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Joe Maddon joins Halo Territory · Foul Territory

0:07
Speaker 1: Well, Hey Angel fans, welcome back to Halo territory. I
0:10
Speaker 1: am Mike di Giovanna, former La Times Baseball writer and
0:13
Speaker 1: host of the show, joined by my regular co host
0:16
Speaker 1: Mark Trumbo, the former Angels slugger, and we are honored
0:20
Speaker 1: to have a very special guest today, Joe Madden, the
0:23
Speaker 1: former Angels manager. Joe, how you doing today?
0:27
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. No more special than you, two guys.
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Speaker 3: I appreciate that. Appreciate that so.
0:33
Speaker 1: Joe spent thirty years in the Angels organization, including twelve
0:36
Speaker 1: as a big league coach from nineteen ninety four to
0:39
Speaker 1: two thousand and five, before becoming Tampa Bay's manager in
0:43
Speaker 1: two thousand and six. He spent nine years with the Rays,
0:46
Speaker 1: leading them to the Al Pennant in two thousand and eight,
0:49
Speaker 1: before moving on to Chicago, where he led the Cubs
0:52
Speaker 1: to the twenty sixteen World Series title, breaking that franchise
0:56
Speaker 1: is one hundred and eight year championship curse. Joe returned
1:01
Speaker 1: to Anaheim in twenty twenty and spent two and a
1:03
Speaker 1: half years managing the Angels before being fired on June seventh,
1:07
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. That team was twenty seven and twenty
1:11
Speaker 1: nine at the time. They were actually twenty seven and
1:13
Speaker 1: seventeen on May twenty fourth, before losing twelve straight games,
1:18
Speaker 1: and they have gone two hundred and fifty four and
1:21
Speaker 1: three hundred and thirty eight since, a winning percentage of
1:25
Speaker 1: four to twenty nine. So first question, Joe, do you
1:28
Speaker 1: feel a little scapegoaded by an organization that has clearly
1:31
Speaker 1: not gotten better since you were fired?
1:35
Speaker 2: Oh? My, you know, honestly, when I went back there,
1:40
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back there. I wanted to go
1:42
Speaker 2: back to Anahem. I had opportunities to go to other organizations,
1:46
Speaker 2: possibly at least an interview for jobs, but I wanted
1:48
Speaker 2: to go back to the Angels because I was an Angel.
1:51
Speaker 2: I grew up as an Angel nineteen seventy five, signed
1:54
Speaker 2: out of the Wichita tournament started the next year. Quat
1:59
Speaker 2: City's Ayoway actually become a scout and a manager. Saw
2:02
Speaker 2: it all the way through, So the ascension of the
2:04
Speaker 2: minor leagues, eventually a World Series in two thousand and two,
2:07
Speaker 2: and then just our real turnaround of everything. So I
2:10
Speaker 2: leave for a couple of years. You know, I'm very
2:12
Speaker 2: grateful for Tampa Bay and of course Chicago, but it's
2:15
Speaker 2: like going to Hazelton High School. I considered the Angels
2:18
Speaker 2: like Hazelton High or even Loafia College. Right, That's that's
2:20
Speaker 2: where I came from. That's I was eleventh Street, and
2:23
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back there because I knew what
2:26
Speaker 2: we were like. I knew the kind of player we had,
2:31
Speaker 2: and I thought it was gritty. I thought it was gritty.
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Speaker 2: I thought we were fundamentalists. I thought we played the
2:34
Speaker 2: game right and hard. It was nobody wanted to play
2:38
Speaker 2: the Angels. Nobody, And I asked the asked the Yankees,
2:40
Speaker 2: these beautiful Yankees of the late nineteen nineties and early too,
2:44
Speaker 2: that they did not want to play the Angels. So
2:46
Speaker 2: I wanted to bring that style of ball back. And
2:48
Speaker 2: I thought we were. We hit a bad moment. We
2:50
Speaker 2: hit a bad moment. Yes, a lot of There was
2:53
Speaker 2: a lot of things dictated to me within that twelve
2:55
Speaker 2: game losing Street. You know, that was just the way
2:58
Speaker 2: of the baseball world right now out And so I'm
3:02
Speaker 2: not blaming it. I'm not playing it on that. I'm
3:04
Speaker 2: not blaming it on me. We just didn't we didn't
3:06
Speaker 2: pitch well. We didn't do a lot of things well
3:08
Speaker 2: for twelve games. If it's stunk. However, I absolutely a
3:12
Speaker 2: thousand percent believe have you been left alone, the difference
3:18
Speaker 2: in the record between that moment and what you just
3:20
Speaker 2: read off would have been dramatically different.
3:24
Speaker 4: Well, it sounds like there was a lot of positives
3:30
Speaker 4: and then there was losing straight as you mentioned, and
3:33
Speaker 4: I know that you had, you know, done something to
3:37
Speaker 4: inspire the club, and we're you know, it's been talked about,
3:41
Speaker 4: but unable to really showcase that. We're talking about the haircut.
3:44
Speaker 4: I guess the question is was there some relief? I know,
3:49
Speaker 4: and I'm almost guarantee you are someone who wants to
3:51
Speaker 4: see things through, so being let go in the middle
3:56
Speaker 4: of a season is less than ideal. But was there
3:59
Speaker 4: any friction with some of the analytics that were coming down?
4:04
Speaker 4: I know, I know you've talked about it in the past,
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Speaker 4: but as someone who pioneered a lot of this in
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Speaker 4: many ways, it seems like maybe certain parts of it
4:13
Speaker 4: were overdone. The meetings were going way longer than they should.
4:17
Speaker 4: I know as a former player, day to day meetings
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Speaker 4: that last twenty minutes or more that you lose the
4:24
Speaker 4: guys immediately. It's very hard to stay in tune and
4:27
Speaker 4: it seems like you were getting a lot of pushbacks.
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Speaker 4: So what was there any relief you were kind of
4:34
Speaker 4: able to separate from that environment.
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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, you're right. I
4:38
Speaker 2: mean I've been into analytics before analytics became popular, even
4:42
Speaker 2: in the eighties and nineties. I did my own version
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Speaker 2: of it, and when I'm bench coach from Marcel and
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Speaker 2: then TC and the eventually so I had my own
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Speaker 2: version of it up on the board. And actually, if
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Speaker 2: I showed you the work I did in that timeframe
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Speaker 2: compared to what's being done right now, it's very similar,
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Speaker 2: other than the fact that more sophisticate it now because
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Speaker 2: they were able to scout every game, So that was
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Speaker 2: the primary difference. And again, it's not it's not about
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Speaker 2: receiving analytics. I wanted it, and I asked for it,
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Speaker 2: and I and I always post questions to try to
5:13
Speaker 2: fine tune whatever I got, whether uh, you know, with
5:16
Speaker 2: the rays and then eventually with the cubbies, I was,
5:19
Speaker 2: you know, I have questions, and yeah, I did question
5:22
Speaker 2: a lot of what was given to me because your
5:24
Speaker 2: eyeballs don't lie, and then sometimes they do, you know,
5:27
Speaker 2: and you have to, like you make a suggestion, or
5:29
Speaker 2: you make a statement and they give you like a
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Speaker 2: piece of paper with some numbers on you. Oh, oh,
5:34
Speaker 2: I was wrong. I saw it differently so that it
5:36
Speaker 2: works both ways. But with the with the angels. Yeah,
5:39
Speaker 2: I just I want stuff. I want information. Give it me,
5:43
Speaker 2: all give it to me. I'll give it. Give it
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Speaker 2: to me by three o'clock and after I prefer it.
5:46
Speaker 2: Like in the morning I went the Cubbies. I got
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Speaker 2: a PDF in the morning with all the stuff. I
5:51
Speaker 2: would sit in a coffee shop on chest it right
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Speaker 2: down from the water Town, Chicago little Cuban coffee shop
5:58
Speaker 2: with my headphones and my iPad and I would I
6:00
Speaker 2: would do everything. And they had They also had an
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Speaker 2: app called Ivy. The Cubs had this thing. With this
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Speaker 2: I could have. I could have previewed any batter, any
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Speaker 2: picture in any game for the last couple of years
6:14
Speaker 2: if I because I wanted to see when they when
6:16
Speaker 2: they gave me a number, a matrix number on a
6:18
Speaker 2: hitter versus a pitcher, I wanted to see why, and
6:20
Speaker 2: you know, like the swing plane of his swinging, the
6:24
Speaker 2: shape of the pitch. All these different things were important
6:27
Speaker 2: to me, and especially when I didn't know anybody with
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Speaker 2: my own eyeballs. So uh, yes, they became too intrusive.
6:33
Speaker 2: I don't like people in my office. Shoot, even an
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Speaker 2: hour before the game, when I was in internim manager
6:38
Speaker 2: there with Billy Vivasi, I told Billy, I said, I
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Speaker 2: don't want anybody in the office an hour before the game.
6:42
Speaker 2: I'm getting ready. I don't need any more interference. I
6:45
Speaker 2: don't need any more information unless I ask for it.
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Speaker 2: You've already given me all you got, so that's it.
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Speaker 2: So I think with the front offices need to understand
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Speaker 2: now and analytical departments. There's got to be a timeframe
6:56
Speaker 2: where you are permitted downstairs to a certain time. I'm
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Speaker 2: saying two thirty maybe three o'clock at the most, and
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Speaker 2: then after that go back to your offices, go back,
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Speaker 2: start accumulating more information. You don't belong in a clubhouse.
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Speaker 2: You don't belong in a room, a meeting room right
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Speaker 2: next to the coaches room. You don't belong there. Sorry,
7:12
Speaker 2: but you don't. You have a job to do, and
7:14
Speaker 2: we have a job to do. And when everybody does
7:17
Speaker 2: their jobs separately and well, good things occur. But when
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Speaker 2: groups want to impose on other people's jobs, that's when
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Speaker 2: things start to break down. And that's what's going on
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Speaker 2: in the modern game right now. Joe.
7:31
Speaker 3: It's as angel fans know all too well.
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Speaker 1: It's been a decade of futility for them, ten straight
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Speaker 1: losing seasons. Now they haven't reached a playoffs since twenty fourteen.
7:45
Speaker 1: Two part question extremely loaded. Why have they been so
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Speaker 1: bad for so long? And how do they turn this
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Speaker 1: thing around?
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Speaker 2: Well, I think part of it is, and I think
7:55
Speaker 2: Mark could attest to this. The infrastructure is not good.
7:58
Speaker 2: I'm just talking about basically the the facilities at Anaheim Stadium,
8:02
Speaker 2: the facilities in Mesa or Teesti, Tempe, which got better
8:07
Speaker 2: by just moving from the ballpark upstairs. Eventually the major
8:12
Speaker 2: league team took over the minor league facilities, which was
8:15
Speaker 2: backwards to begin with. So there's part of the infrastructure itself. However,
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Speaker 2: I will defend once we got downstairs to the minor
8:22
Speaker 2: league spring training complex, which was at one time, like
8:27
Speaker 2: I said, the Major League was less than it became better.
8:30
Speaker 2: I'm not denying that. But you walk in Anaheim Stadium,
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Speaker 2: in the locker room itself, and the way everything is
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Speaker 2: set up. It's just if you look at their weight
8:37
Speaker 2: room and training abilities. They're batting cages, all that stuff
8:41
Speaker 2: compared to I mean I was with the Cubbies. I
8:44
Speaker 2: mean the Cubs were the big leagues of the big leagues.
8:47
Speaker 2: That's just quite frankly, that's what they are. And I
8:50
Speaker 2: can't I mean, when it comes down to money, amount
8:53
Speaker 2: of money you have and how much you want to spend,
8:56
Speaker 2: don't just focus on bright, sexy, sexy objects, shiny ought
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Speaker 2: to objects. Focus on the things that are very non sexy,
9:03
Speaker 2: things that really make a difference. And a lot of
9:05
Speaker 2: that has to do with how you set up your
9:07
Speaker 2: players to succeed on a daily basis. And I think
9:11
Speaker 2: that's where the Angels have been short right down to
9:13
Speaker 2: the locker room facilities. Like I said, the way training facilities,
9:16
Speaker 2: batting cages, masa, everything about it is substandard compared to
9:21
Speaker 2: what's going on in the world today. So I think
9:23
Speaker 2: it starts right there after that's it just arrived at
9:33
Speaker 2: a culture, arrived at a functioning culture and a philosophy
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Speaker 2: of who we are and how we want to do this.
9:41
Speaker 2: I don't think that's been arrived at. There's no set way,
9:45
Speaker 2: which there was in the eighties when I was running
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Speaker 2: the minor league system. We built that fabulously. Look at
9:52
Speaker 2: our record of putting guys in the big leagues at
9:53
Speaker 2: that time, gets into the nineties. We made a good run.
9:56
Speaker 2: We fell apart with Seattle, however, we knocked on the
9:58
Speaker 2: door very loudly, and then TC. When TC was there,
10:02
Speaker 2: we came close every year. Finally So shows up and
10:06
Speaker 2: honestly brings a Dodger culture there. And I'll tell you
10:09
Speaker 2: what Dodger culture is. Fearlessness. It's real baseball. It's not
10:14
Speaker 2: worried about making mistakes. It's fundamentalism. And that's what Sosh
10:19
Speaker 2: brought with him himself. Sosia's main attribute for me was
10:23
Speaker 2: the fact that he was fearless. It's kind of like
10:25
Speaker 2: David Parker. David Parker, Larry Boa, my favorite major league
10:29
Speaker 2: coaches that ever worked with, and it comes out to
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Speaker 2: one thing, fearlessness. They're not intimidated by anything, social, never
10:35
Speaker 2: worried about answering a tough question ever. Ever, So pulled
10:39
Speaker 2: the Buttoner pushed the butner pulled the string based on
10:42
Speaker 2: what he thought was the right thing to do in
10:43
Speaker 2: that moment. Lisorda did the same thing, et cetera. And
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Speaker 2: I'm not here to glorify the Dodgers because I hated them.
10:49
Speaker 2: I hated them an instructional league. I hated their white uniforms.
10:52
Speaker 2: I wanted to beat them so badly. You know, right
10:55
Speaker 2: now Andrew's there, So and Andrews showed whatever. But I
10:58
Speaker 2: hated the Dodgers. I did everything. I disliked them. But
11:03
Speaker 2: there was a lot to like about them, based on
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Speaker 2: just one word. Never worried about making a mistake going
11:10
Speaker 2: out there and playing, trying to do the right thing
11:12
Speaker 2: in the moment, and if it didn't work out, if
11:14
Speaker 2: it was a good baseball play, so what turn the page.
11:17
Speaker 2: So she's really good at that. So once he left,
11:21
Speaker 2: that's what you're missing, this level of consistency set philosophy.
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Speaker 2: Whether you agree with it or not, it doesn't matter
11:30
Speaker 2: if there's a strong culture in place and people buy
11:34
Speaker 2: into it. If you look from outside and people are
11:37
Speaker 2: gonna accuse it of being wrong or they should be
11:40
Speaker 2: doing this differently or better. But so she never worried
11:42
Speaker 2: about that, and that's why they were successful while he
11:44
Speaker 2: was there. That's what's been missing. That was what I
11:48
Speaker 2: was attempting to do, is to bring back a culture
11:50
Speaker 2: of fearlessness fundamentalism. Playing the game right right now. They
11:54
Speaker 2: don't even didn't even care about mind leagues. They get
11:56
Speaker 2: they bring guys to the big leagues way too soon.
11:58
Speaker 2: They're always they're always trying to justify the draft. Those
12:01
Speaker 2: are the kind of things that are getting in the way.
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Speaker 4: It's an incredibly thorough answer, and I much appreciated it.
12:09
Speaker 4: Reminded me of the days at gen Autry Park with
12:11
Speaker 4: Jeter Hines telling me and so, you know, to your point,
12:16
Speaker 4: he never minded the physical mistakes. Aggressive physical mistakes were
12:20
Speaker 4: part of the deal. He wanted you to go out
12:22
Speaker 4: there and lay it on the line. The mental mistakes
12:24
Speaker 4: were another area. You you know, basically, I was under
12:28
Speaker 4: the impression if you were to miss a sign in
12:30
Speaker 4: the big leagues, you were gone. That was how serious
12:33
Speaker 4: that that type of stuff was. The attention to detail,
12:36
Speaker 4: and I haven't seen that for many, well at least
12:39
Speaker 4: of the last couple of years. One area that I
12:43
Speaker 4: wanted to ask you about this is not so much angels.
12:45
Speaker 4: It's really more broad. But I've had some spirited debates
12:47
Speaker 4: with a friend of mine who has risen to the
12:50
Speaker 4: ranks of a bench coach.
12:53
Speaker 2: In the major leagues.
12:54
Speaker 4: But He's told me it's more about the process these days,
12:58
Speaker 4: and I said, what are you talking about. It's about winning.
13:03
Speaker 4: The big Leagues is about winning, and he said, no,
13:05
Speaker 4: you're wrong. It's about the process. And I've talked about
13:08
Speaker 4: it on the show a few times, but I think
13:10
Speaker 4: you might be qualified if any of that makes sense.
13:15
Speaker 4: The Big Leagues, to me, is only about one thing.
13:17
Speaker 4: At least that's the way it was taught to me.
13:18
Speaker 4: Were there to win. We're there to win a World Series.
13:21
Speaker 4: Only one team does every year, but that is the goal,
13:25
Speaker 4: and then the minor leagues are for development and the process.
13:28
Speaker 4: In air quotes, can you expand on that a little
13:31
Speaker 4: bit if you have any thoughts.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't finish the they didn't finish the statement
13:35
Speaker 2: I used to say, the process is fearless, meaning that
13:39
Speaker 2: if you stick with a process or the process whatever
13:41
Speaker 2: that might be, what it means to you, that would
13:44
Speaker 2: then permit you to attack a situation fearlessly because you've
13:49
Speaker 2: done all the right things in order in advance of
13:52
Speaker 2: the moment and there should be some comfort involved in that.
13:56
Speaker 2: So that's where the process me and Ken you revisit,
13:58
Speaker 2: talked about that a lot. Kenny didn't necessarily like that
14:01
Speaker 2: phrase as much the process is fearless, But to me
14:04
Speaker 2: it made all the sense in the world because if
14:05
Speaker 2: I stayed with my process, I'd never be concerned about
14:10
Speaker 2: taking chances. The last part that they're omitting is if
14:14
Speaker 2: you stick with the process and build these these these
14:17
Speaker 2: building blocks annually, to me, that would lead to a
14:21
Speaker 2: pile of wins because that meant to me that you're
14:25
Speaker 2: you're systematically doing the right things on a daily basis,
14:28
Speaker 2: you were eliminating mental mistakes. That's what I the game.
14:32
Speaker 2: The uh mental physical mistakes have a part, big part
14:37
Speaker 2: in the game. Mental mistakes have no part in our game.
14:40
Speaker 2: So if you stay with the process and build on
14:42
Speaker 2: that meaning that you know, this goes A, goes before BB,
14:45
Speaker 2: goes before c et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, if
14:47
Speaker 2: you do that daily, then that's going to permit us
14:50
Speaker 2: to put that nice pile of victories that keep adding
14:54
Speaker 2: up as the season goes on. So if you just
14:57
Speaker 2: want to focus and rely on the process, it's like
15:01
Speaker 2: it's it's like the analytical world. Analytics provides a safety
15:06
Speaker 2: net for decision making. So if you just stick to
15:09
Speaker 2: the analytics and it concludes that you don't do well
15:13
Speaker 2: if you just stay with it for a while, Eventually
15:16
Speaker 2: it's gonna work out. The same with these people. If
15:18
Speaker 2: you're talking about the process, the process standing alone provides
15:23
Speaker 2: a safety net for not being successful because I got
15:26
Speaker 2: a process, I'm staying with it, and thus at some
15:29
Speaker 2: point it's gonna work out. There's a part of that
15:32
Speaker 2: it is that is true. However, when you become satisfied
15:36
Speaker 2: with just that, and that's the that is the problem.
15:40
Speaker 2: My only concern is that I work my process well
15:43
Speaker 2: and there's no real concern about winning, then you totally
15:48
Speaker 2: misconstrued what That's what we're talking about right there. So
15:51
Speaker 2: I think a fearless process done well on a daily
15:54
Speaker 2: basis leads to winning because it leads to not being
15:59
Speaker 2: concerned about making mistakes. I have done my prep. The
16:02
Speaker 2: hay is in the barn, as Kenny used to say,
16:05
Speaker 2: and I could go out there and play you know,
16:07
Speaker 2: balls out, not worried about making mistakes if it's the
16:10
Speaker 2: right baseball, if it's if it's right to throw behind
16:12
Speaker 2: the runner at first base with you know, play run
16:16
Speaker 2: around first and second, say for instance, double play situation
16:19
Speaker 2: is still in order. But this guy first base is
16:21
Speaker 2: getting huge leads. It's a great time for the catcher
16:23
Speaker 2: to backpick in order to keep him closer so that
16:26
Speaker 2: we can complete a double play and not get my
16:28
Speaker 2: short stop killed. Now, if the catcher makes that throw
16:30
Speaker 2: and it goes down the right field line, I'm upset.
16:33
Speaker 2: It was the right thing to do in that moment.
16:35
Speaker 2: Run around third base infield in okay, and this this
16:40
Speaker 2: runner is taking this enormous secondary lead at the third
16:44
Speaker 2: base in order to try to get a jump and go.
16:46
Speaker 2: That's another great time to backpick at third base. As
16:48
Speaker 2: an example, if that ball goes down the left field line,
16:51
Speaker 2: I'm not upset because it was the right thing to
16:54
Speaker 2: do in the moment. And that's where analytics really falls short,
16:58
Speaker 2: because none of that is taught.
17:00
Speaker 1: Joe, what's the toughest part of the game to coach currently?
17:04
Speaker 1: It seems like pitching has an incredible amount of resources
17:07
Speaker 1: and hitting is always frantically trying to catch up, and
17:11
Speaker 1: most hitting coaches are lasting under two years.
17:14
Speaker 2: Right now, stop blaming them, please. You know, if you want,
17:19
Speaker 2: if you want better hitters, either draft them or buy them.
17:22
Speaker 2: You know who good hitters are. It's really hard to
17:25
Speaker 2: take a guy that has not really been successful and
17:27
Speaker 2: make him successful in the major league level. Number One,
17:31
Speaker 2: analytics absolutely slants towards the pitching side of things. It's
17:36
Speaker 2: a proactive part of the game. The hitting is the
17:38
Speaker 2: reactive part of the game hitters. And not only that,
17:41
Speaker 2: I mean with the velocity where it is right now
17:44
Speaker 2: and the sharpness of breaking balls, having to commit sooner
17:47
Speaker 2: in order to get your swing started against certain kind
17:50
Speaker 2: of velocities makes it even more difficult. It's just more difficult.
17:54
Speaker 2: It's a very difficult thing to do. So stop blaming
17:57
Speaker 2: hitting coaches, blame your process. At when is somebody going
18:00
Speaker 2: to start blaming the acquisitional process. That's really what it
18:03
Speaker 2: comes down to. When you rely on hitting coaches to
18:07
Speaker 2: take somebody that's deficient. One of the most efficient things,
18:10
Speaker 2: the most difficult things to do is to teach some
18:12
Speaker 2: you know, the discerning between balls and strikes, organizing your strikes,
18:16
Speaker 2: and that's not easy. When we were there in two
18:18
Speaker 2: thousand and two and we won, that was something that
18:20
Speaker 2: I was into. If you go back and read all
18:22
Speaker 2: the stuff that I wrote before then, I was about
18:24
Speaker 2: balancing my walks to strikeouts. That was a big thing
18:27
Speaker 2: for me among my hitters, a two strike approach or
18:29
Speaker 2: really big thing. I called it the b hack, really
18:31
Speaker 2: big thing about what I did as a hitting coach
18:34
Speaker 2: that is not necessarily taught anymore. So. When you're constantly
18:38
Speaker 2: trying to get hitting coaches to take somebody who really
18:43
Speaker 2: is not a lot of it's just not ready to
18:45
Speaker 2: be there, keep them in a minor league a little
18:46
Speaker 2: bit longer. Supply the minor leagues with more efficient and
18:49
Speaker 2: better hitting coaches as opposed to just an iPad or
18:53
Speaker 2: data information or video, because that's really what it comes
18:56
Speaker 2: down to. I want you know I had. I had
18:58
Speaker 2: merv Retman, had Bennie Hines, Gosh, I had so many
19:01
Speaker 2: Bob Clear, I had so many great hitting coaches that
19:04
Speaker 2: I came up with Rick Down and was able to
19:07
Speaker 2: pick their brains. And they're the guys that made me
19:09
Speaker 2: a better as I was hitting coach and in my LEAs
19:11
Speaker 2: for seven years. To just rely on data information and
19:17
Speaker 2: the like and consider yourself a hitting coach, and that's
19:20
Speaker 2: what they're relying upon right now, to me, is absolutely wrong.
19:26
Speaker 2: Criticize your acquisitional process. Go through that first before you
19:30
Speaker 2: start criticizing coaches. Because a lot of times the acquisitional process,
19:34
Speaker 2: which is where I would want to use analytics more
19:36
Speaker 2: than anywhere, would be in that because that's where you
19:39
Speaker 2: could really comp and compare in November December, look under
19:43
Speaker 2: the hood, what are we missing on this guy? What
19:45
Speaker 2: does that guy have that we're missing? That's where you
19:47
Speaker 2: want it season in progress? Trust me, it is so
19:52
Speaker 2: overrated when the season begins. It's accurate with defense, no question,
19:57
Speaker 2: I give it to me. I want in order to
19:59
Speaker 2: play my shorts up against Mark Trumpbell, Absolutely I do.
20:02
Speaker 2: And I'm playing you what It's going to be very successful.
20:04
Speaker 2: And and I want where where shall I shift with
20:06
Speaker 2: two strikes? What does he kind of adjustment does he
20:08
Speaker 2: normally make with two strikes? It's there pitching, Yes, what
20:13
Speaker 2: is where? What do I want to attack Mark? Then
20:15
Speaker 2: the strikes? So what do I want to attack them
20:16
Speaker 2: with two strikes? And this is individually versus right head
20:19
Speaker 2: and left handed pitchers, and the same thing on what
20:22
Speaker 2: do I want to play my shorts up? It all
20:23
Speaker 2: goes against rights and left These things change. Everything fluctuates
20:26
Speaker 2: just based on handedness too. So there are certain components
20:30
Speaker 2: of this that are really accurate. And I want absolutely,
20:34
Speaker 2: I want give it to me versus what we're doing.
20:37
Speaker 2: But then there is the nebulous part of it. And
20:40
Speaker 2: when you start, like before the game, tell me what
20:42
Speaker 2: relief pictures can or cannot pitch and where you want
20:45
Speaker 2: me to slot them. All the time my starting pitches
20:48
Speaker 2: the third time through the batting order, I got to
20:49
Speaker 2: pull him out. Why if he's pitching really well, why
20:52
Speaker 2: has that not been nurtured in the minor leagues. We've
20:54
Speaker 2: taught the guy to go the third time through and
20:56
Speaker 2: have him understand maybe you got to hold back something
20:58
Speaker 2: the first time through the batting order in order to
21:01
Speaker 2: really feel comfortable the third time through the batting order.
21:03
Speaker 2: And how about just emptying the tank in the first
21:06
Speaker 2: couple of three four innings because all I want is
21:08
Speaker 2: elevated velocity with a lot of spin, and there's no
21:10
Speaker 2: pitch ability talked about whatsoever. There's so many there's there's
21:14
Speaker 2: so many discrepancies with this. And after all, if it
21:16
Speaker 2: all came down to his analytical approach, why would any
21:19
Speaker 2: team be under five hundred? There should be like just
21:21
Speaker 2: one big major leaguees worth of five hundred if the
21:24
Speaker 2: information is always so good. And that's where it comes
21:26
Speaker 2: down to the the acquisitional process. That's it. I mean,
21:30
Speaker 2: nobody talks about this stuff, but that's really where it's at.
21:35
Speaker 4: I would agree one hundred percent. I can answer those
21:38
Speaker 4: questions on my personal scouting how to pitch without an
21:42
Speaker 4: ounce of analytics. Experience taught me a lot of that.
21:46
Speaker 4: Jared and I actually we were talking about going deeper
21:50
Speaker 4: into games the on the pitching side and having a
21:54
Speaker 4: third pitch and a word command, which has all but
21:59
Speaker 4: disappeared as catchers set up down the middle now by
22:02
Speaker 4: and large, and there's a lot of goofy stuff going on.
22:05
Speaker 4: This question, though, is about where have all of the
22:08
Speaker 4: ex players gone on coaching staffs. I'm wondering if front
22:13
Speaker 4: offices view the majority of X players, is there a
22:16
Speaker 4: stereotype of them being outdated? Are they not hip to
22:20
Speaker 4: the new protocols with the weighted balls and you know
22:24
Speaker 4: batting tees if anyone remembers what those are.
22:28
Speaker 2: By the way, most really.
22:29
Speaker 4: Good hitters use one, and I was a big proponent.
22:32
Speaker 4: But to each their own. I just don't see ex
22:35
Speaker 4: players being hired. I see guys from the outside from
22:38
Speaker 4: facilities and other places that really haven't earned their stripes,
22:45
Speaker 4: you know, getting promoted to the major leagues ahead of
22:48
Speaker 4: guys that have been toiling away for a long time
22:50
Speaker 4: trying to earn their shot.
22:52
Speaker 3: Do you have any thoughts on that.
22:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of insulting in a lot of ways.
22:56
Speaker 2: And my biggest concern is who's passing the game along,
22:59
Speaker 2: which would just talking about with the ex players as coaches,
23:02
Speaker 2: who is passing the game along? That was so vital
23:05
Speaker 2: to me. And I know I get some kickback on
23:09
Speaker 2: all this stuff where people will get annoyed when I
23:11
Speaker 2: say things like this because times have changed. Oh really,
23:16
Speaker 2: the moment you stop thinking experience, feel and intuition matter,
23:20
Speaker 2: you're setting yourself up for failure absolutely on a minor
23:24
Speaker 2: league level right now, which is really considered kind of
23:27
Speaker 2: almost like a courtesy just to like park some guys
23:30
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and development really isn't part
23:32
Speaker 2: of it. That's why you see all these orchestrated pregame
23:35
Speaker 2: batting practices and stuff starting at three o'clock in the afternoon.
23:37
Speaker 2: Does nothing but tire guys out. These are major league
23:40
Speaker 2: players that are not a ball or double A guys
23:42
Speaker 2: that you're trying to get to the big leagues. I'm
23:44
Speaker 2: so against the orchestrated, choreographed pre game on a daily basis.
23:48
Speaker 2: I can't even begin to tell you. I prefer guys
23:51
Speaker 2: coming to the ballpark later. I prefer less work before.
23:55
Speaker 2: I prefer a arrested mind and body going into a
23:59
Speaker 2: major league game with adequate amount of time allotted for
24:03
Speaker 2: getting loose and whatever study you need. I promise you
24:06
Speaker 2: show Hey does not need these volumes of analytical information
24:10
Speaker 2: before every game. I promise you that's not true. I've
24:14
Speaker 2: heard recently. I mean, like last night at dinner, and
24:18
Speaker 2: I knew this to be true. Like major league guys
24:20
Speaker 2: will go into different cities, former major league players, star
24:23
Speaker 2: players with different organizations, and they'll go in and they'll
24:26
Speaker 2: hang up by the batting cage or be there a
24:29
Speaker 2: spring training for a bit. As they get there, they're
24:31
Speaker 2: immediately told, Okay, why you're here. Please, we don't want
24:35
Speaker 2: you to speak to any of the hitters about anything
24:37
Speaker 2: about hitting and pitchers. Please. I love having you here.
24:40
Speaker 2: It's wonderful to have your great but do not speak
24:43
Speaker 2: to our pictures about anything regarding pitching, mechanics, methods, whatever
24:47
Speaker 2: that you might have. We really don't want that true.
24:51
Speaker 2: This is not all made up stuff. This is true.
24:54
Speaker 2: I recently befriended a lady by name of Laura Wong.
24:58
Speaker 2: I got some information about a she recently wrote, You've, You've,
25:02
Speaker 2: You've already, you already know. She's a professor at Northeastern
25:06
Speaker 2: University in Boston. Fascinating woman, and her book is great
25:11
Speaker 2: and pretty much it really comes down to she's advocating
25:14
Speaker 2: for and defending experience, intuition, feel, gut, feel. Especially she's
25:20
Speaker 2: she's defending it, and she's and she's got examples, and
25:23
Speaker 2: it's talked to CEO, CEO, CFOs, all the heads of
25:27
Speaker 2: different corporations throughout and defending the fact that these really
25:33
Speaker 2: do exist. This, this other sense or ability to recognize
25:37
Speaker 2: what's the right thing to do in the moment exists
25:39
Speaker 2: outside of math. And it's a really well played book.
25:42
Speaker 2: It's it's a great read. I actually I'll wake up
25:45
Speaker 2: some mornings and I'll have a thought, write down this
25:47
Speaker 2: long elongated text or email, and I'll send it to
25:50
Speaker 2: her and I want her feedback. I want to know
25:52
Speaker 2: what she thinks about it. And so she her explanation
25:56
Speaker 2: and her research is so clear on where experience falls
26:01
Speaker 2: in intuition and gut field falls in high level decision
26:06
Speaker 2: making and how important it is to have that independent
26:09
Speaker 2: of math. Listen always, I always want, I always want
26:13
Speaker 2: the numbers given to me. Throw me that stack, give
26:16
Speaker 2: me reams of it, but just permit me then to
26:19
Speaker 2: call it down, and then permit us as a coaching
26:21
Speaker 2: staff to call it down to the point where we
26:24
Speaker 2: then distributed among our players who we know who can
26:27
Speaker 2: handle stuff and who cannot. Meetings can be laborers and boring.
26:32
Speaker 2: It's one hundred and sixty two game season. You need
26:34
Speaker 2: to cut that time element down. You need to That's it.
26:40
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody, they're all working today being in everybody,
26:43
Speaker 2: every organization is working from the same sheet of music.
26:46
Speaker 2: Because it's pretty much a competition among front offices, probably
26:50
Speaker 2: even more so than it's a competition on the field.
26:52
Speaker 2: That's where it's gotten to. So I will argue this
26:55
Speaker 2: with anybody any time. I'm looking for that first group
26:58
Speaker 2: that comes back and in corporate rates tried and true
27:01
Speaker 2: methods with the incorporation of new data and stuff. But
27:05
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, one voice should be
27:07
Speaker 2: heard in a dugout on the field, in the clubhouse,
27:11
Speaker 2: the manager has been kind of castrated to a certain level,
27:15
Speaker 2: and right now the front office has really ruled the roost.
27:18
Speaker 2: Managers have turned into middle managers. They no longer have
27:21
Speaker 2: the same authority to say what they think when they
27:24
Speaker 2: want to say it and express it the way they
27:26
Speaker 2: want to, because they have to run it through this
27:29
Speaker 2: this sieve, this this of information, this that that that
27:34
Speaker 2: the louteser extrapolates information down through the bottom that eventually
27:38
Speaker 2: is permitted or not permitted to be set truth. That's
27:41
Speaker 2: all truth.
27:42
Speaker 1: Speaking of managers, Joe, the Angels just hired Kurt Suzuki,
27:46
Speaker 1: and what are the challenges challenges of being a first
27:51
Speaker 1: time manager because teams seem more willing than ever to
27:54
Speaker 1: go with youth and and let's be honest, you know cheap. Uh,
27:59
Speaker 1: they're saving a bunch of salary. What are the challenges
28:03
Speaker 1: of a guy like Kurtsuzuki coming into this situation.
28:07
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it really is a classic contemporary
28:12
Speaker 2: method of leadership, which is control over empowerment. I've definitely
28:16
Speaker 2: concluded that there was a time when I was coming
28:18
Speaker 2: up any job I got, even as a youngster, I
28:21
Speaker 2: was empowered to do my job. Larry Hines was my
28:24
Speaker 2: first scouting director. And tell you what, he was in
28:28
Speaker 2: LA and I was over here and I was over
28:30
Speaker 2: in Mesa. And regardless of that separation, he permitted me
28:35
Speaker 2: to do my job, but he definitely monitored my job
28:37
Speaker 2: every day, made me send in a week's worth in advance.
28:40
Speaker 2: Where am I going, Who am I going to see?
28:42
Speaker 2: I had to write down who the scouts were at
28:43
Speaker 2: every place that I went to, blah blah blah whatever.
28:46
Speaker 2: But when it came to writing my reports, I wrote
28:48
Speaker 2: my reports based on his guidance, like pointing things out
28:52
Speaker 2: to me. But at the end of the day, when
28:53
Speaker 2: I saw Timmy Samon or Chad Curtis or Jackie Hall
28:57
Speaker 2: or Kirk mccaskell or all these guys was signing, I
29:01
Speaker 2: got to write my own report. That was my report
29:03
Speaker 2: based on the stuff that I had learned as a player.
29:06
Speaker 2: And then with with Larry Luke, Cohen Auer and all
29:09
Speaker 2: these dudes, Lloyd Christopher, all these great scouts, Gene Thompson
29:13
Speaker 2: that I met with, So I was never coerced into
29:17
Speaker 2: putting something down. It was always my stuff. And when
29:20
Speaker 2: you learn how to grow your own stuff, then you
29:22
Speaker 2: actually know things. When you're always appeasing, ameliorating somebody else
29:27
Speaker 2: in charge being that is controlling you. You never really learn.
29:31
Speaker 2: You don't know what you know. You don't really know anything.
29:33
Speaker 2: You just know you're regurgitator. And so that's that. So
29:37
Speaker 2: that's part of why the younger generation is being hired
29:41
Speaker 2: without experience. Number two, I like Kurt a lot. Having
29:44
Speaker 2: said all that, we had a great relationship there as
29:48
Speaker 2: a coach, manager, and catcher. He's really he was wonderful
29:53
Speaker 2: to exchange ideas with daily. He's a really good game call.
29:57
Speaker 2: He's he's fearless on the field, man, solid man. Go
30:00
Speaker 2: out to the mountain, talk to him. Everything was great,
30:03
Speaker 2: All that was in order, all that was in place.
30:06
Speaker 2: First time manager for me, and what that was Idaho Falls,
30:09
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one, twenty seven years of age. I had
30:11
Speaker 2: thirty two players on my team. Eight of them spoke
30:14
Speaker 2: Spanish only, and I was it. I didn't have a
30:16
Speaker 2: first base coach, third base coach, pitching coach. The year
30:20
Speaker 2: of a strike who came into town. Mike Port came
30:23
Speaker 2: into town, Preston Gomez came into town. Warren Spaond was
30:28
Speaker 2: our minor league pitching coordinator and I guess, yeah, IRV Marveless,
30:31
Speaker 2: Murv Redmond was the minor league hitting coach at that time.
30:34
Speaker 2: That was it. So you're in Idola Falls, thirty two dudes.
30:38
Speaker 2: We got stopped. Our bus was we're going into Canada
30:41
Speaker 2: eleven o'clock or whatever at night. There was nobody at
30:44
Speaker 2: the border there to check the passports of our kids.
30:46
Speaker 2: We had to spend the night there at the border. Okay,
30:49
Speaker 2: that was the minor league baseball. That's what we did.
30:51
Speaker 2: And you had to somehow figure that out, and you
30:55
Speaker 2: had to work through that. The time that Kachman, Tommy Kauchman,
30:58
Speaker 2: I was with them. They're going to Eugene, Oregon. Their
31:01
Speaker 2: rooms weren't ready because we drove all night from Boise
31:03
Speaker 2: get there like seven eight in the morning. Rooms aren't ready.
31:05
Speaker 2: I happened to be with them, and I went on
31:07
Speaker 2: the bus. I didn't fly because I need it to
31:09
Speaker 2: be on the bus, so I said, let's go. We
31:11
Speaker 2: went over to the Oregon coast. I slapped on an
31:13
Speaker 2: American Express card, which I listened. I had no money
31:15
Speaker 2: at that time, but I know I was going to
31:17
Speaker 2: expense it. And then you have the Boise Hawks staying
31:21
Speaker 2: on a beautiful hotel on some kind of beach in Oregon.
31:24
Speaker 2: These are the kind of what is I know that's
31:27
Speaker 2: not baseball, but it means everything. It means everything. You
31:29
Speaker 2: have to learn how to create in a very negative situation.
31:33
Speaker 2: So that's the only way I can conpare with Zooks
31:36
Speaker 2: going through is I got to go back to eighty
31:38
Speaker 2: one with Dicky Schofield, Devon White. Those are my big
31:42
Speaker 2: guys on that team, and what that was like, no
31:46
Speaker 2: pitching coach, no First Bay coach, no throwing regular BP,
31:49
Speaker 2: throwing extra like whatever. So that's the difference. And then
31:54
Speaker 2: when you do do that, you grew up knowing what
31:56
Speaker 2: you know. I used that phrase a lot, but it's true.
31:59
Speaker 2: You can't be a regurgitator. There's too many regurgitators in
32:02
Speaker 2: the game. People really don't know truly what they think
32:06
Speaker 2: they know, or that what they regurgitators say because they
32:08
Speaker 2: haven't lived it. And so when I say it's kind
32:11
Speaker 2: of insulting, I'm not hammering whomever is in that position.
32:14
Speaker 2: I want Zooke to be successful. I want the fellow
32:18
Speaker 2: Videlo I want to be I want all these guys
32:20
Speaker 2: to be successful. But if you're asking me honestly what
32:22
Speaker 2: I think about it. If I retrace my history and
32:25
Speaker 2: I knew how important all these steps were to me,
32:28
Speaker 2: I could never have helped the Cubs win the World Series.
32:30
Speaker 2: Never Idaho falls the old ballpark? What a dumb correct. Absolutely,
32:39
Speaker 2: but there.
32:39
Speaker 4: Were many of those, and you had to fight your
32:42
Speaker 4: way out of it. Are you saying that often heard
32:45
Speaker 4: if you don't like it, get better?
32:49
Speaker 2: Uh?
32:50
Speaker 4: And you've already answered this all pivot a little bit.
32:54
Speaker 4: Instructionally we used to and I think maybe you were
32:57
Speaker 4: part of this, have to write down if you were
32:59
Speaker 4: an adder, a subtractor, or a neutral. If you weren't
33:04
Speaker 4: part of that, you probably might agree with it. But
33:05
Speaker 4: it was self evaluating for minor league players, and I
33:08
Speaker 4: was put neutral for I was talking to Aplora's the
33:11
Speaker 4: other day about it. Hopefully you know, people thought I
33:15
Speaker 4: wasn't too delusional. At one point I did think I
33:17
Speaker 4: turned the corner and maybe was capable of putting adder.
33:20
Speaker 4: But that was part of the cultural stuff that I
33:23
Speaker 4: saw coming up, that you needed to sometimes be very honest,
33:27
Speaker 4: and I think that's the feedback that always helped me
33:29
Speaker 4: the most, was brutally honest feedback, even how you speak
33:33
Speaker 4: to people and come off Apparently I was came off
33:36
Speaker 4: as a know it all, and Craig gray Beck, in
33:39
Speaker 4: no uncertain terms, told me to figure it out and
33:42
Speaker 4: change that. And it seems in the game now that
33:45
Speaker 4: that is very unlikely to happen. Players don't want the
33:51
Speaker 4: tough criticism. I think there's a fear they're going to,
33:54
Speaker 4: you know, curl up and disappear on you. And it
33:58
Speaker 4: seems like a very challenging time to manage personalities, and
34:02
Speaker 4: especially with your background and you know, experiencing those tough
34:07
Speaker 4: places to fight your way out of, and now this
34:10
Speaker 4: culture at least, you know, in my opinion, it's I
34:13
Speaker 4: don't want to say soft, but it's different.
34:16
Speaker 2: If I tell you the truth, you might not like
34:18
Speaker 2: me for a week or ten days. If I like
34:21
Speaker 2: to you, you're gonna hate me forever. I recently went
34:24
Speaker 2: back to the Cubs convention, right we were celebrating twenty sixteen,
34:29
Speaker 2: and you know, I didn't know what to expect overall.
34:32
Speaker 2: I mean, I knew it was going to be a celebration.
34:33
Speaker 2: It was gonna be happy, the fans are going to
34:35
Speaker 2: be great. It was absolutely jammed. It was tremendous But
34:39
Speaker 2: the part of it that really overwhelmed me were conversations
34:42
Speaker 2: individual with players from that team. You know, guys that
34:45
Speaker 2: maybe I was a little bit hard with in twenty sixteens,
34:48
Speaker 2: or guys maybe that I did not concede to all
34:50
Speaker 2: the time, and that stood my ground. These guys came
34:54
Speaker 2: up to me during this time and were absolutely blew
34:58
Speaker 2: me away in a magnific away, and I conceded that
35:02
Speaker 2: I was right and maybe they were wrong. And that
35:04
Speaker 2: to me is like, that's the validation if you're looking for,
35:07
Speaker 2: which I never do. But if you are, all that
35:10
Speaker 2: tells you is like, just keep doing what you're doing,
35:12
Speaker 2: which I'm more than likely I would. But when you
35:16
Speaker 2: hear it from some really you know, good players too.
35:19
Speaker 2: I'm not just talking about bench guys. I'm talking about
35:21
Speaker 2: some guys. And so when your stuff is validated, and
35:25
Speaker 2: happened with the race too. After I left the race,
35:27
Speaker 2: I got that kind of feedback from the guys with
35:30
Speaker 2: the race too. So I thought about this several years
35:34
Speaker 2: ago in the phrase I just gave you. If I
35:36
Speaker 2: tell you, excuse me, If I tell you the truth,
35:39
Speaker 2: you might not like me for a little bit. But
35:41
Speaker 2: if I lie to you, you're gonna hate me forever.
35:43
Speaker 2: So I like, okay, what's the best coach? What's the
35:47
Speaker 2: best major league coach? I feel again the word fearless
35:50
Speaker 2: major league coach. The guy that's able to have tough conversations,
35:53
Speaker 2: that is a great major league coach. He doesn't have
35:56
Speaker 2: to have a PhD or whatever in hitting or pitching
35:59
Speaker 2: or whatever. If he shows up every day, works hard,
36:02
Speaker 2: and is an open communicator and speaks freely and openly
36:05
Speaker 2: and honestly with my players, this guy's a good coach
36:09
Speaker 2: because that's what you need. You don't need to dissemble,
36:12
Speaker 2: don't take the truth and soften it up or make
36:15
Speaker 2: it appealing to him whatever you're speaking with now, Honesty
36:18
Speaker 2: without compassion could equal cruelty. But that has to happen
36:21
Speaker 2: outside of the athletic world or professional sports. That happens
36:24
Speaker 2: with the fifth grader. You know, if I'm talking to
36:26
Speaker 2: my daughter or you know, somebody from outside. We're talking
36:30
Speaker 2: professional baseball players. So honesty without compassion equals cruelty knowing
36:37
Speaker 2: your audience. But when it comes to professional sports, if
36:40
Speaker 2: you don't have it, grow some thick skin. There's got
36:42
Speaker 2: to be a supplement for that. There's a supplement for
36:44
Speaker 2: everything else. My best coaches were the duce that shot
36:48
Speaker 2: me straight, no doubt, and I had some tough coaches
36:51
Speaker 2: starting in June midget football, the high school football, to
36:55
Speaker 2: college football to baseball. In the mind, I had some
36:58
Speaker 2: most stubiing Bob Clear, dude, if you don't want to
37:02
Speaker 2: hear it, don't ask the question, because it's coming unfiltered, man,
37:05
Speaker 2: and it's coming right between your eyeballs. That's still the
37:08
Speaker 2: best method of communication I'm talking about. On a professional level,
37:12
Speaker 2: we do sugarcoat it too much. Best coaches are Brian Butterfield,
37:16
Speaker 2: stud absolute stud you know, Mickey Hatcher, Buddy Black, Pepe
37:21
Speaker 2: Ron Reddick might be the best ever. You asked Rags
37:24
Speaker 2: a question, be prepared to have your hair parted if
37:28
Speaker 2: he disagrees with you. And that's just the way it is.
37:31
Speaker 1: Okay, let's turn our attention to the World Baseball Classic.
37:36
Speaker 1: All of our World Baseball Classic coverage is brought to
37:38
Speaker 1: you by our friends at Fox one, which is live
37:42
Speaker 1: stream all your Fox favorites together in one place, including
37:44
Speaker 1: all WBC games over the next few weeks, and after
37:48
Speaker 1: that the best MLB action all season long. Well, the
37:53
Speaker 1: US kicks off. It's WBC Friday against Brazil and Houston
37:58
Speaker 1: and Joe. I've seen some players on this year's team
38:01
Speaker 1: calling this group the quote best collection of US talent
38:04
Speaker 1: ever assembled. Knowing Mike Trout as you do, how do
38:08
Speaker 1: you how much does this burn Mike Trout, who is
38:11
Speaker 1: the captain of the last WBC team, Knowing he's not a.
38:15
Speaker 2: Part of this, Well, there's got to be a part
38:18
Speaker 2: of him, absolutely that's got to be upset about it.
38:21
Speaker 2: But there's also got to be a part of that, like,
38:22
Speaker 2: come on, man, I need to stay healthy this season too.
38:25
Speaker 2: I mean, it's he's already done that. It's one of
38:28
Speaker 2: those things you've already been there, done that. I know
38:30
Speaker 2: they didn't win necessarily, but gosh, I mean, after all,
38:35
Speaker 2: it's about playing the last game of the season and
38:38
Speaker 2: winning it more than it's playing the last game of
38:39
Speaker 2: the WBC in winning. And I'm sorry, but I listen.
38:42
Speaker 2: It's it's kind of a cool little gig that we
38:44
Speaker 2: do right now. But I don't get overwhelmed by it
38:47
Speaker 2: at all as a baseball purist. For me, it's about
38:51
Speaker 2: shocking your team into position to get to the playoffs.
38:54
Speaker 2: And like I said, played the last game of the
38:56
Speaker 2: year and win it. That's really what we should be
38:59
Speaker 2: focusing on. I'm always concerned about wrapping up too quickly.
39:02
Speaker 2: I am. I always thought spring training should be a
39:05
Speaker 2: slow dance and not not this you know, fast dance
39:09
Speaker 2: or breakdance that it's become when the WBC pops up.
39:12
Speaker 2: So I just think it's wise stream not to be.
39:16
Speaker 2: Maybe make him an honorary captain happens show, but I
39:18
Speaker 2: mean that that doesn't serve any really purpose. Just let
39:20
Speaker 2: them play. Might you take care of yourself and get
39:22
Speaker 2: ready for the season and get as many games under
39:25
Speaker 2: your belt as you possibly can and help get the
39:28
Speaker 2: Angels bright back on the right path. That to me
39:30
Speaker 2: would be my main motivation, I believe. So that's how
39:34
Speaker 2: I see it.
39:37
Speaker 1: From the WBC through the World Series to the World Cup,
39:40
Speaker 1: to NASCAR and IndyCar. With Fox one, you get it
39:44
Speaker 1: all live. Start your seven day free trial today. Offers
39:48
Speaker 1: are subject to change. Download Fox one today and stream
39:52
Speaker 1: the World Baseball Classic live March six through fourteenth. Go
39:56
Speaker 1: to foxwe dot com for complete terms and conditions. Fox
40:00
Speaker 1: one streaming now Well, Joe, one of your many claims
40:07
Speaker 1: to fame is that you're the only manager in Major
40:10
Speaker 1: League history modern day to intentionally walk a batter with
40:15
Speaker 1: the bases loaded twice to Josh Hamilton in two thousand
40:18
Speaker 1: and eight and Corey Seeger in twenty twenty two. You
40:22
Speaker 1: won both of those games with the Rays in eight
40:25
Speaker 1: and Angels in twenty twenty two. How do you reflect
40:28
Speaker 1: on those decisions?
40:30
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, Josh Hamilton could not have been hotter, could
40:33
Speaker 2: not have been hotter, and he would have tied the
40:35
Speaker 2: score by pitching to him. And I definitely, absolutely believe
40:40
Speaker 2: he would have tied the score. I mean intuition, experience, wisdom,
40:43
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, that came to bear
40:46
Speaker 2: in that moment. I know Grant Balfour didn't like it
40:49
Speaker 2: because Grant was actually a reverse slick guy. He was
40:51
Speaker 2: really good against lefties. But I think Marlon Bird was
40:54
Speaker 2: on deck and had Danny Wheeler and the bullpen, and
40:57
Speaker 2: Danny had been really good against Righty just made the
41:00
Speaker 2: move and obviously it worked, and so we put them
41:03
Speaker 2: within a Grand Slam way of beating us. I believe
41:06
Speaker 2: the actual walkom would have been so anyway, that falls
41:09
Speaker 2: under the category of dodger Mania, where you do the
41:13
Speaker 2: right thing and don't worry about answering a difficult question.
41:15
Speaker 2: That's that's really where it comes from. And that was
41:16
Speaker 2: my See, when you have a feel of freedom in
41:20
Speaker 2: the dugout, if you feel freedom and support it by
41:22
Speaker 2: your front office, you do things like that. And when
41:25
Speaker 2: you don't feel supported, it's more difficult. Athough I would
41:29
Speaker 2: have probably done it anyway, but it matters, man. That's
41:33
Speaker 2: why it's so important for the in today's world, especially
41:36
Speaker 2: the GM whoever's up top president, whatever that head guy is,
41:40
Speaker 2: the manager has to feel that support. Now, however, having
41:44
Speaker 2: said all that, managers today are rarely going to go rogue.
41:47
Speaker 2: They're going to follow the script. And the script is
41:49
Speaker 2: written before the game, trusts me. So anyway, that was
41:53
Speaker 2: that The second one secret Now this is this goes
41:56
Speaker 2: back to prep before the game. Our one line before
41:59
Speaker 2: the game was not going to let Corey see or
42:01
Speaker 2: beat us. Right, That was it. That was the proclamation.
42:06
Speaker 2: And okay, so does that mean I back off because
42:09
Speaker 2: the bases happened to be loaded to I back off?
42:11
Speaker 2: Right there? Again, there was easily I could see in
42:13
Speaker 2: four points right there. He was hot. Dude, When that
42:16
Speaker 2: guy got hot, he's one of the best young left
42:19
Speaker 2: ten hitters I've seen in a bit. Yeah, and so anyway,
42:22
Speaker 2: we did that. Now we did work out necessarily, but
42:25
Speaker 2: we only gave up three runs and not four runs.
42:27
Speaker 2: And at any of IO I remember it correctly and
42:30
Speaker 2: eventually came back and won it. And here's the other
42:32
Speaker 2: part about it. When you do crazy stuff like that
42:35
Speaker 2: and then you succeed, you know what that does in
42:36
Speaker 2: the clubhouse. I mean, the guys absolutely go nuts in
42:40
Speaker 2: a good way. So I'm not looking for attention. I'm
42:44
Speaker 2: not looking for anything other than I'm relying on the
42:46
Speaker 2: years that I spent in the game and my perception,
42:50
Speaker 2: my feel in that moment, what's the right thing to do,
42:53
Speaker 2: my intuition, what's the right thing to do right here?
42:55
Speaker 2: And not run away from it because there's a tough
42:57
Speaker 2: question answered.
42:58
Speaker 1: Were you inspired by Buck Showalter intentionally walking Barry Bonds
43:02
Speaker 1: with the bases loaded in nineteen ninety eight and do
43:05
Speaker 1: you remember what then Diamondbacks picture Brian Anderson said after
43:09
Speaker 1: that game, I do.
43:11
Speaker 2: Not, but I love Ba. Ba took Ba with me
43:13
Speaker 2: to the Rays and I think was was it an
43:16
Speaker 2: out right? It? Was it a base at the writer
43:17
Speaker 2: was in and out. I can't remember what happened.
43:19
Speaker 3: I can't remember either the next to the next hitter.
43:22
Speaker 2: I wasn't inspired by that. My inspiration managerially, a lot
43:26
Speaker 2: of it came from Gene Mouth quite frankly, and he's
43:29
Speaker 2: another that's when I was with the Angels. Gene never
43:32
Speaker 2: went to or won a World Series, but one of
43:35
Speaker 2: the sharpest minds I've ever been around. Along with Whitey Herzog,
43:39
Speaker 2: those two guys, to me were the epitome of a
43:43
Speaker 2: major league baseball manager. I was so fortunate because Gene
43:46
Speaker 2: used to give me a lot of latitude. You're talking
43:48
Speaker 2: about empowerment over control. In spring trainings, Gene had me
43:51
Speaker 2: run the bunt plays when I because he saw me
43:53
Speaker 2: run him instructional League the year before. I like the
43:55
Speaker 2: way I did it, so I got the sense Gritchie
43:58
Speaker 2: Rodney Boonie and I think Burley at shows up. I'm
44:01
Speaker 2: running but defense, you know. And I didn't think anything
44:05
Speaker 2: of it. I was too naive.
44:08
Speaker 1: Well, the Brian Anderson was the starting pitcher that day,
44:12
Speaker 1: and after the game he said of Book show Alter,
44:15
Speaker 1: that guy has got elephant Titus of the Nuts.
44:19
Speaker 3: Still one of my favorite quotes of all time.
44:23
Speaker 1: And Mark's gonna Mark's going to close the show with
44:26
Speaker 1: another question.
44:28
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Mark, Well.
44:29
Speaker 4: He's going to say a statement first. Uh. You mentioned
44:32
Speaker 4: Grant Balfour. Uh still need a translation on what he
44:35
Speaker 4: was cussing me out?
44:36
Speaker 3: Uh?
44:37
Speaker 4: I got him probably more than me.
44:40
Speaker 1: You don't understand Australians.
44:43
Speaker 2: Ask.
44:43
Speaker 4: All I could make out was I think he called
44:44
Speaker 4: me a washing machine or something, and Alfredo Griffin was serving,
44:49
Speaker 4: as you know, trying to make sense of it as well.
44:52
Speaker 4: Next day Bob Melvin strangely came up and apologized to me.
44:55
Speaker 4: I know Grant was very very passionate, as are nearly
44:59
Speaker 4: every Australian that I've played with.
45:01
Speaker 2: So there's just an aside.
45:02
Speaker 4: But what's a rule change that they could do right
45:08
Speaker 4: now to make baseball more watchable, more strategic. You've talked
45:12
Speaker 4: about Indian's limits, the three batter minimum, automated strike zones,
45:16
Speaker 4: other things.
45:17
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts.
45:18
Speaker 4: Is there one change in particular that you're passionate about
45:21
Speaker 4: you think would help the game.
45:23
Speaker 2: Yes, eliminate a lot of those strategical maneuvers, three better minimum,
45:27
Speaker 2: get rid of it, bigger bases, liminy, throw overs, get
45:31
Speaker 2: rid of it. What's the other one. I don't like
45:34
Speaker 2: three better minimum run around second base, get rid of it,
45:38
Speaker 2: don't need them, so it would be addition through subtraction,
45:41
Speaker 2: get the real game back. There was only one rule
45:44
Speaker 2: change that was necessary and it's been proven out, and
45:47
Speaker 2: that is the pitch clock and with that the evolution
45:50
Speaker 2: of the PitchCom where pitches are called more quickly because
45:53
Speaker 2: of the little device. Those are the only two changes
45:56
Speaker 2: that were absolutely necessary in baseball. The other stuff think
46:00
Speaker 2: about it eliminates strategy, and so managerially speaking, it's kind
46:05
Speaker 2: of been subtracted lesson with a managers to think about
46:09
Speaker 2: during the course of a game. So that also is
46:13
Speaker 2: part of the appeal to having a less experienced manager
46:16
Speaker 2: in the dugout, because there's less for these guys to
46:18
Speaker 2: have to keep track of during the course of a game.
46:20
Speaker 2: So get rid of run around second get rid of
46:23
Speaker 2: three batter minimum, get rid of the big base. Number
46:25
Speaker 2: of throwers the first base has nothing to do with anything.
46:28
Speaker 2: It's never been about the length of the game. It's
46:30
Speaker 2: always been about the pace of the game. So when
46:32
Speaker 2: you start messing with strategy, then yeah, you are going
46:36
Speaker 2: to mitigate minimize the abilities of a manager and a
46:39
Speaker 2: dugout furthermore to me, Sorry, boys, I love the National
46:42
Speaker 2: League game. I grew up in the America League game.
46:45
Speaker 2: I'm telling you right now, it's more fascinating, it's more
46:49
Speaker 2: intellectually stimulating. And I know, oh, double Switch would trust
46:53
Speaker 2: me get into dugout, Get in a dugout when all
46:56
Speaker 2: kinds of get a dug out in a playoff game,
46:58
Speaker 2: when you're bringing a roll this Chapman against the Dodgers,
47:01
Speaker 2: what in the seventh or eighth inning, and you move
47:03
Speaker 2: the batting order eight spots in order to make sure
47:06
Speaker 2: that he's going to be out there the next thing regardless,
47:08
Speaker 2: And what happens. You get the bases loaded in two
47:10
Speaker 2: outs and here comes Erawlees to the play and I
47:13
Speaker 2: think it was like three two or whatever. It might
47:14
Speaker 2: have been tied, and here comes Miguel Montero. MIGGI go
47:18
Speaker 2: hit for him, knowing that if this doesn't work, I
47:21
Speaker 2: don't know if my bullpen can hold up. Right now, boom,
47:24
Speaker 2: two strike pitch from Blatton and Blattin was good against lefties.
47:28
Speaker 2: Blant had that cutter that might have been the loudest
47:31
Speaker 2: home run I ever heard at Wrigley Field. I'm just
47:35
Speaker 2: talking about the actual contact and then of course the
47:38
Speaker 2: explosion from the fans afterwards. There's so many more interesting
47:42
Speaker 2: tidbits in that I'm tilling listen. This plug and play
47:44
Speaker 2: kind of stuff is not fascinating to me. The part
47:47
Speaker 2: of the allure of the game has been mitigated by
47:49
Speaker 2: all this. And again, think about it. Like I said earlier,
47:53
Speaker 2: analytics provides a safety neft for decision making, okay, because
47:56
Speaker 2: we're always going to rely on the pregame math to
48:00
Speaker 2: choreograph the game. One reason why the World series was
48:03
Speaker 2: so interesting to a lot of people last year because
48:05
Speaker 2: a lot of the analytics stuff went poom, it exploded
48:08
Speaker 2: and guys, really the guys really had to manage both sides,
48:11
Speaker 2: and it was really fascinating and interesting the watch. Finally,
48:14
Speaker 2: it wasn't a analytical created world series. Analytically created world series,
48:20
Speaker 2: so think about all that. The best changes you could
48:24
Speaker 2: be would be additioned through subtraction. We didn't need all
48:26
Speaker 2: those things in the first place. All we needed was
48:28
Speaker 2: the clock. And furthermore, I'd like to see a regeneration
48:32
Speaker 2: of the minor leagues. I'd like to see the game.
48:35
Speaker 2: I'd like to see more time spent with the nurturing
48:39
Speaker 2: of players by the time they get to the big
48:40
Speaker 2: leagues that they know exactly what to do and handle situations,
48:43
Speaker 2: handle adversity. Just because a guy hits a couple homers
48:45
Speaker 2: in the minor leagues, as I mean, he's ready, I mean,
48:47
Speaker 2: there's a complete game to be played out there that's
48:49
Speaker 2: being absolutely abused and not concerned about. How about the
48:53
Speaker 2: Milwaukee Brewers last year, ask Murph, murf is outstanding and
48:56
Speaker 2: look with the Blue Jays actually played a better game
48:59
Speaker 2: last year too. Murph right now, as a and I
49:03
Speaker 2: stay in touch with him, he does it in a
49:06
Speaker 2: way that I think any real baseball life, in a
49:09
Speaker 2: real baseball fictionon auto could appreciate. That's how it's supposed
49:14
Speaker 2: to look, the way the Brewers are doing right now.
49:16
Speaker 1: All right, with that, we're gonna close today's show. Joe Madden,
49:21
Speaker 1: former Halo's manager, always enjoy to catch up with you.
49:24
Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time. Please like and subscribe, and that's
49:28
Speaker 1: gonna do it for us. We'll see you next time
49:30
Speaker 1: on Halo Territory, part of the Foul Territory network.
49:38
Speaker 3: M