fast forward where I fell in love with the game.
5:31
Speaker 2: I love basketball, of course I look at it now
5:34
Speaker 2: and somehow, some way I was going to make it
5:36
Speaker 2: to the NBA, and I figured out in high school
5:38
Speaker 2: probably wasn't as a player.
5:41
Speaker 1: Did you ever get a chance to meet your hero Oh?
5:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely he Doc used to work on NBC and
5:49
Speaker 2: NBA on NBC back in the day. In the very
5:51
Speaker 2: first time I met him, and this is the third
5:53
Speaker 2: the other day, but was when we had an incident
5:55
Speaker 2: with one of our players, my mood abdul Roof, and
5:59
Speaker 2: nobody could get a hold of him. The media would,
6:01
Speaker 2: he wouldn't do any interviews, and then so Julius call bad.
6:04
Speaker 2: He said, this is this is Julius irving about fellow.
6:10
Speaker 2: I said, I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna be able
6:13
Speaker 2: to make them available to you. But you are my
6:14
Speaker 2: favorite play. But we did, we get we caught up
6:17
Speaker 2: after that. He's every bit the gentleman you always worry
6:20
Speaker 2: about meeting your heroes, and he was always the greatest,
6:22
Speaker 2: most generous gentleman I've ever come across in the NBA.
6:26
Speaker 2: So I was glad about that.
6:28
Speaker 1: That that is exceptional. And I grew up a huge
6:31
Speaker 1: Baltimore Orioles fan, and my two heroes were Cal Ripken
6:34
Speaker 1: and Eddie Murray, and I've had chances to meet both
6:37
Speaker 1: of those guys in my career, and it was just
6:39
Speaker 1: it was exceptional.
6:41
Speaker 2: You know.
6:41
Speaker 1: It was like you were transported back to being that
6:43
Speaker 1: seven year old kid wearing wearing your your Ken sing
6:47
Speaker 1: singleton or Eddie Murray jersey, watching the game, thinking you
6:49
Speaker 1: had an impact on the outcome. And I got a
6:52
Speaker 1: chance in me each of those guys. And what special
6:54
Speaker 1: special opportunities those are. You get to be a kid again,
6:59
Speaker 1: which is just so enjoyable. Tommy, you had such a
7:03
Speaker 1: you even described this as the most non traditional path
7:07
Speaker 1: to get into sports. You graduated from New Mexico STATEIA.
7:11
Speaker 1: If I did my homework right, you were considering going
7:14
Speaker 1: to medical school and studying epidemiology. But then also you
7:17
Speaker 1: get an opportunity to go to UNOV to be the
7:20
Speaker 1: sports information director. How did you make that leap from
7:23
Speaker 1: medical school to going to UNOV.
7:26
Speaker 2: Well, I like to think I could have gotten into
7:28
Speaker 2: medical school. I don't know if I could or not,
7:30
Speaker 2: but I was studying epidemiology. I was playing football and
7:35
Speaker 2: there was an opportunity that came out of nowhere. Absolutely Noah,
7:39
Speaker 2: but my roommate in college at the time was the
7:42
Speaker 2: Vietnamese place kicker who had played. Actually at the time,
7:46
Speaker 2: it was really strange. In this day and age, it
7:47
Speaker 2: seems like all this is brand new, but it's been
7:49
Speaker 2: going off forever. He played major indoor soccer for the
7:53
Speaker 2: Wichita Wings and his name was Don Lee, and Dot
7:59
Speaker 2: was going to play football for the Wichita State Chalkers.
8:02
Speaker 2: They dropped football. His coach brought him. His assistant assistant
8:06
Speaker 2: coach who was in charge of him, came to New
8:08
Speaker 2: Mexico State and he brought Dot Lee with him and
8:12
Speaker 2: dott Lee became the placekicker in New Mexico State. He
8:15
Speaker 2: kicked five field goals and a half okay against Kansas,
8:19
Speaker 2: and that became a very inspirational story. Dog was a well.
8:23
Speaker 2: It was one of the one of those last people
8:26
Speaker 2: that were leaving Saigon. When it was following his family left.
8:29
Speaker 2: He remembers getting on a helicopter coming to the United States.
8:32
Speaker 2: Didn't speak electing English. The whole thing. It was a
8:35
Speaker 2: tremendous story, so much so the CBS sought this story
8:39
Speaker 2: out to follow him around, learn about this amazing Vietnamese
8:44
Speaker 2: refugee in the United States who set an NCAA field
8:48
Speaker 2: goal record in half and they put that this doesn't
8:51
Speaker 2: mean much maybe today, but you'll understand. They put that
8:54
Speaker 2: story on at the halftime of Alabama Auburn, Right, so
8:58
Speaker 2: that was gonna be a big, big story. Well, all
9:01
Speaker 2: of a sudden, these people are showing up in my
9:02
Speaker 2: dorm room with my partner, and there's cameras everywhere, and
9:07
Speaker 2: there's a guy that coordinated the interviews, like, what do
9:09
Speaker 2: you do? What's your job? And he told me he
9:11
Speaker 2: was Steve Shutt. He was the BEATA relations director from
9:14
Speaker 2: New Mexico State. I didn't know any of this stuff exa,
9:17
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I just didn't know. I was playing
9:20
Speaker 2: football and I'm not very good team and I wasn't
9:22
Speaker 2: a very good player, so I knew football wasn't gonna
9:24
Speaker 2: be my future. So I started studying a little bit
9:27
Speaker 2: more about what I thought I was going to do,
9:29
Speaker 2: and he offered me a job. He said, when you're
9:31
Speaker 2: done playing, you could come work as a student in
9:34
Speaker 2: the sports information office. Changed my old career and that
9:38
Speaker 2: was you talked about non traditional. But I got in
9:41
Speaker 2: my senior year, I was working took a job very
9:45
Speaker 2: briefly as a graduate assistant in Louisiana who got a
9:48
Speaker 2: phone call emergency hire needed at UNLV for a sports
9:52
Speaker 2: information director assistant for an assistant SID and I took it.
9:56
Speaker 2: I said, I'm in college. I'm in grad school to
9:58
Speaker 2: get a full time job. As a full time job,
10:00
Speaker 2: I left never looked back. When I got to UNLV,
10:04
Speaker 2: I started out meeting relations and it just everything about
10:08
Speaker 2: it was exactly where I spent my entire life broiling up.
10:10
Speaker 2: I love stories, I love stats, I love scouty players,
10:14
Speaker 2: I love coaches, everything about it. I just didn't know
10:16
Speaker 2: you could make a career at it. So it was
10:18
Speaker 2: a big revelation, and that's how I really got started.
10:23
Speaker 1: Tell me, it's incredible how many people who achieve what
10:26
Speaker 1: you've achieved have a similar starting point. You know, I
10:29
Speaker 1: harkened back to I graduated from college and I was
10:32
Speaker 1: aspirational working in baseball. But I honestly had no idea
10:35
Speaker 1: what the jobs were, none whatsoever. I didn't even know
10:38
Speaker 1: what I was applying for. But I just sent out
10:41
Speaker 1: resumes to all thirty baseball teams. I got formally rejected
10:44
Speaker 1: by four no responses from the other twenty six, and
10:47
Speaker 1: I was ecstatic. And you know, like like so many
10:49
Speaker 1: of us, I keep the rejection letters, and one was
10:52
Speaker 1: just to date myself, almost from a franchise called the
10:54
Speaker 1: Montreal Expost, which doesn't even exist anymore. Their president named
10:58
Speaker 1: Claude Brochu, who probably had somebody in their office Stampa's
11:02
Speaker 1: name on it, had formally rejected me, but it was
11:05
Speaker 1: a very cordially written letter. I then ended up going
11:09
Speaker 1: to graduate school and got my first job working on
11:12
Speaker 1: the business side for the Dodgers, aspirational of maybe if
11:15
Speaker 1: I put in my time, I could jump over to
11:17
Speaker 1: the baseball side. And then all of a sudden things
11:20
Speaker 1: kind of fell apart there and another door opened and
11:22
Speaker 1: I got a chance to join the Colorado Rockies as
11:24
Speaker 1: a baseball employee. But it just speaks to the good
11:27
Speaker 1: fortune all of us had. But the common theme is
11:30
Speaker 1: when you're given an opportunity, you just make the most
11:33
Speaker 1: of it. And I think that's one of the themes you've
11:36
Speaker 1: had in your career. You talk openly about the fact
11:39
Speaker 1: that there's no job too small, and you have to
11:42
Speaker 1: have this mindset of always going the extra mile. Can
11:45
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that. How did that
11:47
Speaker 1: work ethic get instilled in you when you were a
11:50
Speaker 1: younger man.
11:51
Speaker 2: Well, I was one of seven. You know, when you're
11:55
Speaker 2: the youngest of seven, you are basically on every single
11:58
Speaker 2: job saying that happens in the household. You're going shopping
12:01
Speaker 2: with your mother, you're doing stuff on the weekends with
12:04
Speaker 2: your father. All your brothers and sisters have to chip in.
12:06
Speaker 2: You know. It was manual labor at its finest, and
12:09
Speaker 2: so you learn to be a good teammate. And I
12:11
Speaker 2: think you learn to see that a lot of things
12:13
Speaker 2: that start out looking like they're really really nasty jobs
12:17
Speaker 2: that nobody wants, those are the ones that you learn
12:19
Speaker 2: the most. And there's not a lot of competition for
12:22
Speaker 2: those jobs. But people are watching everything that you do,
12:25
Speaker 2: and they watch how much you care about how this
12:29
Speaker 2: is going to look because I touched it because I'm
12:31
Speaker 2: part of this crew right here. Do you want it
12:36
Speaker 2: to be something that people say you did a good
12:38
Speaker 2: job no matter what it was, and they recognize it.
12:42
Speaker 2: Or he just wanted to say, man, I'm just clocking
12:44
Speaker 2: in the time. I'm just trying to pass the time.
12:46
Speaker 2: Let's get this done. You learn those lessons young, and
12:49
Speaker 2: then as for me when I apply it in sports,
12:52
Speaker 2: I think everybody knows say that there's several houses, several
12:56
Speaker 2: doors on a house. You don't just always get to
12:58
Speaker 2: come in the front door and doors and back doors.
13:01
Speaker 2: Sometimes there's windows you got to climb through. But if
13:05
Speaker 2: you're willing to put in the dues, then there is
13:07
Speaker 2: ans on the end of dudes you want to put
13:09
Speaker 2: that time in. I think people recognize the qualities of
13:13
Speaker 2: a great teammate and they apply across the board. So
13:16
Speaker 2: if you show you can do something and they're responsible
13:18
Speaker 2: in one area, you might get a chance to do something,
13:21
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit more, and a little bit more
13:23
Speaker 2: and a little bit more, if you're patient enough. I
13:26
Speaker 2: think if there's always that opportunity to afford it, I
13:28
Speaker 2: just I kind of have to. You sit back sometimes
13:33
Speaker 2: and somebody say it's an opportunity, but that's a great opportunity.
13:35
Speaker 2: They go, no, it's a terrible opportunity. So you try
13:39
Speaker 2: to see it from both sides of what makes it bad. Well,
13:42
Speaker 2: it's going to be a lot of work, and that's
13:43
Speaker 2: where you just start laughing like that. That's what you're
13:45
Speaker 2: supposed to do. And the greater the challenge is the
13:48
Speaker 2: greater the victory. And I always believe that. I know
13:51
Speaker 2: in baseball I can't even imagine the world that you're
13:53
Speaker 2: in here. There's twice the schedule that we have and
13:56
Speaker 2: how much goes into putting all that together. But it started,
14:00
Speaker 2: like you said, you start out on the business side,
14:02
Speaker 2: you start to people see you in a different light
14:05
Speaker 2: when they're working with you, and they see the attention
14:07
Speaker 2: to detail their job too big or too small. I
14:11
Speaker 2: think that resonates with people in hiring positions and they
14:13
Speaker 2: see somebody say that you're looking for self awareness, you're
14:17
Speaker 2: looking for humility, You're looking for great teammates. That's that's
14:21
Speaker 2: really what is going to promote you in this business.
14:24
Speaker 2: There's a ton of smart people. So if it was
14:27
Speaker 2: just up to smart so you got a million people
14:29
Speaker 2: to choose from, how many of those people are gay teammates.
14:31
Speaker 2: How many of those people are willing to do whatever
14:33
Speaker 2: it takes. How many people will run down when they
14:35
Speaker 2: see the equipment. Guys got their hands full, it's pouring rain,
14:39
Speaker 2: we got a plane to catch. How many guys are
14:41
Speaker 2: gonna get off the bus, go down there and load
14:43
Speaker 2: that truck up. If you don't do it, I'm sorry.
14:45
Speaker 2: They're not a good team man.
14:48
Speaker 1: And Tommy, I think you're talking about there's so many
14:50
Speaker 1: people who can connect to people's minds because they're so bright,
14:52
Speaker 1: they're so intelligent. But can you connect to somebody's heart
14:55
Speaker 1: because if you do, you have them for life, and
14:57
Speaker 1: there's a bond there that is unbreakable. And I had
15:00
Speaker 1: somebody tell me early in my career, and this was
15:02
Speaker 1: great advice I thought I received, which was they said,
15:05
Speaker 1: what's an amount of money you can't possibly ever envision making?
15:08
Speaker 1: And I just throw out, you know, a million dollars
15:10
Speaker 1: And they said, okay, treat every task you do as
15:14
Speaker 1: if you're getting paid a million dollars to do it,
15:16
Speaker 1: and treat everybody who does that task as somebody who's
15:19
Speaker 1: getting paid a million dollars to do it. And so
15:22
Speaker 1: I think that the unwritten thought was like, no task
15:25
Speaker 1: is too small. Take every task extremely seriously and if
15:28
Speaker 1: you do, it will add up. But also treat everybody
15:31
Speaker 1: who is that equipment guy who is standing in the rain,
15:33
Speaker 1: who is you know, moving the equipment from the truck
15:37
Speaker 1: to the train, to the plane. Treat them as if
15:40
Speaker 1: they're making a million. Treat them with that level of respect.
15:43
Speaker 1: Every job that is being done deserves your utmost respect,
15:47
Speaker 1: And if you do that, everyone feels like they're part
15:49
Speaker 1: of something magical and special rather than just a functionary
15:53
Speaker 1: role along the way that is nameless and faceless. And
15:56
Speaker 1: as you know from sitting in the most elite seat
15:59
Speaker 1: as a president of basketball operations for so long, it
16:02
Speaker 1: is really tough to connect with everybody in the organization
16:05
Speaker 1: unless you're singularly focused and dedicated to doing that. And
16:09
Speaker 1: so I think those that do have these exceptional careers,
16:13
Speaker 1: and that has so much more than just the wins
16:15
Speaker 1: and losses, right, It's it's the connections to the humans
16:18
Speaker 1: along the way, But it starts with treating them and
16:21
Speaker 1: the tasks they do with the respect that they deserve.
16:24
Speaker 1: Because there's no such thing as a small part of
16:27
Speaker 1: a championship organization. Everybody is a meaningful part if you
16:32
Speaker 1: achieve a championship caliber run in professional sports today.
16:37
Speaker 2: Oh, there are no question. I think some of the
16:38
Speaker 2: most valuable time I spent starting out my career when
16:42
Speaker 2: I was with the Nuggets, was you know, going from
16:44
Speaker 2: sports information, but I would literally go into every office
16:48
Speaker 2: and stats were a lot smaller back then, but I'd
16:50
Speaker 2: spend quite a bit of time with the ticket people.
16:52
Speaker 2: What are your challenges? How do you takes? You talk
16:54
Speaker 2: to the corporate salespeople, you talk, community relations, you talk,
16:57
Speaker 2: you go around. Has that figured get a lot? I
16:59
Speaker 2: really need to know what makes these people's jobs difficult,
17:04
Speaker 2: what makes them great? And how can I help them
17:07
Speaker 2: do their jobs? And how can we all help each other?
17:10
Speaker 2: And if you don't really have an idea of what
17:12
Speaker 2: their job is and how they do it and what
17:14
Speaker 2: their challenges are, you always just assume, well, the ticket
17:17
Speaker 2: guys can figure this out, or let's just be let's
17:20
Speaker 2: let's kick the problem down the hall. You can't do
17:22
Speaker 2: that in sports. It's just it's a farm room. If
17:25
Speaker 2: you really want to be a success, you got everybody
17:27
Speaker 2: ask some leaning into each other. And I know this
17:29
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily your job description, but I need your help.
17:32
Speaker 2: And I always think that that's something that's so critical
17:35
Speaker 2: in sports, because hey, if you if you're just going
17:38
Speaker 2: to be showing up on the good days and the wins,
17:41
Speaker 2: you know you're not gonna show up very often. In
17:43
Speaker 2: sports because there's offer of all. The winning is very difficult.
17:47
Speaker 2: It's very rare on a you know, sustainability and in
17:51
Speaker 2: night in, night out. Most teams will tell you that's
17:54
Speaker 2: really really hard. And the ones that do it great.
17:56
Speaker 2: You got to observe your culture and you see some
17:58
Speaker 2: things just show up time and time. I gave how
18:01
Speaker 2: much trust everybody has for each other, how much humility
18:05
Speaker 2: and self alarious you have for your job. Certainly, the
18:08
Speaker 2: quality of character that you have in your building is
18:11
Speaker 2: going to have as much to do with the success
18:13
Speaker 2: as the talent and the players.
18:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me. When I was I felt a watershed
18:19
Speaker 1: moment in my career. I knew I wasn't going to
18:21
Speaker 1: teach our players how to hit or how to throw
18:23
Speaker 1: a curveball. I played baseball ball through college, but we
18:26
Speaker 1: had people much more gifted at coaching those elements of
18:29
Speaker 1: the game. But I had a breakthrough when I realized
18:31
Speaker 1: that I could help with the things that are away
18:33
Speaker 1: from the field. And so I think, in addition to
18:35
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, it's having an appreciation for what's
18:38
Speaker 1: happening at home for your people who you get a
18:41
Speaker 1: chance to work with. How can you maybe lower those
18:44
Speaker 1: hurdles to success by one inch, so they're able to
18:47
Speaker 1: be a little bit more focused at work. How can
18:50
Speaker 1: you be empathetic? Like everyone walks through the doors with
18:52
Speaker 1: their own challenges. Some of them are wearing it very
18:55
Speaker 1: clearly on their sleeves, some of them are not. But
18:58
Speaker 1: we're all dealing with something. And if you're take a
19:00
Speaker 1: couple of minutes of every day to try to connect
19:02
Speaker 1: with people from an empathetic standpoint, sometimes you can really
19:06
Speaker 1: clear the path for them to achieve something they didn't
19:08
Speaker 1: know that they could achieve during the day because they
19:11
Speaker 1: were otherwise so preoccupied with the trials and tribulations all
19:14
Speaker 1: of us have in our lives. Tommy, I want to
19:28
Speaker 1: take us back to nineteen ninety one. You join UNLV
19:30
Speaker 1: at an exceptional time for that school's history. They just
19:34
Speaker 1: won a national championship and if a memory serves there,
19:37
Speaker 1: a couple of years away from having their men's basketball
19:40
Speaker 1: program go on probation for a couple of years. And oh,
19:43
Speaker 1: by the way, you got to work with one of
19:45
Speaker 1: the most charismatic coaches in the history of college basketball,
19:48
Speaker 1: Jerry Tarkanian. Can you share a few stories of highlights
19:52
Speaker 1: of your tenure with UNLV.
19:56
Speaker 2: What I took away from UNLV with all the fantastic
19:59
Speaker 2: relations and I have to start everything by saying, that's
20:02
Speaker 2: where I met my wife. She swam at UNLV. So
20:04
Speaker 2: that was the biggest takeaway by far. But in terms
20:08
Speaker 2: of my career, I fell into crisis management from day
20:12
Speaker 2: one when I started at UNLV. Literally in the North gym.
20:18
Speaker 2: I walked down my first day to go meet Jerry
20:20
Speaker 2: Tarkaney and there's this coach throwing basketballs at the events
20:26
Speaker 2: above the roof in the basketball just chucking balls up
20:31
Speaker 2: and there. I look over. I said, who's that guy?
20:33
Speaker 2: Why is he so angry? Why is he throwing basketballs
20:35
Speaker 2: up there? They said, well, the school puts some cameras
20:38
Speaker 2: up there to film. That's coach Tim gerg Richard. They
20:41
Speaker 2: were filming he teaches a class here. They think that
20:44
Speaker 2: they're going to get an advantage. We were breaking NCAA
20:48
Speaker 2: rules and they're trying to get coach fired. And that's
20:51
Speaker 2: when I realized, like, this is a little different now,
20:53
Speaker 2: because you would think the Rebels just one to ninety,
20:56
Speaker 2: just just missed. I think they were the greatest team
20:59
Speaker 2: never to win Championshi in ninety one. That team was
21:02
Speaker 2: just so fantastic and it they just didn't get it
21:04
Speaker 2: done in the Semis against Dude, it doesn't changed. That
21:07
Speaker 2: was a great team. So now I'm in there for
21:09
Speaker 2: coach Stark and I've see this, and I go to
21:12
Speaker 2: a staff meeting and there's lawyers in the room. Everybody
21:14
Speaker 2: brought their own lawyer. And I said, this is not
21:16
Speaker 2: a cohesive family. This isn't the unit, this isn't what
21:19
Speaker 2: you get. So Jerry Tarkanian is oblivious to all of it.
21:24
Speaker 2: He just coaches basketball. Yeah, he loves his family. He
21:28
Speaker 2: had great kids, He had a great life. But he
21:31
Speaker 2: really loved one liners where he wasn't trying to say
21:35
Speaker 2: him he's just a funny guy. He would say something
21:38
Speaker 2: that just would stick with you and stick with me
21:40
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. That I would tell
21:41
Speaker 2: you the most important person besides my wife. But he
21:45
Speaker 2: entered Coach Tarkanian huge influence from me, but his assistant coach,
21:50
Speaker 2: Tim Gergerich, who I mentioned earlier, became that's the guy
21:53
Speaker 2: really helped me get understand the NBA. We worked at
21:56
Speaker 2: the NBA camp together for he put together camp for
21:59
Speaker 2: twenty eight eight years and I was. Yeah, I helped
22:04
Speaker 2: him put it, you know, do whatever he asked me
22:06
Speaker 2: to do, and start out driving guys from back and
22:08
Speaker 2: forth from the hotel to the gym. And by the
22:09
Speaker 2: end it was like a camp directory type of thing.
22:11
Speaker 2: Put the schedule together and all the NBA teams would
22:14
Speaker 2: bring two three players and two three coaches and we scrimmage,
22:18
Speaker 2: do drills in the morning, scrimmage at night, that kind
22:21
Speaker 2: of stuff. So Coach tark was great, but we learned
22:24
Speaker 2: from him have great assistance, and that was one of
22:25
Speaker 2: the best assistants ever in college, but certainly in the NBA.
22:29
Speaker 2: He's a godfather player to go. But Coach tarka and
22:32
Speaker 2: this true story. Now, we were on a fly one
22:34
Speaker 2: time and it had lost out the toud quickly, like
22:38
Speaker 2: people holding hands, you know, singing spirituals and praying every
22:42
Speaker 2: prayer they ever knew, Like we're coming into l A
22:45
Speaker 2: and that there's there's fire trucks on the runway kind
22:49
Speaker 2: of stuff, and dark he read the USA today the
22:52
Speaker 2: whole time. He never even looked up. You know, he's
22:54
Speaker 2: just he's just kind of oblivious to stuff. He gets
22:56
Speaker 2: locked in and uh, that was that was also very cless,
23:02
Speaker 2: does it.
23:02
Speaker 1: God, yeah, I think it was in high school at
23:07
Speaker 1: that time that that I agree with you. That was
23:09
Speaker 1: one of the most talented rosters I've ever seen compiled.
23:13
Speaker 1: I mean, hell, that was a good NBA roster. They
23:16
Speaker 1: had at least four or five guys get drafted out
23:19
Speaker 1: of that that group, some of whom went on to
23:21
Speaker 1: become exceptionally talented. One even went on to become Grandmama,
23:26
Speaker 1: if memory served. But that was a exceptionally talented team.
23:32
Speaker 2: Tommy.
23:32
Speaker 1: You you then took your talents to the Denver Nuggets.
23:36
Speaker 1: You're you're still working more on the public relations side
23:39
Speaker 1: and what what do you feel were some of the
23:41
Speaker 1: lessons you learned in that role that really contributed to
23:44
Speaker 1: your extremely successful twenty plus year run on the basketball
23:47
Speaker 1: operation side with the Wizards.
23:50
Speaker 2: No, it's just a recurrent theme in my life. The
23:52
Speaker 2: people that you meet. You don't necessarily sit there and
23:55
Speaker 2: look across and say this person would be in my
23:57
Speaker 2: life the next thirty five years and there going to
24:00
Speaker 2: be responsible for my career. You don't. But what I
24:03
Speaker 2: learned is you keep up with people no matter what
24:05
Speaker 2: and where you go and how you go through lives.
24:08
Speaker 2: Bernie Bickerstaff hired me with the Den the Nuggets. He
24:11
Speaker 2: was the GM. Maybe it's always come in after the show, right,
24:15
Speaker 2: But that was in nineteen ninety four when I was
24:18
Speaker 2: hired there. They were just coming off. They were the
24:20
Speaker 2: first eight seed to ever beat the number one. That
24:23
Speaker 2: was to Kimbae Mtumbo. We have a dream mount. Yeah,
24:28
Speaker 2: they beat the Seattle Super Songs with the number one
24:30
Speaker 2: seed with the best record. They were down two to
24:33
Speaker 2: oh and it came back in one, three, two, and
24:36
Speaker 2: then actually went to the second round and lost in
24:38
Speaker 2: seven to the Utah Jazz. They were a fantastic team.
24:41
Speaker 2: Everything was on the rise. Bernie hired me to be
24:43
Speaker 2: their PR director. Dennis was the hit coach and that's
24:47
Speaker 2: where life happens. That's when I started to see the
24:49
Speaker 2: NBA is not linear whatsoever. That year, we uh, we
24:54
Speaker 2: had some struggles. They made a big trade. They kind
24:58
Speaker 2: of broke up a little bit of the chemistry of
25:00
Speaker 2: the team prior to the season starting. We still made
25:03
Speaker 2: the playoffs and my rookie was My rookie year was
25:05
Speaker 2: with Jayla Road. We were looks together and I'll never
25:09
Speaker 2: forget Jalen you know, Straight Detroit, Straight Fab five everything.
25:14
Speaker 2: He brought so much swag to that team. It was awesome.
25:17
Speaker 2: Uh just had a wonderful time with that. But Bernie
25:20
Speaker 2: hiring me, I realized, Okay, how to evaluate talent. Absolutely
25:27
Speaker 2: fantastic talent evaluator, But the relationships and him making connections
25:32
Speaker 2: to me about how players, how important loster construction is.
25:36
Speaker 2: Sometimes the talent take a little lesser talent with a
25:40
Speaker 2: better character might make your roster a little bit better
25:43
Speaker 2: than you think. Just so many different ways of bill rosters.
25:46
Speaker 2: So I learned that and really the biggest lesson looking
25:49
Speaker 2: back on it in my time in Denvers now, it's
25:52
Speaker 2: just wonderful people and it really dawns on you when
25:55
Speaker 2: you started losing them. You know, we lost to Cambay
25:57
Speaker 2: with Tumbo Bys and Daily Williams and Rodney Rogers and
26:03
Speaker 2: Joe Woolf and different people that came through. But you
26:06
Speaker 2: know this is young people. But I remember those moments
26:09
Speaker 2: in time with them and how much you got to
26:11
Speaker 2: value the time you're add people. And I know this
26:14
Speaker 2: is longer answer to your question, but I think when
26:18
Speaker 2: you really look back, when I look back on my
26:20
Speaker 2: time in Denvers, how to value the relationships, how to
26:23
Speaker 2: help people no matter what. And there's great people out
26:27
Speaker 2: there who are huge advocates for you and you don't
26:30
Speaker 2: even know. I know Bernie helped me get my next
26:33
Speaker 2: job in Washington. I know there's a lot of people
26:36
Speaker 2: that did the stuff that I found out about after
26:38
Speaker 2: the fact, and they did it just because they wanted
26:40
Speaker 2: to help me. They didn't advertise it, and I really
26:43
Speaker 2: appreciated that.
26:45
Speaker 1: I mean, it all gets back to that work ethic
26:47
Speaker 1: you talked about earlier. When you show that you're selfless,
26:51
Speaker 1: people then want to help you because it's exceptionally endearing. Tommy,
26:56
Speaker 1: I want to just ask you about one individual who
26:58
Speaker 1: is a common friend of ours from your time when
27:01
Speaker 1: you were in Denver. I started my career with the Rockies.
27:04
Speaker 1: You started your professional career in Denver. There was one
27:07
Speaker 1: man who crossed both our paths. His name is Kelly McGregor.
27:11
Speaker 1: May he rest in peace, unfortunately, but had a profound
27:14
Speaker 1: impact on my career. He was the president of the
27:17
Speaker 1: Colorado Rockies while I was there, a young man who
27:20
Speaker 1: played in the NFL but had just like incredible leadership
27:24
Speaker 1: qualities and they weren't academically trained, they were just god given.
27:28
Speaker 1: He just had this amazing charisma and magnetism around him,
27:32
Speaker 1: and despite being six foot seven and looked like an Adonis,
27:36
Speaker 1: he had the biggest heart I've ever seen in a
27:39
Speaker 1: grown man. His ability to weave you into the fabric
27:44
Speaker 1: of his life and vice versa was a gift I've
27:47
Speaker 1: really never seen replicated in my career. But do you
27:50
Speaker 1: want to share a story or two that you remember
27:53
Speaker 1: about Kelly McGregor.
27:55
Speaker 2: Well, I think both of us we shared a mutual
27:57
Speaker 2: friend named Ray Baker runs Go Old Crowd Foundation in Denver,
28:01
Speaker 2: and there's a tremendous titan in that industry of the buildings,
28:05
Speaker 2: the arenas around Denver and stadiums and stuff, and just
28:08
Speaker 2: has been a great pillar in the community. But so
28:11
Speaker 2: I met Kelly McGregor through Gray and the first time
28:15
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, this guy played football college and now
28:17
Speaker 2: he's in basketball. So Kelly shared his story, Well, I
28:21
Speaker 2: was a football player, now I'm running a baseball team,
28:23
Speaker 2: and we kind of hit it off on that, and
28:26
Speaker 2: you know, he built the Bleak Street Bombers were the
28:29
Speaker 2: greatest show going in baseball at the time, and but
28:32
Speaker 2: the problem was their games last about four hours. So
28:34
Speaker 2: I would dip in and you know, go and where
28:36
Speaker 2: he was sitting, and then they're sweet and go. Oftentimes
28:39
Speaker 2: Ray would be there Bill Hanslick and just go in,
28:43
Speaker 2: poke your head in and sit down and get some wisdom.
28:45
Speaker 2: And then you know, an hour, two hours go by
28:47
Speaker 2: and you look up and you're in the second d
28:48
Speaker 2: He's like, man, I got to get home. But I
28:51
Speaker 2: think the stories that I would say with Kelly would
28:53
Speaker 2: just his his attention to detail of people around him
28:57
Speaker 2: that worked there, what was important to them, mature, they
29:00
Speaker 2: were getting what they needed, and they were trying to
29:04
Speaker 2: establish themselves. He was giving lessons, not preaching, but just
29:08
Speaker 2: showing people that you know, if you do these things,
29:10
Speaker 2: you're gonna be really employable the rest of your life,
29:12
Speaker 2: and you're gonna be a great husband or wife. You're
29:14
Speaker 2: gonna be a great teammate, You're gonna be a great parent.
29:17
Speaker 2: I think he looked so much bigger. His lens was
29:19
Speaker 2: so much bigger to do the right things for the
29:22
Speaker 2: right reasons than just to help the Rockies win a game.
29:25
Speaker 2: And that really resonated with me. He take so much
29:27
Speaker 2: from different people, but with Kelly that that loss was
29:30
Speaker 2: so profound of the community, and I don't think the Rockies.
29:35
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just it's amazing. You go to mcgravy
29:37
Speaker 2: Plaza there and down my Crewer's field and it just
29:41
Speaker 2: it just sweeps you up like dog gone. Why didn't
29:43
Speaker 2: we always lose people like this that are so great?
29:46
Speaker 2: We could help change the world if we can just
29:47
Speaker 2: let them live longer, you know, somehow, some way what
29:50
Speaker 2: a humanitarian care deeply big as eck. I don't think
29:55
Speaker 2: anybody ever want to tangle with him. But you said
29:57
Speaker 2: he was a teddy bear, very nice person.
30:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he left a fulls lifetime's worth of
30:03
Speaker 1: impact on us in only a half of a lifetime.
30:07
Speaker 1: And that's a great compliment to Levy on somebody. So
30:12
Speaker 1: shift shifting gears a little bit, Tommy. You've been known
30:16
Speaker 1: to say that information is the biggest commodity in basketball
30:20
Speaker 1: over your career. How did that change? How did the
30:22
Speaker 1: quantity and quality of information that NBA executives were having
30:27
Speaker 1: at their disposal to make decisions?
30:29
Speaker 2: How did that change? Well? I think analytics has been
30:33
Speaker 2: around forever. There have been great coaches that really knew
30:37
Speaker 2: how to follow the game in a numerical way and
30:40
Speaker 2: very orderly, and they would take a lot of their
30:42
Speaker 2: game plans and stuff right from stats. It's as opposed
30:46
Speaker 2: to their heart or their gut. You know, I always
30:48
Speaker 2: worry about what someone says that I'm going to trust
30:50
Speaker 2: my gut on this, and I said, well, what if
30:53
Speaker 2: you ate some bad food, like well, you know, that
30:55
Speaker 2: might not be good talking here. Let's really have numbers
30:58
Speaker 2: to back it up. I think that the entire shift
31:02
Speaker 2: in the NBA really started when you know, Daryl Morey
31:05
Speaker 2: and his group be a fantastic job of love straight
31:08
Speaker 2: in the importance of information that helps coaches makes decisions,
31:12
Speaker 2: it helps front office makes decisions, and that's just that's logical.
31:16
Speaker 2: I don't know why anybody would ever rebel against that.
31:19
Speaker 2: I think it's a tool, not a compass. I think
31:21
Speaker 2: sometimes there's there's things that you just can't quantify that
31:24
Speaker 2: really really matter. And there's a lot of stuff that
31:26
Speaker 2: we we look at it and we can't figure out.
31:29
Speaker 2: But there's there's five very similar players. So so for me,
31:33
Speaker 2: the information piece is which one really has an exhibited
31:38
Speaker 2: fingerprint history of doing the right thing more often than not,
31:42
Speaker 2: which one learned from lessons that maybe we never repeated yet,
31:46
Speaker 2: which one is going to be the good teammate, which
31:48
Speaker 2: one's self aware, which one's going to be able to
31:51
Speaker 2: take a back seat. You know, so many players in
31:54
Speaker 2: the NBA and the best players on their team, the
31:57
Speaker 2: best players in the conference, the best players in the country,
31:59
Speaker 2: and they come with the NBA and they're not the
32:02
Speaker 2: best player on the team anymore. And that takes a huge,
32:05
Speaker 2: huge surrender of your ego. So what can I do
32:08
Speaker 2: to help win instead of Hey, I'm not getting the
32:11
Speaker 2: shots and I'm not getting I'm not feeling this right.
32:15
Speaker 2: Ego is a very difficult thing. Egos not to your amigo,
32:18
Speaker 2: especially in the NBA. And so when I look back
32:22
Speaker 2: and you start to think about the great players that
32:30
Speaker 2: I've been around, aren't always the best leaders, and they
32:33
Speaker 2: need people around them to help them do their job
32:36
Speaker 2: to the very best. It's a coming upon management to
32:39
Speaker 2: put great people around them great players, certainly, hopefully that's
32:42
Speaker 2: part of the great character. Guys they can maybe canvas
32:47
Speaker 2: the area keep you keep people away from from the
32:52
Speaker 2: top top players. What they need to succeed sometimes is
32:57
Speaker 2: a little less noise, a little less conversation, and how
33:00
Speaker 2: that can translate to everybody. So you need some good
33:02
Speaker 2: people around. You.
33:04
Speaker 1: Know, my experience in professional baseball is one of the
33:08
Speaker 1: biggest mistakes we make is assuming that the most talented
33:11
Speaker 1: player also is the most talented leader in your locker room.
33:15
Speaker 1: And the reality is those guys were captains of their
33:17
Speaker 1: high school team, oftentimes for their college teams as well.
33:20
Speaker 1: But when you get to the pro game, it's a
33:21
Speaker 1: little bit different. We're demanding more out of leadership than
33:24
Speaker 1: just being the most talented player. And I would encourage
33:27
Speaker 1: fans to always look at when you've got a guy
33:29
Speaker 1: in your favorite team, you're like, how does that guy
33:31
Speaker 1: keep getting another contract performance wise, doesn't seem to deserve it.
33:35
Speaker 1: The answer probably is that he's making a huge impact
33:37
Speaker 1: from a leadership standpoint. And when you look at baseball,
33:40
Speaker 1: I've always thought you look no further than the managers.
33:43
Speaker 1: And the average manager is a former catcher in the
33:45
Speaker 1: major leagues, maybe a utility infielder. They're rarely the superstars,
33:49
Speaker 1: the guys who are the Hall of Fame players haven't
33:51
Speaker 1: had a ton of success as managers. They usually are
33:54
Speaker 1: the guys who are the extra player who had to
33:56
Speaker 1: fight for everything they had, but what they had was
33:58
Speaker 1: like exceptional leadership. Skills and those translate, and so oftentimes
34:03
Speaker 1: there's a misguided notion that the most talented guy has
34:05
Speaker 1: to be your best leader when you allow him the
34:08
Speaker 1: freedom just to be the best version of himself and
34:10
Speaker 1: maybe look to other people in the room. Maybe it's
34:12
Speaker 1: the person who is less talented but who does have
34:15
Speaker 1: the ability to communicate, motivate, and inspire the people around him.
34:19
Speaker 1: Those are the guys who are immensely valuable because they
34:22
Speaker 1: achieve two things. One is, they do help lead your franchise,
34:25
Speaker 1: but then they also alleviate the stress from that star
34:28
Speaker 1: player to also try to be the star leader when
34:31
Speaker 1: they know they're not cast to fulfill that role.
34:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it plays the same in the NBA. If
34:40
Speaker 2: you look in the sidelines, a lot of guys didn't
34:41
Speaker 2: play in the NBA. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's
34:44
Speaker 2: a requirement, but if you're going to be in front
34:47
Speaker 2: of players, you have to have some sort of magnetism,
34:52
Speaker 2: some sort of characteristic that's going to bate them believe
34:54
Speaker 2: that if I follow what this guy does and what
34:57
Speaker 2: he's saying we should do tonight, then we're going to win.
35:01
Speaker 2: That that's a trust that you that you build and
35:03
Speaker 2: it's certainly earned and you have to be really right
35:06
Speaker 2: on point with everything that you're saying. And so, you know,
35:10
Speaker 2: we have a lot of very former role players that
35:12
Speaker 2: are now head coaches in the NBA and they're doing fantastic.
35:15
Speaker 2: So one of the best players ever to play the game,
35:18
Speaker 2: Larry Bird, he was a great coach too. But what
35:20
Speaker 2: was fun with Bird is he said, hey, I got
35:22
Speaker 2: three years. They stopped listening to you after three years,
35:24
Speaker 2: and so the rest of the coaches of the NBA
35:26
Speaker 2: got all hurt. They're like, hey, no, that's not true.
35:29
Speaker 2: But Bird was just speaking like a great player, and
35:32
Speaker 2: that always resonated with me that you gotta we worry
35:35
Speaker 2: about everybody on their roster. We do, but the top,
35:39
Speaker 2: top guys, you probably want to worry a little bit
35:41
Speaker 2: more about what they're hearing and what they're seeing and
35:44
Speaker 2: how they can apply the message. This is the expectation,
35:49
Speaker 2: those kinds of things, because Bird said it very clearly
35:52
Speaker 2: and that it resonated with me, and he kind of
35:54
Speaker 2: true plays himself out In the NBA contracts with coaches
35:57
Speaker 2: you hate to turnover, but it usually is three to
35:59
Speaker 2: five years. That's that's kind of how sports are right.
36:02
Speaker 2: If you don't have that connection with players, the proof
36:08
Speaker 2: of concept is going to be with the wins all
36:10
Speaker 2: the time. But sometimes it's really about the sustainability of
36:14
Speaker 2: what you created, the environment, and you know you don't
36:17
Speaker 2: want to have to reinvent your environment every single season.
36:21
Speaker 2: You have to have pillers and you have to have
36:23
Speaker 2: steps to create that environment. And then you have to
36:25
Speaker 2: hold the sacred and you have to hold that standard,
36:27
Speaker 2: and you have to have people that are willing to
36:30
Speaker 2: make sure they're keepers of the standard. It's like the
36:35
Speaker 2: days of one person running an organization, that one great
36:37
Speaker 2: person with all the answers. That's a fallacy. You have
36:40
Speaker 2: to create an area, a team of teams with great
36:44
Speaker 2: people that all connect secute the vision of the person
36:47
Speaker 2: that is certainly at the top, but really that's everybody's
36:50
Speaker 2: vision and everybody has a piece.
36:52
Speaker 1: In tell mere, I think one of the ties that
36:55
Speaker 1: binds all of us together is were fans at the
36:57
Speaker 1: heart of it. And as fans, you want to believe
37:00
Speaker 1: every player wants to win as much as the next guy,
37:03
Speaker 1: and that may be true, but in my experience, there
37:06
Speaker 1: are certain guys who hate losing anymore, and those are
37:08
Speaker 1: the guys who sometimes raise the standards of excellence within
37:11
Speaker 1: your clubhouse and don't allow for that two game losing
37:14
Speaker 1: streak to turn into a five game losing streak. And
37:17
Speaker 1: they also are the guys who have the amazing gravitas
37:20
Speaker 1: to be able to go up to the star player
37:21
Speaker 1: and demand more out of them. You know, most people
37:24
Speaker 1: steer clear of those conversations. They are doing that, and
37:27
Speaker 1: it's you know, sometimes motivated based upon the fact that
37:30
Speaker 1: they just hate losing so much that they are just
37:33
Speaker 1: not going to abide by it, and they're going to
37:35
Speaker 1: do whatever they can within you know, rules and regulations
37:39
Speaker 1: to try to figure out a way to end the losing,
37:41
Speaker 1: to continue the winning, and to maintain the winning despite
37:45
Speaker 1: what maybe going on in the clubhouse around them. One
37:49
Speaker 1: of the things to Tommy that you talk about is
37:51
Speaker 1: your three pillars or humility, hustle, and human connection. We've
37:56
Speaker 1: kind of talked about how you really espouse this notion
37:59
Speaker 1: of hustle in your career. I want to turn to
38:01
Speaker 1: the concept of humility because that's not something in sports
38:06
Speaker 1: that are dominated by these massive personalities, these massive egos,
38:10
Speaker 1: These people who were type A and who do kind
38:13
Speaker 1: of pound their chest and kind of give off this
38:16
Speaker 1: vibe with ownership that the only thing that's prevented this
38:19
Speaker 1: franchise from winning a championship is you haven't hired me yet.
38:23
Speaker 1: How did you when you were building staffs, whether that
38:26
Speaker 1: was coaching staffs or front office staffs in Washington, how
38:28
Speaker 1: did you interview for humility?
38:32
Speaker 2: Well, chances are in the NBA when when we were
38:35
Speaker 2: doing interviews as such, because of that camp that I
38:38
Speaker 2: did in Vegas for all those years, I saw most
38:41
Speaker 2: of the coaches come through from that. That camp probably
38:44
Speaker 2: had twenty five head coaches over the years that became
38:46
Speaker 2: head coaches in the NBA. Saw every player drafted. Yeah,
38:52
Speaker 2: it was a rookie camp. Essentially you break three or
38:54
Speaker 2: four players, but most of them were your top pits,
38:57
Speaker 2: and so you get to observe these players in a
39:00
Speaker 2: real situation. I can't go to San Antonio Spurs practice,
39:04
Speaker 2: but the Spurs were at that camp, and I would
39:06
Speaker 2: watch Mike Budholzer and assistant coach work and he'd bring
39:09
Speaker 2: players with him. I've watched, and you learn so much
39:14
Speaker 2: out on the floor, not in the press conference, not
39:17
Speaker 2: in the you know, I love the big signs on walls.
39:19
Speaker 2: But you know it's true. The culture is not what's
39:22
Speaker 2: on your walls, and it'supposed to within your walls. And
39:24
Speaker 2: we had that camp. It was so special because we
39:27
Speaker 2: all shared. Hey, for the next five days, we're gonna
39:30
Speaker 2: have two of days. We're gonna beat the hell out
39:31
Speaker 2: of each other. We're all gonna get better, We're all
39:33
Speaker 2: gonna learn from each other. Very unique. Time we missed
39:37
Speaker 2: that camp. It's kind of a victim of COVID. But
39:41
Speaker 2: I think the thing that I learned observing time and
39:45
Speaker 2: time again the player that you mentioned, the guy that
39:49
Speaker 2: can talk to the star. It takes a lot of
39:53
Speaker 2: different things, but usually that player was a dam good
39:55
Speaker 2: player too. And somewhere at least in the NBA, most
39:58
Speaker 2: of these guys you're playing a game each other, the
40:00
Speaker 2: top five guys since they're thirteen fourteen years old, So
40:04
Speaker 2: there's always these lists and people like to break out.
40:07
Speaker 2: And I can always tell in the NBA when someone's
40:10
Speaker 2: at a slump where they're kind of bumming out because they'll
40:12
Speaker 2: they'll walk in with their McDonald's team shorts off they
40:15
Speaker 2: were McDonald's All American, or they'll wear one of their
40:18
Speaker 2: collars things and it's a real subtle thing. But then
40:20
Speaker 2: I always try to tune into them and say, what's
40:22
Speaker 2: going on you okay, because that's back when basketball was fun.
40:27
Speaker 2: They're trying to connect to something because right now maybe
40:29
Speaker 2: things aren't going so well, and it's an old touchdowne
40:32
Speaker 2: and it's a real subtle thing that you'll see. I
40:35
Speaker 2: always really try to pay super close attention to what
40:38
Speaker 2: people do in their dark moments, whether they turn to
40:41
Speaker 2: how do they go? And let's make sure that we're
40:42
Speaker 2: always aware of those, those tales, those things so we
40:45
Speaker 2: can maybe maybe get ahead of these things instead of
40:49
Speaker 2: way you tell us the skyfalls and the players that
40:52
Speaker 2: you mentioned that can have those conversations. Hey, peer to
40:56
Speaker 2: peer is the best way I've ever seen to reach
40:59
Speaker 2: you know, the coaches that you can have the GM
41:01
Speaker 2: come down and talk to Tyasa peer to peer. Those
41:04
Speaker 2: are the great teams. That's when a great team was
41:06
Speaker 2: really going. They'll allow themselves the opportunity to listen and
41:11
Speaker 2: learn from somebody telling them when they're wrong.
41:14
Speaker 1: I could not agree with you more. I think it
41:16
Speaker 1: sounds a little bit backwards to fans, but the best
41:19
Speaker 1: teams I've been on, it's the players that enforce the messages.
41:22
Speaker 1: It's the executives who reinforce the messages, not the other
41:26
Speaker 1: way around. It has to come period of peer and Tommy,
41:30
Speaker 1: I'm curious your feelings about the evolution of the transfer
41:33
Speaker 1: portal and what impact do you feel let's have on
41:37
Speaker 1: the development of leadership skills, teammate skills and you know,
41:41
Speaker 1: the sense of unity and culture in college basketball that
41:45
Speaker 1: used to exist no longer really exists. What does that
41:49
Speaker 1: mean when rookies are coming into the NBA are they
41:52
Speaker 1: a little bit behind in their development of some of
41:54
Speaker 1: those teammate leadership skills that otherwise they may have been
41:57
Speaker 1: honing in their college careers.
42:00
Speaker 2: I'm a huge fan of the nil opportunities. I think
42:04
Speaker 2: it's great the kids get an opportunity to make some
42:06
Speaker 2: money in college. I do. I think we have to
42:08
Speaker 2: do a fantastic job and we're not. Right now, I'm
42:12
Speaker 2: helping them. How do I carry this? How do I
42:15
Speaker 2: learn these things on the fly? You know, this big
42:18
Speaker 2: bag of money just dropped in my life. I'm maybe
42:22
Speaker 2: I've never had access to this kind of money. With
42:24
Speaker 2: money brings a lot of people around, a lot of
42:26
Speaker 2: a pipe, a lot of people in your ear. So
42:29
Speaker 2: how do we do this with the idea of what's
42:33
Speaker 2: this going to look like in five years, ten years,
42:35
Speaker 2: Because what's what's happening now is you're hearing everybody talk about, well,
42:38
Speaker 2: how it used to be. We never would do this,
42:41
Speaker 2: we never got there. Well it's not going back. Those
42:44
Speaker 2: things aren't happening. Social media didn't exist. When all the
42:47
Speaker 2: old heads are getting around talking, I always tease him,
42:49
Speaker 2: I said, well, you didn't have social media, you didn't
42:52
Speaker 2: have access to this money you would have taken and
42:54
Speaker 2: if you could, and you didn't have the sports gambling,
42:58
Speaker 2: you didn't have all these pressures these kids. Face it.
43:01
Speaker 2: You didn't have a tablet in your hands since you
43:03
Speaker 2: were an infant. There's so many things that have changed
43:05
Speaker 2: in the last twenty years that we can only look at,
43:09
Speaker 2: but we don't necessarily have that experience that those repetitions
43:12
Speaker 2: of life in that way. So we need to be
43:15
Speaker 2: a lot more astute and how we help people and
43:19
Speaker 2: not point out all the wrong things about this situation.
43:22
Speaker 2: I do think the problem that happened is it's exploded
43:25
Speaker 2: so quickly and there wasn't a lot of structure and
43:27
Speaker 2: not a lot of information and the worst things happen
43:30
Speaker 2: in an information void. I do think it'll self correct.
43:34
Speaker 2: I do think a lot of mistakes have been made,
43:36
Speaker 2: but by and large we're still talking about I'm not
43:39
Speaker 2: saying this to be funny at all, that promise, but
43:42
Speaker 2: the amount of money they're trying to disperse as probably
43:45
Speaker 2: about the a fourth or fifth player an NBA roster makes,
43:49
Speaker 2: So I don't look at it. This is real money.
43:52
Speaker 2: But listen, the big mistakes are the long five year
43:55
Speaker 2: or ten year contracts that have happened in life. They
43:58
Speaker 2: clog up your pay roll. But I think we don't
44:01
Speaker 2: to do a much better job of preparing people for
44:04
Speaker 2: what's going to happen with this money. Comes a great
44:07
Speaker 2: deal of responsibility with this money. Here is the direction,
44:12
Speaker 2: the mandates that we expect. And I think it's okay
44:16
Speaker 2: to expect a lot of from people that you're paying
44:19
Speaker 2: money to, But you also want to be there if
44:22
Speaker 2: you want to create that situation where all these players
44:24
Speaker 2: see the benefit of life after basketball, your basketball family,
44:28
Speaker 2: the life skills that you're going to learn. It can't
44:30
Speaker 2: just be strictly transactional. There's only one champion, and you
44:33
Speaker 2: look at like tonight this football game tonight. The top
44:36
Speaker 2: six pay rolls in college football are not in this
44:39
Speaker 2: championship game. There's two teams, one that has absolutely zero
44:43
Speaker 2: association with football other than they always suck in football,
44:47
Speaker 2: and they probably have the greatest story. It's the Hoosiers
44:49
Speaker 2: of football story going and then Miami's back in the
44:52
Speaker 2: spotlight today. So, as I tell you, money is not
44:55
Speaker 2: always the same. The money's not always going to solve it.
44:58
Speaker 2: It's the culture, the standard, the people.
45:02
Speaker 1: I've always looked at sports through the lens of when
45:05
Speaker 1: you have if you had open free agency and you
45:07
Speaker 1: could move every single year, which effectively the college game
45:10
Speaker 1: has been reduced to that. You kind of promote a
45:14
Speaker 1: band of mercenaries. There's this sense of when the going
45:18
Speaker 1: gets tough, you could just leave. You don't actually have
45:20
Speaker 1: to roll up your sleeves. So look to your left,
45:22
Speaker 1: look to your right, band together and help try to
45:24
Speaker 1: solve the problems. That's where like that team concept starts
45:27
Speaker 1: taking a route. We talked about this in a recent episode.
45:31
Speaker 1: Just as you reference the University of Indiana, we'll be
45:33
Speaker 1: playing Miami tonight, where we're recording on Monday here in Indiana.
45:38
Speaker 1: By any pundit would be to describe as a team
45:42
Speaker 1: that was not one of the most elite talents. They
45:45
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of five star recruits, they're not
45:47
Speaker 1: paying a lot of five star recruits. But somehow the
45:49
Speaker 1: sum of the parts is bigger than the whole. And
45:51
Speaker 1: that's the goal that we all are trying to create,
45:55
Speaker 1: is something where the team is just bigger than any individual.
45:58
Speaker 1: Indiana seems to be the personification. Now. I also imagine
46:02
Speaker 1: that whether they're famous alums, mister Cuban may be contributing
46:06
Speaker 1: handsomely to.
46:07
Speaker 2: That that that school as well.
46:09
Speaker 1: But in the interim, they have some they have the
46:11
Speaker 1: chance to achieve something that you've never seen in our lifetimes.
46:14
Speaker 1: It is the quintessential worst of First, they are the team,
46:18
Speaker 1: and we cover this in a previous episode where they
46:20
Speaker 1: have the losingest school in NCAA Division I history, and
46:25
Speaker 1: they have a chance to win a national championship. In
46:28
Speaker 1: an erarow where the Big ten and the SEC are
46:32
Speaker 1: almost you know, kissing up against the NFL, there's exceptional
46:35
Speaker 1: competition and they're going to end up having a chance
46:38
Speaker 1: to vanquish all of these foes and potentially raise the
46:42
Speaker 1: trophy tonight, which would be exceptional. And as your referenced
46:45
Speaker 1: on the other side of the ledger, you've got a
46:48
Speaker 1: school that was extremely storied, plagued by some some scandal,
46:53
Speaker 1: and now they're back on top again with a chance
46:56
Speaker 1: to re establish themselves as one of the pre eminentve
46:59
Speaker 1: programs in all of sports. And they're coming from what
47:03
Speaker 1: is not considered one of the Power two conferences, which
47:06
Speaker 1: is an incredible thing that the ACC is being represented
47:09
Speaker 1: in this game tonight. It's not an SEC versus SEC
47:13
Speaker 1: powerhouse match up. The SEC is not represented. It's the
47:16
Speaker 1: Big Ten versus the ACC, and there's tremendous storylines. Producer
47:20
Speaker 1: Jason has informed that that conversation went so exceptionally well
47:24
Speaker 1: with Tommy that we're going to split it into two episodes.
47:27
Speaker 1: So please join us next week on Rosters to Rings
47:30
Speaker 1: for the second half of our conversation with Tommy Shepherd,
47:33
Speaker 1: but stay with us through the break. Here on the
47:35
Speaker 1: other side, we've got listener questions with Producer Jason. Welcome
47:49
Speaker 1: back to Rosters to Rings. We are now going to
47:52
Speaker 1: start our most coveted segment. It's producer Wyatt and producer
47:57
Speaker 1: Jason representing our listeners and giving us questions. Producer Wyatt
48:01
Speaker 1: happens to be on CSTA this week. He is at
48:05
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour wearing his golf whites and hobnobbing with
48:10
Speaker 1: other rich millionaires. So producer Jason is sitting in for
48:14
Speaker 1: for producer Wyatt and has a question from a listener
48:16
Speaker 1: for this week.
48:19
Speaker 3: Thanks that and yes, producer, why it is down in
48:22
Speaker 3: the lovely weather of Florida instead of being in Chicago
48:27
Speaker 3: with his You know, he may have known what was
48:30
Speaker 3: going to happen as well and just got out of top.
48:32
Speaker 3: So but anyway with that, really, if we're gonna talk
48:36
Speaker 3: about user questions this week, there's there's one that has
48:39
Speaker 3: like ninety percent of coming in Kyle Tucker Dodgers that
48:45
Speaker 3: where does this end? And and and and to that
48:48
Speaker 3: point for baseball, even I myself, I'm looking at it
48:52
Speaker 3: and just going, man, like, what's the point?
48:56
Speaker 2: You know? Is it?
48:57
Speaker 3: Even it can even any other team that I root
49:00
Speaker 3: for even have a chance. And I just have to say,
49:03
Speaker 3: I just don't know how good for baseball this is.
49:05
Speaker 3: But that's an opinion, and I'll let you state the facts.
49:09
Speaker 1: So I think it's a very insightful listener question. It's
49:12
Speaker 1: one that I think baseball fans, including baseball executives, probably
49:16
Speaker 1: are pondering right now. Kyle Tucker signs a four year,
49:20
Speaker 1: two hundred and forty million dollars deal with the Los
49:24
Speaker 1: Angeles Dodgers, making him one of the highest paid players
49:27
Speaker 1: in the history of the game. The Dodgers, as we
49:29
Speaker 1: all know, whon the World Series last year, did it
49:31
Speaker 1: in a little bit precarious fashion, but nonetheless they do
49:35
Speaker 1: win the World Series. They've been one of the most
49:37
Speaker 1: pre eminent teams in the last decade, and all they've
49:39
Speaker 1: done this offseason is they signed the best reliever on
49:42
Speaker 1: the market in Edwin Diaz, and now they're signing the
49:44
Speaker 1: best position player in Kyle Tucker. It seems as if
49:48
Speaker 1: an embarrassment of riches would be part of this answer,
49:52
Speaker 1: and somewhat disillusioning to teams within their division, within their league.
49:56
Speaker 1: And dare I say within the major leagues? By Mike
49:59
Speaker 1: count and this is back of the envelope, I think
50:01
Speaker 1: they now have twelve players making twenty million dollars or
50:05
Speaker 1: more per year, which is a staggering figure when you
50:08
Speaker 1: consider there are a number of teams that have one
50:10
Speaker 1: at most and some have zero who are making twenty million,
50:13
Speaker 1: And of course a salary alone is not a proxy
50:16
Speaker 1: for how talented the player is. But they've earned those
50:19
Speaker 1: salaries because of performance in the major league level. So
50:21
Speaker 1: if they continue to perform at that level, it stands
50:24
Speaker 1: to reason that the Dodgers are amassing what is closer
50:27
Speaker 1: to an All Star caliber roster than just simply a
50:30
Speaker 1: baseball caliber roster. So I think as we go into
50:34
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, at the end of the season, the
50:36
Speaker 1: collective bargaining agreement expires, the union and the Commissioner's office
50:40
Speaker 1: and the owners are going to need to sit down
50:42
Speaker 1: and decide what business practices are moving forward. And I
50:45
Speaker 1: would say, as somebody who spend a lot of time
50:48
Speaker 1: at least tangentially in those conversations, it seems as if
50:51
Speaker 1: we're at a collision course for change needing to be made.
50:54
Speaker 1: And I would say the signing of Kyle Tucker by
50:57
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Dodgers, and to a secondary extent, the
51:01
Speaker 1: fact that the Mets responded almost immediately by signing bo
51:04
Speaker 1: Baschett to an extremely robust salary at three years, one
51:07
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty six million dollar deal that This is
51:10
Speaker 1: just another indication of the real gap that is existing
51:14
Speaker 1: between the haves and have nots in baseball. And when
51:18
Speaker 1: you have the gap between the highest payroll and the
51:20
Speaker 1: lowest payroll being close to two hundred and fifty million dollars,
51:24
Speaker 1: it is hard to sell parody to the fan base.
51:27
Speaker 1: And I'm sure the Commissioner's office and I'm sure the
51:30
Speaker 1: Union to a certain extent, will be sensitive to that.
51:33
Speaker 1: As every other league is having massive success around having
51:36
Speaker 1: salary caps and they're seeing lead wide success. You're seeing
51:40
Speaker 1: teams like the Oklahoma City Thunder win. You're seeing teams
51:43
Speaker 1: like the New England Patriots and Green Bay Packers have
51:47
Speaker 1: success in the NFL. Smaller markets are prevailing in these
51:52
Speaker 1: other sports. It is really difficult to see a path
51:55
Speaker 1: forward for the real smaller market teams in Major League
51:57
Speaker 1: Baseball to compete data and day out with some of
52:01
Speaker 1: these behemoths. Those that do are exceptional. You know, we've
52:04
Speaker 1: talked about those on the show in the past. The
52:07
Speaker 1: success that Cleveland has had and fleeting success of Minnesota
52:10
Speaker 1: and Tampa and Milwaukee recently, it is really remarkable what
52:15
Speaker 1: they're doing against the backdrop of just the disparity in
52:18
Speaker 1: some of these payrolls. I think this is something Major
52:20
Speaker 1: League Baseball is going to have clearly on their radar.
52:23
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe they're happy that this has now
52:25
Speaker 1: been elevated to this level. I'm disappointed for some fans
52:30
Speaker 1: in the National League West, maybe even the National League
52:32
Speaker 1: to the extent they feel disillusion You still have to
52:34
Speaker 1: compete on the field, but the Dodgers.
52:36
Speaker 2: Look like a prohibitive favorite.
52:38
Speaker 1: Right now to at least contend, if not compete, and
52:41
Speaker 1: ultimately play in and win another World Series in the
52:44
Speaker 1: upcoming year.
52:46
Speaker 3: Dad, one more thing just to this that that kind
52:50
Speaker 3: of came up to is over a billion dollars deferred?
52:54
Speaker 3: Is that can you tell our listeners is that actually
52:57
Speaker 3: sustainable in MLB and or like, because we've got a
53:01
Speaker 3: lot of these questions as well, like how can they
53:03
Speaker 3: do this right?
53:05
Speaker 1: So the short answer to that question is that when
53:09
Speaker 1: you deferred compensation in Major League Baseball, you have to
53:13
Speaker 1: demonstrate that you've invested today to pay the future. So
53:18
Speaker 1: what fans should look at when you see that they've
53:20
Speaker 1: deferred an excessive amount of money, You effectively take the
53:24
Speaker 1: net present value of that and we have to invest
53:27
Speaker 1: year and year out. So forargument's sake, in the show
53:30
Speaker 1: Aotani deal which famously pays them seventy million dollars a year,
53:34
Speaker 1: but it's only two million per year for the first
53:36
Speaker 1: ten and then it's sixty eight million per year in
53:38
Speaker 1: the second ten. In year one, the Dodgers have to
53:41
Speaker 1: pay the two million, but they also have to invest
53:44
Speaker 1: in an amount that in ten years time will pay
53:46
Speaker 1: them sixty eight million in year eleven. So that is
53:49
Speaker 1: their obligation. So that is the way that Major League
53:51
Speaker 1: Baseball make sure that these franchises don't absolutely capitulate by
53:56
Speaker 1: mortgaging their future to try to win today. You have
53:59
Speaker 1: to act, be financially solvent and invest today to pay
54:03
Speaker 1: your players in the future. So while it's not a
54:06
Speaker 1: billion in total, it's still a significant amount of money
54:09
Speaker 1: that they have to account for today to pay their
54:11
Speaker 1: players down the road. And now I just want to
54:14
Speaker 1: say thank you to Tommy Shepard. What a wonderful conversation
54:17
Speaker 1: we had today, so much so that we're going to
54:19
Speaker 1: bring them back. So join us this Thursday and every
54:22
Speaker 1: upcoming Thursday on Rosters to Rings. Please join me. Host
54:29
Speaker 1: bad Levine, Ryan McDonough and other general managers every week
54:33
Speaker 1: for Roster Syrings on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get
54:37
Speaker 1: your podcasts.