Latest / The Fourcast / Israeli strikes on Gaza kill hundreds, Francesca Albanese reacts

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Israeli strikes on Gaza kill hundreds, Francesca Albanese reacts · The Fourcast

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Hello and welcome to The Forecast.
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I'm Krishnan Guru Murthy. My guest this week is the UN
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special rapporteur on the Palestinian Occupied
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Territories, Francesca Albanese. She is an Italian lawyer who for
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the last three years has held this UN appointment.
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But she is persona non grata in Israel and so is not allowed to
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travel there. She's a very controversial
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figure in Israel and her appearances all over the world
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are are often accompanied by vitriolic campaigns against her
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speaking. And she's here in London for a
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series of meetings as we speak. Israel has broken the ceasefire
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overnight. There was a massive bombing
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campaign and Hamas is reporting around 300 people killed so far.
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It's possibly the biggest single loss of life since early on in
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the war after the October 7th attacks.
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And let's begin with that What's your reaction to what has
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happened overnight? Well, hi, thanks for having me.
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First of all, it's not that Israel broke the ceasefire last
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night. Israel has just killed around
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400 people. And this is the acceleration of
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not a war of the genocide that is happening in real time.
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And it has been happening for the for the past 16 months,
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nearly between 45,000 and 50,000 Palestinians have been killed in
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Gaza. And as we speak, Israel has
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ordered the evacuation of the Palestinians in Gaza from the
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north or from the South, which means that the that the
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aggression is going to continue. This is a military strategy
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aiming to ethnically cleanse what remains of Palestine, and
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if the Palestinians do not move voluntarily, this is what waits
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for them. We'll, we'll come to your use of
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the word genocide and why you concluded that in a moment, but
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I just want to put to you what Israel's explanation is they say
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they are. But I don't need to to hear what
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Israel says. Can we centre the discussion on
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international law? And this is not my opinion.
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There is a Commission of inquiry, Amnesty International,
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Israeli historians. I'm fine with responding to any
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questions, but I would like the discussion not to be centred
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about what the government that is led by two leaders who are
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indicted for war crimes and crimes against humanity say so.
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I I want to ask you nicely about the legality of what is going on
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now because Israel says it is targeting Hamas terrorists and
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it says that anybody else killed is a regrettable by products of
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war. Now, what is the legality of
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what they are doing if they are indeed targeting people they
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regard as Hamas? Let's pause for a second
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Krishnan. 18,000 children being a regrettable outcome of war.
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It stinks as a lie and let me tell you, 500 years of genocide
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have been oh sorry, of settler colonial history have been
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supported by this kind of arguments that there is always
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someone who's Barbarians as a terrorist Again, I I do not, I
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do not want to downplay the risks that Israel has faced or
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might still face, but nothing justifies a genocide and the
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destruction of life that has taken place over the last 16
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months in Gaza. All schools, all hospitals,
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farming land and all most of the houses.
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What is this? Why did Israel had to do that in
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another situation? Would you call a a state that
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hits intentionally and voluntarily hospitals, that
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starves an entire defenceless population, because this is what
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it is. Would you call it an outcome of
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war and. It's your use of the word
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intentionally there that Israel disputes, isn't it, that they
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say they are not intentionally hitting civilian targets?
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What are they? They are intentionally hitting
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Hamas targets. So, So what?
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What is the legal? And that's how they say
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everything we're doing is legal. So what?
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What is your legal analysis of of of that?
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OK. The legal analysis is then let's
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assume that it's a conflict, right?
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In a conflict, there are rules and there are principle of
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military necessity that Israel claims to have.
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Well, it is provide it. It is to provide evidence.
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It is to take precautions. It is to respect the principle
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of proportionality in every action it takes.
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How it's possible that in 16 months it has killed 50,000
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people and levelled level to the ground the entire Gaza Strip.
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Very little remains. Not enough to resume life again.
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This is not the first time that a power justifies it's action.
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It's devastation in terms of self defence or in terms of an
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action motivated by annihilating the terrorists.
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This is not the point. But there is there, there are
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rules to spare life, to preserve the sanctity of life and there
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are obligations. Look, again, this is not
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debatable. I mean, I don't my intention is
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not to debate whether it's genocide or not.
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This is past. We have failed to prevent
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genocide. And it's not just me saying that
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the entire human rights community, there is a world to
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world consensus that Israel is committing genocide.
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Like two years ago there was a world to world consensus that
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Israel was maintaining an apartheid regime.
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And I look, I take it that that is very sensitive for, for
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politicians to deal with it. But there are two Israeli
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leaders who are wanted for war crimes and crimes against
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humanity, including starvation. So even if we don't go to the
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genocide analysis, why member states like the UK have not
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honoured their international obligations to intervene and
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stop crimes, including because in January 2024 the
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International Court of Justice, three months into this military
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assault, had concluded that there was a possibility of risk
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of genocide. OK, so, so, so let's explain
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your conclusion that this is genocide.
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Yeah. Because, you know, I think most
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people think, well, it's not up to you to decide that this is
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genocide. It's up to a court of law.
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But you, you. So can you walk me towards your
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conclusion? But that's not true.
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That's not true because otherwise we would OK, let me
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start from the from the beginning.
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So I, because I understand, look, it's, I, I, I want to also
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talk about my journey because I, I was not convinced at all that
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it was genocide. I've been probably among all
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special rapporteurs, I've been the most reluctant to use that
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term. And it has taken me weeks to do
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that because as many Western people, for me, genocide was the
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Holocaust or Rwanda with very specific industrial
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characteristic. But let let me tell you,
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genocide is not defined by personal opinions or historical
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precedents. What constitutes genocides is
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that it's established that Article 2 of the Genocide
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Convention, which defines the the intentional destruction,
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which is intended as physical or biological disruption of a group
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as such through acts of killing, infliction of severe bodily or
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or mental harm, or prevention of birth or the the creation of
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conditions of life calculated to destroy.
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And there is a, a limited, a quite scant jurisprudence, but
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very effective to argue that this genocide can be understood
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as the totality of crimes and actions that Israel has taken
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against the Palestinians as such.
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Because again, I understand that Israel keeps on saying I've been
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targeting Hamas, but it's not true because in fact, it has
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targeted indiscriminately the Palestinian population in Gaza.
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And let me give you an example. When you say indiscriminately.
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Yes, yes, yes, intentionally, indiscriminately.
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Israel has very, very sophisticated military tools and
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very competent lawyers to know what he's doing.
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They are doing this with the knowledge of what they are
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doing. And let me give you an example,
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a critical example. Since October I've been
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documenting what has happened in terms of killing, destruction of
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hospitals, schools, the this total siege that has been
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declared over Gaza. Because let's not forget on the
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first day after October 7th, the former Minister of Defence who's
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wanted by the ICC for war crimes and crimes against humanity,
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said they we are dealing with human animals and they will have
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no water, no food, no medicine, no electricity.
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This was already for many the expression of genocidal intent.
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And this leads to the application of the genocide
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framework. You know why I dispute what you
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are saying, which is the sentiment of many.
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So it's of course I understand, is that the Genocide Convention
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has three obligations to prevent, to stop and then to
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punish genocide. So the court intervenes on that
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late last obligation. But how do we prevent genocide
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if we don't see that happening? And this is the question we have
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already failed to. Prevention aside, and really for
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the benefit of your audience, I would like to say this is not my
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analysis only. There are over 30 special
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rapporteurs from different realm of international law denouncing
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this as genocide. The most prominent Israeli
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genocide historians and scholars have documented this and
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denounced that this is genocide. Amnesty International has put
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out a report of 100 hundreds of pages.
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They saying that is genocide. The reason why, you know, I'm,
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I'm quite frustrated right now is that I spend the night
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looking at what was happening in Gaza where 400 people, I've seen
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bodies of children being collected from the walls.
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You know, I'm tired of seeing bodies of people hanging from
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the walls as you and I in our homes have our coats.
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This is to stop. OK, if you, even if you don't
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want to think that it's genocide, let's make use of what
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the International Court of Justice has said in January
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2024. There is a plausible risk of
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genocide. Therefore, Israel must stop
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conducting the military assault as it's doing.
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It must allow humanitarian aid to enter.
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And few months later, it has also reminded member states who
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have an obligation to prevent genocide so they cannot use.
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Oh, but there is no court decision.
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Let me tell you, most sides have been recognised as not through
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courts. The Aboriginal of Australia, the
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Native Americans in in the US, the the Indigenous First Nation
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made this an an Inuit. In Canada there is no court that
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has established that there was a genocide and this is my fear
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here. We have the opportunity to stop
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it and we are not doing that because we are debating whether
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there is genocide or not. So, so, so, so come again to the
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the question of intent. So you quoted, there are Israeli
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cabinet ministers who have said things that can be taken as
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you've quoted as genocidal intent, you know, or it could be
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argued that they are genocidal intent.
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Even last night we had the Israeli defence minister saying
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that the gates of hell are opening on, on Gaza.
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How do you, how do you prove that that is the and do you need
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to prove that that is the intent of the state as opposed to the
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wild thoughts of individuals within it?
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You know, does genocide need to be proved by what has happened?
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You know, by the reality, by the facts?
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Or do you need to prove intent at the highest level?
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In other words, Netanyahu. Krishna, let me ask you, because
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again, I find this question be puzzling, but I understand that
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you come really from an honest and candid point of wanting to
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explain to people at home what is in the what do you, what do
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you understand by intent? What do people at home think
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that intent is something invisible that it's in the heart
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of of the politicians or the leaders or Because I don't think
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that there is another case where the genocidal, the destructive
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intent is as obvious, as documented, as proven, as
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declared over and over as this one.
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Excuse me, They have said it. I mean, they were saying destroy
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the Hamalek, the mother, the children, the, the, the donkey
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and the camel like it was 16 months ago.
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And now they're saying open the gate of hell.
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And then it's not just it's not just the word spoken, which
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debatably could not be, could be an indication of an intent to
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destroy. The intent to destroy is not the
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reason why this is a motive. And in International Criminal
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law this has another, another value.
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Intent is the determination to destroy and it's made of
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intentions, clearly, but it's made of of policy decisions,
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structures. There is a structure in place.
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There is a chain of command where the words spoken have been
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amplified at every chain of the Israeli army and all the more
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they've been enacted. Do you?
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This is why I say in my last report, I was saying we need to
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understand what is genocide, but not looking for the genocidal
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intent with the magnifier because we wouldn't see that.
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We need to take a step back and look at this tapestry of crimes,
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the totality of crimes committed against the totality of the
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people. As such, this is key.
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You cannot understand genocide if you don't take the
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perspective of the victims, those who are not seen as human.
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They are not seen as doctors, scientists or bakers or priests
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or old people or children. They are just these amorphous
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people whom are are seen as a security threat, therefore have
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to be eliminated. So how do international
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governments in the West respond to you when you make these
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arguments? Do they meet you, for a start?
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Do you get to talk to the people at the highest level of
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government in Western capitals? And how do they respond to your?
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It depends. It depends.
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There are certain countries where whose leaders have held a
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posture of wilful blindness to the facts that have to be
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considered in order to make a legal determination of the
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reality on the ground. Was October the 7th the attack
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an act of genocide or or did it have genocidal intent?
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I I don't think so, but it was the war crimes were committed
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against Israelis. There is no doubt about that.
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So. What's the difference?
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The difference is the is the intent to destroy a people as
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such. Is that not clearly what they
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were trying to do on October the 7th?
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So weren't, weren't they just killing anybody they saw?
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Look. At the interesting posture
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you're taking her, you are questioning me on whether 16
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months of assault on a population where the 70% of the
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victims have steadily been women and children.
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From October 2023 to March 2025, the victims in in in in Gaza
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have steadily been women and children.
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And still you ask me to prove to give you the evidence of
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genocide. But no.
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No, I'm, I'm, I'm asking you about what your analysis is
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because you're very clear that what's happened after October
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the 7th is genocide. I'm asking you, are you clear
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that what happened on October the 7th and the Hamas incursion
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into Israel and killing whoever they came across, was that an
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attempt at genocide? Whatever it was, it doesn't
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justify. I'm not asking you that.
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I'm not asking you that. I'm just.
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Asking you, I'm telling you. In terms of the ACT.
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Itself, I look, I don't think, I don't think it was an act of
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genocide. It was despicable.
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It was a new mean, it was criminal to the extent it hit
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civilians. And it has been also documented
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by the Commission of inquiry who has investigated what has
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happened inside Israel. And I'm not going to, to
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question that. I've condemned the the the
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killing of Israeli civilians from the very first moment and
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so the abduction of civilians. But whatever the reason why I'm
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saying that is that since the very first hours, there have
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been people in Israel saying, oh, we have been victims of a
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genocide, which has, which has been used with all the also the
16:39
misinformation that has followed to portray the Palestinians as
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an existential threat for what they had allegedly supported
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happening on on October 7th and therefore justifying the brutal
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revengeful response that had happened.
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But this is the beauty of international law, that the
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Genocide Convention says whatever, whatever the reason,
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whatever, self-defense, even self defence, doesn't justify a
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genocide. Yeah, but that that's a separate
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question as to what justifies. I'm just asking you in terms of
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what happened, You're, you're clear it was war crimes, it was
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illegal because what, what you've also said in the past is
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that there is a right to resist. Of course.
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So, so, so just explain what is you know, Do you see what
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happened as October the 7th as resistance?
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Or was it straightforwardly war crimes, illegal and terrible?
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I'm glad you're asking this question because I think there
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is so much confusion. So in international law people
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who are under oppression and under foreign domination have a
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right to resist as and this is similar to what state has a
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state has a self defence. So state have their sovereignty.
17:56
So state that exist have to be protected in their sovereign
18:00
space and if they are threatened by another state they have the
18:04
right to use war, to use force in the form of self defence.
18:08
A people in have a right of self determination so a right to
18:13
exist as a people in a given land.
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Therefore, when they are oppressed, when they have to
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protect the right of self, so. That means Hamas has the right
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to to fight within Gaza. No, again you are taking me to a
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space which is not the right framework because you are
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talking of Gaza as if it was a stand alone entity.
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No Krishnan, the Palestinian people are the exclusive
18:39
recognised right of self determination in the little that
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remains of the land, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and E
18:47
Jerusalem which Israel is unlawfully occupied.
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And let me remind the audience that in in July last year, the
18:55
International Court of Justice has ordered Israel to withdraw
18:59
its presence from the occupied Palestinian territory entirely,
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totally and unconditionally. The military presence to
19:06
dismantle the settlement and to stop controlling the Palestinian
19:10
natural resources. This is an obligation that has
19:13
implications also for the UK, which means there shouldn't be
19:17
any recognition of what Israel does in the occupied Palestinian
19:20
territory as legal, including the exercise of what you're
19:23
calling self defence. This is the law.
19:25
And there is also an obligation not to do anything that results
19:29
in aiding and assisting the occupation.
19:32
Krishnan, this is the discussion we need to have, because this is
19:35
the framework in which, yes, the Palestinian as a people have,
19:39
under international law, the right to defend themselves to to
19:42
resist as a way to defend themselves as a people, which
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have limitations. Yeah, but what does that mean in
19:47
terms of actual action? So when Hamas fires rockets, is
19:51
that an act of self defence or is this, as Israel portrays it,
19:56
an act of terrorism? Yeah, of course Israel portrays
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it as an act of terrorism. Israel has the right at the
20:02
obligation to withdraw from the occupied Palestinian territory.
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And if. Once this happened and it's
20:10
attacked by the State of Palestine, it has the sacrosanct
20:14
right to use and invoke, or rather to invoke and use the
20:18
right of the SO. To be clear then, on those
20:22
rocket attacks, are you saying they are legal resistance?
20:25
I'm not saying anything that International Court of Justice
20:30
has not said already for the past 20 years.
20:33
Israel cannot invoke the the self defence against the people
20:40
it occupies you're. Talking about what Israel's
20:42
doing, I'm talking about what Hamas is doing is, is what Hamas
20:46
does when it fires a rocket at an Israeli town.
20:49
Is that in your terms self defence or is it terrorism?
20:56
It can be both. If you target civilians, it can
20:58
be both. So again, an act of resistance.
21:01
Well, those rocket attacks are untargeted.
21:02
Largely, an act of resistance can be criminal and therefore
21:06
should be held accountable to. So those who have committed
21:09
crimes against any civilians through killing, brutalisation,
21:14
torture or abduction need to be held accountable.
21:18
But let me tell you, under international law, an unlawful
21:20
act of the resistance doesn't delegitimise the resistance
21:24
while the occupation that Israel maintains in the Gaza Strip, the
21:29
West Bank and E Jerusalem is so unlawful that taints of
21:32
illegality whatever it does and it's not defensible.
21:35
As the the Court of Justice has reminded Israel in many ways,
21:39
the only way, the only legal way for Israel to exercise
21:44
self-defense vis a vis the Palestinians is to withdraw its
21:49
military and civilian presence from the occupied Palestinian
21:52
territory and give the Palestinian.
21:54
It's an opportunity to leave free as a people and cannot
21:58
justify the legitimate security risks that it faces to
22:03
annihilate the Palestinians. So this is what's happening,
22:06
Krishna. So.
22:07
So what should the United Nations, the organization you
22:10
work for and international governments be doing now to stop
22:14
what's going on? As a as an independent expert of
22:21
the United Nations, I can tell you I can't remember another
22:25
historical phase where the United Nations have been so
22:29
fragmented and paralyzed. There is the legal component
22:32
that has failed because no one has firmly reminded Israel that
22:39
self-defense I mean other than in the global S, but the
22:42
organization as such should challenge the way Israel and
22:47
Western states in particular interpret self-defense.
22:50
self-defense has is something that has limits. self-defense
22:54
can be invoked in two circumstances, when it's
22:57
authorized can by the Security Council or when it's a direct
23:02
response to an attack or threat of an attack by another state.
23:05
So no against a people maintained under occupation.
23:10
This is the first thing there has been a failure to to for the
23:15
for the international community unity and that that is
23:19
represented as the United Nations to work as a platform to
23:23
prevent conflict and then to resolve conflict.
23:27
The question of Palestine has been treated as a humanitarian
23:30
issue to deal with in perpetuity instead of it's very easy to end
23:34
the question of Palestine in line with international law.
23:36
Instead, what the General Assembly has been turned into is
23:40
kicking the gun in the air thanks to the influence of
23:43
Western states, powerful Western states, which are kept on saying
23:46
the there should be peace, there should be peace, but how can
23:48
there be peace? I mean the.
23:49
Truth is, the UN is broken now, isn't it?
23:50
I mean. No, it's not broken.
23:52
It's wounded and it's not broken.
23:54
And the point is that this is for me, that the silver lining
23:57
is that this is an opportunity for a new for a new
24:02
reorganization of forces. It's the time of in a way, we
24:05
are breaking the silence of what is happening in the occupied
24:09
Palestinian territory. Two years ago, it would have
24:11
been impossible to talk of Israel as an apartheid state
24:15
imposing racial aggregation. Now we do, because the
24:18
International Court of Justice has said that it would have been
24:20
impossible to debate in TV whether Israel was committing
24:23
acts of genocide or not. And now we do that also because
24:26
there are Israeli leaders, for the first time indicted for war
24:29
crimes and crimes against humanity.
24:31
Now we need to break the silos. We need to work as an
24:35
international community able to take us away from this abyss and
24:40
start working, recognising all of us as equal.
24:44
This is not happening, Krishnan. Can I ask about you?
24:47
Because you you are also targeted by Israel supporters
24:53
who accuse you of coming to this job with bias of previous
24:58
positions on Israel. In some cases they accuse you of
25:02
anti-Semitism. Straightforwardly, what What is
25:05
your, What do you think is going on there, and what is your
25:09
response to? Yeah, Look, I, I first of all,
25:14
let's clarify with this job, because this is something I'm
25:18
doing voluntarily and really out of principle.
25:21
Because as a as a European, as a responsible European person, I
25:26
don't want I'm so deeply, quintessentially against racism
25:32
and violence explicitly because our ancestors have been part of
25:37
the genocide of the Jewish people, the Roman Cinti and all
25:40
the genocides that have been committed against colonial but.
25:43
Did you come to this job with an open mind?
25:46
Of course, of course. But open mind doesn't mean empty
25:49
mind. I mean, I, I, I've produced a
25:51
scholarship on the question of Palestine.
25:53
So I'm, I'm knowledgeable. I'm very knowledgeable.
25:57
If this is a, this is a, a liability.
26:01
Well for whom? Again, I wouldn't exaggerate the
26:05
criticism against me because I keep on being in very respected
26:10
and very well received by most governments in the world and
26:13
most most importantly by including by the people in the
26:16
West. Frankly, the fact that we
26:17
leaders don't want to certain leaders don't want to meet me.
26:21
I understand. I mean, I, I, I expect that
26:23
people who are accused of complicity with war crimes and
26:26
crimes against humanity and possibly genocide that take an
26:28
issue with me. Does the British?
26:29
Government receive you. Not that I, not that I recall
26:33
in, in the last 16 months, but let's, it's, it's important that
26:38
the British people listen to this and, and take an issue
26:42
eventually with, with the British government.
26:45
Because I say again, I say there is wilful blindness and
26:49
ignorance of vis a vis the facts that have taken place and the
26:54
legal qualifications thereof. Because my job as a special
26:58
rapporteur on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, I am
27:01
mandated by the United Nations Human Rights Council to document
27:05
and report the violations of international laws that takes
27:07
place in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and E Jerusalem.
27:11
So this is also to qualify what you were asking me about October
27:15
7th. That has been investigated by a
27:17
Commission of inquiry, which is deeply, deeply antagonized by
27:21
your government. So whatever we say is not
27:24
listened to. It's very convenient.
27:25
But let me tell you what my job requires from me.
27:29
I'm required to be impartial, to document the fact objectively
27:34
and to assess them according to the applicable legal framework,
27:38
which is humanitarian law, international human rights law
27:41
and the other conventions that are a complement to the human
27:45
rights system. Once I've made my conclusions,
27:48
it's not up to me to strive for equity instance among the
27:51
parties, because here there are no parties, There is an unlawful
27:55
occupier and unoccupied people in perpetuity.
27:58
There is a state that continues to advance what is what has the
28:02
hallmark of settler colonial practices, and it's committing
28:05
international crimes. I'm not going to go into some of
28:08
the history. I mean, you, you, you, you have
28:09
apologized for talking about the Jewish lobby in the past and
28:13
you've never used it again. So we don't need to go into that
28:15
necessarily here. I just want to ask you finally,
28:20
you're the subject of threats right now.
28:23
As anyone who speak out on the question of Palestine today,
28:27
which includes many Jewish people and anyone anyone else.
28:31
So it's I'm in good company, let me tell you do.
28:35
Do you feel a it's worth it and B you're achieving anything
28:41
right now? I I don't know, worth is not the
28:48
first word that comes to. My, your personal security is in
28:51
jeopardy right now, isn't it? Oh yeah.
28:52
Yeah, Oh, yeah, Yeah. I'm asking myself, I have two
28:54
young children. So my, my answer is no one in my
29:01
life is more important than anyone else, including you,
29:03
Krishnan. So if you were in Gaza with your
29:07
family, you would be very happy to have someone like me taking
29:10
risk because you would be seen at least.
29:14
So it's worse is not exactly the word that comes to mind.
29:17
It's a moral imperative. It's a moral call.
29:20
This is what, what being cognizant of.
29:25
Yeah, of being part of humanity means to me in its simplest,
29:30
simplest way. And again, I, I think there is
29:36
no alternative. To me.
29:37
It's coming at yes, at great cost, at great risk.
29:40
And at the same time I can, when I have the opportunity, I can
29:46
sleep with a, with a, with a clear light conscience.
29:50
I wonder how leaders, including in this country, look at their
29:55
children these days, have their meals, buy their things on
29:59
Amazon or whatever. How can you carry out your life
30:03
thinking that you have the power to stop it and you're not doing
30:07
that? Francesca Albanese, thank you
30:09
very much for your time. Thanks for having me.
30:11
Thank you for joining us. That's it for this edition of
30:13
the FORECAST. Until next time, bye bye.