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Gang of Three: Implosion in Pittsburgh · The Orange and Brown Report

• 0:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the evening proud fans had welcomed to the game of three.
• 0:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So named because there are three of us.
• 0:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Once again, welcome to them as we look how you're doing, buddy.
• 0:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: Very good, sir.
• 0:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: How about yourself?
• 0:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am doing fine.
• 0:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing fine.
• 0:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Pete, are you upbeat and happy?
• 0:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, let's go with that.
• 0:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I suspected you were not per usual.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to lead off the show with some numbers that are relevant to today's discussion.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: One number is 200.
• 0:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a number of rushing yards allowed by the Cleveland Brown.
• 0:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: 6.1 average a carry.
• 0:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Another number is eight as an eight sacs.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Watson now has an NFL high 33 sacs.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: that he's taken according to the AP.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: 65 to 13, those are two numbers, and those are how badly the bronze had been outscored in the first quarter of this season, which is atrocious.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And 23, the number of regular season losses in Pittsburgh since the last victory, of course, a well-known number.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the important numbers, the most important
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: the Pittsburgh Steelers stop the Cleveland Browns, effectively shutting up the team.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're gonna talk about that.
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna try to isolate some positives if we possibly can.
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, we're gonna have to talk about what happened on Saturday.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess the biggest thing that happened on Saturday is that the run defense broke
• 1:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: uh... you wrote about it uh... in uh... your column munken is right browns earned this loss it was a team effort uh... basically uh... your thesis uh... if i'm not incorrect is that the browns defended most of what his bird did but simply could not stop the trap run game uh... is that a good synopsis
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: As far as a run defense goes, yes, like outside zone, so many other stuff they did, they were good.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: They got absolutely murdered by the trap.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's because that is the perfect answer to what the Browns have defensively.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have an attacking front.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are some differences between the Jim Schwarzled version of this defense versus the Mike Rittenberg version of this defense.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: The main reason is that the Chip Schwartz version had miles gear on it, and like Greg's doesn't.
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: As a result, the defensive tackles could be maybe slightly more patient or run oriented because miles gear was their main pass rest bread.
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, he had 23 sex.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: They also lost electric for the season.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: He was another five and a half.
• 3:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: When teams gasped the bronze defensively, it was usually because they were taking advantage of Garrett being the one who was over aggressive and running at that.
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or when the opposite end would crash, they'd run outside.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now without that, they're relying more heavily on defensive tackles to do the past rushing.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as a result, the defensive tackles are more incentive to die as the Uber aggressive because they're the ones doing the rushing.
• 3:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that makes it easier
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's irritating that, in back to back weeks, the Titans and the Steelers killed them on traps.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that Mike Rundberg and his coaching staff and these players are gonna have to adjust to and find answers that don't involve changing the entire defensive scheme and now asking these guys you've said, get off the ball, be aggressive and attack to suddenly do something to get ready.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
• 4:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're gonna have to come up with some answers that allow them to
• 4:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh, maintain that while having answered this.
• 4:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some of this may just be simply a matter of mugging up fronts and putting more numbers up front, which the bronze have done, which at least dissuades the opponent from running traps.
• 4:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there are some other things they could do to get a little more technical, but regardless of what it is, they got to figure out their answers because at at this point, if you're the New Orleans Saints, you're going to go into this game,
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: This coming week or the Houston Texans to follow me can you go we're going to run the trap endlessly or wham which is you know basically trap concepts except the skill players doing the the kick out block as opposed to alignment so that is where this team is they have there have been very good at being able to deal with some of these issues and take away a lot of things opponents are doing but they found that this is their vulnerability they have to address
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the things that I'm hearing a lot of,
• 5:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: on forums, a little bit on social media, et cetera, et cetera, Joe, is pointing the finger at Mike Rutenberg as the, as the, as the cause of this run game issue, I think Pete just explained very well how the change in personnel sort of changes the ability to run the Jim Schwarz scheme.
• 5:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, in European, it should Rutenberg have seen this coming, should
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, look, it's tough to really take anything positive out of what happened on Sunday.
• 5:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm not ready to blame Routenberg for this.
• 6:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not, look, the blame falls at the players.
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: They're so bang up right now.
• 6:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: They just mourn and it's not mad.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like, oh, if he's helping up to play, then he's the 87 that he was before the hurt.
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: And when you're hurt in the NFL, outside of the very small percentage of superhuman freak-as-away players out there, when you're hurt, you're not the same.
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're a Mason Graham and you're you're pretty damn good when you're healthy what you're not pretty damn good when you're hurt, you know, and the same thing with my calls coming off the injury are linebackers, man.
• 6:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Carson's West and just getting scraped off the turf after every play.
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: He looks like he's down to one arm and he's on a bad ankle.
• 6:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just I feel like Sunday was such a perfect storm to absolutely embarrass the Browns and catch us.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: with a opponent that has owned us in that building for years.
• 7:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And in that is banged up, a team that is young, a team that is not built to do what they did against Tennessee against a good team.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm I'm all for, you know, you know, the, obviously, to Pete's point, the trap killed him, the 200, right, a 160 rushing yards at half, right, unbelievable.
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then the breakdown at the end of the first half for the touchdown, it's, it's inexcusable stuff.
• 7:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: But it brings me back to my point that like I think the Browns are every bit a play off contending team because we have a we have a very easy schedule.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: We play a lot of bad football teams.
• 7:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: The second we step up in class.
• 7:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: We play a good veteran strong football team.
• 7:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to happen.
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then we open up with, you know, the two turnovers on the opening drives and it's just you can't do that and you can't do that in Pittsburgh, you can't do that against good football teams and every single problem that this team has gets put under a microscope when you're losing like that on the road against the team that's owned us for 23 years, like, yes, exactly, but yeah, it's 23 years of just this crap on fan shoulders and we treat we treat the team like they've been here all 23 years.
• 8:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is collective blame.
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: The coaching staff deserves as much as players do.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: The issue you run into is tradeoffs.
• 8:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you are doing this two-stop trap, what are you giving up?
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, given what we've seen for two weeks, you have to do something because it's not working.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: But where I sort of come out on this is,
• 8:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: As much as the Browns were five and two and out five and three and we said there go oh man the Browns are like there's a lot of people who want to believe in this The Browns are sort of there they aren't and a lot of this season is figuring out the answers what they have to do what they've got to get right and You know come up with a prescription of players they're going to need to sort of fill the rest of this roster out and get what dealt with what else they need certainly that's been evident on the defensive side of all
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but they've got, that's the challenge.
• 9:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, I want to see what rooten bird comes up with because the thing I will say about rooten bird is he's gotten a ton of praise deservedly for being able to sort of adjust particularly in the passing game to what opponents are doing and then coming over the answers to sort of stop them.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now that's his background.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: now he has not been he was the passing game coordinator all this other stuff now the challenges can he now do the same thing as up front in the running game.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Jim Schwartz was sort of the opposite.
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Jim Schwarz was better at dealing with the run stuff, but we'd get gashed in the passing game stuff.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm curious to see what they come up with and there are some structural issues that are coming to lay that are ultimately going to have to get addressed and probably won't get addressed in the way they need to until after this season.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the things I heard, you know, a couple of times it's been out there again in form comments.
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure on sports radio and all that nonsense is about the Browns tackling now they got one corner back who's got a very difficult time tackling because he's got a messed up hand.
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there were comments in the live stream about things like, oh, the Browns are, you know, they're quitting.
• 10:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're not, you know, making the tackle.
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you believe any of that, Joe, or is this mostly a schematic issue?
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was a wrong place, wrong time issue.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think we came out flat and I think
• 10:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: We got our asses kick, man.
• 11:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's really just, that's, that's the end of it.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: We've seen it in Pittsburgh a thousand times.
• 11:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: We got controlled on both sides of the ball.
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like it was, you know, it's,
• 11:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's it's frustrating because I'm just so sick of Pittsburgh being the culprit.
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like every every game in Pittsburgh every season is my least favorite game of the year.
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just yeah, it's just how it is.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it everything all the stars aligned perfectly for the Steelers on this day.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: Between the offensive line that being able to protect the defense not stopping anything.
• 11:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was just it was a mess.
• 11:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: start to finish and it's so hard to objectively look at it because it's so fresh in our minds, but they're still five and three, they just they need to get healthy, they need the buy in the worst way possible.
• 11:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I tried in the morning bloviation to
• 11:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: let a ray of sunshine in.
• 11:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is still a young team and it's kind of predictable that a young, mouthy, unexpected, unexpectedly good team gets swamped by a veteran squad that's been looking forward to the game for four weeks, you know, playing it.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, right?
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Almost predictable, although I failed to predict it entirely.
• 12:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Pete,
• 12:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I understand basically what a trap is.
• 12:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe you've got a couple of offensive linemen that crawl out and try to take on linebackers to open up the middle of the line.
• 12:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Could you just for people like me who are not intimately familiar with X's and O's?
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Explain quickly what a trap is in how teams can scheme to stop it.
• 12:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Basic way I look at a trap is essentially, let's look at the.
• 12:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's look at a front side guard front side tackle and the backside guard simplest way to do this.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Frontside guard and frontside tackle are going to release immediately at the second level.
• 13:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to block anyone on the defensive line.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: They are going to go right to the linebackers and try to get to that second level.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, the backside guard in this case is going to kick out, depending on either aligned, it's going to kick out the depending on your rules, your defense is probably going to
• 13:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: maybe a 2i, or if that guy is lined up at like a nose, he's gonna kick out the end.
• 13:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Either way, they are kicking out the guys who are unblocked.
• 13:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you are defensive linemen and these offensive linemen are letting you pass and you're flying up the field, that kick out block is now taking you out.
• 13:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you take out that three tech, you're getting basically him and the defensive end.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, those offensive linemen that have released the second level are already on your linebackers.
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And trap hits fast enough that the rest of your defensive line is probably already past them and unable to impact the play it so now the running back is already gaining yards he's got two blocks to sort of give me choice on how he wants to play it and if there's not somebody there to fix it it gives it gives the opportunity to just continue to gash them from that standpoint.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's a number of ways to do this.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can run what amounts to be influence traps, the basic trap I described, just some other things.
• 14:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the bottom line is you are using the defense aggression against them, and if they are prepared for it, or they're doing something to sort of counter it, they are going to find themselves in a really bad situation, and be very outnumbered at the second level, and then the third level, which is what we saw against the Steelers.
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you're taking a martial arts type technique of using the opponent's aggression against them and using the momentum against them, how do you teach your linebackers?
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you teach your defensive line to handle spot and then handle this particular scheme?
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the problem is like, that goes against the pros one, the way the pros one will have their defensive line.
• 15:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: They get these situations where they're super spread out.
• 15:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you have your standard two linebackers at the second level, which the pros are akin to do.
• 15:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's begging, given what the pros do, that's sort of begging them to get trapped.
• 15:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: They can do a number of different things to try to address this.
• 15:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: They can crash and end or one or both ends.
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is what Jim Schwarz like to do.
• 15:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is what also led to occasionally seeing plays going outside and suddenly being like there's nobody to contain that play because you took that.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because if the end hits the trap right, you're just going to kill the block, carry in the backfield.
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can also pinch.
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can do some slanting stuff.
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Linebackers are basically blown and let's they're going to get there so fast that they can be the line based on their alignment.
• 16:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're basically counting on numbers at that point.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can mug the situation and try to, again, change the angles in the geometry.
• 16:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: But
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are some things you can do with the events of line.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious to see if Mike Rittenberg's going on necessarily get there.
• 16:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But because you, again, the trick you don't want to get into is now saying, all right, Malik, all right, Mike, all junior, all right, Mason Graham, we want you to slow down and sort of read and react because you haven't been coaching to do that.
• 16:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point,
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: At that point now you're saying go ahead and just pass on us because now we're going to go past rush and you know it's man coverage fine and the defensive line has been the engine that's made this defense go so you're now creating more problems everywhere else so.
• 17:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Finding a way to make your scheme to fend trap without asking to do completely different things is tricky.
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that, uh, Joe, that to me does not sound like something that can be fixed in a week.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, clearly it's not because what Polar did and then, uh, Warren did to them the week after.
• 17:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like a bit of a project.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, it's.
• 17:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not the first two games where they had a trap run against them, you know.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: They, they need to tackle better.
• 17:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: They need to play better.
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: They need to get healthy.
• 17:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: I,
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard, it's hard when you have these games because it tends to make you forget the positive performances we've seen in the past.
• 17:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: And this team's gonna get back to that.
• 17:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was a buzz-saw of a day.
• 17:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: They're making fun of me in the chat because I'm using a lot of words to say it was all bad, but it was top to bottom, man.
• 17:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: Top to bottom, it was absolutely terrible outside of a few players who stood out,
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: it was just it was just rough.
• 18:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: I have faith that these guys are going to fix it.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got so much talent on this defense.
• 18:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: They just need to get things going in the right direction and again, it was just it was a it was an opponent that is playing as well as anybody in the AFC right now and they they beat the brakes off us.
• 18:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's really that's it that's as far as I get with it.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't take anything long-term from this that we didn't already know.
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: We knew the offensive line struggles, right?
• 18:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: We knew the money game was a struggle, the tightness game was a bit of an aberration.
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll take that.
• 18:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was a nice change of pace, but the reality is we're not a very good running football team.
• 18:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we also know that the Sean has his limitations.
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: And when you don't perfect the Sean and you don't give him a running game, it's gonna be bad.
• 18:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's the long and short of it, man, because it was a rough, rough Sunday.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I do want to wrap it to show you a welcome sky.
• 18:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we can wrap it up just with it was bad, you know, just the top to bottom was just awful.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I proposed last week, Pete was the notion of cheating up the defensive secondary because Aaron Rogers can't throw long at all.
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I guess Darnel Washington kind of proved me wrong.
• 19:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: effectively.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was just a situation where the browse defense just couldn't play to its strengths.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: It couldn't rush to the past or quickly, because Rotterdam's gets rid of the ball so fast.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: It couldn't stop the run because it doesn't know how to handle the trap.
• 19:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just to it just seems like a doomed defense that is going to be very hard for Rottenburg to fix in a week.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the Darnel Washington stuff was bad football on the part of Carson's questions.
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: You owned it immediately after the game.
• 19:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Said he was in man coverage.
• 19:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: He should have stayed on a Darnel Washington.
• 19:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: He took the cheese of the thick screen thinking, you know, I'm gonna go out there and make a play.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they did that intentionally, fake screen late.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: This was part of the strategy that the Steelers employed to basically invalidate the defensive line of the Cleveland Browns entirely because Aaron Rogers' time to throw average was like 2.1.
• 20:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were not letting hold on the ball.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Combined that with running the ball and running trapped the way they did.
• 20:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: They tried to dig out the defensive line in that case.
• 20:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, third and third team, one of the traps they ran was on third down.
• 20:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: and over the sticks and they were able to get it.
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's how demoralizing was.
• 20:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what I would sort of take from this is both players and coaches tend to learn more from defeat than winning and getting away with stuff.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, I think the branch probably should have had better answers coming out of the Titans game for what the Titans were able to do with Tony Ballard running trapped in some of these other things.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now that they've lost and got you somewhat humiliated the process, hopefully this is going to really get them to focus and take away this element.
• 21:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like so many things with this team did is so young.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: They are trying to do so much learning and figuring this thing on the fly, while also trying to win.
• 21:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's great that they've already won five games.
• 21:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: They put themselves in a chance to compete for the playoffs.
• 21:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Great.
• 21:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think if the season started out worse,
• 21:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the Browns would be taking a more deliberate approach and we'd sort of be okay with sort of having them sort of take a very step-by-step process of figuring this stuff out, but the Browns have found themselves winning these football games and they're trying to keep winning these football games, which can, you know, I don't want to say lead to some bad choices, but it does lead to some, I guess, compromise choices in terms of how your strategy is.
• 21:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Browns are not good at starting out football games either side of the ball.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that, but part of that is a result of emphasis.
• 22:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because every time we see them go out and do what they do in the fourth quarter and when a game, we applaud them for being so seemingly prepared and ready to go and forth down or the fourth quarter.
• 22:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then all the players to a T say, Coach Moken puts a huge emphasis on this.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: We practice this a ton.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
• 22:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a critical element in their winning football games.
• 22:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's probably realistic to suggest that they aren't emphasizing the first quarter and starting out the script and starting out some of these other things and starting off faster.
• 22:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the push and pull and the choices you have to make as a football team over the course of the season.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: You generally speaking, you get what you emphasize.
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 22:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Joe, the Cleveland Browns decided or Todd Munkin decided after all those bad first defensive series to take the ball and go offence on their first series, much to the pleasure and cheering and some of the people in our our live stream.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who said, yeah, let's turn it around.
• 23:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely freaking disaster, but it brings us over to the topic of the offense, which I put after the defense, because in terms of relative suckitude, the defense running game was worse than well, yeah, not offense, but it was.
• 23:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: grim on offenses as well.
• 23:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Eight sacks, you know, Watson's line looks palatable.
• 23:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was 27 to 30, 90, 20, 24 yards, but a lot of it was during garbage time.
• 23:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: But eight sackles and eight tackles and eight sacks in the last fumble, just completely ridiculous performance on the part of the Cleveland Brown's offense.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, when you take a look at those 300 yard games, are you buying anything on that?
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, in terms of the Sean, yeah, for the Sean Watson, not on Sunday.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: I give him credit when he plays, well, I don't think he played well on Sunday.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think he made some nice throws and they made some nice plays.
• 24:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: They moved the ball through the air, but there was no consistency.
• 24:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: Their Pittsburgh was never threatened by the Sean.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: Pittsburgh was never worried about the Sean.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: They were never worried about our offense.
• 24:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: They sat on a lot of stuff like it was early, but when when
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, people, people jumped on him because he didn't get rid of the ball.
• 24:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: The Steelers were ready for those screens, like they weren't ready.
• 24:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like TJ Watt, TJ Watt would have picked six that first one, if shoulder didn't throw it out about them.
• 24:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: They knew, they knew it was common.
• 24:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: They just,
• 24:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: it was just a very well-coached game and well-played game on both sides of the ball for Pittsburgh.
• 25:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I know Pete is going to smirk and say something says, we don't give much authority enough credit.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's a good coach, man.
• 25:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll tell you what, we didn't have any answers for what they did offensively at all.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a veteran team and they got a veteran quarterback who doesn't make mistakes and whatever you give him, he's going to take and then summon, you know,
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Look I'm I'm okay with all this because I look at that Pittsburgh line up and I look at the ages of those guys and I know that this is Rogers last year and Cameron Hayward he that's son of a he lied to us last year and said it was his last year it better be this year I'm tired of that dude Barry I'm tired of that freaking mountain that just crushes the running game every time you know right
• 25:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: it's it's it's so easy to pile on these guys right now, but it was just such it was a absolute nightmare afternoon.
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: They just need to rinse repeat, hit it hard this week.
• 25:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: It should be humbling.
• 25:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: It should get them all focused.
• 26:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then again, I can't stress enough.
• 26:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: A team like the Saints is going to be a welcome site after Pittsburgh.
• 26:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that they have a copy of the Browns Tape 2 and can probably figure out the trap game.
• 26:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the Browns better get ready for that in a big, big hurry.
• 26:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: But of those sex peat, you know, these are a shared responsibility.
• 26:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are due to the offensive line, not performing up to its capability.
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of it is on Deshawn Watson.
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of it, like Joe Loads 2, you just gotta give credit to the Pittsburgh defense.
• 26:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Where were you portioned the blade for these eight sacks that we took on Sunday?
• 26:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: They often the blind got worked over.
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was Spencer Fano's worst game.
• 26:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure he will learn from it.
• 26:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: They got beat up front.
• 26:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is that everybody knows that if you go against the Pittsburgh Steelers, the thing you have to do is, according to back, is get the ball at your hands.
• 27:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: We saw them do, and we even saw this Sunday.
• 27:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he was sack day times.
• 27:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: There were times the ball came out quickly and the Browns gashed them when they did it.
• 27:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Week four, when the ball was out of to Sean Watson's hands, good things happened.
• 27:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I put a lot of it on the offensive line.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: The problem and the issue that continues to pop up with to Sean Watson,
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: He always makes them look worse than they are.
• 27:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: He never improves the situation.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, both of TJ Watts' sacks were entirely on Sean because he either took a bad drop or held on the ball needlessly and allowed TJ to get his classic clean up sack and do his stupid never want to play off game jump kick.
• 27:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever, well, like Alexei Smith was fantastic.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: He looked every bit the part of Alexei Smith
• 28:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's certainly a mix, but the problem is like just from just Sean standpoint, listen man, you're on pace for like a hundred sacks, you're never going to get there, just from a self preservation standpoint, it behooves you to get rid of the football and even if it means throwing it out about we have played teams.
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: to save the yardage, obviously not take a beating and then made plays to win a lot of them to win the football game.
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Negative plays, which sack certainly are, are death for this football team, so are the penalties.
• 28:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: They are not a good enough team to win when they're consistently put behind the sticks and when you take these sacks, you're putting yourself behind the sticks.
• 28:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're gonna sit here and say, well the running game's bad, I agree.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we're also going to have to, you know, wrestle with the fact that when you take these stupid sex, you basically take the running game out of the out of the menu.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, now it's second and 16, where you get to get under center and run the ball, like you're going to be back and gone, you're going to be even if you try to run it, it's going to be something that sort of like feels more of a
• 29:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, a tendency breaker is opposed to a good running, running team trying to get back on track.
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the Sean's got to be better on that and I think the Browns know that and I think that's part of what drives the guy like Todd Mokin crazy is they are doing to me.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: You give the steel is credit for what they did.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: They played well.
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the Browns knew exactly what they had to do.
• 29:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are plenty of times where there were situations where the ball could have gone to places and if they weren't,
• 29:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: don't just put your head down, try to create something that you can't make happen throw the ball away and to Sean does not appear capable of evolving that part of his game.
• 30:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just, he's the same player he's been since he's been in Houston.
• 30:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you talked about that a little bit about the NFL evolving and Watson not evolving,
• 30:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe, you know, great point there about the Browns being behind the sticks and having to go away from the running game.
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're second and eighteen or, you know, first and twenty, you're going to have to probably throw the ball unless you're jailing war and then your trap game is working.
• 30:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say though, it seemed to me when you're at 35 yards or 34 yards, whatever the
• 30:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: that, you know, Munkin is deliberately going away from the run in the second half of the game down two scores.
• 30:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that that is an appropriate strategy down two scores in the middle of the third quarter?
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was on Sunday.
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it normally would be, but on Sunday it was you weren't just losing the battle of the line of scrimmage.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: You were getting dominated.
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: Your backs were getting hit in the backfield.
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: You weren't getting any room in the running game.
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: There was no push.
• 31:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: And really the only thing that we could have done
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: for that is to show him getting rid of the ball quickly.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's it.
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just a quick passing game because we couldn't protect him.
• 31:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: If he got forbid, he did his three to eight step drop out of the shotgun.
• 31:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: By the time he hit his final step, the linebackers were passed.
• 31:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: like they were they were they were they were they were they were they were shooting the edges so fast there are collapse in the pocket whenever they blets a paint Wilson I didn't wake up on Sunday knowing I had to hate somebody new but apparently now I have to hate paint Wilson for the foreseeable future I mean
• 31:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: The running game just could not get going, could not get any traction, and at that point you need to facilitate the short passing game to be your running game.
• 32:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: And to Sean was able to do it at parts like he threw for over 300 yards because when he did get rid of it to Pete's point, there were guys who were open, there were things to be had, but they couldn't sustain it, and they couldn't do enough to keep the defense on the field and eventually get the running game going.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's part of it too.
• 32:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: If we can, if we can, if we can move the ball enough in the first, uh, in the first half and keep the defense on the field, the running games eventually going to get those Trump plays.
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to wear the defense down.
• 32:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to get through that first line of that boom, just one broken tackle, and then it's off to the races.
• 32:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you don't you don't have the defense on the field long enough to even start to wear them down, you know, it was just it was it was domination across the board.
• 32:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't have a problem with mucking out running in the second half of this particular game, but moving forward.
• 32:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, that's there's so much time in the football game.
• 32:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: You shouldn't abandon the run until very early as the fourth quarter.
• 32:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, Pete, you're your reference to what was humorous.
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But Highsmith is the one who did the damage right against Spencer Fannow.
• 33:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and he said to her, this is good.
• 33:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, they seemed to find those those type of players.
• 33:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: to great excess in my opinion.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if this was Thanos' worst game, how worried should we be?
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was it just a matter of Spencer Fano going up against a very, very good player?
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, look, I'm not worried for a number of reasons to have to do with Spencer Fano.
• 33:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Spencer Fano is both a happy worker and extremely hard on himself.
• 33:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even rounds have done well.
• 33:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: you talked to him, he's always quick to be like, man, there are a lot of plays I feel like I get a good better at.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, that's just how he's sort of wired, which is good, like I think that's positive for him.
• 34:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Alex, I smith gave some problems in part because he was both strong enough and fast enough to sort of take away angles so that like,
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Fano doesn't have the grown man's strength he's gonna have in next year and the year after.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he wasn't fast enough to sort of counter those things and he's got to come up with answers to that.
• 34:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think Alex Tyson played really, really well.
• 34:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it exposed necessarily.
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just got Fano in some situations.
• 34:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's got to find consistent answers for and be able to deal with.
• 34:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is sort of the trials and tribulations of a rookie tackle, as you go against guys who are really good at this and have been doing this for a really long time.
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it had been polished at this and all of a sudden they threw something you weren't sort of ready for or maybe underestimated or whatever and you get beat and that's sort of how this thing goes and you know you can have a little bit of a snowball effect.
• 34:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully he learns from it I suspect he will again over the course of he's I think still maybe 22 at this point he's only getting a stronger speed is excellent so he's going to be I don't worry about him in terms of.
• 35:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, outticed myth and Nicarbic sort of made him all look awful.
• 35:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just think it was a bad day at the office for everybody, some of that is certainly a lot of that is certainly on Fano and those individuals, but it's also a problem of your offense can only do so many things and it makes you predictable and gives them a huge advantage.
• 35:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 35:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 35:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So of the list of things to worry about Spencer Fano is well down it.
• 35:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: We are a little bit more in halfway through the program.
• 35:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's time for me to talk about what's next.
• 35:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what's next after a loss like that to the Steelers is a trade deadline.
• 35:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: is the team coming back after a week, you know, they have come back after both of their losses pretty strong.
• 36:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully they do it, do it again this week, but if you want to know what's coming up next, what you want to do is you want to go to the OBR.
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And specifically, you want to go to the premium forums, remember central, ask the insiders where you can pick
• 36:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: These guys brains, the brains of our entire staff, you can get a sense of what's happening as the Browns are talking with other teams that you simply don't get elsewhere.
• 36:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And all of that for the price of a latte or two.
• 36:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So head to theobr.com and please check out our premium forums and sign up if you feel like it.
• 36:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'd love to see you there, I love to talk to you.
• 36:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
• 36:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's get back to what happened against Pittsburgh.
• 36:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I got to bring up is the talk, the trash talk that happened before this game, Joe.
• 36:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: All week verse talked.
• 37:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: He called the sealer's dirty.
• 37:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: He said he was going to put that one on the calendar.
• 37:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: all that sort of thing.
• 37:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a question I've asked Pete before I like your opinion on it.
• 37:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that sort of bolt and board material makes any tangible difference in a game like we saw on Sunday.
• 37:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, not really.
• 37:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: I just think it leads to a, you know, a bigger spiking of the football postgame, you know, right.
• 37:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll tell you it was a local radio absolutely lit up Jared verse this morning.
• 37:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I.
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, man.
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can understand, you know, the disappointment in the sack numbers and this stuff, but like these guys all talk trash.
• 37:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the Steelers are dirty.
• 37:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
• 37:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: And Mason McCormick gets flagged because he pile drives Jared verse.
• 37:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then I hear the morning radio making fun of him saying, you should have called him dirty.
• 38:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, they're looking point.
• 38:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I look, I, all these guys talk trash and I don't, I don't think Jared versus the reason we lost the game.
• 38:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, obviously in retrospect, when you get your, you know, what kicked, it always, it always looks bad.
• 38:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: You look like you got egg on your face.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: You got to face the music, own up to it.
• 38:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: He said, I stood behind what I said, we didn't bring it this at the other.
• 38:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's open.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: All these guys talk trash.
• 38:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: They all have tax messages back and forth.
• 38:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: They all know each other.
• 38:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, they do the podcast circuit and then everything gets blown out of proportion.
• 38:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is more fan stuff than anything else.
• 38:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's fan stuff.
• 38:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's really stuff.
• 38:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Something to talk about.
• 38:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's your stuff.
• 38:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's your stuff.
• 38:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: The dirty little secret is when you can focus on trash talk, you don't have to know shit about football.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to say got the thing about this word and you can focus on guys talking and you sound really smart because I was he said and he said like it distracts from you actually having to analyze anything with any education any idiot can say well he said this so therefore this look do I think Bolton but board material can have an impact a little bit sure but ultimately
• 39:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not that big of a deal.
• 39:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think in some ways, Jared vs. a good representation of what I think this team is, which is trying to fake it until they make it.
• 39:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to, as much as anything, yes, they're young and rational, this other stuff.
• 39:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But they're also trying to convince themselves, they are who they want to be, and he's trying.
• 39:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you know,
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: consistently is like behind him in this Todd Munkin like Todd Munkin is absolutely encouraging Jared verse to be this guy.
• 39:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Todd Munkin is a yapper.
• 39:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Todd Munkin is the guy who came out and responded to Mike Tomlin, like
• 39:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's, he's everything that they're talking, at least Jared Versus on the field.
• 39:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, I don't care if you want to talk talk.
• 39:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's more entertaining for people like us.
• 40:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's more entertaining for people who don't want to actually know this sport.
• 40:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It builds a rivalry that, you know, that certainly I like, look, man, it sucks that the brandth lost this game.
• 40:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: But going in the next year, do I think they're gonna sit here and remember what happened to this and see that thing of verse and be pissed off?
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's gonna make when you go into Pittsburgh and you win that game.
• 40:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's gonna make it feel that much better or when you win it all.
• 40:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like we want the rivalry to be great.
• 40:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is how you get there is having this stuff is back and forth of all this stuff.
• 40:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, the Browns got to talk after the time after they won.
• 40:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I got to see it.
• 40:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: TJ What?
• 40:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: No no no play victory jump kicks in that game because he didn't do anything What you did get on the headset and yell at his coaching staff like right this is what happens you get to go back and forth You get to have fun great like this just makes it sport more fun So I don't care but I can't tell you that Jared verse absolutely is like
• 41:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: not only like encouraged, but like has the lack of room behind him all the way.
• 41:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like right part I don't care and people are going to turn this into Jared verse is in good and all this that's it Jared verse was not the problem you had on Sunday and like there are plenty of things that are to be criticized with Jared verse which I will cover and story.
• 41:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yesterday just to give you an idea
• 41:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Steelers ran for 200 yards from left guard to left end.
• 41:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: The spot where Jared verse occupies eight yards.
• 41:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't know that at him.
• 41:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then as I mentioned earlier, Aaron Rogers time to throw 2.1.
• 41:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: They invalidated him entirely other than the time he did hit Rogers.
• 41:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, yeah, do I want to see more out of Jared verse?
• 41:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, are their games where Jared verse eats you a whole lot more.
• 41:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, was this the game?
• 41:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, so it looks bad because chair first did all this talking and the steel is basically to come out of the game entirely.
• 42:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 42:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 42:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I peep dreams up an interesting point about the rivalry, which is really sort of fallen on hard times, you know, with the steel is being so dominant about that.
• 42:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about that this week too.
• 42:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is just.
• 42:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit more fun again.
• 42:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: What happened on Sunday wasn't fun, but the day's leading up to it were a bit fun.
• 42:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I pretty convinced that rivalries really start when one team gets in another team's way of winning a Super Bowl or winning a play off or whatever.
• 42:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why Baltimore and Pittsburgh have such a rivalry because they've gotten each other's way frequently.
• 42:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But does seem like this, the steel is rivalry has picked up a notch over the course of this year and has become a little bit more fun again.
• 42:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you think?
• 42:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's entirely based on the fact that we're relevant, or at least our record says that we should be relevant, you know?
• 43:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all it is.
• 43:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: Look, they would hate us so much if we would beat them more often.
• 43:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's a one sided rivalry at this point because they've been kicking or you know what's for It's not this the whole point reasons boring is because every year I can go the bronze They're gonna beat the stealers on Thursday night at home and the bronchicle losing Pittsburgh Oh, like you can just etch it and stone at this point
• 43:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but the difference between the differences that we squeak out of when at home and then we go into Pittsburgh and they take belt to ask and we go back to Cleveland with my time on three Squared because he lost the should door freaking Sanders did that
• 43:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, look, I agree with you, the key here is being relevant.
• 43:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 43:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like, because a lot of a lot of bad brown seems to beat the Pittsburgh Steelers.
• 43:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, Tim Cowach is the best quarterback in Pittsburgh, this team has had since 1999, right?
• 44:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they do beat the Steelers.
• 44:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously Kevin Stephansky's record was way better than the previous coaches to which it was really lapsed.
• 44:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin Stephansky's sort of brought the whole division sort of even overall.
• 44:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That in itself has become boring.
• 44:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, the bronzer going to beat the sealers on Thursday night at home and then lose on the road until
• 44:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Browns are able to go into Pittsburgh and get a decisive win.
• 44:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, like Tim couch did, 33 to 13 or where the hell that game was.
• 44:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where the playoff game would pick a May field or the Steelers come back in and trounce the Browns at home.
• 44:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you're gonna get a little more juice.
• 44:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because like you look at the Steelers and they've had good rivalries with it since they bangles.
• 44:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: They've had a better rivalry with the Ravens, where both teams did exactly what we saw in this one.
• 44:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Both teams accused the other team of being dirty.
• 44:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Both teams hate everybody else's players.
• 44:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's dirty hits on both sides, and that's the reason the Bengals rivalry picked up so much is one of the all-ties favorites.
• 45:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: The five is perfect, which Vantes perfect was the absolute stereotypical stealer, or fortunately played for the Bengals, and they hated him for it.
• 45:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, I tell you what we've got 15 minutes left in the show.
• 45:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to highlight a couple of bright spots in one very bright spot in the game on Sunday was Harold Fannett.
• 45:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was in the right star of the game.
• 45:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: 10 catches, 154 yards, long to 37, like he got ignited by that play against the Titans, you know, in the fourth quarter of the week before.
• 45:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he just kept going.
• 45:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joe, what do you think is ceiliness?
• 45:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is this a, you know, is he a potential all pro player?
• 45:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: If the Brown still don't want to, I have, I have reservations with how, how good of an every downtight and he can be.
• 46:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, just in terms of, you know, lining up in line and being a block and being a complete tight end.
• 46:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's still young.
• 46:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's still very young.
• 46:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's a 20 year old rookie, I think.
• 46:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: But, um, very, I think he is a legitimate elite weapon in the past and game already.
• 46:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: he's like you said he's he's a yards after catch monster he's very physical and not only not as he's strong but his running style he's so like he's the contact balance his ability to be slippery through tackles and just like pull away from guys he's a weapon man they just got to give him the ball we we had a
• 46:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: We hand on this side up a few weeks back, you know, what's the one thing you would do?
• 46:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: I said, Harold Finn, get this guy going.
• 46:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't care if it's a five yard dump all for your hit and down field.
• 46:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's gonna turn it up and he's gonna generate yards.
• 46:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: The guy's instant offense, he's got a great attitude.
• 46:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: I feed him all day long.
• 46:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: He should get double digit targets every single game.
• 46:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: a great.
• 46:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want him to be a better blocker.
• 47:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which he was against the Titans, but the fact of the matter is Travis Kelsey has never been a good rape blocker.
• 47:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to go to can't.
• 47:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like Harold Fanon is sort of in that mold of guy.
• 47:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they play a little bit differently.
• 47:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Travis Kelsey a little bit quicker in and out of his breaks, but Harold is no slouch in that department
• 47:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: through contact player than Kelsey is.
• 47:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like we're getting back to vintage, Harold Fanon, which is rookie, you're Harold Fanon, where every game you're sort of like, he's just gonna be a stud.
• 47:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now,
• 47:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
• 47:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a little bit frustrating that we waited once again until basically the game was over before Denzel Blost and got involved.
• 47:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Casey conception, we got involved.
• 47:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Early I had to expose the play and then disappeared, which is all too familiar.
• 47:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Dylan Samson played really well.
• 47:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love what we're seeing from him.
• 47:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: But this is sort of the problem and where people say I'm too hard on to Sean Watson.
• 48:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I see a whole lot of weapons out there and they aren't getting the ball.
• 48:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that's sort of this thing becomes frustrating and and look, I'm thrilled that Harold Fanon got all that production, but so much of it was just empty calories, uh, and it needs to happen sooner and get it going, uh, much quicker as with all of this stuff.
• 48:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: They've got to play better.
• 48:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I, I, I love it.
• 48:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I, I, now you've got between,
• 48:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh, fan and Boston and conception like they're at 400 yards, 400 yards like 375 in terms of receiving like it's a you have your dynamic three.
• 48:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you have guys like Jerry Judy who's certainly useful player.
• 48:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Judkins is certainly useful player, Dylan Sanderson's useful player.
• 48:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: They need another inline, they need a real inline tight end in a real quarterback and this line to get better.
• 48:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to be often running.
• 48:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a really good situation for them to be in.
• 49:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got a, you know, one thought, sorry.
• 49:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just got a Texas distracted me.
• 49:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: But Dylan seems so.
• 49:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: had a very good game Pete.
• 49:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're starting to see him use as a receiver a little bit more effectively than we've seen in the past.
• 49:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, a lot of empty calories at the end of the game, like he said, but six cases, 62 yards, one carry for seven years, Dylan Sance and seems to be evolving as a weapon for the rounds.
• 49:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and look, man, they were excited about this guy all training camp.
• 49:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: They loved what they were getting out of him
• 49:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Guy, they can get space and just create yardage, especially against this roof that has so many weapons all over the place that like, if you don't pay attention and Dylan Sambs and you lose him, suddenly he's off the races.
• 49:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Browns were disappointed, obviously, when he got hurt and had to go on on eating syrup.
• 50:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of hoping they're sort of done with the experiment if him, I get critter and I just don't think he's good at it.
• 50:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think at this point,
• 50:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a good way of getting in hurt, but man, he just adds such a dynamic and I think the combination of he and Juggins is really, really good.
• 50:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So long as they get other pieces of this thing working, working system blocking and allow these guys to go, the thing that I love is both of them are really good past catchers and really good with the ball in their hands after the catch.
• 50:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That certainly has been sort of a way to not replace the run and game because they aren't doing that,
• 50:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: creating ways for them to get create yardage that's sort of Just getting them the ball and space and allowing them to make plays or enjoy kids case Simple dump off he can make some guys missed and fight for for yardage.
• 50:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's it's useful They just need to keep going and get that those other pieces solved and get that evolution of being a good running team all along with the this other stuff and this team could be really really good
• 51:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 51:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 51:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, a couple minutes left in the show.
• 51:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk just real quick about the trade deadline.
• 51:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: A couple positions of need Joe certainly that second tight end looks to be of value Browns are looking at edged for us or two and we have some information on in room or central about that.
• 51:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: uh... is there anybody out there that you would love to see the browns uh... go after assuming they don't have to spend the day to pick together yeah i mean
• 51:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the big, the big edge rusher name that we've heard in the past was Kalil Mack.
• 51:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I don't know how expensive he's going to be.
• 51:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, it's weird.
• 51:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I think they do need edge help.
• 51:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I would love them to get somebody a little twitchy, a little more of a speed guy off the edge, just to compliment the rest of the group.
• 52:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I would look at, you know, look at teams that are struggling right now, like the Eagles are struggling, so maybe give McCall about a J looks hunt or the defensive tackle that Pete likes that once Pete wants to get in the off season.
• 52:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, Ojo.
• 52:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 52:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the Millicons think sort of, I think probably puts that to rest, but yes.
• 52:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Good player.
• 52:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it kind of takes the dollars away from it like maybe a draft pick, but not a high price free agent.
• 52:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 52:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's where I'm at.
• 52:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that does make sense.
• 52:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Other than that, Barry, I like you said, man, give me, give me an upgrade at a number two tight end.
• 52:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody's a little bit better receiver than Whiteheart, but legitimate blocker, that would be that would be my go to, you know, I, Michael Mayer would be a guy that I would look for, but I think he'd be expensive.
• 52:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Great.
• 52:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Tim.
• 52:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Contract.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: But maybe maybe, did they extend Mayer's contract?
• 52:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I believe so.
• 52:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I didn't see that.
• 52:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll scratch that.
• 53:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, maybe if Charlie Colour is healthy on the charges, see if you can maybe plug him for, you know, the maybe a late rap picks swap.
• 53:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he's on a what a one year seven million dollar deal, I think something like that.
• 53:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think you got three year deal on the issue there is.
• 53:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: do the Bronx want that much money at that position for what he does.
• 53:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because he got paid a lot.
• 53:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but they don't have any money at that position otherwise.
• 53:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they could go that route.
• 53:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, my suspicion is the charge probably want more than I'd want to pay.
• 53:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, I'm sure Todd Mook and wanted him at the time.
• 53:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't get him, could this pay their work around to get him?
• 53:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe.
• 53:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Address shirt, I'm not going to get anything that's not going to be prohibitively expensive.
• 53:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's really difficult to take that, that's but it's I think it's really difficult to get tight ends because there's one they're super valuable and two, just the way they are built, they can be very fragile.
• 54:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like you look at what happened to Cole Comet.
• 54:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Which, you know, at one point with somebody that was sort of banded about and as a trade possibility in the part bears like nowhere, just happy to have more tight ends, he goes down.
• 54:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like it gives teams reason to sort of be resistant to move guys at this stage in the game.
• 54:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 54:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 54:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am not sure how that got up there.
• 54:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they got out of me.
• 54:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sorry.
• 54:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
• 54:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
• 54:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
• 54:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Confused the host, easily done.
• 54:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Pete, about Ed pressure, we went from having the quickest of the quick win pass pressures on the planet in Miles Garrett to Isaiah McGuire and Jared
• 54:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: If he's fortunate, can push an offensive line in the back end of the quarterback.
• 54:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: How badly do we need to quick win Ed's Russia, both at the trade that line and next year in the draft?
• 55:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't think unless they treat for somebody like Wilming Donald, which I'm not suggesting they do, I think they're going to wait and they should.
• 55:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the Browns are going to wait, ultimately, because they want to get it right and spend in a way that suggests we are really in the nail this.
• 55:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: even before the bronzer traded miles Garrett, they were very interested in our Mason Thomas out of Oklahoma.
• 55:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the draft play out the way it did.
• 55:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Brown circumstance I'll ball stand 39.
• 55:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad they did.
• 55:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Our Mason Thomas went 40th to the chiefs.
• 55:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's been very good, but he's exactly that type of player.
• 55:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the Browns are what you make a concerted effort to find that guy most likely in the draft, not impossible for agency, but that is clearly a big deal.
• 55:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just looking at Mike Rittenberg's track record,
• 55:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Last year, when he was with the Falcons, they had drafted Jalen Walker and Jalen Pierce with that guy, or James Pierce with that guy.
• 56:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, James Pierce is not exactly a reliable human being, but he had 10 and a half sex as a rookie.
• 56:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Before that, with the jets, this is where I get a little bit worried and hope they don't go this route.
• 56:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: They had Wilmic Donald.
• 56:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: who they trapped in the first round, way too early for my taste, super old and not that productive.
• 56:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nevertheless, he's guy who could win quick.
• 56:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if I just look at his track record, says I want this thing, and he might want more than one.
• 56:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: To really bolster that.
• 56:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they really like what they have defensive tackle.
• 56:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: They love the fact that those guys can get pressure, but they need to balance it out and to help, you know, cause more threats and not rely so much on linebacker or DB blitz is to get pressure.
• 56:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's going to be a huge deal for them.
• 56:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 56:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: And one thing I'd like to add just before we get out of here.
• 57:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think if this team had a different situation at quarterback, you could see a little more aggression at the trade deadline.
• 57:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
• 57:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't believe they're going to trade any serious future assets to go only on this particular roster.
• 57:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 57:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely think there's players that we could add in those positions that need to be upgraded, but I think the Browns should just
• 57:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: stick to the process and let things play out and then add them at the appropriate time in the off season.
• 57:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's just personally.
• 57:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: If they make an aggressive move, they clearly feel differently about quarterback than we as a collective do.
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, is the teaching Campbell trade out there that we don't see because I certainly don't
• 57:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: They did all the things that I think Andrew Bray wants.
• 57:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It got somebody that helps them now.
• 57:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It got somebody that helps them into the future in that move.
• 58:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't, look, unless they're trading super late round picks, I don't think he's interested necessarily in trading for rentals.
• 58:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because why are you, what are you chasing this year?
• 58:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I understand.
• 58:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ron's want to make the playoffs great.
• 58:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: They want to win the division.
• 58:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, probably the least sure one yesterday will see what happens.
• 58:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: No.
• 58:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're on a schedule that is good.
• 58:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, you're ahead of schedule, based on what we've seen so far, just let it happen the way you want, let it happen, let it come to you, play the offseason like you did this past year, and hopefully you can find that quarterback and really get this thing going.
• 58:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think on that note, we will wrap it up for the night, Cleveland Browns.
• 58:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, young team, lot of draft picks, lot of draft capital coming up next year.
• 58:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've got a general manager who's on a roll.
• 58:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the long term trajectory is up.
• 58:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bad weekend, Pittsburgh, back weekend and Pittsburgh.
• 58:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: This weekend, New Orleans Saints hold a different ball game should be an interesting one.
• 59:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: We will be live on the site fort in the water cooler and on the live topic.
• 59:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we hope you join us on Sunday.
• 59:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: We hope you join us every day at the OBR.
• 59:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for tuning in.
• 59:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Appreciate it.
• 59:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Pete.
• 59:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Joe.
• 59:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: As always, we will be back next Monday with Ganga 3.
• 59:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Good night, everyone.