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The survival of Sackboy and Crackdown developer Sumo Digital · The Game Business Show

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SPEAKER_02: The appetite for risk and investment for large,
0:02
SPEAKER_02: big-budget AAA games are the sorts of games that we were doing five,
0:05
SPEAKER_02: six, seven years ago, those 50 million budget games.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: We haven't seen one of those come through the door for a long time.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: We've downsized a lot in the UK.
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SPEAKER_01: Our Pune operations, I don't think we've lost any heads in Pune in the last two years, have we?
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe some attrition,
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SPEAKER_01: but we've not made any redundancies, I say, in India because they're so valuable.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: A lot more of the work that we do no longer qualifies for the tax reliefs in the UK.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to The Game Business Show.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: This week's edition is sponsored by Exola.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: And one of the big topics we've had on The Game Business Show has been this rise
0:44
SPEAKER_00: in developers and publishers selling their games, DLC and add-ons directly to fans.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
0:50
SPEAKER_00: the most Successful PC game studios are no longer relying solely
0:53
SPEAKER_00: on traditional storefronts.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: They're building direct-to-consumer channels to own the relationship
0:57
SPEAKER_00: with their players, and create an additional revenue stream with better margins.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: This approach already works at scale.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Over a thousand PC games sell direct through Exola,
1:06
SPEAKER_00: generating more than a billion dollars in transactions in 2025 alone.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: That sounds pretty good, doesn't it?
1:12
SPEAKER_00: With Exola Publishing Suite,
1:13
SPEAKER_00: studios can launch their own direct sales channel in days,
1:16
SPEAKER_00: not months, using their existing team.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Ultimately,
1:18
SPEAKER_00: the studios that thrive in the future will be the ones
1:20
SPEAKER_00: that build their own storefronts and establish a direct relationship
1:23
SPEAKER_00: with their communities.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: You can find out more on the Exola website.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: They even have an ebook explaining how a hybrid sales model works and what is and isn't allowed.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: You can find a link to that on The Game Business newsletter,
1:34
SPEAKER_00: which went out alongside this episode.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Now, back to our show.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Our interview this week is with Sumo Digital's new CEOs, Gary Dunn and Andy Stewart.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Now, Sumo, it's a work for hire.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: And CoDev Studio.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: But they were perhaps better known than most because it developed three Sonic racing games.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: It made Crackdown 3.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: It took over the Sat Boy and Little Big Panic franchise and made
1:57
SPEAKER_00: the BAFTA winning PS5 launch game, Sat Boy, a big adventure.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: They made big AAA games for big companies.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: It's been quite the power in the UK scene.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: In 2018,
2:07
SPEAKER_00: the company went public and began a spending spree,
2:09
SPEAKER_00: picking up numerous teams including the Chinese Room, Red Kite Games and Lab 42.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: It also opened numerous offices.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: It even set up its own publishing label,
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SPEAKER_00: Secret Mode, which is part of a bigger push into creating wholly owned original IP.
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SPEAKER_00: In 2021, it was acquired by Tencent, all designed to accelerate this.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: But the industry struggles were beginning and that impacted Sumo.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: It abandoned plans to develop its own IP,
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SPEAKER_00: sold off its publishing label, sold off the Chinese room and cut back its team size.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile,
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SPEAKER_00: company founders Carl Cavers and Paul Porter exited the business with Gary
2:41
SPEAKER_00: and Andy's taking over.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Sumo was once one of the UK's most influential video game studios,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's been six years since that BAFTA winning Sat Boy game.
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SPEAKER_00: Sega made its last Sonic racing game itself.
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SPEAKER_00: So where are they now?
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SPEAKER_00: I alongside our producer Richard went over to Sumo's HQ in Sheffield
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SPEAKER_00: to find out exactly that and you might be surprised by what they're thinking
3:02
SPEAKER_00: and how they've adapted to the modern video game industry.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Check it out.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: Hello, Gary.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Hello, Andy.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Hi.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Lovely offices you've got here.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: How are you set up now?
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Do people work from home?
3:12
SPEAKER_01: Is this a remote studio?
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a bit of a blend.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, it's one of a number of studios we have.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Sheffield's is more remote.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Redkart in Leeds is completely in the office.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Ah.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Leamington Studios and Nottingham Studios are also blended.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: So we measure output, not input, is one of our sort of mantras.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: The workflows are very much focused on what works for the teams and what works for
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SPEAKER_01: the customers.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: Last time I spoke to Sumo quite a lot, you just picked up BAFTAs for Sackboy.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: You were making your own games,
3:44
SPEAKER_00: publishing third-party games, part of a $1.2, $1.3 billion acquisition from Tencent.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: We were like heady times, not just for TechSumo, but for the whole industry, obviously.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: You had to cut back, you reduced the team, you refocused your business.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: I'd say lots of companies have had to do this,
4:01
SPEAKER_00: but what specifically, what led you to having to do that?
4:04
SPEAKER_02: It was a great question.
4:05
SPEAKER_02: I think if I go back to when I joined at Sumo, Which was nine years ago now.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: I think around 80% of our revenue was two or three clients, the Microsofts of the world, Sony's.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: And obviously after the Tencent acquisition, when we were bought, it's no secret.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: A lot of large publishers started reining in on what they were spending money on.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: So we had to think differently.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: Where we are today is we've got a much more diverse portfolio of clients.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: We've probably got 30 projects on the go.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: Dozens of clients, really, really huge names.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: We've had to rethink how we go about business development and our partnerships.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: We've had to react to changing player demands,
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SPEAKER_02: so more players are They're still playing video games,
4:55
SPEAKER_02: but they're playing fewer AAA titles.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: There's more concentration there.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: So we focused our strategy now on supporting those evergreen titles from a codev capacity.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: The appetite for risk and investment For large,
5:09
SPEAKER_02: big budget AAA games,
5:11
SPEAKER_02: the sorts of games that we were doing five,
5:14
SPEAKER_02: six, seven years ago, those 50 million budget games.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: We haven't seen one of those come through the door for a long time.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: But what we are seeing is a bit of appetite.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: We have an appetite for that double A space, video games with a 15 million budget.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: We rethink how we're making full games as well and we've got several clients
5:36
SPEAKER_02: and projects on the go in that kind of ballpark.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we've had to kind of rethink a lot about the business model and how we go about it.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: And we've had to shape the business along the way.
5:47
SPEAKER_02: As you rightly point out,
5:48
SPEAKER_02: we're not doing publishing anymore,
5:49
SPEAKER_02: but it doesn't mean we've lost all of that publishing experience and skills
5:54
SPEAKER_02: that we developed during that journey.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: So we always try and bring a publisher mindset to the projects we're working on as well.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've been, our master, if you like, has been working on Top Flight IP.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And our mantra has been, we always want to maximize people's IP.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, we're just, we're using that to our best effect now.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: Because I think in today's investment landscape,
6:19
SPEAKER_01: people are rolling back to their IPs that they know and trust
6:23
SPEAKER_01: and have brought them revenue in.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: And that fits with our expertise.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, we worked well.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, last week,
6:29
SPEAKER_01: I think last night,
6:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know when it was shot,
6:31
SPEAKER_01: but You're speaking to Sheldon Carter at Digital Extremes.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: You know,
6:35
SPEAKER_01: we've got a long relationship working with them
6:37
SPEAKER_01: on Warframe now that's going really well.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
6:40
SPEAKER_01: it's that long-term partnership that we're used to and we're building on to lean
6:44
SPEAKER_01: into more.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Whereas, Andy said five years ago, it was...
6:48
SPEAKER_01: 50 million dollar games, you just don't see an RFP for anything like that anymore.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: It literally does not exist in what we can see.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: But it's about making great games at a lower price point and that also fits
7:01
SPEAKER_01: into our mantra of let's get something great,
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SPEAKER_01: the second to second gameplay great and let's get it into the players hands quickly
7:08
SPEAKER_01: and then let's build from there.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: So that's where we want to take our sort of full game development journey with our clients.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: My plan for that question line-up was to go, hey, what happened?
7:18
SPEAKER_00: And B, who would you say you are now?
7:20
SPEAKER_00: You've skipped me to the second question, so thank you for that.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: So you were these primary developers on these sort
7:24
SPEAKER_00: of big franchise games like Sat Boy, like Crackdown.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Like...
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Sonic Racing going further back.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Then I see Sega's taken Sonic Racing in-house.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: Is that not Sumo anymore?
7:36
SPEAKER_00: That's not really what you're about?
7:40
SPEAKER_01: I think we've got broader.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't think we've stopped doing that.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: We are still making a number of full game experience for partners, including Tencent.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's not something we've stopped doing.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: We've just seen,
7:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:55
SPEAKER_01: The appetite for giving large contracts to third parties diminish over
8:01
SPEAKER_01: the last three to four years.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Is it just because companies are scanning back and focusing in?
8:07
SPEAKER_00: Are they protecting their own talent and their own teams?
8:10
SPEAKER_01: I think that's part of that.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: I think it's all part of, you know, people are risk averse.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: And when you're in a tough market, people are just trying to control things more, I think.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
8:19
SPEAKER_01: we're always there to provide a wraparound service to make sure,
8:24
SPEAKER_01: you know, we maximize the client's IP, you know.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: So, and it's what we've done.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: So many times.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you look at the work we did with Sonic,
8:33
SPEAKER_01: that was all about taking the brand and doing games.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, we did Sega Superstars Tennis, we did Sega Superstars Racing.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: None of it was the little blue fella running.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, they were all incremental revenue streams.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we work really well.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: You know,
8:48
SPEAKER_01: very brand authentic,
8:50
SPEAKER_01: very creative and different, and doing different things with the brand.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's the place we feel strong and, you know, we want to grow again in that area.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: I loved, I helped that my brother was on the team, but I loved the Sackboy game.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was amazing.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: And I would love to see that team do another game of that type,
9:07
SPEAKER_00: whether it's a Sackboy game or another title.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: It would be nice to see some of that, right?
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And we'd love to see that team You know,
9:15
SPEAKER_01: they've been doing a lot of work,
9:17
SPEAKER_01: you know, and most of it, sadly, we can't talk about.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: Some of it you'll see soon.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: No, of course.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
9:23
SPEAKER_01: they are there and available to do work on great IPs,
9:27
SPEAKER_01: and that's where we're leaning into right now.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you'll see something exciting soon.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: I think it might have been you, Andy, that said it.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: I read the Games in the Shop Biz interview you did.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: You talked about possibly even co-funding some of that stuff.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: Is that something that's, you were talking about that at GDC?
9:39
SPEAKER_00: Is that something that's still in the foot?
9:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: As Gary says, we're looking at any opportunity to maximize our partner's IP.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: That's what we do.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: We can do that from a codev capacity.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: We can do that from a full game capacity.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: What we're trying to do is break down barriers to investing
9:58
SPEAKER_02: So first things we've looked at is how we make games.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: Can we make a really compelling experience for cheaper?
10:06
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that isn't enough.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: So actually can Sumo provide some of the funding from a co-funding perspective
10:11
SPEAKER_02: to Make those investment decisions easier for a partner.
10:15
SPEAKER_02: Make sure we're sharing risk and reward.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: We're also using the conversations we're having with our partners.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: There's more appetite for that.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: They want a partner, a development partner with skin in the game.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: So it's certainly conversations we're having at the moment.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: We have some exciting projects underway.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, as Gary says, it's frustrating.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: We can't always tell you about them right now,
10:35
SPEAKER_02: but I don't think you're going to have to wait too long at all
10:39
SPEAKER_02: to see something good out of the team you just mentioned and Sumo here.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: How much of these changes that you've gone through,
10:45
SPEAKER_00: this sort of shift has come from Tencent,
10:47
SPEAKER_00: this strategic focus that you're now making,
10:50
SPEAKER_00: how much that's come from Tencent and how much of that came from Sumo?
10:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're definitely very much masters of our own destiny.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: If you spoke to other Tencent portfolio companies,
11:00
SPEAKER_02: which I know you have, you know that Tencent's model is very much hands-off.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: They let businesses run their own way.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: And that still stands.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: When we made the decision to move away from publishing,
11:11
SPEAKER_02: that was done with Tencent, and we were all aligned on that.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: We weren't able to give Secret Mode the care and investment that it needed.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: You see what's happening at Secret Mode now, and that's great.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: We're delighted to see what's happening over there.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't right for us at that time,
11:30
SPEAKER_02: but that was a decision that we were very much behind,
11:33
SPEAKER_02: and obviously Tencent helped us with that as well.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't going to ask about Secret Mode, what a journey they've been on.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Like when they came out of Sumo, I was genuinely, I know, independent publishing is difficult.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: You need to find a hit.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: And then while they're working on Star Wars, they're opening a studio,
11:47
SPEAKER_02: like they've sort of...
11:48
SPEAKER_02: It's great.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: And we have a great partnership with Secret Mode.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: We do a lot of work for them.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: We're very close.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: We'll always be friends.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: It is fantastic to see what's happening with them,
11:59
SPEAKER_02: and we'd have loved to have done the same thing with them now,
12:02
SPEAKER_02: but it wasn't Sumo's business.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: We're comfortable focusing on what we're best at,
12:09
SPEAKER_02: which is supporting the best AAA IPs out there,
12:15
SPEAKER_02: making new games with our best teams, like the Sackboy team, as you say.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
12:20
SPEAKER_02: that's what Sumo's core is,
12:21
SPEAKER_02: and that's what we're best at, and that's what we'll keep doing.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, focus is the thing.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: I know every company's going through this,
12:27
SPEAKER_00: has gone through this sort of journey of the industry,
12:29
SPEAKER_00: where things were very good,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: everyone's looking to expand,
12:31
SPEAKER_00: and now everyone's looking to focus in on what they do very well in Sumo have.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Historically, this is what Sumo's about.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it makes sense.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Having your own IP,
12:41
SPEAKER_00: being able to work on your own,
12:42
SPEAKER_00: something that's yours,
12:43
SPEAKER_00: and not only is it an exciting thing to do from a creative point of view,
12:46
SPEAKER_00: I know working on other big brands are also exciting,
12:48
SPEAKER_00: but also there's an element of,
12:49
SPEAKER_00: that's got value to it from a business perspective, right?
12:52
SPEAKER_00: If you've got your own brands and your own games,
12:54
SPEAKER_00: and when you're always sort of reliant on other companies,
12:57
SPEAKER_00: you're kind of being buffeted a bit by the winds of the industry,
12:59
SPEAKER_00: which lately has been Maybe not necessarily,
13:03
SPEAKER_00: not as badly this year as in previous years, but lately has been pretty tough.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's a good point,
13:07
SPEAKER_02: but it's a bit of a misconception that we're not doing our own IP still and
13:12
SPEAKER_02: that we're not, you know, doing full games.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: So Sima is definitely still very much in the full game.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: And we are also doing our own IP.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: Again, projects that we can't necessarily talk about.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: What we're not doing is fully funding our own IP.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: And that's the key sort of nuance.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: And that's where co-funding comes in.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: If we can create something, whether it's with a partner Tencent have been.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Hugely supportive of our new IP, um, aspirations.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we've, you know, a number of projects that we've done with them and are underway.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: We're hoping to be able to tell you more soon.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: As Andy said,
14:11
SPEAKER_01: the focus,
14:13
SPEAKER_01: and it's amazing,
14:13
SPEAKER_01: because a lot of people still come up to us at shows and go,
14:16
SPEAKER_01: but you're not doing your own IP.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, we are, we're just not, we're just not the principal financer of it.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: No.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, because that's not the model we've got anymore.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: We partner finance.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: We work for hire, and we can create your IP for you from our creativity from scratch.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: We know we can do it.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: It's the nuance of the funding is not what we're going to lead.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
14:38
SPEAKER_00: you're one of the big UK development teams,
14:42
SPEAKER_00: and it's been a big year for UK-made video games.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: We've got some,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: you know, Forza,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: and we've had 007 First Light a little bit,
14:49
SPEAKER_00: and Lego Batman, and GTA, and Star Wars, and Hell Let Loose.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: How is the UK scene for you?
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, there's been a lot of investment into this scene.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: How's it going for you?
14:58
SPEAKER_02: Well, I still think the UK is a jewel in the crown of global gaming personally.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: We have so much talent here.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: We have so much pedigree.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: We need to do what we can to protect that.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: One of the things actually we're seeing at the moment is A lot more of the work
15:14
SPEAKER_02: that we do no longer qualifies for the tax reliefs in the UK.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Part of our strategy as well as doing full games is
15:23
SPEAKER_02: to support these evergreen titles from a codev capacity That doesn't always qualify
15:28
SPEAKER_02: an existing title with a non-UK based publisher and we're trying to pitch for work
15:35
SPEAKER_02: on those projects and it's not always qualifying for the tax release.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: So I think around 60% of the work we did last year didn't qualify for VJEC.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: That puts us at a huge disadvantage globally.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: So reform to VJEC is definitely something that,
15:52
SPEAKER_02: you know,
15:52
SPEAKER_02: through our industry bodies,
15:54
SPEAKER_02: we need to tackle with the government because as more and more players play fewer
15:58
SPEAKER_02: and fewer titles, it's only going in that direction, arguably.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: And what we need to recognize is,
16:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
16:04
SPEAKER_02: The video games tax relief should support the whole spectrum of video games,
16:08
SPEAKER_02: right down to those indie developers.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: It's right that it's a bigger incentive for them.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: That's something we're very supportive of,
16:17
SPEAKER_02: but also the larger Companies that drive employment in video gaming in
16:22
SPEAKER_02: the UK and the work they're doing,
16:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
16:24
SPEAKER_02: needs the same level of support that they get in Canada,
16:27
SPEAKER_02: where, you know, in Canada, it's completely different.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: You just put, in some states, you can just put your payroll through and get the tax relief.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: In the UK,
16:34
SPEAKER_02: you've got to jump through so many more hoops and you often find
16:37
SPEAKER_02: that what you're doing doesn't qualify.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess as industry becomes more globalized and game development is more globalized,
16:43
SPEAKER_00: that's going to become more of an issue.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: It's definitely something that we are speaking to government with and
16:49
SPEAKER_02: the industry bodies are and we speak to them regularly.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: So that would be the single biggest way to continue to support UK Gaming.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Is it true that you've got like a team or you have a way of sort
17:01
SPEAKER_00: of identifying dormant IPs that
17:03
SPEAKER_01: you can pitch to people?
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: So we've been looking in the last few months at a whole lot.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: We get so much data through our tools that we've had because remember we were a publisher.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: So we have a lot of market data,
17:16
SPEAKER_01: and we've used that to start analyzing which IPs we should actively go
17:21
SPEAKER_01: and proactively pitch for.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: So there's a whole package of work that we're doing now,
17:25
SPEAKER_01: so what we're actually looking for is to be able to analyze an IP, say, right,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: this is an IP that's done these unit sales over the past,
17:36
SPEAKER_01: there's no known development for it, yet It interfaces with our excellence.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, horror, family, platforming, adventure.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: And where we can see that intersection, we're happy to co-fund.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: You know,
17:50
SPEAKER_01: we're happy to do the hard work to create that commercially viable win-win proposal
17:57
SPEAKER_01: for the publisher that we'll do.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: We'll take that to them and say,
18:00
SPEAKER_01: we believe we can both make this much money through this dormant IP.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: We're prepared to put this much skin in the game.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: If you join us, we're both aligned.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: And we believe we can make a great commercial outcome for both of us.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: How has the departure of Carl and some of the other leaders of Sumo changed things?
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Has it changed things?
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Has it changed things?
18:21
SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question, isn't it?
18:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: I suppose it is.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Andy and I are two different individuals to Carl and Paul.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've both known them 10 years.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: I've known them 20.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: They're friends as well as colleagues and bosses.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't think the ethos in Sumo has changed A lot.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: We've evolved.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: We haven't had a revolution,
18:44
SPEAKER_01: but we have evolved to meet the changing needs of the marketplace,
18:48
SPEAKER_01: I think is the best way to say.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I look back on the last year and I think,
18:52
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:53
SPEAKER_02: as you say,
18:54
SPEAKER_02: the way that we treat our people hasn't changed, that,
18:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:57
SPEAKER_02: our fundamentals of our cultural identity hasn't changed,
19:00
SPEAKER_02: but the way we go about business, I think we have changed quite a lot.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: You know, we've had We have to react to what the market is.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: The market is not the same place as it was three years ago.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: So I think a lot of what we do under the hood has improved.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: As Gary said, it's not fundamentally changed Of course, but it's certainly improved.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: The last year has been a real journey,
19:25
SPEAKER_02: but certainly in the last six months,
19:26
SPEAKER_02: we've seen real fruits of the changes that Gary and I have put in place and
19:31
SPEAKER_02: the conversations we're having with our partners now and some of the projects
19:36
SPEAKER_02: that we've recently onboarded, again, we're desperate to tell you about them.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: And in the next few years, we will tell you about them, I'm sure.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: But we have new partners working with Sumo that are Genre leaders in what they do
19:50
SPEAKER_02: and Sumo is now supporting their games for them and their partners
19:53
SPEAKER_02: that we've never worked with before.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: You say 30?
19:57
SPEAKER_02: We've got about 30 projects on the go.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: We used to have, well, Sheffield as a studio used to have two or three.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: Other studios more, depending on the model.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so I'd say around 30 projects on the go at the moment of all different sizes.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: And we also have our business in Gateshead,
20:15
SPEAKER_02: Atomhawk, which obviously has smaller projects as well.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: So they've got their own set of 20, 30 projects as well.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: But that's a slightly different model.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: They're a fantastic creative art house.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: in terms of game development,
20:27
SPEAKER_02: and it could be a small You know,
20:29
SPEAKER_02: engineering project,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: or it could be a full game project that spans two or three years.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: We do it all.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: We have genre specialist pods across the business as well, but we also work across platform.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: And I know you've had on your show some of the cloud platforms.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, lately, yeah.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, we've got amazing projects going on with some of them.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: Again, I won't name them,
20:48
SPEAKER_02: but there's only a few of them, so you'll probably figure out who some of them are.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: But we're working across all platforms as well, and that's what Sumo's good at.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: We do the difficult really well,
20:58
SPEAKER_02: and our clients come to us when they've got a challenging project and they want help
21:03
SPEAKER_02: from someone like Sumo.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: I guess because you have all these different clients,
21:06
SPEAKER_00: you have to be on the Quite on the cutting edge,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: you have to sort of,
21:10
SPEAKER_00: imagine sometimes they go to you, can you make a streaming game?
21:12
SPEAKER_00: And you go, yeah, I'm sure we can.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean,
21:15
SPEAKER_01: a great example of this is when Arm,
21:17
SPEAKER_01: about a year and a half ago,
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Arm came to us and said,
21:19
SPEAKER_01: we've got this great neural AI graphics chip We're going to launch at the back end
21:23
SPEAKER_01: of 26.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: We've never done it before, but we want to launch with a game.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: We don't even know where, you know, we're not game makers.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: We need to help us.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: This technology doesn't really exit.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: We're making it over the next 18 months.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: It's on a road map.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, we're Unreal Gold partners, we're experts, and it was tough.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: You know,
21:44
SPEAKER_01: we're making a game for a phone that we started making this game in the beginning
21:49
SPEAKER_01: of 2025.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: The phone's not out yet.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: I think it's launched in Shanghai in next month.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's public now.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: We can talk about it.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Neural Dawn is groundbreaking.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: You know,
22:02
SPEAKER_01: Megalights on mobile,
22:03
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't supposed to be You know,
22:06
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't supposed to be possible,
22:07
SPEAKER_01: the sort of graphical fidelity that we're seeing,
22:09
SPEAKER_01: and the technology we've employed is great,
22:12
SPEAKER_01: and it's been great to partner with them,
22:14
SPEAKER_01: but that's,
22:15
SPEAKER_01: Andy used the phrase,
22:15
SPEAKER_01: we do the difficult,
22:16
SPEAKER_01: but that's one of the things we're known for,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: because that's not new,
22:19
SPEAKER_01: because we're there,
22:21
SPEAKER_01: you know, we did,
22:22
SPEAKER_01: going back further,
22:23
SPEAKER_01: we did Kinect Sports on Kinect for Microsoft,
22:25
SPEAKER_01: and that was sort of,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Can you try and do something with this camera that's entertaining, please?
22:31
SPEAKER_00: The story you were telling me before you were even here when it was working with,
22:35
SPEAKER_00: was it, Sumo on the football game and Xbox Live.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, of the Codemasters.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And that was a similar story where you were saying, we can't do it.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: And then it was Xbox that was saying to you, but these folks might be
22:48
SPEAKER_01: able to.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: And they did.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: And we've done that.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: We've got a history of doing that.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: And it's...
22:54
SPEAKER_01: We love a challenge.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: We love, you know, we've done numerous launch titles.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: Sackboy was a,
22:59
SPEAKER_01: was a launch title on PlayStation 5, which we delivered on time in COVID.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: You know,
23:03
SPEAKER_01: a lot of time at that point,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: things were falling out of that launch slate, you know, very quickly.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
23:09
SPEAKER_01: we weren't,
23:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:10
SPEAKER_01: we were working from home and we were determined to deliver
23:12
SPEAKER_01: and we did something we're really proud of under pretty exceptional circumstances.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what One of our strengths is that high-quality reliability
23:23
SPEAKER_01: that I think now plays into where a lot of publishers need to be.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: They need someone that can deliver that quality and know they're gonna get it,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: because it's all right going...
23:36
SPEAKER_01: There's a bit of a race to the bottom in the development industry at the moment.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's people undercutting you.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: You know,
23:42
SPEAKER_01: we see a lot of stories where people have gone for the cheaper option,
23:45
SPEAKER_01: but actually it's either been really late or it's never seen the light of day.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: We've had people come back to us and go, You know that thing that you were too expensive for?
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, could you please now rebid?
23:56
SPEAKER_00: I was going to ask about this because obviously it's cheaper to outsource
23:59
SPEAKER_00: to Eastern Europe, I guess, and certain Asian territories and things like that.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: And obviously you're doing this, I mean,
24:05
SPEAKER_00: Sheffield's not the most expensive place in the world,
24:07
SPEAKER_00: but it's, it's,
24:08
SPEAKER_00: you are,
24:09
SPEAKER_00: it's obviously,
24:09
SPEAKER_00: it's not,
24:09
SPEAKER_00: it's not California,
24:11
SPEAKER_00: but it's,
24:11
SPEAKER_00: it's, it's probably pricier to make games here than it is in other markets.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: You may have just answered my question, but how are you reacting to that?
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, don't forget, Sumo's second oldest studio is our Pune studio.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: It's 20 years old next year.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: It's 2007 we launched Pune.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: So our relationship with them, they're literally part of our fabric.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: They're not a second thought.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: They're not an outsourcer.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: They're integrated into our teams and our developers
24:40
SPEAKER_01: in Pune sit alongside our UK-based developers as absolute equals and do
24:46
SPEAKER_01: the same workflows, the same production methodologies.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: So that's our model,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: and we find it useful and we've downsized a lot In the UK,
24:57
SPEAKER_01: our Pune operations,
24:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't think we've lost any heads in Pune in the last two years, have we?
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Maybe some attrition,
25:03
SPEAKER_01: but not,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: you know, we've not made any redundancies in India because they're so valuable.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, low-cost geo is part of staying competitive.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: I was just going to add also about how we make games.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: We approach games in a different way than we used to.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Keeping the development team lean until you've found the fun.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: Not scaling up too big too quickly.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: That's another thing I know a lot of people are talking about and we've been doing
25:31
SPEAKER_02: that as well.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: What we're not seeing at the moment is,
25:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:36
SPEAKER_02: go back 18 months ago,
25:38
SPEAKER_02: we were being asked to compete and race to the bottom on price.
25:41
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we tried to hold on nerve with that and we were largely successful with it.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: But nowadays we're seeing a lot less of that.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: I think A,
25:50
SPEAKER_02: because I guess we've become cheaper and more agile and done what we need to do,
25:54
SPEAKER_02: but also I think As Gary says,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: we've had,
25:57
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:58
SPEAKER_02: clients come back to us and gone,
25:59
SPEAKER_02: yeah, okay, that project that we went cheap with didn't work out.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: So we're now,
26:03
SPEAKER_02: I think we're always trying as Sumo,
26:06
SPEAKER_02: hold our value, you know, we can do things others can't do.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, you come to Sumo, Well, you know, you get a job well done.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: Gary always tells me we've got 99.9% milestones delivered on time, you know, to scope.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: We offer that level of certainty.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: We offer, you know, we call it the sumo guarantee.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: And I know everyone has a guarantee in their contracts.
26:27
SPEAKER_02: We promise we'll do what we say we do, but we mean it and we actually do it.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's not everybody here.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: Who's responsible for the 0.1% then?
26:37
SPEAKER_01: We've got a board pack that we go through and it's one of the Tencent metrics
26:41
SPEAKER_01: that KPIs is that metric.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: And actually this month we looked at the board pack and 62 milestones delivered
26:49
SPEAKER_01: and 62 milestones accepted.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: And we looked at them on time and delivered on time.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: So it's actually 100% this month for the first time.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: It normally goes to about 98, but yeah, it was 100% this time, so no one.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: The point is,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: we're super proud of the people we've got working for us and the talent
27:07
SPEAKER_01: that they bring to the industry.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: And we're super excited what we've got to do going forward.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's what we were talking about, Andy, before we were chatting.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: If you want an incredible platform game, for instance, there aren't that many.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: You could probably outsource it to somewhere else, but they're here, right?
27:23
SPEAKER_00: And so it's...
27:24
SPEAKER_00: In an artistic,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: talent-based industry,
27:26
SPEAKER_00: if you can go cheap in how competitive the marketplace is,
27:30
SPEAKER_00: you really want to go with the best that you can afford, right?
27:33
SPEAKER_00: And so there's that element to it, I guess.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, I keep hearing that people are leaning on outsource more But is that actually true?
27:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to work this out for some of the answers you've been giving me.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Or are they shrinking external development?
27:44
SPEAKER_00: Seems to me like there's a bit of both going on.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Is that fair?
27:48
SPEAKER_02: I think what we are seeing is our partners are now being held to smaller teams in-house.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: So that is an opportunity for an outsourcer like Sumo because we can provide
28:01
SPEAKER_02: the scale So there
28:06
SPEAKER_02: definitely is an opportunity for outsourcers.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: It's not to say that,
28:11
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:11
SPEAKER_02: the outsourcing world is easier or growing,
28:14
SPEAKER_02: particularly in the West, because obviously we are competing with lower costs.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: We've got to keep our team to 50 people,
28:19
SPEAKER_02: but we want you to come on this journey with us and maybe we'll take 10 people
28:22
SPEAKER_02: to start with, but we might grow to 200
28:33
SPEAKER_02: The Game takes off,
28:33
SPEAKER_02: but all that growth will come from Sumo because we want to keep
28:37
SPEAKER_02: that agile lean model.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: And that's what Sumo can do.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: You know,
28:41
SPEAKER_02: we're small enough that we can provide that kind of boutique white glove service,
28:45
SPEAKER_02: but we're big enough that we can scale with your project as well.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of where we see Sumo sitting in the world.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Is AI a threat to you in the sense that,
28:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:55
SPEAKER_00: maybe they don't sign developers to do quite so much outsourcing
28:58
SPEAKER_00: because they've got tools and tech that can do some of it for them?
29:01
SPEAKER_02: I think at the moment we're seeing AI is very much an opportunity for us,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: in terms of the projects that we've got as well,
29:08
SPEAKER_02: you know, we'll always be, you know, partner led in terms of how we approach AI.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: So we have some partners that tell us No AI in this project at all.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: And that's fine.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: We do that.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: We have some partners that will say,
29:22
SPEAKER_02: look, we want you to explore AI with us and tell us what's possible.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: So they're almost looking at external development and saying,
29:29
SPEAKER_02: we don't have all the answers on AI.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: I guess nobody does right now, but we want you to tell us what you think.
29:34
SPEAKER_02: So we have some projects where we're going through some really Vanguard kind
29:39
SPEAKER_02: of explorations with their partners on their projects to try and get a project
29:43
SPEAKER_02: to deliver that compelling gaming experience for players.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: You must have a unique perspective on that kind of thing because we're working
29:49
SPEAKER_00: on 30 different projects.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if there's 30 different clients.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: I tend to ask,
29:53
SPEAKER_00: this is my final question,
29:54
SPEAKER_01: but we'll see if something spins out of it,
29:55
SPEAKER_01: but where would you like to be in five years?
29:58
SPEAKER_01: I'd like to see the fruits of our own IP, you know, bearing that fruit.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: So having some evergreen games of our own.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: I would like to fuse that experience.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: We see it's a catalog of the premium partners throughout the world and what we want
30:14
SPEAKER_01: to do is have this virtuous circle whereby we're folding that experience back
30:19
SPEAKER_01: into what we do and we're then pushing that experience back out to our partners.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: And I just want to see it grow,
30:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:26
SPEAKER_01: and I would like to see us being still at the bleeding edge of development.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: I think we've done,
30:30
SPEAKER_01: you know, we want to continue our Our trap line is create, innovate, support.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: And I want to be pushing forward, or we want to be pushing forward on all of those areas.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: But in innovation, I'm excited by what we're doing.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: It's a great enabler.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: We want to be human-centric, AI-enabled game developers.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: And we're starting to see some real fruits of that.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: We started a great presentation from...
30:55
SPEAKER_01: We formed a technology leadership group in Sumo earlier this year.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: We didn't want to have a single person responsible for it.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: We want, obviously, we're multi-site, we're multi-studio.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: We wanted to have a collective of people sharing The knowledge and sharing the focus
31:15
SPEAKER_01: of technology and of which AI forms a core part at the moment.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: And we're starting to see some really exciting things, you know.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: The example I was going to give was,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:25
SPEAKER_01: on game team,
31:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:26
SPEAKER_01: you've always got tools engineers,
31:28
SPEAKER_01: but there's always a whole bunch of people waiting For that tool to be built
31:33
SPEAKER_01: that unleashes the game team.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, we built tools in an afternoon with AI's assistance.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: It would take a week.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: It's still a tools engineer setting it up and getting it up,
31:45
SPEAKER_01: but you've managed to do it quickly and unblock the rest of the dev team.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: So what you're getting, you're getting more bang for your buck.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: You're getting your developers to do more development,
31:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:54
SPEAKER_01: because you're unleashing their creativity by unblocking some things that used
31:58
SPEAKER_01: to take a lot further.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
32:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited about being able to do that because,
32:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:04
SPEAKER_01: we talked earlier about wanting to get great game experiences
32:07
SPEAKER_01: into players' hands quickly and grow them, and I think that's how we do it.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: So is it a speed thing rather than a quality thing?
32:15
SPEAKER_00: I know some people,
32:16
SPEAKER_00: I talked about AI, the question is, is it going to speed up the making of games?
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Or are you just going to be able to do more?
32:22
SPEAKER_01: I think it depends what sort of segment of the marketplace.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: I think if you're making friend slop games and try and turn loads of them out quick,
32:29
SPEAKER_01: then you're probably going to want to do it more for quicker.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, certainly for us, it's about enabling us to do More iterations.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: On one of our projects,
32:41
SPEAKER_01: we used it in the early part of the process to do some testing in concepts.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: It just allowed us,
32:47
SPEAKER_01: we didn't use AI art,
32:50
SPEAKER_01: but we used AI to turbocharge the process to give more iteration.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: It closed our iteration loop so we had more opportunity And if that can be unlocked
33:01
SPEAKER_01: by AI, then I'm all for it.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Interestingly, I wasn't actually asking
33:27
SPEAKER_01: about AI.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: No.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Andy, would you give... Five years.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm going to actually say,
33:34
SPEAKER_02: because I don't want to wait five years for this stuff,
33:36
SPEAKER_02: so let's say two years from now,
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Some of the partnerships we've recently onboarded,
33:43
SPEAKER_02: real evergreen genre leading titles.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: I want to see Sumo's involvement.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: We want to be able to tell the world about those things in the same way we can talk
33:52
SPEAKER_02: about our partnership with Digital Extremes on Warframe.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: So I'd like to see two or three of those grow to that sort of level of success.
34:00
SPEAKER_02: That's on the co-dev side.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: In terms of full games,
34:05
SPEAKER_02: Over the next two years,
34:06
SPEAKER_02: I can think of four or five,
34:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
34:09
SPEAKER_02: full games across different platforms that you're going to see coming out
34:12
SPEAKER_02: where Sumo is the developer.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: And I also,
34:16
SPEAKER_02: like a lot of people,
34:17
SPEAKER_02: are desperate to see what the Texas Chainsaw Massacre team are going to do next.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: And you're not going to have to wait too long for that.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: And what the Sackboy team is going to have to do next.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: And again, you're not going to have to wait five years for that.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: So two to three years time, you know, that's where I want the business to be.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a few more BAFTAs.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe a few more BAFTAs.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: I was asked one final question, which is how ambitious are you being with your own IP?
34:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how is this, what are we talking about here, sort of AA level?
34:41
SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me?
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Can you hint?
34:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's, we, It's probably double A.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: It's not the 100, 200 million dollar game.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: I think those are dying out.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
34:57
SPEAKER_02: We have to be cheaper.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: Ultimately, we're trying to make games for under 50 million.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying Every game in our NIP will be that level, but that's what we're targeting.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: And as Gary says, it's that virtuous loop.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: So if we make the next game and it might cost us 5 million, let's expand for 10 million.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: It's a stepping stone.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: And process as well.
35:19
SPEAKER_02: And it does depend on the team.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: So there is a bigger game out there as well that we're going to get in people's hands.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: So it's all of the above really.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: It's what we talk, I've talked, you listen to the show, I've talked about it a few times.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: I did wonder if the sort of drive to these clear obscure style 30, 40, 50 million dollar games.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: Some of them will stay at that level,
35:37
SPEAKER_00: their studio will go,
35:37
SPEAKER_00: I want to stay a small studio, I want to stay making games of that size.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: But some of them might go, oh, we've got a hit, we've got an IP now, we can go a bit bigger.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's an okay journey to go on in this industry.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: Completely agree.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: And Sumo can help you with it.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, Gary.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Andy, for joining us.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: That's it for today's episode of The Game Business Show.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: Thank you to Andy and Gary for inviting us up to Sheffield.
36:02
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36:02
SPEAKER_00: of course,
36:03
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36:07
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36:11
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36:16
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36:18
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36:22
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36:26
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36:29
SPEAKER_00: But that's it for me today.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, thank you for tuning in.