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CDC in a Death Spiral · Paging America

0:00
SPEAKER_00: I think it's so broken right now that it will be hard to piece it all back together again.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: And yes, there are employees there who are more than willing to jump in and to do that.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, at CDC,
0:11
SPEAKER_00: you become accustomed to joining responses to help bring things back from the brink.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: But it's going to be a really hard road because,
0:19
SPEAKER_00: like I said, so much of this, we see it as chaos, but it was actually by design.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: I've been a little more active on Instagram,
0:29
SPEAKER_02: trying to use that tool because it's a good way to communicate with people,
0:31
SPEAKER_02: but I'm getting some weird things on my Instagram feed.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: And I just saw a thing about Homestead Honey.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's the name of the person or if that's just the product.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: I feel like marketing honey for babies.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: And you have a baby, and I thought- Babies aren't supposed to
0:51
SPEAKER_03: have honey because of botulism.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: So you can have spores in the honey no matter where you get the honey.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I don't care if it's on your little homestead or where it is.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: You can have these botulism spores.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: And for kids over one and for us as adults, like your gut can deal with them.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: But babies have immature guts and they can't.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: Rob, the way I learned this.
1:33
SPEAKER_03: I was about to feed my baby honey, and my wife dramatically intervened.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: Did she just smack it out of your hand?
1:41
SPEAKER_02: No!
1:43
SPEAKER_02: Do not!
1:45
SPEAKER_02: You know,
1:46
SPEAKER_02: and in your defense,
1:47
SPEAKER_02: if someone didn't specifically tell you this,
1:49
SPEAKER_02: why the hell would you ever think this?
1:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, why would you think that?
1:52
SPEAKER_03: All right.
1:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've also been trying to use Instagram more,
1:56
SPEAKER_03: and it's a cesspool of things that are both joyful and very strange.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: I already told you, if we ever achieved universal healthcare, that is my tagline.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: I broke my brain for universal healthcare.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: For the movement, I'm willing to break it.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: Your hosts are out here breaking their brains with the internet for universal healthcare.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: Welcome back,
2:16
SPEAKER_03: everyone,
2:17
SPEAKER_03: to Paging America,
2:19
SPEAKER_03: where we explore the power and profit shaping American healthcare and your home base
2:22
SPEAKER_03: for news and guests.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Myles Baker.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Dr.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: Rob Davidson.
2:29
SPEAKER_03: And we have a great show for you today.
2:31
SPEAKER_03: A lot to cover in the news.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to just start at the beginning.
2:34
SPEAKER_03: We are not going to cover Donald Trump's Absolutely mad, sleepy vaccine announcements.
2:42
SPEAKER_03: If you want, go back and get our take on that.
2:45
SPEAKER_03: You can follow it on our on-call segment where we picked that apart,
2:49
SPEAKER_03: although that was easily the strangest thing that happened in healthcare this week.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: And then at the back half of the show,
2:55
SPEAKER_03: we have a great guest,
2:58
SPEAKER_03: Yolanda Jacobs,
2:59
SPEAKER_03: who's the head of the union that represents the CDC,
3:01
SPEAKER_03: is back on the show giving us an update on what's happening at the CDC with
3:05
SPEAKER_03: the people who make The organization go and the workers there.
3:10
SPEAKER_03: Also in the show,
3:11
SPEAKER_03: we have the future of healthcare with progressives and pro-healthcare politicians on
3:16
SPEAKER_03: the move on a number of different fronts across the Midwest primaries
3:19
SPEAKER_03: that happened this week and last week.
3:21
SPEAKER_03: Red states turned their back on Medicaid patients.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: Trump's personal lawyer Medicare is now attorney general and has big implications
3:27
SPEAKER_03: for healthcare.
3:28
SPEAKER_03: And the FDA has now approved flavored nicotine pouches,
3:32
SPEAKER_03: and we want to cover some of the corruption elements of that.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: So big show, and we'll get right into it.
3:38
SPEAKER_03: We have started to see the outlines of the landscape of the primary,
3:41
SPEAKER_03: the primary in Michigan, the primary in Wisconsin, and the primary in Minnesota.
3:46
SPEAKER_03: And we've had some real interesting outcomes.
3:49
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, Dr. Abdul El-Sayed won in the Senate primary.
3:52
SPEAKER_03: That was sort of the marquee Senate primary,
3:54
SPEAKER_03: which was billed by the press as sort of the establishment versus the progressive.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: But now we have outcomes in Wisconsin and Minnesota,
4:04
SPEAKER_03: and the Wisconsin outcome was a real shock.
4:06
SPEAKER_03: Francesca Hong came up short after being way ahead in the polling lead,
4:12
SPEAKER_03: and then Senate candidate Peggy Flanagan won her primary pretty handily
4:17
SPEAKER_03: in Minnesota,
4:18
SPEAKER_03: running on an unabashed progressive agenda,
4:21
SPEAKER_03: which included progressive healthcare elements.
4:25
SPEAKER_03: You know,
4:26
SPEAKER_03: I think the thing that was lost to me in this story was that
4:31
SPEAKER_03: the gubernatorial nominee in Wisconsin,
4:33
SPEAKER_03: David Crowley,
4:34
SPEAKER_03: actually had a pretty progressive record in terms of health care policies,
4:38
SPEAKER_03: including on proposing a state-based robust public option,
4:41
SPEAKER_03: which is not something that a lot of states in the U.S. have, just Nevada.
4:46
SPEAKER_03: And Colorado have put together public options that they've passed
4:50
SPEAKER_03: with other states talking about it.
4:52
SPEAKER_03: But it's sort of hard to get across the finish line
4:54
SPEAKER_03: when there's insurance industry stakeholders in a state.
4:58
SPEAKER_03: So, Rob,
5:00
SPEAKER_03: I'm wondering if you saw anything that was most surprising to you from Michigan
5:05
SPEAKER_03: to Wisconsin to Minnesota in how the primaries played out.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I will never try to be a political pundit.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: People don't want to hear my political punditry,
5:12
SPEAKER_02: but I don't know what the hell's going on with polling in these primaries, right?
5:17
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: Like, Abdul was up 15 and he wins by one.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: Now, the reality is, Abdul,
5:21
SPEAKER_02: with his progressive agenda,
5:24
SPEAKER_02: winning in a state like Michigan by one is massive, right?
5:28
SPEAKER_02: That's, like, incredible.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: And had it not been for the expectations the week leading up to it,
5:34
SPEAKER_02: It would have been reported exactly that way.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: But but because of the polling, it's like, oh, well, you only won by one and a half or whatever.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: Same thing in Wisconsin.
5:43
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know,
5:44
SPEAKER_02: Francesca Hong,
5:45
SPEAKER_02: as far as I saw, like polling had her up double digits, something like that.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: And David Crowley ekes out a win.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: And and and like she got like really close for someone,
5:56
SPEAKER_02: I guess, had no TV ads, you know, up in like in a state like Wisconsin, like.
6:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the hell's going on with the polling.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing about Crowley you mentioned,
6:06
SPEAKER_02: I think people have to really drill into,
6:09
SPEAKER_02: and I hope people who supported Francesca Hong in the state of Wisconsin look
6:12
SPEAKER_02: at this.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: He wasn't the same type of establishment figure as Haley Stevens was here in Michigan, right?
6:18
SPEAKER_02: He had Tony Evers out there,
6:21
SPEAKER_02: you know, stomping for him, you know, barnstorming the state in the last week.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: You know, Tony Evers, really popular governor who decided not to run.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, he's like, he's going for a public option.
6:30
SPEAKER_02: Like that is not, that isn't an also ran in the category of healthcare access.
6:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
6:37
SPEAKER_03: you wouldn't cast David Crowley as a person who has corporate capture or is captured
6:44
SPEAKER_03: by the healthcare corporations, and you wouldn't cast him as someone who is...
6:47
SPEAKER_03: He has a really interesting story from where he came from,
6:50
SPEAKER_03: and he's an extremely young county executive from Milwaukee County,
6:55
SPEAKER_03: the biggest county by far in the state of Wisconsin.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: And so the national press that a lot of people consumed the Wisconsin story through was...
7:05
SPEAKER_03: And grafting a Minnesota narrative and a Michigan narrative onto
7:09
SPEAKER_03: the Wisconsin experience when in-state it just looked and felt a lot different
7:14
SPEAKER_03: in terms of a campaign and didn't fall neatly around ideological lines.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's good, right?
7:20
SPEAKER_02: Because it is a gubernatorial election and people in Wisconsin are the ones
7:23
SPEAKER_02: who are going to be voting come November.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's fine what everyone on the outside wants to think of it as,
7:30
SPEAKER_02: but the people in the state understand the stakes.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: And even Peggy Flanagan and Angie Craig, right?
7:36
SPEAKER_02: Maybe not as stark of a contrast as Abdul and Haley here in Michigan,
7:40
SPEAKER_02: but people, you know, they like the friction of that.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
7:45
SPEAKER_02: Peggy Flanagan,
7:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
7:46
SPEAKER_02: arguably the much more progressive of the two,
7:49
SPEAKER_02: or the more progressive of the two, you know, came out ahead.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Like this has implications for where policy might be going.
7:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:55
SPEAKER_03: And then as much as we want to try to make sure that the healthcare positions
7:58
SPEAKER_03: of candidates are highlighted, And that they matter to the elections.
8:02
SPEAKER_03: The Minnesota race really seemed to come down to how the candidates handled
8:07
SPEAKER_03: the ice surge that happened in Minnesota and what would happen moving forward
8:11
SPEAKER_03: with accountability for the agency.
8:14
SPEAKER_03: And Angie Craig had taken a yes vote on the Lincoln-Riley Act,
8:18
SPEAKER_03: and it seemed like a lot of the race hinged just on that single fact.
8:23
SPEAKER_03: There was another surprise win in this.
8:26
SPEAKER_03: We've talked about this race in the past,
8:29
SPEAKER_03: partly because we're familiar with it,
8:30
SPEAKER_03: but partly because there's not really a path to the majority that doesn't run
8:34
SPEAKER_03: through Lansing, Michigan.
8:37
SPEAKER_03: Will Lawrence,
8:37
SPEAKER_03: whose platform He was informed include guaranteed healthcare for all
8:40
SPEAKER_03: and immediately focused on healthcare once he was elected.
8:43
SPEAKER_03: He defeated the Alyssa Slotkin-backed candidate as well as the former ambassador
8:49
SPEAKER_03: to Ukraine who were sort of more traditional candidates.
8:53
SPEAKER_03: Neither were particularly bad candidates,
8:55
SPEAKER_03: but Will Lawrence ran this extremely insurgent Progressive campaign that had like
8:59
SPEAKER_03: a ton of volunteers, focused on data centers, plus talked about health care.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: And the very first thing that he did the day after the election is he held a health care rally.
9:10
SPEAKER_03: Let's take a look at that.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: My name is William Lawrence and I'm the Democratic nominee to defeat Tom Barrett
9:16
SPEAKER_01: and send an unbought representative to Congress.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: And just over a year ago,
9:21
SPEAKER_01: in July of 2025,
9:23
SPEAKER_01: I watched,
9:24
SPEAKER_01: along with everybody here,
9:26
SPEAKER_01: as Tom Barrett and the Republican Party took an axe to our healthcare system.
9:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:32
SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, that's a big choice, right?
9:35
SPEAKER_03: What are we going to try to,
9:36
SPEAKER_03: you know,
9:36
SPEAKER_03: when the spotlight's on me as a candidate the day after I win,
9:40
SPEAKER_03: what is my first message going to be?
9:41
SPEAKER_03: And Will Lawrence picked healthcare.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean, and here in Michigan,
9:44
SPEAKER_02: like for Abdul, Dr.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: Abdul El-Sayed to take that issue on,
9:48
SPEAKER_02: you know, take the mantle of that seems very natural.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Like the guy's a doctor, right?
9:52
SPEAKER_02: Worked in public health and yet he's about a lot of other policies besides health care.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: It really makes sense that he's such a strong voice on healthcare and the need
10:01
SPEAKER_02: for universal healthcare.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: Will Lawrence isn't particularly connected to healthcare as a profession or
10:06
SPEAKER_02: in his previous life prior to being a candidate,
10:09
SPEAKER_02: but recognized strategically, if nothing else, this is the issue, right?
10:15
SPEAKER_02: We keep saying that, and I think it's bearing out pretty well that it is a big issue.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: Tom Barrett in Lansing, Michigan 7th.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: We did vote to gut our healthcare system and should be held accountable.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: So I'm really glad.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: And we're actually going to talk to Will Lawrence.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: We've got it booked for next week.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: So we'll be talking to him next week about his race and, again,
10:36
SPEAKER_02: how he sees healthcare playing out over the next 12 weeks or at that point 11 weeks.
10:40
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
10:41
SPEAKER_03: Tune in for that.
10:42
SPEAKER_03: That's an all-important race to take back the House.
10:45
SPEAKER_03: Okay, Rob, moving on.
10:46
SPEAKER_03: So we have some news out of red states turning their back on Medicaid patients.
10:51
SPEAKER_03: Just a little background on this.
10:53
SPEAKER_03: Some states are turning down the one-year grace period from the new,
10:56
SPEAKER_03: more rigorous Medicaid work requirements and their draconian paperwork challenges.
11:01
SPEAKER_03: This is reporting from Politico.
11:02
SPEAKER_03: The federal government gave states the option of allowing people to stay on Medicaid
11:06
SPEAKER_03: through 2027 if they declare themselves too sick to work.
11:09
SPEAKER_03: With verification starting in 2028.
11:12
SPEAKER_03: But at least eight states are rejecting the grace period and demanding proof earlier.
11:17
SPEAKER_03: Starting in January,
11:18
SPEAKER_03: Arkansas, Idaho,
11:19
SPEAKER_03: Indiana, Iowa,
11:21
SPEAKER_03: North Carolina,
11:21
SPEAKER_03: and North Dakota, Ohio,
11:23
SPEAKER_03: and Utah will impose work rules that are stricter than those
11:26
SPEAKER_03: the administration is requiring.
11:28
SPEAKER_03: So we see sort of a collection of states that are making up the right flank.
11:34
SPEAKER_03: The fact that North Carolina, Iowa, And Utah, it surprises me as well.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: The fact that those three states are doing that,
11:41
SPEAKER_03: I think Utah historically has not,
11:43
SPEAKER_03: it's not been as severe as its other like red state cohorts,
11:47
SPEAKER_03: but North Carolina and Iowa,
11:48
SPEAKER_03: I think are dramatically overestimating their political position on this now
11:52
SPEAKER_03: that those seem It would be sort of blue-leaning.
11:54
SPEAKER_03: The decision of those states underscores many conservatives believe that
11:57
SPEAKER_03: the expansion of Medicaid under Obamacare covered too many people
12:00
SPEAKER_03: that they consider unworthy of support,
12:02
SPEAKER_03: such as non-disabled working-age adults without children.
12:05
SPEAKER_03: The policies adopted by the eight GOP-leaning states are the culmination of
12:08
SPEAKER_03: a massive lobbying campaign by conservative organizations who view
12:11
SPEAKER_03: the administration's decision to forgo verification of medical frailty next year as
12:16
SPEAKER_03: a loophole.
12:17
SPEAKER_03: What do you think, Rob?
12:17
SPEAKER_03: That seems like a strange way to go about enacting this already bad policy.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and don't forget Nebraska we talked about, I think, last week.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: They already did this, right?
12:28
SPEAKER_02: They jumped the gun over anyone.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: Already 200 people have lost coverage under the work reporting requirements.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: And I think we need to be very intentional about saying that these are reporting requirements.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: They're not work requirements.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: It's paperwork.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: It's red tape for places that supposedly want to shrink government
12:46
SPEAKER_02: and make it less burdensome, right?
12:50
SPEAKER_03: It is the definition of big government,
12:52
SPEAKER_03: and it is the definition of unneeded bureaucracy, and it is the height of hypocrisy.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: And doctors in these states need to speak out, because this is going to fall on you, right?
13:02
SPEAKER_02: People are going to have to come to you,
13:03
SPEAKER_02: and you're going to have to Figure out how to fill out these damn forms added to
13:07
SPEAKER_02: the list of the forms that you need to try to fill out just to get people
13:11
SPEAKER_02: the drugs they need or the tests they need.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: Now it's your own state government coming at you via the federal policy
13:17
SPEAKER_02: to make you fill That
13:24
SPEAKER_02: term is so gross to me, like deserve.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: What does that mean to deserve?
13:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
13:29
SPEAKER_02: Does Donald Trump, does he deserve healthcare from the federal government?
13:33
SPEAKER_02: Do all these Republican members of Congress who voted for all this shit deserve healthcare?
13:38
SPEAKER_02: Arguably less so than the people they're cutting it from.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: But here we are.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:45
SPEAKER_03: I want to come back to the content on Medicaid,
13:47
SPEAKER_03: but Rob,
13:48
SPEAKER_03: if you're as a doctor,
13:49
SPEAKER_03: does it ever feel like every institution in America is trying to get you
13:54
SPEAKER_03: to fill out more paperwork?
13:57
SPEAKER_02: Like, I will be honest, less so for me as an ER doc and fellow ER docs, like hospital-based.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: But for people,
14:03
SPEAKER_02: primary care,
14:04
SPEAKER_02: like the person I'm married to and for the primary care docs out there.
14:07
SPEAKER_03: Oh, my God.
14:08
SPEAKER_03: The Republicans.
14:09
SPEAKER_03: It just, like...
14:11
SPEAKER_03: The hospital system seems like everyone needs a lot.
14:15
SPEAKER_03: It looks like a lot of paperwork when you go to the doctor.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: You're like, yeah, that's a
14:19
SPEAKER_03: lot of stuff you got
14:19
SPEAKER_02: to do.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: A lot of it's computer-based now, right?
14:22
SPEAKER_02: Apparently,
14:22
SPEAKER_02: the biggest EMR system in the country is out in the whole state of Michigan today,
14:27
SPEAKER_02: so that's another problem.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: So it's sometimes clicks and filling out forms online.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: But there's been now hard data showing in the average primary care doctor's day,
14:40
SPEAKER_02: more than 50% of their time is spent dealing with their computers,
14:43
SPEAKER_02: doing things on the computer and not actually talking to patients and taking care
14:47
SPEAKER_02: of patients.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's an antiquated term to say paperwork,
14:52
SPEAKER_02: but it's just administrative burden, like you said, and it does.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: It largely falls on the backs of either the docs, PAs,
14:59
SPEAKER_02: NPs who are taking care of the patients or their office having to hire staff to deal
15:04
SPEAKER_02: with all this shit and adding cost and taking away the ability
15:08
SPEAKER_02: to actually provide health care for people.
15:09
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
15:10
SPEAKER_03: So I know the intricacies of Medicaid can become a little tedious, but I don't think so.
15:16
SPEAKER_03: I think it's very interesting because I think it exposes...
15:19
SPEAKER_03: What a lie this is.
15:20
SPEAKER_03: It gives away the lie.
15:21
SPEAKER_03: So we're going to follow us along for just a second, guys.
15:25
SPEAKER_03: One of the groups lobbying states to skip the grace period is the Foundation
15:28
SPEAKER_03: for Government Accountability,
15:30
SPEAKER_03: some of these fake AstroTurf groups,
15:32
SPEAKER_03: whose website erroneously declares able-bodied adults on Medicaid are driving
15:36
SPEAKER_03: the skyrocketing enrollment costs because most able-bodied adults
15:40
SPEAKER_03: on Medicaid do not work.
15:42
SPEAKER_03: So that's what they're saying.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: That's what the Republicans are saying.
15:44
SPEAKER_03: KFF, a nonpartisan research shop,
15:47
SPEAKER_03: Found that 64% of Medicaid recipients are working already,
15:51
SPEAKER_03: at least part-time,
15:52
SPEAKER_03: and nearly all the rest,
15:54
SPEAKER_03: all the rest,
15:55
SPEAKER_03: are going to school,
15:56
SPEAKER_03: they're ill,
15:57
SPEAKER_03: they have a disability, they're retired, or they provide care to others.
16:01
SPEAKER_03: So this myth of like the able-bodied adult Is just that.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: It's a myth.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: The other thing, we've talked about this before, Medicaid isn't a check people get.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: It's healthcare coverage.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: So they're not sitting at home receiving funds from the government.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: They are...
16:20
SPEAKER_02: Having health insurance if they have to go to the hospital.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: And we've seen increases in people showing up at hospitals without insurance since
16:29
SPEAKER_02: the ACA subsidies went away.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: It's going to continue to go up.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: Guess what?
16:33
SPEAKER_02: They still need the health care.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: There's still federal laws.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Thank God that mandates hospitals treat those people.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: Those hospitals have to provide charity care.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: Now, this is why hospitals will be closing under this regime
16:45
SPEAKER_02: because people are showing up without health insurance.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: So mind you, again, they're not collecting a check.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: They don't get gift cards from Medicaid that cost you anything.
16:54
SPEAKER_02: It saves money.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: What would be a person who was gaming the Medicaid?
16:59
SPEAKER_03: Like, if I'm gonna, like, pretend I'm a Republican who's worried about...
17:03
SPEAKER_03: The able-bodied adult is... Then I have healthcare, and I'm gonna use it.
17:10
SPEAKER_03: So I'm, like, going...
17:11
SPEAKER_03: I'm, like, going...
17:13
SPEAKER_03: And, like, receiving health care.
17:16
SPEAKER_03: And as an able-bodied adult,
17:18
SPEAKER_03: maybe when I don't need it,
17:20
SPEAKER_03: and that's the grift I'm, like, showing up at the ER when I'm not ill.
17:23
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, it's so stupid.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's stupid.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: It's so stupid.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
17:27
SPEAKER_03: In federal news around health care,
17:30
SPEAKER_03: Trump's personal lawyer is now Attorney General,
17:31
SPEAKER_03: Todd Blanche,
17:32
SPEAKER_03: after pledging to make sure the Dobbs decision becomes permanent
17:36
SPEAKER_03: in every single state.
17:37
SPEAKER_03: So Todd Blanche is an anti-abortion zealot.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: He's Ben.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: He's an anti-abortion zealot.
17:43
SPEAKER_03: He cannot be trusted on these issues.
17:45
SPEAKER_03: He should not be taught.
17:46
SPEAKER_03: He's not qualified to be the attorney general, not particularly close.
17:50
SPEAKER_03: But on issues of women's health and reproductive rights, he's particularly spooky.
17:54
SPEAKER_03: Trump's personal lawyer, Todd Blanch, he was confirmed 50 to 49 as a vote in the Senate.
18:01
SPEAKER_03: And he was confirmed by Bill Cassidy.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: Possibly the most cowardly physician in America, Senator Bill Cassidy.
18:11
SPEAKER_03: Blanche said he would carefully review how the DOJ interprets the Comstock Act,
18:16
SPEAKER_03: which is a 150-year-old law which was mentioned throughout Project 2025 as
18:21
SPEAKER_03: a potential way to block the mailing of abortion pills nationwide or
18:24
SPEAKER_03: to ban abortion altogether.
18:26
SPEAKER_03: Just as a reminder,
18:27
SPEAKER_03: the Comstock Act is this ancient law that was meant to not ship Tawdry items.
18:36
SPEAKER_03: It was way before even modern reproductive care was considered a thing that was possible.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: So it being repurposed for this is particularly disingenuous.
18:48
SPEAKER_03: Blanche was on Trump's legal team for such greatest hits as
18:51
SPEAKER_03: the Stormy Daniels Hush Money case,
18:52
SPEAKER_03: the Mar-a-Lago Classified Documents case, and the Federal Election Obstruction case.
18:57
SPEAKER_03: So he's been there.
19:00
SPEAKER_03: You know, for all the strangest moments of the Trump administration from the very beginning.
19:04
SPEAKER_03: And along with basically every single Democrat in the country,
19:07
SPEAKER_03: a New York City bar actively opposed Blanche's AG,
19:10
SPEAKER_03: citing politically motivated prosecutions,
19:12
SPEAKER_03: violations of constitutional rights and court orders,
19:16
SPEAKER_03: misplaced loyalty to the president and the weaken of the Department of Justice
19:20
SPEAKER_03: and questions of personal ethics.
19:21
SPEAKER_03: So we got a real winner here as the new AG.
19:24
SPEAKER_03: Rob, what do you think?
19:25
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it sounds like that list of reasons to oppose him is kind of ho-hum
19:29
SPEAKER_02: for Bill Cassidy, right?
19:30
SPEAKER_02: Like the guy, another stain on his legacy as a senator and a doctor.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: And at least when he gave RFK Jr. the green light, right, and voted him through, he was...
19:44
SPEAKER_02: Ostensibly looking out for his political career,
19:47
SPEAKER_02: thinking, well,
19:49
SPEAKER_02: maybe I can please Trump enough that he won't primary me and I can still be
19:53
SPEAKER_02: a senator after 2026, right?
19:56
SPEAKER_02: That's terrible.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: It's craven and it's shameful, but at least one could argue that.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: What the hell is this guy doing now?
20:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: He expresses concern.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: He is reaching Susan Collins' level of concern without any follow-through or any consequences.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: We talked about this on an on-call segment I did with Dr.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Lyerly about Blanche on a call with pro-life leaders saying he would like to bring
20:25
SPEAKER_02: the Dobbs decision to every state.
20:27
SPEAKER_02: That's the intention.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: And you can interpret that however you want,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
20:33
SPEAKER_02: you know, back to Project 2025 and their goal for a national abortion ban.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's somewhere in this guy's wheelhouse, right?
20:40
SPEAKER_02: He's thinking of the DOJ and the AG's office.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: They can provide assistance in getting this done.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: And it's just terrible.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, shame on Cassidy.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: What does Cassidy have to gain from going along with this?
20:54
SPEAKER_03: Any ideas?
20:55
SPEAKER_03: What's in it for him is to not be bothered by his country gentleman at
20:59
SPEAKER_03: the country club or at the golf,
21:01
SPEAKER_03: you know, that he doesn't have to have an uncomfortable conversation while he's golfing down
21:05
SPEAKER_03: in Louisiana.
21:06
SPEAKER_03: That's what's in it for him.
21:08
SPEAKER_03: It comes down to being just incredibly small as a person,
21:12
SPEAKER_03: even though you've raised your hand to say,
21:14
SPEAKER_03: I'd like to be a U.S.
21:15
SPEAKER_03: senator, a thing that will not be true after this year because he got...
21:20
SPEAKER_03: Primaried by the President of the United States,
21:22
SPEAKER_03: and here he's still carrying water for the President to turn the DOJ
21:26
SPEAKER_03: into his personal legal shop.
21:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, I couldn't respect it less, Rob, and I think neither could you, so...
21:34
SPEAKER_02: We'll keep taking on Cassidy as long as he's doing shit like this.
21:38
SPEAKER_03: Bill Cassidy,
21:39
SPEAKER_03: we're going to be talking about you until you're out of here because,
21:41
SPEAKER_03: man, you are such a lame senator.
21:44
SPEAKER_03: Dr. Bill Cassidy, if you're going to be a doctor, don't be like him.
21:47
SPEAKER_03: All right.
21:48
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
21:49
SPEAKER_03: Big nicotine is all in on pay to play with the Trump administration.
21:52
SPEAKER_03: After approving fruit flavored vapes under the laughable argument
21:56
SPEAKER_03: that it will tamp down on underage usage of e-cigarettes,
22:00
SPEAKER_03: the FDA has now approved new nicotine pouches.
22:03
SPEAKER_03: Flavored like Richberry, Cappuccino, and Autumn Spice.
22:08
SPEAKER_03: Richberry.
22:09
SPEAKER_03: That's really quite a name.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: Richberry nicotine pouches.
22:12
SPEAKER_03: They're also allowing some Zinn nicotine pouches to be marketed as lower risk than cigarettes.
22:17
SPEAKER_03: In response to this and other moves,
22:19
SPEAKER_03: Senator Ron Wyden has opened an investigation into whether the tobacco
22:22
SPEAKER_03: And Kratom Industries' large donations to the campaigns of Trump and RFK Jr.
22:27
SPEAKER_03: are a pattern of pay-to-play quid pro quos to get their products approved.
22:31
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we should investigate it.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure we need an investigation.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: They're obviously quid pro quos.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: Sue me.
22:39
SPEAKER_03: This is so obviously transactional that the nicotine companies are dumping cash into
22:46
SPEAKER_03: the coffers of these folks.
22:48
SPEAKER_03: And then here we go.
22:50
SPEAKER_03: We get Richberry.
22:52
SPEAKER_03: We get Richberry coming to market.
22:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Rob?
22:56
SPEAKER_02: I may be a broken record.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: Richberry, I don't know.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: That just sounds like an MLB reliever from the 1970s with a big mustache.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: Richberry coming in in the seventh inning.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know why that just strikes me as that.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, if Democrats gain control of Congress,
23:10
SPEAKER_02: the White House, all of that, they have so much to do.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: But one of the things I have to do is codify in law what have been norms.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Prior to president Trump being in office and like this pay to play,
23:23
SPEAKER_02: quid pro quo,
23:23
SPEAKER_02: like, like there's some, there's some version of this happen in some ways, right?
23:27
SPEAKER_02: You know,
23:27
SPEAKER_02: you give us some money and yes,
23:28
SPEAKER_02: you get an audience,
23:29
SPEAKER_02: maybe like it is so craven and direct and We are not investigative journalists,
23:35
SPEAKER_02: Miles.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: The folks who help us write the script and what we're talking about,
23:41
SPEAKER_02: we're not doing on the ground, digging into a lot of stuff.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: It is just right there.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: It is like they're tossing us softballs and it feels like,
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Ron Wyden, yes, bless your heart, investigate for sure.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what's going to happen now.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Nothing.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: But like, man,
23:57
SPEAKER_02: when you guys have control,
23:59
SPEAKER_02: like if there's ever something to get rid of the filibuster for to get through,
24:03
SPEAKER_02: it's like a massive package,
24:05
SPEAKER_02: like including that you should not be able to trade stocks if you are
24:08
SPEAKER_02: a sitting member of Congress or the president.
24:10
SPEAKER_02: Or employed by, I don't know, wherever you want to draw the line.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: But shit like this just needs to stop.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's just sad.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: And again, kids are going to suffer.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: We're going to have young people getting addicted to nicotine.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: We're going to have a higher health risk based on all this stuff.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: That's Trump's America.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: That's where we are.
24:29
SPEAKER_03: It's very hard to quit smoking,
24:32
SPEAKER_03: and it's very hard to quit zen pouches and nicotine pouches,
24:36
SPEAKER_03: and you shouldn't make them flavored like cappuccino, so kids want them.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: And no adults,
24:41
SPEAKER_03: I just mean,
24:42
SPEAKER_03: no adults are smoking or pouching rich berry cappuccino or autumn spice.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: It's for no adults.
24:51
SPEAKER_03: No one's doing that.
24:52
SPEAKER_03: So it's obviously a pay to play to get kids to use nicotine.
24:56
SPEAKER_03: It's pretty gross, pretty gross stuff.
24:59
SPEAKER_03: It's, you know, I mean,
25:01
SPEAKER_03: in terms of the deleterious effect on the American population,
25:04
SPEAKER_03: like, it is probably really, really bad.
25:07
SPEAKER_03: It is also seems, it almost seems like a throwback to the 80s.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, the president sort of lives in the 80s.
25:15
SPEAKER_03: It kind of feels like a throwback.
25:16
SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh, I recognize this kind of corruption.
25:20
SPEAKER_03: I get what this is.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: This isn't crypto schemes.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: This is very understandable.
25:27
SPEAKER_03: Old fashioned corruption, almost of another era.
25:31
SPEAKER_03: And so I agree with you.
25:33
SPEAKER_03: I think the Democrats should go hard at this when they get power because it's understandable.
25:39
SPEAKER_03: We're going to pay a lot of money and then we can sell kids our addictive pouches.
25:45
SPEAKER_03: Easy peasy.
25:48
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, all right, Rob, we have a great interview next.
25:51
SPEAKER_03: We obviously follow really closely what happens at HHS and the CDC and
25:54
SPEAKER_03: the ongoing destruction brought by Robert Kennedy Jr.,
25:57
SPEAKER_03: but it's good to hear about what's happening with the people who work at the CDC and
26:02
SPEAKER_03: the perspective of something.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: That's why we have Yolanda Jacobs up next from the AFGE local union that represents
26:09
SPEAKER_03: the people working hard at the CDC.
26:11
SPEAKER_03: Why don't we throw to that now?
26:14
SPEAKER_02: All right.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Paging America, folks.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: I have a really special guest today, Yolanda Jacobs.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: Yolanda is the president of AFGE Local 2883.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: She's a Louisiana native and Army veteran now based in Metro Atlanta.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: She's the president of the local AFGE, like I said, at the CDC.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: She's been actively involved with her union since 2021.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: She's worked at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention since 2004.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: Yolanda, welcome back to Paging America.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me back.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's been about a year.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: A lot has happened since then.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, sadly,
26:48
SPEAKER_02: this past week marked the anniversary of the tragic killing
26:51
SPEAKER_02: of police officer David Rose during the August 8th shooting at the CDC.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: Employees at the CDC organized a memorial, but it really didn't go as planned.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if you could share with folks what happened.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, it did, as so many things do since January 2025.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: It turned into a And egotistical political flogging of federal employees.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: And we've seen that over the last 18 months.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: If there's been nothing else from this administration,
27:21
SPEAKER_00: they have been very consistent in how they feel about their own employees.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Because, I mean, after all, they are our bosses.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: I mean, so Kennedy showed up, I hear, right?
27:35
SPEAKER_02: And is it, A, couple things.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: Has he not been there since the shooting?
27:38
SPEAKER_02: But then second,
27:39
SPEAKER_02: was he aware that there was an event that you all planned
27:41
SPEAKER_02: before he announced he was going to come visit?
27:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't think he really cares whether we had events planned or not.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
27:49
SPEAKER_00: this was his first showing since he appeared and disappeared on campus back
27:54
SPEAKER_00: in August of last year.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: Wow, wow, wow.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, you said the flogging from above.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know if you could share to the extent that you can,
28:04
SPEAKER_02: and we can talk a little later.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: I guess there's an anonymous op-ed from an employee in MedPage today we can chat about.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, any highlights or lowlights from what Kennedy had to say for folks listening?
28:17
SPEAKER_00: Once again, it was, if you were better people, we would treat you better.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: That's what many people walked away from with that event.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: It was like, you basically, you forced me to treat you like this.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: The abusive relationship, I'm laughing, but it continues.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that sounds like classic abuser kind of speak.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, unfortunately, in my job, I've seen many victims of domestic violence.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: And like that is exactly the kind of language I say that somehow they did something
28:49
SPEAKER_02: to deserve that type of abuse.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: It's really terrible.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
28:53
SPEAKER_00: it makes it a lot more difficult to pull out things that come from him
28:59
SPEAKER_00: that we could say, you know, well, this makes sense.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: Let's cut down on, like, say, ultra-processed foods.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: That would be a good thing for a lot of young people.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: But you can't even just say, let's cut down on it.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: And that's the only thing that's available to a lot of people in the areas they live
29:13
SPEAKER_00: because there are food deserts,
29:16
SPEAKER_00: you know, where the closest store is a convenience store, not a grocery store.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Especially when it comes to fresh produce and stuff.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: So once again,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: you're laying the burden on those people to make the changes
29:28
SPEAKER_00: when this is something that's much larger than them.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it seems like,
29:33
SPEAKER_02: certainly RFK Jr., Trump,
29:34
SPEAKER_02: the administration is really chock full of people who are pretty out of touch
29:38
SPEAKER_02: with how regular folks,
29:39
SPEAKER_02: and particularly folks in food desert areas
29:42
SPEAKER_02: and low-income areas have been disenfranchised,
29:45
SPEAKER_02: how they actually live their lives and piece together their budgets on
29:49
SPEAKER_02: a weekly basis.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering,
29:52
SPEAKER_02: did anything about Kennedy's visit,
29:55
SPEAKER_02: did it show that he might be interested in how the year has impacted employees
29:59
SPEAKER_02: at CDC?
30:00
SPEAKER_02: Did he show any compassion for you all and what you might have been dealing with?
30:04
SPEAKER_00: We didn't feel it.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: If it was there, we didn't feel it.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he thought he did.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he thought he did an excellent job.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, the baton was dropped.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: And you had talked to us about the rifts or the reductions in force at CDC last time we chatted.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: Is that still happening?
30:22
SPEAKER_00: There aren't, well, there are some rifts that may be affected.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: We have a few members that are impacted by that and those were the ones
30:30
SPEAKER_00: that they came back and got that they missed in the first net.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: When they just pulled fish from all over the sea, they weren't looking for any one fish.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: Whatever fish got in the net, that's who got rift.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: So they came back and they did another drag with their net and they caught a few more.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: So those people could have a rift affected on them soon.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: But we don't know of any more wholesale rifts.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: But I mean,
30:55
SPEAKER_00: the damage has been done because we've lost thousands of people either through
31:01
SPEAKER_00: the rifts Or they've gone ahead and,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: they feel forced out so they're retiring because they're like,
31:07
SPEAKER_00: I cannot do this anymore.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: And then others are just like, I can take my talents elsewhere.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: You know,
31:12
SPEAKER_00: I did this because I love to do it,
31:13
SPEAKER_00: not for the money,
31:14
SPEAKER_00: because we know, despite the myth, federal employees are not rolling in dough.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: It's just not happening.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: That's why when the shutdowns happened, you had federal employees standing in food bank lines.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Because many of them are living paycheck to paycheck.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: And since raises are not even keeping up with inflation, that has made it even harder.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: During shutdown,
31:34
SPEAKER_00: we had so many members sending us emails asking the union,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: what type of financial assistance can you provide or point me to?
31:44
SPEAKER_00: And when this is happening to, again,
31:48
SPEAKER_00: your employees and you're still trying to pull something out of them,
31:53
SPEAKER_00: When they don't really have much left to give, it's been a disaster.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: It's been a disaster.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for bringing up the shutdown.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: That was 43 days last fall that we followed really closely,
32:07
SPEAKER_02: specifically because of the reason for the shutdown.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: Democrats were demanding an extension of the subsidies for
32:13
SPEAKER_02: the Affordable Care Act insurance,
32:15
SPEAKER_02: Republicans were absolutely dug in that they wouldn't do that.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: Eventually it broke because Democrats,
32:20
SPEAKER_02: at least from the reporting and what we've heard from folks,
32:23
SPEAKER_02: the Democrats involved in the negotiations said,
32:26
SPEAKER_02: we just couldn't handle the pain that was being inflicted.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, did you see anything during that time from sort of above from your bosses,
32:36
SPEAKER_02: you know, RFK Jr.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: or sort of the folks kind of in that layer of administration
32:41
SPEAKER_02: that would indicate any degree of compassion related to that part of the shutdown
32:46
SPEAKER_02: or were they?
32:47
SPEAKER_00: No, we heard nothing from them.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: There wasn't even a resource shared by them.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: They didn't even do the shutdown procedures as they would normally happen during a shutdown.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: So it was just like, again, it was business as usual.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: Go out there, whatever happens to you, that's what happens to you.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: When people get so caught up in what they want, And they ignore the needs of others.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: That becomes very detrimental to those people.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: And since we all serve the American public,
33:18
SPEAKER_00: at the point you stop serving the American public,
33:22
SPEAKER_00: something needs to be done about that.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: And employees really should never be used as bargaining chips during a shutdown.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: There should be some type of legislature in place that prevents that from happening.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: As a part of this event that Kennedy attended over the weekend,
33:42
SPEAKER_02: there was an anonymous CDC employee who wrote an op-ed for MedPage Today,
33:45
SPEAKER_02: and they said, quote,
33:47
SPEAKER_02: I thought the shooting was our low point after months of chaos and destruction
33:50
SPEAKER_02: to our workforce, but we are still sinking.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've shared a bunch here,
33:55
SPEAKER_02: but I don't know if anything else you can share,
33:56
SPEAKER_02: the sorts of things that employees are still dealing with when it comes to
33:59
SPEAKER_02: the administration, just on kind of a daily grind basis.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we have people being attacked from all angles.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Mental health is the poorest I have ever seen it at the agency.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: I've been there a very long time.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got people having really mental breakdowns.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: We lost an employee on campus.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: People with disabilities are really catching it.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: This administration is like, we don't care if you have a disability, take it to the house.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: And this is happening to people with disabilities as well as our veterans.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: Veterans with diagnosed disabilities, they're being denied reasonable accommodations.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: Those who have come under Schedule A where the agency knows that you have
34:46
SPEAKER_00: a disability because you applied for a position.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: That was a Schedule A position.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: They are denying these people reasonable accommodations.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: They're giving out blanket accommodations
34:58
SPEAKER_00: where your accommodation looks exactly like someone else's.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: And when you're applying for a reasonable accommodation,
35:04
SPEAKER_00: It's supposed to be specific to you, individualized.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: But when you're getting responses that's just like, I mean,
35:10
SPEAKER_00: the exact carbon copy of someone else's request for reasonable accommodation,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: it's crazy.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: And then,
35:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:17
SPEAKER_00: we had the time where there were so many of them being told,
35:22
SPEAKER_00: You can't have the accommodation.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: So then they're stuck in a pattern because they file an EEO complaint,
35:28
SPEAKER_00: but EEO complaints can take years to work through the system.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: And because they're trying to decimate EEOC, then that could take even longer.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So what happens in the meantime, these people are forced into a leave without pay status.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: Some of them have been marked AWOL,
35:43
SPEAKER_00: and then disciplinary action has been started because they're being marked AWOL,
35:48
SPEAKER_00: all because they have a disability.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: And they're requesting an accommodation that by federal law,
35:54
SPEAKER_00: they have a right to ask for and request.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that sounds like a violation.
35:58
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's under the Americans with Disabilities Act,
36:00
SPEAKER_02: but are you finding any help or recourse with the National Labor Relations Board?
36:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that seems like a place where something like this could be brought and settled.
36:11
SPEAKER_02: Is that in any way available to you as a leader of the union?
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, you see,
36:17
SPEAKER_00: since they stripped our collective bargaining rights,
36:21
SPEAKER_00: we have to take those employees through those statutory channels like EEO.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: And if there's some prohibited personnel practices happening,
36:30
SPEAKER_00: we can go through like MSPB, whistleblowing, OSC.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: So there are different places we can represent them to,
36:38
SPEAKER_00: but that doesn't help them in the immediate environment.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: And so what happens is when they're...
36:46
SPEAKER_00: They did because of pushback that we gave in the media.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I'm thankful to everyone who put our voice out there when it was happening.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: They did re-implement interim RAs.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: But what happens is once yours is finalized and is likely not to be Providing
37:02
SPEAKER_00: the accommodation that is most effective for you,
37:06
SPEAKER_00: then you are not allowed to request a reconsideration.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: You're told to go straight to EEO.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: So that's where that gray area is now still happening.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: So despite having the interims in place,
37:18
SPEAKER_00: once that person's accommodation has been finalized by the assistant secretary,
37:24
SPEAKER_00: then they're stuck in that gray area because they cannot request reconsideration on
37:29
SPEAKER_00: the same disability, which is nuts.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: You know,
37:32
SPEAKER_00: because your disability could even be aggravated by the fact,
37:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:37
SPEAKER_00: that you were denied an accommodation,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: especially those who deal with some type of,
37:42
SPEAKER_00: you know, mental health condition that could that could happen.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, that could really increase that.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, anything can because stress itself is a killer.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: So just the stress of like, I'm being forced to work.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: I might be someone who's in pain.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you experience pain during driving or even public commuting.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: It could be any gamut of reasons.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: And then when you're forced back into the office like that,
38:07
SPEAKER_00: yeah, it could start to exacerbate those conditions.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: And then you're punished for the exacerbation of your condition.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: The cruelty does not know any bounds, it sounds like.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: And I've never seen so many managers on board with unlawful actions.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: It's astounding.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: The number of people you can get to do things,
38:30
SPEAKER_00: even if it's wrong, as long as it's part of the group think.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: And so like the culture,
38:36
SPEAKER_02: so recently I talked with Dr.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: Dimitri Deskalakis, who,
38:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:40
SPEAKER_02: previously of the CDC,
38:41
SPEAKER_02: I think he and Dr. Dev Howery left when Susan Minaris was fired last year.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: And, and he,
38:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:47
SPEAKER_02: he talked about,
38:47
SPEAKER_02: well, there's still a lot of people I don't know if you could speak to that.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if want to be there, but just want to do the work.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: Came in with the goal of helping their fellow human,
39:11
SPEAKER_02: helping their fellow American, and still want to do that.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you could speak to what it takes someone,
39:16
SPEAKER_02: you and others,
39:18
SPEAKER_02: to stay despite all of this,
39:20
SPEAKER_02: to just stick around and want to be there to actually be helpful.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: I think at this point we're at,
39:27
SPEAKER_00: we can't let them win because if they win,
39:30
SPEAKER_00: this affects us outside of the halls of CDC.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: This affects us in our homes, our communities, everywhere we go.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: So someone has to stick around.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: I guess kind of getting now to looking forward,
39:42
SPEAKER_02: the CDC just had a new director named Dr. Erica Schwartz.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: If you could talk to her directly and maybe you will at some point or have,
39:48
SPEAKER_02: what would you say to her about the people who are there?
39:51
SPEAKER_02: And then are you hopeful that things could change under her leadership?
39:54
SPEAKER_00: I think for one,
39:55
SPEAKER_00: we can have more of them understanding that we're not there just for a paycheck.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: To first get that out of the way, that we're not lazy.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Like I said,
40:04
SPEAKER_00: CDC employees spend countless hours on responses,
40:09
SPEAKER_00: on research, on getting out information that is credible and factual.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: That is what many of us come into the agency for.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: We enjoy our jobs.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: Matter of fact, we love our jobs.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: And anytime we have the opportunity to talk up our jobs, that is something that we do at CDC.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: For them to hold the politicians in charge responsible to start asking
40:33
SPEAKER_00: the hard questions,
40:34
SPEAKER_00: not just letting them throw a line out there,
40:37
SPEAKER_00: have a press secretary throw this line out there and nobody questions it.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: Seeing more people questioning and also being more decisive about who they vote for,
40:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:48
SPEAKER_00: because when you continue to vote in people who are so out of touch with reality,
40:53
SPEAKER_00: you get what we've got.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: And we've got to slop right now.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: And I guess for folks listening, you know, January 20th at noon, 2029, right?
41:04
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully there's a redirection of our federal government and hopefully,
41:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:11
SPEAKER_02: looking at CDC as the crown jewel of public health that it always has been looked at
41:15
SPEAKER_02: and treating it that way.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: But what are, I guess, what are the challenges then?
41:18
SPEAKER_02: Like, can you just turn it back on?
41:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, can we just say, okay, reset, good to go?
41:23
SPEAKER_02: Or like, what does that look like from your perspective?
41:26
SPEAKER_00: I think it's so broken right now, and that was probably the intention.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: That was by design.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: It's so broken right now that it will be hard to piece it all back together again.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: And yes, there are employees there who are more than willing, though, to jump in and to do that.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, at CDC, you become accustomed to joining responses.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: To help bring things back from the brink, whether it's Ebola, measles, whatever it is.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: When Hurricane Katrina happened,
41:56
SPEAKER_00: you're used to going out there and helping bring some normalcy back to things,
42:02
SPEAKER_00: but it's gonna be a really hard road because like I said,
42:06
SPEAKER_00: I think so much of this, we see it as chaos, but it was actually by design.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Even making sure that the unions Did not have the same importance,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: significance within those agencies.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: All of that was by design.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: Well, Yolanda Jacobs,
42:24
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you bringing a dose of reality to us and to listeners and viewers.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: I can't imagine what it's like for your employees under you and for you.
42:34
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you being,
42:36
SPEAKER_02: I guess, brave enough to come Come on this and other places and speak out.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: I understand there is some risk involved with the current administration
42:46
SPEAKER_02: that you are taking when you speak out.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: And I think the folks who elect you to represent them are lucky to have you.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: We're really glad to hear from you.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: And I tell you what,
42:56
SPEAKER_02: here at Paging America,
42:57
SPEAKER_02: and I know the people listening are supportive of folks at the CDC.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: We're going to do our best always to just keep...
43:03
SPEAKER_02: Keep holding the folks' feet to the fire who are the ones doing all this damage.
43:08
SPEAKER_02: And right on with you on the accountability piece,
43:10
SPEAKER_02: that's a big part of kind of what we talk about in all aspects of these folks
43:15
SPEAKER_02: in health policy and certainly in their treatment,
43:17
SPEAKER_02: you all at CDC, that's a big part.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: Glad to talk to you.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for
43:21
SPEAKER_00: having me.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
43:24
SPEAKER_03: And we're back.
43:24
SPEAKER_03: Rob, this is a great interview.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know.
43:27
SPEAKER_02: I just, I think of her,
43:28
SPEAKER_02: probably of all the guests we have,
43:30
SPEAKER_02: like one of the bravest people because,
43:31
SPEAKER_02: you know, she's taking risk, you know, to speak out on behalf of the people.
43:35
SPEAKER_03: And I think there's a reason she's been elected to be their president.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we'll keep on it.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: And as I told her in the interview,
43:42
SPEAKER_02: if there's things that we need to hear,
43:44
SPEAKER_02: folks need to hear, like anytime, anytime, open invitation.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Great.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, with that, I think we'll call it a day.
43:50
SPEAKER_03: Today's episode was written by Chris Savage, Dr.
43:53
SPEAKER_03: Rob Davidson, and me, Miles Baker.
43:55
SPEAKER_03: Paging America,
43:56
SPEAKER_03: The Situation Boom,
43:57
SPEAKER_03: and our On Call segments this week were produced by Peter Ogburn and Chris Savage.
44:02
SPEAKER_03: All shows were edited by Peter Ogburn and April Stewie,
44:04
SPEAKER_03: and our music is by Annette Somerset at Duneflower Productions.
44:07
SPEAKER_03: We would ask,
44:09
SPEAKER_03: if you find the show on Substack,
44:12
SPEAKER_03: If you would consider becoming a paying subscriber,
44:16
SPEAKER_03: we're going to be increasingly having essays behind the paywall.
44:18
SPEAKER_03: And if you want to catch all of our content, go ahead and sign up.
44:23
SPEAKER_03: We'd appreciate that.
44:23
SPEAKER_03: And if you've caught our show on YouTube,
44:26
SPEAKER_03: love for you to hit that subscribe button and help other people find us
44:29
SPEAKER_03: in their feeds.
44:30
SPEAKER_03: So Rob, it was great talking to you.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: We'll catch you next week.
44:32
SPEAKER_03: See you then.