Latest / The Bolt Report / The Bolt Report | 10 September

Transcript

The Bolt Report | 10 September · The Bolt Report

0:11
Speaker 1: This is the Volt Report.
0:14
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me on The Bolt Report. I'm James McPherson.
0:17
Speaker 2: Here's what's coming up tonight. The escalating war of words
0:20
Speaker 2: between Andrew Hastie and Pauline Hanson reaches fever pitch. Senior
0:24
Speaker 2: One Nation MP Barnaby Joyce reveals his personal take on
0:28
Speaker 2: the feud. You will not want to miss my interview
0:30
Speaker 2: with him coming up very shortly. The legal fight between
0:34
Speaker 2: a breastfeeding expert and a transgender woman who breastfed her
0:37
Speaker 2: son is heating up. One of the lawyers on the
0:40
Speaker 2: case joins me with the latest. Plus, former Australian of
0:43
Speaker 2: the Year Grace Tame has backtracked on claims she made
0:46
Speaker 2: in March describing the rape of Israeli women on October
0:49
Speaker 2: 7 as propaganda. My panel will unpack that as well
0:53
Speaker 2: as Moira Deeming's move to family first.
0:57
Speaker 1: Before we get to all of.
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Speaker 2: That, though, John Howard has told the Australian newspaper that
1:01
Speaker 2: the war on terror is a war that will never end.
1:06
Speaker 2: Speaking on the eve of the 25th anniversary of the
1:08
Speaker 2: 9-11 attacks, the former PM said he had changed his
1:12
Speaker 2: mind about how long the conflict will last.
1:15
Speaker 1: Whereas he once thought it would be a.
1:17
Speaker 2: Long, protracted war, today he believes, and I quote, there
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Speaker 2: is no end to the fight. He told The Australian,
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Speaker 2: it's like learning an additional language that just won't go away.
1:29
Speaker 2: And the attacks were like no other war declared against
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Speaker 2: a group of nations and their values.
1:34
Speaker 1: And he's right.
1:36
Speaker 2: The war on terror is like no other, not least
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Speaker 2: because we refuse to even talk about it in intelligible terms.
1:42
Speaker 2: When Ukrainians talk about the war on Russia, well, there's
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Speaker 2: no ambiguity. The war on Russia doesn't leave you wondering
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Speaker 2: who they're at war with. I literally just said it.
1:51
Speaker 2: It's the war on Russia. But if I refuse to
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Speaker 2: mention Russia and only ever spoke about Ukraine's war on,
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Speaker 2: I don't know, drones, well, whilst true, it would tell
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Speaker 2: you nothing about who they were at war with. Of course,
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Speaker 2: speaking only about the war on drones would have certain advantages.
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Speaker 2: For a start, it would make things far less awkward
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Speaker 2: when you met a Russian on the street.
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Speaker 1: And speaking only about the.
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Speaker 2: War on drones would also make border policy much easier
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Speaker 2: and less controversial. After all, not too many drones are
2:22
Speaker 2: applying for permanent residency, so no hard decisions required.
2:27
Speaker 1: You see where I'm going with this, don't you?
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Speaker 2: If John Howard wonders why the war on terror will
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Speaker 2: never end, well, perhaps the first clue is in the name.
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Speaker 2: You can't defeat what you refuse to name. The truth,
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Speaker 2: that 25 years after 9-11, we still don't want to
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Speaker 2: talk about, is that we're not at war with terrorism
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Speaker 2: any more than Ukraine is at war with drones.
2:49
Speaker 1: Terrorism is a tactic.
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Speaker 2: We're at war with a version of Islam that seeks
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Speaker 2: to subjugate non-Muslims. Now, we can argue about whether it's
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Speaker 2: the real Islam or a perverted distortion of Islam, and
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Speaker 2: that's an incredibly important discussion. But at least that discussion
3:06
Speaker 2: would start to home in on some specifics.
3:09
Speaker 1: Admittedly, from there it gets messy.
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Speaker 2: If Islam itself is fundamentally at odds with the West,
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Speaker 2: what are we supposed to do about that? We've welcomed
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Speaker 2: it with open arms, funded it and given it special protections.
3:22
Speaker 1: Try unscrambling that egg.
3:24
Speaker 2: On the other hand, if Islam itself is benign, but
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Speaker 2: a perverted distortion of Islam is posing an existential threat
3:30
Speaker 2: to the West, how do we distinguish between the good
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Speaker 2: Muslim from the radical, the model citizen from the jihadi? That,
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Speaker 2: in essence, is what Pauline Hanson was trying to get
3:40
Speaker 2: at in her much-discussed interview with my colleague, Shari Markson,
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Speaker 2: earlier this year.
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Speaker 3: I've got no time for the radical Islam. Their religion
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Speaker 3: concerns me because what it says in the Koran, they
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Speaker 3: hate Westerners, and that's what it's all about. You know,
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Speaker 3: you say, oh, well, there's good Muslims out there.
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Speaker 4: Well, I'm sorry.
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Speaker 3: How can you, you know, tell me there are good Muslims.
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Speaker 2: Out Hansen was accused of saying there were no good Muslims,
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Speaker 2: which is not what she was saying at all. She
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Speaker 2: was asking, albeit clumsily, how one can tell the difference
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Speaker 2: between the Muslim who wants to follow Muhammad's example as
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Speaker 2: a religious man and the Muslim who wants to follow
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Speaker 2: Muhammad's example as a warlord. And this is where the
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Speaker 2: problem becomes particularly difficult. Violent Islamic ideology doesn't live in
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Speaker 2: a defined area. It lives in people's hearts and minds.
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Speaker 2: It doesn't wear a uniform and it typically doesn't announce itself.
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Speaker 2: Sometimes even family members seem legitimately surprised that a son
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Speaker 2: or a daughter suddenly went full jihad.
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Speaker 1: Now, I'm not going to sit here and pretend I've got.
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Speaker 2: All the answers to this, but what I do know
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Speaker 2: is that whilst ever it's too dangerous to even talk
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Speaker 2: about these things honestly, you can be sure John Howard
4:54
Speaker 2: is right.
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Speaker 1: The war on... Terror will never end.
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Speaker 2: And my fear is that in the West, we've effectively
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Speaker 2: conceded that point. Unable or unwilling to address what's going on,
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Speaker 2: we've quietly resigned ourselves to a never-ending game of whack-a-mole
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Speaker 2: with terror whilst hoping that we and everyone we know
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Speaker 2: will dodge a bullet or a bomb or a knife
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Speaker 2: or a speeding truck that takes a sudden interest in
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Speaker 2: a Christmas market. That's not a strategy for victory. That's
5:23
Speaker 2: a strategy for survival. So it begs the question, what's
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Speaker 2: really changed since 9-11? Well, I would argue that we have.
5:33
Speaker 2: There's no plan to defeat Islamic terrorism, only to manage it.
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Speaker 2: And we've convinced ourselves that we can. It's a hell
5:40
Speaker 2: of a gamble. Well, the war of words between Andrew
5:47
Speaker 2: Hastie and Pauline Hanson is looking less like a political
5:51
Speaker 2: fight and much more like a political death roll. The
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Speaker 2: two have now locked into each other with such ferocity
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Speaker 2: that neither seems capable of letting go. And that's the problem,
6:02
Speaker 2: because when two politicians become so determined to destroy each
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Speaker 2: other that neither can disengage, there's usually only one clear winner.
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Speaker 1: And that's Anthony Albanese.
6:13
Speaker 2: The increasingly bitter feud between Hastie and Hanson is an
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Speaker 2: absolute godsend for the Prime Minister. Have you noticed that
6:20
Speaker 2: while the number of people being drawn into this spat
6:22
Speaker 2: continues to increase, Anthony Albanese has been remarkably quiet? Albanese
6:29
Speaker 2: is no SAS veteran, and unlike Andrew Hastie, Albanese probably
6:33
Speaker 2: doesn't spend his hours reading and rereading The Art of War, but...
6:37
Speaker 2: The PM would certainly be familiar with the wisdom of Napoleon,
6:40
Speaker 2: who famously advised, never interrupt your enemy while they're busy
6:44
Speaker 2: making mistakes. Like most wars, the origins of this one
6:49
Speaker 2: are foggy, depending on who you're talking to. But the
6:52
Speaker 2: basic problem is pretty straightforward. Support for One Nation had
6:55
Speaker 2: been growing in Andrew Hastie's West Australian seat of canning.
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Speaker 2: One Nation thinks through him with a real chance of
7:01
Speaker 2: unseating the rising Liberal star, who himself realises he's in
7:05
Speaker 2: the fight of his political life just to stay in
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Speaker 2: the Parliament. Hastie complained that One Nation was running a
7:11
Speaker 2: dirty and nasty online campaign against him. And then, understanding
7:17
Speaker 2: the best form of defence is offence, he accused Pauline
7:21
Speaker 2: Hanson of calling him a traitor. Now, an episode of
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Speaker 2: One Nation's satirical cartoon series did do that a couple
7:29
Speaker 2: of times.
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Speaker 4: Traitor?
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Speaker 1: Why are they calling you a traitor?
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Speaker 5: I don't know.
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Speaker 2: All I did was testify against Ben Robert Smith and
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Speaker 2: support your evil hate speech legislation.
7:38
Speaker 1: That is pretty traitorous, actually.
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Speaker 4: I'm a stupid traitor!
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Speaker 1: I feel bad for the traitor. Hasty's a paranoid traitor. Traitor.
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Speaker 6: Sell out.
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Speaker 1: Why is everyone calling me a traitor then? Because you
7:47
Speaker 1: are a traitor.
7:48
Speaker 2: But Pauline Hanson denied she'd called Andrew Hasty a traitor.
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Speaker 3: I don't think he's a traitor.
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Speaker 1: Which was technically true.
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Speaker 2: She hadn't personally called Hastie a traitor. It was the
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Speaker 2: cartoon that she signed off on, the cartoon she provides
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Speaker 2: voiceovers for, the cartoon she has pinned to the top
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Speaker 2: of her social media feed so it's impossible to miss.
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Speaker 5: I would say that Pauline Hanson and Barnaby Joyce are
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Speaker 5: lying cowards. And I'll say it again so there's no ambiguity.
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Speaker 5: They are lying cowards. When you start calling me a
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Speaker 5: traitor to my own country, then we have a big,
8:22
Speaker 5: big problem.
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Speaker 2: Should One Nation's cartoon have referred to a former SAS
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Speaker 2: veteran as a traitor, even a satire?
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Speaker 1: Probably not. Is it grounds for World War III? Probably not.
8:35
Speaker 2: But Andrew Hastie has decided to make it so. He
8:38
Speaker 2: chose to frame the cartoon as a terrible insult not
8:41
Speaker 2: just to himself, but to other brave soldiers who have
8:44
Speaker 2: served our nation.
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Speaker 5: Are they saying the same thing of the other 20
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Speaker 5: SAS combat veterans who gave evidence under oath in the
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Speaker 5: federal court? Are they also traitors to their country?
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Speaker 1: But he went even further than that.
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Speaker 2: And this, to me, is the clue that Andrew Hastie,
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Speaker 2: no doubt personally offended by being called a traitor, even
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Speaker 2: as satire, saw his personal offence as his political opportunity.
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Speaker 5: They don't get to define Anzac Day or Anzac or
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Speaker 5: the values that underpin our Defence Force.
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Speaker 1: Well, that escalated quickly.
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Speaker 2: Hanson's cartoon series mocked Hastie as a traitor for testifying
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Speaker 2: against Ben Robert Smith and for supporting Labor's hate speech legislation.
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Speaker 2: How did we suddenly end up talking about Anzac Day?
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Speaker 2: I think we all see what's going on here. Hastie
9:36
Speaker 2: and the Coalition have been searching for a One Nation
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Speaker 2: vulnerability to exploit and now they believe they've found one.
9:42
Speaker 2: It's a long shot, but the strategy is pretty clear.
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Speaker 2: Use Hanson's mockery of a former soldier specifically to question
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Speaker 2: her commitment to all soldiers generally and to Australian values
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Speaker 2: more broadly. It's a mission, but there was no shortage
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Speaker 2: of people willing to be conscripted for the fight, not
10:01
Speaker 2: least of all Hastie's brother-in-arm, Senator James Patterson, who parachuted
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Speaker 2: into the conflict.
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Speaker 7: I would never dream of accusing someone who has served
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Speaker 7: in uniform for our country of being a traitor. I
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Speaker 7: think they should be ashamed of themselves. And I think
10:15
Speaker 7: Pauline Hanson showed real weakness last night in her interview
10:18
Speaker 7: with Chris Kenny, where she refused to take responsibility for
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Speaker 7: a cartoon. which is pinned to the top of her
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Speaker 7: X page, which she authorises, which she provides the voiceover for.
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Speaker 7: The candidate, Mark Nicholson, sorry, the cartoonist Mark Nicholson is
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Speaker 7: her number one candidate in the northern metro region in
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Speaker 7: Victoria in the state election coming up. She refused to
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Speaker 7: take responsibility, but she also refused to repeat those words
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Speaker 7: about Andrew Hastie. I think that shows weakness and I think, frankly,
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Speaker 7: she should toughen up and take responsibility.
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Speaker 1: Andrew Hastie then went for the throat.
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Speaker 2: He accused Pauline Hanson of hiding behind cartoons and memes
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Speaker 2: and thus demonstrating she was unfit to be in government,
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Speaker 2: which sounds fair until you look at the memes produced.
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Speaker 1: By those in government.
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Speaker 2: And yet, as entertaining as all this was, I couldn't
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Speaker 2: help but think it was missing something. I couldn't quite
11:12
Speaker 2: put my finger on it at first and then I
11:14
Speaker 2: realised what this war really needed was a loose cannon.
11:18
Speaker 2: And then, as if on cue, Senator Jackie Lambie stormed
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Speaker 2: the ramparts.
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Speaker 8: What she's doing in those cartoons is absolutely disgusting. Attacking
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Speaker 8: Andrew Hastie, a veteran that has served in our Afghanistan
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Speaker 8: war or any other veteran, is the lowest ebb you
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Speaker 8: can possibly do. That woman is nothing less than a
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Speaker 8: bloody coward. She always has been and she always will be.
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Speaker 1: Shots fired, but that was just the first volley.
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Speaker 8: She wouldn't last one day in that goddamn uniform. Leave
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Speaker 8: our veterans alone, Hanson.
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Speaker 1: And then she went full scorched earth.
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Speaker 8: She's disgusting. Like I said, she's the lowest bit of
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Speaker 8: life you can possibly come from with that woman. I'll
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Speaker 8: tell you what, you're seeing her true colours start to
12:00
Speaker 8: shine now.
12:02
Speaker 2: Now, if you enjoyed that, there's a lot more when
12:04
Speaker 2: I talk to Barnaby Joyce in just a moment.
12:06
Speaker 1: But here's my question.
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Speaker 2: Whilst entertaining in the same way that Married at First
12:10
Speaker 2: Sight is mildly entertaining, do voters really care? Andrew Hastie
12:16
Speaker 2: risks looking like an SAS soldier who survived the Taliban
12:20
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, only to be mortally wounded by words from
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Speaker 2: a former fish and chip shop lady coming out of Ipswich. Meanwhile,
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Speaker 2: Pauline Hanson risks looking like a person who complains about
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Speaker 2: unfair pot shots, only to take a few cheap shots herself.
12:35
Speaker 2: And Barnaby Joyce, well, not for the first time of late,
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Speaker 2: he finds himself walking onto the battlefield as the peacemaker.
12:43
Speaker 6: I've said, look, my door's open. If you want to
12:45
Speaker 6: talk about this, he thinks I'm a liar. I don't
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Speaker 6: quite know what he believes a liar about. I'm disappointed
12:50
Speaker 6: he thinks I'm a coward. I don't think he's a traitor.
12:53
Speaker 6: I absolutely respect the services given to our nation.
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Speaker 2: And somewhere in the background, Anthony Albanese is watching all
13:00
Speaker 2: of this unfold because when your political opponents are busy
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Speaker 2: locking their jaws onto each other and performing their own
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Speaker 2: political death roll, even Anthony Albanese is smart enough to
13:10
Speaker 2: know your best bet is to stay right out of
13:13
Speaker 2: the water. Well, earlier this afternoon, I spoke with One
13:20
Speaker 2: Nation MP Barnaby Joyce and I said to him, it's
13:23
Speaker 2: been quite the week.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's certainly been quite the week and obviously started
13:29
Speaker 6: with super, which is where I wanted to be. And
13:32
Speaker 6: it's amazing hearing the Labor Party talking about how the
13:35
Speaker 6: sanctity of super when there's $ 1. 2 billion stolen off the
13:38
Speaker 6: people in the First Shield and Guardian accounts.
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Speaker 2: Barnaby, I guess Barnaby, I'm not really talking about policy wise.
13:47
Speaker 2: I'm really talking about for One Nation, it's been quite
13:49
Speaker 2: the week.
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Speaker 9: Yep.
13:53
Speaker 2: With regards to the feud between Pauline Hanson and Andrew Hastie,
13:58
Speaker 2: there's fault on both sides here, isn't there?
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Speaker 6: Look, first of all, I was unaware of the cut
14:05
Speaker 6: until yesterday. Since I was depicted as a tomato, I
14:09
Speaker 6: didn't watch it that much. Now, Mr Hastie feels great
14:14
Speaker 6: umbrage about it. And for that, I apologise. It's nothing
14:17
Speaker 6: to do with me, but I apologise and I respect
14:22
Speaker 6: his service like I respect my family's service and anybody
14:26
Speaker 6: else who's served this nation. I'll leave the issues that
14:30
Speaker 6: are other things that are before the courts before the courts.
14:33
Speaker 6: I must admit, I'm a bit perplexed as to why
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Speaker 6: I'm a liar or a coward. I couldn't quite get
14:38
Speaker 6: that bit. And I'm sure things will move on as
14:42
Speaker 6: they always do around here.
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Speaker 1: Sorry, Barnaby, why are you apologising?
14:48
Speaker 6: Well, if I see a person who's hurt, you know, and,
14:52
Speaker 6: you know, obviously I don't believe Mr Hayes is a traitor.
14:57
Speaker 6: Of course, that's an absurdity. He's not. And, you know,
15:01
Speaker 6: but if I believe a person's hurt and I listen
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Speaker 6: to it and I think, no, that's fair enough, you're
15:06
Speaker 6: not a traitor, therefore, you know, if you feel hurt
15:09
Speaker 6: by that, because, you know, you think it's too close
15:13
Speaker 6: to the bone even though it's a cartoon, and I'm
15:15
Speaker 6: not making excuses because it's a cartoon, but it wasn't
15:18
Speaker 6: actually said by anybody in One Nation to him, then
15:23
Speaker 6: nonetheless it should be apologised for, so I apologise.
15:29
Speaker 2: Should One Nation remove the cartoon that calls him a
15:31
Speaker 2: traitor eight times?
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Speaker 6: Well, I don't... I... That's... Beyond my pay grade, that,
15:37
Speaker 6: isn't it? I'm not responsible for putting the cartoons up
15:41
Speaker 6: and I'm not responsible for taking them down. So, you know,
15:44
Speaker 6: that's not a discussion for me. That's, you know, I've
15:48
Speaker 6: made a statement. I've apologised to him. I move on
15:51
Speaker 6: because there's other things that are more important to be
15:54
Speaker 6: discussing around here right now.
15:56
Speaker 2: Your party leader, Pauline Hanson, has that cartoon pinned at
15:59
Speaker 2: the top of her social media, bearing in mind that
16:02
Speaker 2: you don't believe he's a traitor, that you acknowledge he's
16:05
Speaker 2: very hurt by this. Should your party leader remove that
16:09
Speaker 2: from the top of her social media feed?
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Speaker 6: Well, Ms Hanson spoke to that. She's saying it's a
16:16
Speaker 6: cartoon and... You know, I don't speak for Pauline and,
16:21
Speaker 6: you know, so that's a question for her. She doesn't
16:25
Speaker 6: ask me what I put on my social media posts
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Speaker 6: and I don't tell her what she puts on hers.
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Speaker 1: Would you be more comfortable if she did?
16:32
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I've done what I need to do
16:35
Speaker 6: and if Mr Hasty feels hurt by that cartoon, and
16:39
Speaker 6: he does, then I apologise for that hurt. And, you know,
16:45
Speaker 6: I don't really want to sort of dwell on it,
16:47
Speaker 6: I've made my statement. It's quite clear. I actually, I
16:50
Speaker 6: reached out to Mr.
16:51
Speaker 9: Hasty.
16:52
Speaker 6: I sent him, you know, a letter last night or
16:54
Speaker 6: a note last night and said, you know, I'm happy
16:55
Speaker 6: to discuss this issue, if that would help at all.
17:03
Speaker 6: And that's, I can't really think what more I can
17:05
Speaker 6: do about that.
17:07
Speaker 2: What response did you get from Andrew Hasty when you
17:09
Speaker 2: reached out?
17:11
Speaker 6: Well, I'd keep that private, you know, whether I have
17:15
Speaker 6: or whether I haven't or what was said, if it had.
17:17
Speaker 6: I would always keep that private. You know, I think
17:20
Speaker 6: it's important to say that you reached out because people
17:22
Speaker 6: would know, well, what did you do to sort of
17:26
Speaker 6: back in the fact that you've said, sorry, and I've
17:29
Speaker 6: done that. But I wouldn't go into the details of
17:31
Speaker 6: anything else that was pertinent to that.
17:34
Speaker 2: You've had a long history with Andrew Hastie, worked with
17:37
Speaker 2: Andrew Hastie. And as far as I can understand, a
17:40
Speaker 2: very good relationship. How would you describe the relationship as
17:44
Speaker 2: of right now?
17:46
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, I don't know. I'm not a liar
17:50
Speaker 6: and I'm not a coward. But if there's something I've
17:55
Speaker 6: done that's cowardly or some aspect that I've lied to him,
18:01
Speaker 6: as long as I know what it is, I'm happy
18:02
Speaker 6: to address it.
18:04
Speaker 2: Jackie Lambie had this to say about the leader of
18:07
Speaker 2: your party, Pauline Hanson, earlier today.
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Speaker 1: Have a listen.
18:09
Speaker 6: Well, I can even see that she's... Let me just play.
18:12
Speaker 1: It for you first.
18:13
Speaker 8: Anybody that hides behind a cartoon.
18:17
Speaker 6: and.
18:17
Speaker 8: Goes after a veteran and calls them a traitor, a
18:19
Speaker 8: paranoid traitor and a washed-up gutless maggot? I have to say,
18:23
Speaker 8: you're a bloody maggot yourself and you're a coward. She
18:26
Speaker 8: has no idea of patriotism, that woman. She has no...
18:30
Speaker 8: You don't attack veterans and you don't stand like a
18:33
Speaker 8: coward behind your goddamn cartoons. That woman is disgusting! She's
18:39
Speaker 8: just disgusting because of what she does. She's dividing this country.
18:43
Speaker 8: She is dividing it. She's not uniting it. She's an
18:46
Speaker 8: angry little woman with so much baggage on her that
18:49
Speaker 8: everybody else and her supporters think that is acceptable behaviour.
18:54
Speaker 1: Barnaby, what's your response to that?
18:56
Speaker 6: Reeps a lock at her. It speaks for itself, doesn't it?
19:00
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't know. Where do you start? Where
19:03
Speaker 6: do you start with that, Senator? You know, it... Was
19:08
Speaker 6: it dignified? If she had a message, did you get
19:11
Speaker 6: a sense of some sort of dignity and gravitas in
19:14
Speaker 6: how it was presented to you, or did you feel
19:16
Speaker 6: that it was sort of self-filling theatre?
19:20
Speaker 2: Can you see why Jackie Lambie has felt the need
19:23
Speaker 2: to get involved, though, as a former service person?
19:27
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I've got no problems with her being involved.
19:31
Speaker 6: That's not the issue. The issue is just sort of
19:33
Speaker 6: extension of temperament and then sort of this... blasting all
19:39
Speaker 6: over the place. I just don't think it's dignified.
19:42
Speaker 2: Are you worried that this whole fight is going to
19:46
Speaker 2: damage One Nation with servicemen? Andrew Hastie says it's not.
19:50
Speaker 2: just about him, it's about all who served under the
19:53
Speaker 2: Australian flag. Are you worried that you could have a
19:56
Speaker 2: backlash here?
19:58
Speaker 6: Well, obviously, I'm very aware... I have a lot of
20:02
Speaker 6: my very close friends who obviously were and are servicemen
20:06
Speaker 6: and women, and... I'm very aware of that. You know,
20:10
Speaker 6: I was in the services myself. I didn't serve overseas.
20:12
Speaker 6: I was only in the reserves. But I'm very, you know,
20:15
Speaker 6: I'm not blind to this issue. And I know that
20:18
Speaker 6: there's a lot of contention around Mr Robert Smith. And,
20:23
Speaker 6: you know, I've heard both sides of the argument on
20:26
Speaker 6: this one.
20:28
Speaker 2: Your Victorian State Party leader, Warren Pickering, has had a
20:31
Speaker 2: turbulent week defending his past. He's had the strong support
20:34
Speaker 2: of the party and Pauline Hanson. And I thought he
20:36
Speaker 2: spoke pretty well on Monday, all things considered, when he
20:40
Speaker 2: addressed allegations levelled against him. But Senator Hanson seemed to
20:45
Speaker 2: undo all that good work when talking to my colleague,
20:48
Speaker 2: Chris Kenny, last night.
20:49
Speaker 1: Have a look at what happened.
20:51
Speaker 3: There's still a lot there.
20:53
Speaker 6: No, I withdraw that.
20:55
Speaker 3: There's not a lot there because it was all exposed yesterday.
20:59
Speaker 3: I stand by Warren Pickering and guess what?
21:01
Speaker 1: Hang on a second.
21:02
Speaker 4: What did you mean there's still a lot there?
21:04
Speaker 1: What did you mean there's still.
21:05
Speaker 4: A lot there?
21:07
Speaker 3: There's not still a lot there.
21:10
Speaker 2: Barnaby, what did Pauline Hanson mean when she said there
21:12
Speaker 2: was more to come?
21:13
Speaker 6: Well, look, I don't know. I think... Mr. Kenny thinks
21:19
Speaker 6: that there's some great secret and he's discovered the holy
21:23
Speaker 6: grail of truth. No, I believe that what you mean
21:27
Speaker 6: there is in the family's support of Mr. Pickering. Remember,
21:34
Speaker 6: it's not just his daughter. His daughter isn't his. It's
21:36
Speaker 6: a completely captivated viewing, to be quite frank. And then
21:39
Speaker 6: his stepson said that, you know, I wouldn't be anywhere
21:42
Speaker 6: in my life if it wasn't for this bloke. And
21:45
Speaker 6: his daughter saying, it's been a great dad. And I
21:48
Speaker 6: got a sense of, to be honest, I got a
21:50
Speaker 6: sense of just lay off him for goodness sake. I mean,
21:53
Speaker 6: something two decades ago from a very fracturous and breakdown
22:00
Speaker 6: in a relationship that he had had, the acrimony that
22:06
Speaker 6: always surrounds things when they become sort of heated is
22:09
Speaker 6: being sort of brought up now as a representation of
22:14
Speaker 6: the character of the person we see today. Now, I
22:16
Speaker 6: don't know. If that is the rule we'll play by,
22:19
Speaker 6: I don't know where you want to start, but everybody
22:23
Speaker 6: better line up in front of the media confessional and
22:26
Speaker 6: drop their guts on everything that ever happened in their
22:28
Speaker 6: life at any point of form, and then after which
22:30
Speaker 6: there'll be no sort of redemption. You will just be
22:35
Speaker 6: held to account for sections of your life, which I
22:39
Speaker 6: think is.
22:40
Speaker 4: It's really....
22:43
Speaker 6: Minimizing, isn't it? People make mistakes. And then what's about
22:48
Speaker 6: it is, do you fix it up? Do you move on?
22:50
Speaker 6: Do you make yourself a better person? And Warren's obviously
22:54
Speaker 6: done precisely that. He went into the services. We've just
22:56
Speaker 6: been talking about people in the services. He went into
22:58
Speaker 6: the services. He served our nation. And yet we've got people,
23:02
Speaker 6: even though he served our nation, saying, oh, no, now
23:04
Speaker 6: I'm going to belt you on the head again.
23:06
Speaker 2: I guess the question that people have, Barnaby, and I'll
23:09
Speaker 2: finish with this, is are you absolutely confident there's nothing
23:13
Speaker 2: more to come out and Warren Pickering can get on
23:15
Speaker 2: with fighting the Victorian election, or are you worried there
23:18
Speaker 2: might be more?
23:20
Speaker 6: I'm not worried. I'm not worried. I'm confident. But, you know,
23:24
Speaker 6: this idea to say, do you have, you know, 100%
23:28
Speaker 6: knowledge of every aspect of everything that ever happened?
23:30
Speaker 4: Well, no, no, you haven't.
23:33
Speaker 6: No, I'm not.
23:33
Speaker 4: I'm not a... I'm not a.
23:36
Speaker 6: divine being i've already told people this week i'm not
23:38
Speaker 6: jesus christ and i keep bringing it up to me
23:40
Speaker 6: as if they're concerned i might be but he um
23:42
Speaker 6: but you know i i i'm confident i've heard him
23:47
Speaker 6: and and that's you know what you can do he's
23:49
Speaker 6: i know the guy he's a good guy he's a
23:51
Speaker 6: very he's when i meet him i i find a
23:54
Speaker 6: guy who's pretty serious about life and he wants to
23:56
Speaker 6: do a really serious job and i think To be
23:58
Speaker 6: quite frank, out there in the marketplace, I think people
24:01
Speaker 6: will be vastly more forgiving than the sort of hyperbole
24:04
Speaker 6: that's surrounding him in the media. Like a lot of
24:07
Speaker 6: these things this week get really, really heated. And if
24:10
Speaker 6: you sit back for them for a while and let
24:12
Speaker 6: them cool down, more sense and process comes into play
24:17
Speaker 6: and the greater picture becomes apparent.
24:21
Speaker 1: Barnaby Joyce, I appreciate you joining me tonight. Thanks so much.
24:24
Speaker 6: Always a pleasure.
24:27
Speaker 2: Well, coming up after the break, the legal fight between
24:29
Speaker 2: a breastfeeding expert and a transgender woman who breastfed her
24:32
Speaker 2: son is heating up. One of the lawyers on the
24:35
Speaker 2: case will join me after this. Well, now to a
24:42
Speaker 2: stunning development in the case of a breastfeeding expert who
24:45
Speaker 2: was sued by a transgender woman, that is a biological
24:49
Speaker 2: man who identifies as female, for comments condemning transgender breastfeeding
24:55
Speaker 2: as experimental and and a dangerous fetish. The breastfeeding expert
25:00
Speaker 2: Jasmine Sussex also referred to the trans woman as a
25:03
Speaker 2: man pretending to be a woman and someone who had
25:06
Speaker 2: adopted a delusional queer theory take on breastfeeding. The Queensland
25:11
Speaker 2: Civil and Administrative Appeals Tribunal has ordered the trans woman,
25:15
Speaker 2: Jennifer Buckley, to produce details of the composition of the
25:19
Speaker 2: substance she was feeding the baby, of which she is
25:22
Speaker 2: the biological father. Buckley also has been ordered to provide
25:26
Speaker 2: details of any hormones used to induce lactation. Joining me
25:30
Speaker 2: now is John Steenhoff, the principal lawyer at the Human
25:33
Speaker 2: Rights Law Alliance, which has been helping Ms Sussex defend
25:37
Speaker 2: her case. John, thanks for talking to me tonight. Your
25:40
Speaker 2: client is accused of vilifying Jennifer Buckley. Why is the
25:44
Speaker 2: information being sought by the court or the tribunal so
25:48
Speaker 2: important to your client's defence?
25:52
Speaker 4: Good evening, James. Great to be with you. This is
25:55
Speaker 4: a serious case.
25:57
Speaker 10: It's a suburban Melbourne mother who's being brought before a
26:02
Speaker 10: Queensland tribunal accused of hate speech. It's asserted that she
26:09
Speaker 10: has incited hatred by criticising a biological.
26:12
Speaker 4: Man who claims to have lactated.
26:15
Speaker 10: Her only defence in this case, apart from justifying her words,
26:20
Speaker 10: is to say that she is engaged in a matter
26:24
Speaker 10: of public interest. And so when faced with a complainant
26:28
Speaker 10: who says, I was able to induce lactation under medical supervision,
26:33
Speaker 10: Jasmine Sussex has just asked, where's the evidence?
26:37
Speaker 4: Where is the evidence that.
26:39
Speaker 10: This is a legitimate medical procedure? Because we've put on
26:43
Speaker 10: evidence that says it's not. And so now the court
26:46
Speaker 10: has confirmed that this is relevant to the claim and
26:50
Speaker 10: to her defence of this hate speech claim.
26:54
Speaker 2: Now, you've had to fight for that ruling because a
26:56
Speaker 2: previous QCAT ruling had denied your client this information. Why
27:00
Speaker 2: the change from the tribunal saying, OK, now this information
27:03
Speaker 2: is important and is valid?
27:07
Speaker 10: It shows how long these processes can take, James. Originally,
27:11
Speaker 10: you ask for the information from the complainant. They've made
27:16
Speaker 10: a statement that this is what happened and you're entitled
27:19
Speaker 10: to be given relevant information from them. They refused, so
27:23
Speaker 10: we asked the tribunal to provide that information, saying that
27:28
Speaker 10: it was relevant to Jasmine's defence. The original decision by
27:31
Speaker 10: a member of the tribunal refused the application. was also
27:37
Speaker 10: very critical of Jasmine's motivations in asking for the information
27:42
Speaker 10: and said it's simply not relevant to whether what she
27:45
Speaker 10: said was hateful or not. The Appeals Tribunal has looked
27:50
Speaker 10: at it and said, no, it's not just about what
27:52
Speaker 10: she said being hateful. It's also about whether she has
27:57
Speaker 10: an exemption because she was talking about an issue in
28:00
Speaker 10: the public interest. And this is about children. This is
28:04
Speaker 10: about medicine, about public policy. It certainly is something where
28:08
Speaker 10: we think there is a significant public interest and this
28:12
Speaker 10: medical information is important.
28:14
Speaker 2: Well, indeed, I was going to say, obviously, this information
28:17
Speaker 2: is being sought in your client's defence. So it's important there.
28:21
Speaker 2: But is it also likely to have implications for other
28:24
Speaker 2: trans women who want to breastfeed babies?
28:29
Speaker 10: James, this case is mostly about freedom of speech. It's
28:33
Speaker 10: unlikely that the result of this case is going to
28:37
Speaker 10: mean anything in terms of medical regulation one way or another.
28:42
Speaker 10: for men, biological men who want to induce lactation. However,
28:47
Speaker 10: it is going to shine a spotlight in the case
28:51
Speaker 10: on the medical basis and the foundation for engaging in
28:54
Speaker 10: these practices. And if one wants to engage on these issues,
28:58
Speaker 10: the key issue is being able to talk about it
29:02
Speaker 10: and not being censored and not being silenced.
29:05
Speaker 4: And that's what Jasmine wants from this case.
29:08
Speaker 2: Well, just on that, I mean, our parents wouldn't have
29:11
Speaker 2: thought twice about mocking the idea that a man who
29:15
Speaker 2: identifies as a woman can or should breastfeed a newborn.
29:19
Speaker 2: As the law stands today, how dangerous is it to
29:23
Speaker 2: speak out against things like this?
29:28
Speaker 10: It's very dangerous to talk about these things, James. Australians
29:35
Speaker 10: more and more are being censored for talking about contentious
29:39
Speaker 10: issues in public trying to speak the truth in the public.
29:42
Speaker 4: Square on these issues.
29:45
Speaker 10: Human Rights Law Alliance stands alongside clients like Jasmine against
29:50
Speaker 10: very well-resourced complainants who try to use the law to silence.
29:55
Speaker 4: Their opinions on these matters. In this matter, we're being.
29:58
Speaker 10: Ably assisted by a very capable KC, Toni Morris KC,
30:03
Speaker 10: one of Queensland's leading barristers. And that allows us to
30:06
Speaker 10: go toe to toe and put on a good case
30:10
Speaker 10: to defend her freedom of speech.
30:12
Speaker 4: But Jasmine is not alone.
30:14
Speaker 10: We've seen cases like Kirley Smith and Sal Grover, who
30:17
Speaker 10: have been trying to fight for the right to say
30:20
Speaker 10: that a man is not a woman.
30:22
Speaker 6: Yeah.
30:23
Speaker 10: And we have many examples of people we've stood alongside
30:26
Speaker 10: who've been disciplined for trying to speak truth. Most recently,
30:31
Speaker 10: our settlement for Dr Gillian Spencer in Queensland, who stood
30:35
Speaker 10: up against the practices of the gender clinic. This is
30:38
Speaker 10: happening more and more to everyday Australians.
30:42
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of people very interested in this
30:44
Speaker 2: particular case. John Steenhoff, I appreciate you talking to me
30:47
Speaker 2: about it this evening. All right, stick around after the break.
30:51
Speaker 2: Grace Tame backtracks after dismissing the rape of Israeli women
30:55
Speaker 2: on October 7 as propaganda. And ex-Victorian Liberal MP Moira
30:59
Speaker 2: Deeming announces her next move.
31:01
Speaker 1: My panel, join me after this.
31:08
Speaker 2: Well, former Australian of the Year Grace Tame has sought
31:10
Speaker 2: to clarify comments she made back in March when she
31:13
Speaker 2: described the rape of Israeli women on October 7 as propaganda.
31:18
Speaker 2: Here's some of what Grace Tame posted on Instagram today.
31:22
Speaker 11: There's something I've wanted to clarify for a while, which
31:25
Speaker 11: I regret not clarifying sooner. I stand with survivors of
31:30
Speaker 11: sexual violence everywhere, no matter who they are. Comments I
31:35
Speaker 11: made on ABC Radio in March this year were misinterpreted
31:40
Speaker 11: to mean that I disbelieve Israeli survivors of sexual violence.
31:45
Speaker 11: This is not the case. I always have and always
31:48
Speaker 11: will stand with survivors of sexual violence.
31:53
Speaker 2: Well, here's what Grace Tame said on ABC Radio back
31:56
Speaker 2: in March when asked why, as a women's advocate, she
31:59
Speaker 2: hadn't spoken out on behalf of Israeli women who were
32:02
Speaker 2: raped and killed by Hamas. And you tell me if
32:05
Speaker 2: you think she's been misinterpreted.
32:07
Speaker 4: Have you spoken about that? Have you expressed outrage about that?
32:11
Speaker 10: I'm not going to sink to the level of entertaining
32:14
Speaker 10: any kind of propaganda, Hamish.
32:17
Speaker 4: What's the propaganda included in that question? Those things have
32:21
Speaker 4: been debunked.
32:23
Speaker 2: Joining me now is my panel, former Federal Nationals Minister
32:26
Speaker 2: and Bondi Partners Senior Advisor Peter McGoran. and communications consultant
32:30
Speaker 2: Christy McSweeney, who's worked for Coalition Prime Ministers and Premiers. Christy,
32:35
Speaker 2: I'll start with you. Could Grace Tame's comments in March
32:38
Speaker 2: have been misinterpreted?
32:42
Speaker 9: I don't think that there is any scope for her
32:45
Speaker 9: comments to have been misinterpreted. I think she was very
32:48
Speaker 9: clear that... I think she knew exactly what she was saying.
32:52
Speaker 9: And six months later, a clarification, which I can only
32:58
Speaker 9: assume has come after several complaints to the ABC, several
33:02
Speaker 9: complaints to the Ombudsman, and a little bit of a
33:05
Speaker 9: scuffle about what's going on lately at the ABC with
33:09
Speaker 9: a few decisions that they've made. Look, words that you
33:13
Speaker 9: say on television, and we all know it, and words
33:16
Speaker 9: when you have a public voice, what you say has
33:18
Speaker 9: an impact. You have to be very careful that you're
33:22
Speaker 9: using facts and that you're speaking with a conviction, no
33:29
Speaker 9: matter what you believe. But, you know, I believe everyone
33:32
Speaker 9: has a responsibility to speak objectively.
33:36
Speaker 12: She didn't.
33:36
Speaker 9: It's taken her six months to clarify that, particularly as
33:40
Speaker 9: she is a significant advocate of sorts for women who
33:44
Speaker 9: have endured sexual abuse.
33:46
Speaker 2: Well, Grace Tame also said this today.
33:49
Speaker 1: Have a listen.
33:50
Speaker 11: I do not hate Israelis. I do not hate Jewish people.
33:55
Speaker 11: I abhor the crimes of the state of Israel.
33:59
Speaker 2: Well, you can certainly dislike a country's government without hating
34:03
Speaker 2: its people.
34:04
Speaker 1: That's true. But how do you square that with this?
34:08
Speaker 3: Gadigal to Gaza.
34:10
Speaker 1: Globalise the intifada.
34:12
Speaker 13: One more time.
34:13
Speaker 4: From Gadigal to Gaza.
34:15
Speaker 13: Globalise the intifada.
34:18
Speaker 2: Peter, do those two things go together or is that
34:21
Speaker 2: another misinterpretation, do you think?
34:24
Speaker 12: Yes, a misrepresentation, misinterpretation. It's everybody's fault except Grace's. And
34:29
Speaker 12: we can speculate as to why she's making the apology.
34:32
Speaker 12: And I invite viewers to see it from beginning to
34:36
Speaker 12: end and form their own position on the issue. She's very,
34:42
Speaker 12: very restricted in the apology. Some will believe it's merely mouthed.
34:47
Speaker 12: It's unconvincing. Six months later, it's everybody's fault, it seems,
34:52
Speaker 12: for misunderstanding her. Look, she's a paid up member of
34:56
Speaker 12: the river to the sea crowd. There's nothing in her
34:59
Speaker 12: apology that will in any way cause her discomfort with
35:03
Speaker 12: her free Palestine movement.
35:07
Speaker 6: Friends.
35:07
Speaker 12: And so I'm sorry. It's not an apology directed at
35:12
Speaker 12: me or to you, James. It's really for the victims
35:16
Speaker 12: of the rape. And she denies it's systemic to really
35:21
Speaker 12: judge it for its level of sincerity. But I wish
35:24
Speaker 12: she'd make herself available for questioning as to why come
35:28
Speaker 12: six months later and why She's apologising for the misrepresentation
35:33
Speaker 12: and misinterpretation of her original comments that are very plain
35:40
Speaker 12: and leave little or no scope for misinterpretation.
35:44
Speaker 2: Well, ex-Victorian Liberal Moira Deeming has announced her next move.
35:49
Speaker 2: Deeming resigned from the party in July after being disendorsed,
35:52
Speaker 2: but announced today she was becoming the leader of Family
35:55
Speaker 2: First in Victoria.
35:57
Speaker 1: Here she was.
35:58
Speaker 14: So I just really want to fight for the families
36:00
Speaker 14: in the West and for the things that I've always
36:02
Speaker 14: fought for. And I'm just going to continue to do that.
36:05
Speaker 2: Moira Deeming said she'd been courted by a number of
36:08
Speaker 2: other parties before deciding to join Family First.
36:12
Speaker 14: A lot of parties invited me and it was just
36:15
Speaker 14: so kind of them all. And a lot of people
36:18
Speaker 14: have supported me from, like, honestly, across the political spectrum.
36:24
Speaker 2: Christy, deeming promises to fight for family values, can you
36:27
Speaker 2: see her attracting disaffected Liberal voters?
36:31
Speaker 9: I think she's genuine in saying that she wants to
36:34
Speaker 9: continue fighting for the issues that she's fought for. I
36:37
Speaker 9: will say that this huge kind of talk around her
36:43
Speaker 9: potentially joining One Nation and Pauline Hanson wanting to go
36:46
Speaker 9: and court her, if any journalist knew anything about One Nation,
36:50
Speaker 9: they would know that a significant element and a long-term
36:53
Speaker 9: element of One Nation's base is men who believe that
36:58
Speaker 9: women go to the family court and lie and embellish
37:01
Speaker 9: claims to make men look bad and and that men
37:06
Speaker 9: have somehow victims in the family court system. One of
37:10
Speaker 9: the only pieces of legislation or committees or political issues
37:15
Speaker 9: that Senator Hanson and One Nation has actually pursued through
37:18
Speaker 9: the parliament is the family court inquiry. Now, there is
37:22
Speaker 9: people with legitimate claims of that, but I think after
37:26
Speaker 9: the issue around the accusations towards Matthew Guy of assault
37:31
Speaker 9: that turned out to perhaps... be misinterpreted at best or
37:36
Speaker 9: at worst, you know, not true. I don't think there
37:39
Speaker 9: was ever any possibility that One Nation would have her
37:44
Speaker 9: as a candidate, particularly based on their long-term base of
37:51
Speaker 9: men who believe that women who do that are, you know,
37:55
Speaker 9: not fit to run for parliament.
37:58
Speaker 1: As for Family First... I don't know. You know, they
38:01
Speaker 1: fight for what.
38:02
Speaker 9: They believe in. And, you know, I applaud any MPs
38:05
Speaker 9: who stand up and run for parliament and fight for difficult,
38:08
Speaker 9: controversial issues that, you know, good on her. She's fighting
38:12
Speaker 9: her corner.
38:13
Speaker 4: We'll see how she goes.
38:14
Speaker 2: Very quickly, Peter, disastrous news for people who've bought homes recently.
38:18
Speaker 2: New analysis reveals one in three homes bought in the
38:21
Speaker 2: past 12 months would sell for less today. Recent home
38:25
Speaker 2: buyers in Sydney and Melbourne have been hit with the
38:29
Speaker 2: biggest losses since the downturn began, with just over 50%
38:32
Speaker 2: of homes purchased in the past 12 months now worth less.
38:37
Speaker 2: The irony, of course, is news like this would have
38:40
Speaker 2: the exact opposite effect the government wants. It would make
38:43
Speaker 2: people even more reluctant to buy a property, Peter.
38:45
Speaker 4: Yep, agreed, James.
38:47
Speaker 1: And it's going to get worse.
38:48
Speaker 12: The Commonwealth's come out and said that house prices will
38:50
Speaker 12: fall by up to 10% in all capital cities, and
38:54
Speaker 12: we're about to get an interest rate increase. Inflation, core
38:58
Speaker 12: inflation stuck at 3.6, with the risk of going up.
39:01
Speaker 12: On the 29th of September, we're going to get another
39:03
Speaker 12: 25 points... increase, taking the interest rate to 4.6 percent.
39:09
Speaker 12: And there'll be one not long after to follow, getting
39:12
Speaker 12: towards 5 percent interest rates. No, there's a lot of
39:15
Speaker 12: stress and uncertainty ahead, particularly for first home buyers. And
39:20
Speaker 12: the government's not doing anything. It's their spending that's fuelling
39:25
Speaker 12: inflation above all other impacts and influences. And the government
39:29
Speaker 12: seems unable to grasp the severity of the situation.
39:34
Speaker 4: Yep.
39:34
Speaker 2: There'll be a lot of very nervous homeowners at the moment.
39:38
Speaker 2: Peter McGoran and Christy McSweeney. I appreciate both of you
39:41
Speaker 2: coming on the program.
39:42
Speaker 1: Thanks so much.
39:42
Speaker 4: Thank you.
39:43
Speaker 2: All right, before we go to the break, on Tuesday's program,
39:47
Speaker 2: I ran a clip of a satirical news report about
39:51
Speaker 2: an AFL fan quitting Twitter, which I incorrectly attributed to
39:55
Speaker 2: Seven News. This was not a genuine news report and
39:59
Speaker 2: I apologise for the error. All right, coming up after
40:03
Speaker 2: the break, we'll go to Patrick Christie's in the UK,
40:06
Speaker 2: where the fallout over British sanctions on Israeli settlements continues
40:09
Speaker 2: to grow. And Harry and Meghan's terse response to the
40:12
Speaker 2: King's reminder they're no longer royals.
40:15
Speaker 1: That's next. Welcome back to the program.
40:21
Speaker 2: Israel has unleashed fury on the UK after it placed
40:25
Speaker 2: blanket sanctions on settlements in the West Bank, accusing Israel's
40:29
Speaker 2: government of ignoring alleged ethnic cleansing of Palestinians perpetrated by
40:34
Speaker 2: what it calls terrorist settlers and of harming the prospects
40:38
Speaker 2: of a two-state solution. Here was UK Foreign Secretary Ed
40:43
Speaker 2: Miliband addressing the Parliament.
40:46
Speaker 13: The British government agrees that there is ethnic cleansing of
40:49
Speaker 13: Palestinians in areas of the West Bank, perpetrated by settler terrorists.
40:54
Speaker 13: And all too often, the Israeli government has turned a
40:56
Speaker 13: blind eye to this, and worse, members of it have
41:00
Speaker 13: made statements and taken actions to support the forced displacement
41:03
Speaker 13: of Palestinians So.
41:06
Speaker 2: In response to that, the Middle East's only democracy has
41:08
Speaker 2: shut down the British consulate in Jerusalem and banned 11
41:13
Speaker 2: British MPs, including Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott and all five
41:16
Speaker 2: sitting Green Party MPs from entering Israel, citing alleged anti-Semitic
41:22
Speaker 2: and anti-Israel activity. Joining me now from London is Star
41:27
Speaker 2: GB News host Patrick Christies. Patrick, what's behind this move
41:30
Speaker 2: from the Labor government and what does it mean for
41:33
Speaker 2: the relationship between Israel and the UK?
41:37
Speaker 15: Well, Ed Miliband has been described as being like Wallace
41:40
Speaker 15: without the grommets previously, and I'm inclined to believe that.
41:44
Speaker 15: It is a catastrophic mistake. You just rattled off some
41:46
Speaker 15: of the different things that Israel has done by way
41:48
Speaker 15: of retaliation. I think the biggest one, though, is something
41:50
Speaker 15: that we won't really know about until it potentially goes very,
41:53
Speaker 15: very wrong, which is, is Israel going to continue to
41:56
Speaker 15: share high-level assets? counter-terrorism intelligence with the UK. We have
42:00
Speaker 15: had several late-stage terror attacks foiled in this country, probably
42:05
Speaker 15: just a mile or so from where I'm sitting talking
42:07
Speaker 15: to you now, as a direct result of the Israelis
42:10
Speaker 15: sharing their intelligence with us, especially about Iranian terrorist sleeper cells.
42:14
Speaker 15: Are they going to continue to do that? Or are
42:16
Speaker 15: we going to be fending for ourselves now? And that
42:18
Speaker 15: puts the wider British public at risk. Ed Miliband said, oh,
42:22
Speaker 15: it's all about a two-state solution. That's the thing. Well,
42:24
Speaker 15: it can't be really, can it? Because when you go
42:26
Speaker 15: out on the streets, the pro-Palestine protests, You hear them
42:29
Speaker 15: literally chanting things like from the river to the sea,
42:32
Speaker 15: which sounds a bit one state to me. And also
42:35
Speaker 15: things like we don't want no two states. Israel is
42:37
Speaker 15: a terror state. So, again, I don't really think it's
42:40
Speaker 15: going to go down particularly well with some of the
42:42
Speaker 15: more radical people that are out on the streets.
42:44
Speaker 1: He said it was about morals.
42:45
Speaker 15: Well, where are his morals when it comes to people
42:47
Speaker 15: like China, the Chinese government and the Uyghur Muslims? Really,
42:51
Speaker 15: what's behind this, I suspect is. is demographics, rapidly growing
42:55
Speaker 15: Muslim populations, not just in Britain, but around a lot
42:58
Speaker 15: of those other countries that signed up to this as well.
43:00
Speaker 15: Is that helping to shape politics and foreign policy? a
43:03
Speaker 15: cave into the hard left, and they've got a by-election
43:06
Speaker 15: coming up in a place called Holborn and St Pancras,
43:09
Speaker 15: which is Keir Starmer's old seat. Labour has now selected
43:12
Speaker 15: a Somali refugee to stand as their candidate there and
43:16
Speaker 15: essentially been accused by Israel anyway of just appeasing Hamas,
43:20
Speaker 15: which is quite a good way of trying to prevent
43:23
Speaker 15: the Greens from winning that seat. So I suspect there's
43:26
Speaker 15: a lot more domestic politics at play here than actually
43:29
Speaker 15: international relations.
43:31
Speaker 2: I said in the introduction there's been a number of
43:33
Speaker 2: MPs who are now banned from entering Israel, Jeremy Corbyn
43:36
Speaker 2: for one.
43:38
Speaker 1: But I was.
43:38
Speaker 2: Interested that all Greens MPs in the parliament, as I said,
43:42
Speaker 2: have been banned. What does that say about the way
43:45
Speaker 2: Israel views the Greens party as a whole?
43:48
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
43:49
Speaker 15: I mean, look, absolutely. And there is a really interesting
43:53
Speaker 15: dynamic here because both the Green Party and Ed Miliband.
43:57
Speaker 15: So the Green Party are led by a guy called
43:59
Speaker 15: Zach Polanski, who is what you might describe as being,
44:02
Speaker 15: I suppose, of Jewish heritage, got Jewish relatives. And Ed
44:05
Speaker 15: Miliband's a very similar person here. And they've been facing
44:08
Speaker 15: a bit of criticism lately. from a lot of members
44:11
Speaker 15: of the Jewish community, including the chief rabbi, who is saying, look,
44:15
Speaker 15: you're inviting anti-Semitism on here with your use of language.
44:19
Speaker 15: And Ed Miliband's clapped back and said, look, he's a
44:22
Speaker 15: proud British Jew. And then it's created a little bit
44:25
Speaker 15: of a war kind of amongst the Jewish community here,
44:27
Speaker 15: because some people are saying, well, you don't really practice.
44:29
Speaker 15: You've been pictured eating a bacon sandwich. And your father
44:32
Speaker 15: was a notable Marxist professor who's buried 12 yards away
44:35
Speaker 15: from Karl Marx's tomb in London, not in a Jewish cemetery.
44:39
Speaker 15: There's an accusation here, I suppose, that some of these
44:41
Speaker 15: political figures are trying to use their Jewish faith to
44:44
Speaker 15: maybe mask the fact that some of their decisions and
44:46
Speaker 15: some of their policies could lead to increased levels of
44:50
Speaker 15: anti-Semitism here in this country. But in terms of the Greens,
44:53
Speaker 15: I mean, specifically, you know, Israel will think that they're
44:55
Speaker 15: actively dangerous. But, I mean, a lot of people here do.
44:58
Speaker 1: I do.
44:59
Speaker 15: Not just because of their foreign policy. but they do
45:01
Speaker 15: also want to legalise hard drugs. And there's even talk
45:04
Speaker 15: now that they might want to make school optional for
45:06
Speaker 15: children until the age of seven. That policy, I can
45:09
Speaker 15: only assume, was drawn up by a six-year-old.
45:13
Speaker 2: I know a lot of six-year-olds that would probably vote
45:15
Speaker 2: for that, which is why we should not lower the
45:17
Speaker 2: voting age. Before I let you go, Harry and Meghan
45:20
Speaker 2: have issued a terse response to a letter from King
45:23
Speaker 2: Charles who advised they would no longer have any official
45:27
Speaker 2: role as royals. Meghan and Harry claim they've been blindsided
45:32
Speaker 2: by the King's letter.
45:33
Speaker 1: How is that possible?
45:37
Speaker 15: Well, I suppose if you don't talk to anyone, then
45:39
Speaker 15: it's easy to be blindsided by everything, isn't it, really? But, no,
45:42
Speaker 15: I mean, yeah, the King released a really strong statement
45:44
Speaker 15: saying that Harry and Meghan are not actually working members
45:46
Speaker 15: of the royal family. They're not proper members of the
45:48
Speaker 15: royal family. They are just private citizens and they should
45:51
Speaker 15: be treated as such. And I think the reality is
45:53
Speaker 15: it's because they were clearly still planning on dining out
45:56
Speaker 15: on the royal titles for work here in the UK.
45:59
Speaker 15: And the timing of this was fascinating because Prince Harry
46:02
Speaker 15: posted a picture of himself in a podcast studio... And
46:06
Speaker 15: that podcast is a studio of a very big podcast
46:09
Speaker 15: that is over here called The Diary of a CEO,
46:11
Speaker 15: which is on YouTube. And I wonder whether or not
46:15
Speaker 15: he started to do these things. And people have started
46:18
Speaker 15: going to the palace for rights of reply on various
46:21
Speaker 15: different things before they publish it. And the king has
46:23
Speaker 15: just decided to go, you know what? Here's one right
46:26
Speaker 15: of reply. I'm basically telling them to jog on. and
46:28
Speaker 15: you've not really interviewed a proper royal here. The hilarious
46:31
Speaker 15: thing that's happened recently, though, is that the Ugandan military
46:35
Speaker 15: leader has pulled out, has pulled Ugandans out of the
46:38
Speaker 15: Invictus Games, that Veterans Games thing, and he cited the
46:42
Speaker 15: Harry and Meghan nonsense as the approach for it, which
46:45
Speaker 15: is quite funny if you think about it, because now
46:47
Speaker 15: a Ugandan thinks that he's been pranked by someone who's
46:49
Speaker 15: pretending to be a member of the British royal family,
46:52
Speaker 15: whereas usually that tends to be the other way around.
46:54
Speaker 14: But.
46:55
Speaker 15: Yes, this is not a good look for Harry and
46:57
Speaker 15: Meghan and ultimately, you know, their life has not gone
47:00
Speaker 15: off to a particularly smooth start back here in Britain.
47:04
Speaker 2: We've got about a minute left, Patrick, but one of
47:05
Speaker 2: the things I was curious about was apparently Harry and
47:09
Speaker 2: Meghan took issue with the King's letter referring to them
47:12
Speaker 2: as private citizens.
47:14
Speaker 1: They would prefer to be called public figures. Well, quite, yeah.
47:19
Speaker 15: I mean, that's got Netflix written all over it, hasn't it, really?
47:22
Speaker 15: We are a public figure, not a private citizen. Very
47:24
Speaker 15: hard to monetise your jam if you are literally just
47:28
Speaker 15: Meghan and not Meghan, Duchess of Sussex.
47:31
Speaker 1: So there is that.
47:32
Speaker 15: But they also, the arrogance, they wanted to try to
47:35
Speaker 15: script this King's statement... with the king. They are angry
47:40
Speaker 15: that they weren't given advanced sight of this and the
47:42
Speaker 15: ability to change it at their discretion. I mean, I
47:45
Speaker 15: don't know who they think, well, I do know who
47:46
Speaker 15: they think they are. They obviously think they are more
47:49
Speaker 15: serious members of the royal family. But sadly, they're not anymore.
47:52
Speaker 15: And there is just this relentless arrogance. And yeah, they're
47:55
Speaker 15: going to have to wake up to that very soon,
47:57
Speaker 15: I think.
47:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's ever the victim.
48:00
Speaker 2: Just very quickly, how does this scuffle affect the relationship
48:04
Speaker 2: with the king?
48:05
Speaker 1: I was hoping they might have reconciled. This doesn't seem
48:07
Speaker 1: to help. We've had mixed reports.
48:09
Speaker 15: A newspaper front page yesterday said that they had not spoken.
48:13
Speaker 15: Harry and the King had not spoken since they arrived
48:15
Speaker 15: back in the UK. And then there was a big
48:17
Speaker 15: front page this morning here in Britain to say that actually, ha,
48:20
Speaker 15: they have spoken. But it appears it might have just
48:23
Speaker 15: been one phone call. The thing with that is it
48:25
Speaker 15: kind of blows the lid off the idea that the
48:27
Speaker 15: real reason that Harry came back was because he wanted
48:29
Speaker 15: to be as close to his dad as possible.
48:30
Speaker 1: Absolutely. You have got it in one, I reckon. Bingo.
48:34
Speaker 2: Patrick, always love catching up. Thanks so much for joining me.
48:38
Speaker 2: That's all I've got time for tonight.
48:40
Speaker 4: Stick around.
48:40
Speaker 1: Up next is Shari, hosted by Steve Price.