Latest / The Resilience Project / Adoptive Mom Courtney White on Ending the "Grateful Adoptee" Story and Building a Parenting Tool That Actually Helps

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Adoptive Mom Courtney White on Ending the "Grateful Adoptee" Story and Building a Parenting Tool That Actually Helps · The Resilience Project

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi y'all, I'm Julie.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a trauma-informed adoptee coach and somatic healing guide.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: After overcoming deep abandonment wounds, I now help adult adoptees move from feeling lost and disconnected to experiencing profound self-belonging.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: I know what it is like to carry the weight of abandonment, to feel stuck in patterns of longing, adapting, and searching for belonging.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: To have tried every healing modality available and come up empty.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: My own healing has taught me this.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: The answers aren't out there.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're buried within me.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm here to guide you home to yourself.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: The Resilience Project podcast brings voice, visibility, and validation to the parts of adoption society rarely names, but all of us feel.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Through an trauma-informed somatic lens, I explore the lived experiences of the entire adoption constellation with a tender emphasis on the adoptee experience.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast goes beyond storytelling into soul-telling.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: It offers embodied insight, compassionate education, and a path towards awareness, hope, and strength.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Each episode invites listeners to understand adoption more deeply, not just with the mind, but with the nervous system, and to reconnect with the truth, identity, and belonging that were always yours to come home to.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: A little while ago, I got on a call with a woman named Courtney, who's here with me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: And what struck me first wasn't her story.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: It was how quickly she named something most people take years to even notice.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: That foster and adoptive parents are so often set up to fail their kids, not because they don't love them, but because no one ever taught them how to regulate themselves first.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Courtney is an adoptive parent, and not long ago, she and her husband welcomed three siblings, ages seven, nine, and eleven, into their home.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Kids whose parents are incarcerated and whose birth family Courtney has worked hard to stay close to rather than pushed away.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, her husband was laid off, they were both on parental leave, and life was, in her words, a lot.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And in the middle of that, she built a tool drawing on her own experience and training to help foster and adoptive parents self-regulate so they can actually show up for the kids in front of them.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about the story our culture tells about adoption, the rescue narrative, the idea that kids should be grateful, and why that story quietly harms everyone in what she and I both call the adoption triad, the adoptee, the birth family, and the adoptive family.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about what it actually looks like to hold space for the child's grief while also parenting them day to day.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we talked about why a technical writer with no marketing background and no built-in network in the foster adoptive world decided to put this work out into the world anyway.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So this is a conversation about honesty, the kind that doesn't flatten adoption into a feel-good story.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't flatten foster parents into saints or villains either.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think it belongs here.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get into it.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Courtney.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: It is so great to have you.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Julie.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I uh really appreciate you having me on.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's such an honor.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious if there's anything I've missed that you want to add.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've covered it pretty thoroughly.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, good.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we did have one conversation, and yet it was pretty clear what you were doing.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm I'm just grateful to have you here.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious actually, as a technical writer, since you have that as your background, how has that shaped the way you approach not only work but life, the things that you are doing and what you are creating?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think as a technical writer, my day job is taking very complex information and trying to break it down in a way that is very simple so that anyone can understand.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I do work in the software industry.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes those very complex technical steps can be intimidating.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is that has been my day job for many, many years, kind of taking things out of an engineer's brain and making it easy for anyone to understand.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that is really the way that I approach life is how do I solve, you know, how do I solve this?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do I make it simpler?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do I break this really hard thing down into a smaller piece or a chunk so that anyone can understand it better?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of approach life the same way when I'm managing things, organizing my my home, organizing the family schedule.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've always kind of seen things in that way and try to simplify things as much as possible.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: So helpful.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: It makes me want to have you in my back pocket in my house.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, what drew you to actually have this conversation and to sharing your story even more broadly?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's really because I saw a gap there.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who had never fostered, my husband and I had never fostered or adopted before going into this a couple years ago.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we did go through the training provided in our state, but it wasn't very um, it just it didn't have the depth to it.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that tended to make us go in with rose-colored glasses almost.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And while it's easy to say, oh, I went through this training and I know what to expect, you really, you just you can't.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so wanting to really show up as my best self and apply the training, but having really still that gap there of like, how how do I do this the right way?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do I give these children what they really need?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that's really where the idea started.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I found myself just asking a lot of questions and I ended up turning to AI resources, honestly, because I didn't know where else to go and I didn't want to say the wrong thing in the moment.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that really is what got me thinking, other people they have the same problem that I do.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what are they doing?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are they dysregulated and they don't have anywhere to turn?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so is there a way that we could solve this?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you have fostered these three siblings, the seven, nine, eleven, which I love that you took them all in.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for that.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And their parents are incarcerated.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now, can you give us an update on on what's new here?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Have you I can't remember if you've actually adopted them at this point.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think you have.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: So just give us a little bit of an update.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: We adopted them in December.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been a few months now, and they did live with us for about a year and a half.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So but going into it, we had never fostered before.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really interesting because we had planned on adopting maybe one child, and then we had three people contact us at the same time on the same day about these siblings.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just really felt that, you know, these are our kids, we're gonna do it.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we just didn't stop, you know.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just from there, we said yes, and we're able to kind of set up meetings and bring them eventually into our home within a couple of months, and so it all happened very quickly.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I remember when we first talked, I was like, wow, so you became a parent of three kids very, very fast.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you had a choice.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: The choice was either to maintain close contact or not with the the birth family, and you chose to remain close to them in proximity rather than having distance from them.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to tell me about that?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: What was that like for you?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the three siblings that we adopted are actually a sibling group of five.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so because of different foster placements that happened in the beginning, their brothers were actually placed with a different family and had bonded very closely with them.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so we really chose to combine our two families once we found out that we would be adopting them.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we are one big family now, uh, which is great.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we're able to maintain the communication and that relationship with their siblings.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have sleepovers, we see each other every weekend.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're very in close proximity, which is nice.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: But we also have some extended family members that the children see, grandparents, aunts, uncles, things like that.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: So while they're not able to be in contact with their parents, uh, we feel it's really important to maintain those connections.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: It is really important.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: And not a lot of adoptive parents do that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: That I have talked to, especially from my era, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: Closed adoptions, no way.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't do that at all.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: So there's something really beautiful about how you are, not to use this word as a pun, but fostering those relationships.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really, really great.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, what has it been like to step into this all at once alongside your husband's layoff and both of you being on parental leave?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: What tell me about navigating that?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was definitely a big change expanding the family.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it takes time to get to know each other.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's still kind of bonding, but then with it being uh two working parents in the home and the children in school, there really wasn't that time in the beginning.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um because no one's home.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: We see each other a couple hours in the evening and doing bedtime routines.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I was so grateful with my husband and I had 10 uh weeks of generous parental leave.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And as you mentioned, my husband ended up being laid off halfway through that leave, which was uh some added stress there, but um still having that time just together.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't have plans, we didn't have elaborate vacations or anything planned.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So just being able to hang out at home, play games, do things together as a family, and just stay in the normal things that going to the store or running an errand, it's just so important to foster that connection because sometimes children haven't done adoptive foster children, they haven't done these things that we take for granted.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think not only having the time to really be together 24 hours a day where there weren't other distractions, but being able to go do those things that are just day-to-day things that are so important to bring that family relationship together.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very much.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, what surprised you most with the day-to-day reality versus what you were expecting?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: What was the surprise for you?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think the training that is given to adoptive parents while lacking, I do think they do a good job of scratching the surface of some of the behaviors and things that you might expect.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: But what they don't do a good job of is telling you how to address those things on a daily basis.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where we really have that gap.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we did uh my husband and I have some counseling and therapy on our own, just he and I, to talk about those things with a therapist.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that was really, really helpful.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to bring different circumstances to that person and say, well, how how should I handle this?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes in the moment, you just don't have the word, you don't know what to do.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that was really, really helpful uh as far as being able to have a support system to help through some of those moments.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what was uh most surprising to me was just how the behaviors can be shaped just in the way that you approach things differently.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a stigma that I see put on foster and adoptive children.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: They have so many behaviors, or there's this thing or there's that thing going on, but it really is not because underlying all that is just really a fear, they're fear-based responses when they want to be loved and accepted.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so that has really been the most surprising thing to me.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: If I remain calm and I say the right things, then over time you we've seen such a huge, huge impactful changes in them.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that you sought out help because a lot of adoptive parents probably don't really even know that they may potentially need it.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And being told that there are going to be things that you may not know how to deal with when you adopt is an important thing to know, and to get help is so great.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm really encouraged that you are doing that.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: I know that there is a cultural and societal story around adoption that we hear a lot and even fostering of the kids being rescued or expected to be grateful.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we talk about this all the time in adopt these spaces that we should be grateful.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: What is that like for you, experiencing that on the adoptive parent side?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: What do you see when you hear that, or what do you think or feel when you hear that?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's it's upsetting to me.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel kind of compelled to want to correct those things.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've had many people, even in my circle, um, I think unknowingly make those kind of comments, like, yeah, how lucky how lucky these children are to have found you, or you just things that they don't mean the mean it to be harmful, but of course they it's harmful for me to hear it, and I'm sure is harmful as an adoptee to hear those things as well.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I just really try to stress with my children that they've gone through hard times.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: We have to acknowledge that.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we don't try to diminish that, we don't try to act like they only just started their life the moment they came to our home.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: We we are open to talking about those things and the struggles and not just ignoring those past uh circumstances, but just trying to make sure that they understand your past is what shapes you.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: How can we help you take what you've learned?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Look how strong you are, look how resilient you are.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so just really helping to shape that narrative more and to help with all the feelings that they have, and just trying to do our best to support those things so that they feel that they have us there in their corner as well.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, totally.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Have you noticed with them at all that there is potentially a need for them to what I call perform gratitude for you, uh, for their own safety and belonging, meaning they have to perform that in order for them to feel safe.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do you understand what I'm saying?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I understand what you're saying.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and yes, I've noticed um, especially in the beginning, a lot of uh as for example, uh just wanting to tell me, I love you, mommy, I love you over and over again.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: When it's like I acknowledge that and I I will respond to that, but I think it is difficult as as an adoptive parent to see that because what I see underlying that is just the yearning for acceptance, for love and and not wanting your child to feel like I don't want them to feel like they have to tell me a hundred times a day that they love me.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And what what can I do?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: What am I needing to do differently so that they feel loved in return?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think some of those things uh and and those are things just just to get not necessarily get attention, but to draw you toward them.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that again is some of those things.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do we change our behaviors to really make sure we have the connection so they don't feel like they're having to show this constant gratitude towards me because they shouldn't be grateful.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, they don't need to be grateful.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: We are a family and we're in this together.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I think there is a level of gratitude.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: There is, and I think they weren't rescued.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's it was more that this is what needed to happen for them to be taken care of.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and so it's okay to have gratitude for that.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think, in my opinion, I think what's difficult is when we are told that we have to have that in order to be loved, accepted, safe.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see what I'm saying?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think this connects to all sides of the constellation, the triad, the adoptee doesn't need to perform that in order to be loved.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: The birth parents sadly is incarcerated, and that's very difficult for them.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: They've lost that presence of the people that they're biologically connected to that had them.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: But then, of course, you've allowed the birth family to be available to them, which gives them a taste of what that's like.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: So you're creating an environment where they can feel loved, connected, safe, belonging.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: The important thing I think is for us, you tell me if you think I'm wrong, to find that love and belonging within ourselves so that we can exude it for them, so that they know that it's within them, that it's not your parents being incarcerated doesn't mean you aren't worthy of love and belonging.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I'm saying?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if experience something like that.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a huge part of it too.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because of their circumstances, that does affect them internally and their self-esteem.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And as much as we can show that to them, as you mentioned, uh, does help to build that within them.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I definitely agree with what you're saying.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: There is a sense because they do have and they understand that they're safe now.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: But what can we do to build that up even more?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think there is a difference between physical safety, emotional safety.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, you can be physically safe, but not emotionally safe.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think these things are important to understand.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think about when I was adopted, I was seven weeks old and I slept for 24 hours when my mom brought me home.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: She could not wake me up.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that really surprises me, but I still to this day I'm like, what?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: What was happening in the seven weeks that I felt like I had to sleep to rest?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: I must have physically felt somehow safe to be able to do that, you know?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: It I have no idea.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have any connection to what happened in those seven weeks, but physically I felt that.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what's really interesting is emotionally, I didn't because my mom would tell me, even when she tried to comfort me, I would push her away as a seven-week old.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: I it just is really right.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting to me.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I've learned so much now when I think about my own story, how much that must impact somebody who's seven, nine, eleven, what they've experienced before you, and and the trauma that lives inside of them that they probably don't have words for.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: The important thing is that you're willing to get the help that you need to be able to support them and to create.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Create a tool for parents to be able to use to be able to support these children that so desperately need it.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Where did this idea come from for you?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Was it your own experience of parenting them through big emotions and high stress moments?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or was it even before that it just was, I need to do something because I'm telling there is a gap.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: I can see there is a gap.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: It came from parenting them, not wanting to say the wrong things, because I was aware of these things on a surface level from the pre-adoptive training.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: But then having the children in the home really created just a sense of insecurity, I think, within myself.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Am I going to say the wrong thing?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so not wanting them to feel that I wasn't confident.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And also wanting to be able to support these behaviors so that they could feel the connection.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying the wrong thing to kind of draw this greater divide or make things even more difficult for them.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just a fear within myself, um, wanting to be the best parent that I could and wanting to help them as much as I could.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as I mentioned earlier, I really not only did we have a therapist that was working individually with us, which was great because he was able to directly talk to some of the things that we were experiencing and giving us different things to try.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: But if he wasn't there or I was faced with something that I just didn't know how to respond, then I was turning to Chat GPT and I would leave the room for a minute.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let me type this out really quickly and uh see if I can get a better response.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: What's a better thing to say in this moment?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it could have been little things too.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have two boys, the the seven and nine-year-old, and they might be fighting over a toy.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do I address this?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know how I might do that with my biological child, but this could be something really going on here that I don't don't really know what to say.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so something as simple as that was able to give me just words to say that I hadn't even considered before.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's just take a moment, let's put this toy aside, boys, and give them something else to play with, and just a different approach, and then I would see the children respond to that.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: They would calm down, they were able to take a break for a moment.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: So just by shifting how I said something, even in a slight way, they would respond differently.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I continued on down that path.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime I had a question or didn't feel confident in how to address something, I would leave the room for a minute, get my chat GPT out, and uh just ask it, okay, let me go try that.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Let me go go back to the room and uh see see how this works.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I found it working with homework.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of anxiety around homework in our house that was terrifying, I think.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if if you're behind in school and you didn't have the resources and you never had anyone helping you with homework, it was a huge point of anxiety.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was a big thing that I didn't know how to address that, how to make them feel comfortable.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it helped us through all of that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I really started thinking if other parents had a resource like this, because it takes me too long to go ask, it takes me too long to leave the room and go type in a question.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: I really need something just at the press of a button that can give me an answer.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it's not a perfect answer, it can deflect the situation and keep me from getting angry or keep myself regulated too, because it was just as much about that and and my own peace and my own demeanor and not letting them see me upset as it was about making them feel that that uh they were safe in the in the moment.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to provide a little clarity because I just realized I don't know if the listeners and viewers know this.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: You obviously have foster kids, but you have not had any biological children, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: I have three.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: I have three biological children.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: You have three.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for clarifying.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that I couldn't remember why what am I missing here?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because you mentioned biological versus adoptive, and this is a a point of contention for adopted people that they notice a difference in how they are loved, cared for as an adopted person versus the biological.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: What can you speak to or say to that?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think something that's come up in our home before.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, my uh adopted daughter and I have have talked about this because she did come to me one time and said, I feel like you're treating uh my biological daughter differently.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was, I thought really important for me to not only sit down and discuss how she was feeling, because certainly that's not something that I would want.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: But even if it's not a reality, as far as I was aware, it's her reality.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: If she's feeling that way, then that's real to her.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so in that case, we we did sit down and have a discussion about it.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I I fully transparent and listen to her feelings and try to make any corrections that I could that might be contributing to the way that she's feeling.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I do have um, there's a two-year age gap between my daughters, my biological and adopted, and then my two other biological children are adults.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it I think it was very much why the adult child is doing these things, but I'm I'm only 11.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um but still it doesn't negate the feeling.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very welcome and grateful that the conversation came up.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think anytime you have the opportunity to have those discussions just helps to really foster the relationship that you're trying to build because you've been thrown into a new family and you can operate as a family unit, but that doesn't mean that you don't still have these underlying things.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: You right, you are still new.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's only been a year and a half that we've had the children living with us.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about that, it still is a new family.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: We are there are still things that we are getting used to.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: We don't all know everything about each other.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: So just being open so that they know they can come to us with these things.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it's interesting because a lot of times what happens and what I hear from those who lived with the biological and were adopted is I love you the same, and yet they can see that it actually is different.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Partly because they're your biology, I'm not.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I have to deal with each of you in a different way.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that I love you the same can really be damaging, actually, because what they're witnessing doesn't actually prove that.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's I love that you have allowed for openness and honesty about that because I think it's it's so important for her to see you in that moment.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you probably were like, oh my gosh, trying to figure out how to respond and even self-regulate in that moment, which I love that you gave her the opportunity to express herself and didn't just say I love you the same, you're fine.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: You allowed, you allowed her the space.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: So this tool that you have created, you've already created it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you sent me a sample.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, what does self-regulation actually mean in practice for foster or adoptive parents in a hard moment?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: How would you describe that?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: To me, I describe self-regulation as just being able to have a sense of inner peace and that feeling as long as possible.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we've all been in moments where you could be frustrated or maybe there's an unsafe behavior happening and you need to redirect the child.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very difficult to maintain your own inner peace throughout that, especially if somebody's about to get hurt, or maybe the children are hurting each other and we want to have to separate them, and it's a high stress moment.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really what uh self-regulation means to me is maintaining a sense of peace within myself, even if there's a hard circumstance happening in front of me, is really the best way to describe it.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I found the more that I have practiced uh both using skills that the therapist taught me how to say things in a certain way, turning to chat GPT, and then now with this tool, it helps me to keep that inner peace longer, to stay in that moment longer, even when there's something happening around me that could be a behavior that I haven't seen before, or somebody in an unsafe moment.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: I can still feel regulated and maintaining that inner peace if I have the right words and I'm able to get my children to respond themselves in a in a more healthy way.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it's clear there is a belief for you that helping parents regulate is inseparable from helping kids feel safe.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it goes hand in hand to me because your response is directly related to how they're feeling.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they're going to mirror that.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: So do you want to tell me about how this app works?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you had originally pivoted from you you had an earlier idea about a job search app and what came out of the this brutal job market.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you were thinking of doing that, and then even your your own husband's layoff.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: So what caused you to decide to build this?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: And is that other one even there still?
• 33:09
  unknown: Yeah.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say just aside from all of that, um, it's an interesting time that we're living in with technology.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so really I would encourage anyone who wants to to do research.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: You have AI there available, uh, just start brainstorming with it, and it can help maybe solve problems just for yourself or other people.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I was working because of my husband's layoff and the brutal job market.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I did create an app.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: It started as an app for him to not a job search app, but really along the lines of AI.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do I navigate this market where AI might be replacing a lot of jobs, or the jobs might be changing significantly because of AI and wanting people that know those tools?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so how do you navigate that job market when the title, the job title you had might even be different, or different companies have different names for these things.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what my job search tool um is solving.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I ended up developing that uh and giving it away to thousands of people for free on LinkedIn just because I felt really compelled to help.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've built this thing, I want to get it out to people.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's a free tool to help uh people just be able to put those pieces together.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Where do I fit in this job market?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that was the first time you ever built an app, right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was the beginning of you realizing I can do this again and I can create something that would actually be a helpful tool for me.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's where that, that's where that came from, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: What was it like to build and launch something like this while also newly parenting these three kids and navigating that financial uncertainty?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we're still navigating the financial uncertainty.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So he has not found a new job yet.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think being able to channel the uncertainty in a healthy way has been really, really great for me just to feel like I have the tools, I have the ability to do something now.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: With AI, I can actually make this happen.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I can solve a problem to help myself and other people.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really where that came from.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: But just being able to launch this tool to help people, I think my main goal is just there's other people, there's other parents that are out there.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I've had when I did the beta testing, a lot of not only foster and adoptive parents, but just biological parents that had reached out and said, Well, I need this for me, and I use it on my biological daughter as well, the one that's still at home.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it works, I think, for anyone that's ever uh not known what to say to a child in a moment.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it uh has all ages uh in there, and it uh just to clarify, it is a research-based system.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the system itself does not use AI within it in any way.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not saving children's names or any person's data, nothing like that.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is simply um you can click a button.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is the problem I'm having, this is the situation I'm in, and this is the child's age, and it will give you an answer.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't like that, you can click a button again and it says, We'll try this instead.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's very, very quick, just in an instant, you can click two clicks, and you've got an answer on something that you can say in the moment.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole idea, as I said before, is just to help you keep regulated so that you're able to help help your child through what they're going through.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: So where does this project stand now?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's totally complete and ready to launch.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Where where are we?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: It is totally complete and ready, and anybody can uh test it out and use it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: See it's got a whole list of different behaviors in the tool.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: So from very, very minor things all the way up to very difficult uh behaviors that you might be facing, lying or harm, things like that.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, and like I said, there's no AI within the tool.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just simply research-based, and the answers that you're getting are based in that research.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just going to give you that answer that you need at the click of a button.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's pretty great.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: I remember when we first talked, I asked you, have you ever been on a podcast before?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you're like, Yeah, I was back in 2018, but it was all about e-commerce.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm just curious, how different does this feel from that?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was that was interesting.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I was delving into at the time just building an e-commerce store from scratch and didn't have any experience in that either.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that was uh really fun.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I did build the store, had a little bit of success from it, and that's why I was invited onto the podcast.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that was much more uh more of a marketing tools-based type of discussion.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh while it it probably helps some people, I think this discussion and this topic is way more uh impactful and I think can help and reach many more people that might be facing the same uncertainty that I was, just not knowing if you are saying the right thing or doing the right thing.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which I think is so important.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: So are you hoping that this may potentially provide a bit of a a built-in network for the foster adoptive community?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would hope so, because I my my goal is to just be able to help people.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: My goal with the job search app that I created was to help people.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and this is really the same thing.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: I feel there's not another tool out there like this.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's needed.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to go through training or have a therapist, but those things aren't at the tip of our fingers.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's when a behavior is happening and you need this, it's never the way that you expect it.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's never a textbook, it's never the way that it was explained in a training or the way that the therapist described it to you.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: It could be something that is completely out of left field and you just don't have the words.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that is really my hope is that it can help help people to bridge that gap in the moment when they really need something.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: And right now it's you're sharing it for free.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Correct?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Are you hoping that this may become an app that is for purchase?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I do have a free trial right now, so anyone can test it out for seven days.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then cool, if you like it, uh there's a small monthly fee associated with it.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that's just to uh really help bridge the cost.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there are some costs involved in running, running, and hosting uh the app.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think the next step, if if the uh response is good and it's helping people, I'd love to be able to grow the app.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there is the ability to enter feedback in the tool.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: So people can suggest things and they come directly to me.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love to get it eventually published uh in the uh the app store to be able to have on your phone.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right now it's just a web-based system.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: So um you can still get it on your phone, but it's not an actual app that you would get through the app store yet.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you created this app because there were resources you wish you had.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the reason why you did it.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Are there any other resources you wish you had other than this that didn't exist or don't exist that you wish did?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think maybe more networks of just adoptive and foster parents, which they do exist, but I think they can sometimes be difficult to tap into.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: There are groups online, different communities and things, but having a local, local networking groups and a way to more easily connect with people uh that might be in your same phase.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I wonder if that is something that you could add.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe so.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe so.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know people that foster, I know people that adopt, but they're in very different phases or stages than myself.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've found that's been a little bit difficult to find somebody locally.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go have a coffee.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and and chat.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, and there probably are ways to do that, but I have not found anything in my local community.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you located?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in Atlanta, Georgia.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've been there.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's hot in the summer.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: It is very hot, right.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe that is something that would be really cool to add.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever heard of the organization Parenting Different?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: I have not.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I will potentially add the link for them as well, along with whatever links you send me into the show notes, but that is specifically for adoptive parents.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's something that I, Isaac Edder, who is an adoptee himself, started that organization.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's now run by somebody else, but it's it's a great organization for this.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: The reason I brought it up is because maybe it would help you.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: So the next thing I want to ask is what would you say to a parent in the middle of a hard moment with their child right now?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if they did not have an app in front of them, um, I would just say take take a breath.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to step away for a moment, you know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have to have an answer right now.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So just take a moment to step away and collect your thoughts and then come back to the situation.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the biggest lessons that I think I've learned just being a newly adopted parent is I don't have to address everything right immediately.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: If there's not a crisis where someone is in danger, it's okay.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Just let it be.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can step away for a moment and really think about what I need to say in this moment.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's a lesson I could have used as a biological parent as well.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that applies to anyone.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to control every situation the way that we want to.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to let some things go or take a break for a minute and come back to it.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Or say, I don't know how to respond to this situation right now.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: I need to go take a beat.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh love that.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: So what's next for you?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: Are you working on anything new or adding anything to the app?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: What's next?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's interesting.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think what's next is I would just love to get this in the hands of more people that can use it and see how it is able to help them, what kind of feedback that that they would have so that I can improve it.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: And also just keep developing things that I see a need for.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: So even since we chatted last, Julie, I created a study app for my daughter.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: She is uh in in middle school, she's in eighth grade, she'll be in high school next year, really concerned about getting good grades.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that age where you're learning study habits, learning how to organize yourself, and she's already thinking about college and wanting to make sure that her grades are are doing well.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I developed a study app for her where she can take a photo of her study notes from school and it will create questions for her and it will quiz her on what she's learning in school.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think again, AI, um while I don't love everything about it, it's okay to take advantage of it, and we all have that ability.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: How can I solve a problem that I have?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that was really nice to be able to create something for my daughter when I saw a need and she was able to share that with her friends and just seeing them using the app and coming home and being really proud.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, look, I got an 89 on on the science test, and and knowing that I I had a a hand in creating that.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Talent, my friend.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, seriously, very, very cool.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, where can people find you the easiest?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: Your tool that you've created, and do you have a website where they can go?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I will put all of this into in the show notes.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the the app is called Phrasewell.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you can find that at phrasewell.net, and then there is a contact page there if you want to reach out to me directly.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you're on Instagram too.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you'd want people to have that information as well.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't even know what my Instagram is.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's court y.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Court Y.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yes.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: C-O-U-R-T-W-H-Y.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And same on LinkedIn if you want to find me on LinkedIn.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I've been posting about some of the other uh things that I've been working on.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you're interested in the career app that I created for my husband, you can find that there.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a link on LinkedIn to it.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is so cool.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, as we close today, I wanted to focus on something that Courtney said that sits with me because I have felt this too: that when we ask kids to be grateful for being rescued, when what they actually need is to be allowed to just be kids, grieving what they lost, especially when their parents are incarcerated, while also slowly building something new, like you talked about.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's not a small distinction.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's really the whole thing.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's learning and and knowing that it is true for a lot of what we talk about on this podcast.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: Real support isn't a rescue story with a tidy ending.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's parents learning to regulate themselves in the hard moments.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's making room for birth family instead of riding them out of the picture.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's building the resource you needed and didn't have.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: Even when you're exhausted and the timing is terrible, as we found with your situation.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: So Courtney is clearly in the middle of a lot right now with new kids in her home after a year, family navigating a layoff still, a tool that you're still hoping to get out into the world, and you are, which is awesome.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for showing up here and being willing to talk about it all, honestly.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really glad that you've been here, and I'm really glad that the listeners and viewers are here.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else you want to say, Courtney?
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just thank you so much for having me on, Julie.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really appreciate it and just really enjoyed the conversation.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been great connecting with you.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: If this one landed for you, sit with it a minute before you move on to whatever is next in your day.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and Courtney, as this work grows, there is a seat here for you to come back and tell us more.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love to see y'all here next time.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: As I always say, stop outsourcing belonging and insource it and remember that you are not alone.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you found this podcast helpful for you, please go ahead and review it on any podcast app or write a review.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be really honored to receive that so that more adopted people and those who love them can hear and be able to share and spread the news about what we are talking about here.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, you're never alone, and thank you so much for being here.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: Have a great Thursday.