Latest / The Vance Crowe Podcast / #295 | Jason Bockman; Mental Health, Social Media and The Art of Hustling
Transcript
- Vance: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today, Jason Bachman, strange donuts returns. Jason is an entrepreneur and a very interesting guy. And during this conversation, he opens up on a level that I've never heard on another podcast, I am excited that he was willing to come by and I'm grateful that he was willing to share. Sharing is what people do when they walk in here to do a legacy interview, it's a chance for them to put out their stories and be able to capture their wisdom so they can pass it down to future generations. And now that we offer to transcribe your interview and put it into a leather bound book, you now have a chance to write an autobiography, potentially in a single day. This is a wonderful experience to give to a loved one. And it's a great way for you to be able to capture things that matter to you and pass them down to future generations. If you're interested in learning more, go to legacy interviews.com. All right. Without further ado, let's head to this very engaging conversation with my man, Jason. Jason Bachman, welcome back. Good to see you, what is new man, what's going on? Jason: I feel like when we talk, I gotta get ready to talk to you or something. But I was like, man, I don't know. Like, I feel like nothing and everything. To be honest, like, so much has changed in the past couple years. And I don't know, new businesses, new projects, divorce, moving, moved. I was in a little bitty apartment for a long time and, like, just living like, very simply. Alright, and yeah, I don't know. Like, one of the times we talked, I was talking about mental health stuff with me, I've like gotten a bunch of help. I feel like I'm a different person in a lot of different ways. And so, Vance: Man, it's it's shocking for me to hear that you would ever need help. Because you are like you the gas man, like you show up. You're like, you know, pumping everybody up. Yeah, like life seems easy for you. Jason: No, I think in some ways, there's like a lot of practice that went into it. And so like, almost to a detriment, I think, for a long, long time. I would be like, my head was so crazy, that I just couldn't trust the way that I thought and felt. And I would like, I could act very good, right? Like, it doesn't matter. Like how I feel, I would take right action. And I didn't ever really pay attention to the way that I felt. And I think that there's like a pendulum of like, you know, letting your feelings control you or me. And, but there was just these things these like, that would constantly be in my head of like, you know, I'm a failure. I'm a Hoosier, I'm piece of shit, I'm never gonna be anything like, in the middle of doing good things. I would just be tearing myself up. And that was like, just a constant. Vance: When your voice is doing that, is there any part of it that's right? That like, you are doing something worthy of your brain, your voice of resistance being like, knock this shit off? Jason: Ask me that in another way. Vance: Well, so you know, like my voice in my head. The one that's like telling me to get out of bed and get going and you're lazy. And what would your dad think? Like, in some ways it I hate it, right? Like, here's because it creates like a dynamic between me and my whatever inner voice. But sometimes I'm like, Thank God, I got all nervous about that. And I didn't feel good about it. And I felt like a piece of shit because I was not doing the right thing. And that voice got me going the right direction. Jason: I understand. I would be doing the right thing. And regardless, I would feel and think that way, right? I do think there's something in me that like there's it would be like them. They think you're a piece of shit also. And so I would prove it to them. I don't know who they are. But I would work so hard and go so hard to prove it to whoever doubted me. You know what I mean? And really, like no one ever really did doubt me. I was the only person that like hated Jason. And but I think that like it's a double edged it's like an asset and a defect, right? Like I would go so hard and accomplish so much but there was never any kind of like, stopping point or gratification. I won, like, I won this lifetime achievement award, I sold a company and got a bunch of money, right? I like my daughter was supposed to be born complications, and she was born like, entirely healthy. I like, there was all these big things that happened. And I was talking to a car I was like, Man, I feel like with any of these things, people would like, take a minute and say, Wow, good job. And I feel nothing. Like I feel no kind of happiness at all. And that was a problem. So like, that was one of the first times that I recognized that something was wrong. And so.. Vance: When you were not happy, did you know that other people were happy? Were you looking around being like, That guy shouldn't be as happy as me, look, I got this thing going Jason: Never. No, here's how it went. There was something wrong with my nipple, I had like a little lump in my nipple, right? And so I went to the doctor, who's these two doctors, they were very attractive girls, right? And it was weird. I'm like standing there. I'm kind of buff, whatever dude. And this, these girls are just rubbing my nipples. And it was going on for a while. It was I don't know why I told that part of it. But like, they're asking me these questions. One of them just kept touching me. And the other ones asking me these questions. And I was like, these are kind of weird questions, like, I'm here for my nipple. Alright, and this lady just she goes, how long have you been depressed? And I was like, I'm not. And she's like, I asked you all these questions, because I felt like something was wrong. And if you have like a 20% on these questions, then you are clinically depressed. All kinds of stuff, like, you know, do you think of harming yourself? Do you think like, all kinds of stuff, right? And she was like, you have like a 95% on this survey. And and she was like, are you like, are you thinking? Are you? Are you going to harm yourself? And I was like, No, lady, I'm here for my nipple. Right? And she was like, I think you should take a look at this. And I said, I was like, never like, I will never. For a long time. I haven't been a personal like, Oh, I'll hide what I'm thinking or feeling. I'll tell anybody what I'm thinking or feeling. You know what I mean? I'm not like, ashamed of like, like, what flows through my head. So it wasn't like secretive. And I just told him, I was like, look like, this is the only head I've ever had, I am not thinking or feeling abnormally, this is the way that I am. Right? And I thought I was like, don't and I did say like, Don't most people think this way? And she was like, Absolutely not. And my response to her was, well, they are lying. Right? They're lying to you about these answers, because I don't understand how people would not answer the way that I did. And I went, I went to a counselor after that, and started like, a very like, like surface level process of, of getting better. And one of the first things the guy told me to do, because I will get complimented a lot, right? Like since I've sat here, you've complimented me a couple times. And like the guy said, I need to write down the compliments and I need to say I accept that he's like, it's gonna be very awkward for a while. But when someone gives you a compliment, you need to say I accept that. And it started to like, sink into my brain a little bit, like really hear people. Like, for instance, if somebody said, like, cool sweatshirt, I'd be like, Oh, well, it was on sale, I got... You know what I mean, I would discount everything.. about good things about me, I would be like, No, I would discount it and like, not accept it. And I said, to this guy, I was like, you know, after a little bit of us doing that, I was like, you know, I've, there's two people that hate Jason. And one is me, and the other is my now ex wife, you know? And he was like, well, we can work on you, you know, and that, and that, that just started this big process. And so.. Vance: How did you choose the person that you were going to be? Like, I'm gonna tell you all of my inner workings in my mind. Jason: I would rather do that with a stranger than like talk about baseball. Like I didn't very rarely small talk, you know, I'm like, what do you love? You know, what do you what brings you joy like to strangers? And so I feel like for a long time.. I don't care I'll tell anybody anything. Vance: Yeah, you're extremely open to strangers. You're also a guy that is broken free from a literal cult. So like you worrying about coming under the spell of somebody is not altogether dangerous. But I feel this with other counselors, like when somebody says, Oh, I'm thinking about going to see counselors. On the one hand, I'm like, Hey, is there anything I can do? Right? And I think there is a place for somebody that has seen a lot is like, recognizes their limitations, but all therapists, psychology, counselors. They all have an orientation. They have a way that they believe the mind works. And some of them might be like, Oh, hey, Jason, we got some pills here. And all you got to do is just take a couple and then.. Jason: I've done that, or I went to a doctor, and he was like, I mean, I had been smoking PCP for like a week. Like, I was up, I was fucked up for a week and, and I went to this guy. And he was like, What are you been doing? And I was like, I've been smoking PCP for about a week. And he was like, take this pill. And if you don't, if this doesn't work, you're lost. Right? I've been to those people that just medicate you. I hardly take ibuprofen now. You know what I mean? I'm like, I don't.. Oh, for a while. Oh, no, I did that for a long time. I did that. One of the first times I ever used, I was 12 years old when I smoked PCP. Vance: That had to literally change the function of your brain. Jason: I'm sure, I am so sure of it. It absolutely did. But like this guy, the cool thing about this counselor that I saw, is he said, I would tell him stuff, and he wouldn't be like, how does that make you feel? You know, he wasn't that dude just parroting stuff back to me. He would say, okay, here's the solution. Take this action. Right? And he would text me, he would say stuff like, you're a good man. You deserve to be happy, you are not crazy, right? And I end up going doing this, like other therapy stuff. When like, some of like, you know, I feel a little more comfortable talking about this, if I grew up, like very dysfunctionally, right. And like, some of like, the, like, the symptoms of like growing up this way, like, you know, like, I don't want to get too far into it. But a very abusive upbringing, right? Is like not trusting your own intuition. Right. And so like, when I, I would not trust the way that I thought or felt at all. And now that that stuff is like starting to clear up, I can, I don't have to, like, ask permission from anybody about like, the way that I think or feel or what I want to do, I'm like, this is right for me. And I do this now. Vance: I mean, you're like the biggest, you know, strongest, but also like, most Gracious, happiest person, so to me listening to you say you had struggles, frightens me a little bit. Like I feel myself being like, oh, shit, if if Jason can have problems then fucking, any one of us could get pulled down by that. Jason: Right? Of course. I think all of us do, though. And I think that's some of the stuff that like, it's, I don't know, Vance: Male depression or male, like, whatever it is that gets them down. Man, I am real scared of that. And it's because I've started hitting the age where I have other people around me, maybe I'm don't spend that much time with them. But they got like, sucked into some hole. And like, Man, I don't want that. Like, I'm fortunate that no one I'm close with has taken their life. But like, one of my good friends, his 30 year old son killed himself. Like smart guy, driven, was an engineer like, great mind. But something just wasn't right. And I feel like it is happening with increasing frequency, What in the hell is going on? Why? Why is this happening? Jason: I don't know. I think the easy thing to say is like, we live this life now of like, Look at me. And this has been said a million times. This isn't like an original thought. But like, do you ever get caught on your phone? Just looking at Instagram? Yeah, just Twitter, whatever. And like, by the end of doing that, I am no matter what I'm doing. I'm a, I'm a piece of shit. You know what I mean? Like, these people's lives look so good. And there's something wrong with me. And I think it's weird. Like, I don't know, there's not like, I am fortunate to have really good friends, a group of, I'd say a large group of good friends and then a tight group of like, people that I can tell anything to, you know, I can be undressed in front of like, and feeling some sense of belonging and not only belonging, but not individualism, like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not alone in the way that I think and feel. I'm not alone thinking this is wrong. And I think a lot of people don't have that anymore. And I, and I don't know, I see people just like trying to look good. And I'm like, man, we don't have to. Vance: Well, and they're not trying to look good in the context of we're doing this ceremony where everybody's bringing their wives and their kids to this thing. It's like, I'm gonna go on parade all the time over a digital space where there's nobody here interacting with me. It's just adulation. You know, one of the biggest social technologies I think we've lost in society is community organizations like the things that people go to, to like spend time with one another, like rotary or whatever. Like the the groups that people used to get together so that they ran into people that were like them kind of but also pretty different, has gone virtually down to zero. So if you don't intrinsically go out and find your own group of friends, you don't have a ready made group of friends and most people are totally adrift islands in their own houses Jason: And exacerbated by COVID. Right. I was thinking about this. Like, I'm have a pretty accepting open person, right? I listen to like political podcasts on like, both sides, and I'd like me to pump the brakes on listening to any of that shit for real. Because it just like, it's all the hate. It seems like any more there is no like, common bond anymore where we meet and like, what, like what you're talking about, but I started like, fucking hating people. Right? Like, I'll see people now. Like, and I'm still like working out of it. And whatever I like, only to apologize for my judgment. I'll be like, super, like, I'll see the people with masks on still, right. And like, I just saw somebody walking in this building with like, they put the mask on their kid, I don't know their situation. I don't know if like, the kid has leukemia or whatever, you know, I have no fucking clue. But um, I was like, fuck you. Like, what are you doing this for? And I heard something, this guy.. Vance: I feel this way, like exactly what you're describing, like, I'm, particularly if it's a man, if it's if it's a kid or a mom, like I'm like, Alright, whatever. They're scared. Yeah, for a man. I'm like, you're not adding to the positivity of things that are working. Jason: For sure. I haven't said anything. Because I have. I'm like, I'll ask people stuff sometimes. Right? Like, Hey, why do you do this? What do you do that whatever. I feel like that topic. For whatever reason. I know, the reason. I mean, I was like, the brunt of like a bunch of bullshit. I'm being on like, like, business was so hard. Right during that. And I, when I see that I associate it with like, I was on somewhat, we were following everything the CDC was saying what to do, right until I was like, Wait, this is buckets. Stupid, right? Yeah. Vance: Everybody tried that was like, hey, I'm gonna band together, right? We see these people singing songs on their balcony in Italy. We can get along like them. Right? We'll do whatever. Yeah, then you find out like, Oh, they're not asking. They're telling. And they're telling and they're not actually following the same rules that they're telling us. Yeah. And so I this is like, you're trying to wrap me up in a riddle that I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna keep playing. Jason: Yes. And I see that and it's a symbol of that to me. Right? Where I'm like, What are you still doing this for? Like, have you not read anything about.. Vance: Can you imagine what the life is of a of a man that is wearing a mask though? Like what? He must be seeing how different his life must be than yours, than mine, certainly. Jason: Yeah. either. So somebody said this. I can't remember who it was. Like, and whatever. I don't care. I have friends. Like, on ever I don't care. Right. Well, your political affiliations are sexualality. I don't give a shit. I don't care. But this this made a lot of sense. I think people who had like make America great again hats on. I was like your fucking asshole, to me. Like immediately. I was like, Vance: You're wearing a flag. And that flag is you're not on these people's team. Jason: I'm like, Man, fuck you dude. Right? Regardless of whether like I agree with I don't know I could find things to that I agree with you. This dude said that the mask being worn now is the Make America Great Again hat of liberals right or have like the far left, right. And I'm like, and then make America great. Like those are like far right, weirdos like, I'd see I, I hit a point I start getting like ashamed of the American flag. I love America. Right? I'm like, very aware of like, you know, the, I'm grateful for the things that we have here. And the luxuries that were afforded that most people in the world don't get, right. I've lived in gone to spend a lot of time in those places. I would see people with like, these MAGA hats, and then like American flags on their truck, and I associated the two and I started being like, oof when I saw the American flag, Vance: But it goes exactly to your point about people needing to belong, because wearing that hat. While it definitely alienates you from a bunch of people. There's a whole bunch of people that are like, oh, yeah, like, you go from being the person that nobody noticed in the grocery store to every once in a while having a guy like give you a nod,a little head shake. And, you know, you talk about people wanting validation in their lives. And that's, that's one if as much hate as you're willing to put up with then you get adulation by your side. Jason: Yeah. and then come to find out most of the hate your code that's coming your way, or most of the adulation is coming your way is fake, right? You mean like bots? Yeah. What the fuck? Vance: how crazy is it? That our? Yeah, I like I have not talked about the Twitter files or any of the stuff that the government is doing because I think people look at it and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's just the stuff the government gets into. And you're like, No, wait a second look like look, they were legitimately propagandizing inside of our country.right. Either side doesn't matter if, if it was the opposite side, and Trump's White House was really good with with Twitter, we would still be like, Hey, what the fuck are you doing? You're not allowed to choose what information we listen to what information other people listen to, fuck you. Jason: When I was on that call. One of the first things they said to me is, don't watch the news. We will watch the news and tell you what is important. And I at first, I was like, awesome. I was like, Cool. These people who know better than me, will tell me what to know. You know, and I just like, ate it up. And that was I think one of they would do things to shock you. Right? Like, say racist shit or whatever, right? weird, crazy stuff. And then I'm like, if you didn't buck at it, like, you know, there were seeing who bucked and like, And then like after like that initial stuff. That's when they started saying like, we'll tell you what to think. And like, it was seriously like a relief. Like, oh, man, like, I'm worried about all these things in the world. It's awesome that I have somebody else that'll take care of that for me. Vance: Yeah, I strongly believe that most of the topics that people believe politically, the only reason they're watching the pundit and it could be Ben Shapiro, to you know, whoever the young, Todd's Dave American, right? All you're trying to do is be like, alright, the world is really complicated. Take this issue and tell me which side is the good guy side? And which guys, the bad guy side, No, when you're listening to it, and you hear your good guy side, you're like, No, I have it all reasoned out. I understand the nuance. Well, you don't realize is just like you're accusing them of only seeing these clips, all of your ideas are built on somebody being like this guy. Good. That guy bad. Jason: Yeah, for sure. I couldn't agree more. And I listened to both of those podcasts. Right? And it's crazy thinking about like, man, you take the same issue. And like what they do with the information is completely different sides of it, there is zero common ground. And it's easy to fall into those things. But, Vance: What do you think happens to the human mind? Because we got here by talking about men being depressed and, and having these problems, going into a counselor, potentially getting around somebody that wants to put you on medication or limit you from information? Well, I don't really have a question other than to say, like, we were the we got to a place where we're like, we think the media is having a really big impact on like, what we think is wrong with other people around us, when really that's the way our minds are working. Jason: I said something, you see my social media stuff, strange donuts, all handles whatever, right? We had this thing, it was all it was like, peanut filled peanut butter. And I made this post and I said, if I was like, you know, if you have a peanut allergy, this is your ticket off the planet, right? And it was just funny, whatever. It was this quip, right? There was a comment from Alberta, Canada was the first one like, you know, you piece of shit, whatever. And then, like, all it was like, no one locally, it was like, California, Canada, Australia. And you can see, and I was looking at these, I was like, Holy shit, man. These are bots like and I don't give a shit. And they'd be like, delete this, delete your account. And they're like, started slamming us on like, on Google reviews and all this stuff. And I just like, No, I'm not. I'm not doing any of that. I just kept doing other stuff. And one guy came into the store. And he was like, shaking. And I was like, he's like, what's up? Dude, he was like you, you said that kid should kill themselves, he was a little bit older guy. And I was like, When did I do that? And he was like, you said something? And this dude, it had been distilled down to this guy. You know that. I was telling kids, they should kill themselves. And I was like, No, man, here's this post. I was like this. And he was like, oh, that's, That's it? And I was like, yeah, and he goes, and he bought some doughnuts. Right? And I think that like, I don't know. Vance: That's almost like swatting you, right? Like if you if you like, get somebody or groups of people so worked up, that they're like, coming in to physically be in your presence that like because they're so angry. That's crazy. Jason: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Vance: Who's doing it? Jason: I don't know. I don't know. Like, what was it? How many what was the percentage of bots that were on Twitter? 20? There was a there was a an amount, this is before the purchase went through.. this was like.. Vance: Oh, that's right, because he started complaining being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Jason: He's backing out like this, you don't really have all these users the valuation is wrong. And I can't remember what the number was. But I don't know. I'm sure it's, I don't even know as some of that I don't even. I'm like, I don't even care. I've tried. So like, I have like, as little as I can be on social media. Vance: Yeah. But you're a social media king like so people listening to this don't know, you have a donut shop. And instead of it just being like, oh hum, you're doing like furniture style commercials from the 80s. Jason: We're doing all kinds of stuff. And I get I get paid now by big brands to do that stuff for them. Right. Like to be a consultant or to film their content or direct their content. Right commercials, I do that now. And yeah, for sure I do that. I hate it that I don't like what, like having to be a part of it all the time. I view it now as like a place to drop in, right? Where I used to view it as a place to get my information a place to get validation a place to like, Ooh, how many likes is this thing, get, you know, and I see my kids now I have a six and seven year old, the way my daughter grabs the phone, and she's like, Hey, everyone, I'm here at the park. And I'm like, Holy shit, she's talking like, some fucking YouTuber, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want my daughter thinking that that's what life is about. Vance: You don't want her to be an Instagram star? Jason: Hell no, right, I mean, if that's what she wants to do, that's cool. You know, like, No, we need to have like actual skills and actual things that we're doing that like, the, like capturing of content is not valuable in and of itself, right. Like if you're good at gymnastics, or soccer or, you know, drawing and wiring a circuit or do whatever that is, like, that's that's the skill not. And that's the payoff, the intrinsic value from that not the validation from other people saying that's good. Vance: I'm starting to wonder if the way our cities are set up, just like straight up the the way people are packed in, if you actually can't have a childhood that you develop the skills that get you ready for regular life. Like for me, I grew up in a place where you couldn't go shoot, like a 22 in my backyard, but you could definitely shoot a BB gun. And I could go anywhere over my entire town, I could like ride my bike. You know, as I got older, I was able to go further and further away. You get to blow stuff up. None of that stuff happens now. Jason: I try to make that for my kids. Right? Like let them live dangerously. Right? Like and we I do. Vance: Don't you become that dad then are you like, oh, that Dad, we can't let our kids be around that. Jason: Oh, dude, it is crazy that what seems normal to me to talk about, like, people are like, I wish I could talk like you or do what you like who's telling you you can't? You know what I'm saying? Like no, if this is the way and this is what feels good. And I've I have no reservations anymore about seeing something somebody else does well, and wanting that as a part of my life. Like, do we I went I took my kids to Disney. And it was fucking awesome. It was so awesome. It was just, I just got choked up for so it was just me and them. It was awesome. I went and I prepaid for this thing that you had to like booked months in advance. My son made a lightsaber. And I was there. And they were there's these families walking around with like, you know, Johnson Disney trip 2013 Blah, blah, whatever, you know, I'm saying like, it was 2021 Whatever it was, but like, I was like, Man, I wish I could like do that. I wish I was like that guy. I'm like, oh, it's as easy as printing the shirt. Just go print the shirt. And I can do that. I thought they were them. And I was me. And but no, I can learn from them. I can do that. And I don't, I don't care. Like if I'm that dad or whatever. Like none of them matter to me what they think or feel about me. My kids matter, right? And people have something to say about that. Like, I really don't care to listen. Vance: Man. Speaking of experiences, I think actually one of the best things that happen when two men get together is when they have children like to be able to just talk about like, what were those experiences that were valuable. And yesterday I was like kind of frustrated because trying to get back to the regular life but my daughter's school that she goes to is still out of session. So I take it a day my wife takes a day where we take off work and at first I was like so resenting it because I was like I have so much work to do but I was like alright, but what could I do? And we used to when she was an infant and COVID was going on we used to go to the art museum so I'd push her around in the stroller. Yeah, and I got to see the first time she ever noticed color. And she had this like you euphoric giggling when she would see all the colorful paintings and stuff, so I finally take her back only now she's two years old, her infant sister in the stroller yesterday, just slept through the whole thing. But my daughter would go to these paintings and she's two years old. And she would be like, leaning into them, as she's staring completely wide eyed at this, like abstract painting of a woman without a shirt on, or a giant ship with all these people on it. And you watch your children see something like she saw pictures from 1500s. And she could be like the baby Jesus right there, right? To watch a child, watch something so intensely, like they can with beautiful art is one of the greatest experiences of my adult fatherhood. Jason: I agree, dude. I was with my kids the other day. It was a couple weeks ago when I said something like, we prayed before we ate or something like that. And I cussed them they're like, you can't cuss when you're talking to God. I was like, No, god's, like my friend. Sometimes when I'm, like, frustrated, I'm driving my car. I'm like, What's up by motherfucker? You know? And they were like, and I was like, in my house, if they need to, they can cuss, right. Like, I don't like sensor there. If there's like, I hate you to their sister, brother, my Hey, you know? No, you don't you love each other, hug each other, whatever. Outside of that, like my daughter's, she's like, Oh, shit, whatever. Like it was just, like, frustrated about something. And it's appropriate. And sometimes it's just funny. But I was like, you know, we talk like that here. We're friends, right? I talk like that with my friend. God is my friend. And I was thinking about that, like, Man, I wish somebody would have told me that, that there's not like this vengeful thing coming to get me that there's something that's my friend. More than that. Like, oh, one big thing that I've learned over this past year, is like, how I feel is not right or wrong. It's just the way that I feel. Right? And I don't need to justify it or explain it or be ashamed of it, or afraid of it, it just is the way that I feel. I don't know. I like seeing things with my kids now. And I've started doing this, like over the past two years before we go to bed. I don't like pray with them. But I say like, you know, tell me something you're grateful for something you're proud of, and something that you do to help somebody else? You know, and they do that every night? Am I really what I'm teaching them is prayer, right? Like, really what I'm teaching them as a way to look at life and like, at the end of the day, take inventory of what happened that day to see what you can do better and what you did good, right. And I don't know, it just it works well for me, and it works well with them. And I like seeing my kids be free in their thinking and feeling and acting. That's the only thing that matters to me. Right? Because you see how we like I talk to these adults like, Oh, I wish I could talk like you. And I'm like that I'd already said like, Who told you that you couldn't know who told him? They could everybody did. Their fucking mom did their dad did their family did. And I'm like, I refuse to be that guy. Vance: You know, the the thing that I'm coming down to that it's really important for parents to do. And as I hear you describing this, it's just right in line with that is your responsibility as a child, as your as a parent of a child is to teach them how to be observant. How to notice things, because most of what gets people to be like, Oh, I wish I could say that are these paper walls. And they look real, right? They look like oh, you're not allowed to walk through them. But imagine being in one of those Japanese tea houses, right? Like, where you realize, like, wait a second, you're kept me locked up in this little room here. I can just walk through the wall. And I'm in a new room. And yeah, people are like, you're not allowed to do that. But the rules like you only get to live this life once. And so if you can observe which rules are made of paper walls, and which ones are actual rules that benefit you to participate in. And that's a big part of being a dad. Jason: Yeah, I agree. Man. Oh, yeah. I've noticed stuff with them. Somebody told me this, someone divorced, right? I was on this cruise with the kids a couple of weeks ago. And this lady just randomly started talking to me. And again, I was like to start talking to her about it. Here we go. And she's like, you know, I think that you meet people on purpose. Sometimes I was like, Yeah, I agree with that. She was like, you mind if I'll be frank with you. I was like, yeah, she's, I'd be glad that she goes like, your daughter is gonna be fucked up. Like, and she's like, You see my grade that you seem like you're doing awesome stuff with a kid. Get your daughter is going to have some stuff that's wrong with her because of this divorce. It's just that is the way it is. Right? And she was like, you need you need to be her partner. And you need to fill her up. And I'm not saying like telling her she's pretty She's smart. She's, you know, courageous, like, I'm talking about like listening to her and asking her why do you feel that way? How'd that? What did that do to you? What did that, you know? What do you think about this? And like, instead of like me pouring into her, me being like, pouring out of her what she thinks and feels, and validating whatever that is. And I've been doing that since then dude, and my, my daughter, and it's kind of hot and cold. You know how she is would be sometimes. But like, for the past few months, I've been doing what this lady talked about. And she said, I was at the donut shop, I had to take her to work because School's out. And I walked by her and I just picked her up and kissed her and squeezed her, you know what I mean, to dance with her for a minute, where I would usually be maybe a little embarrassed to do some of that stuff. What am I, there's nothing more important than the way this little girl feels right? Or what she's being shown. And the manager of the store said, she's like, you put you put Benny down and walked into the other room. And Benny goes, she's like, my daddy loves me. Right? And I was like, Fuck, yeah, kid, like, know that, that, like, I got your back. Vance: And dude like, for raising girls. That is something important. I have a dad and he loves me. So I don't need that love somewhere else I can find the right kind of love to be romantically involved with like, I think you and I have talked about this off camera. Like, I want my daughter to fall in love with a man that is more like the man I am now than the man that I was before I met her mom and like, because that dude is not the guy that I want her to emulate and or, you know, like, want to be around or be attracted to you. And so you what I figured out from all of this is like, that guy is still in me. Right? Yeah. So you just have to make sure that the way that the way I'm navigating through life, I don't leverage those skills that made me that guy. Because those are the ones she's gonna watch me using and doing not necessarily that the one the skills you use when you're, you know, married and connected with one person. Jason: Yeah. Like, life squeezes you. Yeah. It's crazy how much they pay attention. Vance: What is divorce divorce, like in a modern age? Jason: Um, for me, initially, there was like, so I was the one that said, like, I can't do this anymore. Right? We had a talk. And I said, you know, what do you think about our relationship? And she said, You know, I wouldn't blame you if you left me. Right. And like, that stayed there. We talked about that. It was like, I was so afraid of leaving, because, you know, what would it do to my kids? And the counselor said to me, like, you know, well, what will it do to your kids to see your relationship now, and then think that is what love is, you know, because it's like very combative. And I don't want to talk and I just, I was like, I, you know, I'm, I'm good. I left for a few months, and then like, like, you know, couch hopped for a while, and then went to mediation and did a divorce. And there was, personally, there was like, you know, a lot of people like you were acted like, me, like, saying, admitting that I have problems, you know, a lot of people were like, shit, man, if Jason can't stay married, like, how can I because like, things looked good, you know what I mean? And so, it was, initially, I'll just say, like, we went to mediation, which I thought was good to say, like, and I just went with an offer, and my offer was like, you can have everything right. So like, here's all the money, here's all the stuff. And I'll take all the debt, and boom, because I was like, I don't want her to struggle or suffer, you know, because that doesn't do anything good to my kids. And I've always, you know, relied on myself and I know, I can make money, I just make money, right? And I do stuff and I am aware of and create opportunities. Right? So I'm like, I will be fine. I don't know that she has that skill set, right, which isn't a knock on her. And so it started out. I don't know, there was a lot of guilt, a lot of shame. And, you know, questioning myself. And we told the kids and I, you know, when we told the kids I had an apartment already, I took them to the apartment and they're like, awesome, whatever. Right. That was short lived, right? I don't know if they understood, but like, the finality of, of what that meant. And so they had problems. We got, like, a counselor for my son. And he was very angry. My daughter was like, pretty aloof, you know, and I just need to be aware of the time a little bit. Boom, I gotta be between 20. So, like, you got a counselor, it helps tremendously. And I was at a baseball game with the kids. And it was our goals. His last game, I made like a poster about this. But I was, I was like, at the game with them. They had cotton candy, it's our pools, his last game and St. Louis. He was as a Dodger, right? And I'm explaining like the game and like, we're having fun and, and, but inside, it was just like, Man, I feel so bad for being here alone with my kids and the way this situation happened, and blah, blah, blah. And this guy said to me, after the game, he goes, Hey, you got a beautiful family. And I go, I was like, what? You say you, you three, your beautiful family, you mind if I take a picture for you? And it was like it. The first occurs to me that like, Oh, this is my family. It's us three. You know, it's not like the broken thing. It's this is just what the family looks like right now. And it was like, I believe in God. Like I've said, like, I think God talks through other people. I don't think that God gives people messages, or maybe it hasn't. Vance: The way he communicates to you. Jason: Yeah, like, and it was the stranger saying like, you're a family. It's beautiful. You're a good dad. And I was like, it was the first time that I saw it for myself, you know. And from then, because I think there was like a lot of like performative emotions and actions and stuff. I was like, fathering them like impotently, you know, like, almost like apologetically, you know what I mean? Like, depressed, I was super depressed. And that was the first time where I was like, Oh, this is a choice at this point. You know, this is a choice at this point to like, stand up own the situation fully, and make the best of it. And it's actually pretty good. You know, and I am pretty good. And I am better than I think I've ever been. Not I think I know, I'm better. mentally, emotionally. Just like my thought, life. And like, I'm not perfect by any means. But like, I'm better than I've ever been. So like, that's okay to own that too. I don't need to be apologetic about it. I don't know. So it hasn't been easy. I think that some of that stuff like COVID and the courts being shut down, exacerbated, like, wait times and stuff. You know, it's, it takes a long time. And I don't know, Vance: How do you, you know, even if she's not your wife, you nowhave a mother of your children. Like, how does that? How does that engagement go? Jason: So myself, I can't talk about it hasn't read that has it's been messy. For sure. I try. There's something there's this book called Biff. Right b i FF and I think I feel like in difficult situations is a good way to live. It's brief, informative, firm and factual. Right. So my interactions are brief. I will meet you here at this time. You know, so that's brief, informative, I gave you all information you need is factual. There's not like any feeling or emotion in that. I think, like, that's a good way to like, for negotiations in general. But now we are no longer like, our relationship is more like, laid and Benny LLC, you know, and so our interactions are, are just are just about the kids. I don't, you're not a person I share my feelings with anymore. I hope at some point, it's like a little more cordial, you know? And, but it's just not. Vance: So you're sitting here you got your checkered shoes on? You got your fun, you know, you're always got strange gear on of course, Jason: this is up late. This is something else I'm working. What is that? This is I got tired. I love St. Louis dude. But like, I don't sleep a lot. And I'd be up late, wanting some food and there's nowhere to eat. So I was like, Man, why don't we just do this ourselves. And so probably two weeks from right now at the corner of Vandeventer in Shaw. There'll be a late night restaurant. Eight o'clock or four in the morning. And that's our starting hours. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. What kind of places that fire breakfast sandwiches tacos. We have. We're making a you're the first person to hear about this beer with forehands called beer. It's just a black Can Vance: I've always said that that two people should do I don't want to make a decision. I just want to buy beer. Yeah, I just want to have deodorant, Jason: right. That's what this is. So it's like brutalism, right and this can of beer, beer and the sandwiches, like, we initially thought, like, this is what the sandwiches like, this is how you're getting it. You know what I mean? Boom, boom, boom. So it's like simple breakfast sandwiches, really quality ingredients, reasonably priced, and up late. Vance: who's the creator of the sandwiches? The food that's there? Jason: So I'm a very small part of it. Right? Yeah. I'm like 20% owner. I've, like, had a lot of guidance with it. Vance: You don't need to accredit if you make strange donuts. Like if you're the creator of the food I think that's okay. Jason: there's a guy who works with me right now, who's worked with me for a while, and he was bringing in food all the time. And I was I said to people all the time, I'd say in front of him, like, you know, I don't have enough room for this guy to move up. Right, like, and so I tried to like, hook him up with other businesses and stuff like that. And then one day, I was like, Look, you want to open your own place, dude. And he was like, it's a dream of mine. I'll tell you about this is a dream of mine to own a diner. And I was like, shit, it's always been a dream of mine. And so I was listening to this podcast. I got interviewed. And I was like, Man, I talked about all these things. The only thing that hasn't come true in my life, right? Is that I don't own an NBA team, right, all these goals that I've set. And I was like, Man, I want to have like a little place and like a little condo in Vermont, and a big farm, and a diner and I go my holy shit. I've manifested all of that. You can Vance: You can only manifest it if you have the dream. You can't manifest it if you don't have the dream. Jason: Is this on me right now? I'll have an NBA team in St. Louis. That's it. I'll own an NBA team. Vance: I mean, that'd be awesome. I'm coming to those games. I don't even.. Jason: Oh, it'd be so badass. So up, like I've been working on that. But you were saying my shoes, my sweat pants. Vance: Well, you like you're all like, you were eating a sandwich and were like, don't worry about getting me napkins. I got my sweatpants. then you flip around your hat. And it says Ferrari on it. So explain to me this like juxtaposition. All right. Cause Ferrari is like, super chichi Jason: um I have a Ferrari. Yeah, the. Yeah. I have Ferrari. Vance: Told me about owning a Ferrari. I never I've never met anybody that has a Ferrari. Jason: No, man, I went into, um, I went to there's a Ferrari dealership that opened in St. Louis. And I wanted a Porsche A while ago, and I went to buy one. And I, these people laughed at me. You know, I dress like this. I don't care, right? This isn't what people like, like, I don't know, like, I'm not trying to like dress up in a certain way. I just dress comfortably. I'm very rarely since being single. I'm like, oh, I need to like get some shit. And like, look cool. You know what I mean? And I'm like, I've sold that stuff. Right? Well, those attract the wrong people. Yes. Dude, completely. What this dude was like, Hey, man, just so you know. You're a fucking check now, dude. You know? And he's like, and that's how these girls are gonna look at you. Right? And so be careful. Right? And it's like a dude I knew loosely. And he was like, but he knew me loosely and of me, you know? And like, the way that I am with people. And he was like, You need to be careful, dude. You're gonna get caught up. Anyways, I went in. I went I have an 86 Toyota pickup. I've just been hustling dude, I Vance: Yeah, but last time I saw you had a minivan. Jason: And I still have the minivan. I have a $6,000 minivan out there. Okay. Yeah, I paid $6,000 For this minivan, and I'll probably have a minivan forever. Right? Everything that I buy everything I do. We're talking about money and like mindset and stuff like that. Everything that I do, I buy in the hopes of selling it later for more money. Right? Flat out. So like, watches clothes, home, cars, Vance: You're buying value that's under appreciated. Jason: Yes. For sure. Always, always. There's five words, like, Can you do any better? Right? In a negotiation that if you like have zero education, or those five words will make and save you more money than a college education. If you can come up with the balls enough to say Can you do any better? Right? So anyways, dude, I was like, I have this 86 Toyota pickup. I was just buying cars buying art selling everything dude, because I was like shit, I'm broke. I gave her everything literally straight up. I ended up like, getting some art. And so on it. I filed this, this Instagram account called tax collection and another Instagram account called Love watts. And they would highlight new artists, right? And some of them were already like, very well known and stuff, but some of them would have like 1500 5000 followers, whatever, right? And so if I liked the art, I'd go on there. I'd link immediately to their website and I would buy some their art, you know, Vance: That's because you've got an eye for what other people see, like that's one of your truly unique gifts is that you can see something and see what other people will see. Jason: I see opportunity for sure. Right, like 100%. And so I would go I wouldn't buy the art just because like on speculation, I buy it because I like it. And so I'm like, I like this people will like this. So I buy a piece of art for $500 $700. And at one point, I bought a piece of art, like I got money to buy it. I borrowed I'm like, Hey, dawg, I need to borrow some money. This is one of the first flips that was a hit I from like, I just left. You know, I have this little apartment, I have a $6,000 minivan. And I bought a piece of art for $28,000. I borrowed the 28 from a friend. And I sold it two weeks later for 49,000. Right. And so it gave me Yeah, it gave me enough money to like, buy an apartment, get a TV and a couch and a fucking bunk bed for my kids straight, you know, and like, I went to.. Vance: That's hustlin man Jason: dude. And so I just kept doing that. So I would buy these pieces of art. And then like, you know, two weeks later, these people had 5000 followers now have 50,000 Other inventory is sold out. And now what was 500 is 6000 You know, and I'm like, boom. Vance: Man you are a whole new man. Like I'm I like I do not want to cut this off. But 20 minutes ago, you said you had 20 minutes? Jason: Is it really that long? Now let's roll with it. I'll tell you I want to tell you one more thing if you want to keep I'll keep going ours don't quit what happened. They I had I bought a truck online. So I was selling cars. I bought a again, I took that money from selling art. I bought a new Bronco. I sold it, I drove it a mile away. And I sold it I took it the auction the next day I made $24,000 on it right so I took the 50 or the 49 bought a Bronco sold that 76,000 is whatever I sold it for 76,000. And then I just kept fucking going. And then I bought um, so I'm like buying cars and art and clothes and whatever and just flipping it. And anyways, I they open this car dealership and they're still like painting the building and I walked in there with my kid, I have an 86 toy to pick up a buffalo 4000 It's like 20 grand right as well. And the no miles on it is awesome. I got it from some farmer in Illinois. And I drove in the Toyota pickup, which all the mechanics came out like holy shit, you know, but the the manager guy was a fucking prick. And he's like, What do you want? And I was like, I want you to sell me a car. And he goes. And was like, there's just so you know. Because they lasted me when I went to buy the portion. When I bought I knew the guy who owned the building. And he was like, do this. He was like my mentor. Anyways, they end up like.. Vance: What would he tell you? what is the do this? Jason: So he was like, you know, get agreed on the price. And then I asked him about leasing it, you know, he's like these cars appreciate you'll be better off leasing this than buying, right? And so he's like, put you in a better negotiating position. Anyway, so when I asked to lease the Porsche, at the end, they laughed. And I was like, I know, I know, I make more money than you do. Right? Like I don't I don't I get validation from that. But you're like trying to treat me like I'm a fucking white trash be shit. And like, and so I've just left it whatever. And I bought something else, right? I end up telling the Ferrari guy that there happened to be all these influencer dudes up at the store at the Ferrari store. When the dude again, like scooted me out, back to my Toyota pickup. And he said, he said I'm walking out. And there was all these influencer guys there to like, do stuff for Instagram and take photos and all this crap. And when I walked outside, they're all like, Oh, they got pictures of me and stuff. And then they end up calling me like, Hey, man, we'd like you to come back in. And then I went and met another guy who's like the current manager there who's awesome. Who's an awesome guy. Vance: This is the ultimate Pretty Woman moment, right? When you walk back back into the store that they rejected you from. Jason: Dude I walked in and he was like, this is Mr. Bach, we'll get him some snacks and a coffee. And the and, and I ended up like, you know, there's something called the Ferrari family. Right? And it's like a very small list of people that they sell new cars to. And if you see somebody drive, you know, if somebody gets a new Ferrari, like, they're basically getting paid to drive that car, right? Because the Ferrari will buy those cars back, usually at a premium from you, and then they might get way up and sell it to the doctor. You know what I mean? Who sees the donut guy driving it? It was like, I want to fuck a Ferrari. You know, I mean, and so, and then you just keep getting cars. So again, I was like, hey, dawg, I need some money. And so hello. I just hustle. Vance: I want to ride the Ferrari man. Jason:I think that'd be fun to take you. Vance: I would love riding a Ferrari. Jason man. Yeah, thank you so much for coming by dude always good.