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Q&A #3: DNA Testing, Overlooked Leads & Other Listener Questions · Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast

• Paul: Welcome to this QA episode of Crooked Tree, a West Memphis 3 podcast. Hey everybody, welcome back. My name is Paul Day, West Memphis 3 researcher, physical scientist, and victim advocate, and I'm here with Kristen Rich, criminologist, victim advocate, and longtime researcher herself. How are you doing, Kristen, for this QA episode? I am doing very well. I'm always excited to do these QA's because it's it's interesting. It's a little bit more laid back, and we get to discuss whatever is on the minds of everybody that's listening. Yeah, we go onto our Facebook group and we ask them. To post questions about the case and the number of questions we got was huge. So we're not gonna be able to cover them all, despite the fact that we would love to cover them all, but the episode would be three hours long if we did. So we're gonna prioritize those ones that I think that are most relevant to what might be on everybody's mind more generally. And I think that this is gonna be a fruitful discussion either way. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that if we don't cover your question that we won't at some point in the future, we just may not get to it on this episode. Yeah. And the podcast, you know, the actual episodes themselves will eventually cover all these questions. You just might have to wait for us to get to that point. And in fact, one of the questions we're bringing up today will bring up that very issue. So I'm looking forward to it. Let's jump in. Let's get started. All right. Question number one comes from Char. Her question is what kind of pressure is being put on the West Memphis Police Department to reopen the case, or are they keeping it closed because of the Alford plea? I don't perceive that there's any pressure on the West Memphis PD to open the case. It's not their case at this point, right? It's being completely controlled by the prosecutor's office at this point and the courts. Yeah, the West Memphis Police Department doesn't get to decide to reopen the case. That's not their decision to make. But I would like to add a few words to that. If you have followed this case long enough, certainly in the past ten years, there has been pressure put on the West Memphis Police Department and the prosecuting attorney's office, no matter who is in office. And what we know from the pressure that was applied to the especially the office of the prosecuting attorney, that did not work. In fact, it backfired spectacularly. So as you all know, there is ongoing DNA testing. It was approved about a year ago on August first. And that is ongoing. And the reason that that is moving forward is because the prosecuting attorney, Sonia Haygood, wants to test the evidence. She wants to know the answers just like we do. And so that is something that she chose to do without a fight. So she came to an agreement with the defense attorneys for all three involved for Jason, Jesse, and Damien. They came up with an agreement to move forward with this testing and that is what is happening right now. That wasn't because pressure was applied to the prosecutor's office. That happened behind closed doors with people who were respectful and reasonable with one another and it had nothing to do with pressure being put on the office. That was a decision made by Sonia Haggood and her staff who want to see justice served. Yeah, they pursued it because it was the right thing to do. And I preach patience on this. Be patient with it. If you see somebody saying, Hey, the evidence is going to be tested by this date or we're gonna have results by this time or it means this, this, this or this, hey, just take that with a grain of salt. I could tell you that as victim advocates We were told back in twenty twenty five that it could be all the way until twenty twenty seven till this thing is all tested out. So I know that there were recent reports in the media that July twenty twenty six was when they should have come out. We did not receive that report. And you would think that we of all people would have heard that and we didn't. So, you know, if it happened in July, that would have been great. But, you know, we were told twenty twenty seven and we weren't even told which month, early twenty twenty seven, December twenty twenty seven. We don't know. So we are just Preaching patience to those that are listening to the podcast. And this is one of the reasons why we don't talk about the DNA stuff or we don't answer a whole lot of questions about the DNA stuff because one, we don't have the answers, and two, it's in the lab and we won't know anything until the science is done. And science takes time and money. So we're just waiting on that. The other part of that question is reopening or is the case closed? The case is closed currently. There may be results from the DNA testing that could cause the investigation to be reopened. But we don't know when or if that will happen. So yes, right now the case is closed. That doesn't mean that the prosecutor's office isn't exploring options and of course they're also waiting to find out the DNA results that are ongoing. Yeah, those results need to persuade the appropriate people, the prosecutor's office and the courts to make a decision on moving forward with changing the current arrangement or keeping it in place. But that's something that is Up to them. That's not something that we can do on our end. All right, next question. This question comes from Tim. If the killer was trying to exit the crime scene via the East Bank, would there be any benefit you can think of to do so? From what I can see, the field beyond is completely open and exposed. If you did want to make your way south, there isn't an obvious point to cross the bayou, such as the Pike Bridge. So I agree with Tim. There isn't any advantage to going to the east out into that field. If you had committed this horrible triple homicide and you're out in the middle of that field, You're gonna get seen. Your foot tracks will be seen. In fact, the West Memphis PD looked for foot tracks on that eastern field and didn't find any. So it's absolutely the way that you wouldn't go. So even if you were coming from that direction, you would have found a way along the bayou or back across the pipe or gone back through the community or maybe back over by Seventh Street, which is to the west there. You would have had to find a way through there through all the trucker traffic and stuff like this. And I just don't see anybody going through that field to avoid all that other stuff. So it's, you know, I agree with Tib. It doesn't make sense that somebody would try to go through that field. And there was no footprints discovered out there to validate that. The next question comes from John. How is this case perceived by the law enforcement community in general? Do they blame incompetence or inexperience? Is this used for training in any capacity? And then Kenneth added to his question, so I'm just going to go ahead and read that as well. Kenneth said, I've been wondering about something similar like this. How does the law enforcement in West Memphis and the surrounding area view the effort of the detectives in present day? Do they recognize the flawed investigation or are they still defending the investigation and believe the right people were convicted? This is a loaded question. It's a loaded question and it's a sophisticated question because before we answer it, and I think I'm gonna let Kristen probably do most of the heavy lifting on this one, but The perception by the public is that the West Memphis P D is monolithic, right? There's one central brain that controls the thinking of everybody. And it just isn't that way. It wasn't that way back in nineteen ninety three. It's not that way today. And it's certainly not the way the system works. Yeah. And I would say we've been to West Memphis P D, even speaking with an officer there who was actually somewhat familiar with the case, he thought that the three who were convicted were guilty. But this was thirty three years ago. There are police officers who are there who've heard of it, of course, because they live in West Memphis, but they don't know anything about the case. So I don't know that they even have an opinion on whether they were wrongfully convicted. I I don't know. The residents in West Memphis also have varying opinions. I will say that the people that Paul and I have talked to who are residents now or who were residents during the time of the crime, they correct me if I'm wrong, Paul, but every single one of them thinks it was a wrongful conviction. that we've talked to. Yeah, they're either very highly doubtful of the conviction or they think it's a wrongful conviction. And most of them, in fact, I rarely ever see anybody say, we think that the West Memphis PD did a great job. Overwhelmingly, they say that the in fact I was messaging with somebody today on Facebook who lived in the neighborhood that day, and she said that the West Memphis PD completely botched this thing. And she said they were botching it in real time in front of the whole public. So they had a really bad PR at the time and it hasn't really annealed since. That said, this case is used in both police departments as well as in colleges, law schools, as a learning tool, mostly unfortunately, of what not to do. So they cover topics like witness intimidation, ⁓ coerced interrogations, false confessions, confirmation bias, even post conviction relief. tunnel vision, things like that, handling of evidence. There's all kinds of aspects of this case you can look at. Some of them were not done well. And so they have become examples in these places. I don't I didn't compile a list of the specific places that use this case as a teaching tool, but there are several universities that use this case to teach. And there are police departments who use this case as well for training purposes. And we know just last year University of Arkansas had a roundtable discussion about this case. My understanding is it's used as a cautionary tale for a lot of police departments in the area. Whether you think these guys that they convicted are guilty or innocent, there's no doubt about it. The West Memphis PD carried this in about the most horrible fashion that they possibly could have. The PR was terrible. Yeah, and there are some police officers, detectives who were involved in the case back in nineteen ninety three who have been asked in the years since about the investigation, the integrity of the convictions, that sort of thing. And they do overwhelmingly say that they got the right guys. And I don't know if that's their personal opinion or if they just are saying that because they need to support the work that was done. I don't know the answer to that. But in public they do say that they performed a thorough investigation and that they convicted the correct people. Next question comes from Carly. I know that y'all have gone over the timeline for the boys and the families of the boys that night over several episodes, but would we be able to get a consolidated timeline taking everyone's statements into account and cross referencing it with police reports? Maybe not as its own episode, but in document format. Yeah, I'm not gonna say that we're gonna post our timeline. We have a massive timeline for this case that someday we will publish for all of you. But we might be able to add to the timeline that we've already posted and get that out there to you. I'm not going make any promises, but we'll try ⁓ to get you a little bit more up to speed with all the ⁓ the documentation that we have for the timeline. Yeah, we're still building up that timeline in the episode build as we're going through this. In fact, we're gonna be adding some new timeline points. Certainly in the next episode, if not over the next four or five episodes, a large number of data points. So if you're somebody at home doing armchair sleuth thing, you're gonna have a good time putting those things in to your records. All right. Next question comes from Justin. A quick question which I have pondered lately in relation to Pam Hobbs work schedule. Did she work at Catfish Island every Wednesday night a couple of times a week? Was it a casual job where Pam would get a call prior and work that evening off the bat? So a couple of things about this. One, you're asking a relatively sophisticated questi we're getting a lot of sophisticated questions. Pam would know. So while I might need to reach out to her or her family to be able to get an answer. So I might not be able to get this in time for this Q and A, but we could work on it and see what she says. ⁓ but she did take this job pretty seriously. She was promoted to manager. In fact, the night this happened on May the fifth, which was her last day at work, was also her first day as manager. So she was manager in training that night from five o'clock until nine o'clock. And she, of course, didn't return to work after this. This was her last night. But we probably should reach out to Pam to see if we can get an answer for that question. In order to answer that question, we have reached out to Stacy, who is Pam's niece and Stevie's cousin, and she is here with us and she's gonna answer that question for us. Hey Stacy. Hey, so I'm Stacy and I'm Pam's oldest niece and I was Stevie's best friend. We were the first two ⁓ grandkids of my grandma and grandad Jackie and Marie. And ⁓ I'm here to answer the question for Aunt Pam as I have taken over advocacy recently. So I called and I spoke with Aunt Cam and she said that it was a common occurrence for her to work on Wednesdays 'cause the owner of the restaurant he went to church on Wednesdays. So it was known for her to be there. So she worked pretty much every Wednesday night? Yes. Okay. Our next set of questions comes from Carly. She has three questions, so we're gonna answer them one at a time. Her first question is why did the West Memphis Police Department not consider animal predation as a source for any of the boys' injuries at the time? If you're referring to specifically the police department, that's not really their area of expertise. But I will say that they did not note any wildlife when they were at the scene or when they drained the creek. And so I think that probably played into them. Not really considering that animals were a part of the injuries to the boys. But Dr. Pretti did consider that. Yeah, my understanding is that Dr. Predi raised turtles and he came to the conclusion that he felt that these were not turtle bites or animal predation of any sort, that this was some type of mutilation caused by the ⁓ homicide. Her next question is when the arrests occurred, did they have the autopsy results back? They had just barely gotten the autopsy results, maybe Five days prior? That might be actually on the long end, probably three days. So they didn't have it for long. The arrests were not made based on autopsy results. No, not at all. All right. And her last question is also, was the pond between the blue beacon and the woods ever searched? Only the perimeter. My understanding is the inside of it was never searched. It was an industrial pond. I believe it was used for evaporating off wastewater. And I don't think that they ever searched it. If they did, it would have shown up in some type of drainage down at the bottom of it. But my understanding is there was no interest in doing that. We know Mark Byers. He he actually parked the ⁓ Silver Asuzu right there that night. He walked past that pond on his way out to the area back behind the blue beacon, but that's the limit of what we have is people walking around it, probably not looking in it. All right, our next question is from Michael. I have seen claims on both ends of the case number theories. Gary Gitchell says an auto theft happened which was case number nine three dash zero five dash zero six six five just before the crime scene discovery, resulting in the triple murder being labeled case nine three dash zero five dash zero six six six for the chronology and the date. In reading literature regarding the case, Devil's Knot states that a report submitted by Brian Ridge indicates that the case was not originally labeled six six six. He's quoting Devil's Knot and says Years later, discovery of a report written by Detective Ridge and dated two days after the bodies were found would cast doubt on Gitchell's contention. The report, which was among the earliest in the case, identified it as nine three dash zero five dash zero five five five. End of quote. Can anyone verify this claim or is this just a procedural error on Detective Ridge's behalf? It's a timely question. Yeah, we're actually going to be coming across that in an episode here very soon. So make sure you're are subscribed and ready to listen to that answer. But the short answer is the case number is 93-05-0666. And it was assigned that on May the sixth. There's actually very good documentation for that. There's a couple of pretty reasonable explanations for why the five five five might show up on a document, which isn't amongst the earliest in the case, by the way. There's large number of documents that predate that that all have six six six on it. But something will arise with the five five five that might catch your eye and go, ⁓ that might actually make some sense as to why that happened. Right, so stay tuned because we are going to cover that soon, in depth. ⁓ our next question comes from Kenneth. Apologies if I'm a little late here. Has there been any attempts by private investigators to do some additional investigations into any one of the persons of interest mentioned by now in modern times? Such as cotton, tattooed man, beasley, etc. Pretty shocking how many creeps were around the neighborhood when the boys disappeared. I'm sure many more will appear in future episodes too. Yeah, we will definitely be covering some faces that are gonna make your hair stand up that lived right there in that neighborhood and were in the area in the vicinity at the time that you r will realize quickly could have done this. In terms of private investigation, there's really only one of the three defense teams that has a private investigator from the very beginning. Ron Lax was the original private investigator. He unfortunately passed away of cancer a little over ten years ago. I think it was about Fourteen years ago. Their current private investigator is still active, as far as I can tell. Last time it was in the evidence room, there was information that suggested that they were pursuing certain people. But in terms of the names that you have here, the Cotton, Tattooed Man, and Beasley, they are not amongst the people that are being looked at. No, and their current investigator actually worked with Ron Lax, so she's familiar with all of his work and continues to do his work even still today. As far as I know, no one has really looked into them. in depth at all. I mean, ⁓ probably us. We're probably we've probably looked into them more than anybody else since the time of the crime. And also if they are looking into anybody, they're going to keep those cards to the chest. You know, for a very long time, the 2011 DNA results weren't available to the public. The Byers family had made a public plea to get them and wanted them. And so we want to acknowledge that another podcast, the prosecutor's podcast, made a request for that data and We celebrate that success in them getting that data. But in it, it showed their theory. We could actually see what Damien's defense team was looking at, who they thought might be people that they were interested in for this crime. And I'm not saying that they did it intentionally, that they withheld that information. But then again, if I was them, I wouldn't want these people to know that I was looking into them either. But now it's out and anybody who has the two thousand eleven results could read through them and see the names. And thank you to the prosecutors podcast for sharing those with all of us. Yeah, it was a big win. Yeah, for sure for everybody. All right, our next question comes from Melissa. I am enjoying this podcast. I've listened to virtually every podcast and interview on the case out there and it's rare to hear anything new. I was just wondering about Tim Cotton from a few episodes back. Will you dig in a little deeper on him? I've been following this case for years and I've never heard the name come up and can't for the life of me figure out why. Was there a recent release of the case file, or is this newly discovered or uncovered information? I also have similar questions about the double murder five years prior in nineteen eighty eight, which was bone chilling to hear, seriously. Frustrating to see how the detectives let these things slip by, but I also have serious questions about Ridge and Steve Jones in particular. She's got a lot going on in that question, right? She does. Let's answer there was not a recent release of the case file, and this is not newly discovered evidence. This has been in the case file since the beginning. It's just that most people who are covering the case don't talk about these other suspects or who the police department was looking at right after the crimes. And we feel like it's important that everyone know Who was being looked at and who was living in this neighborhood and what types of people were around that could have been responsible for this crime. And that's why we're telling you about it. But this is not new information. You're just hearing it for the first time. Yeah, these are guys that just kind of fall through the crack of the narrative. People have a choice between putting their time into studying Tim Cotton and studying Damian Eccles. And of the two people in the case, one is very relevant and the other one is almost treated like an asterisk. It's an afterthought, that kind of thing. When we were going through the case files, we discovered that there was story after story after story that we felt were interesting, that were compelling to look at, and we felt that people wanted to hear. And we realized that the total investigation of this far exceeded what most people think happened. So that was what we wanted to do in the podcast was to expose listeners to this wide range of theories and rabbit holes and discussions that they have. And we are just getting started. There are so many of them. And some of them Later on we'll intersect. So you might think that this one here is going in a direction and we'll never come back to it again. But every once in a while we'll go down a branch, you'll this is going nowhere, and then all of sudden you find that somebody else is on that same branch and it's now taking you into a very interesting direction. So we just want to throw that out there as we're going through this case. But we feel your frustration. We feel the same way when we look at certain suspects and you think, ⁓ my goodness, this person was in the right location and at the right time and has this background and could have possibly been responsible for this and they just kind of fall off the radar of the police department. So we completely feel your frustration. We've done as much digging as we can do as we go. But yeah, it's hard when the case files seem incomplete to us. Yeah, it's frustrating. Yeah, and to that point, the nineteen eighty eight double murder, you know, West Memphis would probably see that as one of the most famous cases of a double homicide of children, except for the fact the West Memphis three case arose in nineteen ninety three, which supplanted that. So we have in five years, five dead children in a city that's relatively small, about a little over twenty thousand people. I mean, this is a serious problem. It's kind of alarming that a lot of people are not aware of the history behind this case, you know, that goes back into the psyche of the people that live there. They jumped to the idea of Satanism and cults because they'd been jumping to Satanism and cults for at least five years. And there's actually very good evidence they'd been doing this since the sixties, and we'll leave it at that for now because we'll pick up on another case about Again, will make your hair stand out. All right. The next question comes from Tim. Were any of their teachers or other school employees looked at? Yeah, there was I want to call him a janitor, but he certainly worked as a groundskeeper, janitor type, you know, does stuff maintenance, yeah, maintenance guy there at Weaver. His last name is Hester. He was working there from nineteen ninety two until about April of nineteen ninety three and he was questioned about the homicides. All right. The next question comes from Teresa. Does Terry have an alibi for when he left Pam at home when she went to the Jacobies? Did anyone ever release Bobby Jacoby's statement? So Terry's alibi is Pam up until he leaves. That's sometime just after ten o'clock, about ten ten, if we just kind of give it a time. So he disappears at that point. We know that Pam is with David shortly after that, and then later on at ten forty one, she's screaming in the street after David and Terry have already left her there. So Terry doesn't have an alibi for that half hour. My understanding is nobody has seen Terry between ten ten and ten forty. Then they hook up, David Jacoby is with Terry, and they do run into a couple of parents a little bit later after that. And as for Bobby Jacoby's statement, she was interviewed by the defense in this case, and her statement has never been made public, no. Well, by Damien's defense team specifically, right? Yes. Okay, so the questions we've answered so far are generally connected to episode questions or questions that are related to the timeline that we put out so far. After this point, we're gonna answer some questions that might be spoilers. So if you're interested in learning the case right alongside everybody else, the episodes, now's the time to go ahead and log out and wait for the next episode to start giving you information. Otherwise we're gonna be talking about stuff that is going to be covered in future episodes and hopefully won't spoil your experience. The next question is from Miranda. Hello and thank you for making this podcast. Do we know the name, location of the laundromat that Damien, Domini, and the Hollingsworths all visited? So it's a common perception that these are people all going to the exact same laundromat. And that's a mistake that is made in books and articles, newspapers, everything, whenever they cover this case. The reality is is they went to different laundromats. So the Hollingsworths went to the laundromat located over in the eastern part of the city. on Ingram at the intersection of Ingram and Barton, that's where the Hollingsworth were going and that's where LG would have been as well. The laundromat where Damien and Domini went to go make their phone calls so that Damien could get a ride home was at the intersection of Worthington and Missouri, over in kind of the central part of town. So they are quite a ways away from each other. They are not the same laundromat. The next question comes from Jamie. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the individual known as Lucifer or Lucy. Did this person exist in your opinions? I would say we're going to cover Vicky Hutchison extensively and we'll go over that then. Yeah, Vicky and several people bring up this character named Lucy or Lucifer. And I think we'll make clearer our viewpoint on that when that time comes. We don't really want to spoil this for anybody because I think it's going to be interesting. All right, the next question is from Hope. Might be quite late. But why was the evidence against Terry Hobbs and David Jacoby moved on from so quickly? Why was the DNA testing not pushed when they found his hair on the lace that was used on Michael? So we need to be very careful in how we say this because we know that there is a margin of error on the both of those hairs, right? The hair that matches Terry Hobbs also matches one point five percent of the Caucasian population based upon the biostatistics that were being used in two thousand and seven. In other words, Terry Hobbs cannot be excluded. He cannot be excluded, but neither can one point five percent of the Caucasian population. The same thing is true with David Jacoby, but in that case it was seven percent, right? And there's some issues with how that testing was going on. So the question is why was the DNA testing not pushed? And the answer is we don't really know that that's Terry's hair or David's hair. That has never been established that it is their hair. There's a high likelihood that it is their hair. But you cannot go out and say specifically it is their hair to the exclusion of all other people. So you have to be very careful when you say stuff like that. With that said, this shows that there's a difference between what the defense teams were seeking to do at the time, which was to exonerate their clients to show that they did not commit this crime, which does not necessarily mean you have to identify the person that did it. All you have to show is is that the DNA doesn't match your person, right? And so the mitochondrial DNA was sufficient for that purpose. Whereas nuclear DNA may or may not have been sufficient and they might not have been able to get a good hit on it back in two thousand and seven. The technology is much better today than it was then. So remember, Damien Eccles is the group that is really pushing this DNA stuff in two thousand and seven on this specific angle. And so their goal is to just show that Damien wasn't the guy. And I think that once they demonstrated that, they kind of felt confident with that result going forward. As far as not pushing forward against Terry or David, explanation was put forth that all three of the boys had been in Terry Hobbs home and that there may have been some transfer, secondary transfer. There was a reason ⁓ why his hair would have shown up since there was not a definitive match without other evidence to corroborate anything, they didn't really have a choice. This wasn't enough to exonerate the three who were convicted right then or even get them out of prison at that point. So this evidence was not seen as strong evidence at the time. Of course the current testing round right now, hopefully we'll be able to cement some of those hairs to persons. And that might change the views of people, but who knows, right? They might get nothing. Yeah. So it'll be interesting. For sure. All right. And the last question we're going to cover comes from Donovan. Donovan asks, why did no one on any of the defense teams raise the issue that Terry Hobbes was not investigated? Through discovery, wouldn't they be able to see that he had never sat down for an interview? Has Dan Stidham or anyone else ever talked about this? There were people on the defense teams who did raise the issue of Terry Hobbs not being interviewed or questioned at the time of the murders. That was a big hole in the case. Anyone who's interested in true crime knows that. During an investigation, they start with your inner circle and work their way out. And so all of the parents and the siblings, as age appropriately, should have been questioned, interviewed, just to understand what they knew, just to understand how these kids played, what they thought, what their interests were, you know, where they were seen, where they liked to go in the neighborhood. There were all kinds of questions that went unanswered because family members were not properly interviewed at the time of the crime. If you know the case, you know that ⁓ Terry was eventually interviewed extensively because of a lawsuit, and that happened years and years later. So at the time of the crime, there was no interview of him. There wasn't an extensive interview of Todd Moore either. The only father figure who was interviewed was John Mark Byers. I'm not saying they didn't talk to Terry and they didn't talk to Todd, but there's no documentation of interviews really with them. There was no extensive questioning like there was with Mark Byers. Or any of the mothers for that matter. Aaron Yeah. Any of the conversations they had with the moms were very cursory. It's very clear that the West Memphis PD did not see the parents as the guilty party right from the very start. Once there were questions about the integrity of the convictions of Damien. Jason and Jesse, and the defense team started looking at other possible suspects. Of course, Terry Hobbs came up, especially after his DNA was found at the crime scene. Specifically, Dan or anyone else, I don't know that any of them had a particular focus on Terry. It was just a missed opportunity by the West Memphis Police Department to have gotten more up information from him at the time of the crime. And For what it's worth, after the convictions happened and Paradise Lost came out and all the supporter movements started up, they didn't look at Terry Hobbs until two thousand seven either. So he's one of these guys that fell through the cracks, like Tim Cotton. Yeah, he was not on the radar. Not at all. All right. So I think that's all we're gonna be able to handle today. If we missed your question or we had to skip over your question, we apologize for that, but we'll get to it. We will get to it either through the conversations that are occurring in the episodes or in another QA in the future. Thank you everybody for all of your questions. They are interesting as always. And we will continue to do these question and answer episodes. And hopefully you guys enjoy them as much as we do. And so get your questions ready for the next one. Be thinking of what you want to ask as we go through the next several episodes and you can post your question in our Facebook group. If you do not belong to our Facebook group, please come join us. ⁓ we'd love to have you there. There's lots of great discussion in there, and you can ask us a question if you like. Mm-hmm.