Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 204. HGSE Global Citizen: Alexis Redding: Being the Author of your own Story

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204. HGSE Global Citizen: Alexis Redding: Being the Author of your own Story · Be A Global Citizen!

0:05
Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
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explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
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value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm
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Ahsoka, researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussion,
0:18
stories and insights on this podcast to be valuable and
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inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
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committed to living a contributive life.
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Enjoy. Hi, I'm Alexis Redding.
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I'm a faculty member at the Harvard Graduate School of
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Education, where I teach our courses in college student
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development and student affairs for folks who are in the higher
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education program. Hi Alexis, thank you so much for
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joining me on the podcast. I'm really excited to have you
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and I just really appreciate all you do for Huggsy.
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You quite famous on campus. I remember when we, oh, I say
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that because when I join, when I started my program, we got to
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have a wonderful campus tour with you and you have to show us
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around. And we were also amazed by your
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knowledge of the, the campus and also just knowing a little bit
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more about your own background. Sounds like you have been at
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Harvard for, you know, a little while.
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I would say you're quite, you know, well acquainted with the,
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the, the place. And then also you won a really
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important prestigious award, which I'm sure you probably
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wouldn't say it yourself because you're so modest, but I'll say
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it for you that the, the Morning Star award is.
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Yeah, it's, it's like a very, very important and awesome and
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shows that you really care about the students and you do good
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research. So just all that to say, I'm
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very excited to learn a little bit more about your story, the
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work that you're doing, what really, you know, gets you out
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of bed and gets you excited to to, you know, go to class and to
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do the research. So wanted to pass it back to you
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and ask if you can maybe share some of the the milestones of
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this incredible journey that you're on and that you know,
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kind of where you're looking ahead towards?
2:04
Sure. Well, first, thank you for that
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lovely introduction. It's wonderful to be able to
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welcome our OEL, our online education leadership students
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with an in person campus tour, which I curated specifically for
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folks to have the opportunity to get to know what it is like to
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be in and around Harvard. Our students, as you did, are in
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an online program for two years, but we have a an opportunity to
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spend a week on campus getting to know each other, getting to
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know the place of getting to know the the program.
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I love being part of that. In terms of my journey, you are
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right that I've been around Harvard for a very, very long
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time. I'm a member of the class of
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1998. So I began my Harvard journey in
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the mid 1990s. I then spent 10 years living
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overseas and working in Switzerland before I came back
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to the masters program at Hugsy in 2009.
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And my goal at that point was to spend one year answering the
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questions I had about the work that I was doing, supporting
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students, and then to pivot right back and to go into the
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workforce. And I realized in that process,
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the year that I spent on Appian Way with the incredible faculty
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at HDSE, that there were opportunities to continue to ask
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the questions that really mattered and to do what I do
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today, which is train student affairs practitioners and others
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who work with students and their families to provide the kinds of
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supports that young people need as they're navigating higher
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education. And so I transitioned into the
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doctoral program and after that joined the faculty.
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And so I have now been a member of the faculty for I think going
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on 7 years. So having the opportunity to
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teach students like the folks in OEL, like your cohort, as part
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of cohort too. Thank you so much, Alexis.
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I I was not part of the higher Ed Ed track, which there are two
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tracks, you know, for OEL higher Ed and then pre-K through 12.
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And so I am so sad if there is one regret.
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It was not taking a class with you.
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But you know, it's it's really wonderful to to have this time
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to to connect now. And there's there's a few things
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that already like jump out at me about this, this, you know,
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credible tenure at Harvard that you have.
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But actually, you know, one of the things that I wanted to
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maybe kind of like zoom in a little bit more was this mention
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of you living abroad. You said Switzerland.
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And I don't know if that was, you know, for like, I think you
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said 1010 years or some extended period of time.
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But could you maybe speak a little bit about like, yeah,
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after graduating from from college, what prompted you to go
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to Switzerland of all places? And what was the work that you
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were doing over that span of time?
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Great. Yes, if you mentioned living
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abroad on the Global Citizen podcast, it is natural that we
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would return to that topic. I'll even rewind a little to let
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you know. Before I started college I
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actually lived in France with my family, so I graduated high
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school in Paris, came to the United States for college.
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I'm born in Ann Arbor, MI, so I'm a Michigander AUS citizen by
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birth, but had the opportunity to really experience what it was
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like to live abroad when I was still a teenager.
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After college. I was trying to figure out what
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to do next, like so many young people after they do their time
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as an undergrad. And unfortunately, my father
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fell ill and my family was living in Switzerland at the
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time. So I had started a master's
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program and I dropped out to go back home and to help out.
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He'd been diagnosed with cancer and I, I thought, you know, I
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can always go back to school, but but it was my dad and I'm an
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only child. It turns out though, that going
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home to dote on your father and bring him tea and take good care
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of him is not always as welcome. He adores me but was a very,
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very self-sufficient man and did not need me sort of, you know,
6:00
standing around the corner. Are you OK?
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Do you need anything 24/7? So he gently invited me to not
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spend all my time just caretaking for him, but to be
6:10
doing things that were meaningful beyond the house.
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And so he suggested you should go see if one of the local
6:16
schools you can volunteer at. And I had always at Harvard, I
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had helped to run a tutoring program as an undergrad.
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And so I'd always enjoyed tutoring.
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And I went to one of the local schools to see about helping
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out. And I ran into some parents in
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the parking lot as I was leaving.
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And one of them asked, do you tutor?
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I was like, oh, yeah, actually, I do.
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I've been tutoring for years. And I started, this was in 1999,
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I started going out, I had a purple backpack, you know,
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packed with a couple of books and notebooks and, you know,
6:52
other teaching materials. And I would take the train to
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people's homes. And I did that for about 6
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months until that demand sort of outstripped what I could do
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going on the train back and forth to, to visit other people.
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So I, you know, took over a room in my parents place and then
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eventually built it to a, you know, free standing schoolhouse.
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I had 14 tutors and counselors who worked for me while I was
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there. And our goal singularly was to
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help students who were not thriving for whatever that
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reason was. And so that means we were
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working with students who had, you know, learning challenges,
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who had other challenges that kept them from learning in the
7:30
traditional way in the classroom.
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And at the time they want some, there weren't great supports.
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But we also had students who just moved a lot and so weren't
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familiar with the school system and they needed some extra
7:41
scaffolding. Students who were multilingual
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and so we're learning in English for the first time.
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And then students who had psychological challenges that
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they were navigating mental health issues that were either
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keeping them out of the classroom full time or just
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getting in the way of really being engaged, aged.
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And so we really saw ourselves as this one stop place where if
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you were not thriving in school, there was somebody on our staff
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who could sit and help figure out how to help get you to the
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other side. Well, that's incredible.
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Sounds like you were like a businesswoman as well, right?
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In terms of? An accidental object.
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Or 14 you know, tutors and it's great that you were able to.
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It just sounded like you you seemingly fell into it from that
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chance encounter in the parking lot.
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But really when you connect the dots, you're like, actually, you
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know, this was something that you, I don't know, it's just
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kind of like it was like meant, meant to be, right?
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And like supporting students and really then thinking about the
8:44
various ways in which they learn, the different supports
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and, you know, like, kind of like, yeah, the supports that
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they need to thrive is something really important.
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And I would imagine us with some of them being multilingual,
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coming from different countries, you know, different family
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backgrounds, it really presented new and exciting opportunities
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because, you know, each student is a is a world unto themselves.
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And so you could probably think of it and you know, you're you
9:13
and the 14 tutors as like, you know, these individual kind of
9:16
puzzles, right? Of like, how do we really see
9:18
the bigger picture, but then dial into what is that one
9:21
puzzle piece that is missing that we need to fit in?
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And, you know, that actually kind of makes me think a little
9:28
bit about one of the the recent schools that I worked for that
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in a similar way, I think really resonates with this idea of like
9:38
helping students who are not thriving and who, you know,
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inherently that each student learns differently and, and
9:44
experiences school differently. But yeah, it was a school called
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Fusion Academy. So if you're familiar that it
9:51
seems like you kind of like you already were building out that
9:55
model before, you know, maybe even they did, but that's that's
9:59
incredible. So, you know, you kind of like
10:01
turned a very difficult situation, like filled with
10:05
different emotions regarding your your family and
10:08
specifically your father into one where, hey, you know, like
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it's these things are not mutually exclusive.
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I can still care for my father and be present while still
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advancing my career and my genuine interests, you know,
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with an education. So, so it was that like this 10
10:25
year period where you were building out this tutoring
10:29
company, What you said that like, OK, there was a moment
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where you said like I need to really like hone in and like
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study more, you know, in Graduate School.
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How does 1 arrive at that kind of moment of like decision?
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Because you know, 10 years you built out a company like most
10:47
people would think that's pretty good and you just want to stay
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on it. But you just left Switzerland.
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So like what prompted you to do that?
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Did you know, it was it was one of those leap of faith moments,
10:58
I think for a couple of years before I left, I just had this
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growing sense that I couldn't find the answers to the
11:05
questions I had about how to serve my students best.
11:09
That, you know, for the first seven years, I did every
11:13
professional development program that I could find.
11:16
I did every summer institute. I did every training program.
11:19
I did an online certificate program through UCLAI was always
11:22
looking to sort of hone my skills and make sure that I
11:24
understood what my students were experiencing and how to to meet
11:28
their needs. And I was doing a lot of college
11:30
guidance at that point, working with students who, because they
11:34
had struggled in school, we're having a harder time figuring
11:36
out, is college right for me? What is the right path if I do
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decide to go to college? And what I had found sort of
11:44
working across the breadth of who our students were and
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growing that part of the business is that I was having
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this incredible opportunity. I mean, it is literally a gift
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to sit with a young person and to carve out the space to ask,
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what is it that you think you might want to do with your life?
12:00
What are the different visions that you have for the future?
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And to be the one person in their life who has no stake in
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the game, who's just holding space for that conversation to
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happen. And then to help them figure
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out, OK, if those are the goals, how do we explore them?
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How do we make that happen? And so I would get to do that
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time and again. And I would watch my students
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who had built such resilience through their tutoring, into the
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work we had done and through their schooling, go off to
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college. And then they would come back to
12:26
visit in my office. You know, sometimes it was that
12:29
first visit home. Sometimes it was the end of the
12:31
first year. And they would sort of settle
12:34
back into my office, into this place that they had felt seen
12:37
and known and validated for. They really mattered.
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And they would come in first, like bubbling over with
12:45
enthusiasm to tell me, here's what is great since I saw you
12:48
last, here's what's good about college.
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And that would last for like 2 minutes, and then the facade
12:55
would sort of draw. Like all of those things were
12:57
true. There were lots of positives.
12:59
But the things they weren't saying to other people is that
13:02
it was harder than they thought, it was lonelier than they
13:04
thought. They felt really isolated, and
13:06
they felt like they were doing it wrong.
13:09
And as I watched that happen student after student, I
13:13
realized there was something happening in that transition
13:16
piece, getting from high school into college where there was
13:20
some need that wasn't being met. There was no reason all of these
13:23
students should feel that they are uniquely alone in a struggle
13:27
that I could see they were all having.
13:29
And I was sort of able to change the conversation in how I
13:33
prepared them for college on a one-on-one basis.
13:36
And I started to see that get better.
13:38
But once I recognized that that was a universal pattern and
13:41
started talking to colleagues around the globe about their
13:44
students transitioning into college, I wanted to know what
13:47
we could do better either in the college guidance process or in
13:51
the onboarding to college and the orientation and student life
13:54
piece. And nobody was asking that
13:56
question. And it just started keeping me
13:59
up at night. Like I couldn't continue to only
14:02
solve this at a one-on-one level because it was a much bigger
14:05
problem and it was much more important that somebody address
14:09
it. And I felt like I had this
14:11
unique vantage point on what wasn't working.
14:14
So I thought I come for my one year master's.
14:16
I would answer all those questions, but nobody was asking
14:20
the exact question. Everybody was either living in
14:23
the K12 college counseling space or in the higher Ed space and
14:27
not sort of seeing that those were the same students bridging
14:31
this space. Sometimes only, you know, 2 1/2
14:33
months difference between who the person was who graduated
14:36
high school and who the person was who was starting college.
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And I sort of felt called to answer those questions.
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And you know, when I look now at what I've been doing since 2009,
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since I first arrived at HDSCI, now train the people who do the
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work of either counseling students to get into college or
14:56
on boarding students to, to start the college experience.
15:00
And in my classrooms, those people get to be in conversation
15:03
with each other, which is really exciting to see that moment of
15:07
transition because those are the conversations that we really
15:09
need to foster. I agree those are incredibly
15:14
important conversations that we need to foster, but also they're
15:18
well, maybe not, but and they're incredibly difficult.
15:20
Right when you were talking about how we hold space for a
15:24
young person to really think about their future, oftentimes
15:28
it's rife with anxiety, fear of the unknown.
15:31
And, and there's this kind of maybe reflex, you know, like
15:37
this, the sense that like I, I, I can only stand that that space
15:42
for so long. I'm, I'm sure that, you know,
15:45
the person there like to support them and holding that space is
15:49
really important so that they can feel that much more
15:51
comfortable to really engage to the fullest and to really
15:54
earnestly kind of make sense of like, well, what are, what are
15:59
the kind of like anchoring points for me?
16:01
What are a few like action points that I can go after?
16:04
Maybe I don't have to have everything figured out.
16:05
Maybe I just need to like kind of have one or two steps that I
16:09
can go at. But, you know, I think that the
16:12
work of of counselors, teachers are also for that matter too,
16:16
but like college counselors, high school counselors, maybe
16:19
maybe they have a therapist as well.
16:21
But there's like, I imagine like a, you know, a team that can
16:27
really support a young person and making that transition.
16:30
Now, what also is it a struggle, which you're probably familiar
16:33
with, is that often times at a system systematic level, that
16:36
team is not really there because of, you know, maybe a lack of of
16:40
resources, right? Or in how like the school is set
16:43
up or the kind of main financial means of, of the family to be
16:47
able to afford those kinds of like services.
16:49
It's there's a lot there. And, and I like how you spoke
16:53
about your research and the work that you're doing as like a
16:56
bridging effect, because I find that too often we kind of just
17:02
like kind of oversimplify and think, oh, if I just kind of
17:05
handled this, then everything else will be taken care of.
17:08
Or if I just do my work, I can assume that the other people
17:11
will know what they're doing. And then is that like hand off
17:14
that, you know, potentially could be successful, but often
17:17
times gets fumble in the process because, you know, these
17:21
students are going to different kinds of colleges or maybe
17:23
they're not going to college. And that's, that's OK too,
17:26
right. Another part that I'm, I'm
17:29
really interested in learning more about with this like, kind
17:33
of like transition from high school to college is that I
17:36
think nowadays the, the, the topic of like mental health
17:40
comes up more and more. And you know, for myself, you
17:43
know, I graduated high school in 2011 and I'll be honest, I don't
17:48
think the word mental health or even just the word anxiety was
17:52
actually kind of like active vocabulary for a lot of people.
17:55
And, and so I'm just curious, like in this period of time from
18:01
when you started your graduate studies up until now, could you
18:04
speak about like how has the conversation around mental
18:07
health, specifically in this transition from high school to
18:10
college changed, evolved? I'm just curious because I
18:16
would, I would guess that it's become a lot more prevalence and
18:20
and that's a good thing. But kind of from your
18:22
background, could you speak to that?
18:23
Absolutely. I really appreciate that
18:25
question because I think our conversation around mental
18:28
health has changed profoundly, and I do see that as a very good
18:32
thing. As you know, because you've
18:35
heard me present before, I do a lot of research with archival
18:38
materials from the 40s and 50s through the 1970s.
18:41
And one of the interesting things that we have found found
18:44
in that research is that the challenges students are
18:48
experiencing, the loneliness that they are experiencing, that
18:51
struggle to find friends and build a sense of belonging,
18:54
which we assume to be new because we're hearing about it
18:57
now is not actually new. Or the anxiety and the
19:01
disconnect that students feel, the pressure that they feel to
19:04
do well, we also assume is a 20th or like late 20th, early
19:08
21st century construct. And it's not.
19:11
We have students in the 1940s talking about not being able to
19:15
get out of bed because they're so scared to show up and not do
19:18
well, about that pressure to disappoint their parents.
19:21
And so it's exciting to me to know that students now feel
19:26
empowered to name what those struggles are, and that gives us
19:30
the opportunity to help them address those struggles and to
19:33
make them feel not so alone in the process.
19:35
That is a a moment for transformational change that if
19:39
the 40s through the 70s through when I was a college student at
19:43
the end of the 1990s, if that was not common vocabulary, if
19:47
that was not something students felt safe to name for each
19:50
other, every single person felt alone.
19:52
And we now have the opportunity to validate and let students
19:56
know that they're not alone, that it is actually typical,
19:59
normal developmental to feel lonely and to have a struggle
20:03
to, you know, build a sense of community and friendship on
20:06
campus. I have a new book coming out in
20:09
April called Mental Health in College.
20:10
I mean, literally right there on the cover.
20:12
That's what we're talking about, mental health in college.
20:15
And one of the driving ideas behind it is that there are
20:19
really two conversations around mental health that we need to be
20:22
having. And.
20:25
It's that there is not one singular thing happening.
20:27
There are students who have a clinical diagnosis.
20:31
We're going to need a counseling center and that kind of support.
20:35
And the majority of students don't need that threshold
20:38
because what they're experiencing is a typical and
20:42
developmental challenge of what it is to be in a moment of
20:45
transition, to be shifting from the high school environment into
20:49
college, to feel lonely and disconnected, that you can't
20:53
quite find your people. And what we're trying to do is
20:56
to parse that conversation so that the student who's feeling
20:59
lonely can name that, and so that their family, the faculty
21:03
members, the administrators don't panic the second they hear
21:06
that somebody's feeling lonely. If we can name that as, Oh no,
21:10
that's just part of this process that is expected.
21:13
And by doing that, what we actually empower all students to
21:16
do is not only name their experiences, but it lightens the
21:20
load on the counseling center because everybody's getting a
21:22
referral because we instantly panic and think it might be a
21:25
big thing. And we don't want to miss that.
21:27
Of course, we don't want to miss that.
21:29
But if we can lighten the load, it actually creates access
21:31
points for the students who actually do need counseling.
21:34
And so we're creating, we hope through this conversation,
21:38
really caring community where we can meet both of those needs at
21:41
once. That's really powerful when you
21:46
talked about with naming of the the emotion and then also in a
21:51
way you didn't frame it this way.
21:54
So correct me if I'm wrong. So it's kind of like they're
21:56
like kind of like normalizing that like developmental.
22:01
I think you've referred to as like developmental challenge of
22:03
like experiencing something like loneliness or disconnection.
22:07
But saying like that is OK, right?
22:09
This is actually what everyone should be expressing.
22:11
You know, if you weren't, then I actually might tap you on the
22:14
shoulder and be like, is everything really OK?
22:16
You know, that kind of level of like kind of normalizing
22:19
because, you know, I think as like just humans, we are social
22:24
animals that kind of really look to those around us.
22:27
But then I think one big change maybe from the, you know,
22:34
previous decades that you were talking about from like the 40s
22:36
all the way up until now is the prevalence of social media.
22:41
I'm sure you've thought a lot about this.
22:42
So could you, could you maybe speak a little bit about, you
22:46
know, with, with those efforts of like naming it, having that
22:49
caring community and having, you know, additional resources for
22:53
those who, who really need it and are experiencing like
22:56
greater hardships in the mental health sphere?
23:00
Like how does social media kind of like, I don't know if it's
23:04
throw a wrench in all of that or kind of like where it's like a
23:07
treadmill where suddenly it's they, they hit, hit like speed
23:10
up and it goes a little faster. But like, what are the
23:12
conversations that you've had with other professionals in that
23:16
space around social media and how that's affecting young
23:19
people today? Yeah, I mean, it really is.
23:22
There are two things going on at once.
23:23
There is the challenge that is going on through social
23:26
comparison, which is obviously exacerbated through social
23:29
media. But there is then this aspect of
23:32
exactly what you named, which is that we now have more of a
23:35
language. It's more common to talk about
23:37
anxiety and the feelings that we're having.
23:39
And a lot of that does come through social media of people
23:42
who actually have access to the language, to the conversation,
23:45
to seeing that other people are struggling.
23:47
And so those two things happen, happening simultaneously creates
23:51
an interesting puzzle for us. I think more information is
23:55
better, but we've also moved towards a space where there's a
23:58
lot of sort of psych speak that is pervasive, where people will
24:02
say, I am depressed, I feel like I'm dissociating or terms they
24:07
have heard on social media, but they're not actually using them
24:10
appropriately, which is fine in conversation.
24:13
The problem is when they walk into the office of the student
24:16
affairs professional or the counselor who is supposed to
24:19
help them, who is thinking about those in clinical terms, who
24:22
hears the students saying, I'm depressed, I'm dissociating and
24:25
immediately thinks, oh, this must be a much more severe
24:27
issue. And so it's on us to then
24:30
interrogate. So what does that mean to you
24:32
that you're depressed? And where is that a diagnosis
24:35
you've had? Or is that something you're
24:36
figuring out for yourself? And then can open up a really
24:39
robust conversation of, you know, what are you really
24:42
experiencing and figure out, do they need a referral?
24:45
Is this somebody who needs clinical counseling?
24:47
If so, great. We know exactly where to send
24:49
them. But if that's just the term that
24:52
they're using and it's because, you know, grades aren't great,
24:56
it's getting colder, we miss home, then that's a different
25:00
kind of conversation that we might have.
25:02
And what's important to me in that is recognizing that not all
25:06
students are going to show up at the counseling center.
25:09
Either there's might be an impediment to getting access
25:11
because it's so crowded and there's a wait list.
25:14
Or we're hearing a lot more students who are averse to going
25:17
to the counseling center because they're worried that might
25:20
somehow impact their standing at the school, that that would have
25:23
a negative impact on them. Or they show up at the
25:26
counseling center and they don't love the counselor or they don't
25:29
feel that their counselor, you know, shares their identity,
25:31
shares their lives experience, it's, you know, knows a
25:34
perspective from which they're coming.
25:36
And so that can't be the only answer.
25:38
We have to make sure that we're opening up the space to figure
25:40
out who really needs to be encouraged to go so that we can
25:43
demystify some of those experiences and help them and
25:46
who can be helped in all of these other settings that we
25:49
have across the caring campus. Yeah, I know that's it's,
25:56
there's so many thoughts running through my head right now from
25:58
from what you shared because, you know, like social media, I
26:01
mean, while in this case we're like kind of looking and
26:04
focusing on young people, you know, teenagers making this
26:08
transition, you know, it's it's affecting everyone, right.
26:12
And so I think that there's this like kind of collective feeling
26:14
of like, it's like it's, it's like weighing us down or it's,
26:19
it's distracting us. And it's, you know, broadly
26:22
speaking, negative bad thing. But you were saying actually, in
26:26
some ways it's actually, it's, it can be, it can be seen as
26:29
something positive as well. And, and discussing the language
26:33
or the, the naming effect. But of course there's certain
26:36
caveats to that because it's, it's one thing to like kind of
26:41
speak from, from your own like felt experience, but then
26:44
another one for an actual professional to understand it
26:47
clinical terms that kind of entail real like kind of
26:51
procedures and even medication and potentially even treatment
26:55
centers, right? Because there's such AI think a
26:58
fast growing kind of industry of support specifically for those
27:04
who truly are in those depressive, almost manic periods
27:10
where they are, they are no longer to kind of cope in, in in
27:14
a way that's like, you know, it's kind of more self
27:16
regulating. So mental health is very much I
27:20
think in the in the minds of a lot of people.
27:23
And and there's like this this kind of like concern of like,
27:27
you know, maybe I don't know, is it like, has it always been this
27:34
like widely felt? I mean, I think this kind of
27:35
goes back to your research that you were talking about that
27:37
like, yeah, I mean, like different generations have
27:39
experienced these these emotions and these feelings in these
27:42
transitions. So is it more of just like,
27:45
because we are like able to see it more clearly, It's like a
27:49
veil has been been lifted. Do you think that that's more of
27:52
the case? Or again, is it just like kind
27:55
of there's these layers of like now we have like, you know,
27:58
different technologies that are just making it that much more
28:01
obvious and more precedent? Yeah.
28:03
I think it's not either or. I think this is one of those
28:06
both. And I think social media is
28:09
giving us a language. It's making it more likely for
28:12
people to be able to speak out and to get diagnosis.
28:17
The question is, do we have a higher prevalence of those
28:20
things? And, and that is a, that's a
28:22
clinical question, one that I can't answer.
28:24
But what, what I can answer from the perspective of a college
28:28
student struggling is that for 80 years of recordings that I've
28:33
listened to of students who are talking about their experiences,
28:36
they have had similar struggles. The struggles around the anxiety
28:40
that they're feeling to achieve the struggle and the pressure
28:43
that they're feeling to live up to expectations and how hard it
28:47
is to ask the big developmental questions.
28:50
Who am I? What do I want out of my life?
28:53
Who do I want with me on the journey?
28:55
Those are scary and intimidating questions, but framed the right
28:59
way and with the right scaffolding, what an incredible
29:02
opportunity and what a privilege to have to ask those things of
29:04
what do I want out of my life? And we don't do a good enough
29:08
job of letting students see what a privilege that is and also
29:13
helping them to understand that there is the opportunity to
29:16
course correct. We tend to live in a
29:18
conversation that, you know, you'll pick your job out of
29:21
college and that is your job for the rest of your life.
29:23
Or you'll pick your job out of high school and that is your job
29:25
for the rest of your life. The reality is most people are
29:28
going to pivot and have many different careers throughout
29:31
their lives. That takes the pressure off
29:33
instantly. But our young person who's
29:34
making that choice doesn't necessarily realize that.
29:37
And we can reframe the conversation to make sure that
29:39
they feel it that way too. I just felt the pressure lift
29:43
off my my shoulders when you said that.
29:46
Oh, good. I love that.
29:47
I love to have the pressure lifting.
29:48
I mean, it's, it's amazing when you start talking to people,
29:52
especially, you know, I'm 50 now.
29:55
You know, ask somebody who's 50 about their career or their job
29:59
and they will tell you about the four things that they've done
30:01
along the way, Right. But that's not the story we tell
30:03
young people. We tell them, well, I am a this
30:06
thing. And the assumption is you've
30:07
always been that. But I needed to be an
30:10
entrepreneur, I needed to be a college counselor in order to
30:14
have the lived experience that allows me to ask the questions
30:17
that make me, I hope, a good teacher today that help me help
30:21
my students to do those things. And so being able to connect
30:25
those dots as we're telling our journey, I think can help take
30:29
some of those pressures away from young people because it, it
30:33
is complicated. It's a windy road and it should
30:36
be a complicated and windy Rd. Like what a gift it is to be
30:39
able to try on different versions of a future and discard
30:44
the ones that don't fit and lean into the ones that do.
30:47
And, you know, figure it out along the way with the people
30:49
who matter to you and who care about you.
30:53
You know, so I feel like with, like when I was so growing up,
30:56
you know, like big influence on me was, was my mother.
30:59
And like, I think a lot of people really, you know, have
31:02
deep, you know, debts of gratitude for, for their moms.
31:05
And, you know, I would hear her story and, and, you know, she,
31:09
she was a nurse. She still is a nurse.
31:12
And, and it was that kind of thing where like, she just kind
31:15
of like knew like this is what her career is going to be.
31:18
And it's been like over 3 decades and she's still at the
31:22
same, you know, like she's still in the same job, same hospital.
31:25
And, and there's just like that part of me, like when I was
31:28
growing up where I just didn't think that would be my reality.
31:33
And I just felt like, you know, how could you have so much
31:35
conviction about something like that, you know, right from the
31:38
get go? And again, that like that angst
31:41
within me of like, what is my thing?
31:43
What is my thing? I don't know.
31:45
But like, I can't tell people I don't know because I'm, I'm
31:48
forced into this transition where there's only this kind of
31:51
window of opportunity seemingly right now.
31:54
There's this thing called a gap year, which was really.
31:57
I know, right. But it takes off that pressure.
32:00
And often times people do the gap year to do exactly what you
32:05
were talking about of like, lived experience.
32:07
Yeah. Do something that's not
32:09
necessarily studying for a test or writing an essay or whatever
32:14
it might be. And, and so I really resonate
32:16
with what you said about like, it's that journey of like the
32:20
twists and turns that we should really enjoy and not so much the
32:23
destination because, you know, we, we, we hope to live long
32:29
fulfilling lives. And the more different kind of
32:31
like twists and like kind of like checkpoints, the more we
32:35
can, you know, speak to those experiences from different
32:38
perspectives and hopefully grow through that.
32:42
And, and so, you know, this, but like, again, like you're talking
32:45
about this pivotal moment in a young person's life where they
32:49
are transitioning from high school to college.
32:51
And, you know, in the context of the United States, that has
32:55
become almost like the like the given right of like this is what
33:00
young people do. So you have to do this.
33:03
And, and it's been like that for I, I mean, I don't know the
33:06
numbers, but I would say for a fairly long while.
33:10
And, and that's kind of part of the culture.
33:13
And, you know, that's reflected in just the number of
33:15
universities that are here in the United States.
33:19
This question that I have refers to other countries, global
33:24
citizenship, but like, you know, kind of the bigger perspective
33:26
of, well, you know, there's, you know, all of this research that
33:30
you're doing and it's like it's incredibly nuanced and, and I
33:33
would say probably really focused on maybe a specific
33:36
population, you know, like a kind of sample.
33:40
Have you looked into kind of what that transition looks like
33:45
in other countries? Because I mean, already I was
33:49
overwhelmed just trying to make sense of what's happening in the
33:51
US But you know, I'm sure, Eileen, you probably took like
33:55
some you were curious about what was happening in other places.
33:57
Has that research started or is it already being done in other
34:00
universities? Like how do you interact with
34:02
that research? Sure.
34:03
So this my answer to that question actually doesn't come
34:05
from my work in research. It comes from my lived
34:07
experience of seeing how this played out for students in
34:11
France and how this plays out for students in Switzerland,
34:14
both of those systems. And one of the reasons that I, I
34:18
launched the college guidance part of, of the business was to
34:21
help students who had been tracked very, very early into
34:25
one of the pathways that led to college.
34:27
You know, in 4th grade or so, the equivalent of being 9 or 10
34:31
years old to decide, do you want to be in the arts?
34:34
Do you want to be in math? Do you want to be in science at
34:39
a far too young age to know exactly what that would look
34:42
like? And I started getting queries
34:45
from people who wanted help, who had been tracked into, let's
34:48
say, math and no longer loved math six years down the line, no
34:53
longer saw a path for themselves.
34:55
And they wanted to leave Switzerland in particular, to go
34:59
on a different, on a different track, to study something else.
35:02
And there really was no internal opportunity to do that.
35:05
And So what what I see when I make this comparison to the
35:09
transition and to this pressure to make decisions is that's just
35:12
happening much, much earlier in the process for students who are
35:16
coming from a system where they have to make that designation
35:19
early on. But it is the same puzzle.
35:23
It's the exact same issue that students are facing.
35:26
And it's if I can slip into professor mode for just one
35:29
second, there is this sort of beautiful developmental concept
35:33
from the psychological literature called self
35:36
authorship. It's the process of becoming the
35:39
author of your own life, which is something that happens later
35:43
in the developmental progression.
35:45
It happens around age 25 is is sort of where you have this
35:48
tipping point where you sort of take the reins and you're the
35:51
person who's in charge. Until then, the people who love
35:55
and care about you and the sort of narratives of the culture are
35:59
the external authorities that tell you what you should do,
36:03
what you should be. And so it doesn't matter if you
36:06
are in 4th grade or if you are a junior in college, those
36:11
pressures, the voices that you're getting from people
36:13
outside of yourself about what you should do with your life
36:17
feel really, really overwhelming.
36:20
And so wherever we're meeting our students and having a
36:22
conversation, we need to really be thinking about the fact that
36:26
our voice as the external authority figure has more weight
36:30
than we often realize. So the simple thing that I teach
36:33
students, and if you've been in BA7O9 in my Hugsley class, is
36:38
that when we are giving advice to young people, we never want
36:41
to give them a singular piece of advice.
36:43
We always want to give them two things that might be slightly
36:46
contradictory. So my example is if somebody
36:49
comes to me and they say I don't know what I should choose, I
36:51
have to declare my major, what should I do?
36:55
A well meaning, well-intentioned person might say, well, it looks
36:59
like you're taking a lot of science classes and you sort of
37:01
light up when you're talking about science.
37:03
So maybe you should pursue that. And that seems like a good
37:06
answer. But for my student who's not yet
37:08
self altering, they didn't hear a suggestion, they heard a
37:11
direction, you should pursue science.
37:14
And so to lighten that and make sure that we're carving out the
37:17
space for genuine exploration instead, what we say to them is,
37:21
well, you seem to be taking a lot of science classes and you
37:24
light up. So that's one thing you could
37:27
consider. But I also noticed that every
37:29
semester you're also taking in our history class and you're
37:32
sort of gravitating towards that.
37:34
So have you thought about how your interest in science and the
37:37
arts might be something? And then instantly that student
37:40
hasn't been given a direction. They've been given an
37:42
opportunity to explore. And it's such a simple tweak
37:45
that we can make that that really opens up the door to the
37:49
kind of exploration we hope that they'll have the opportunity to
37:51
do. Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking of like
37:55
a, it's like a sampler platter. It's like, you know, hors
37:57
d'oeuvres coming by. It's like, hey, would you like
37:59
the deviled egg or would you like this little vegetable?
38:02
Exactly. And we love to have to have
38:04
choices. I think we forget the power that
38:09
sometimes our suggestions hold for young people when they're
38:11
still figuring out. And it's hard to feel uncertain
38:15
at any age or stage. And so if somebody has a
38:18
suggestion for you, it's sort of easy to be like, yes, I'll do
38:21
that. But we don't want to hand people
38:24
the the map for what they should be.
38:26
We want to, you know, sit next to them while they read the map
38:30
and sort of offer, you know, feedback and, and helping frame
38:34
the questions. But it makes a difference.
38:37
It really it's such a simple tweak and it does make a
38:39
difference. Yeah, you know, and I, and I
38:41
think this applies even with like, you know, good mentor
38:44
figures in our, in our life, you know, even past the 25 year, you
38:47
know, Mark where you know, you, you kind of want them to tell
38:51
you what to do, right. I at least I'm thinking about
38:54
myself. I'm like, I'm struggling so
38:56
much. I just tell me what I need to
38:57
do. You're, you know, you're the
38:58
wise one, but like, but then they, they refrain from that,
39:03
right. They'll just kind of, you know,
39:04
really just help you understand maybe with more clarity, like
39:07
where you're at. And yeah, like you were saying,
39:10
give you some options, point in a few different directions, but
39:13
then ultimately just be like, you got to make the choice.
39:16
And I think, you know, this idea of or the concept right in the
39:20
literature around like self authorship.
39:22
I was thinking also in terms of like, you know, like you're
39:25
you're like an actor on like a stage.
39:27
So you're the protagonist of of this story.
39:29
And, you know, you really have to like step into those shoes
39:33
and just, you know, give it your best, give it your best shot.
39:37
And, you know, like, and it's interesting because you say that
39:40
it generally writes starts when you're 25.
39:44
And I'm thinking like in what you've shared about your story,
39:46
that meant you were in Switzerland, right?
39:50
And probably at some point, you know, maybe starting the
39:54
tutoring business while grappling still with, you know,
39:59
like your family's, you know, health challenges and just, you
40:02
know, but like, I think that it's and then and then I think
40:06
for myself, like 25, I just moved to Brazil and I was
40:09
starting like a brand new job and.
40:11
I was just like, there was like, there was so much happening all
40:14
at once, but it felt in a way like exciting because you had
40:17
chosen to like, you know, stake out that path.
40:22
And so, you know, the, I think it makes a lot of sense that,
40:26
you know, different cultures or like the different countries
40:30
with, you know, young people, like they're all experiencing
40:32
that similar kind of like sense of expectation heaviness of
40:36
like, oh, what decisions do I make?
40:39
But then maybe the kind of like overall system, like the kind of
40:42
like funnel funnels that we experience might be different,
40:46
right, In terms of like getting set on one track or another or
40:50
being subjected to a certain kind of multitude of, of tests
40:53
or, you know, classes that they have to do.
40:57
But inevitably, like, like there's these broader, like
41:00
developmental stages that we go through where then we become
41:04
adults and, and that's kind of like that scary like, oh, like
41:08
now I have to like make these decisions and make these
41:10
choices. So like, you know, I, I want to
41:13
like bring the conversation a little bit more to like this
41:16
idea of global citizenship. And, and if it, if it, you know,
41:20
feels right, you know, you have had experience right, as a
41:23
teenager in France and then as a, you know, young adult in
41:27
Switzerland and then, you know, coming back to the US.
41:30
And I'm sure you've travelled a whole bunch, you know, even
41:32
after that and, and in between. But, you know, as you were, you
41:37
know, kind of becoming more and more immersed within, you know,
41:40
this, this research of yours and really thinking about, you know,
41:44
high school students transitioning to college.
41:47
Was there any kind of like additional consideration as far
41:52
as like this idea of being a global citizen?
41:54
Like within this wider context of like, yeah, you'll, you'll go
41:57
on and get a job, but you'll also go on to like make some
42:00
kind of impact. And everyone's impact will be
42:02
different, but how, how does that like kind of influence like
42:07
the conversations that you have with the the student or or maybe
42:09
just for yourself, your conception of like, how do I
42:12
even approach this, this young person, setting them up for the
42:16
real world kind of thing? I mean, I, I love that question
42:21
and I'm delighted to answer it, but I just want to flip it on
42:23
you first since this is your Global Citizen podcast.
42:26
You are an educator. How do you think about that?
42:31
Yeah. So, you know, the the notion of
42:34
like global citizenship for me, I've kind of found that it's,
42:38
you know, similar to what you were talking about.
42:40
It has to be like rooted in like lived experiences, but also like
42:44
the deeper values that help us form our own sense of like,
42:47
identity. Oftentimes those values, they
42:50
come to us in the formative years when we're young.
42:53
So, you know, there's going to be influences from like the
42:55
local culture, but also from the family unit, from friends,
43:00
right? And I think that, you know, when
43:04
we get to that point of, yeah, self authorship that you're
43:07
talking about, it really gets to this feeling of like, what, how,
43:13
how are my actions impacting those around me, right, in terms
43:16
of like perception, but also like, what is this really like
43:20
leading towards? And so then that speaks to a
43:22
deeper purpose of like maybe one's mission in life.
43:25
And and so, you know, it's not necessarily that like, oh, did
43:29
you live in France or Celine or Brazil?
43:32
And like, oh, that makes you a global citizen.
43:34
I mean, I think it helps us to understand how we are expense
43:38
expansive beings and that we experience a lot and we're we're
43:43
kind of piercing our story together, as you know, in real
43:46
time, Like, but it's it also, I think really like helps us to
43:50
understand that like we are sphere of influences is also it
43:54
should be expanding and and it's towards like AI would say more
43:59
altruistic kind of purpose rather than, you know, like I
44:02
just need to make more money, right.
44:04
It's like, well, you make money for what purpose as well.
44:06
So those are kind of like the broad parameters of like how I
44:10
think about global citizenship. But by no means do I say like,
44:14
you know, that's what everyone should necessarily think because
44:17
I think it's also an exercise like, you know, like like how
44:21
how we make sense of mental health.
44:22
I'm sure you can probably find a really great definition and
44:25
that's it. But how that then is expressed
44:28
will be different from the times that we live in as well as from
44:32
the specific individual that we're talking with.
44:36
So I like to think global citizenship is just as kind of
44:39
varied and diverse and how we how that is expressed.
44:42
So does that help? Oh, it does.
44:43
I, I, I love hearing your answer and I knew that it would be a
44:46
robust and very thoughtful one. I, I think for me, it's not just
44:54
about global citizenship, it's also about the piece of local
44:56
citizenship. And I think the sort of
44:58
distinction for me and having lived abroad and worked with
45:02
people from around the globe, is that I have one singular lived
45:06
experience. And whoever I am sitting across
45:08
from, I do not know their perspective and their experience
45:11
of the world. And when I'm with someone who
45:14
has had a fundamentally different experience from the
45:16
outside, who is from the other side of the globe, I know that
45:20
their perspective is different. And I sometimes know to
45:22
interrogate that more and to open up space for more
45:25
questions. I am always sort of prompting
45:29
myself to remember to ask those questions of people who were
45:32
born in the same town I was born in or who currently live in the
45:35
same town that I live in. Because there's such beautiful
45:38
connectivity between us all that we can find in those questions.
45:42
But there are such profound differences as well in how we
45:45
each navigate those spaces. And so I think to be a a really
45:49
good global citizen, we have to turn those questions and and ask
45:52
them locally too. Yeah, and it's spoken like a
45:56
true researcher because it's, you know, you need good
45:58
questions. And and, you know, and I think
46:01
also though that you brought up, you know, the the fact that
46:03
while they're there, there, there are similarities maybe in
46:06
terms of like, hey, we're from the same hometown or from the
46:09
same country even, right. But then there comes like these
46:13
differences and so much of like, you know, just even the word
46:16
differences, it can be, I don't know if it's triggering, but it
46:19
just it, it, it points to something that I think is kind
46:24
of like happening in, in real time, especially in, in in the
46:27
US of kind of conflict, right? Of like not wanting to confront
46:31
something head on or if, if confronting headhunt domineering
46:36
and just kind of going, you know, full force and, and
46:40
winning in that sense. And I, I, I feel like, you know,
46:43
also global citizenship really recognizes that like, yeah, the,
46:47
the, the different realities, different worlds, you know, and
46:50
how we experience them will inevitably be different.
46:55
But there is something about like how we can like engage
46:58
others in a, in more of like a dialogue to kind of like share
47:02
out. This is kind of where I'm coming
47:03
from, but then also be receptive to what they're sharing as well.
47:07
And, and it's and it's difficult when the the, you know, it's
47:12
like a fundamental disagreement, but I think it also goes back
47:15
and this is like a full circle moment of like, how do we hold
47:18
that space you? Know yes.
47:19
Absolutely, whether it's another like a counseling office or
47:22
you're just like at a family dinner and you're talking with
47:25
someone who does have very different opinions, like how do
47:27
you hold that space? Actually, that's a good
47:29
question. How do you have to hold that
47:30
space? Because is it just a matter of
47:32
patience or or do you, or is it a judgement call being like I
47:38
can hold the space for this long?
47:42
That I'm going to go, I think. So for me, I have a fundamental
47:46
curiosity about human beings and their experience in the world.
47:51
And I think that comes from both.
47:53
You know, my family, I moved about every two years when I was
47:56
growing up. And so I was always the new kid
47:59
coming in and looking around and trying to figure out what are
48:01
the norms. And sometimes that move was an
48:03
hour down the road and sometimes that move was across an ocean.
48:07
It was also raised. My father was an archaeologist.
48:09
And so he, his work was trying to piece together, you know, the
48:12
lives of people in the past who could no longer speak, but we're
48:15
speaking through artifacts to try to figure those things out.
48:18
And so for me, if I come into a conversation or I do come into
48:21
all conversations eager to learn who the other person is, what
48:26
excites them, what lights them up and to find points of
48:30
connection. And I've never walked away from
48:32
an interaction with someone where I wasn't able to find
48:35
something that we had in common or something that they said that
48:40
resonated enough with my lived experience to cause me to think
48:43
about my world and my perspective in a new and deeper
48:47
way. And so it's not about holding
48:50
space until a certain amount of time.
48:52
It's more just coming into the conversation open to where,
48:57
where is that going to go? And I think that one of the
49:01
things that made my business and, and the counseling that I
49:05
did a success is that we don't listen enough to young people.
49:11
We don't carve out enough space for them to tell us about their
49:14
experience, about their struggles.
49:16
We tend to name it and tell them what they're going through.
49:20
And it is amazing and empowering to watch a young person go from
49:26
a, well, you're not going to understand or I don't want to
49:28
name it or you won't get it to a, oh, this is a safe space to
49:33
share that. That's incredibly empowering.
49:36
And to do that or to be that for somebody is, is a real gift.
49:39
And so I, I try to go in, especially to conversations with
49:42
my students, with anybody who's struggling with that perspective
49:45
in mind is I might be the only person who is carving out the
49:49
time to really listen to what they're saying.
49:53
Yeah, yeah. This, this idea of like, it's
49:56
like deep listening. Deep listening, yes yeah
50:00
actually I just like I, I I read something from the the Buddhist
50:03
monk Tiknat Han also, you know, oh gosh, it was it that yeah
50:09
Timothy, Timothy McCarthy yeah he was like he he loved he made
50:13
us read he didn't make us, but it was on the soloist.
50:15
We read, we read one of his books and, and he talked about
50:19
how brave communication is about like deep listening and loving
50:23
speech. And and so it just that's what
50:26
it sounds like you were doing with your, you know, the
50:28
consulting, was it consult? No, the counseling or the the
50:31
tutoring, like just how you approached, you know, these
50:34
conversations with young people and the need to like really
50:37
listen to them. But I think the deep listening
50:40
entails this curiosity of like, really like, like trying to find
50:47
the common ground and knowing, believing that like there is
50:51
something that can kind of bridge maybe the gap between us,
50:56
right? And so I, I find that a lot of
50:58
people don't make that effort because it takes effort.
51:01
I mean, it takes a lot of energy to, to do that.
51:04
People just kind of want to like make a, you know, guess of like,
51:08
that's, that's who you are. And then they just move on.
51:10
The I, I, I think it was more about like me just talking about
51:13
like the, the idea of like deep listening and just feeling like
51:18
it, it takes a lot of effort to, to make that work and to have
51:23
them have it register in the other person.
51:26
So, you know, I think that's a, that's a great response answer
51:30
to, to my question of like, how do we hold that space?
51:32
You know, this is kind of the, the work that that is required.
51:36
And it's especially as educators, counselors,
51:40
therapists, that's that's where we need to kind of operate from
51:44
like a place of deep, you know, compassion, curiosity, love, I
51:50
don't know, but not in the romantic sense, but just in this
51:53
sense of like, you know, like deeper human connection and like
51:56
belief in their potential and their future.
51:59
And, you know, and so with that, I, I feel like this has been
52:03
such an incredible conversation that has taken us all around the
52:07
world as well as, you know, from generation to generation to
52:11
generation. And, and I think, you know, the,
52:14
the topic of mental health in college.
52:16
Also, the name of your book, great title, by the way, is just
52:20
so, so needed. And I think as higher Ed
52:23
continues to pivot and change and buckle under the pressure
52:29
and all the things, I think really mental health is
52:33
something that will be even more talked about.
52:36
And, and I really hope that more people pay close attention to
52:40
the research that you're putting out there.
52:42
So last question I wanted to ask you book or movie
52:46
recommendation, any any suggestions for our listeners?
52:49
So based on our conversation, actually have a, a
52:53
recommendation and it is a book written by my wife called
52:57
Reinventing You. And it is about how we change
53:03
course, course correct, explore, sort of pivot along the journey
53:07
of figuring out who we're going to be.
53:08
And so based on our conversation about career guidance and
53:11
exploration, I think that that is the the right fit for today.
53:15
Also, she's a fantastic author, highly recommended.
53:18
Not biased in the least. I mean, even without bias she's
53:22
a fantastic OP. I love, well, I, I, yeah, I I
53:26
definitely want to check it, check it out.
53:28
And I love the title reinventing you.
53:30
I feel like, you know, in a way we should be in a state of
53:35
constantly reinventing ourselves.
53:37
Maybe not like, you know, like every single day, but this
53:39
notion because that sounds exhausting.
53:42
But having these like checkpoints and like, you know,
53:44
these these ways in which we can really see ourselves, kind of
53:48
strive towards goals, realize the goals, experience, you know,
53:52
victory or maybe heartache or maybe both and recognize that,
53:57
yeah, life is long and you should enjoy it.
53:58
So thank you for that, that recommendation.
54:03
And yeah, this kind of brings us to the end of our conversation.
54:07
Alexis, thank you so much, of course, for taking the time and
54:10
sharing your experiences and your vast knowledge and of the
54:14
research. And only thing left to do is
54:17
pass it over to you for any final words or any final
54:20
thoughts. I just, I want to say thank you
54:22
both for the opportunity to be in conversation today and for
54:26
the podcast in general, because after your invitation, I did a
54:30
deep dive of listening to former students and colleagues tell
54:33
their stories. And it's such a beautiful
54:35
archive. And as someone who does archival
54:37
research on, on stories, what an incredible trove of materials
54:42
for all of us today. But 20 years from now, how
54:45
fascinating will it be for people to be able to listen to
54:48
what you've captured. So thank you for, for including
54:51
me in this really special collection of voices.
54:54
I'm it's an honor to have met you and spent some time doing
54:57
this and now to be part of this, this growing collection of
54:59
voices. Music.