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7: Leadership in a Volatile World with Tyler McCann · The Future Herd

0:00
Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh and welcome to the Future Herd.
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On today's episode, I'm joined by Tyler McCann, managing director of the Canadian
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AgriFood Policy Institute, CAPI, and this conversation lands at a charged moment.
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Global trade rules are shifting.
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Alliances feel less stable.
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Food is no longer just food.
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It's leverage, it's security, it's diplomacy, it's risk.
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The ground under Canadian agriculture isn't just moving economically,
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it's moving geopolitically.
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So the question isn't simply how we grow more or export more.
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The question is, do we understand the world we're stepping into?
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Tyler brings a rare vantage point to that question.
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He's worked inside federal decision making.
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He now convenes policy dialogues across the sector, and he speaks with the kind of
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clarity that comes from knowing how power actually operates, where ambition collides
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with bureaucracy, where ideas stall and where they unexpectedly take root.
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In this conversation, we wrestle with what it really means to think
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about the future right now, not as a slogan, as a discipline.
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How do you choose what matters when the list of urgent issues keeps expanding?
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How do you create focus in a sector that's perpetually reacting?
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And how do you push for policy imagination in a culture that often rewards caution.
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We talk about coalition building, about the temptation to stay comfortable about
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whether Canada is seizing this trade moment or sleepwalking through it and
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beneath it all is a deeper tension.
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Whether AgriFood sees itself as a strategic sector in a volatile world,
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or just another industry negotiating the next incremental change.
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If food is power, and indeed my friends, it is, then policy is the architecture of
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that power and the architecture we build now will shape far more than just margins.
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Here's my conversation with Tyler McCann.
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I.
2:22
Hello Tyler.
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Uh, welcome to the herd.
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Tyler McCann: It is great to be with you, Jesse.
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Jesse Hirsh: Now, uh, you're actually the first guest, uh, we're having here in the
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podcast who's kind of out of our pilot phase in that all the episodes we've put
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together so far we're kind of still before we really got our legs and got moving.
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So, uh, I'm really excited today both to talk to you about, uh, the role that
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you have taken on within the sector.
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Uh, the value, uh, use.
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C in policy and policy engagement.
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Um, but in particular, I like starting with the first question of, you know,
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what does the future mean to you?
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Right.
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Do you think about the future?
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When I say, you know, Hey, what's the future?
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Uh, what comes to mind?
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Tyler McCann: Uh,
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what comes to mind just.
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that the future's different.
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And that we're not ready for it.
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And a big part of what I think about every day is I think Canadian agriculture
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and foods had a really good run.
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You know, we've had, especially the last 20 years, but arguably the last 120
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years, um, have been really positive.
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The
3:31
The foundation fundamental,
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been really strong and by and large, everyone that is kind around the system
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has, has been able to benefit from that.
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consumers.
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Processors, exporters, but we've had a pretty, pretty good go.
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But so many
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Jesse Hirsh: fundamental.
3:46
Tyler McCann: that have been so critical to the success of the sector are a
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lot shakier than they used to be.
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And so I think it's important, I kind of understand that, to think about that
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and to think about we should be changing today the future that's coming tomorrow.
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Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
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And you know, I, I'm being a bit coy with the concept of leader in the
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sense that anyone who comes onto the podcast is in my definition of leader.
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But you just expressed an interesting application of leadership right there
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in which not only did you acknowledge the uncertainty that we're facing in
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the future, but yeah, quite frankly, I think you expressed a kind of courage.
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That, that we need to be addressing it.
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And I, I wanna unpack that over the course of our conversation, but I
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have another kind of foundational, uh, question I want to throw at you, which
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is what drew you to the policy world.
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And, and while that may seem kind of self-evident to you.
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When I encounter a lot of farmers, a lot of food people, a lot of
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agricultural people, people, I feel they neglect policy.
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I see.
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They sort of see it as something for experts and not for them.
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And part of what I want to do today is kind of infect people with the
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joy of policy and, and recognize that it's actually a really fun.
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Space to be playing in.
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So what's your origin story?
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What's your lore?
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How, how, how did the world of policy, uh, attract not only your attention,
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but I think also your passion?
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Tyler McCann: Yeah, it's, uh, I'm not sure that there's a great compelling
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origin story, but I, so I started off, uh, working as a political staffer.
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That was my first actually, maybe, maybe it'll be, uh, take a, a couple steps
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back because I think it's, there's some.
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Context that that matters.
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Um, kind of grew
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Jesse Hirsh: Grew up,
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Tyler McCann: a beef farm in Western Quebec.
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Uh, we now, my wife and I have, um, farm, uh.
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10 minutes from where I grew up.
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Uh, I did
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Jesse Hirsh: I did my in
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Tyler McCann: in
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Jesse Hirsh: agricul.
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Tyler McCann: management and technology at McDonald College was gonna be an ag
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banker that seemed to be the career.
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Didn't necessarily wanna be a farmer, wanted to be around the
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sector, wanted to do those things.
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Um, so the plan was basically do do my diploma.
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Um, had a great time at McDonald College doing that.
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Um, then started a degree in ag economics about halfway through
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my first semester in Iowa went.
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This is not for me.
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I was not doing well in my science classes and my math class, my statistics
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class, and I was taking a global food politics class and I went, man,
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this politics stuff is a lot more interesting than all of this stuff.
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applied
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Jesse Hirsh: I,
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Tyler McCann: a political science degree and I applied
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to do the University of Ottawa,
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Jesse Hirsh: and
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Tyler McCann: it
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Jesse Hirsh: it was at the time
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Tyler McCann: so
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Jesse Hirsh: of that
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Tyler McCann: in the fall of 2005.
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There was no
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Jesse Hirsh: election
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Tyler McCann: The conservative government was elected.
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I was interested in conservative
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Jesse Hirsh: politics
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Tyler McCann: my local member of Parliament
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Jesse Hirsh: elected.
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Tyler McCann: transport Minister.
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So the summer of 2006, I was hired as a, um.
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Summer student in the Transport Minister's office.
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Um, so that was my kind of exposure to life and government for the first time.
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So I did that for the summer.
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I worked part-time then in the, in the next kind of school year,
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and then went back to working, uh, as the following summer.
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Sorry, that was 2006, 2007.
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Summer, I worked again as a student in the transport minister's office.
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That fall, that August there was a cabinet shuffle.
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Jerry Ritz was appointed agriculture minister.
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He needed staff.
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I said in the office.
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Do you know if they're looking for somebody, I would love to go do that.
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Um, and, uh, had a kind of very quick kind of process.
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Got offered a job, so I was supposed to go back to doing my bachelor's,
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uh, degree that Tuesday after Labor Day, and I started working for
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the Agriculture Minister instead.
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Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
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Tyler McCann: that was.
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Kind of the life changing moment for me was getting to go work for
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the federal agriculture minister.
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was more interested in the politics part
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Jesse Hirsh: Part of
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Tyler McCann: but uh, also interested in the
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Jesse Hirsh: agriculture.
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Of
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Tyler McCann: And it turns out of the
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Jesse Hirsh: Agriculture part.
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Tyler McCann: Politics of that context is actually the policy space.
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And that is kind of what got me down the road.
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I, I spent some time working for the natural resources minister, but for,
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uh, I guess would've been seven years I worked for the agriculture minister
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federally and, uh, that got me to
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Jesse Hirsh: Where I'm today.
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And do you miss the politics because, uh, I, it sounds to me as if what
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you're arguing, correct me if I'm wrong.
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That what makes agricultural policy unique is it has impact.
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'cause there is a lot of the policy world, which can be abstract, can be
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theoretical, can be uh, you know, quite frankly when you look at the AI policy
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right now, highly speculative, but agricultural policy really does seem to
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impact real communities and real people.
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Is that what keeps you in it?
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Tyler McCann: Uh,
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Jesse Hirsh: this
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Tyler McCann: partly,
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Jesse Hirsh: partly and, and certainly,
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Tyler McCann: um, getting
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Jesse Hirsh: getting to work for the
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Tyler McCann: minister.
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The, the federal minister was, I often joke that like my problem,
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I've been cursed because the first job I had was the best job I've had.
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Uh, it was a chance to really have impact and that ability to have impact
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and influence decisions and outcomes has been really important for me ever since.
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Um,
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Jesse Hirsh: but.
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Tyler McCann: You know, I think that there's this space where, where policy
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is often a, a dirty word I was, was at, uh, earlier this week, uh, the Canadian
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Federation of Agriculture annual meeting, and somebody made a comment at one point
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that they said that they wanted less government intervention in the sector.
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And I think
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Jesse Hirsh: I think that's probably so
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Tyler McCann: of people that would listen would go, yeah, that makes sense.
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We want less government intervention in the sector.
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problem
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Jesse Hirsh: is
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Tyler McCann: that actually.
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Jesse Hirsh: actually
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Tyler McCann: I
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Jesse Hirsh: I don't.
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Tyler McCann: true because what you want is more government
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investment in the sector.
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What you want is more government.
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governments closed science sites.
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I bet people would like those science sites back open again.
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When the federal government is investing in r and d, they are
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intervening in the sector when they are
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Jesse Hirsh: Are regulating or.
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Tyler McCann: or keeping markets open abroad for Canadian exporters.
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That is regulating the intervening in the sector.
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And so I think when I think about kind of the policy world, I think about.
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of those positive opportunities and the positive impact that governments
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can have if it's done right.
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Um, as well as all of the negative things that kind of, the typical
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kind of, when we, when we talk about intervention is a dirty word, know what
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people have in mind, but, but it is,
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Jesse Hirsh: It's hard to think about,
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Tyler McCann: things that happen on farms across this country that
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Jesse Hirsh: don't.
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Tyler McCann: a direct kind of policy impact.
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You know, it, it, it's not like a policymaker.
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Tilling the field.
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if you think about the policy landscape around land use policy, and
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if you think about what that means in Ontario today, whether or not
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that field is farmer's field or is a condo tower is, is a policy decision.
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And so, you know, I think of that, that understanding of how critical it is, how
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much of an impact it is, how much of an influence it can have in, in the success
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or failure of farmers, is something that, yeah, really I find super interesting
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and engaging and keeps me going.
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Jesse Hirsh: And, and I think you just hit it on the nose.
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'cause you're, you're absolutely right that, unfortunately not just
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in agriculture, I think right across society policy has gotten a bad rap
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that people think it's bad when instead it's just a vehicle to what you want.
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Like if you want less regulation, that's a policy, right?
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If you want more regulation, that's a policy.
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A, a friend of mine, vast Bednar, has this great concept of regs to riches,
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that regulations lead to riches.
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And I think the agricultural sector, more so than many others, benefits from
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good policy and at the same time can be disproportionately hurt by bad policy.
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So I, I'm curious both in the context of you kind of being on the inside
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of government and now, you know, kind of being, uh, within the broader, uh,
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ecosphere of ideas and, and engagement.
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How have things changed?
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Like how have engagement levels changed and, and how do you see, uh,
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organizations, whether associations who are there to try to mobilize this opinion
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or government itself and ministry itself?
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How are they responding to this changing policy environment?
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Tyler McCann: It is far more complex than it used to be.
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And so if
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Jesse Hirsh: So if you look at
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Tyler McCann: I'm not gonna have the stats right, but, uh, the federal,
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when, uh, somebody lobbies the federal government, they have to record it
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in the lobby registry, and you have to kinda indicate what it's for.
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And if you go
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Jesse Hirsh: go back to.
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Tyler McCann: in as a political staffer.
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The number of people that were registering that they were lobbying on agriculture
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issues, that they were communicating with the government about agriculture
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issues to kind of where it was.
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Uh, years later there was about a threefold increase in the number of
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people that were registering, uh, communications on agriculture issues.
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That's not, because there are three times more farmers that
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are talking to governments.
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It's because there are many different voices that are engaging on these issues.
12:32
Right.
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And the pressures the governments face are very different.
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And yes, on one hand we've got this reality of declining farm demographics.
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Um.
12:40
Especially when you look at the population growth that we, we've
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seen, like the Canadian farm population is, is quite tiny.
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so on one hand we see that,
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Jesse Hirsh: But there are people.
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Tyler McCann: far more interested and far more engaged on food issues
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and the pressures on governments to respond to agriculture and food issues
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today is very different than it was, you know, up in, in advanced 2015
13:00
whenever I was in, in government.
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And I think that there's, that, a structural change in that,
13:04
that we haven't, that the sector hasn't, hasn't gotten used to.
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There was a time when.
13:09
When a
13:09
Jesse Hirsh: Farmers
13:10
Tyler McCann: farm groups in this country had an issue, they
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could fly to Ottawa, talk to the
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Jesse Hirsh: agri.
13:14
Tyler McCann: talk to the senior leaders in the Ag department, say, here's
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Jesse Hirsh: Here's what problem
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Tyler McCann: And the ag minister in the department would go away
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and they'd fix the problem.
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It doesn't
13:21
Jesse Hirsh: doesn't work that way.
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Tyler McCann: because there's a lot
13:23
Jesse Hirsh: People
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Tyler McCann: a lot of different perspectives on what the problems really
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are, what the solutions are, and what the role of government is in, in fixing them.
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And
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Jesse Hirsh: not.
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Tyler McCann: that, I think the reality is there's, you know, there's a lot of really
13:34
good, smart people inside government, but their ability to understand.
13:38
A complex sector, uh, a difficult dynamic sector like agriculture and food,
13:43
ability to understand that and develop solutions isn't the same as it used to be.
13:46
So not only do you kind of face this kind of broader conglomeration of voices
13:51
that are talking about agriculture issues, you also need to come to the
13:55
table with better solutions than what we've, uh, had to in the past because
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the ability of government to of come up with the solutions themselves
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isn't the same as it used to be.
14:04
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and to what extent is speed or or responsiveness as an
14:08
application of speed part of that issue?
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Because, I mean, certainly for me growing up, the idea that governments moving fast
14:15
was an oxymoron unto itself, and yet now.
14:19
Whether it's, you know, policy issues around CFIA traceability or, you know,
14:24
consultations around high speed rail.
14:27
It seems like the public really moves fast around the conversations they
14:31
have, and that puts a lot of pressure on not just government, but policy
14:36
organizations, uh, uh, to keep up.
14:39
Do, do you see that tension there?
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Tyler McCann: Yeah, so I
14:42
Jesse Hirsh: I think think it depends
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Tyler McCann: the issue and I, and some
14:45
Jesse Hirsh: issues
14:46
Tyler McCann: and some issues move very slow.
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Jesse Hirsh: and I think what we've a is kind the between,
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Tyler McCann: speeds is greater than it than it used to be.
14:55
I
14:55
Jesse Hirsh: I think
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Tyler McCann: The fast issues faster now than they are, than they were
15:00
before, and I think the slow issues are slower than they were before.
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So if you are a priority issue, if you're dealing with something that is
15:07
all of a sudden landed on the front page of the globe, mail is a priority
15:11
of the Prime Minister or of his of the minister, will get attention
15:14
and your issue will move quickly.
15:16
But if it's not.
15:18
It's not gonna move at all.
15:19
I think if you look at, uh, some of the things that you mentioned, traceability
15:22
that you just mentioned, where there were, there's this blow back that flared up as
15:28
an issue weeks, like we're not talking, you almost could say days, all of a sudden
15:33
overnight this, this kind of ignited and the government backed off and, and down
15:38
quicker than they have in, in the past.
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And so I think you see, on one hand you see that happening.
15:43
On the
15:44
Jesse Hirsh: On the other hand.
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Tyler McCann: the Prime Minister.
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Several weeks ago, uh, in his food affordability announcement
15:49
referenced that they're launching or they're gonna launch a, develop a,
15:52
a national food security strategy.
15:54
And what we hear is that they're moving very quickly on that.
15:57
And that's not something that's gonna take years to pull together.
15:59
As was the case when the federal government tried to develop a
16:02
sustainable agriculture strategy, that is something that the Prime
16:05
Minister made the commitment.
16:06
And they're gonna act and deliver on it soon.
16:08
And so
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Jesse Hirsh: So that.
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Tyler McCann: faster.
16:10
and so, so again, I think it, it depends And, and unfortunately for, for more often
16:16
than, than we would like many agriculture issues and many food issues fell into
16:21
that second group that things have moved slower than they have in the past.
16:25
And not only move slower.
16:27
Um, have barely moved at all.
16:30
And that I think, creates frustration.
16:31
And, and I think in my mind, drives home a need for a more focused agenda
16:36
to say we need to really understand what's important and we need to be
16:39
able to articulate what's important.
16:40
And we need to be able to articulate why it's important and what the
16:43
solutions again are that are needed so
16:45
Jesse Hirsh: So that
16:46
Tyler McCann: not
16:46
Jesse Hirsh: not getting all of the issues.
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Tyler McCann: this kind of slow stream of things that barely move along.
16:50
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and let's take a moment to kind of get into the
16:53
weeds there and, and talk tactics.
16:55
So, you know, capi, the Canadian Agricul Agricultural Policy
16:59
Institute, is that right?
17:01
Um.
17:01
Tyler McCann: AgriFood AgriFood.
17:02
So we
17:03
Jesse Hirsh: Yes,
17:04
Tyler McCann: Ag.
17:04
Yeah.
17:04
Jesse Hirsh: correct.
17:05
And, and I, we, we too.
17:06
Here at the future, here at our AgriFood, I need to make more of an
17:09
effort to bring our food friends on.
17:11
Uh, stay tuned to upcoming episodes.
17:14
Tyler McCann: you had Dana, Dana's one of the, Dana's, one of the best food friends.
17:16
We all have.
17:17
Jesse Hirsh: We started at the top and now we gotta keep going at the top.
17:21
Uh, not to rip off that Drake song, but how, how do you
17:26
engage the, the, the ecosphere?
17:28
How do you guys both prioritize the kind of policy issues that you think
17:33
should be getting attention and that you think should be mobilizing
17:36
resources and, and, and how do you.
17:40
Uh, collaborate, mobilize to kind of make that happen, partly because
17:45
policy does take a village agricultural policy even more so, and, and you're
17:50
right, we're, we're in the world, especially now with, uh, the United
17:53
States doing what it does, where every day there could be a new distraction
17:57
that absorbs everyone's attention.
18:00
How, how do you navigate that kind of policy environment, that
18:03
kind of attention environment?
18:06
Tyler McCann: And, and
18:06
Jesse Hirsh: And it's interesting because
18:08
Tyler McCann: we
18:08
Jesse Hirsh: we're a
18:09
Tyler McCann: team of people, uh,
18:12
Jesse Hirsh: working in a small
18:13
Tyler McCann: policy think tank.
18:14
Uh, we are not, uh, we understand that we are a pretty niche thing, a
18:19
pretty unique thing in, in the sector.
18:22
Um, and
18:22
Jesse Hirsh: and as much as.
18:23
Tyler McCann: you, you
18:24
Jesse Hirsh: Talked earlier about
18:24
Tyler McCann: of
18:25
Jesse Hirsh: people are
18:26
Tyler McCann: in policy.
18:26
One of the, one of the challenges that we have in.
18:28
sector
18:29
Jesse Hirsh: country, is that there are a lot different,
18:31
Tyler McCann: doing a
18:32
Jesse Hirsh: different things.
18:32
Tyler McCann: in the policy landscape, and
18:35
Jesse Hirsh: So
18:35
Tyler McCann: there are
18:35
Jesse Hirsh: are,
18:36
Tyler McCann: tenets that are really important and are part of a transformation
18:39
that we've gone through as an organization where want to be relevant and impactful.
18:43
That's something that we think about a lot in what we can do, but we want to
18:47
Jesse Hirsh: we make sure that we're.
18:47
Tyler McCann: gaps and adding value, so we try and not talk about the things.
18:52
That everybody's talking about or if we are talking about them.
18:55
We try and do that in a way that is different and distinct and adds value
18:58
to the existing conversation, and part of that involves respecting.
19:02
The positions and, and kind of roles that other producer groups and, and
19:05
other advocacy organizations play.
19:08
Um, but we see an opportunity often to, to be a bit different.
19:12
And one of the ways that we're different is we do try and convene and engage
19:17
stakeholder groups when we're working on the issues that, that we do.
19:21
I think often what we see in agriculture is that farmers often in just their
19:28
commodities, But maybe even just with farmers tend to like to work in the farm
19:34
community, but so many of our farm issues have these butter impacts or would benefit
19:40
from perspectives beyond the farm gate.
19:41
And what we try and do is bring people together.
19:44
Now, got some feedback on a LinkedIn post recently asking about how many, why
19:48
we didn't have more farmers in a room.
19:50
And we're talking about ag innovation.
19:52
Um, so we understand that that's a bit of a flock, but that's partly
19:55
because we think that these, like the farm voice is important.
19:58
Farm voices in the room and there were representatives
20:00
from farm groups in the room.
20:01
But yeah, we had other people that are there.
20:03
And I think that, I think that one, when we talk about kind of building
20:06
that collaboration, building more support for new ideas, more people
20:09
around the room and engaged in that conversation is, is important.
20:13
Um, but you go back to all of those other voices that are lobbying, the
20:16
more people that we can get on the same page and buy into kind of what
20:20
matters for the sector, the, the better.
20:23
Jesse Hirsh: Now, interestingly enough, you're kind of on some levels
20:26
evoking the, the, the metaphor we've used here, which is the herd, right?
20:31
That there's a group of people who are all doing interesting things.
20:34
A and you guys are acting a as, as the kind of, you know, colleague or or herding
20:40
instrument to both see the opportunities.
20:43
But also to try to bring people together.
20:45
'cause you did say something earlier that I want to, uh, dig deeper on.
20:49
'cause I do hear in, in both the leadership part of the sector, but
20:53
also the policy side of the sector.
20:55
Uh, not so much a desire for unity, but a desire for synchronicity, a desire
21:01
for people kind of to work together.
21:03
So that when the priority comes, there's a kind of a, a, a, a focus
21:07
on resources, a focus on attention.
21:10
I haven't seen that desire as strong in other sectors.
21:14
Other sectors do tend to have more kind of factions or competing interests.
21:20
But, but it still doesn't seem like an easy thing to pull off.
21:23
Like how does that happen?
21:25
And, and, and what role do you see a, a group like yours, a nimble
21:29
group like yours, you know, able to play, given that a lot of the
21:33
larger associations, you know, larger organizations, they move slow and they
21:37
react slow and they deliberate slowly.
21:41
Tyler McCann: Well, and, and so I
21:42
Jesse Hirsh: I
21:42
Tyler McCann: challenge a bit of the premise that the sector actually
21:44
does, speaks with, with one voice.
21:46
I, I hear a
21:47
Jesse Hirsh: hear a lot people.
21:48
Tyler McCann: the sector needs to speak with one voice, but, but man,
21:52
I'm not sure often the sector is as good actually delivering on,
21:56
on what it says it needs to do.
21:58
And I think that the other challenge with that, Jesse, often gets to be in order
22:01
to get on the same page, in order to get that synchronicity that you talked about.
22:05
We end up in this lowest risk common denominator where what that one voice
22:09
is expected to say is this kind of bare minimum, low ambitious kind of support,
22:14
the status quo mantra that everybody can agree to because we haven't been able
22:18
to figure out how do you reconcile often what are legitimate differences in what
22:22
different parts of the, the sector want.
22:24
Different regions of the country want different farm
22:25
sizes or farm farm types want.
22:27
And so in order to kind of deal with that, end up with this space where.
22:34
Where we, we kind of, when we do see people making that effort, speaking with
22:37
that one voice, it ends up so watered
22:39
Jesse Hirsh: Down
22:40
Tyler McCann: I really questioned kind of the full value of it.
22:44
I,
22:44
Jesse Hirsh: I I'll.
22:44
Tyler McCann: I think that there's an important distinction when we think
22:47
about the, how we approach these things in internally, because you
22:50
refer to us as the Coley, but that's not the role that we want to play.
22:53
That's not the role we try and play.
22:55
I'm, I'm trying to kind of think of what that, what a,
22:59
a better comparison might be.
23:00
If you think about the hurt context we may be, are.
23:02
Are more, I don't know, a farmer with a pale of grain that's saying
23:06
like, here's a good idea over here.
23:07
You guys should come here, but hopefully we're attracting, hopefully
23:11
we're attracting people with the good ideas that, that we have.
23:14
But, but it is, it is more of a, you know, we, we talk a lot about
23:19
impact and, and how we kind of think about the impact that we have.
23:22
And, and when
23:24
Jesse Hirsh: when you were advocating for
23:26
Tyler McCann: which is what, what we do, the
23:28
Jesse Hirsh: impact that you have other people.
23:29
Tyler McCann: your ideas.
23:30
Jesse Hirsh: And so
23:31
Tyler McCann: We try
23:32
Jesse Hirsh: try and do that by.
23:33
Tyler McCann: good, smart people together to come up with the ideas.
23:36
These are not like our small team isn't the one that's aren't the ones that
23:39
are, are figuring all of this out.
23:41
But we have the opportunity to work with a lot of really brilliant
23:44
people across the country.
23:46
Bring them together, pull their ideas together, and then
23:49
effectively distill those ideas and share them with the sector.
23:52
And if those ideas are good and they resonate.
23:56
They will get picked up and, and they will get, move forward.
23:58
But, but we are, and I'll say we are, I think moving into more of a
24:02
world where we're trying to be more of that convener more, bring more
24:05
of those people together, see if we can build more of those coalitions.
24:08
there really is this tension because part of that is a spirit of, I. We need
24:13
to find kind of the coalitions of the willing that are willing to stick their
24:16
neck out and say, look it, we think that we need to do different things and we
24:20
need to be a bit bolder and a bit more ambitious, uh, at the end of the day.
24:25
And that may or may not include the, you refer to it as the her.
24:30
I think it's often this blob of organizations that, that exist,
24:34
that, that don't always do well with bold and don't always do well with
24:38
transformative and don't always.
24:41
Think very far beyond where they're at, where they're at today.
24:44
Right.
24:44
You, you've gone through this exercise around thinking about out to 2050.
24:49
Um, I don't think that we do well thinking out to, to 2030 at this point.
24:53
I'm thinking about all of the change that's that's coming.
24:56
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and I, I want to talk about that change.
24:58
'cause you alluded to it, you know, when we started in, in, in terms of the future.
25:02
And, and I do want to take a moment to reinforce your instinct around convening.
25:07
I mean, I, I think Malcolm Gladwell a couple of decades ago maybe talked
25:11
about the power of the convener.
25:13
And, and I've witnessed it my, my whole life that there is no greater
25:17
authority than the person who brings people together in the room.
25:20
And that is where small organizations can have an outsized impact.
25:24
Because you don't need to do the heavy lifting.
25:26
You just need to do the handholding to get people in the room.
25:29
And then whatever happens, you get the credit.
25:31
If it's good, if it's bad, it was everyone else's fault.
25:35
But I, I want to bring up something kind of controversial.
25:38
Well, maybe it's not controversial and that I've been noticing in the
25:42
broader Canadian policy environment.
25:45
Especially in light of this to what you alluded to the changing geopolitical
25:50
environment we find ourselves in that there's a lack of imagination
25:55
that, that we're not sufficiently brainstorming or coming up with
25:59
new ideas or challenging exist.
26:01
Thing ideas in a manner that lends itself to true policy innovation,
26:06
or at least true policy, you know, entertainment from my perspective.
26:11
Uh, uh is that, do you encounter that within the agricultural sector?
26:16
'cause you, I, I think you almost alluded to it, and how do you deal with that?
26:20
Like, how do you try to get people to be more imaginative, courageous,
26:23
curious, uh, when it comes to, uh, imagining what's possible.
26:28
Yeah,
26:28
Tyler McCann: Yeah, so
26:29
Jesse Hirsh: so absolutely,
26:30
Tyler McCann: we run into this and, and it's
26:31
Jesse Hirsh: and it's an interesting challenge because
26:34
Tyler McCann: you know, I
26:34
Jesse Hirsh: I think when we think about
26:36
Tyler McCann: um, so what, one of
26:38
Jesse Hirsh: the.
26:38
Tyler McCann: one of the interesting ways to think about the future is are
26:41
we facing this world of generational opportunity or are we facing this
26:45
world of generational challenge?
26:47
Right.
26:47
And those are two sides of, of the same coin, but I think they're very
26:50
different sides of, of the same coin.
26:52
And I
26:53
Jesse Hirsh: I think.
26:54
Tyler McCann: is hard for people to get their heads to wrapped around because
26:56
that is kind of, things could be better if I make these changes, but that
27:01
requires me to be changer, uh, make these changes that requires me to, to
27:04
be different and maybe or maybe not.
27:06
I'm gonna get this opportunity that's out there.
27:09
I think general cha generational challenge speaks to the fact that
27:12
how you are today is at risk.
27:14
And I think people wrap their heads and understand that better.
27:19
And, and so part of, I think what we try and do and, and, and could risk
27:23
and, and risk management and thinking about risks in the sector is, is a, is
27:26
a big part of the work that we do is to help people understand like there are
27:29
serious risks and what you have today is at risk and, and those fundamentals
27:33
that have been good for you for the last.
27:35
60 years, uh, may not be, uh, there for you in the future.
27:40
And so we should think about that and we should think about how we respond,
27:43
mitigate and manage those, those risks.
27:45
But, but on all of this, when we, when we try and talk about alternatives, I
27:50
think it's become increasingly clear just as you need to go to governments
27:53
and say, here's what the solution looks like when you're talking to, to
27:57
kind of audiences in, in agriculture.
27:59
You need to say.
28:00
Here's what the alternative looks like and here's what the impacts of the alternative
28:04
are, and here's what the consequences of, of the alternative are, because I
28:07
think they really need to wrap their heads around what might be different.
28:12
uh, again, we're a small team.
28:14
Sometimes what we wanna do is.
28:15
Put some ideas out there, get a get reaction.
28:18
And I, I think again, you realize that the kind of, the more maybe out louds the
28:22
idea is the more you need to have behind it so that people don't just dismiss
28:26
it out of head and say, no, that's too crazy, and, and or No, I'm too unsure.
28:30
And so the more you can, can articulate this is what the ideas, this is why we're
28:34
doing it, this is what the consequences are, the easy it is for people to
28:37
engage with that type of content.
28:39
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and myself, what's always attracted me to policy
28:43
is that freedom of imagination.
28:45
And on the one hand, you're right, Canadians historically and and my career
28:50
at the CBC unfortunately was rife with.
28:52
This love to dismiss things that are new, love to dismiss things that don't fit
28:56
into existing kind of, uh, conventions.
29:00
But I do feel, to your point about a generational opportunity.
29:04
Mines are open right now.
29:06
People are considering things they haven't, so, you know, give
29:10
a moment to, let's get right into the muck for a second.
29:13
You know, if you found yourself.
29:14
By accident on the same, uh, elevator, uh, with the Prime Minister.
29:19
You know, if there was one issue that you wanted people to focus on that
29:23
they're not one thing that we should be entertaining or debating whether
29:27
policy or not, what would that be?
29:30
Like?
29:30
What would you instinctively pull outta your pocket of, you know,
29:33
here's to use the social media cliche.
29:36
Here's what people are not talking about that we need to talk about.
29:40
Tyler McCann: So
29:40
Jesse Hirsh: So I think that the issue is
29:43
Tyler McCann: uh,
29:43
Jesse Hirsh: adding value.
29:45
Tyler McCann: I think that we have, we have too much kind of tension
29:48
and friction around this idea.
29:50
I think that that's changing.
29:51
I think there's more of an openness and more of a recognition of it, but,
29:54
but one of the, there's, when I talk about the fundamentals are changing,
29:57
there's a couple of reference points that I go back to and one of them
30:00
is if you look at agriculture and AgriFood, GDP, kinda the size of the
30:03
economy that the sector represents.
30:05
But if you look at primary agriculture share of that and value added agriculture
30:08
share of that primary agriculture share of that continues to increase.
30:13
There are kind of some reasons why that happens, but that inherently,
30:16
in my mind is not a good thing.
30:18
That means that we are losing that value added benefit and
30:21
that value added advantage.
30:24
you look at today in this trade moment that we're in, right?
30:27
We are in this space where as much as we'd like to think that we don't have
30:31
to worry about Trump tariffs because Canadian farmland can't get moved
30:34
south, there are thousands of food manufacturing jobs in this country.
30:38
That exists to service the US marketplace that could get moves out.
30:41
Those are, those are exactly the type of manufacturing jobs that
30:45
Donald Trump wants to repatriate.
30:47
And, and so how do we think through that?
30:49
And if you look at what actually has been kind of 10 pretty good years
30:52
of investment in food manufacturing in Canada has largely been driven by
30:57
market access to the United States.
30:59
If you want to build a plant that's competitive, that's a scale, you need a
31:03
plant that serves not just the Canadian market, but serves the US market too.
31:07
we lose that market access advantage that we have today, don't lose those
31:13
plants because there's a lot of new plants that are, that are in the country.
31:17
But we may lose
31:17
Jesse Hirsh: Lose any investment.
31:18
Tyler McCann: future plants, and we may see the erosion of those plants.
31:21
And so I think for a lot of reasons, we are missing out on how
31:24
do we think about adding value to Canadian agriculture, uh, today.
31:29
Jesse Hirsh: And, and the obvious question follow up to that is
31:33
like, what's the missing piece?
31:34
WW what's the kind of subset of that we should be focusing on?
31:38
Is it a capital issue?
31:40
Is it a knowledge issue?
31:41
Is it an infrastructure issue?
31:43
And, and just to verify that we're, we're talking that I'm thinking
31:46
about what you're talking about, you know, my gut response to
31:49
that is to see more kind of on.
31:51
On premises on farm processing, right?
31:54
The way that a lot of people now are taking the commodities they're producing
31:57
and turning it into products, you know, let alone direct to marketplace
32:01
or direct to other uh, uh, producers.
32:04
How do we shift that focus?
32:07
'cause part of it, I agree, is policy, but I sense part of it may be psychology
32:11
as well, of people understanding kind of what's, what is available to them
32:16
in terms of their operations and in terms of the entrepreneurial mindset.
32:21
Tyler McCann: You know, I think
32:22
Jesse Hirsh: I think
32:22
Tyler McCann: Jesse, so
32:24
Jesse Hirsh: many.
32:24
Tyler McCann: in agriculture and food become cultural issues we need to change
32:28
the way we think that there's this, again, you referred to it as psychology,
32:31
but I, but I think that there's a cultural issue and I, and I think.
32:34
You know, uh, my old boss that I start, uh, that I worked for, the
32:37
agriculture minister, uh, talked about farmers first all of the time.
32:40
We need to put farmers first.
32:42
Um, and I think it creates a dynamic that that reflects the
32:45
mindset that we've had where the agriculture and AgriFood department
32:48
is really the farmer department.
32:51
We need a cultural change to realize that actually what may be
32:54
in farmer's best interest in this country is more focused on processing
32:58
Jesse Hirsh: Mm-hmm.
32:59
Tyler McCann: added, and that may mean kind of the farmer priority.
33:03
doesn't get as funded as much as it used to because the kind of
33:06
scarce resources are going into supporting value, value added.
33:11
but I think there's 2, 2, 2 important things I wanna add onto that.
33:14
One is, I think we need to think about value added as
33:16
more than just food processing.
33:19
It is more than just food manufacturing.
33:21
It is.
33:21
Kind of this
33:22
Jesse Hirsh: Range of things, sustainability, certifications,
33:24
Tyler McCann: there's a premium available for a product that we can
33:26
go out and capture where we can add
33:28
Jesse Hirsh: value
33:29
Tyler McCann: the commodity, the supply chain that way.
33:31
And there's this big space
33:33
Jesse Hirsh: around innovation, how
33:34
Tyler McCann: about, how do we do things different?
33:36
And again, that is a kind of innovation that can add value to the sector
33:39
by driving down costs and making our farmers more competitive to
33:41
developing new products, new markets.
33:43
So I think that there's
33:44
Jesse Hirsh: there's a.
33:45
Tyler McCann: than we think about value added.
33:46
Yes.
33:47
Food processing is a huge part of that.
33:49
I think
33:49
Jesse Hirsh: I think.
33:50
Tyler McCann: that you talked about, Jesse, is, is one of the challenges
33:52
that we have though, is that may mean some more on farm processing, but if we
33:57
actually wanna have scale and impact, that means big facilities and it, and
34:01
it is this tension that we have in in the sector where, do you manage the
34:06
difference between the big and the small?
34:09
Now we often hear the talk about this and I, and I think Dana.
34:11
numbers reflect this, right?
34:13
The vast majority, whatever, 90% of food businesses are SMEs in this country.
34:19
But we often have these 80 20 rules where yes, the vast majority of
34:23
the total number of them are SMEs.
34:26
The big kind of things that actually change GDP numbers that
34:30
get noticed are big facilities.
34:33
And so how do you find that right balance and how do you understand
34:35
that across all of these things?
34:38
One of agriculture's strengths is diversity that we have
34:42
the big and the small.
34:44
But one of agriculture's weaknesses is also the diversity that we have, the
34:46
vague and the small, and kind of thinking through kind of one set of solutions that
34:50
work for everybody, whether or not it's a, a small farmer tried to do on-farm
34:54
value added or Mars and a big plant and the GTA doing the work that they're doing.
34:59
a farmer farming a hundred acres and.
35:02
Western Quebec or a farmer farming 6,000 acres in Saskatchewan.
35:08
We struggle.
35:08
I think, uh, you know, that diversity is, is a challenge,
35:11
and trying to find something that works for all of them is, is tough.
35:14
But,
35:14
Jesse Hirsh: But really.
35:15
Tyler McCann: think about how do we, no matter what we're doing,
35:17
have this reflex around added entrepreneurship, like you talked about.
35:21
I think it's a, like, it changes the outcomes for the
35:23
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
35:24
Yeah.
35:24
And, and I, I, I, I want to dig deeper into the culture piece, but as an aside,
35:29
and this is kind of outside of today's conversation, I think there, it would be
35:33
an interesting case study to look at how Amazon handles distribution, say just
35:37
exclusively here within Canada, and to think about how some of those lessons
35:41
can be applied to the Agri Food Sec.
35:43
There.
35:44
Because on the one hand, it reinforces your point about the need for scale of
35:47
having very large centers that create the kind of optimization possible.
35:52
But at the same time, Amazon has that grassroots capability to get
35:56
anything I want to my door, even in the farm, uh, the moment I want it.
36:01
Um, but again, I digress.
36:03
I I feel that when you
36:05
Tyler McCann: but, so,
36:05
Jesse Hirsh: Go ahead, please go ahead.
36:07
Tyler McCann: you, you,
36:08
Jesse Hirsh: You, you tell me before we hit.
36:09
Tyler McCann: that I could ask you a
36:10
Jesse Hirsh: You can digress, please.
36:13
Tyler McCann: Is your
36:14
Jesse Hirsh: your experience in the sector like firm?
36:15
Tyler McCann: learn from?
36:16
The examples like Amazon.
36:18
Jesse Hirsh: No, I, but I, I asked that question about imagination, uh, due
36:22
to my own personal agenda that I, I do find, I come from the internet world.
36:28
I come from the startup world.
36:29
I come from the world where, throw everything against the wall, see
36:32
what sticks right, and your constant iteration and brainstorming.
36:37
I meet many people in the AgriFood sector who act that way, who live that way.
36:41
To your point, we all love Dana, uh, McCauley, but I also do run into a lot
36:46
of people who are still in a 19th century agrarian model of governance and of doing
36:51
things, and, and that is an obstacle I think, for the sector as a whole.
36:56
I called it psychology.
36:57
You called it culture.
36:58
I think it's a combination of, of both.
37:01
Tyler McCann: And, and, and I guess what, what I struggle with sometimes is that
37:04
it's not like we're reinventing the or or we don't need to reinvent the wheel.
37:07
You know, that, that Amazon model, again, maybe it's not the best model, um,
37:11
uh, but it's a model out there, right?
37:13
It's so how do we understand what works or what doesn't?
37:15
We spend a lot of time talking about innovation these days.
37:18
I talk a lot about the Australian model.
37:19
There is a different way of funding r and d. In Australia
37:23
that I think is very relevant.
37:25
There's a lot of lessons that we can learn.
37:26
That doesn't mean that we transplant the whole thing into here, but it
37:29
means that why don't we look at it and take the best of what works
37:32
there and implant it into Canada?
37:35
But often it seems like the answer to people's kind of people's first
37:39
reaction, and so many of these times is.
37:41
Agriculture's different or Canada's different or this
37:44
doesn't work, this doesn't apply.
37:45
And, and I think there, there are a lot of missed opportunities to learn
37:48
from what others are doing and, and to think, why don't we just take what works
37:51
somewhere else and make it work for us?
37:53
Jesse Hirsh: Well on, on the one hand, there's table stakes, right?
37:55
It it, it's why even though you and I are policy people, you and I are innovation
38:00
people, we're also both farmers, right?
38:03
Because that's part of what allows us to participate in the space.
38:07
But when you evoke.
38:08
Culture, you, you, you, you're giving me the social license to bring up what I call
38:12
the 800 pound gorilla in the room, which is true from a policy perspective, and I
38:18
I ain't talking about Donald Trump yet.
38:20
It, it's true from a policy perspective.
38:22
It's true from an economics perspective, and it's the urban,
38:25
rural divide here in Canada.
38:27
And I underestimated the, the extent to which that difference, uh, I, I influences
38:34
everything, but when I went from living in the city to living in the country.
38:38
I was shocked at how completely ignorant my city friends are about
38:43
rural life and at the same time how misperceived the city is.
38:49
And it strikes me, given our first pass to post politics, given the
38:54
nature of how policy debates happen.
38:56
This is the real problem that we have to deal with.
39:00
If, to your point, we're gonna have a cooperation in which, on the one hand
39:04
we're thinking about how we're funding farmers, but on the other hand, we're
39:07
allocating resources to processing 'cause that benefits everybody.
39:11
That gets us railways, that gets us roads, that gets us the infrastructure we want.
39:15
So, uh, I'm rambling, but I, I kind of feel that this urban, rural split is
39:19
tied to what we're talking about in terms of the culture and psychology piece.
39:24
Tyler McCann: Yeah, no, absolutely.
39:26
And uh, I've talked over the years about, The four Ps that that
39:32
agriculture faces is challenge.
39:33
And one of those is the politics
39:35
Jesse Hirsh: And,
39:35
Tyler McCann: and
39:36
Jesse Hirsh: and that is the space where
39:38
Tyler McCann: we
39:38
Jesse Hirsh: we're in this world.
39:39
Where there is
39:41
Tyler McCann: strong rural urban divide
39:44
Jesse Hirsh: where
39:45
Tyler McCann: urban
39:45
Jesse Hirsh: communities,
39:46
Tyler McCann: one way.
39:48
Jesse Hirsh: urban issues
39:49
Tyler McCann: the attention, rural communities and writings vote the other.
39:53
And so we live in this space where, um, it's really easy for
39:58
the conservative party of Canada to take rural votes for granted.
40:02
to ask where the ag platform was in the last federal election
40:06
campaign from the conservative.
40:08
Uh, as a former conservative staffer that contributed to platforms, it pained
40:12
me not to see, not to see one, uh, not to see one and, and what they put out.
40:17
And, but on the flip side, I guess the liberals had one,
40:19
but it was very like token.
40:20
It was kind of like from the greatest hits, uh, that I'm sure that the
40:23
liberal ag platforms changed much in,
40:26
Jesse Hirsh: And to your point, I think the liberals take urban
40:29
voters for granted, right?
40:31
I think in both cases, they're neglecting the constituencies that they
40:35
should actually be properly serving.
40:38
'cause instead the battle is for the swing votes.
40:40
The battle is for the exurban suburban edges.
40:44
That kind of fall in between these lines and better policy is, is the con, sorry.
40:50
Worse policy is, is the consequence.
40:53
Tyler McCann: That and, and I think it is, um.
40:56
You know, I, so I'm in a, I'm in a nonpartisan position now.
40:59
I'm not involved in partisan politics, but, but I've said to increasingly said
41:03
to people, I think one of our challenges is we need to get more, uh, more
41:07
convinced that there are votes to be had on these issues because, you know, we
41:12
Jesse Hirsh: We can talk about,
41:13
Tyler McCann: great economic impact of the sector, or we
41:15
Jesse Hirsh: we can talk about.
41:17
Tyler McCann: in Ontario.
41:17
There are more manufacturing jobs in food than there is in automotives.
41:22
But if there's not a political advantage.
41:26
It's hard to get kind of attention and engagement on it.
41:28
And so that, that I think is just this, this dynamic and, and it's, it's a,
41:32
Jesse Hirsh: Challenge
41:33
Tyler McCann: the, at
41:33
Jesse Hirsh: at the
41:34
Tyler McCann: and, and it really is,
41:36
Jesse Hirsh: you.
41:38
Tyler McCann: nothing we can kind of do about it or, or, I think that there
41:40
are some things that we can do about, first and foremost is probably how do
41:44
we help, how do we understand that in many rural communities can benefit from
41:48
liberal policies when they're right.
41:50
How do we get past kind of this rural urban divide, this, this kind of piece
41:53
that's there and how do we think about it?
41:55
In a different context, in ways that, that, that aren't, aren't the,
41:58
aren't the way that they used to be.
42:00
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and I, I feel a, one of the mandates of
42:03
this podcast, but also one of the opportunities of the sector is to
42:07
be non-partisan and non-ideological, because earlier you lamented.
42:13
I think legitimately so that often getting everyone on the same page means you really
42:17
dumb it down and you really leave out the meatier parts of a policy opportunity.
42:23
I think that we are in a position to start coming together
42:27
around both methods and, uh.
42:30
Priorities that allow us to achieve complexity and nuance and unity precisely
42:37
because we say we don't gotta be partisan, we don't gotta be ideological.
42:42
There's enough commonality and, and interestingly enough, I actually think
42:45
the processing piece is part of that.
42:47
I acknowledge that there are a lot of people threatened by it.
42:50
There are a lot of people who feel that it could be a zero sum situation.
42:55
But I think once you really kind of crunch the numbers and understand
42:59
the global dynamics, processing is the area that lifts all boats, right?
43:04
The, the same way that I, I kind of feel that Fin Dana's organization has
43:08
a similar approach where they really want to raise all boats, and those are
43:13
the policy approaches that I think it's a lot easier to get everyone on side
43:17
boat, which is why, again, I'm giving you guys the, I'm, I'm saying convening
43:21
is definitely the path forward to this.
43:24
I'll be devil's advocate, especially since uh, uh, you are, uh, so
43:27
brilliant and generous here with your time and attention.
43:31
What is the obstacle to that happening, right?
43:34
If, if Jesse the newbie is saying, Hey guys, if we focus on the priorities
43:38
and the system and try to, you know, limit the, the partisan bickering,
43:43
we can accomplish something.
43:45
Am I naive or are there things here that I, I'm not seeing that would make this
43:49
harder than, than what I'm imagining?
43:52
Tyler McCann: You
43:52
Jesse Hirsh: You know, I think.
43:53
Tyler McCann: um.
43:54
This is very much my kind of strong personal that, that the,
44:01
that the challenge at the core of that is that farming is a
44:05
tough, business farmers often are.
44:11
Being squeezed and under threat and are worried that if they give an inch,
44:16
somebody else is gonna take a mile.
44:18
And you know,
44:19
Jesse Hirsh: You know, there's.
44:20
Tyler McCann: important context to some of those things that I see.
44:22
So as farmers hard and struggle, but.
44:26
average farm family is worth a lot more and makes more than the
44:30
average Canadian family, right?
44:31
So there's like, again, two sides to many of these coins.
44:33
But, but
44:34
Jesse Hirsh: But all of that.
44:35
Tyler McCann: like the reality is again, I think that there's this, this
44:38
pressure and when you're under the pressure all of the time, again, you may
44:41
not be as willing to kind of embrace.
44:44
of a focus away from you and onto somebody else.
44:46
We run into this a lot when we talk about risk management programming in Canada.
44:52
We have effectively had the same framework for risk management
44:55
programs a little bit different.
44:56
We've, I guess, more provincial companion programs in Ontario.
44:59
There's RMPE, but there's this suite of programs across the country that have
45:03
largely been the same for 25 years.
45:06
The world has changed, the technology has changed.
45:08
The other options and tools are there are different, but farmers are really
45:12
reluctant to talk about changing to risk management programs because I
45:16
think when they think about change to risk management programs, they
45:18
think about fewer monies going to support their risk management needs.
45:22
They think about they're gonna lose and, and that when you're worried
45:26
about losing all of the time, your ability to embrace thinking
45:29
differently really gets to be tough and it really gets to be a challenge.
45:34
Jesse Hirsh: And, and I, I kind of wanna acknowledge and validate that psychology
45:38
because the other thing that shocked me, uh, when I became a farmer is the extent
45:43
to which farmers are constantly circled by sharks of all sorts, shapes and sizes.
45:49
And, you know, I once had a farmer say, uh, frame it quite brilliantly, which
45:53
is, you know, we're the only people who, uh, uh, buy retail and sell wholesale.
45:58
Right.
45:59
Like you're on the wrong side of all the different economic mixes.
46:03
So I, I get the kind of, uh, economic paranoia, but at the same time as you've
46:09
been repeating through our conversation today, times have changed, right?
46:14
We're in a different world.
46:16
We're still figuring that.
46:17
Out.
46:18
We're still, uh, uh, that's where the collaboration piece, I think is best
46:23
done as the opposite of dumbing down.
46:25
But of, uh, each one teach one of all of us helping each other.
46:29
And that's where I wanna throw you a, a, a bit of a self-serving
46:33
question, but nonetheless, uh, a a a kind of, uh, giving you respect.
46:38
I love the podcast, uh, that you guys at Cap are doing with real agriculture.
46:43
'cause I really feel it makes.
46:45
This kind of knowledge accessible podcasts are very popular amongst farmers.
46:50
You can listen to it while you're doing your chores, while you're in the tractor.
46:53
Social media is obviously also very popular with farmers.
46:57
Um, so I'd love to hear about how that's going and, and how you feel
47:01
that fits into the larger kind impact, uh, driven nature, uh, uh, of Kappy.
47:07
'cause I, I, I'm a fan and it's.
47:09
Partly what motivated me to say, Hey, let's do more podcasting.
47:13
'cause I think this is how we enact that cultural change and, and, and really start
47:18
to reach people and open their minds.
47:21
Tyler McCann: Yeah.
47:21
And, and one of the, the dynamics that we've got in the sector is that
47:25
this isn't, uh, you know, the auto manufacturers where there's kind of
47:28
five big players, and if you get their CEOs on the same page, you fixed it.
47:31
We've, we've got, uh, 150,000 farmers in the country.
47:35
Um, this is a very diffuse group and, and trying.
47:39
Like, we
47:39
Jesse Hirsh: We realize that if we wanna have,
47:41
Tyler McCann: we need to meet people where they are and talk about the
47:43
things that we're talking about in ways that resonate with them.
47:46
And
47:46
Jesse Hirsh: so the podcast,
47:47
Tyler McCann: is, is part of that, right?
47:48
It is
47:49
Jesse Hirsh: how do we
47:50
Tyler McCann: take content, make it more digestible, but also how do we
47:52
make it available in ways that, as you say, people can listen no matter what.
47:56
I, I,
47:58
Jesse Hirsh: I,
47:59
Tyler McCann: am
47:59
Jesse Hirsh: I'm a big fan of
48:00
Tyler McCann: to the podcast when I'm out in the tractor.
48:03
Jesse Hirsh: what are the things that we're trying to do now on the podcast?
48:05
Tyler McCann: with this, this most recent focus is
48:07
Jesse Hirsh: How do we talk about,
48:08
Tyler McCann: kinda the big ideas for change?
48:10
Jesse Hirsh: how do we do this?
48:11
Tyler McCann: way that hopefully is not threading?
48:12
How do we do it in a way that's easy, that's, that's engaging, that
48:15
you say kind of breaks things down?
48:16
I'm trying to talk to people about.
48:18
Um, that have big ideas.
48:21
Some big ideas are actually kind of small, but they are
48:23
like big transformational ideas.
48:26
of the ideas that we, we, we just had an episode come out recently
48:29
on, uh, embracing benchmarking and business management.
48:33
One of, I talked about the challenges we have with risk management.
48:36
We put a lot of money and time and focus into risk management programming.
48:41
We put very little into proactive risk management decisions, and I think that
48:46
there's really something to be said for.
48:48
Man, we should take a little bit of money that's floating around in
48:51
the ether of all of these programs
48:53
Jesse Hirsh: Incentivize.
48:54
Tyler McCann: uh, uh, business management benchmarking.
48:58
How do we kind of fund the resources so that farmers could become part of
49:01
a, a benchmarking group, could make their data available, learn from others?
49:06
Understand this, like, like the fact that that just seems like such a simple.
49:11
Impactful way to take a little bit of money and go a long, long way.
49:15
So, uh, you know,
49:16
Jesse Hirsh: that's that.
49:17
Tyler McCann: little idea, big change.
49:18
I think.
49:18
Um, uh, it is, it is, it ends up being a big idea because we're not doing that.
49:23
That, um, that's not a reflex that this idea that.
49:26
That proactive risk management, that farmers are their own first line of
49:29
defense is an idea that's gotten lost.
49:31
When governments think about risk management.
49:33
We've also talked about supply management and the future of supply management.
49:36
That's maybe more of a bigger, more controversial idea, but, but
49:39
we really see this need to kind of put those ideas out there and.
49:43
And again, put them out and not in a way that says this is the solution.
49:46
I, I really, I think this is in part, kind of informed by my, my startup in the
49:52
politics, but I really don't think that there is a right answer on any of this.
49:57
There are just different ideas.
49:59
With different pros and cons and different consequences, and
50:02
Jesse Hirsh: So.
50:02
Tyler McCann: we'll put our ideas out there.
50:03
We wanna create the space where we can put more ideas out there, have that
50:06
more, understand what those pros and cons are, understand what the consequences
50:09
are, and then people get to make their own decisions at the end of the day,
50:12
whether or not they think that they're the right ones or the wrong ones.
50:14
Jesse Hirsh: And, and that's why I think policy is such an exciting area right now.
50:18
'cause on the one hand there is a kind of butterfly effect that you evoke that
50:23
even the smallest idea people can go Wow.
50:26
Yeah.
50:26
And really wrap their head around it.
50:28
Then the distribution of that idea via TikTok, via Instagram, via
50:34
x can happen at a rapid speed.
50:37
And it's why I'd love to see more policy leaders, more ag leaders doing what you're
50:41
doing, which is having these conversations on a regular basis and letting people
50:46
make up their own minds, right?
50:47
Letting them figure out, like get the information and, and move forward with it.
50:52
Um.
50:53
I, I that kind of li as we start to come to a close, it kind of brings
50:58
us to the real variable throughout all of this whi, which is the United
51:02
States and the Trump Administration, and granted the SMA or U-S-C-M-A,
51:08
however you want to rearrange the acronym, uh, is a hot topic, uh, within
51:13
agricultural circles for very good reason.
51:16
But it seems to me that the constant is uncertainty.
51:20
I, I'm, I'm, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
51:23
You've, I think, been alluding to it.
51:25
I think it's been a through line in terms of, you know, we need to be adapting to
51:29
this new world, but on a. Concrete level.
51:32
I would love to hear your kind of informed perspective on kind of
51:36
what's going on and, and what we should be doing to prepare for it.
51:39
Both on the AgriFood level but also on the geopolitical level.
51:43
'cause they're, uh, intrinsically linked.
51:47
Tyler McCann: And I, I
51:47
Jesse Hirsh: Encourage to go
51:49
Tyler McCann: YouTube channel because we've had two webinars this year.
51:51
One was an Outlook, uh, for 2026, and the other one was, was explicitly
51:55
on geopolitics, but we, on for
51:57
Jesse Hirsh: the
51:58
Tyler McCann: webinar,
51:58
Jesse Hirsh: we looked.
51:59
Tyler McCann: farm economics.
52:00
We looked at farm sentiment, we looked at farm policy and foreign politics,
52:04
U-S-M-C-A was kinda the elephant in the room and all, I guess it wasn't the
52:08
elephant in the room, it was very much called out as, as the major challenge.
52:13
know, the FCC economist that was on the webinar effectively said,
52:16
look at, these are our projections.
52:18
But if Donald Trump rips up the agreement, all bets are off.
52:21
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
52:21
Tyler McCann: will
52:21
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
52:22
Tyler McCann: a bad year, right?
52:23
If you look at from the foreign politics perspective.
52:26
You know, we understand what the year looks like.
52:28
We understand how the year goes.
52:29
If Donald Trump asked for something crazy on supply management,
52:32
you know, all bets are off.
52:33
From a political perspective, it is such a big challenge at the end of the day.
52:38
And it's interesting because I think we are starting to see a bit of a
52:41
shape politically, nationally, around how Canada should approach the United
52:46
States and the rest of the world.
52:48
I think that.
52:49
Actually at the end of the day when it comes to the United States, the,
52:52
the kind of perspective of the prime minister and the opposition leader
52:55
are probably pretty similar in that we need to defend Canadian interests and
52:59
yes, we should get a deal at all costs.
53:01
But I think both are pretty aware that, you
53:03
Jesse Hirsh: You know that, that, that idea,
53:05
Tyler McCann: a tariff free deal.
53:07
It probably not realistic at this point in time.
53:10
Jesse Hirsh: well
53:10
Tyler McCann: when we
53:11
Jesse Hirsh: think about.
53:11
Tyler McCann: what that means for agriculture and food and, and what that
53:14
means for the broader relationship, a couple of things that I think
53:18
are really important to understand.
53:19
We can handle tariffs as long as we have a tariff advantage.
53:24
you know,
53:24
Jesse Hirsh: Like
53:25
Tyler McCann: a 10%
53:25
Jesse Hirsh: 10% tar,
53:27
Tyler McCann: not ideal.
53:27
I don't think that's in anybody's interest.
53:29
That's not, that's not great, that's not predictable,
53:32
Jesse Hirsh: but we do have an
53:34
Tyler McCann: compared to the rest of the world.
53:36
And so understanding what that looks like and, and kind of the level of the
53:39
tariff and the impact that that's there.
53:41
So, so that doesn't necessarily mean we need to light our hair on fire,
53:44
Jesse Hirsh: there.
53:45
Tyler McCann: situations where we may need to light our hair on fire that
53:48
may have really dire consequences.
53:50
And as much as we like to talk about trade diversification.
53:54
The reality is, is that is extremely hard in agriculture and food,
53:59
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
53:59
Tyler McCann: This isn't just a, a question about bulk commodities,
54:03
almost every product that we produce, the best and easiest market is going
54:08
to be the United States, and it is hard to build the infrastructure
54:11
needed to really diversify and, and the sector today, or maybe not today.
54:18
well probably even today, probably even today, more concentrated in the United
54:22
States market than it was 20 years ago.
54:24
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
54:25
Tyler McCann: American Free Trade Agreement kind of
54:27
supercharged that integration.
54:29
You talk about those investments that we've got in plants in, in Ontario.
54:32
I mean, one, one
54:33
Jesse Hirsh: One of the great,
54:34
Tyler McCann: stories is bakery goods.
54:36
I don't think people know that we're a major exporter.
54:38
Bakery goods into the United States.
54:40
We have a $4.5 billion trade surplus with the United States on bakery goods.
54:46
Um, like
54:47
Jesse Hirsh: all of that.
54:48
Tyler McCann: on that, that meaningful market access.
54:51
And so we need to get through this year, we need to get through the next couple
54:54
of years with a reliable trade deal.
54:57
And, and then we need to think through.
54:59
If that doesn't happen, what does probably transition look like?
55:03
And, and, and one
55:03
Jesse Hirsh: And one of the challenges.
55:05
Tyler McCann: all of this is.
55:07
Kinda the predictability because even if there was a sense that maybe we may,
55:12
something bad may happen for the next year or the next two years, there's a hope
55:16
that return back to normal after that, then that takes some pressure off, right?
55:21
Like, like it reduces the motivation to change and transition.
55:25
And I think that that's really the, the challenge that we're in today
55:28
is how do you plan for the future?
55:30
I talked about change, talked about the future, but, but how
55:33
Jesse Hirsh: How do you.
55:33
Tyler McCann: that future's gonna look like when.
55:36
When it hasn't, hasn't arrived yet.
55:39
When there are kind of big differences and, and where there are, where
55:43
there's kind of the length and, and the duration of that changes and unknown.
55:47
The final point, Jesse, that I think is really important is, or maybe two points.
55:50
One, we have more leverage than we think that we do.
55:53
And I really do think that that's, that often gets lost in this, is that,
55:57
um, you know, if you look at the, kind of the technical arrangements.
56:01
What's that happens this summer is a review process and as part of that
56:06
review process that, that any one member of the agreement could provide
56:10
a notification, but that effectively starts a 10 year clock That, that
56:14
the agreement only ends 10 years ago.
56:16
But
56:16
Jesse Hirsh: But there is another alternative,
56:18
Tyler McCann: is somebody just gives the six months notice to
56:19
say they're walking away, but.
56:22
Jesse Hirsh: that will have devastating.
56:23
Tyler McCann: on the US economy.
56:25
Like the president may threaten that, but I dunno,
56:28
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
56:28
Tyler McCann: it's gonna happen.
56:29
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
56:30
Tyler McCann: so like,
56:30
Jesse Hirsh: So, so like understanding the.
56:31
Tyler McCann: that we have is really important um, and, uh,
56:36
happens, I forgot what the, the other part I was gonna make is, but
56:38
Jesse Hirsh: Oh, sorry.
56:39
Tyler McCann: The other thing, the other thing is that, and
56:41
this is I guess part of the.
56:43
Part of the leverage.
56:45
But, but I think that if you look at what a lot of, we have more allies
56:48
in the United States and, and even on something like supply management,
56:51
if you look at what the US dairy industry is saying, you know, they're
56:55
not asking for the end of the system.
56:56
That's not what they want.
56:57
And so I think it's really important to understand, you know, the, the
57:01
president's got his own views, his own, his own desires on these
57:03
things, but I think it's important.
57:05
For Canadians to understand more of the facts and kind of look beyond the
57:09
hysteria that we seem to live in, in this space to know what is the dynamic
57:13
that we're really operating in when it comes to, to customer renegotiation.
57:17
Jesse Hirsh: Uh, although potentially contentious follow up, do you think
57:20
the federal government, uh, uh, values or prioritizes the AgriFood
57:26
sector compared to all the other competing agendas that they need to
57:30
be looking at in this, uh, uh, chaos?
57:35
Tyler McCann: So the, the Prime Minister went to China and
57:37
Jesse Hirsh: Effectively trade.
57:38
Tyler McCann: for canola.
57:40
You know, like that says a lot to me.
57:42
Uh, I mean, let's be honest that I don't think that would've happened
57:44
into the past Prime Minister.
57:46
You can get
57:46
Jesse Hirsh: Mm-hmm.
57:46
Kind of
57:47
Tyler McCann: arguments
57:48
Jesse Hirsh: about.
57:48
Tyler McCann: of the scale and the understanding and, and kind of the
57:50
trade-offs that were there, but, The Prime Minister came back from China with
57:56
Scott Mo kind of locked arm in arm and
57:58
Jesse Hirsh: Mm-hmm.
57:59
Tyler McCann: to what he was doing.
58:00
that says a lot to me, I think, about how the current, uh,
58:03
government is thinking about it,
58:05
Jesse Hirsh: Is very different.
58:06
Tyler McCann: than when it comes to supply management.
58:08
And I think, uh, the unfortunate reality that heard for.
58:14
Producers in the sector understand and appreciate is that government
58:20
is gonna put the Canadian economy at risk to protect supply management.
58:24
And so if the US said, and I don't think that this is what's gonna happen, but
58:28
if Donald Trump said, we're gonna leave everything the same, you're gonna get
58:31
your tariff free access, but you need to tear down all of your dairy protections.
58:36
I think it's a very easy decision for the Prime Minister to make.
58:39
Jesse Hirsh: And, and I, from the scuttlebutt that I'm reading amongst the
58:43
agricultural sector, the, the concern is there, there's a lot of people who
58:47
are doing the kind of game theory you're doing of trying to anticipate this.
58:52
This has been an absolutely fantastic conversation.
58:55
Uh, if only because it indulges my own kind of desire to reinforce the value of.
59:01
Policy as a playground for anybody and everybody.
59:06
Uh, because I, I, I think one of the truisms that we've teased out
59:10
is that there aren't crazy ideas.
59:12
There's just boring debates, and that debates get more interesting
59:15
when you have more ideas.
59:17
Uh, any final thoughts or, you know, uh, uh, things you kind of want to leave
59:22
us on, especially a, as we kind of.
59:25
Think about what our audience, the through line for our audience, which
59:29
is, you know, we need leadership, we need new kinds of leadership.
59:32
That's kind of what I've been hearing you, uh, hearing you talk
59:35
about and say throughout this.
59:37
So, anything you wanna leave us with,
59:40
Tyler McCann: Yeah, I think
59:42
Jesse Hirsh: we
59:42
Tyler McCann: we
59:42
Jesse Hirsh: leaders that are prepared, make
59:45
Tyler McCann: When I
59:45
Jesse Hirsh: talk about.
59:46
Tyler McCann: change that's there, it means that we're gonna
59:48
need to do things differently.
59:50
And again, I think we've had the luxury of not having to make big, tough decisions.
59:53
I think our governments have not had to make big, tough decisions.
59:56
I think our farm leaders have not had to make tough decisions.
59:58
I think farmers make decisions every day on their farms.
1:00:01
Deciding things, making choices be that hard.
1:00:04
But if we wanna really unlock the full potential of the sector, we
1:00:08
need to be prepared to make, make some decisions, make some choices.
1:00:11
That's what's in front of us.
1:00:12
And I think to your point, that's where advocating for ideas, putting different
1:00:16
thoughts out there, helping, making sure people are making informed decisions is a
1:00:20
big part of the role that we're playing.
1:00:21
And something that I get really excited about.
1:00:23
Jesse Hirsh: Right on a big Canadian salute to you.
1:00:27
Our, uh, uh, automated audience has been enthralled with this conversation.
1:00:32
Uh, where can people learn more, uh, about Cap?
1:00:35
About you, Tyler, about the work you guys do?
1:00:38
Tyler McCann: Yeah,
1:00:39
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah, they could go
1:00:40
Tyler McCann: our website and sign up for our mailing list.
1:00:43
website is CAPI ipa.ca.
1:00:48
Uh, sign up to our mailing list.
1:00:49
That is the best place to stay tuned with all that we're doing the.
1:00:52
But they should also go check out our YouTube channel, our webinars go there.
1:00:55
There's some pretty good content.
1:00:56
Our podcasts are, our episodes are there as well, and they should check
1:01:00
that out and people should feel free to engage with us on kind of all the
1:01:04
social medias and all of these things.
1:01:06
I maybe not often the best on it, but, but one of the things that we really wanted to
1:01:09
do is encourage more debate and dialogue.
1:01:11
So the more people that are talking about the work that we're doing, telling
1:01:14
us where they think that we're right, telling us where they think that we're
1:01:16
wrong, um, that makes us really happy.
1:01:18
We always appreciate the, appreciate the feedback and engagement.
1:01:21
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
1:01:22
Thank you.
1:01:25
That was my conversation with Tyler McCann from the Canadian
1:01:28
AgriFood Policy Institute.
1:01:31
What I really appreciated about this exchange is the
1:01:34
refusal to drift into fatalism.
1:01:37
Yes, the trade environment is volatile.
1:01:40
Yes, geopolitical pressures are intensifying.
1:01:43
Yes, policy processes can feel slow, fragmented, cautious,
1:01:49
but there is also movement.
1:01:50
There are coalitions forming.
1:01:52
There's momentum building.
1:01:54
There are ideas gaining traction.
1:01:57
There are people inside and outside government who understand
1:02:02
that food is not peripheral.
1:02:04
It's foundational.
1:02:06
If there's a thread running through this conversation, it's this.
1:02:10
The future is not something that arrives.
1:02:13
It's something that gets organized.
1:02:15
Organized through focus, organized through courage, organized through institutions
1:02:21
willing to convene hard conversations and not flinch when complexity shows up.
1:02:28
The AgriFood sector in Canada has more leverage than it sometimes realizes.
1:02:33
The question is whether we use this geopolitical moment to think bigger
1:02:37
about value added production, about resilience, about sovereignty, about
1:02:42
the kind of leadership this era demands, or whether we settle for incremental
1:02:47
adjustments while the world reorders itself around and maybe without us.
1:02:53
Momentum is building.
1:02:55
The stakes are rising, and the opportunity is real.
1:02:59
If this conversation sparked something for you, hey, share it.
1:03:03
Push it into your networks.
1:03:05
Start a conversation in your own organization about what future
1:03:10
you are actually building toward.
1:03:13
This is the future herd and we're just getting going.