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Transcript

Phase Out to Justice · The GroundWork Podcast

• 0:16
  SPEAKER_05: The call for renewable energy runs through every climate conversation now.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_05: Disruption to global energy supplies, including the uncertainty around the Strait of Hormos, has magnified.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_05: When COP31 president addressed the bone talks this year, he pointed to the strait and argued that wind and sun cannot be sanctioned or blocked.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_05: Renewables are being framed as climate action and as a route to national autonomy at the same time.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_05: Almost everything the transition runs on requires minerals.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_05: Cobalt, copper, lithium, nickel, collectively, transition minerals.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_05: So we have two narratives running side by side: renewable energy for climate action and renewable energy for energy security.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: Both are mineral intensive.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: Together, they deepen structure rather than ease it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_05: COP30 produced the strongest language on indigenous peoples' rights the climate process has ever adopted.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_05: But what was left out matters as much as what went in.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_05: Reference to transition minerals and to the impacts of extraction were taken out of the final text.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_05: The climate process now affirms the rights of the peoples whose lands hold these minerals, while saying almost nothing about extraction reaching those same lands.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_05: The gap is where the cost falls.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: Without action, indigenous people will continue to carry the weight of the energy transition.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_05: My name is Paula Alvarado, and this is the Groundwork Podcast.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_05: This episode was built on the groundwork webinar from june 16, 2026, where we heard from four people working at the forefront of the just transition.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_05: Joan Carlin, Kankaya 8 Igorot leader from the Philippines and Executive Director of Indigenous People's Right International opens at the international level what was warned at COP thirty and what happens to those commitments once you step outside the negotiating hole.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_05: IPRI is a global indigenous organization working to protect indigenous peoples' rights and to confront the criminalization and violence that they face.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_05: Brian Bixgull, Maya Tutuil from Guatemala and global coordinator of the Syrian coalition, joins us from home where the mechanism agreed COP thirty is being turned into something operational.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_05: The securing indigenous peoples' rights in the Green Economy Coalition is a coalition of indigenous-led and allied organizations championing a just transition to a low carbon economy with ethic and self-determination at the center of its work.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_05: Emmanuel Umpula Nukumba, founder and executive director of AfreWatch, takes us into the copper belt of the Democratic Republic of Congo, where he has worked on mining governance and community rights for more than twenty years.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_05: And Carlos Mamani Condori, Aymara historian from Bolivia, founder of CITAC and researcher at the Universidad Mayor de San Andres, takes us somewhere unexpected into the colonial archives to the land titles issued by the Spanish Crown and what are still offering communities defending their territories in the Lithium Triangle today.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_05: This episode is a collective initiative by Cit for Change, Tinta, and the International Climate Politics Hub, with support from the Climate and Land Youth and the Pacar Foundation.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_05: Groundwork works alongside indigenous peoples, Afro-descendant people, and local communities to strengthen engagement and political influence across international policy and governance spaces, shaping territories, rights and collective futures.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_05: The geography here is very specific.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_05: Research published in Nature Sustainability in 2022 map more than five thousand energy transition mineral projects worldwide.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_05: Around fifty-four percent sit on or near the lands of indigenous peoples.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_05: So the question of who decides how these minerals come out of the ground and on what terms lands directly on indigenous territories and on those of Afro descendant people and local communities.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_05: The consequences are already visible.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_05: Conflicts in the DRC, Myanmar, and Colombia are tied to the mining of cobalt, nickel, copper, and rare earth.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_05: Sixty-two per cent of current mining sits in areas of high water risk, including the lithium triangle across Chile, Bolivia, and Argentina.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_05: In Africa, 71% is in food insecure regions.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_05: Millions stand to lose their livelihood and their homes.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: Emmanuel and Joanne begin with what that looks like from the ground.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So my name is Emanuel Umpula.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: I work for both AfriWatch DRC and AfriWatch International.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And coming back to the question of copper belt, let's say Congo owned a lot of critical minerals, uh copper, cobalt, lithium, uh, zinc.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And today I can say the production is very high.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Congo is producing um uh around three million uh uh yeah, more than three million tons of copper, uh more than two hundred and fifty thousand tons of cobalt, and is this two thousand and twenty-six Congo will produce uh more than two thousand um two hundred and uh four thousand copper tons of uh zinc, and uh soon Congo will produce lithium in Manono provin province, and Congo has a big deposit of lithium.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if as soon as Congo will start producing lithium, it will be one of the world's uh biggest producers uh producers of uh lithium.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's coming soon.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: When the mining uh was open to private companies, I think Congo didn't think about the adding value at the local level.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what is happening uh is like let's say question of consultation.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is a huge problem, and and you know, when we talk about this, uh the FPIC most of the time uh is not applied.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the reason is because people who are living around uh com uh mining, uh they are not considering them like indigenous people, they consider them like uh local communities.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a huge gap.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because this they said no, they are you can't uh include all of them like indigenous people.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we consider the not me, but uh um Ministry of Mine and companies that the way they consider those uh communities.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: The place where, for instance, the case of Manono, where there is uh endangered to people, they are not applying uh this uh FPIC.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we've trying to push for the implementation of it, but you know, uh when politicians, because this um licensing process is not transparent, it's not clear.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So uh those people they are not participating, including even us as NGOs.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: We don't we we can see just is the rights is already or the license is already granted to the company without any clear process or without any clear participation or consultation.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another that's uh first first problems.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: The second problems is uh pollution, water pollution, air pollution, and soil pollution.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you can go to on our website, you can see how pollution is a main uh problems for around uh those mining and this uh prevent uh communities to is destroying this pollution, the land.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: You see, so people will not grow food so because of these pollutions, and if you go around those mining uh areas, you will find that people are starving, they are starving because they can't grow food.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, uh as as as you know, uh nickel, which is uh a critical mineral, is uh found in uh Indonesia and the Philippines.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: The number one source is Indonesia and second, the Philippines.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: And if we look at what's happening on the ground, uh, like for example, in North Maluku, where the Ohanga Manyawa indigenous peoples face severe threats from nickel mining.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: And uh Indonesia's nickel industry is central to the global electric vehicle supply chain, as we know, it's needed for the e-batteries.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_04: But this green mineral economy is destroying forests and rivers in indigenous territories.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: For example, in Hal Mahera alone, there are at least 29 mining permits covering more than 186,000 hectares of which overlap with indigenous territories.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, forest destruction and river pollution have reduced the living space of the umyawa, including those living in voluntary isolation.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_04: Remember, in the agreement, uh people with involuntary isolation should be protected, but that that is not the case in Indonesia.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and they are being displaced.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: So the the worst thing is that criminalization has also followed community resistance.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: So six leaders uh were prosecuted after defending their lands for um ancestral forests against mining expansion.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_04: Four of them were sentenced to life imprisonment, while two others were sentenced to 20 years of imprisonment.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_04: So we can see from this case the intensification of the criminalization of indigenous peoples, which also reflects the broader reality where protecting forests is treated as a crime, even as mining companies operate with state support, as in the in this case of the community in Halmahera.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_04: The nickel boom uh is not uh causing development or not advancing development for the people.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_04: No, in fact, it is threatening their very survival.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: And that is what we really see on the ground.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_05: What Emanuel and Joanne describe from Congo and Indonesia is not exceptional.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_05: The same pattern repeats across the territories where these minerals are found.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_04: In practice, what we've seen is systemic violations, right?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_04: That is still what is prevailing, and that is the one that is uh concerning us very much.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because the that again, like I said, these are being imposed without our free prior and informed consent.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_04: So with this additional tool coming from the uh from CAP 30, we can demand mandatory implementation.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: For example, of the free prior and informed consent, the conduct of human rights due diligence, which is in their policy, in ensuring also the proper conduct of environmental and social impact studies with the participation of indigenous peoples.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: And in these are all in their policy, but it's not being implemented.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: And that is also why we see systemic violations like land grabbing and resource grabbing is still happening in the different parts where transition mineral um mining is taking place.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_04: So what we need now is for states, especially those uh to regulate these companies to make sure that they follow what they have committed.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: And part of that is really to regulate the other actors.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's the in the power of states to regulate companies and investors to abide by their human rights obligation, to respect uh the rights of Indigenous peoples, have clear policies to implement free, prior, and informed consent, and to set up grievance mechanisms that are effective.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because that is, again, part of the problem, the challenge that we are facing now.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: When communities are evicted, they don't have anywhere to go.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: There is no access to justice.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: And where their lands are destroyed or polluted and they lost their livelihoods, there's uh also nowhere to go.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_04: And that is the big issue also in relation to this problem of transition, um mining of transition minerals.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_04: There are no effective accountability mechanisms when our rights are violated by companies and even states who are pursuing this uh uh and disregarding our rights.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: But in any case, that means we need to make communities, especially those in sitting or or in or uh or who have transition minerals in their territories to be aware of their rights and that they need to like the rights, especially over their lands and territories, and that they can develop their protocol on how free, prior, and informed consent should be done in relation to them so that they can engage in with companies and the governments in ensuring the respect for their rights and their well-being.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_05: COP 30, closing November 2025, with the strongest language the climate process has produced on indigenous peoples' rights.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_05: Two passages matter most.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_05: I asked Joanne and Brian to walk us through them.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: I just want to read exactly the language on paragraph 12i, uh and and to read uh and and this has been the result of the collective work of indigenous peoples through the indigenous peoples caucus at uh the UNFCCC.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: So I just want to emphasize that that this has been the result of uh the hard work of uh collective uh hard work of indigenous peoples engaging in the uh UNFCCC.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: So if you if I read it, the it it says the importance of the rights of indigenous peoples and of obtaining their free, prior, and informed consent in accordance with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the importance of ensuring that all just transition pathways respect and promote the internationally recognized collective and individual rights of Indigenous peoples, including the rights to self-determination, and acknowledge the rights and protections for indigenous peoples in voluntary isolation and initial contact in accordance with relevant international human rights instruments and principles.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: This paragraph is a milestone, if I may say.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_04: I think this is the strongest paragraph referring to indigenous peoples in all in all the texts that has come out in the UNFCCC negotiations so far.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and in addition to this, there are also other references to indigenous peoples.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_04: Can you move to uh the issue of the, of course, the general one on human rights, the right to healthy environment, again, indigenous peoples' rights, land rights, traditional knowledge, and intergenerational equity.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_04: These are all part of the COP 30 outcomes.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: That's uh that's very, very important.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so so paragraph 2 of I again is groundbreaking.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's it recognizes our rights, self-determination, free priority, informed consent, uh, in Indigenous peoples, involuntary isolation, initial contact.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's wonderful.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: But paragraph 18, it's a complement and a very important compliment because paragraph 18 um basically collects all of those, uh, all of those um tools, um, all of all of those processes that can guide just transition.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: And we were successful in including this at the COP 30, the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: So my colleague Joan was talking about grievance mechanisms, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: That is a that is a fundamental, it's a it's a basic element, right, of the uh UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why we can come into this space and of course um ask for for implementation, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: But of course, there are parties uh, especially to this day that are still uh um making statements from the floor and asking that these uh important elements not be considered uh as through the implementation of the just transition mechanism, which underpins why we need to be really activated to ensure that 12i and 18 uh because they now establish a very important normative uh way in through which governments and and businesses should conduct their just transition, is implemented and delivers again tangible benefits for indigenous communities on the ground.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_05: Paragraph 12i recognizes indigenous peoples' rights, free, prior, and informed consent and self-determination.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_05: And it acknowledges protections for people in voluntary isolation and initial contact.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_05: Paragraph eighteen does something different.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_05: It names the tools that should guide just transition pathways, the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_05: These are commitments, and on paper they are significant.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: Implementation is another matter entirely.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_05: Brian was in Bonn when we spoke in the middle of the negotiations on how the mechanism will actually work.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: As he said, I'm coming to you from Bonn, uh where we are discussing the implementation or the operationalization of the just transition mechanism.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, of course, the the uh we've been uh developing collectively the Indigenous People's Caucus, uh and and uh the group of uh of on just transition has been developing a set of recommendations for bodies um so that they take into consideration and operationalize 12i and paragraph 18.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: So paragraph 18 is also a very important paragraph because it recognizes uh the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, as well as the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights, as uh tools that can guide just transitions, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so what we are um asking uh as a constituency is that the mechanism um through its functions, because the mechanism will have functions, right?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it will have an institutional arrangement, hopefully.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we are uh what we are what parties are negotiating right now.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: It will have outputs as well and modalities, and so that we are able to include the implementation of 12i and 18 as a cross-cutting element.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: But it's important that not it's not only a cross-cutting element because it leaves it at a print principle level, but that we go into the operative um um uh details also of the mechanism.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, one important uh part for us is policy guidance because the mechanism can support parties in Implementing national just transition strategies within their own countries.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Because we have to say, right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Just transition is going to happen at a national level.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, there are global events that impact transition minerals that impact indigenous peoples' lands, but just transition is going to happen at a national level.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: So how is this implemented at a national level?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Matters, right?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: There are tools within the UNFCCC.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: So the national determined contributions, the national adaptation plans, and other tools where we have to secure implementation of paragraph 12i as part of the just transition strategies that countries are putting forth.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why we are advocating in uh in the negotiations that those uh important functions stay there.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: There is also a need for monitoring and assessment, right?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: There will have to be some monitoring and assessment about how countries are uh incorporating um elements or uh incorporating paragraph 12i and paragraph 18.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Now, at the same time, uh, why do I keep emphasizing that this is at a national level?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because of course, the just transition uh as it is understood within the UNFCCC system, right, um, is nationally determined.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes, we can make recommendations, we can make submissions, we can participate in the negotiations, but at the end of the day, these are voluntary, and countries have to adopt it and incorporate it, they have to have a will to actually do this.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so we have to move forward if we are able and successful to include those elements in the negotiation uh of uh of the mechanism, of the functions of the mechanism, and also uh continue our advocacy at the national level.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: Importantly, also, we are asking for uh for um institutionalized participation of indigenous peoples.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: There one of the main points of uh convergence at this moment is whether there should be a constituted body with a political arm, with a technical arm, or whether there should be only a coordination body or a network, right?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, we want to see a constituted body that secures seats for indigenous peoples within that constituted body so that indigenous peoples can participate and bring those topics to the table.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_05: While negotiators work on turning paragraphs 12i and 18 into national policies, others are turning to a very different kind of tool to secure indigenous peoples' rights to their territories.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_05: Carlos Mamani Condori has spent recent months in colonial archives, tracing land titles issued by the Spanish Crown.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: So my work with land titles has been happening for a long time.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because recently there's been a lot of interest in the lithium triangle.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um the lithium triangle that's located in the Andes Mountains, and it affects the Koya people who live in between Argentina, Chile, and Bolivia.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we also have the department in Macusani, which you know has has a rock lithium instead of the presence of lithium in salt plains.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very interested in this topic of lithium and lithium extraction, um, specifically because no community has been consulted.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Neither the state, neither the companies have received free, prior, and informed consent, and the communities are perceived to be lacking rights and and lacking the capacity to negotiate with the state or companies regarding the benefits that could result from lithium extraction, let alone the the damages that lithium extraction does to the environment.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: So for the last eight months or so I've been going back to the colonial titles, the crown titles.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was surprised to see that both in Argentina as well as in Bolivia, when it comes to exploiting the salt plains, the Spanish crown started giving these lands titles, uh, starting in the year 1591.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so when the Spanish came, they started to you know usurp these territories from indigenous uh indigenous peoples, uninhabited territories which were taken.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: But if there was indigenous peoples, then they offered titles.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the crown perceived this to be uh a little messy, but so they had to reorganize the situation.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: So starting from the year 1591, I believe um this also happened in the Medicas, but also in the Philippines, as they uh differ from the royal territory of New Spain.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we started uh expediting land titling, and what we see um are uh ancestral authorities in Bolivia that carry uh within their uh uh uh textile production the crown's titles.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's quite interesting, especially in Bolivia, the defense of territories um can be based on the land titles that were offered by the Spanish crown.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: So the land titles are very important because it determines the size of indigenous territories, but it also establishes the borders and they also give the title of possession.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, when it comes to uh when it comes to the Spaniards taking rule of the territory, then they uh you know would uproot some plants and they would throw some toads, and and that's what the colonial authorities would do.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the Spanish colonists would abuse the system.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: So once over and over again, starting in 1591, indigenous peoples had to purchase and repurchase their land to remain free.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: And in in the times of the Republic, this you know continued up until today.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: There are colonial titles that are preserved by certain authorities.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: So going back to the colonial land titles in the 19th century, um, the process that the Republic carried out, we had this second wave of colonialization in the whole region.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, the objective for the the goal for this is was the end of indigenous populations, and in order to do so, we they had to remove the land rights.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, normally these land titles are are stolen, they're confiscated, and therefore the indigenous communities don't have a way to defend their access to the land and territory.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um we can see um that documents that show you know this this royal stamp shows the name of the king, and and that shows that they are original when they have the wax royal seal.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, the the authentication with the wax seal is what makes it original and legally binding.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: So some of them have been partially preserved by communities, but most of them have been preserved in the colonial archives.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is it's quite difficult to find these land titles because you know when we go through the catalogs, we may not see you know the the the royal grant for this specific land title for that community.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: We might see them as a purchase, we might see them as a transfer.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's really like looking for a needle in in a haystack, looking for in a big haystack.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it's it this is it's it's this royal stamp that we would have to find in all the archives, um, all the all the archives corresponding to the countries that suffered from Spanish colonialism.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_05: The mechanism and the land titles are two very different routes, and each holds real promise.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_05: Neither is quick.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_05: In the meantime, mining continues on indigenous lands.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_05: So what can be done now?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_05: I put that question to all four speakers.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_04: First and foremost is to support the communities in defending their their territories uh in the way they they need support.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_04: And second is to make the consumer of these products aware that the e-batteries, for example, are produced with the hands, uh with the with the blood of indigenous people.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_04: So there should be an awareness also in raising, addressing the supply chain, right?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_04: That that is leading to systemic violations of indigenous people.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_04: So consumers should be made aware.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_04: We need policy change, we need implementation of the agreement, especially land tenure, free, prior, and informed consent, and demand.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: We need public to demand governments and companies to do this.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_04: That it should be not commitment in words, but in action, in policy, in clear uh implementation and practice.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you can get solution at local level, it's good, national level, it's good.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't you are not satisfied with that, then you can aim to go at the international level.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can choose.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: There is a lot of means you can use at the UN, at um uh OCD, you can use um, but we also you can try to use uh um a national uh uh justice, for instance, for some cases we tried to use uh in the past, but um to to to to end my uh uh my um my word, I I would I would recommend to use national level mechanisms.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: We need to make sure that those principles at international level they are integrated in national level.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so and that will give NGOs more power to request justice for communities living around those mining.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there is not one uh solution that will address all these issues.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's no silver bullet approach.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: We have to use all the tools available in our toolkit, and that includes, of course, unleashing the power of a well-informed consumer, and that of course includes includes as well um uh bringing corporate accountability to the forefront, right?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: Because there has never been any time in history where companies have been uh this vulnerable to uh to um scrutiny from the public, and we have to use it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: We have to use this platform, this momentum that we have to ensure that people understand that if transition minerals are being extracted without FPIC, then that's not justice.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: And indigenous peoples are not indigenous peoples' rights are not ethical considerations, they are not uh uh impacts that can be mitigated, but it has to underpin a central, a central part of the transition is respecting indigenous peoples' rights, and the mechanism has to do that also, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: Bring tangible benefits for communities.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_05: COP30 brought the climate processor closer to something that could be called just.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_05: The gap on transition minerals and instruction still has to be closed, and the window is COP31 in Turkey at the end of this year.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_05: The UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues named that gap directly, calling for free, prior and informed consent in binding national frameworks by 2027.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_05: The mechanism COP30 agreed to develop still has to be given shape.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_05: Who takes part, how it functions, how it handles a risk that comes with transition pathways.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_05: Those questions are open right now.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_05: And as the speaker reminded us, the mechanism will not be a regulatory.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_05: The decisive work is national, in law and in practice where just translation is actually decided.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_05: The through line was the same from all four.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_05: Indigenous peoples' rights are the foundation of any translation that can be credible and call itself just.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_05: That's it for this episode of the Glam War Podcast.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_05: And as always, thank you for listening.