Latest / The Animal Advocate / When Advocacy Brings Backlash: Dr. Crystal Heath on Standing Strong

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When Advocacy Brings Backlash: Dr. Crystal Heath on Standing Strong · The Animal Advocate

0:00
Welcome back to the Animal Advocate. Thanks for joining us.
0:03
So we've been covering lots of companion animal issues and
0:07
working through some bills that I'm excited about getting our community
0:11
behind, like allowing veterinarians to expand
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services by permitting them to see new patients virtually
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and requiring local governments to provide animal control services
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for the good of both the animals and the people in the community.
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This week, we're taking a bit of a different turn. We're talking
0:31
with Dr. Crystal Heath. Dr. Heath is a shelter
0:34
veterinarian, animal welfare advocate, and the founder
0:38
of Our Honor, a nonprofit working to expose and
0:42
end systemic harms in animal care systems.
0:45
She's known for speaking out against unethical practices
0:49
and advocating for transparency, equity, and
0:53
compassion in animal services.
0:59
Welcome to the Animal Advocate, where we arm animal
1:02
lovers with the information and inspiration you need to become
1:06
effective advocates. I'm your host, Penny Ellison,
1:09
and I've taught animal law and advocacy at the University of Pennsylvania
1:13
since 2006. If you've ever thought
1:17
someone should do something about that, I'm here to guide you
1:21
on your journey to being that someone. You can
1:25
find us on the web@animaladvocacyacademy.com
1:29
and that's where you'll find show notes and resources, and you can
1:33
send us your comments on episodes and ideas for topics you'd like to
1:36
hear on future shows. So on to today's
1:40
topic.
1:47
With a background in both veterinary medicine and public policy,
1:51
Dr. Heath brings a unique perspective to some of the toughest issues
1:55
facing animals today. I originally reached out to her
1:59
because she was speaking out on an important issue that was happening at the federal
2:03
level. We haven't talked much about farm animal
2:06
protections, but if we did, you'd find out that there are basically
2:10
none. So some states have started to pass
2:13
basic animal welfare laws and saying that meat that comes
2:17
from animals that have been subjected to the worst forms of intense
2:21
confinement, like gestation crates for pigs
2:24
that don't give sows even enough room to take a step or turn around.
2:29
That meat that comes from animals that were treated like that can't be
2:32
sold in the state. California and Massachusetts have
2:36
both passed laws like that. In something of a
2:40
surprise, the Supreme Court actually upheld California's law,
2:44
saying they have a right to regulate what gets sold to their citizens.
2:49
So industry lobbyists have pushed for a bill in Congress that
2:53
would strike down any state laws that put any protection
2:56
whatsoever in place for animals that are raised
3:00
for meat or eggs or other animal products.
3:04
So that's where Crystal and I started. But it's not really where we
3:08
ended up. We covered lots of topics. Her
3:12
day job is working for nonprofits providing high quality, high
3:16
volume spay neuter services. But in her off hours,
3:19
she's an activist and advocate for animals on all kinds of issues.
3:24
In our talk, she discusses how in vet school she was
3:28
taught to fear any legal push to give animals rights
3:32
because it was a threat to the profession and they told her it would
3:35
drive up the costs of veterinary care. When we talk about farm
3:39
animals, she describes how animal production methods have changed
3:43
because of the huge quantities that we now need to produce for meat.
3:47
She's fought against some of what she sees are the worst abuses. For
3:51
example, a practice known as ventilation shutdown, a
3:54
controversial means of quote, unquote, euthanizing
3:58
poultry and pigs. When slaughterhouses
4:02
were shut down. It involves basically cooking them alive in
4:06
barns that are pumped full of heat. Maybe most
4:10
importantly, she's going to talk about the way she was attacked
4:14
from both inside and outside the veterinary profession.
4:17
And I think that's important to hear because if you're going to become an
4:21
advocate for animals, you're going to face a lot of criticism and
4:25
you're going to have to think in advance about how to handle that.
4:28
Dr. Heath gets really candid about the criticism and retaliation
4:32
she faced for speaking up for animals. This is
4:35
probably more common when you speak up for farm animals because there's so much money
4:39
involved. But anybody who advocates for animals is
4:43
likely to hear at one time or another that you care more about animals than
4:47
you care about people, and you should get your priorities straight.
4:51
So expecting that will happen and preparing how you'll respond
4:55
both internally and to your critics is an
4:59
important part of becoming an effective advocate. So I hope you
5:02
enjoy this far ranging interview with a veterinarian on the front
5:06
lines of animal advocacy. Welcome, Crystal Heath. I'm
5:10
so happy to have you. Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be
5:14
here. So we have a lot to talk about. Because you are
5:17
involved in some of the issues that I've been talking about recently on the
5:21
podcast, including access to veterinary services,
5:25
subsidized spay neuter services, and you're also involved
5:28
in some farm animal issues that I also want to spend some time on because
5:32
it's very important. I'm interested in the path to how you became
5:36
sort of a veterinary activist, I will call it. I teach at a university that
5:39
has a law school and a vet school. And it's not been my experience
5:44
that the vet students are activists in the way that
5:47
you are. They go into that big financial and time commitment of vet school,
5:51
caring about animals. But, you know, by and large, they care about
5:55
them as part of and accepting the conventional system of
5:58
how we use animals. And they don't challenge those
6:02
paradigms. How did you find yourself going down a different path?
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Absolutely. Well, I've always been a lifelong animal lover and grew up
6:10
in, you know, rural Northern California and was in 4h,
6:14
but always was questioning things. I saw my neighbors raise
6:17
pigs and sheep and cows for the county fair.
6:21
I even debated going that path and raising a
6:25
pig and getting the money. But then I'm like, I really, I don't think I
6:28
can do that. Got my hands on some PETA material quite young
6:32
and understood the environmental impacts of
6:36
animal production and just the moral impacts.
6:39
Like, I loved animals. They are my best friends. Why, why should
6:43
they be sold as profit for some corporation?
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And so I went on this path and eventually ended up
6:51
going to veterinary school. In veterinary school, I was a
6:54
vegetarian, but in my class, about 25% of us were
6:58
vegetarians and there were a couple of vegans. But I learned in
7:02
veterinary school there was just this negative
7:05
view of groups like PETA and animal rights in general. And
7:09
we got whole classes on how the
7:13
animal rights lawyers were a threat to our profession,
7:16
that they were trying to sue us. And if animals gained
7:20
the ability to be considered people, our clients could
7:24
sue us for lack of companionship. That would just lead to
7:28
increase cost of veterinary care because we would be practicing
7:32
cover your ass medicine and our malpractice insurance would
7:35
go up, and that would mean the cost of veterinary care would go up and
7:38
all of these, these negative externalities associated with
7:42
giving animals rights. But at the same time, I saw,
7:46
while there was growing awareness of animal welfare and
7:50
animal welfare was becoming more professionalized, things were
7:54
getting a lot worse for animals. Things like
7:57
ventilation shutdown, where they seal up buildings, pump in heat, and wait for the
8:01
animals inside to die as a response to emergencies
8:05
and infectious disease outbreaks. These methods of depopulation
8:09
of animals, because we've never combined this many animals
8:13
before in history. Up until 70 or so years
8:17
ago. People say, you know, we always have eaten animals, and
8:21
we may have, but not in the production volume that we do now. And
8:24
they're facing those kind of issues that you're talking about. Ventilation shutdown?
8:28
Absolutely. And I. So I'm weighing these two things. What I'm hearing in the veterinary
8:32
profession with what I'm hearing in the animal advocacy movement.
8:36
And I'm. I'm seeing the problems with how animal advocates communicate
8:40
about these things, how they don't always get the facts right and how the veterinary
8:43
profession takes advantage of the fact that animal rights activists don't get the
8:47
facts right because they don't know. And so in here I'm trying to
8:51
get the facts right and also communicate to my
8:54
colleagues. This is actually really important. And now I'm
8:58
learning more and more about how just a threat
9:02
to our national security, our food security,
9:07
is the way that we treat animals because we're seeing this
9:11
growing emergence of viruses, of pandemic potential because
9:14
of the growing number of animals that we can find. So that
9:18
brought me along this path and also mostly my, my day
9:22
job is working as a veterinarian, working for
9:25
nonprofits on companion animals, providing access to care,
9:29
high quality, high volume, spay, neuter and that sort of thing. So that's
9:33
allowed me to both treat individual
9:36
companion animals while also advocate for
9:40
farmed animal welfare reforms. And ultimately
9:44
my goal would be a scaling down of animal
9:47
based protein production and a support of animal free
9:51
methods of protein production. Starting with. You gave me a
9:55
flashback to. I sometimes have guest speakers in my
9:58
class and one of my guest speakers was a vet who was
10:02
an advisor to all of the labs on campus.
10:06
And the closing slide of her presentation had like, had a
10:10
kind of a cartoon with people with sheets over their heads and it said like
10:13
HSUS on the sheet. And she was making them out to be terrorists.
10:17
And I thought that's because, you know, within the movement they were not exactly
10:20
viewed as out there in terms of rights. But people do, and you
10:24
mentioned people do view animal
10:28
advocates as sort of crazy and ill
10:31
informed. And that's, you know, you and I, I think I both trying to, to
10:35
fight that. You know, you from the veterinary perspective and me from the legal perspective.
10:38
It's, it's, it's not all people that don't know what they're talking about.
10:42
Yeah, we're viewed as like overly emotional. And especially
10:46
when you're a woman, if you're a woman trying
10:49
to save animals, nobody cares. But if, you know, there are some men in the
10:53
animal rights movement who are saving animals and you know, crying on camera and being
10:57
overly emotional, of course they get all the attention and clicks because it's like,
11:00
oh, a man breaking the, these norms. But of course
11:04
they're sometimes doing it in a very manipulative way.
11:08
So I guess you've become an activist, you have maybe been
11:12
maligned by some people or being too outspoken. Do you want
11:16
to tell me about that? What they've said the Toll it's taken on you. Oh,
11:20
yeah, it's amazing. My veterinary colleagues, they sent this meme
11:23
around about me to vet various veterinary Facebook
11:27
groups saying, Beware, Dr. Heath has an agenda that doesn't
11:31
mean anything positive for our profession. They do this
11:34
big long screed about how I'm in all these four H groups and how
11:38
I'm in these equestrian groups, which I was a former 4H er, so
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that's why I'm in those groups. And I'm in, you know, equestrian horse groups because
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I was a horsey person, you know, kind of implying that
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I'm there to like gather data and all of these things.
11:53
And so they recommended blocking me and I to this day been blocked
11:57
from various veterinary Facebook groups, even though I've always gone
12:01
about this in very professional ways. I've been accused of being a
12:04
liar, I've been accused of trespassing onto
12:08
farms. And this one large
12:11
farming Facebook page with a million followers
12:15
was calling for my veterinary license to be revoked because I
12:19
had taken pictures of sick and dead cows from this avian
12:22
influenza outbreak that we're having in the Central Valley of California.
12:26
So I've, I've faced a lot of backlash. I've been banned from attending
12:30
the AVMA's Cargill sponsored Humane ending symposium because
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I disagree with using heat stroke based
12:37
methods to kill farmed animals and support access to
12:41
nitrogen based foam and nitrogen gas, which are less
12:45
cruel methods. And it's outrageous. Sort of the
12:48
backlash that I've gotten. But it's also been very good
12:52
because I just highlight look at what happens to somebody who's
12:56
trying to professionally advocate
13:00
for improvements in animal welfare
13:03
and science based solutions to our
13:07
greatest problems. This is the type of
13:11
silencing and backlash that I face from corporate interests when
13:15
trying to obey my veterinary oath.
13:18
Everybody should be outraged by this. And it's gotten a lot of press attention.
13:22
I've received, you know, international press for doing this and
13:25
for the backlash that I've received. So every time I face
13:29
backlash, it's been really, honestly very positive. And more and more
13:33
people join us and more and more veterinarians realize how they've been
13:36
lied to by the industry. And you found out about some of
13:40
the things that were being said about you because of a FOIA request.
13:44
Yeah, it was a FOIA request and this group,
13:48
the Animal Agriculture alliance, had sent out an email
13:52
to members of the, the National Pork Board. And so that's how
13:56
this email was received, basically saying this
14:00
veterinarian in California is trying
14:04
to shadow a livestock Vet. And we believe her
14:08
intentions are to gather information she can use against the industry.
14:12
So spread this around to your contacts in
14:15
California. So basically, like, no, I couldn't have any
14:19
relationship with any livestock veterinarians to understand
14:23
what they're going through, which is my intention. My intention is to bridge
14:27
the divide and bring some conversations between
14:31
animal welfare advocates, animal rights activists, and
14:34
veterinarians. I never have maligned any of my
14:38
veterinary colleagues other than merely saying what they say.
14:42
But if anybody wanted to speak to me on conditions of
14:45
confidentiality, I would never betray that.
14:48
But they're, you know, portraying me as somebody who's a liar and
14:52
deceptive and manipulative and all of these things, which is quite damaging
14:56
to my reputation. And you got that as, I mean, a FOIA
14:59
request for those who don't know is a Freedom of Information act request,
15:03
which means those documents about you were in the
15:07
possession of where, the Department of Agriculture? Yeah, this was the
15:10
Department of Agriculture, Agriculture Marketing Service. So they
15:14
oversee things like the pork Board, and
15:18
that's how you can get emails that they're,
15:22
you know, sending and receiving. And I, since then, I've
15:25
really taken advantage of that and gotten a lot more. I know you have a
15:28
show called FOIA Fridays, right? Yeah, we do. And we
15:32
go through the FOIAs that we received every week, and we draft new
15:36
FOIAs, and it's amazing what will find.
15:39
What are the kind of themes that come through on those findings? A lot
15:43
of it is how they're messaging. They're
15:47
very strategic and manipulative about how they message
15:50
stuff. They understand the importance of
15:54
maintaining consumer confidence in their products, and
15:58
it discusses their strategies for how they do that and the importance of
16:02
getting veterinarians on their side and the importance of having
16:05
veterinary voices lend legitimacy to things like ventilation
16:08
shutdown. And tell us what. What ventilation shutdown is.
16:12
Ventilation shutdown is sealing up buildings, pumping in
16:15
heat, and waiting for the animals inside to die.
16:19
This is a depopulation method that was allowed
16:23
by the American Veterinary Medical association in
16:26
response to things like the avian influenza
16:30
outbreak. And it was even used during COVID
16:33
19, when the pork industry had failed to
16:37
put plans in place for what would happen if there was a
16:40
slaughterhouse bottleneck. Many of the workers at the
16:44
slaughterhouses were sick and not coming to work because
16:47
of COVID That decreased capacity by 45%.
16:51
So the producers resorted to sealing up these barns
16:55
of pigs, pumping in heat and sometimes steam, and waiting for the
16:59
pigs inside to die, which was quite horrifying, and
17:03
just showed Their lack of planning for these sorts of
17:07
situations. And we have specific emails saying
17:10
how we're, it's going to need a veterinary perspective for what
17:14
these producers are going to have to do because it is. Going to
17:18
look ugly to the public. So we're going to need a veterinarian to
17:22
say there's really no suffering involved or not much suffering or it's not
17:25
worried about. Yeah, that. Because we have the trust of the public.
17:29
Public trusts us to do the right thing. And, and
17:33
here our profession's reputation was being weaponized
17:37
to support this horrible act of violence against animals
17:41
to protect corporate profits and protect consumer confidence in
17:45
the pork industry, which was quite horrifying.
17:49
We will talk a little bit about pork producers because, you know, the reason that
17:52
you and I got together for this discussion is a proposed law
17:56
that you have been active in and you mentioned that
18:00
industry cares about how they're perceived and that often comes
18:03
through in the way bills are named. So this is a, you know, a Farm
18:07
Protection act is the way that it's named, but it's sort of a
18:11
reincarnation of the bill that was originally the King Amendment and then
18:15
the EATS act and now it's the Farm Protection Act. Let's
18:18
talk about that and your testimony around it. So I guess I'll
18:22
put on my law professor hat for a minute and talk about what
18:26
protections exist out there for animals that are raised for food
18:30
because I think people assume that there are a lot more
18:33
protections than there are. Federal law does pretty much nothing
18:37
to protect farm animals until they are on
18:40
the truck on the way to the slaughterhouse. There are no standards,
18:44
no inspections for how the animals have to be treated on a
18:48
farm or in a feedlot. There's a very minor
18:52
and largely non enforced protection about how long they can be on a truck without
18:56
any food or water on their way to the slaughterhouse. And there's a
18:59
requirement that they be rendered insensible to pain before they
19:03
are slaughtered, which as you mentioned earlier, with the volume of
19:06
production we have now and the limited amount of oversight is
19:10
also sometimes not adhered to. But there really
19:14
is nothing that protects the animals before they
19:17
are on their way to the slaughterhouse. And some states have decided
19:21
that, well, people want that people want some level of animal welfare,
19:25
quality of life for the animals that are destined to be
19:29
slaughtered. So states like California adopted, in California it's called
19:33
Prop 12. But other states have adopted something similar that says if
19:36
you want to sell animal products in the state,
19:40
you can't use certain intense
19:43
confinement methods. Like gestation crates for pigs where they can't
19:47
turn around battery cages for eggs. So some states
19:51
have said, you know, the federal law has not regulated this, but we as a
19:54
state are going to regulate that. And that Prop 12 went to
19:58
the US Supreme Court, challenged by the pork producers, and
20:02
it was upheld. They were challenging California's ability to
20:05
regulate animal production. It is a very long and fractured
20:09
opinion, but the basic argument is if the production happens somewhere else like
20:13
Iowa, should California be able to regulate it? And the court said
20:16
yes, if they're selling products in California, they can regulate what products are sold there.
20:20
That obviously doesn't make the industry very happy. And they are now trying
20:24
to get around it with this Farm Protection Act. So tell me about that
20:28
and your involvement with it. Yeah. So the U.S. house Committee
20:32
on Agriculture just had this hearing, an examination of the implications
20:35
of Prop 12, and they discussed all of
20:39
the problems with Prop 12. And during this hearing, there was no
20:43
veterinary voices. It was all industry people speaking
20:47
and they're hoping to introduce. They talked about the Save
20:50
our Bacon Act, HR 4673,
20:54
which just is a retread of another act that they were trying to
20:58
pass earlier, the Ending Agriculture Trade Suppression act or the EATS
21:01
Act. The ironic thing about the Save or Bacon act is Prop
21:05
12 actually doesn't regulate bacon. It doesn't affect
21:09
bacon. So you can sell bacon in California even
21:13
if the pigs come from mothers who are confined to these gestation
21:16
crates. So it's really another example of their
21:20
gaslighting. But they recently had this hearing, they're looking at all of
21:23
these different ways to overturn Prof. 12. But
21:27
during these congressional hearings, here's what you don't hear,
21:31
is that research shows that 92.6% of
21:34
created SOWs exhibit abnormal repetitive
21:38
behaviors, which are these stereotypies which show that
21:42
they're very stressed. These are coping mechanisms that they
21:45
have to. These sows have higher levels of stress hormones
21:49
compared to group house sows. And this weakens the. And that's something you'd only ever
21:53
hear from a veterinarian. You're not going to hear that from industry. Yeah, the
21:56
industry doesn't care about this. So this affects
22:00
foodborne pathogens like Salmonella and Campylobacter and these
22:04
pathogens, it makes them more
22:07
virulent and enhances and promotes their
22:11
growth of these pathogens, which these pathogens then infect their
22:14
piglets who are born
22:17
immunosuppressed and they remain infected with these
22:20
pathogens to slaughter. So it's really,
22:24
it's we also, we think of this Prop 12 as being an
22:28
animal welfare law, but really it's also a
22:31
food safety and public health law as well
22:35
because piglets of group house sows show better resistance and
22:38
resilience to these diseases. And
22:42
pork is the leading source of foodborne illness in the United states.
22:46
It's responsible 787,000 illnesses
22:50
annually. Salmonella alone is responsible for
22:53
$1.9 billion in annual public health
22:56
costs. And so they're talking about the economic implications
23:00
of all of this, but they're not talking about the public health
23:04
costs associated with this. So you talked about
23:07
hearings. Did you testify at the hearings? No, I'm just doing advocacy.
23:11
Of course they wouldn't let me testify. I mean, does any. Has
23:15
anyone. So let's, let's back up, I guess, and say the hearings
23:19
are because they are proposing a bill
23:23
that would negate Prop 12 and all the laws like it and say that
23:26
states cannot regulate this. Right. Yeah. The main
23:30
thing that they say is our bill makes it clear if you don't grow it,
23:34
you don't get to regulate it. Which is so ironic
23:38
because Florida and Alabama, Mississippi, Montana,
23:42
Indiana, Nebraska and Texas have implemented
23:45
bans on cultivated meat. And I don't think they grow it,
23:49
but they're regulating it. So I wonder, can always, I'm going
23:52
to. The state can always protect the health and safety of its citizens. So as
23:56
soon as you say it's also a food safety issue, it seems to
24:00
me clear that the state can, can protect its citizens. Absolutely. It
24:04
should be able to protect its citizens. So, and it's outrageous
24:07
that they're making all of these arguments. They're talking about how
24:11
retail protection, pork prices in California have increased by
24:14
18.7% year over year. And so as
24:18
a result of that, low income households
24:21
reduced their pork purchases by 22%, which should be
24:25
a good thing because that means they're going to spend less on
24:28
healthcare costs, they're going to not take time off
24:32
work, they're going to be spending more time in the grocery store
24:36
and you know, retail stores buying things because they're not sick with
24:39
salmonella, Campylobacter and all of these things that happen
24:43
from people who consume pork that comes from pigs
24:47
whose mothers were confined to 2 and a half foot by 7 and a half
24:50
foot gestation crates for 114 days of their pregnancy.
24:54
So I guess, you know, despite its name about protection
24:57
or save our bacon or whatever this is, really, industry
25:01
does not want to invest in making changes that will
25:05
improve animal welfare. Yeah. But it's
25:09
interesting because a lot of the small pork producers have already
25:12
invested in making these changes. So if they were to
25:16
overturn this, of course those small ones would be at a loss. And
25:20
they don't want the animal advocates to win because next
25:23
year we might ban something else. They kept saying, what if
25:27
next year they make the requirement now 25
25:31
square feet of space, or now it's 24 square feet, then we're.
25:35
We'll have to change. Then it's like, well, yeah,
25:38
fight that. Then I guess, you know, it's. It's. Yeah. Because Prop 12
25:42
came up, as a lot of laws do in California, as a ballot initiative,
25:46
which means, you know, it goes directly to the people first to say, is this
25:49
something that you want? And then if the answer is yes, which it was,
25:53
the legislature figures out how to effectuate that. So it's. It's
25:57
clearly the will of the people. And there was plenty of
26:01
opposition, putting out ads that tried to tell people
26:04
horror stories about what their food would cost, and people still
26:08
voted for it. So that's. That's what democracy is. Yeah. Despite
26:12
the billions of dollars of marketing by this industry to get
26:16
people to want to eat their products, to think that their products are
26:19
healthy and nutritious and something that people
26:23
need in order to survive, the advocates still won.
26:27
And that's saying something. So I, you know, I
26:31
think it's a good sign that that's going in the right direction.
26:34
But we have to protect our state's right to
26:38
implement this, to protect our own public health and the welfare of
26:42
animals. Absolutely. And this is. This is still an open issue in
26:45
Washington. We don't know whether it's going to pass yet at this point.
26:49
No, we don't. And we're advocating for people to contact their
26:53
veterinarians, to get their veterinarians to contact their
26:56
representatives and make them aware of these facts and
27:00
how it does threaten public health. Because this
27:04
isn't being talked about. The food safety risk aspect of
27:07
it isn't being talked about. And it's all framed as these radical
27:11
animal rights activists who somehow got this law
27:14
passed. But really it's.
27:18
Veterinarians and food safety officials
27:21
are advocating for this because it's will
27:25
protect our public health and food safety, and anything we can do
27:29
to reduce pork consumption will save us potentially
27:32
billions of dollars in food safety risks.
27:36
So I think that's one really good reason to support this.
27:39
And it's so important to come at it from that angle, because we're always
27:43
thinking about. In trying to be advocates for animals,
27:47
the alliances that we can form from different perspectives.
27:51
And back shortly after I started teaching, the Westland
27:54
Meats video came out that showed basically, you know, dairy
27:58
cows spent dairy cows being sort of pushed with a
28:02
bulldozer to. They were supposed to be ambulatory if they were going to be
28:05
slaughtered, they weren't ambulatory. And some people like you and
28:09
I would care about the welfare of the cows then. But it was promoted by
28:13
HSUS at the time as and this is what goes into
28:17
your child's school lunch. So, you know, more
28:20
people care about that and whether or not that's a safe product.
28:24
Yeah, absolutely. And the problem is this growing number of
28:28
animals that we are housing and confining is a playground for
28:32
virus mutation. And now we have dairy cows that are
28:35
infected with human, pig and avian influenza viruses.
28:39
And this creates the perfect conditions for viral
28:42
reassortment. And perhaps we can learn
28:46
something about how we got the industry in general
28:50
just industrial corporations to address pollution.
28:54
I'm thinking of David Huntshell who's one of America's
28:58
leading historians of technology. He had this
29:01
2005 article called Regulation as the Mother of Invention
29:05
and it explained that it is well established that the lack of
29:09
immediate financial benefits leads companies to underinvest
29:13
in R and D. And this general problem is particularly
29:16
severe when it comes to pollution control because pollution
29:20
prevention is a public good not well
29:23
reflected in the market price of goods and services. The
29:27
incentives for private investment are weak. Competitive
29:30
forces just don't provide enough justification for the long
29:34
term investment required. There's a lack of driving demand. However,
29:38
when government establishes a regulation, it creates demand.
29:42
If companies know they have to meet a firm regulation
29:45
with a definite deadline, they respond and they innovate. And I
29:49
think that's what Prop 12 does here and addresses
29:53
this issue with food safety and security and
29:56
hopefully will inspire corporations to see, hey,
30:00
maybe we should invest in animal free methods of protein production because that's the way
30:04
the wind is blowing. That is very brilliant because you know, in
30:08
terms of the improvements in farm animal welfare that Prop 12 called for, including
30:12
all of that technology exists and agriculture companies
30:16
are going to invest in new technologies and new housing
30:20
anyway. So putting the regulation in place sort of forces it and gives,
30:24
gives it a deadline. And I've seen the same thing on the lab
30:27
animal side of things that if there's no incentive
30:31
created to come up with non animal testing by a certain
30:35
date, then there's no reason for a company that's profit
30:38
driven to do it. But if there's a deadline. They come up with
30:42
amazing new methods that don't involve animals. Absolutely.
30:45
Yeah. I think that's why regulation is so important. But it's of
30:49
course viewed by corporate interests as something bad and
30:53
they frame it as like hurting their freedoms and hurt. And people
30:57
buy into that. The center for Consumer Freedom and speaking of misnomers and.
31:01
And yes, yeah. So I always say, like I'm a card carrying lover of regulation
31:04
because the point that you make, which we call externalities, you know, the
31:08
external costs of animal agriculture are felt by us,
31:12
they're not felt by industry. And so regulation is the only
31:15
thing that stands between, you know, you and filthy
31:19
water, basically. Clean water and clean air. That all comes by regulation. That's not going
31:23
to come just because a corporation decided it's a good thing to do.
31:26
Absolutely. And I think. But it's framed as like, oh, a nanny state
31:30
protecting the people. And we have to reframe it as.
31:33
No, we are standing up to these abusive corporations
31:38
and that's, that's the framing. We're standing up to those in power
31:41
and we're saying, no, you cannot take advantage of us like this.
31:45
That is inspiring. I mean, you said earlier you're advising
31:49
people with the farm protection bill to talk to their veterinarians and get their
31:52
veterinarians to write their legislator. And I know that you started an
31:56
organization called Our Honor to support
31:59
veterinarians who are speaking out. You probably are still a minority
32:03
in their profession. So tell me about Our Honor and the kinds of people that
32:06
are involved in that. Yeah, Our Honor. We support and
32:10
empower veterinarians and animal professionals to work for the best
32:14
interests of others, no matter their species. And I
32:17
find actually the vast majority of veterinarians I talk to
32:21
are aligned with us, but veterinarians are very busy. They're
32:24
working hard day in and day out taking care of animals.
32:28
60% of veterinarians are companion animal
32:32
veterinarians and they've been told to stay in their lane.
32:35
But at the same time, the farm animal veterinarians,
32:39
those who are advocates for the animals and want the
32:43
animals to be protected and are trying to stand up to these
32:47
corporations, they need the help of those companion
32:51
animal veterinarians who won't suffer retaliation
32:54
and loss career opportunities for standing up. So companion
32:58
animal veterinarians are in this very good place
33:01
of being able to speak the truth and
33:05
hold these corporations accountable without fear of
33:09
losing their job. Like lab animal vets do. I have so many lab
33:12
animal vets reach out to me who do end up Quitting after they've
33:16
tried to improve animal welfare in their laboratories, and
33:20
they fail. And they realize this industry is not where it's
33:23
at, and they. They leave. But a lot of the vets who are
33:27
stuck inside view it as like, I'm. These animals only hope.
33:31
But, you know, I think more and more are starting to question these
33:34
things and starting to see the way that corporations have shaped
33:38
the culture and the way science is done, and
33:42
they should be questioning these things. So we just give
33:46
veterinarians a voice. We're mainly focused on getting some press
33:49
attention on these issues and lending legitimacy to various
33:53
animal advocacy campaigns. But we also hold the animal rights
33:57
movement accountable when they don't get things right. We
34:00
want them to get their facts right, because that's been a big failing of the
34:03
animal rights movement that makes us not appear legitimate
34:07
is because we often sensationalize things and we aren't
34:11
truthful in things. And we think we're doing good, but
34:15
we're actually causing harm. And I
34:19
think we help people realize that we are all
34:22
victims in this system, and we can change these
34:26
systems if we start to speak out and share our stories.
34:30
That's very interesting, especially the part about recognizing
34:33
as a mediator. I like when people acknowledge that there are weaknesses in
34:37
my argument, too. So you're saying there's. There's a weakness on the animal rights side
34:40
of sometimes grabbing the most sensational thing and spreading
34:44
it without really knowing that. The truth. Truth of it for yourself.
34:48
So that's. That's something that you have to face. And. And you brought up
34:52
conscience. And I. I'm picturing these lab animal vets who got into it
34:55
because they loved animals, but feel a little, you know, their conscience is
34:59
giving them a hard time. You've often used the term ethical
35:02
resilience, so especially, you know, for those who care about
35:06
animals, but they feel overwhelmed. What do you mean by that term?
35:10
Well, I. I think we do get overwhelmed. And I think it comes
35:14
from just this feeling that everybody
35:17
is bad, you know, if you're not vegan.
35:21
Those people who hear the arguments and don't go
35:25
vegan, oh, my gosh, they're bad people. And
35:29
how can I live in this world that's surrounded by all these people who are
35:33
such bad people, and you just can't look at it that way. I
35:36
think we have to be grateful for our wins. We have
35:40
to focus on. On the good things and focus on the people who
35:44
are working with us to advance animal
35:48
protection and advance these causes and issues. Don't
35:51
get Bogged down by the violence of it
35:55
all. And it's really hard. And I think you just have to take care
35:59
of yourself, work out, meditate, do all these things so that you can be
36:02
resilient and show up and do good work for the, the animals
36:06
and the world every day. And just having this feeling
36:10
of judgment of others and
36:14
feeling negative and constantly
36:17
looking at the bad things, it does wear you down. It leads to compassion
36:21
fatigue, which veterinarians face too. What
36:25
gives you hope? If we were talking now to veterinarians and
36:28
advocates, what's your message to them? What gives you hope?
36:32
What gives you hope is the people coming together and the veterinarians coming
36:36
together and realizing that there's a future with
36:40
animal free methods of protein production. There's a future where we don't have
36:44
to exploit animals. And people are joining together,
36:48
mobilizing and organizing every day to make that
36:51
future a reality. So that gives me hope. Every time I
36:55
get a new email from a veterinarian who's like,
36:59
I love what you're doing, thank you so much. And shares their
37:03
story with me, that gives me hope. And every time
37:07
I hear a vet student who is pushing back against
37:10
their harmful curriculum in veterinary school and is trying to
37:14
make things better for the next class that comes behind them, that
37:18
gives me hope. And all of these things add up and we just have
37:22
to do it faster than the corporations are doing it.
37:25
But I think we will. Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Crystal,
37:29
for being that, that voice against the much
37:33
louder voice in corporations. So I really
37:37
appreciate your joining us today. I'm going to put links in the show notes to
37:41
your podcast and your website and encourage
37:45
especially veterinarians to reach out if they're looking for support
37:49
in speaking their mind on these issues. Thank you so much and thank you for
37:53
all you do and thank you for having me on the show. Crystal
37:57
decided to turn a negative into a positive. She
38:00
considers all the backlash that she got to be a net positive
38:04
because it brought attention to the issues she set out to shed
38:07
light on. May we all figure out how to do that as
38:11
we navigate the ups and downs of speaking up for beings
38:15
that don't vote and can't speak up for themselves.
38:18
Today's Be the Change action is to let your congressperson
38:22
know that you're against the Save Our Bacon act, which is
38:26
HR73. It's easy. I'll put a
38:29
link that will show you how to find their contact information in the show notes
38:33
and you can call or send an email and also let them
38:37
know that for the same reason they should vote against the PUR
38:41
P U R R act, which is HR597
38:45
that's trying to do something similar on the companion animal front. They
38:49
want to stop states from funding subsidized spay neuter services
38:53
with fees on pet food manufacturers. That
38:57
plan has been effective in Delaware and other states and they're trying
39:01
to take it away. So this is great practice to start your advocacy
39:05
journey. Make your voice heard. Thanks so much for being
39:08
part of this great community. That's it for
39:12
today. The Animal Advocate Podcast is brought to you by the
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Animal Advocacy Academy. You can find episodes and
39:20
show notes@animaladvocacyacademy.com
39:23
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39:45
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39:49
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39:53
or feature them in a future episode, or both.
39:57
And remember, compassion is great. The
40:00
compassionate action is infinitely better. Until
40:04
next week, Live with Compassion.