Latest / Skin Anarchy / Finding The Rationale Behind Radiant Skin ft. RATIONALE Founder, Richard Parker

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Finding The Rationale Behind Radiant Skin ft. RATIONALE Founder, Richard Parker · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: That just so happens to be Australian-based, which is amazing because we all know the immense value of Australian Australian uh, you know, just local flora and just all the amazing ingredients that come out of Australia in general.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not gonna rant too much.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: I want to introduce you guys to Richard Parker, who is the founder of Rationale Skincare.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, Richard.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, it is such an honor to host you.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to learn from you, and I cannot wait to dive in.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Hector.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's lovely to be here.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's lovely to host you.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to chat with you.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I really, really um, you know, want to learn from you, like I said in the beginning, but I uh at first I want to get started, Richard, with your background and everything that's led to you becoming um part of the skincare industry and what led you down the track to go into skincare.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I I'm a formulation scientist by training, so I've worked in dermatology for the last 30 years.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, as a young man, I contemplated a career in medicine.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to become a dermatologist, but my earliest interactions with the medical training were that it's very, very much about um treating things when they're at their worst.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: And this is in the 1970s, and I think Western medicine shines, absolutely shines when things are at their worst, Western medicine's at its best.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: But there was a very, very big gap between that and what I didn't really have the words for back then, but the concept of skin wellness.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: What happens when we treat skin beyond disease?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: That concept didn't exist in the medical world, and it's still in its infancy today.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought this is the space I want to work in.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: Fortunately, um, I had a second string to my boat, literally.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm also a musician.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: So rather than studying medicine, I did a degree in music and performed and taught for the next 10 years.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, in my 30s, uh, when I was at university, I used to work as a makeup artist in fashion.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I had this really interesting left-right brain connection thing right from the beginning.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and when I finished university and finished my career as a musician and teacher, I thought I want to go back into the medical field.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: But my ideas about this skin wellness area had very much formed.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I went back to university, became a formulation scientist with the aim of working in skincare.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Interestingly, at this time, this was um in the early 90s, uh, interestingly, um, laser resurfacing, so full surface laser resurfacing with CO2 lasers, which is very heavy duty, um, was taking off in Australia because we we needed to develop technologies to deal with the amount of sun damage that we had in Australia.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I was working um uh with a group of dermatologists to study the changes that were happening in the skin after full facial resurfacing.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: So we knew about the pathology of sun damage, lines, wrinkled skin cancer, and pigmentation and so on, but we didn't really understand the immunological changes that were occurring in the skin after laser resurfacing.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: So we found that there were barrier issue changes, there were changes to skin pH, there were changes in the skin microbiome, of course, all of these things that are now everyday words for people in our profession were new concepts back then.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought, you know, we need to develop an approach to caring for the skin that's similar to how we think about systemic nutrition, so all of the right vitamins, minerals, proteins, and so on to keep us healthy.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: I had this concept that there was a similar notion, if you like, about how we could care for the skin.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I coined the phrase topical nutrition.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Now, you've got to remember, Actor, at this time, dermatologists were being trained that the stratum corneum, the skin's outermost layer, was an impermeable barrier.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing could come through.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that was what we were taught.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, anything you put on the surface, with the exception of a handful of very powerful drugs, could make their way past that stratum corneum barrier.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that was that was the predominant logic.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, today we know almost the exact opposite's true.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: The skin is a very high affinity for things that are um skin identical, things that are good for the skin, and some things that are bad for the skin can be absorbed and have profound effects on skin health and beauty.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it was a process over the next 30 years, which goes on to today, um, to look at how we could nourish and protect the skin.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: And now, being an Australian scientist, um, people like me, our dermatologists, are very, very a fay with the effects of the sun on the skin.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, the most important statistic that I like to quote, and it comes as a shock to to doctors, scientists, as well as consumers to this day, is that 80% of facial aging is caused by the sun.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: 80%.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, well, hang on, this is a this is um a really interesting message.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's very focused, so uh and it's very clear, and you can see the effects of the sun on the skin.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought we need to develop a philosophy.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: So my buddy skincare company was going to always be about the very best ways to protect the skin from the sun and how to how to repair sun damage at night.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: So daytime was about protection, nighttime was about repair.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that philosophy to this day continues to be what drives rationale.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it's such a positive message because it means how we age and how our skin looks is very much in our hands.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll talk about that later because that's the new science of epigenetics.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what a wonderful name for the brand Rationale, because that is the most rational way of thinking I've ever heard someone, you know, articulate when it comes to health in relation to sun exposure.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, every day I am seeing all of these people, whether it's on social media or people I speak to, you know, on a more professional level.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the question is um really becoming, you know, how much SPF is enough, you know, and when should we be utilizing SPF, et cetera, et cetera.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, what really bothers me, Richard, is and maybe you can um help clarify this for me, is that people are just focused on SPF for protection.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like when it comes to just, you know, um the power of just solar energy impacting your skin and its health, I think there's a lot more that comes into play than just, you know, right in terms of slathering on SPF.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a lot more things we could be doing.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: So it's huge.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's huge, Ector.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: In the 90s, we saw with full-face laser resurfacing, we saw immunological changes in the skin that were exacerbated by sunscreen.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: So sunscreen chemicals are very powerful.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, these things absorb and diffuse radiation, they stop us from getting cancer.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, so you know, these are powerful chemicals.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: And they what we've seen in the last few decades is this okay, we know what happens if you don't use sunscreen, but what happens to your your skin, your health, your body when you do use sunscreen?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: So there are lots of questions, lots of concerns about sunscreens.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: And my own philosophy about this is I I only ever formulate with zinc oxide.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think zinc oxide, you know, for 30 years I've been working with zinc oxide to look at how we can use it in the most safe way for the skin.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I think, yes, SBF is definitely part of daily sun protection.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: But we now know several things.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Firstly, we need a certain amount of sunlight to produce vitamin D.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And we see what happens, you know, to people who don't get enough sun for the for their health.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: So how much sun is enough, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: So my rule of thumb right now is don't get burnt ever.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: If you get burnt, that's too much.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: You've gone too far.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: If you see signs of sun damage on your face, that's too much.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I think we have to assume rather than expecting science to bring us the answer, we have to use our knowledge of our own skin and know you know how long it takes you can be in the sun without damage, and then cut it in half, and then that's your safety margin.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Use a zinc oxide sunscreen every day when you're in the sun.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, get a little bit of sun in the morning on your arms and legs, go out for that first early morning walk for, you know, 10, 20 minutes and get your vitamin D levels up.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but but I think the whole thing about going beyond SPF is so relevant.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the basis of what we call now call the rationale essential six.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: So there are six, I call them, systems that coexist in the skin.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: The first one is the skin's immune system, and we have to boost that because we know that we're in the sun, this thing called photoimmunosuppression occurs.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: And what that means is that the energy of the sun depletes our skin's immune system, and that's how we end up with skin cancer, but it's also how we end up with photoaging.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: So we need to protect the skin's immune system.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: The second system is the antioxidant system.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Now we all know about antioxidants and how important they are, but which ones and in which concentrations?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's so much scrabbling and debating out there.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: But my answer was look at the skin, have a look.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's all there.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, in all the anatomy physiology textbooks, it tells us what levels of ascorbic acid are found in the stronto cornea and what levels of vitamin E, what levels of glutathione and and um superoxide, all of these antioxidants are in the skin.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's called the human skin antioxidant system.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so what I did with rationale was recreate that.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: So in the same molar ratios that you have, all of those um uh vitamins, minerals, and proteins that protect the skin from oxidation damage, all of those are there, and so we did that in our antioxidant system.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: The third step in the morning, of course, is um sun protection.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we've talked about that.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the only sunscreen that I feel safe working with is zinc oxide, and we've pioneered many, many new technological breakthroughs with zinc oxide.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's the daytime.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: At night, we're gonna try and repair sun damage, and that starts with barrier repair.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we need to use the same lipids that are found in the skin.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: And you'll hear this all the time when I when I talk or when I'm when I'm writing about rationale, we talk about skin identical ingredients.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's important because the more close the formulation is to the skin, the more the skin's gonna like it, the more it's gonna accept it, it's gonna be able to work with what we're putting on the surface.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, second step, so we repair the skin's barrier at night as we cleanse.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the fifth step is we have to rebalance skin' pH.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: As we get older, and as a result of sun damage, skin becomes more alkaline, and that's not good.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Skin doesn't like alkaline conditions.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: All of the microbiome is dependent on a mildly acidic pH, as you know.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we need to maintain that, and that means balancing skin pH back to acidic levels.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then our final step in the essential six is DNA repair, which we do with a combination of retinoids and DNA repair enzymes.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that encompasses an a completely comprehensive approach to dealing with 80% of skin aging, which is caused by the sun.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's I mean, that's really, really um spot on.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Everything you said, I completely under, you know, I'm following along because, you know, it's interesting to me how people think that when it comes to photo aging, you know, it it's just a one size fits all kind of thing where it's not.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, um, you brought up such an excellent point, Richard, with the idea that you have to figure out what is right for you.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: You have to figure out, you know, what is the right amount of sun exposure for you and also figure out what is the sun doing to your skin?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's you know, for some very fair um skin tone people, you're gonna see that redness, you know, you're gonna see a lot of like, you know, what you call burning signs, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like redness, inflammation.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of times with darker skin, like such as myself and a lot of um melanin-rich folks, you know, we will often see other, you know, things that are indicative of that.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And they also reflect in how much hyperpigmentation you're developing even the day after.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: So these kind of little signs, I mean, I feel like, you know, what you were talking about is just so important because to get consumers to understand that photo aging shows up differently for you is very important.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I love that you talked about that.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And also, you know, I want to say one more thing is that you had spoken about antioxidants.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I really love that topic because, you know, for everyone listening, just for your general knowledge, um, and Richard, please correct me, you know, where I'm wrong.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I know that, you know, when it comes to sun damage to our actual cells, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Skin cells and our DNA, the DNA is releasing free radicals when it's damaged.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So that free radical release is what's going to lead to further exacerbation of that sun and photodamage stress that's being induced on your skin.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, like you said, it's a multifactorial thing.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: You need your antioxidants, you need the sun protection.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Zinc oxide, I'm with you on that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: I only buy sunscreens with zinc oxide in them.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't do chemical sunscreens, I only do the mineral base.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's very interesting what you said.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, you know, it's even scarier than that, uh, because sunscreens, when they're irradiated, so so what we call organic or carbon-based sunscreens and titanium dioxide all release free radicals when they're irradiated.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: So when sunlight hits sunscreens, they produce free radicals.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: The only one that doesn't is zinc oxide.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: So if you know, this is even more reason why we should use a zinc oxide sunscreen.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to find one that works for your skin that's super refined.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think the point you made earlier is so relevant about knowing your own skin.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: So, with rationale, people always say to me, you know, what's the most important thing I need to do for my skin?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: I say, go and have a rationale consultation.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Because that consultation is all about self-knowledge.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: We teach you how to understand your own skin down to the genetic level.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a comprehensive medical genetic history that we take of every client that walks in the door to help them understand where their skins come from genetically and what they what they need to do.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: We do a genetic test.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: So we do a bugle swab and we look at all of the parameters, you know, for immune protection, antioxidant protection, sun protection, so on.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: We we we do a scan of this and we show clients, you know, you've got great skin antioxidants, but you have very, very poor barrier repair mechanisms.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So we need to work on that.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: So that knowledge, and it gets to the point, you know, people do intuitively know a lot of things about their skin.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: If I talk to a say someone from a Celtic background, you know, and this is these are real examples, they'll say, Oh yeah, you know, I start burning in four and a half minutes.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, people know.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Or someone with a skin type five or six will say, you know, I don't burn, but my skin feels tight and dry and sensitive after after I've been in the sun too long.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, people know, and and our job is to help them understand their skin at the genetic level so they can make the right skincare choices.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's a wonderful approach.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think genetics is something that I would love to really dive into with you because I recently um I'm actually working on a manuscript right now that's a much deeper dive into the epigenetics of aging well.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I recently published a paper, um, well, an article that was a teaser to this paper that's coming up.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was the article was I would I'll send it to you after the Please send it to me.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really about the major genes that are involved in skin health and how this is all very relevant to us now, especially now that the topic of epigenetics is coming up, you know, people don't understand that there are only a handful of genes that are truly impacting um skin integrity.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not like we're dealing with like 5,000 different genes.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's literally a handful.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: And if you know how to work with that level of genetics, and if you know and understand how epigenetics works, which for everyone listening, just as a little, you know, just teaser, you know, epigenetics is basically the modification of your genes by other, you know, chemical groups, like such as methylation.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's carbon and hydrogen added on top, you know, or is basically things that are added on top of the molecular structure of your DNA or your the gene, um, the area that's being transcribed.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so what happens there is that it's going to mess with the machinery that's transcribing your, you know, your transcript.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you're making different types of proteins, you're making, you know, just an altered version of what you were born with, because we're all born with an epigenetic thumbprint or a you know, some sort of a uh, what do you call it?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like a thumbprint.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but as we're aging and as we're growing, we are also expanding that thumbprint.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's becoming bigger and bigger and bigger, depending on environment, sun damage, et cetera, et cetera.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important to understand this on a molecular level, you know?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: Very important.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: And as you say, it's not that hard to understand.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we I think if people often ask me, what do you think the greatest advance in the 21st century is in skincare?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: I said epigenetics by far, because you know, I explain to patients, it's like this, you know, you have your genetic code that you're born with, you can't change it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but sitting above that is I call a series of on-off switches, which is the epigenetic code.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: And what that means, and this is the most encouraging message of all, is that by your behaviors, by what you do and don't do, and what you use on your skin, what you do with your skin, you can manipulate whether those switches get activated or not.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Perfect example is my family.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: I want to five children, both my parents had skin cancer, my siblings have had skin cancers.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm the only one that hasn't, because in my early 20s, I started using sunscreen every day and um different retinoid drugs and so on to try and repair sun damage.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: And the incredible thing is I'm the only one that hasn't had a skin cancer, and I'm 63.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: So now I think, you know, this is the positive message of epigenetics.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: And what I say to my to patients is that your skin health and beauty is absolutely in your hands.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you you you have power over this.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: And as you say, it's not that difficult.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's only a handful of genes that we need to be concerned about.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: And knowing that is the most empowering message of all.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: So have a consultation.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yes, absolutely.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I completely agree with you.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, it's interesting to see, you know, especially what you said, you know, about the um the family history that you um that you have on your side.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is, you know, people love to scream on top of their lungs, like, well, all of my problems are because of my genetics, all my problems are because no, you can modify a lot of things, you know.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I often see this with, for example, you know, in my daily practice, I see, for example, diabetic patients or somebody who comes in, they have a, you know, past medical history or past family history of certain type of cancer, certain type of disorder.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I try to explain to people that no matter what it is, you can modify your lifestyle to the point of not only combating that negative um impact of your genetics, but also refining it so that when you have children, you're gonna be passing down a whole different way that your genes are working.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like you're doomed.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, before we had this, like, we we had this like classical, yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we had this classical, you know, theory in the past of genetics, which was just, you know, you have the punnet square and you know, here's the uh recessive and dominant genes, but now we're really understanding that it's much deeper than that.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: It is a lot, you know what I mean?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so much more.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's where lifestyle, yeah.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, our choices, particularly with skincare.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: And the great thing about skincare, you know, I wasn't born with good skin genes.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: I had my my mother's sensitive skin cancer, my father's predisposition to acne.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was a competitive swimmer when I was a kid.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, 25 I had sun damage and acne, and I was really unhappy.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a powerful motivator for me.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, as many people who find their way into skincare will testify, your own skin problems become a platform or a or a springboard for for going into this profession.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: But what I saw over the next 10 years was I was able to reverse all of that.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: I was able to reverse the acne um pattern.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: I was able to reverse all the sun damage and influence my skin for the rest of my life to look healthy and to look youthful.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and and that's the message that I think I would give to people is that it's never too late and healthy skin, beautiful, radiant skin is in your hands.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: I really love that.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I completely, completely uh resonate with that um message.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it's something we really have to get out there.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I want to ask you um, you know, more about this consultation aspect with rationale, because I think for the audience, it's really good for.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: To give them, you know, an understanding of what is the consultation, you know, what does it entail?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: What are they what can they expect when they um embark on this?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: The short answer is self-knowledge, knowledge about your own skin.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's the most invaluable thing that we can do for you.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's the most precious gift we can give any anyone that walks in our doors.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I think you know the skincare industry is obsessed with new whizbang ingredients, um, both in the natural and the medical world, you know, one-offs, um, this novel ingredient, we have this, we have that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: We have a different approach.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: The first step and the most empowering step for every client is a rationale medical skincare consultation.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: It goes for about an hour.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: In that time, as I mentioned earlier, we take a full genetic history telling us about your grandparents' skin.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Is there any history of skin cancer in your family?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Did your father or mother have acne?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: We talk about all these things and we put together a profile.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: So that gives us, you know, an oral history.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: Then we do um if the client wants, we can do the uh genetic test, so the brute will swap, we send it off to pathology, it comes back, and we have a full understanding of the gene, the genetic code uh of that particular client's skin, which we explain to them in another time.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: We do a complete diagnostic imaging of the skin.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: So we look at the skin under various types of polarized light to understand, to see the subclinical as well as the clinical damage.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: Now that's an important distinction because you know, in certainly in Australia and in the sunny parts of the United States, by the age of uh 25, you can there are already subclinical signs of hyperpigmentation, there are already signs of collagen degradation and so on.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: So we can demonstrate, we can show young women this is what's sitting underneath, and in five years, it's all going to come out on the surface.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna see blotchy brown spots, you're gonna see lines and wrinkles and so on.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it's important to make people aware of that subclinical um sun damage that which we show through these polarized light imaging.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: We also look at things like the skin microbiome, you know, the porphyrin counts and so on.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: So we help people understand um if is their biome healthy, you know, um, talk to them a little bit about diet and talk to them a little bit about exercise and all those things we know go into holistic health.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then what we do is put together a customized um regimen, which we call your rationale ritual.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: And in that ritual, we prescribe one, at least one formulation from each of the rationale essential six collections.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the collections of the essential six collections are the various uh uh we call them pillars of skin health that I mentioned earlier.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: So in the morning, the first three are immune protection, antioxidant protection, and environmental protection, sun protection, at night, barrier repair, pH repair, and uh DNA repair.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: So each of those six collections have multiple formulations in them, and we select the appropriate formulation for you.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: For example, if you have oily or acne-prone skin, we'll put together a very lightweight water-based delivery system for you for those six collections.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, if you have dry skin, we'll do the opposite, it'll be very lipid-rich, very nourishing.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: So everyone walks away with at least one formulation from each of the essential six collections.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that provides, I like to describe it, Hector, like um like a balanced diet for the skin, you know.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: And our understanding of a balanced diet differs now from there isn't one size fits all for nutrition, and it's exactly the same for skin.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we need to put together the right balanced skin topical nutrients for you.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's how the consultation goes.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: We also prescribe treatments, so we do very beautiful, luxurious facials that have a medical focus as well.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I've always believed that rationale sits between luxury beauty and medicine.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think we bridge that gap very well.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: So treatments are prescribed for the client as well, and that makes up a consultation and treatment program.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that you mentioned imaging.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, I'm a huge fan.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, oh my gosh.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I literally, you know, you will be so um surprised, Richard.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I have been screaming this from the rooftops about imaging in almost every single subfield of medicine.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: I have been literally saying this since there was, you know, there are scientists I, you know, I was reading about or reading their books growing up before I even went into medical school.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And even like 20 years ago, you know, the most cutting-edge researchers of our time were the ones that were screaming, you need to do imaging.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Before you do anything to the body, you have to do imaging.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Same with like neuro stuff, you know, like it's crazy to me, you know, this is kind of a different topic, but you know how people approach mental health these days is so like it's it's the same kind of idea.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you're you can't do a one size fits all for mental health just like that because the brain is an organ, right?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: So same with the skin.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can't do a one size fits all, guys.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: All the cutting-edge psychiatrists I know today do brain imaging as part of their diagnostic and consultation process.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it makes sense.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: You you've got to look at the holistic or the macro and then go down to the micro level and look at what's happening there.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I think this is imaging is a perfect example of where knowledge literally is power, and we need to look at look at what's happening at the gross level, but also at the very, very fine, you know, micro level as well.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that holistic um uh consultation diagnosis prescribing treatment process is um is becoming incredibly refined that the more we have the diagnostic tools to to assist us.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, 100%.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I just want to really give um a huge, you know, thumbs up to Rationelle's approach because I really believe that when a skincare brand is doing something right, they're not gonna cut corners, you know, when it comes to the evaluation process.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're not gonna cut corners when it comes to figuring out what is this specific customer's needs.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to spend that time with you.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really encourage everyone, you know, especially our listenership, because everyone that seems to listen into us is, you know, you guys want to learn about skin health and how to optimize your own.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you should be inclined towards these kind of brands that are more so focused on, you know, individualistic treatment.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you have to realize the word treatment means individualized.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you go to an emergency room and you just say, I have a broken leg, you're not gonna get a standard.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's no standard treatment.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's protocols that we follow as physicians, but yet the end of the day, it's going to depend on you, your lifestyle history, you know, um, those kind of things.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this applies to so many different facets of medicine.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't know why we can't get on board with it with skin health.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for example, I just want to say, you know, there are so many brands now, Richard, popping up.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that Rationale has this amazing 30-year legacy of doing this, whereas now brands are finally getting on board with this idea of, hey, what about customized skincare?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sitting here like, well, wait a minute, this should have been done like, you know, 20, 40 years ago.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why are we just now making this as if it's a new thing?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I really want to ask you, you know, with rationale, what has been um the key to maintaining a loyal audience for you guys for over 30 years?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I would love for you to tell us about that.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Well, without, without doubt, it's the results.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: The beautiful thing about skincare is, you know, unlike other organs in the body, with skin, you can see if what you're doing is working.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: You can see it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's visible, it's on the outside.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, the skin is the only organ of the body that has to deal with deal with external environmental aggressors.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: Every other organ of the body is protected.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I think this whole question about why do people keep coming back to rationale?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: We have off the scale of it, we have like 98% retention rate of clients.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I put that down to the fact they our clients can see that it's working.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: Within weeks of starting on rationale, you see your barrier repaired.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: People start to comment, you look better.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: People often say, Is this true?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: Is this really happening?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, it really, it really is happening.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that external validation is what keeps people coming back.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: I also think the fact that we are so heavily invested in research.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, skincare companies say they do research, they don't do research, they do market research or they, you know, look at other people's research.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: But we actually initiate, we've just finished a huge um study with a genetic lab looking at the effects of um the antioxidant systems that we use.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: And in some cases, we've seen something like an 82,000 percent increase in specific skin identical antioxidants when when this formulation is applied to the skin.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: So that kind of data is what keep is what drives what we do.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: We're a research-driven company.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's those results that we produce are what keep people coming back year after year after year.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: Our client typically um is well educated in skin, they love skincare.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: They've often been through the the mill of trying different products, trying to figure it out themselves, um, and they trust our expertise.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: They're looking for someone that will go the distance with them.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: And we always say, you know, our mantra is luminous skin for life.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think you can't look young forever.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it's tragic when you see people trying to look young in their 50s, 60s, and beyond.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: You can't look young forever, is what I always say, but you can look beautiful at any age.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: I really love that.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the beauty aspect is so important to stress too, because you know, people have this completely ridiculous standard of beauty.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I talk about this in so many of my more like philosophical based interviews, you know, because it's like we have this idea of like, what does it mean to be body positive?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to be skin positive?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Love the skin you're in.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like, you know, you guys, it really comes down to science.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't say that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's no other way to say it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, no, yeah, you can, you know, talk all day, but if you don't invest in products that are besting in science, you're never gonna see results.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: You're never gonna see the things you want to see, you know.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I just feel like, you know, somehow we have to get consumers on this page of just saying, I'm tired of the fluff, I'm tired of the celebrity brands, I'm tired of the nonsense, I want results.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like I wish they would just do that.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's not different.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's it it's in interesting, you know, as you say, it's not easy.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: I I I always used to say, you know, men are rewarded for aging and women are punished for aging.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and I think that the only way out of this this trap, this bind of youth obsession is health.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: Is to is to if you are healthy, you are beautiful.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we're all attracted to people who are healthy and you know, they literally glow from within, and that shows in the skin.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the difference I think between skin and other areas of human health is that the most logical way, because skin is an external interface, the best way to treat skin is externally.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: So what's applied topically is going to have the most impact on the skin.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think, of course, nutrition has a huge role to play, but not as important as what we apply externally to the skin, because that's that's how we help, that's how we support the skin.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you see someone in their 70s, 80s, my old piano teacher who's 94, when she was 90, she came to me and she said, Oh, Richard, can you do something for my face?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now, this is a woman who lived in the sun, she had terrible sun damage.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: In four years, we have turned her skin around.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: She's now on a poster, she's a pit-up girl for us at 94 years of old because she looks beautiful.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: She's she's beautiful.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: And is she young?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: No, but is she beautiful?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the only way out of this um trap of youth obsession uh and making poor choices is health.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: And as you say, health is a message that we have to really push in skincare.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't see many skincare brands doing it.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I look at new brands that come up, even medical brands, and their approach to sun damage, which is 80% of skin aging, as we've we've identified, their approach is perfunctory or minimal, it's just not there, you know.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I that's why I always judge a skincare brand by the strength of their um research and the formulations they create that deal with sun damage.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: I know, and you know what?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I cannot, I'm so glad that you said that because genuinely I have brands tell me to like even now, okay, 2023, they are telling me, Richard, I know that we are a science-based brand, but I want to be more trendy.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be more talking about science is trendy.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_04: That is, of course.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: Science has the answers.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we have to we have to, of course, follow through and do what science recommends that we do, but there is no way around that.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, research, I mean, you're a scientist, you know this, that research moves slowly and then fast, and then slowly and then fast.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: And and we have to keep pace with it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: The hard part today, particularly in skincare, is sorting out the facts from the pseudoscience.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: And and there are so many whiz-bang ingredients that come out that are big for a year or two and they're good, we're gone.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Luckily, I'm old enough and I hope wise enough to know the difference between those things that are real and the things that are just trends that are going to come and go.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: And my barometer and the way I says this, does it address sun damage?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's 80% of the problem.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: If if this ingredient isn't and isn't demonstrable, you know, and if you can't see the research and you can't see the results on sun damage, then it's not real or it's not worth bothering, it's not worth investing in.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: What I love is that you know the FDA in the US and the corresponding TGA in Australia are very, very strict about sunscreen development.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I love this, it's getting tougher and tougher, and I love that.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: And they love us because we produce the data.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: We say, here, look, here's all the safety data, here's the SPF data, here's the beyond SPF data, because that's important too.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, UV only accounts for 7%, the sun's energy.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: The rest of it's visible light and infrared.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: What are we doing about that?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because they have real effects on skin health and beauty too.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: So all of these things that we do that support um skin health virus, solar protection, solar repair pathway, um should be the basis of modern skin care.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: And we need more work, and this is where we're putting all of our research at rationale.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely love everything you just said.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, it's it's really about um, you know, getting, like you said, your customer base is that customer base that wants to learn.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when you start showing people results and you start showing them like visible, I mean, we are vis, we are, you know, creatures of habit.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: We are also creatures of, you know, following what works.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: We learn visually, you know.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can just see the results, you guys, like, you know, try it out, you know, just try something out and see the results for yourself and then make up your mind about are all those 59 products sitting on your shelf worth it?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it better to stick with one regimen that has been thoroughly and you know, fully thought out for you specifically?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, also a brand that has 30 years of data behind them.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that by itself is huge, right?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the the fact that Rationale has been here and doing things right for 30 years, to me, as a scientist, as a consumer, as a doctor, I am just, you know, so fascinated by that because it's it's data.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't argue with data.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: End of story, you know?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I want to ask you, I want to ask you, Richard, you know, in terms of just how, you know, everything has been for the brand in terms of raising awareness around the science of skin, raising awareness around the efficacy of your products, you know, I know 30 years is a long time for a brand to be, you know, so steadily, you know, available and there in the market and making an impact.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure you guys have had some, you know, hurdles and lashbacks because just now we're embracing this, right?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: The size of skin idea, I feel like, as a as a society.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, how has that been for the brand, like growing over the past 30 years?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's been really interesting.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm so grateful for our dermatologists and our plastic surgeons because they have been um the my rock, they're my foundation, they're they're the reason that we we exist.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: So um, working in those early years in laser resurfacing and sun damage taught me everything I know now about the effects of sun on skin and so on.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: We stole rationale exclusively through dermatologists and plastic surgeons for about 15 years in Australia.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the interesting thing was that we were able to pioneer that channel in our country.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, as you know, you know as a doctor that money and medicine are not supposed to mix.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: So dermatologists have um they have qualms, they have they have issues about, you know, should I be selling skincare products?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: The answer is yes, your patients want this.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: And we did a study to to look at patient attitudes about their doctor selling skincare.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: Patients want you to tell them what to use, but they also are very happy to buy it from you.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: So we pioneered that retail in medical channel before anybody else.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: This is in the 90s.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, around uh, you know, 15 years ago, we decided that we needed to reach not just the medical patient who came in because they had skin cancer or sun damage.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: We needed to reach people out there who were younger, who maybe weren't showing clinical signs of sun damage yet, but realized that changes were happening in their skin.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: We needed to reach people who were maybe a bit phobic about going to a doctor.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: We needed to reach people who just wanted the best products available.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: So we opened our own rationale flagships.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: So the last 15 years in Australia, we've had our own rationale flagships, and it's such a beautiful interface, Hector, because what we do is patients come in and somebody's got a medical skin condition, we don't try and treat them, we send them to one of our doctors.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: And there's this beautiful conduit that happens between rationale dermatologists and plastic surgeons and rationale flagships in our own stores and clinics.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's it's a it's an interface with the mainstream beauty consumer.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: Now, we've now bought that concept from November last year.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: We opened our first beautiful flagship in Melrose Place in Los Angeles.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: We're opening in New York, we're opening all over the United States, but we're opening concurrently with our network of dermatologists here.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I must give a shout out to two incredible dermatologists who've been supporting us, Dr.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Vivian Bakai in San Antonio, in Texas.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and Dr.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: Ava Shambhan.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: Bakay is she is a genius medicine.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: I interviewed her for the for um the Vivachi conference that she attended.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: I really adore her.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: She is wonderful.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: And Dr.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: Ava Shambhan in Los Angeles, who's also been incredible support.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: So these two powerhouses in in aesthetic dermatology have been amazing.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: So we're working with them.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um we're we're opening our flagship stores, but always in conjunction with our network of doctors because you know, patients come in and out of the system.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: There are times, you know, someone walks in with rosacea, for example.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Is that a medical problem or is it a cosmetic problem?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's kind of both.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: And we're not going to get anywhere unless we treat the underlying pathology, which is again sun related to um with rosacea.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: So we we send the patient off to get medical treatment.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: And when the medical treatment's successful and completed, we step in and do the management part, or the dermatologist who has rationale steps in and does the medical management or the wellness part.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that beautiful interface that we we have with our doctors, and we're replicating that here in the United States.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I love everything about that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: I am so excited that you guys you guys are now in the US.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: So congratulations on the expansion.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the go I I love that.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love seeing, you know, really, really great brands go global because you know, we need these options available to people everywhere.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I just know that US consumers, from what I've noticed just from my little podcast and you know, interviewing people, is that US consumers want that knowledge, they want the results, but they're just drowning in these options, right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Richard, I mean, it's just like there's so many options.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I just I'm I sit here every day doing my own research, you know, at night before I go to bed, just to see where the consumers are at, right?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's on Reddit, on TikTok, whatever.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I still see so much confusion.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: And a part of me just wants to grab them and be like, here you go, here's the option.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Here it is.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, yeah, it's true.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, I I I always say to um when I'm talking to the press, I always say, uh, because the question often comes up, how does a lay person um discern between what's marketing or trend driven and what's real science?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: And my answer is, does it deal with sun damage first?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's 80% of the problem.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: So if it deals with sun damage and there's a legitimate research to back it up, it's probably for real and you should probably know about it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: If it doesn't, wait 12 months.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: If it's still around, then we'll see, you know.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: But but I think there is so much that we need to um improve our knowledge on on the effects of sun on the skin and the environment.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's interesting as rationale goes global.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: We studied in Los Angeles mainly because we had a huge community of expats in in the film and music industries that were living here who asked us to be here.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: Now, what's interesting is that we're seeing the interest come from the sun belt of the United States.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: So Los Angeles, uh California, the Los Angeles, um, Texas, Miami, you know, all of the interest is happening starting in the sun belt where there's the most sun damage.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: But of course, New Yorkers have unique problems.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: You have sun in the summer, of course, but you have urban pollution, which is a huge problem.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the beauty is that our regimes also work for pollution, for protection from pollution.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's like a good diet for the skin, topically applied.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to give you that overall health and beauty.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: And bringing our message to the US is just it's a joy.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm loving it.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm loving talking to doctors and scientists like you actually.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's so liberating and and so wonderful that you're interested and that you're sharing your knowledge with consumers.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: True, it's an honor to speak with you.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Come on now.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I really I'm I'm very honored that you, you know, that you're educating me.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I have so much respect for chemists and you know just the knowledge you guys have and the amount of work that goes behind a formulation and really perfecting it and the fact that you're so you know for just forward thinking about you know skin health and the in the way that it you should be, right?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of what you mentioned, sun damage.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like that is the most forward thinking.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I even want to say this to everyone listening.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: If the person who is behind the RD of a brand is not scared of doing things like innovating something like sunscreen and innovating something like sun damage protection, that tells you that that brand has nothing to hide.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of times you'll see brands that are like super blowing up, huge marketing efforts, right?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like everywhere, blah, blah, blah.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the sunscreen?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no sunscreen.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: Even doctor, yeah, even doctor-led brands, you know, doctors that that put their name on a product and there's no sunscreen, or there's like a 40-year-old chemical sunscreen formula that they've dug up from somewhere that, and I'm just like, what?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: What?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, and that and it it's interesting that the the skincare market, as you know, is so crowded and so noisy, even in the medical space.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I just find this message of just have a look at the sun protection message, have a look at the depth and the quality of that.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: That tells you all you need to know about that brand.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: Where is their research really going?
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think you know, it's it's a crowded, noisy market, but there is a way through for consumers by looking at their brand's philosophy on sun protection and repair.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not just, you know, yeah, I mean, sun damage happens whether we want to or not.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the skin has metabolic processes that are that are aging that occur naturally.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: What can we do about that?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a re it's basically a protect and repair message.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I say use that filter to examine any skincare brand that you're you're contemplating.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: I will yes, 1000% agree with you.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that that's really, really, really helpful to just kind of, you know, put down in your diary.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: I always encourage people, you know, you need to take notes with some of our interviews because some of our guests are just really dropping uh jewels like you, Richard.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I really I hope everyone listening, you guys are taking notes because this is really good stuff.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is the real science, this is the real nitty-gritty of how to make your skin just age well, right?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's the goal.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really, it's you know, it's like you said, Richard, you know you you can't expect to be 60 years old and then then hope that somehow you're gonna look dirty again.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's not gonna happen.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you have to emphasize it.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: We can see what happens to people who go down that path and the consequences, and I I don't mean this in a judgmental way, but it the consequences are tragic because you can see that they're chasing um something that's finished, it's gone.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: Youth is wonderful, it's not all wonderful, but you know, youth is wonderful, and it's but it's done now, it's over.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: And what's the next horizon in my life?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: What's the next frontier?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: And how do I go into that frontier looking and feeling my best?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it always comes down to health.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's interesting.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: I have a dear friend who's a cardiologist, and um, he always says to his patients, you know, if you lose weight and get fit and and you know, exercise and eat well and so on, you will be healthier and you will help so much with your your heart condition.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: The flip side of the coin and the reward is you look great.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's yes, it's the same with your skin.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: If you do all the right things with your skin, yes, your skin will be healthier, you'll have less pathologies, less problems, less sun damage, less skin cancer, hopefully.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then the but the flip side is you look better, your skin looks energized, you look alive, you do look youthful in the sense of your energy is youthful.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a huge um new area of research in dermatology, dermatodoendocrinology, the relationship between hormones and the skin.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: And we know when skin is healthy, we produce more endorphins, you know, more dopamine.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: We make happiness hormones when our skin is happy.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what's really interesting?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: We know the exact opposite is true.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: When skin is diseased, all uh all of our all of our happiness hormones, if you like, are suppressed.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so this is a growing field uh that I find also validates the argument for skin health and beauty being linked and happiness.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, I am so on board with everything you said.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: I actually wrote uh, you know, there's another actual paper I published about that, about the endocrinology of skin health.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I again I'm gonna do this one as well.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: Please, but um it was it's exactly what you said.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's what I wrote in there.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was a mini review, and I was talking about how you know people don't understand, you know, your hormones are very impacted by what's already there.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: And also, what are you doing to stimulate the negative type of hormones?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because hormones feed off of each other.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've got too much cortisol floating around in your bloodstream, cortisol is going to impact how much testosterone you're producing in your body.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: And for women, when you have too much testosterone, that's when you start seeing the acne.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's when you start seeing things like weird patterns of hair growth and stuff on your chin.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like that kind of stuff.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: Circulating antigens, yeah.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's so important.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's not just a one size fits all.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's more of this holistic understanding, you know, this education aspect, you know, and I just I'm just here for it.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I love everything that you've explained to us, Richard.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Rationale is, you know, if for everyone listening, if you're looking for something that works, you need to go check out Rationale.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: You need to go through the consultation process, you need to figure out what it is that is lacking in your skin health regimen and figure it out and and work with a brand that has the data.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: Again, guys, you know, you can't you can't substitute 30 years of data with a just a new brand that came out.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: And just because they have hyped up marketing and they're all over TikTok and they're all over social media, it doesn't matter.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter, it doesn't mean anything at the end of the day.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, if you're not gonna if you're not gonna see results, who cares, right?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just it's nonsense.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: So it'll feel intuitively right to you.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we welcome all of your clients in, you know, to to an online consultation, to come and see us in Los Angeles or New York.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: And but but the most empowering thing about about the sector is that it is in your hands.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: The epigenetic message is the message of hope.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: It absolutely is.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: And the knowledge that you will gain in a rationale consultation, you will have for the rest of your life and you will never make another skincare mistake ever.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: I really love that you have that available to the public.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's a huge service.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I recommend this to everyone.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you're somebody who's in an area you can't really act as a dermatologist that you like, or you know, you can't act as the aesthetician or the skin health professional you like, this is a brand that's going to help you, okay?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: It is, just go.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: Just go to rationale.com, rationale.com and and it's all there, how we can help you.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I really encourage everybody, you know, if you're in an area where you're, again, not being able to access that other type of care, even if you are, you know, just check out the brand, you know, check them out, go through the process.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you're gonna be surprised, you know.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: You are you're gonna surprise yourself if you do things that are science focused.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm a huge fan, Rickard.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: You are amazing.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: I am so in awe that you came on the show.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: You you are an absolute pioneer, and you are you know an incredible advocate for for skin health and beauty through knowledge and science.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: So bless you and thank you.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you so much.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: That means the world to me.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I've hope that everyone listening in, you're gonna go check out the brand right now.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna link everything in the podcast art for this um for this episode.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so definitely check them out.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you have any questions, any comments, any concerns, leave them in our comment section.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: We will pass them along to Richard's team and get you some answers.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I just really encourage all of you to get this conversation flowing.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you're in the Los Angeles area, definitely go check out the actual store and you know, do the whole process there.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, thank you again, Richard.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: And for everyone listening, I will be back next time.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Ecta.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 52:26
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• 52:31
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• 52:33
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• 52:48
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• 53:03
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• 53:05
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• 53:09
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• 53:14
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• 53:19
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• 53:26
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• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.