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The Fate of Traditionis Custodes · Crisis Point

• 0:02
  Okay, welcome. I want to today talk about the traditional at Mass and about tradition as custodes. Hopefully this week we will not get cut off because the power goes out, because the tornado goes basically almost through my backyard. I feel like actually there's no storms here. Everything should be good. But that's what happened last week on the live show. And I apologize for people who are in the live chat and I couldn't respond to your comments because I just everything went dark. But I do appreciate you being on and today I'll make sure I get to the. The live chat as well.
• 0:31
  So this is something, of course, of interest to many people in my audience, the crisis audience, the traditional Latin Mass. And I want to talk about the status of the tlm, particularly in America. I not making any statements about the traditional Latin Mass in other countries. I'm simply talking about in America. But I do think America is a good flashpoint for it because the TELOM is more popular in America than perhaps any country other than maybe France.
• 1:02
  And so, and of course, our Pope is American. And so he's going to know more than the average Pope might about what it's like in America. And so I want to talk about just how it's what's happened since the Pope Leo was elected and what I think is going to happen going forward.
• 1:20
  And the truth is Pope Leo has been Pope now for, what is it, about 15 months or so, since May of 2025.
• 1:28
  And there's been some, I would say, mixed messaging with what church leaders have done under the Pope. Mostly negative, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's been mostly good, but mostly negative. And I want to go through some of that just so we all kind of know what's going on here.
• 1:44
  The first. So I want to go through places where the TLM has either been restricted or shut down since Pope Leo was elected. So not before he was elected under Francis, but since sense he was, because there was some speculation I might have even said something like this and Pope Leo's elected, that maybe bishops would kind of hold off on doing anything too extreme when it comes to tradition as custodas and traditional Latin Mass to wait to see what Pope Leo thinks.
• 2:12
  Well, some bishops went ahead and acted anyway. In, in fact, in soon after Leo was elected, Bishop Martin, Michael Martin of the Diocese of Charlotte, North Carolina, someone infamously shut down basically every TLM in the diocese and moved it all to one location. And it was a, if I remember correctly, it's like a former Episcopal Church or Something that's tiny, can't really fit, not that great location or anything like that. And he has been an enemy. There's no question Bishop Martin has been an enemy of the Traditional Latin Mass, frankly, an enemy of Catholicism in a lot of his actions. And so this is one of the most egregious. And he announces, I think it was right after the Pope was elected, but then he held off and didn't implement it until October of 2025.
• 2:56
  So I think probably what happened is he waited to see if the Vatican would say, no, don't do that. And when they didn't, he's like, okay, I'm going to go ahead and do what I want to do. Or maybe they told him, definitely go do it. But either way, they definitely, they did not tell him, don't do it. Obviously, then the bishop of the. The Archbishop of Detroit, and I think this. In June of 2025, Archbishop Weisenberger, he basically issued a decree formalizing the end of all Traditional Latin Masses with. And then he established it in a few. A few locations. Now, it's important to note here the context. Detroit probably was maybe Arlington, Virginia, but Detroit probably was the diocese in America that had the most traditional Latin Masses per capita, or whatever you want to say. I mean, they just had a lot. I remember going up there in February of 2024. I think it was. I'm 100 sure what year it was. It was 2024. And I, I stayed at a rectory of a parish that did the Traditional Latin Mass and that number of priests who offered it. And it was just everywhere. I mean, the TLM was very well represented in Detroit, and yet Weisenberger shut most of it down.
• 4:10
  There is an Institute of Christ the King parish there, and I do believe there's a couple other locations where they do still the tlm, but it's been greatly restricted in Detroit. No question. This is after Pope again, after Pope Leo was elected. Soon after he was elected.
• 4:26
  Then in the Diocese of. Of Knoxville, Tennessee, the bishop there, Bishop Mark Beckman, I think it is, he shut down the TLM, he and just basically said no more TLMs effective. I think it was in November. Yeah, basically at the end, you know, for Advent of that year.
• 4:44
  And that shut down a couple different TLMs in that diocese. The Diocese of Owensburg, Kentucky, Bishop William Medley, he also, he ended the diocese sole remaining diocesan Traditional Latin Mass in June of 2026. So just a couple months ago.
• 5:01
  And then most recently in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the bishop there, I think Bishop Ekman, I believe Bishop Ekman, he basically said that a diocesan TLM would be shut down, that they wouldn't petition the Vatican. This is the language they use for continued permission to celebrate it, as if you have to have permission from a middle manager to celebrate the Mass of the Ages. But he shut down. I think it was at St. Titus Church in the Diocese of Pittsburgh. Now there is an institute of Christ the King still in Pittsburgh that still is operating. And what we see here is most of these ones have shut it down.
• 5:44
  What they're doing is they're taking what Francis really wanted, which was the first step, which is you eliminate from all diocesan parishes and you only allow it places like a fraternity, St. Peter or Institutes of Christ the King or Torre, St. Philip Neri, something like that, allow it in those. But you don't allow it any diocesan parishes. And that's basically what these guys did. But they took it. They basically made it clear they don't want, they want as few TLMs as possible. I think it was in, Was it in Pittsburgh?
• 6:13
  No, I think it was. Oh, it was in Owensboro. This is, this was just unbelievable.
• 6:18
  Owens. Owensboro. Sorry, Kentucky. I should know that. It's not too far from me there. He basically said, you can't celebrate the tlm, but I will allow you the one exception to celebrate the, the Novus Ordo in Latin or. And ad orientum. But it's. And he made it clear that's the only exception, the only time in the whole diocese. I'm going to allow that as if that was some great gift to them.
• 6:43
  So what we saw, though, is in the first year of Leo's pontific, first 15 months of Leo's pontificate, many a number of bishops. How many? That's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 that I know of. And there might be others.
• 6:55
  American bishops have restricted the, the celebration of tlm, and to our knowledge, nothing has been, no discipline has come to them. No, nobody from the Vatican say, no, don't do that.
• 7:07
  It's clearly been allowed. And, and, and, and so they, they've gotten the message, you can do this and you're not going to get in trouble with the Vatican.
• 7:16
  Now, that being said, I do want to also note there have been some positive developments with the TLM that may or may not have happened under Francis in America.
• 7:27
  In the Diocese of San Angelo, Texas, Bishop Michael Sis, he basically did petition for an exemption to the traditional Latin Mass for a parish there and was granted it by Pope Leo.
• 7:41
  Also, he added a new monthly TLM at another location in the diocese. And then in Diocese of Cleveland, the bishop there also In October of 2025, he also gave another, another temporary extension to the TLM to celebrate the TLM at two parish diocesan parishes there in the Diocese of Cleveland. And then probably the most significant was in the Diocese of Arlington, which like I said, is along with previously Detroit, probably the diocese of the most TLMs, at least historically over the past 15 or so years, he announced these. The bishop there, Bishop Burbage, announced the establishment of a FSSP chapel in the diocese. And so that's a big deal because obviously a new FSSP chapel means a parish that will have all the sacraments in the traditional rite, all the Masses will be in the traditional. Right. Which is really the ideal situation.
• 8:40
  Parish situations are, some are, can be good, but sometimes they're very restrictive on what they can do.
• 8:46
  So I think it's a mixed bag, but I think it leans negative because obviously bishops are allowed to restrict the TLM under Pope Leo and the Vatican will not tell them to stop, will not tell them don't do that. But also some bishops have been able to extend the celebration of traditional at Mass and the Vatican has not refused that either.
• 9:06
  So what we see here is a little bit of both. And I think in general, the fact that we have more being shut down or being restricted than being added in America is more a statement on likely the state of American, the American episcopacy, the bishops in America, than it is about the, about the Vatican itself or Pope Leo.
• 9:30
  Now, we also had a couple of the comments that have to do with this issue. First is from Cardinal Roche. He of course is the head of the Diascorie on divine worship. So I mean, he's the number one guy when it comes to liturgy in the church today. And he said recently that he goes, I quote him, quote, pope Leo is not going to change tradition as Custodis. He's not going back to Sumora Pontificum. And this is a big deal because Roche is the guy and his term ended, I believe it was a couple months ago. But he has not been replaced yet. So he's still the head. Which says something as well.
• 10:07
  That being said, that being said, I, I don't think we can take Roche as gospel when it comes to knowing what Pope Leo thinks. I don't think Roche is a known self promoter. He's a known windbag and just like says whatever he thinks, what he wants. He tries to like say what he wants and state it into Existence, so to speak. So I don't think we should take that as definitely true.
• 10:34
  But at the same time, it does carry a lot of weight. Now, I will also say Archbishop Cordleone of San Francisco, one of our best bishops here in America. He said, I quote him, I don't know how well he knows the mind. I don't know how well he knows the mind of the Holy Father, meaning Roche. And remember, Corleone just was appointed to the Vatican Supreme Court. Yes, it doesn't do with liturgy, but we're not talking about some bishop who is, is on the outs with the Vatican or obscure fringe like that. We're talking about a guy who just literally was appointed by Pope Leo to be one of the top people in the, in basically what's the, the, the Vatican Supreme Court. So I mean that I think that carries some weight, but he essentially said that, in fact, I'll go on. He also said, to be honest, I don't think restricting the TLM is realistic.
• 11:27
  We look at the younger generation, they all love the tradition. They love the more classical way that the church worships their traditional Mass. So clearly we all know Cordleone's a fan, a supporter, at the very least, the traditional Mass. I've been to a Mass, a traditional Mass that he has celebrated, and it was at the Eucharistic Congress a couple years ago in Indianapolis. So he's very open about his support for the traditional Latin Mass. And again, that wasn't something that got him banished from any possibility of helping from the Vatican. He was still able to be appointed to a high ranking position at the Vatican even though he's openly supportive of the traditional Mass. And so we see some battling here under Pope Leo, between bishops, about, okay, what is the direction, what should we do about the traditional Latin Mass?
• 12:16
  We also, of course, you have to throw into this mix the whole SSPX situation. I've talked about this a lot. I'm not going to go through it here in this podcast, but I am just going to note that that is a factor, obviously, and some could argue, I would probably lean this direction, that the consecrations, at least in the short term, harm the traditional Latin Mass movement by making it more associated with a disobedient act. The traditional Mass and traditional spirituality and things like that associate more with a disobedient act. And I think that was probably, that's probably a net negative. I know there's others who would argue that, no, it was necessary, it needed to be done. And like I said, I'm not going to get into this now because I've talked about ad nauseam in the past, but I think what we see here is just to give a general sense of the state of the TLM under Leo is there's no clear direction.
• 13:12
  There's no clear direction. Anybody who tells you that Pope Leo is definitely against the TLM or definitely for it or whatever, they're, they're either they're ignorant or they're lying because there is no clear direction.
• 13:24
  That being said, there is definitely some negative movements, probably more negative against the TLM than positive.
• 13:33
  And I think that might be, again, the state of the bishops more than Pope Leo himself. Pope Leo himself has also, and I, oh, I forgot to write this down, but I believe that he wrote to a, a conference in France. I believe it was where he, he, he told them, the bishops there, to basically show support for the tlm. It's one of the few times he has talked about the TLM explicitly and he, he was generally supportive of it, at least the fact that bishops should not try to shut it down.
• 14:03
  So, so there we go. I mean, we, we have, you know, we have this situation where it's not exactly clear. There are definitely forces in the Catholic Church, don't get me wrong, that want to shut down the tlm. I mean, there's no question about that. I think Cardinal Roche would love to. Somebody like Cardinal Cupich would love to, Bishop Martin and Charlotte would love to. And so I'm not saying that there aren't forces. I'm just saying overall, what's the general sense and what's Pope Leo's sense?
• 14:31
  Now, there was a little bit of a quote unquote controversy on X last week about a, a letter that Pope Leo sent to Cardinal Roche. I was going to put up on the screen here, but then I realized, and I will, but it's too small. And it basically was for a conference that was just recently held in Oregon, a liturgy conference that Cardinal Roche was at.
• 14:55
  And he wrote a.
• 14:57
  Pope Leo wrote a letter to him.
• 14:59
  Now, those who kind of are aware of what goes on in these things understand this was literally a perfunctory letter sent from the papal office to a conference to basically say, hey, I'm praying for you. I hope you're doing a good job. And here's some things to think about.
• 15:18
  There is nothing about this.
• 15:21
  Making this letter to be a controversy is a complete nothing burger.
• 15:26
  It's a complete nothing burger. It just is a standard performa pro forma, sorry, pro forma letter sent to these type of conferences that really, it's not. It doesn't mean that much. And also, it didn't say that much. If you read. It doesn't say that much. I mean, I went to an astronomy conference recently, and it was in Cincinnati. And the governor, yes, I am a nerd. The governor of Ohio sent a letter basically welcoming people who are coming to the city of Cincinnati and saying some nice things about astronomy, blah, blah, blah.
• 15:55
  Nobody thinks anything of it. It's a nice little gesture.
• 15:58
  The governor himself obviously did not write it and probably didn't even know it existed except for maybe signing it. Maybe he didn't even sign it himself. The point is, let's not read too much in this. But the passage that got a lot of kind of the controversy around it was when he said, in my recent catechesis on the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy, I have called attention to the respect that all those called to prepare the celebration of Divine Mysteries, and priests in particular, must show towards the rights promulgated by Pope St. Paul VI and Pope St. Paul II. It is violet. This respect, quote, springs from an inner attitude of openness and trust in God, manifesting humility before his greatness and sincere fidelity to ecclesiastical ecclesial communion. End quote. Now, I don't get, like, why people thought that was some big deal, like he said, like the respect towards preparation in the celebration of Sacred Mysteries, in the rights promulgated by Paul VI and John Paul ii. Okay, so what he basically is saying is all these priests who are there who all celebrate the Novus Ordo. That's what he means when he says the rights promulgated by Paul VI and John Paul ii, the Novus Ordo.
• 17:14
  He's basically saying, when you celebrate it, you should do it properly. You should show respect in your preparation for it.
• 17:22
  Who on earth. What trad. For example, who on earth will be against that?
• 17:27
  I mean, I know the. The progressives might be against it. I mean, I mean, among conservative and even traditional Catholics, who doesn't want them to properly celebrate, when they celebrate the Novus Oro, just to. To at least do the best they can to celebrate the best they can. Now, I'm not getting an argument about whether or not, you know, the problems in Novus Ordo itself or anything like that. I'm just simply saying that's all the Pope was saying here.
• 17:51
  He wasn't making some statement about, like, I mean, remember, his world is the Novus Ordo is the norm. And all the people at this conference, I'm willing to bet they exclusively Celebrated the Novus Ordo. And that's all they talked about, was the Novus Ordo. I mean, Cardinal Roche is going to it. I guarantee that's the case.
• 18:10
  And that's the case. Why, what's, what's, there's being said here now I will say I, I think there's some criticism to be levied here against Pope Leo about this.
• 18:20
  Do something about it then. Holy Father, if you remember, Pope Francis wrote that letter. It started with a D, I can't remember the name of it.
• 18:30
  Near the end of his pontificate, calling for the, the proper celebration of the Novus Ordo and doing it with respect and all this stuff, reverence, all that.
• 18:39
  But of course nothing happened. There was never any movement to actually make, actually get priests to celebrate it properly.
• 18:48
  And the same thing's happening here. Pope Leo says, hey, priests should really prepare the celebration of Divine Mysteries in the Novus Ordo. They should, they should have respect in preparing for it. Okay, great.
• 19:02
  So what are you gonna do if they don't?
• 19:06
  What are you going to do if they're ad libbing the whole thing, if they're celebrating it with complete irreverence, if they're doing all these problems? Are you going to have any teeth behind these statements?
• 19:18
  Because they clearly had teeth behind their, their, their warnings against the sspx.
• 19:24
  They warned them, don't do the consecration, we excommunicate you. And they did excommunicate them.
• 19:30
  Well, when they're saying the priests have respect, when you prepare for the Sacred Liturgy, what are you going to do when they don't?
• 19:39
  Nothing. They're going to do nothing. If the past is any prologue, they're going to do nothing. Francis did nothing. Benedict did nothing. Really. Benedict probably did the most, but he really did nothing. JP2 definitely did nothing and Leo's done nothing. So if we're going to criticize the Pope, and I think he's beyond criticism, it's the fact that he, he makes statement, he's, he's making a statement like this where you need to celebrate the Mass with respect. And yet when people, when priests don't, nothing happens. If you complain to an, a bishop, almost any bishop in the world that, you know, maybe a Novus Ordo was not celebrated with, with reverence and respect, nothing's going to happen.
• 20:18
  Nothing's going to happen.
• 20:19
  So that's the real problem. But this idea that somehow this is like he's saying all priests, I think people were interpreting like he's saying all priests have to respect the Novus ordo or something like that. It's not what he's saying, but also it's not really that surprising if he did say that. But that's not what he's saying.
• 20:36
  Now. Here's the reality.
• 20:39
  I don't think. I think it's unlikely. I think it's unlikely that Pope Leo is going to make any major changes. I don't think he's going to. I think he's just going to continue to let things be as they are. Which, by the way, I want to make clear when I'm saying what I think is going to happen. It's not saying what I want to happen.
• 20:57
  It's not saying what I want to happen. It's simply saying the reality on the ground. And I think he will continue to let things they are. Which is not good, but it's not Francis level bad because I do think there's a big difference between a pope who openly and unreservedly persecutes and attacks traditionalists and the traditional Latin Mass and a pope who doesn't.
• 21:19
  Call me crazy, but I think there's a difference between those two things.
• 21:24
  Francis openly persecuted traditional Catholics, a lot of conservative Catholics, too, and the traditional Latin Mass.
• 21:32
  Pope Leo has not done that. Now, he also hasn't lifted the main persecution, which is traditionus custodis.
• 21:42
  So I'm not like giving him credit for being like a pope of true reform. He's not as good as Benedict on this, that's for sure. Least not yet.
• 21:50
  But he's not. He's not Francis Lovel.
• 21:53
  And also I think, I do still think we're early on. I mean, he's a younger pope and so he could be pope for a very long time. I think what's going to matter is what we see is the appointments he makes. For example, who does he select to replace Roche?
• 22:07
  If it's another guy like Roche, I think we just have to say, okay, this isn't good, this isn't good. This is going to be similar to the Francis era. But if you pick somebody better, okay, let's give him credit. He's better. Also bishops like Cardinal Chapu in, in Chicago, who obviously is, is a persecutor of the Latin Mass, who will he pick to replace Cardinal Cupich?
• 22:31
  And so I think those are the type of things like when he picked. Note that he, the guy he picked to replace Dolan in New York was not a persecutor of the traditional at Mass.
• 22:43
  And so I think that was a good sign. I'm not saying he was a cheerleader for it. I'm just simply saying he did not pick somebody. He did not pick a Francis level type of replacement for Dolan. And I think that we should acknowledge that and recognize that.
• 22:57
  But here's the main thing. I think.
• 23:01
  Here's the thing. I think most trads, most traditional Catholics get wrong when they analyze this whole situation, when they look at what's going on.
• 23:12
  And here it is.
• 23:14
  You're not that important.
• 23:16
  I say you're not that important. I include myself in that. We're not that important. We're not that important. We're simply not on the radar more than a tiny blip.
• 23:28
  We're no more than a tiny blip on the radar of the Vatican.
• 23:32
  They just simply don't think about us that much.
• 23:36
  Yes, when the SSPX did their thing, they're like, okay, we got to do something about that. But even then, I guarantee you, Leo was not spending all of June thinking about the sspx.
• 23:48
  He just simply wasn't. It just wasn't that important to him.
• 23:52
  And to be honest, for almost every single church leader, except for maybe, you know, somebody like Bishop Athanasius Schneider, the traditional at Mass and the people who attended aren't that big a deal to them. They just don't. They just don't register.
• 24:07
  We just don't register on their, on their radar. We're not a priority. So, like, for example, when Pope Leo wrote that about that statement where he said, respect for preparation of divine celebration of divine mysteries in the right promulgated by Paul vi and John 20. John, John Paul II, he wasn't thinking, oh, this is a way to kind of own the trads. Or, or Chris as a trads. He. I guarantee he wasn't even thinking about the trans. Or whoever wrote that was even thinking about him, because his reality is the Novus Ordo. And that's the case for almost every bishop in the world. That 99.9% of the time they think of the liturgy, they think of the Novus Ordo.
• 24:46
  Let me give, let me give a comparison here.
• 24:49
  So as many of you know who watch this, you know, follow me on social media. Here is. I'm a big supporter of bitcoin, and I've been using bitcoin for a very long time.
• 25:00
  And I've gone down the rabbit hole and I've studied bitcoin. I've written a book about bitcoin.
• 25:05
  Well, here's the thing. When I think of money, when I hear the word money, one of the first things I associate with is bitcoin.
• 25:12
  I think of bitcoin when I hear the word money, bitcoin kind of comes into my consciousness. And so when somebody says something about money that is stupid, like about how the government should control money and print it and stuff like that, or, you know, we should have a inflationary monetary supply and all that stuff, I automatically think that person, okay, doesn't know what they're talking about because I understand money as it should be understood. And I. I compare it to bitcoin.
• 25:38
  Well, now, think about that in this world, in the Catholic world, and I could save myself. I'll use myself as an example. I've been attending the traditional at Mass for 15 years, almost just a little bit longer than I've been into bitcoin. And I.
• 25:54
  When I hear the word liturgy, one of the first things that comes to my mind, one of the first associations I have, is the traditional Latin Mass. When I think of liturgy, I think the traditional Latin Mass. And so when somebody says something about the Novus Ordo, and that's something like, oh, it's good for the priest to face the people and, you know, be in community with them or something like that, I immediately like, oh, that's stupid. Because my first thought is I'm associating with the traditional at Mass.
• 26:20
  And so that's how I think of any comment about the liturgy. And I think that's how most traditional Catholics, hardcore traditional Catholics, when they hear the word liturgy, they immediately think traditional at Mass and they put it in that context.
• 26:33
  Yet that is not true for the vast majority of Catholics, and definitely the vast, vast majority of bishops, when they hear liturgy. The traditional at Mass isn't even thought of. It's not even associated with the word. They just simply think of the liturgy they've celebrated their whole lives, which is the Novus Order, the right promulgated by Paul VI and John Paul ii.
• 26:57
  And so they just don't make these decisions. So when, when a.
• 27:01
  When the Pope even is making a decision, who do I put in charge? Or divine worship? Or in divine worship, he's not thinking, oh, what does this guy think of a traditional at Mass?
• 27:12
  That simply is just not as right. It might cross his mind at some point in the process for something as big a deal as that, but it's way down the list of priorities in his mind.
• 27:24
  And that's the reality for most bishops. Most bishops, they just simply. They spend their day. I've worked directly for a bishop, and I've seen them act what he does throughout his day. And I know what other bishops and other bishops are like this as well.
• 27:38
  They simply do not think of the traditional Latin Mass the vast majority of the time. And they don't think of that, the liturgy wars or anything like that. Most bishops are just thinking about, okay, I got to make sure I keep the trains running on time. I gotta make sure the donations are coming. I gotta make sure I have enough priests. I gotta make sure the parishes, you know, I gotta take care of this country. That's controversy. I have to put this out in the public face. I have to do this, you know, for Catholic Charities. That's the type of stuff that their day is consumed by.
• 28:03
  It's not consumed with like ours can be with, oh, this, you know, church. Latin Mass is superior. We need to celebrate like this. Oh, look at this Latin Mass, things like that. It's just simply not something that is on their mind. And so I think this idea that we read every statement, we read the tea leaves, whenever the Pope says anything related to liturgy and try and make it like, oh, look how much he's against insurance Latin Mass. He's not against it. He just doesn't care that much. Again, I'm not saying this way I think it should be. I'm just simply saying this is the way it is on the ground. It just simply isn't that important.
• 28:37
  Now, I also want to say that, That, okay, so what?
• 28:47
  I was going to tell a story, but I think I'm going to skip telling the story. I told it on X if you want to see it about me going to a local Novus Ordo parish this past Sunday.
• 28:57
  So what is, what is the path going forward? You know, what is it? And I would say it's a battle between what we want and versus what is reality.
• 29:06
  We want everything to be changed overnight. We want it so that tomorrow the traditional at Mass at the very minimum, is free to be celebrated by any priest in the world who wants to celebrate it anywhere he wants to celebrate at a minimum. I think that's what those of us who love the traditional at Mass would want. Obviously, the ideal in the long term is that the traditional Latin Mass becomes the unique and sole Roman Rite again like it had been for over a thousand years.
• 29:37
  Well, it wasn't the sole one. Okay. You know what I mean?
• 29:42
  But I do think that what we need. But I don't think that's going to happen overnight. We know it's not going to happen overnight. These changes take time.
• 29:50
  Because here's the thing, you can destroy something in a Day, but it takes decades to build it up. Because some people say, well, look what they did in the 60s, they did that overnight. Why can't we just do the reverse overnight? That's just not how it works in the world with humanity. It's much easier to destroy, to take down, than it is to build up. And the reality is going from traditional at Mass to the Novus Ordo was a destruction of certain kind.
• 30:20
  And going the other way is a building up. And so it's going to take a lot longer to build up than it is to destroy. What the reformers did, the revolutionaries did in the 1960s was a process of destruction. Not complete nutter destruction, but it definitely was a process of destruction. And so it's going to take a lot longer to repair it than it took to, to tear it down.
• 30:41
  And the fact it's been in place now for almost 60 years, over 50 years.
• 30:47
  But I think, though, the. The reality is, I do think with Leo, I was going to say we're going in the right direction, but I wouldn't say that. I. I would say we've halted the decline that was accelerated, or at least we slowed it down. The decline that was accelerated under Pope Francis. I think that's probably the best way to put it. We've at the very least slowed down the destruction that was happening under Pope Francis, under Pope Leo. We perhaps haven't reversed it. I would say we probably. We haven't reversed it. I would say.
• 31:19
  I'd say we reverse it. Is if the Pope rescinded Tradition Custodis and implemented Sumo Pontificum or something like that, now we can complain. Now, what I see, though, is I see trads often. This is how they, like I said, they get this wrong. They think that because it's so important to them, it's. Everybody else has it on their mind. They just simply don't. They simply don't. And so you can, you can rail on Pope Leo, call him Francis 2.0 and how awful he is, or you can just recognize that he's not that bad when it comes to traditional Mass. He's not great, but he's not Francis. He clearly does not have a personal vendetta against the TLM like Francis did. And that's good.
• 32:00
  I mean, take a. Take a win. Even if it's a small win, take a win. I mean, we got first down on a play and you're acting like we just got sacked in the end zone for a safety, and that's just simply not the case. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize him when it's necessary to do so, but I am saying these, these crazy conspiracy theories and like, you know, I've seen people talking about this letter to Roche, how it was all part of a plan that was related to the SSPX consecration, all that stuff. It's just, that's craziness that, that it just, it's simply not true.
• 32:33
  If we, if we want to act like, you know, online, we're these based, you know, counter revolutionaries who are fighting for the truth and all that. And so we're just going to show everybody how awful the Vatican is and how awful Pope Leo is. And he's just Francis 2.0. And anybody who doesn't think that everything is the worst it's ever been in the history of humanity, even worse under Francis is just a, a big, I don't know, quizzling or whatever.
• 32:58
  You can do that. But I would just say grow up. I mean, frankly, grow up because you're not being prudent at all. You're not helping anybody. You're, you're, you're make. You're giving yourself a dopamine hit. You might be giving other people a dopamine hit, but it's not furthering the cause of traditionalism. It's not furthering the cause of traditional mass. You're just giving yourself a dopamine hit, feeling yourself good, making sure you have avatars yourself online with like knights armor on and stuff like that. I mean, it's joke. You're cosplaying, frankly.
• 33:27
  We need to recognize instead we need to be smart, we need to be prudent. We need to recognize what is the current status in the church today. And the current status in church today is mostly most people don't care and that's not a good thing. So we need to do things like a good example of things we can do is like what Master the Ages did the documentary did a couple years ago.
• 33:49
  Educate people, inform people about traditional ms, continue to talk about, evangelize about it, talk about why it's great. Yes, criticize Novus Ordo at times. I think that's fine. I think people who get upset and offended because you criticize the right. I don't get why.
• 34:03
  I honestly don't understand why attendees of the Novus Ordo, defenders of it, get offended when you say something, criticize them about the Novus Ordo because you didn't write the right, you didn't create it, so why would you be offended?
• 34:18
  It just makes no Sense, if you're one of the people who created it back in the 60s, okay, you can be offended. Otherwise, if you just attend it. We're not saying anything about you.
• 34:26
  We're talking about what they created back in the 60s that you had nothing to do with.
• 34:31
  Learn to take a little criticism. But I just think, though, as trads, we need to recognize how we do things. We need to be smart about how we do things.
• 34:39
  We can. We should speak out when it's necessary. But just creating controversies like with this letter to Roche, when they don't actually exist, they don't help the cause any. Like I said, they give you your dopamine hit, they probably harm the cause, and they make us look, you know, stupider and more likely the Vatican isn't going to listen to us when we do speak out because we've cried wolf on every single little thing.
• 35:02
  And so recognize, though, when you're dealing with somebody, when I'm talking to somebody about. When I'm talking to somebody who knows nothing about bitcoin, about Bitcoin, I recognize they don't care. And so a lot of times I won't talk to them if they don't care at all. But if they ask me questions, I recognize it's not on the radar. We need to do the same thing with the traditional Latin Mass to a typical Catholic, it's just simply not on his radar. And so we need to do small steps at times to introduce them to it, invite them to come sometime. Invite someone to come to your TLM pair, something like that. But just don't act like the whole world, the whole world is a conspiracy against the tlm. It's not. It's more a matter of indifference towards the tlm, which. That's what we have to fight. And it's a. You fight that differently than actual frontal attacks like. Like Francis made. Now we're more an era of indifference. And so I think we need to recognize that.
• 35:49
  Okay, let me get to some of the comments here. Again, thank you everybody, for jumping comments. I just realized we forgot to put the comments on the. The screen while we were podcasting. Sorry about that. Okay. Youtubio says Philip Campbell has an article in the history of papal corrections. Stop waiting. It's called, called Stop Waiting for Pius the 13th. How Papal Change actually happens. Radical reversals are unlikely. Best case, Leo ignores tc. I think this is absolutely true. Absolutely. I agree completely that the most. Like, I'd say it's the best case. Best case. I do think he.
• 36:20
  He does something that doesn't that actually rescinds traditional custodes without actually saying he's rescinding it? I think that is the best case, probably, but exactly. Ignoring it is probably the most likely thing. Papal change, things just don't happen radically in the church. And that's a good thing. By the way, traditionalists, we don't want things typically, generally, we don't want popes just making huge overhauls. That was the. One of our criticisms with Francis was he made these huge overhauls.
• 36:47
  So a pope who doesn't want. Who's shy about making huge overhauls is probably a good thing.
• 36:53
  John Paul Roach says it's like how Trump put abortion quote up to the states. I mean, it is a little bit like that. I mean, it is a little bit like that. You know, Trump. Because when DOS came down and Roe v. Wade was overturned, it's not like Trump led some charge to get all the states to ban abortion. In fact, he. He was against a couple of them. I think it was Florida, when Florida wanted to restrict abortion. I think he was against that. But the point is, though, he kind of.
• 37:17
  Trump does not think about abortion. It's just not on his radar. And so he just kind of leaves it to the states to do what they want. I think the same thing is true about Leo and most of most church leaders, most bishops, they don't think about. They just kind of leave it to. To do what it does.
• 37:32
  Patriot Pooh Bear says, I have no idea how this would work, but I'll take a wild guess that if the Pope embraced bitcoin, the telome would eventually be freed. Sounds ridiculous, but y' all know I'm right. Amen. Patriot Pooh Bear, I'm with you completely. If the Pope embraced bitcoin, the telom would eventually be freed. Yes, because it's freedom money and it would give freedom to tlm. Patriot Pooh Bear also says, let the record show I wrote the bitcoin comment before you brought it up. Hey, how about that? Okay, good to know. Yes, he brought very great minds think alike. And also we think alike.
• 38:04
  Ddd as says, traditions are such a minority. Notice orvites, of course, do not think of the tlm. Yes, we are a minority. And I will say this doesn't go against anything I've said in the past or others said in the past about how the TLM is growing. And, you know, hey, it was growing for a long time. I feel like it's plateaued some. By the way, I don't know if I've ever expressed this, but I feel like from about 2020 through about 2023, 2024, I feel like the TLM really grew a lot. I know it did in my parish, but I talked to a lot of people where it did.
• 38:34
  I feel like the past couple years though, it has plateaued some. Honestly, I think in some ways Francis attacking the TLM drove people to it, which I know is kind of crazy. You know, may it's the Streisand effect or something like that. And Leo kind of being more hands off on it, I think is let some of the energy in the TRAD movement has kind of been. Has been lost a little bit towards more people coming on.
• 38:57
  But the reality is. So yes, I do think the TLM has grown astronomically, exponentially over the past 15 years. But when you're starting at such a small number as opposed to a huge number. So you had this tiny number of people who attended the church like mass in, let's say 2005 versus the total number of Catholics in the world.
• 39:16
  That tiny number has grown significantly, but it's still a tiny number in comparison to the worldwide church. So I think that's something to keep in mind.
• 39:27
  Utubia says Novus sort of people are offended because criticism threatens their confidence in the church. Like Maga hates criticism because it threatens their hope of some for something better. Yeah, I mean, I guess I do get that people are going to be offended by criticism when it go criticizes something they've invested their whole lives in, you know, maybe and made such a big deal out of. But I mean, the fact is the Catholic Church does not rest upon the Novus Ordo being perfect or anything like that. There's been many rights to the Church over the centuries. There's many rights today. And it's always, it's always been acknowledged that rights can be deformed. They can be not as good as other rights. I mean, if you think about it, the reason the novice world came in effect is because they wanted to create a right superior. Superior to the traditional Latin right to the traditional Latin Mass. So there was an acknowledgment that rights are superior. Some rights are superior to others. Now, I would argue what they actually created was inferior in almost every way to the tlm.
• 40:22
  But the, but the logic of let's try create something superior, okay, I mean, the way they went about it was wrong and all that. But my point is, is that it's. It's okay to think one right is superior to another.
• 40:37
  It doesn't mean you're Saying it's invalid or anything like that. It's just simply saying that in its ability to bring about the subjective response to the objective graces that you receive, some rights do it better than others.
• 40:51
  And obviously the traditional Mass does it way better than Novus Ordo Mass does. So. Okay, I'm going to wrap it up there again. Let's pray for Pope Leo, pray for a Holy Father that he would. I, I would pray that he rescind traditional custodians because that's what we want. I mean, that's step one. Obviously we want a lot more than that, but step one just to. It's. It's an unjust document, it's an unjust law, it's an injustice in the church. And injustices should be overturned, they should be rescinded. And so I would, I would pray and beg the Holy Father to rescind tradition as custodes. But the very least, let's pray that the persecution of traditional Catholics ends. We stop Bishop, excuse me, Bishops, stop shutting down TLMs and it's allowed to flourish.
• 41:35
  If it's, I mean, I, I think the Pope Benedict method was right, basically. Allow it to, allow it to grow, allow it to people to celebrate it and attend it. And if nobody wants it, if nobody likes it. Okay, fine. I'm not saying you, you, you let the free market run the church, but in this case, I do think in a little way that you do, because I'm so confident. I know for a fact, I know with moral certainty, I know which one wins if you, if you said, okay, the traditional Mass and no sort of both are given equal, equal attention and, and permission and, and promotion, everything like that in the Catholic Church. I think everybody knows which one quote, unquote, wins the TLM hands down. Not even a competition because the TLM has grown incredibly with a bunch of persecution again against it. So.
• 42:28
  Okay, I'm going to wrap it up there. I just keep going on and on about this, but thank you, everybody. Join the live chat. Like I said, pray for Pope Leo. Pray for our church leaders. Pray for the preservation and the extension, expansion of the traditional at Mass.
• 42:40
  God love you. Until next time. Boy, I messed it up again. For some reason, I can't say this until next time. God love you. And remember the poor.