Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 219. A Story Of Spiritual Manipulation - Jim Jones and Peoples Temple - Part 3

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219. A Story Of Spiritual Manipulation - Jim Jones and Peoples Temple - Part 3 · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:02
Hello, welcome back to the podcast today.
0:05
Glad to be here. Such a beautiful day out.
0:08
Great day to be recording with you, James.
0:11
And let's see, how's your day going?
0:14
Man, it's doing well. I think in North Carolina, the
0:17
weather forgot what to do last week.
0:21
On Monday it was like 30°. There was snow.
0:23
They canceled school Tuesday. We had a ball game.
0:27
It was still a little chilly. Thursday we had another football
0:30
game. And.
0:31
It was like 80° and yesterday, Tuesday or Monday we had a ball
0:36
game and football game outside and.
0:38
It was like 70, nice, windy, a little good.
0:41
This morning I woke up, it was below freezing and I've got my
0:44
pants back on and my my kids are having to like pull out their
0:47
winter clothes because it's getting cold again.
0:51
I love the cold weather. Don't get me wrong.
0:53
I am not one that complaints when cold weather comes.
0:56
I am one that when it begins to get warm and I break the shorts
1:00
out, I want to stay warm at that point.
1:02
I don't want to go back to this cold weather thing.
1:04
So schizophrenia with the weather, I'm ready for the
1:08
spring to happen and be done. And you know, I've got the mower
1:11
out. I've been mowing like those
1:13
things are happening so that that would be where I'm at.
1:16
I'm like, come on, man, What? What's going on More.
1:17
Sake for the kids right there they got.
1:20
My, my youngest son, he he dressed himself.
1:22
He's five. He just turned 5.
1:24
He's like, dad, I don't even know where my winter clothes are
1:26
at. You're telling me to put pants
1:27
on? I can't find them.
1:28
I'm like, what's going on? So yeah.
1:30
Exactly like I did the same thing, like I wear pants and
1:33
sweat and then the next day I'll I'll wear shorts today and then
1:36
I'll freeze and it's the sun's not coming out.
1:40
There's still that little nip in the air, the little chill in the
1:43
air. But I'm like you, I'm, I'm like,
1:45
I'm ready for it to get warm. I'm ready for it to stay warm
1:49
and I'm ready for that summer to get here.
1:53
I'm more of a summer guy, the older that I get.
1:55
I used to like cold and winter and things like that, but not
1:59
anymore. I'm definitely ready to be done
2:01
with the cold weather, that's for sure.
2:04
Yeah, I am ready for winter, summertime and and springtime
2:08
and vacation season. We've got spring break right
2:12
around the corner or I think when this comes out, we've
2:14
already had spring break and and then we've got end of the school
2:18
year, our anniversary coming up 15 years, me and my wife, not me
2:22
and Brett, me and my wife and and then the convention right
2:26
around the corner in June. And so hopefully you will guys
2:29
will join us down there at the SBC 2026 in Orlando.
2:34
What a wonderful time it's going to be.
2:36
Brett, what is you guys have any big family vacation coming up
2:41
that that's the summer or what are y'all doing as a family this
2:45
year? We have a busy summer ahead of
2:48
us. We have convention, we have the
2:50
convention coming up. Then we have a, the mission trip
2:55
to Nicaragua in July. And so our vacation is more or
3:00
less going to be in the fall. And so we're, you know, this
3:03
summer is going to be a busy summer for us.
3:06
And so I mean, if we, I've got a little camp on the river, if we
3:10
can get away for a longer weekend, we might go down there
3:13
and swim over the weekend or something like that.
3:16
But we are looking for them. We hit the mountains in the
3:20
fall. And so that's when, you know,
3:22
that's when our family vacation is but just a busy, busy time,
3:27
you know, convention, it it, you know, it's, it's church work,
3:32
but it is kind of still a break. I mean, it is a time to
3:34
recharge, just kind of get away. And I kind of think that's the
3:39
point of the convention, not only to do business, but to just
3:43
give pastors time to, you know, just breathe a little bit and,
3:47
and, and take a little break. And yeah, it's hectic and, and,
3:51
and there's some things going on, but I look forward to that
3:53
every year. And I'm really, really looking
3:57
forward to it this year as we're going to Orlando.
4:00
Got some other things planned there down there.
4:02
Excited to bring my boys down there.
4:04
Definitely not going to Disney World because I take out a
4:08
second mortgage, mortgage on my house to go to Disney World.
4:12
We are going to do do some things in Orlando.
4:15
Absolutely. Yeah.
4:16
We're, we're excited about it. I can't wait.
4:17
It's going to be a great time. It's one of those things I look
4:21
forward to now more for the sake of what you said, right?
4:24
It's that recharging time we're constantly pouring out as
4:27
pastors to other people, counseling and preaching.
4:30
And it's a time to get away with other brothers and sisters, get
4:35
really good preaching and teaching during the pastor's
4:37
conference this year. They've got some micro
4:39
conferences they're breaking out with with worship and youth and
4:42
children and admin stuff and and.
4:45
You know it. Doesn't appeal to me.
4:46
I'm going to go to the main preaching session and just enjoy
4:49
the, the, the feeding of my soul during that time before the the
4:54
conference and convention time where we deal with the business
4:57
of the convention. And, and Brad, this is going to
5:00
be it's, it's starting to shape up like it's going to be a
5:02
pretty nicey convention. I don't know if you saw the
5:05
cross politics newest documentary of how the SBC got
5:10
robbed of $13 million. If you have not seen it, you
5:15
need to go and watch it. Our listeners need to go and
5:17
watch it. We may do a breakdown of that.
5:19
They talked through how the convention was trying to be a
5:22
retro hauled with the Rachel Dill Hollander situation with
5:25
the sex abuse task force and the report that came out and how
5:29
basically it got bamboozled out of $13 million to pay for a
5:36
bashed report. And they do a really good job
5:39
over at Cross Politics. You can go and look that up.
5:42
It's about an hour and a half documentary and Chocolate Knox
5:46
and those guys do a fantastic job of walking through what that
5:50
looks like. And I think the more people that
5:53
see that, the more of the veil that's going to be pulled back
5:56
of what actually happened between 2017 and, and over the
6:00
last 9 or 8 years at the convention level.
6:03
And so I think that if, if you would do your research and just
6:07
watch a little bit of that, some of that's going to be addressed,
6:10
especially from the Founders ministry, I think they're going
6:13
to bring some of that up to light.
6:15
And it just needs to be some accountability of what's been
6:18
going on at the convention level.
6:20
I'll tell you one thing that's and I will have to check that
6:24
out. That's interesting.
6:25
I didn't know that, but I'll tell you one thing that's
6:27
affecting our summer and it's expressing, expressing a little
6:31
bit of a frustration that a lot of parents and members of my
6:35
church have is that our summers are getting shorter and shorter
6:39
and shorter. And I have teachers that go to
6:44
church here that are members and our summers and it's affecting
6:48
our schedule, for instance, because this, you know, our
6:52
schools in Lee County are going to start back before July is
6:56
over. And what that has done is it has
6:59
moved the big, we have a big fair around us called the
7:02
Neshoba County Fair and it moved it to the week that we usually
7:07
reserve for Vacation Bible School, which is the week of
7:10
Father's Day. Because of that, we've had to
7:13
reschedule our Vacation Bible school and it's the week before
7:18
we leave. It's the week is the week of
7:21
that we leave for convention. And So what we've had to do is
7:24
had to shorten our vacation Bible school.
7:27
So it's going to go from Sunday to Wednesday.
7:30
So a four day VBS and so vacation Bible school will get
7:34
done that Wednesday and then the next morning, Thursday morning
7:38
we'll leave to go down to convention.
7:40
So shorter is getting, summer is getting shorter and shorter and
7:44
it's pushing all the events that we normally do together.
7:47
So that's a little frustrating, but we're going to work it out.
7:51
Yeah, ours is the opposite. Ours is convention at the
7:55
beginning. I get back on that Thursday,
7:58
that Sunday kicks off for Vacation Bible school and we go
8:01
till Thursday and then three days later we leave for youth
8:04
camp and we have a week of youth camp.
8:06
So it's it's boom, boom, boom. And then kids can't next week.
8:10
It's just, it's wide open the whole time.
8:12
A month of June this year, July, we sort of take a breath and we
8:15
step back and we breathe for a moment.
8:17
We get our feet back underneath us and then we we leave it in
8:20
the month for the mission trip. So we got, it's a little
8:24
backwards this year, but hey, I don't mind.
8:27
And you know, while I'm young, I can do that.
8:31
Still praying for someone in our church to help lead music and,
8:34
and lead our youth and, and that would be a blessing just to be
8:37
able to take some of those things and aspects off my life.
8:40
But hey, the Lord's good. He's in charge and we'll just
8:42
continue to see where he leads. I don't know if y'all do this,
8:46
but I do this because you know what?
8:49
They did it whenever I was a kid in BBS.
8:51
It was kind of my favorite part of the Vacation Bible School,
8:56
and I've done it in every church I've pastored, is we always
8:59
build a scale and we have a penny offering boys versus
9:02
girls. Well, that's an issue this year
9:06
because we've done away with pennies.
9:09
And so I think this is the last year you can get pennies.
9:12
And so our options are A, we can buy the the pennies this last
9:18
year and instead of turning them in, just reuse them every year
9:23
so that that's an option or B, get some kind of stand in for
9:28
the penny. Maybe they can buy bricks
9:30
instead of a bucket, put a pallet down and that kids can
9:34
buy bricks and do do it that way, do a, do a offer in that
9:38
way or, or just scrap it all together.
9:42
You know what? We're going to do one of those
9:44
three things. But no more pennies, man.
9:47
The pennies is over. No more pennies.
9:49
Well, we at our church, they don't like the competition of
9:54
money. And so they have a couple people
9:57
that are like fearful of we did it one year and we did a pie in
10:00
the face and it was great. But since then they've they've
10:04
changed, they went back. They don't really like going,
10:07
I'm good either way, I don't care.
10:08
But to, to go back to your thought of what you said to do
10:11
is a penny. I've seen it done this way and
10:14
it's really effective and it's a change versus dollar battle.
10:19
So the chain, the silver is for the person, but any green dollar
10:25
bills in the bucket counts against them.
10:28
And so the boys are trying to collect as much silver as they
10:31
can for their bucket, but then putting dollar bills in the
10:34
girls bucket. And the girls are trying to put
10:37
silver in their bucket and the dollar bills in the boys bucket.
10:41
And so if the boys had $45.00 in change, but $50 and $1.00 bills
10:47
or, or a $50.00 bill, it would negative that.
10:50
And so they would actually have -5 and so whoever has the most
10:54
money at the end, after they negative it out, is the winner.
10:58
And so it's a way to, yeah, not worry about the pennies, but go
11:01
silver in dollars. Or you can do the other way.
11:04
Dollars count for you and silver's count against you.
11:07
You know, however you want to do it.
11:09
But it's a fun way to do that and still raise money.
11:11
And, and you know, every year, whatever the money we raise goes
11:15
to some type of mission project, our pregnancy center, our
11:18
mission trip, something in our community to help back out.
11:22
So we're not like talking to the money or anything.
11:24
Yeah, I've never heard of that. That is pretty interesting.
11:28
Yeah. So what else we got going on,
11:31
James? I don't think we got anything
11:33
else going on coming down the Pike.
11:34
On our schedule no do want to just we haven't mentioned in a
11:37
couple weeks. If you've never checked out our
11:39
cigar page, go by and check it out AT689 Cigars for Freedom
11:43
Back Slash. That links are always in the
11:46
show notes here and you can support us that way.
11:49
Support the show by purchasing sample pack, one of our full
11:52
Freedom Experience box. We just got a couple of those
11:55
left before we run out of soap and coffee before we restock
11:58
this summer. And so if you want to go and get
12:01
some of those last ones, they're there and available for you.
12:04
If you want to check out my newest book from Brokenness to
12:07
Freedom, me and John put that together.
12:09
The link is in the show notes as well.
12:11
And we've given away all of our free copies and I think Brett
12:15
may still have, I don't know if you gave away all of yours.
12:17
I know John has a couple left as well, but we want to make sure
12:21
that that can be a blessing to you.
12:23
And I always appreciate any of the feedback from those things.
12:27
And thank you again for just supporting the show and
12:31
supporting what we've got going on.
12:33
Brett, we are excited about the episode coming up and that's
12:37
let's jump right into our cold open today of the episode with
12:42
Jim Jones and spiritual manipulation and what that looks
12:45
like. For freedom, He set me free.
12:49
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee.
12:52
Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing peace, cigars
12:55
and victory. Justified.
12:56
Released. Welcome to the for Freedom
13:00
podcast This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel
13:05
for everyday. Christians.
13:06
With everyday issues, I ain't. Saved by dress codes, not about
13:10
what I eat. I'm covered in the
13:12
righteousness. Washed from head to feet.
13:14
No tally of tradition. No man made code.
13:17
Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
13:19
They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise.
13:22
But my prey still ascends past the legalist cries.
13:25
Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
13:27
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
13:30
He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with Saints.
13:32
Slipping grace from the bottle. No room for face.
13:35
I like one for liberty. Toast to the king.
13:38
Every ash of sermon. Death has lost its sting.
13:41
For freedom He set me free, Not for change, not for guilt, not
13:45
for Pharisee Grace let the flame now puffing, peace, cigars and
13:49
victory justified released. For freedom, He set me free.
13:54
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee.
13:57
Grace, let the flame now puffing peace, cigars and victory
14:00
justified released. Let grace begin now.
14:08
Here are. Your hosts James Seyfried and
14:14
Brett Martin. By the late 1978, Jonestown was
14:28
becoming a major concern for the US government.
14:31
You may ask why was this becoming a concern?
14:34
Why did the government have any idea or thoughts or care about
14:38
what's going on with this organization that's running
14:40
about 1000 people in South America, in Guyana, down here in
14:45
this region? Well, what was going on was
14:48
family members of the temple followers begin writing to
14:52
Congress. I began writing to the
14:54
representative and saying things like this, my daughter is being
14:58
held against her will in this organization.
15:01
This idea, this thought of a cult was beginning to come up.
15:06
Some were saying we can't even contact our siblings.
15:09
I can't reach out to my brother. He there's no way to reach out
15:12
to him. There's no phone, there's no
15:13
radio, there's no e-mail. There's nothing that I can do to
15:16
get a hold of my brother. He's been isolated in this third
15:19
world country. I fear for my mother's safety.
15:22
I fear that something is going to happen to her and I can't
15:27
help her or figure out what's going on.
15:30
Former members like Deborah Layton published A sworn
15:33
affidavit describing these type of living environments.
15:37
This is what she said. She said we were being starved
15:41
beyond recognition. Food was scarce.
15:43
There was nothing there for us. We were being rationed down to
15:47
very little amounts of food every single day.
15:50
The labor was being forced upon us as we were in labor camps.
15:54
It felt like we were grueling day and night, 18 hours a day,
15:59
working in the fields, taking care of each other, having to
16:02
figure out medical ways to do this.
16:04
There were armed guards all around the barricades.
16:09
There were armed guards around the walls, and they were
16:12
patrolling us a hundred, 100% of the time.
16:14
And we couldn't walk or move or do anything without them having
16:18
their eyes on us. We were told they were there to
16:22
protect us from the outside, but Deborah said that it began to be
16:26
that we knew we were being protected to stay inside, not
16:30
being protected from the outside.
16:33
And then in the same affidavit, she went on to say that they
16:35
were being staged to have these suicide drills.
16:39
This is how we know that these White Night events happen
16:41
because of the recordings of the things that were there, but also
16:45
from this affidavit from Deborah, who told us that she
16:49
had the suicide deal drills in their life.
16:54
And she ended her testimony with a chilling sentence.
16:58
This was her sentence. If Jim Jones is not stopped,
17:03
people will die. Congressman Leo Ryan, a man
17:08
known for his hands on investigation, decided to go to
17:12
Guyana himself. He brought a group of reporters,
17:16
concerned family members that were, had family members that
17:20
were inside the organization, but also had people there that
17:24
they were closely tied to. He brought legal aids with them
17:28
and he brought a camera crew on the board.
17:32
This plane that he piloted down that he didn't pilot, that he he
17:36
got on and went down to Guyana. They flew into the Port Kaituma
17:40
in November 17th of 1979. They began to land and and get
17:46
there. And he didn't know that what he
17:49
was doing was he was stepping into a powder keg that was about
17:54
to explode. You know, this was the first
18:09
time someone with real authority had challenged Jones in his new
18:14
territory. And you know, James, that's
18:16
that's the problem. When you have an entire system
18:20
built on control and then you get got someone come in who
18:24
can't be intimidated, you've got someone that comes in that has
18:29
some power, power enough to expose what's really going on
18:35
and can shake things up. And that really threw a monkey
18:38
wrench into Jim Jones's plan of what was going on.
18:44
Yeah, the manipulative leader Jim Jones and himself began to
18:48
panic. He began to go into the
18:50
spiraling of out of controlness because the outside truth was
18:55
coming in and. They were about to expose the
18:59
control that. He had and be able to expose the
19:03
enemy's control and and. You can if you.
19:06
Watch some of that. There's a documentary out there
19:08
on Hulu, I believe it is, where they they document Leo Ryan's
19:12
arrival. And it was telegraphed they they
19:17
had to ask for permission to come in and eventually they
19:20
allowed him to come in. But in this whole time, like you
19:23
can see, people were on edge. And we may get to it here, but
19:27
people begin slipping notes to Ryan, and then those notes begin
19:32
to get back to Jim Jones. And now all of a sudden, this
19:35
whole thing that was going on, this whole control that Jim
19:39
Jones thought he had his thumb on, everyone began to slowly
19:42
unravel and untie itself. And the the panic in him and in
19:49
his voice is very unsettling. Exactly.
19:53
You know, Jones could control the narrative inside Jonestown,
19:58
but he couldn't control a congressman with a camera crew.
20:01
And when you have control over people like that, the probably
20:06
number one thing that's important is that you control
20:09
the narrative. And that was something that he
20:13
he could not do anymore. Brett, before you read this
20:16
narration part, I want to set the scene for you as you walk
20:19
into this. Most of our listeners have seen
20:23
a Lester Roloff or a Boys and girls home who comes to your
20:27
church and they stand up and they they sing and they give
20:30
testimony and, and you can tell it.
20:34
The entire thing is rehearsed. The entire thing is memorized.
20:37
They know exactly when to raise their hand.
20:39
They know exactly when to say what they're going to say that.
20:43
Put that picture in your. Mind as Brett's about to go to
20:46
this narration because. Leo Ryan walks into Jonestown
20:51
and he walks into a scene that was set up from Hollywood.
20:56
Jim Jones is the director, he's the producer and he's setting
21:00
the stage for what Leo Ryan is going to walk into.
21:09
When Ryan reached Jonestown, the people welcomed him with
21:12
rehearsed smiles. Music was playing in the
21:17
background. Children were dancing all over.
21:21
You could hear the laughter echo all over the compound.
21:25
It looked like a paradise on earth.
21:29
Jones had prepped his followers to say all the right things, to
21:35
hit their marks, to be in their place.
21:38
But cracks began to appear quickly.
21:43
While the party was going on and happening, and it looked like
21:46
everybody was having a good time.
21:49
One Temple member quietly slipped a note into a reporter's
21:53
hand. It read Help us get out of
21:57
Jonestown. Then another family approached
22:01
Ryan privately, privately, then another, and then another.
22:07
People didn't want freedom for themselves and wanted it for
22:12
their children. And Jones began to sense the
22:15
ship that was happening as more members expressed desire to
22:21
leave. He looked visibly shaking.
22:25
His authority was slipping. The facade was coming off.
22:31
The mask was being taken down. Tried everything he could.
22:37
He tried to charm Ryan. He tried to intimidate him.
22:42
He tried guilt every trick he had in his back.
22:47
The congressman refused to back down when Ryan announced the
22:52
next morning. Anyone who wishes to leave with
22:56
me is free to do so. A collective gasp swept across
23:02
the pavilion. Jones had lost control, survivor
23:08
Olita O'Neill recalled. You could see the rage in Jim's
23:13
face. He looked like a cornered
23:17
animal. Brett, in that moment, Jones
23:26
entire system began to crumble and to collapse and to become
23:32
nothing. And all it was was for someone
23:36
to offer a different reality, someone to offer something that
23:40
they thought was it possible they thought I had sold my soul
23:43
to the devil? There's no way I could leave.
23:46
I have to stay here. There's no escape from where I'm
23:49
at. I have to make it look like it.
23:52
It's paradise, but on the outside, but on the inside, I am
23:56
in a living hell. I am in something that I never
23:59
signed up to be in. And now I have this guy who's
24:02
coming who is offering me a way out.
24:06
Jones, in this moment, he knew and he began to feel that he was
24:12
no longer the savior at one point.
24:14
And if you go back in the history, he was the savior of
24:16
these people, right? He's faking healings.
24:18
He's paying bills behind people's backs.
24:21
He's going and he's he's doing things and he's feeding people.
24:24
He was the savior that they thought they needed.
24:27
And then all of a sudden, Leo Rhyme steps into the scene and
24:30
he goes, hey, you want out of this?
24:32
I'll take you out. We'll take you home.
24:34
We got a plane waiting at the airstrip at Fort Katuma.
24:37
And we'll, we'll take you home and we'll let you we'll let you
24:40
be reunited. And all of a sudden, you'll be
24:42
able to see your mom and dad. You'll be able to see your
24:44
brother and sister. You'll be able to see your kids
24:46
again. Because some of these were older
24:48
people that were being basically put to slave labor.
24:52
You know, and that's the power of truth.
24:54
It doesn't need to overwhelm the lie, it just needs to exist long
24:58
enough for people to see it 'cause that's the thing about
25:01
lies. Lies survive in, in isolation.
25:04
They survive when people think, you know, I'm the only one that
25:07
sees this. And everybody kind of keeps
25:10
these feelings that you're saying that people are having.
25:13
They kind of keep these things on the inside.
25:16
They don't dare speak them out loud.
25:19
They think they're the only ones like that.
25:21
But then, you know, when you know, Ryan comes up and the
25:26
cracks start to show, they're no longer thinking, man, I'm the
25:31
only one that feels this way. The truth shows up and it gives
25:36
people permission to question everything.
25:40
People begin to realize I'm not crazy.
25:43
And that reminds me so much of of my own story because, you
25:49
know, I was under the thumb of a man of God and and I was raised
25:54
in a very cult like atmosphere, maybe not to this extreme, but
25:59
definitely hearkening to it. And you know, there's a there's
26:03
a little part of you that on the inside feels that this isn't
26:06
right. You don't dare say anything
26:08
until an event happens that leads you to question your
26:13
reality. You've been told that your
26:16
judgement is wrong for so long. You believe it until something
26:20
happens that, whoa, you know, I need to ask some questions.
26:23
You have that awakening moment. And this offer to get on this
26:29
plane with this congressman was an awakening moment for a lot of
26:34
people here in Jonestown. Yeah, it reminds me as a study
26:38
through history, I came to mind literally as you got to talk
26:42
about that, and I looked up just to make sure I was right.
26:44
But it reminded me of like Martin Luther, right?
26:46
Martin Luther is 99 theses that he nailed to the wall and part
26:51
of his theses was the truth will set you free.
26:55
John 832 the truth will set you free.
26:58
And and all of a sudden he he began to say the what what is
27:01
the Catholic, his teaching is wrong.
27:03
And all of a sudden the the Catholic teaching of this moment
27:08
in this time, they began to feel like they were losing that same
27:11
control. And so they had to lash out and
27:14
excommunicated Luther. And eventually, you know, the
27:18
horrible things happen. But but as you think through
27:21
that, the truth in our life will begin to set us free as well.
27:25
And and Leo Ryan came with the real truth and said, you thought
27:29
you were captured here. You thought there was no way
27:31
escape. I'm giving you a way out.
27:34
And all of a sudden, in this moment, when the manipulator
27:38
loses control, they all respond the exact same way.
27:42
We've seen it in the ISB, we've seen it in our own lives, we've
27:46
seen it in other individuals. But what happens is when they
27:49
lose control, they escalate the situation.
27:51
They escalate to. How can I recapture and re
27:55
control and and double down on what I've done?
27:58
Because I am the savior. I am the guy that's in charge
28:01
and they begin to escalate every moment of happens.
28:04
Exactly. Before you read your next
28:06
section in my story, you know that in my testimony, that's the
28:12
same thing. I started sending out resumes.
28:16
I started, you know, looking to go to other churches.
28:19
And when that man who was in charge of me saw that he was
28:24
losing his control and losing his grip, he escalated things,
28:28
brought me in his office, screamed at me, hit his desk.
28:33
I mean, I've never been screamed at like I had been screamed at
28:37
that day. I've never seen him get that
28:40
angry. And it was because he was losing
28:43
control over me. And you know, it took me about a
28:48
week after that to see what was really going on.
28:51
But you're exactly right. They escalate whenever they
28:54
control starts to slip. Around two dozen Temple members
29:03
chose to leave with Congressman Ryan that day.
29:07
Jones allowed them to go, at least publicly.
29:09
And I want to interject her in this moment and say there was 1.
29:13
You have this on video. I believe if I remember
29:15
correctly, there was one individual that gave his
29:18
children over to Leo Ryan and said take my children and save
29:21
my children. But I'll stay back as sort of
29:24
the sacrifice for my children because I don't want Ryan coming
29:27
after them or me. If if, if I stay here, he'll be
29:30
happy if I just appease to that. So behind the scenes, Jones was
29:36
absolutely crumbling in his authority.
29:39
He was crumbling in what he was doing.
29:41
And So what he did was he dispatched his armed guards.
29:45
His guards were known as the Red Brigade to follow this group.
29:50
They were going to follow this tractor that's.
29:53
Go on this makeshift Dr. that was there and you can see the
29:56
pictures of these in the videos and they begin to follow this.
30:00
A group that was leaving that Port Katuma airstrip.
30:05
Ryan escorted the defectors toward two small planes.
30:08
Most of them had gotten onto the planes.
30:11
Most of them were there, some of the camera crew.
30:13
Was still outside recording these individuals getting onto
30:17
the planes and some of the the individuals.
30:20
Like I said, were already on there and buckled and ready to
30:22
go. And as they were doing this, the
30:25
the truck arrives and it comes around the corner of the two
30:28
planes. Armed men jump out with their
30:32
weapons drawn, and nothing has been done.
30:35
There's this moment of standstill.
30:36
There's this moment of what's going to happen.
30:39
And. They began to, to see the, the
30:42
cameraman lock eyes with the, the soldiers that are there, the
30:46
Red Brigade that's there. And they begin to, to see the
30:49
weapons and they begin to shout out, hey, get down, get down.
30:52
And in that moment the men jumped down and began opening
30:56
fire. The ambush was brutal.
31:00
Congressman Leo Ron was shot. Over 20 * 3 News crew members
31:05
were killed instantaneously. One Temple defector was murdered
31:10
as she ran. Ryan became the first US
31:14
Congress member to ever be assassinated in the line of
31:18
duty. 7 individuals took off running to the woods.
31:23
As they got to the woods they ducked under some brush.
31:26
One man looked down and and then saw his leg was bleeding and had
31:30
been just obliterated by bullets and somehow made a tourniquet
31:34
and was able to get safe and was able to to to actually make his
31:38
way the next day back to safety because they hid in that jungle
31:43
overnight fearing that they were going to come after them and
31:46
kill them and execute them for leaving.
31:49
Word of the attack began to travel back to Jonestown.
31:53
Jones knew what it meant. He knew that the moment Leo Ryan
31:59
was killed, there was no going back.
32:01
There was no going back to the way the society was.
32:04
There was no going back to the way that he had it.
32:07
And one member, Odell Rhodes, remembered that when the word
32:12
that Ryan was dead. Came across Jim, Jones said to
32:17
him. It's over.
32:19
They're coming for us all now. That is where the reality and
32:32
the delusion collide. Jones had preached for years
32:36
that the government was after them.
32:39
We've got these guards, we've been practicing our white
32:41
Knights, we've been doing everything we've been told to do
32:44
because if we don't, if we're not ready for it, they're going
32:47
to come. After us.
32:48
And now they've came. They broke through these walls,
32:52
they took one of your own. Now they're coming after us.
32:56
They're going to come armed guards.
32:58
The full scale might of the military is on its way.
33:02
I mean, you can just hear this rattling through their eyes and
33:05
through their ears, right? They, they've came.
33:07
They've taken one of our own. Now this congressman has been
33:10
killed. They're coming for us all now.
33:13
So this is the moment. This is the lynchpin of
33:15
everything. They are going to come after us.
33:19
And now because of his own violence, this fear became self
33:24
fulfilling. This was really James.
33:26
This was a self fulfilling prophecy.
33:30
I mean, the very thing that he feared is the very thing he
33:33
created. Now it wasn't paranoia anymore.
33:37
Now it wasn't imagined anymore. Now the threat was real.
33:42
The danger was real. The white Knights that we had
33:45
been preparing for this, this like sometimes when you're in
33:49
school, you have a fire drill or or tornado drill and you have so
33:54
many that when the real thing happens, people say this is not
33:58
a drill and the drill time is over now.
34:01
It's now. It's real.
34:02
The this is this from here on out.
34:05
This is not a drill. Yeah, today, at the time of this
34:10
recording, my wife texted me this morning and she said,
34:13
James, it's like 830 or something.
34:15
The fire alarms are going off at the school.
34:17
It's not a drill. We're all outside and we don't
34:20
know what's going on. The fire trucks are here.
34:22
The alarms wouldn't stop going off.
34:24
Apparently a smoke detector went faulty and kept tripping the
34:27
alarm no matter what. But there was no fire there.
34:29
And she said, I don't know if we're going to have to go home
34:31
or not because we're just out here, right?
34:34
This is the moment. Like we've practiced the fire
34:37
drills and this is not a drill. Get outside and this is what the
34:40
what is building up to the not a drill is happening.
34:44
Regulators create their own crisis to claim to begin to
34:49
protect you. From the crisis they created,
34:52
Jones did the same thing. Couple of years ago when I first
34:56
took over, the pastor right here, there was a church, a
35:00
larger church, I'm not going to mention it, just right down the
35:02
road from our church. And the pastor had been called
35:07
in the scandal and there was some things going on and it was
35:09
the middle of the day and he went out and had gotten drunk.
35:13
And from what the stories that I know and and and was in a moment
35:18
of fleeting because everything that he had built was sifting
35:21
through his hands. And he stood outside of a
35:25
school, a preschool. Right in between a preschool and
35:28
an elementary school. Building on the cross street and
35:33
ran his car off the road and into a telephone pole.
35:36
Tried to commit suicide. And in this moment, he was
35:39
unsuccessful. And so he rolls out of the car
35:41
and the the police show up and he's out of his mind and he's
35:44
going crazy. He's waving a gun around and
35:48
said that he was on the scene. The cops were on the scene for
35:50
45 minutes trying to get him to talk him down.
35:54
And in one moment, he actually discharged his gun toward a
35:58
laundromat. And.
36:00
Went through the glass window and and almost hit somebody, but
36:03
it didn't and and he did this because what?
36:07
In the world of a cop. They say that this is suicide by
36:11
cop. I tried to commit suicide.
36:13
I'm going to do everything. I can for the.
36:15
Cops to kill me so that I don't have to live anymore.
36:18
But I didn't kill myself. The cops did.
36:21
And so in this moment, the one of the officers that I talked to
36:24
later was a church member, was a Deacon at his church, and he
36:28
said I had to stand there with my firearm.
36:30
Pulled. Toward my pastor and for 45
36:35
minutes I had to talk him off of the ledge and he was wanting me
36:39
to shoot him, to kill him, but I couldn't do it.
36:43
He said, finally we got him to put his gun down and we cuffed
36:46
him and we took him to the hospital and we put him in the
36:49
psych ward and we we put him under suicide watch.
36:52
But all of that was done to create this moment because he no
36:56
longer had control. And he was trying to set the
36:59
narrative that the cops were the bad guys and they're the ones
37:02
that killed me. And he would be set free and
37:05
justified in what he was doing. And this is what was happening
37:08
in this situation. Jones knew that he was called.
37:11
Jones knew that now people were talking about this.
37:14
And now Jonestown has has has unleashed this attack on the
37:20
congressman and now they're coming after us.
37:23
And so the only thing we can do is, is, is, is end our own lives
37:28
before they end our life. And so this is the evening here
37:33
that we begin the final meeting that happens.
37:36
And we may play some clips here of some things while Brett's
37:39
reading to sort of set the tone of what's going on.
37:42
But, but we'll, we'll see how it goes.
37:52
On the evening of November 18th, 1978, Jim Jones stood before the
37:57
community for the last time. A recording, later called The
38:02
Death Tape, captured the moment Jones told his followers the US
38:08
military would invade. What?
38:10
Happened here in a matter of a few minutes.
38:13
Is that one of those people on that plane is going to going to
38:16
shoot the pilot? I know that I didn't plan it,
38:18
but I know it's going to happen. We're going to shoot that pilot
38:22
and down comes that plane into the jungle and we had better not
38:27
have any of our children left when it's over because they'll
38:29
parachute in here on us. I'm trying to just as plain as I
38:34
know how to tell you. I've never lied to you.
38:37
Their children would be tortured.
38:41
They would be taken as slaves. Death was their only escape.
38:47
This was revolutionary suicide. People begged, some crying, some
38:55
screamed, but others, too tired, too conditioned, too afraid,
39:04
accepted that their leaders words were absolute truth.
39:10
The bravest voice that night belonged to Christine Miller,
39:14
the only member who stood up and publicly challenged Jones.
39:18
Out of almost 1000 people, she was the only one that stood up,
39:24
she said. I feel we have a right to choose
39:27
our own life and I don't think it's right to take the life of
39:31
those children. Too long together.
39:36
I I know that, but I still think as an individual I have a right?
39:40
You do, and I'm listening. What I think, what I feel, and I
39:45
think we all have a right to our own destiny as individuals.
39:48
Right. And I think I have a right to
39:51
choose mine and everybody else has a right to choose theirs,
39:54
you know? I'm not criticized, I'm not
39:58
German. What's that go?
40:06
Ahead, Jones dismissed her, talked over her.
40:10
He began to mock her. This is the moment manipulation
40:15
became murder. And you know, this is just a
40:25
heartbreaking scene. She she's the only one brave
40:30
enough to stand up and speak truth in a room full of fear.
40:35
And and like we said, out of almost 1000 people, she's the
40:39
only one that that stood up and spoke out.
40:44
Everybody else just kind of was too afraid or had accepted the
40:48
fact that what Jim was saying was true.
40:51
Yeah, we see this over and over and over again.
40:55
Manipulators always try to silence the most honest voice
40:58
they can find. They don't debate it.
41:01
They don't try to destroy it. They try to silence it.
41:03
They try to destroy it by any means necessary.
41:07
There's a I've, I've been listening to Jason Whitlock.
41:13
I'm a sports guy. I love sports.
41:16
And him and Stephen A Smith have been going back and forth over
41:19
this debate, back and forth of, of, of who's right and who's
41:23
wrong, who's telling the truth and who's not.
41:25
And, and the one underlying thing continues to happen.
41:29
One person, no matter what, is telling the truth.
41:31
And one person is telling a lot. I don't know because I'm not
41:33
there. I don't know each of these guys
41:35
personally. But what happens is, is in this
41:38
moment that one person is trying to manipulate and silence the
41:42
other person. They're trying to discredit
41:44
them. They're trying to destroy them.
41:45
They're trying to say that everything they've ever said is
41:47
wrong. And they they can never tell the
41:49
truth in any way possible. And this is what manipulators
41:52
do. They get up and they say, you
41:53
know what? I'm the honest voice.
41:55
I'm the one that's right. Why would you begin to even
41:57
trust these guys? The, the news media takes over,
42:01
you know, recently in the news, the Duggars right there, the,
42:04
the son and his wife have been taken in custody and there's a
42:08
court proceeding going on and, and all the things that are
42:10
going on, well, someone's going to get up and say, hey, hey.
42:14
There's this is all lies, this is all made-up.
42:18
You know, these guys were innocent and, and one side's
42:20
going to have a story to tell. And the side that begins to try
42:25
to destroy in silence and and kill everything off, it's
42:29
typically the side that's trying to manipulate things versus
42:32
laying out the facts. Right.
42:34
And you know this lady's courage, Miller, her courage
42:37
should be remembered. She stood up for hundreds of
42:40
children. But you know, you, you, you
42:43
listen to the tapes and go back and you hear what was going on.
42:46
They had not necessarily an object.
42:49
So a lot of people had not necessarily an objection to the
42:52
suicide. They had an objection to hurting
42:55
the children that for some of them that was a line not even
42:59
they wanted to cross. But Jim Jones was heartless man,
43:07
heartless, ruthless, crazy, and he did not care anything about
43:13
the children. I, I know some about this story
43:17
and I forget who it was, but there was one lady who did not
43:21
drink. We'll get to that in a minute.
43:23
They did not drink the poison because she wanted to make sure
43:27
the children were quote UN quote OK and she want to make sure all
43:31
the children were taken care of before she partook.
43:38
And it's just a heartbreaking scene.
43:42
And as we jump into this last two narrations, this one if
43:46
you've got children listening, again, like we said last week,
43:49
this is some graphic parts of here that we go through.
43:53
And so just forewarning beforehand as we walk through
43:57
this this this next to last narration
44:11
large pot was placed on a table inside the pavilion.
44:16
Jones ordered all to become to the Pavilion for.
44:20
This sermon that he was going to preach, this instruction that he
44:23
was going to give, and he instructed all of his.
44:26
Followers to place inside of this large pot.
44:32
They could not afford kool-aid and so they had what was called
44:34
Flavor Aid. Flavor Aid was there mixed with
44:38
water to have a Kool-aid drink. Just as they had done before,
44:42
right they had. They practiced this over and
44:45
over and over again. Another white.
44:47
Knight is happening at this time.
44:50
The flavor aid and water were mixed with cyanide,
44:55
chlorohydrate and tranquilizers that you would give horses and
44:59
large animals to put them. Down nurses and guards filled
45:03
syringes, they had cups prepared on the tables and Jim Jones got
45:10
up and he commanded the parents to bring their children 1st and
45:16
to bring them forward. Screams echoed throughout the
45:19
pavilion. Some resisted.
45:22
His own wife resisted. Some were forced.
45:27
Some were even held down and and force fed with this syringe.
45:32
There's one recording where a young man, you can hear him
45:36
coming forward and he's yelling at Jim Jones.
45:39
He's cursing at Jim Jones. How dare you do this?
45:42
Jim steps up to the mic and he says, son, drink it.
45:48
In that moment he stops. He turns around, he picks up the
45:53
cup that he drinks. That's how much control and
45:57
power he had. And in this moment, as children
46:02
are being watched and as Jones is standing from his throne like
46:06
chair and cups were handed to the adults and syringes were.
46:10
Pressed. Into the mouth of the infants.
46:13
Jones sat there, quiet, almost somber, like his final words as
46:21
children were dying all around him.
46:24
Don't be afraid, don't be afraid.
46:27
Death is just stepping over. I would suspect die with a
46:32
degree of dignity. Lay down your life with dignity.
46:36
Don't lay down with tears and agony.
46:39
There's nothing to death is like Max that is just stepping over
46:42
in another plane. Don't.
46:44
Don't be this way. It took about 20 minutes for the
46:48
children to die, less than that for the adults as they began to
46:55
take through this and as they began to.
46:57
Walk through this. Time.
46:59
Within about an hour, around 900 people had drank the Kool-aid
47:05
and about 900 people took their lives on this day.
47:22
You know, people always ask how could they do this?
47:26
But the better question is how were they conditioned to do
47:30
this? We, we have to remember from the
47:33
White Knight episode is that this wasn't sudden.
47:37
This was months and years of reinforcement and conditioning
47:43
and and little by little their minds were shaped and
47:46
brainwashed to follow. Without question, these people
47:52
were being manipulated and they were being taught not to trust
47:58
their own judgement. And you know, this is a really
48:01
sad situation, but it just goes to show you the power that
48:06
someone can have over other people's minds.
48:10
Yeah, this, this is exactly what you're saying right here.
48:14
How, how were they conditioned for this?
48:17
We as a society are conditioned for multiple different things.
48:22
You, you look back on history and even just a couple of years
48:25
ago with the COVID right, as the government said, well, hey,
48:30
we're going to slow the spread and we're going to mask up.
48:32
And everyone universally did it. But we didn't question the
48:36
science. We didn't question anything.
48:38
Until years later, and this is the same thing here, right?
48:41
We have been that they have been manipulated, that what Jim Jones
48:45
says is truth. I want you to really put
48:48
yourself in this picture. I want you to really put
48:50
yourself. In the idea of what Jim Jones
48:53
was preaching and saying, he would get up.
48:56
And he would say, I'm your savior, the government's the
48:59
enemy. One day they're going to come
49:01
through these gates and. They're going to come for you.
49:05
And he preached that time and time and time again.
49:09
And now all of a sudden, while they were in Los Angeles, some
49:13
some conflict was happening. The government was investigating
49:16
them. Hey, we've got to go to Guyana
49:18
now. We're down here.
49:19
They know we're here. They're coming after us.
49:21
They're going to come after us. They're going to do it again.
49:23
And all of a sudden, what happens?
49:25
A congressman walks through their gates.
49:28
Jim Jones. He's right.
49:30
They're coming after us. They're they're, they're coming
49:33
after us. And, and now he's gone and now
49:36
he's been killed and they're going to blame it on us.
49:39
They're going to come after us as well.
49:41
The day of reckoning is coming. The government's coming after
49:44
us. I told you this.
49:45
This has been going on for years.
49:46
I've been telling you, I've been warning you.
49:48
Why do you think we've been practicing?
49:50
Why do you think we've been doing all these things?
49:52
And the years of manipulation, the years of fear, the years of
49:55
isolation, the years of brokenness, the years of the
49:59
identity in the People's Temple movement, and then the years of
50:04
dependent on Jim Jones led to this moment where, well, Jim was
50:10
right about everything. Else he has to be right about
50:13
this. Why would I?
50:15
Question him. He's been right, all.
50:17
Along this is how this manipulation of madness, this
50:21
moment of vadnais, brings us to this moment.
50:26
If you break a person's sense of self, you can fill it with
50:31
anything, even death disguised as loyalty.
50:35
All it takes is convincing someone to stop trusting their
50:39
own judgment. And then you insert somebody
50:42
with power, you insert somebody with charisma, and that's a
50:48
deadly combination. Let's talk about the final
50:52
scene. Yeah, report before we do that,
50:55
there was a documentary that I watched a couple of months ago
50:58
and it talked about how someone was able to break someone's
51:01
wheel and they said it's actually easier than what you
51:05
think. The the way you break someone's
51:07
wheel is really is 3 steps. You isolate them away from
51:11
everyone else, you control everything they do and say, and
51:17
then you deprive them of sleep and food.
51:23
The guy actually in this documentary, he said within 24
51:28
to 48 hours, you can break someone's will by simply sleep,
51:33
depriving them, controlling their food and water intake and
51:38
isolating them from everyone else.
51:40
He said most people within 36 to 48 hours, when you do that, if
51:44
you starve someone, you put them in a room by themselves and you
51:48
control everything they hear and think and, and, and play loud
51:51
music on the wall. You can come in and you can
51:54
empty out that person's wheel within that much time.
51:58
So think about that. Jonestown had done this on a
52:01
larger scale with 900 people, right?
52:04
He's making them work 18 to 20 hours, he's controlling their
52:08
their sleep schedule, he's making them listen to him all
52:11
the time. And now all of a sudden, he is
52:14
the one that has broken their will and rebuilt it the way he
52:17
wanted it to be. Jim Jones was found dead on the
52:34
Pavilion 4, not by poison, but from a single gunshot wound to
52:40
the head. Now there's a debate on whether
52:43
he shot himself or he had someone else do it, but either
52:48
way, he escaped. The agony could be forced on
52:51
hundreds in the jungle of humidity.
52:55
The body swelled and bloated. The bright clothing created a
53:00
mosaic of death photographs with shock of the world.
53:06
America learned the word Jonestown in phrases like drink.
53:10
The Kool-aid became a part of the culture, a glib slogan born
53:17
from unimaginable pain. Now I'll tell you, growing up, I
53:22
heard the phrase drink the kool-aid before I ever knew
53:26
anything about Jonestown. I had always heard that.
53:30
But whenever you hear this story and you see the result, you see
53:36
the hypocrisy of Jim Jones making everyone else jump
53:41
through hoops that he himself was not willing to jump through.
53:45
And I've saw many different documentaries on this.
53:51
I've read many different things on this.
53:53
I'm convinced he had someone else shoot him and having
53:58
someone else shoot him was the ultimate act of cowardice.
54:04
And it says more about him than 1000 words ever could.
54:10
And while he didn't mind killing these children, for instance,
54:16
his child was off playing basketball and and wasn't here
54:20
for this. And so Jim Jones was just a
54:25
coward. And like I said, I've always
54:27
heard the phrase drink the kool-aid man.
54:30
And before I knew anything about Jonestown, I've heard that.
54:37
Yeah, I agree. I agree with your statement.
54:40
I believe the more I've investigated this and looked
54:43
into it, I think that Jim Jones commanded one of his guards to
54:47
shoot him. And right before he told him
54:49
that he told them to drink the kool-aid after they shot him.
54:54
And they were so sold out to believe in every word that Jim
54:59
Jones said that they did that. And then they went and drank the
55:02
kool-aid themselves because he wasn't man enough to own up to
55:06
what he was telling the other people to do.
55:09
You know, this is this story is so heartbreaking.
55:13
I, I've watched documentaries, like I said, I've read after
55:15
them and, and every time it breaks my heart.
55:19
And so we, we've covered the story.
55:21
We've covered what's happening. And now we need to talk about
55:24
what it means. And so we're going to continue
55:27
this with one more episode. And we're going to continue
55:30
talking about sort of how you can recognize these things, but
55:34
also some things that we can begin to walk through.
55:36
Brett, what is that? We're going to talk about
55:39
manipulation tactics. We're going to walk through how
55:43
Jones controlled people's minds, how people lost themselves, how
55:49
these patterns still show up today, because we need to
55:53
recognize when somebody's trying to manipulate us.
55:56
Jones is is an extreme example. But there's always going to be
56:01
someone out there that's trying to manipulate you, and you need
56:06
to be able to see the signs and recognize what's going on before
56:11
it's too late. Yeah.
56:12
And the more we can know, the more we can arm ourselves, the
56:17
more we can begin to recognize these things before it gets out
56:21
of hand, like it happened here in Jonestown.
56:23
More importantly, we want to walk through how Scripture gives
56:27
us the tools to see and even resist the manipulation that
56:32
happens. You know it's.
56:34
It's one thing to know about it. But it's another thing to be
56:37
able to actively fight against it once we know about it.
56:41
We know the Wiles and the tricks of the devil.
56:43
Now we have to have the tools in order to fight the devil and to
56:47
fight the demons and to have our minds and our hearts right so
56:50
that he doesn't overtake us, right?
56:52
The the Bible says that the devil reaches for a toehold that
56:56
goes to an ankle hold that eventually pulls us into the
56:59
pit. And so we want to recognize when
57:01
the toehold happened so that he doesn't have any more grip on
57:04
us. And so as we walk through this
57:07
and this last portion and this last part next week, we want to
57:10
give you the tools to be able to do that and biblically align
57:14
with how you can be. And, and, and we're also going
57:17
to talk through what the survivor saw.
57:19
There were some survivors. There wasn't many, but there
57:22
were some that were there and that lived through this.
57:25
And one individual, a man that I believe we're going to talk
57:29
about, who was who was asked to leave to deliver some money.
57:36
And and so he saw what was going on and he left and he gives some
57:40
of his story as well. So stick tuned for us next week
57:44
as we close this series down as we look at that.
57:48
And then we're excited about what we've got coming up in the
57:50
next couple of weeks as well. We hope you'll continue to be
57:52
with us. So until next time, to God be
57:55
the glory. Great things he has done.
57:59
Found my new name, Found that good grace, found that healing.
58:05
And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning has no
58:09
ending. I found my second chance.
58:10
Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness, Found my
58:13
happiness. I've been singing ever since.
58:14
I found my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
58:31
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
58:35
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
58:38
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
58:42
Be sure to join us next time for The Four Freedom Podcast.