Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 44: Am I Working with the Right Therapist?

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44: Am I Working with the Right Therapist? · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey guys, so I have a question for you.
0:02
Have you ever wondered if you or your partner or with the right
0:07
therapist slash coach, have you ever wondered, am I getting the
0:10
right level of care that I need? Am I getting enough care or is
0:14
my partner getting that? So that's what we're going to
0:16
talk about today. Welcome to Beyond the Facade
0:21
podcast. I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and
0:24
I'm thrilled to have you join me in the space today.
0:26
What we're going to be doing is diving deep into the trials and
0:28
triumphs and truths of seeking authenticity.
0:31
Becoming your true self isn't about a single action or a
0:34
moment. It's a relentless pursuit, a
0:37
commitment to self that reveals a rich connection and meaning
0:40
that our life has to offer. So whether this is your first
0:43
time tuning in or you're a regular listener, know this what
0:46
you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
0:49
You're here to challenge, to change, and to celebrate the
0:51
incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
0:55
Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
0:57
immeasurable. So welcome to Beyond the Facade.
1:00
Let's get started. I'm excited to have Gary back.
1:05
I don't know what I did to, like, convince Gary to come back
1:07
here, some kind of mind trickery.
1:10
I don't know what happened. But Gary, thanks for coming
1:12
back. I appreciate you a lot being
1:13
here. I know there was a lot of good
1:14
feedback from the last podcast you did with me.
1:17
I know it's a different subject today, but yeah, thanks for
1:19
coming back. Yeah, it was not a Jedi mind
1:22
trick. It was just enjoying you, to be
1:25
honest. I really like talking to you and
1:26
I really appreciate like the framework of this podcast about
1:30
taking off masks. Yeah, yeah.
1:32
So it's an important one. It's funny because I was talking
1:35
to somebody the other day and they're like, how much editing
1:37
do you do on your podcast? I'm like, we can't do a lot
1:40
because if I do a lot of editing, it's literally called
1:42
Beyond the Facade. So kind of like what happens
1:45
with Gary and I, it's going to be what it is.
1:47
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
1:49
OK. All right, so here's what we're
1:51
going to talk about. OK, kind of set it up already,
1:53
but there are. Do you find yourself wondering
1:56
now, am I with the right therapist?
1:58
Am I with the right coach and is it going according to speed in
2:02
the specifically 40% of listeners are the betrayed
2:06
partner are the partner in healing.
2:08
So that's a big question for them.
2:09
I we're spending a lot of money and we spend it with the right
2:12
people. I'll speak for myself and I Gary
2:14
you for me. I'm big on not advocating that
2:17
choose recovery service has to be the fit.
2:19
We just want the, we just want the you guys to get the best
2:24
person possible and make sure it's the safest for you.
2:28
Yeah, I would say the same thing, probably differently, but
2:31
it's the same exact thing. I want each person to get what
2:35
works best for them, every client.
2:37
And so sometimes that's us, sometimes that's not us.
2:40
We're all, I think just like you guys are all here to be vessels
2:44
to bring help people heal. And if we're the ones that can
2:47
help this person heal, great. And if we're not, I like to find
2:50
a bit help you find a better match for a better fit.
2:53
Do you help people find a better fit, Gary?
2:56
Yeah, if I have, if I depending on how they've reached out to
2:59
me, it's a pain and how much of A sense I have of their needs.
3:03
Yeah, I'll try to help them find a better fit.
3:05
And maybe that's worth us talking about.
3:06
What is the right fit? Yeah, let's, let's start there.
3:09
Yeah, but what do what? What's your weapon of mine?
3:11
I think what's I think it's an important question for anyone
3:15
seeking therapy for anything. How do I know if I'm with a good
3:17
therapist? What should I be looking for?
3:19
And I think it's even more true with what the population that
3:22
your practice and my practice really works a lot with, which
3:25
is people who are dealing with who are probably coming in a lot
3:29
of pain in a crisis moment, maybe the biggest crisis of
3:32
their life of either having discovered something and going
3:35
through betrayal trauma or having been discovered in, you
3:39
know, some type of secret sexual behaviors and feeling immense
3:41
shame. What to me, I would suggest for
3:45
people to look at is first of all, what does it feel like like
3:47
when you're with this therapist, what does it feel like?
3:50
Do you feel that they are connecting with you, listening
3:56
with you? Do they seem to know what
3:58
they're talking about? Because you can't, you like if
4:02
it's, if it's a new experience for you, you're in a learning
4:05
curve, but do you feel like they have awareness and knowledge of
4:09
what they're talking about? And also, I think do they extend
4:13
hope without selling it to me? Like I want to come to someone
4:18
to feel better. They don't have to promise me
4:20
the moon, but I by how they relate to me, are they present
4:24
with me? And are they, do they have
4:28
experiences that they're doing and helping people through what
4:30
I'm going through that will extend me hope?
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It's not the words so much. And then I think the final thing
4:36
in that this is not a clinical thing, but it is like the
4:38
ultimate clinical thing, which is, are they normal?
4:42
Can I relate to them? There's a lot of weird
4:47
therapists. You might have to edit that, I
4:49
don't know. But there are a lot of strange
4:51
things coming out. And.
4:53
There's people that might say that about me, but like, can I
4:55
relate to this person as a person?
4:57
Yeah, they're a therapist. And this is so hard to say to
5:01
someone who's coming in as a betrayed partner, But like,
5:04
what? Because you may not trust
5:05
anymore, but what's your gut telling you about this person?
5:08
Right on. Spot on.
5:10
Yeah, that's the, that's interesting because I know I'm
5:14
not everybody's cup of tea. There are some people that just
5:17
they're not going to want my style, they're not going to like
5:19
my stuff and that's OK. That's totally appropriate.
5:22
So I love what you're talking about there and that balance
5:24
between I feel heard and understood by that professional.
5:28
Like they really, they they're understanding me and they're not
5:30
just putting me into some box with a bunch of other people.
5:33
And they actually, I feel like I'm seen and heard, but that all
5:37
part where they can challenge me in a way where I feel like I'm
5:39
still valued and cared about. But there's a real challenging
5:42
there going on when I I think that's really important.
5:45
Yeah, yeah, for people coming in and ARV Neck of the field, not
5:50
Nicola Woods and our niche with betrayal trauma and sex
5:53
addiction and secret sexual behaviors.
5:56
I want to know, are they competent?
5:58
Are they comfortable talking about these things?
6:02
Are they able to hold my pain, my hurt, my anger, my shame?
6:08
Are they able to feel compassion towards me whatever side of the
6:10
relationship I'm on, whether I've been betrayed or even or
6:13
I've done it? Can they hold me in a
6:15
compassionate stance, not a judge mental stance?
6:18
And I think other things that I would want to think about is
6:24
lots of therapists advertise they deal with trauma.
6:29
And if you deal with people, you deal with trauma.
6:32
Lots of therapists, I advertise that they deal with sex or sex
6:36
addiction. And so I want to know, do they
6:39
really, or is that like a marketing thing?
6:41
And you can't really ask that question in that way, but I want
6:44
to get a sense whether it's from reading on their website or just
6:48
talking to them, Do they understand what I'm going
6:50
through? Do they know how to work with
6:53
it? Because I would say that working
6:56
with sex addiction is very different in many ways and
6:58
working with substance abuse and alcoholism.
7:01
So addiction, addiction, addiction, but there's a lot of
7:04
there's things that are often missed and nuanced.
7:08
And also I think generally the personality types are different
7:10
on that side. And trauma is trauma is trauma,
7:13
but betrayal trauma has very, very everyone's trauma is
7:18
different, but it has common themes that run it like I'm not
7:22
enough for that my partner that that wound sexual me as a sexual
7:27
being, my belief in us as a couple or a family.
7:31
That's another level of betrayals.
7:33
The isolation of the betrayed partner that they don't want to
7:36
tell people in case they're staying, they don't want to be
7:38
judged, and they also don't want to break the ties to their
7:41
friends and family with their partner.
7:42
If so, like their sense of isolation, community,
7:47
therapeutic, family and religious values that may go
7:50
into causing them to feel shamed or messaging that they get.
7:53
There's just the lack of trust for their partner, but also lack
7:56
of trust for themselves. How did I miss this?
7:59
How or if I did see things, why didn't I speak up earlier?
8:02
Like the betrayal blindness? So there's so many really
8:05
nuanced and important things that someone should know about.
8:09
They can help all those like crevices of the betrayal trauma
8:13
wound or as the Mormon Wallowa call them, like the different
8:16
rooms in the hospital. It's really important, I think.
8:19
And so just knowing trauma isn't going to necessarily help the
8:23
therapist to really directly address some of the things that
8:30
someone who's trained, who's aware of the betrayal trauma
8:32
wounds would address. And I think the other thing is,
8:34
is that the wounds from betrayal trauma, the symptoms of them
8:39
last for a long time. First of all, they last longer
8:42
than you want them to. But I typically see like the
8:46
person's nervous system can take 18 to 24 months, sometimes
8:50
faster, sometimes longer, but to kind of really start to settle
8:54
down. And so if therapist has to have
8:57
that knowledge and also because when they feel like they're not
9:00
helping the client, they start trying all these different
9:02
things. And then if a person's, they
9:04
start to feel incompetent, if they're not able to help the
9:07
betrayed partner fast enough to because they all they want to
9:10
do. Every therapist just wants to
9:11
help you feel better, of course, but you have to have the ability
9:15
to sit in the space of I can't just wave my wand and make them
9:18
feel better, even though I wish I could.
9:20
And I it feels like I'm not an effective therapist.
9:25
I'm not going to start making all these other diagnosis and
9:28
suggest suggestions when I'm still dealing with the length of
9:32
the trail of trauma. I like that a lot there.
9:36
If so, if going back to the par, not all therapists like you got
9:41
somebody that specializes in sexual addiction or sexual
9:44
compulsive behavior versus substance abuse.
9:48
That's not the same training. What's good questions for me?
9:52
Is it appropriate for me to ask the therapist what their
9:55
credentials are? How would even navigate that?
9:57
How do I know? Yeah, I think it is.
10:00
It's appropriate to ask. This is a person you're going to
10:02
spend a lot of emotional time with, a lot of time with a lot
10:05
of emotion and a lot of money with.
10:07
So it is important to ask them. There are certifications and
10:12
trainings that are more well known than others, whether it's
10:16
the CSAT, certified sex addiction therapist or certified
10:19
Hartner Betrayal, the therapist or absat.
10:22
There's differently organizations and credentials
10:25
that are known, but there is also other people who are
10:27
trained in these two areas that don't have them.
10:32
But you want to ask them if maybe like how do they approach
10:36
it? What do they do?
10:37
The other thing I think that's important is that, and this is
10:40
hard to know, is that you want to get a sense of this is again,
10:45
a gut measurement. Has this person done their own
10:48
work? Because if you're a betrayed
10:51
partner and you're in the early stages, there is a world of
10:55
therapists and coaches out there who haven't fully done their
10:58
work. And I don't think I've fully
11:00
done my work. Just in fault.
11:02
I don't know what that would look like.
11:03
But where they're still, they're still angry, but the therapist
11:08
is hasn't worked through certain things yet.
11:11
And so their stuff is going to come in the way of their ability
11:14
to treat you. And that could be, that's always
11:16
true. Every therapist is trained in
11:18
transference and counter transference and they have to do
11:20
that. But in this field even more if
11:22
they've come. And there's a high percentage of
11:24
therapists, myself included, who've come to the work in this
11:28
field because of our own personal journeys and recovery
11:31
and stuff. So you want to make sure that if
11:35
your vibe is this person like is really, if you listen to them on
11:39
podcast or you listen to their interviews with them or you read
11:41
their writings, they can be very supportive to you as a betrayed
11:44
partner. But if they're rallying you to
11:47
be angrier, that's not where you want to be.
11:51
You should your anger should be validated 100% you're hurt.
11:55
Really anger is really over about the hurt should be seen
11:59
and validated and worked with. But there is this type of
12:04
therapist and coach in this field that that's their primary
12:08
thing and that's that that's helpful for a few months maybe
12:11
to be in touch with your hurt and anger, especially if your
12:14
strategy is to like sweep it under the carpet.
12:17
But ultimately that's not going to bring you long lasting
12:21
healing it for yourself and if you're choosing to stay in your
12:25
relationship. I, I really like that there was
12:28
a few things we wrote down around signs that you, you might
12:32
therapist. One of them was you're stuck in
12:35
endless venting. You're just like there.
12:38
And that's what the sessions consist of.
12:39
And you're like, I kind of feel like I'm just stuck there.
12:42
I was like, OK, let me think about me and my journey with my
12:45
own therapist stuck in endless venting.
12:47
Would I be able to see that I'll be able to see my stuck in
12:49
endless venting? And I think I would because it
12:53
would start to become repetitive like start.
12:57
The tricky thing with betrayal trauma though, is that
13:01
especially if they're isolated because they don't have a
13:05
supportive community or family, or they're scared to tell
13:08
people, they do need a place to vet.
13:12
They do need to come into therapy and be able to say
13:15
whatever and have the. I think one of the key roles of
13:18
a therapist in early recovery with betrayal trauma is to
13:20
validate the experience. So.
13:24
One of the things I wanted to do is I wanted to back up and say,
13:27
wait, hold on. What I'm referring to is the
13:30
individual seeking recovery, the compulsive behavior person then
13:34
seeing which is like the that part of being stuck in a of me
13:37
being in session because I recognize with your the betrayed
13:40
partner. That's a different that's a
13:41
different healing part of accountability.
13:45
I'm not saying any individual seeking recovery is a compulsive
13:48
behavior that there's not a spot share emotion, but the
13:52
accountability happens pretty quick.
13:54
You know, it's a, it's a different wound.
13:57
Yeah. And so if I'm in therapy and I
14:00
found myself venting about my spouse a lot, like if I get a
14:03
person, a man or a woman who's coming in because of their
14:06
compulsive sexual behaviors and they're venting in therapy most
14:09
of the time about their spouse, I'm like, what are we doing
14:11
here? That person's on their room.
14:14
So if I found myself that a therapist is letting me, I'm
14:17
coming in to recover and heal and from an addiction or some
14:22
kind of problematic sexual behavior and my therapist is
14:26
letting me go on and on about what's how I'm said about what
14:29
my partner said. You can't heal who's not in the
14:33
room. And the foundation of all
14:35
healing and recovery, whether it's 12 step recovery or therapy
14:39
recovery, whatever word we use, like the umbrella of recovery is
14:42
about healing starts with me. As long as I'm doing this, I'm
14:47
not looking at me. Doesn't mean I can't ever talk.
14:50
I shouldn't talk about my experiences in my relationship
14:54
because that's revelatory on how I process and things and take in
14:58
information and interact. But no one ever got it's like
15:04
talk radio, like no one ever changed their opinion who wasn't
15:07
in the in the show and and no one's ever been healed if
15:10
they're not the person in the room.
15:12
We're going to take a quick break for a moment.
15:13
I want to let you know of some things that we have coming up
15:15
with True recovery services. OK, so I'm very excited to tell
15:19
you about the unmasked intensive we have coming up in May.
15:23
It's May 13th through the 16th in Spanish Fork, UT.
15:26
The name of the the intensive is unmasked past to authentic
15:30
masculinity. Let me tell you some of the
15:32
things we're going to accomplish.
15:33
We're going to explore some root causes like at the end of the
15:36
day, what's underneath this behavior?
15:38
What's the why behind it? What's the insights into
15:41
understanding why my behavior existed?
15:44
The one that kept me in secrecy and hiding.
15:46
We're going to embrace vulnerability.
15:48
So we're confront a lot of the struggles of that non judge
15:52
mental space so you can foster more authentic connections with
15:56
the people that you love. We're going to realign with your
15:59
values. We're going to learn new coping
16:01
strategies and we're going to afford some authentic
16:04
connection. We're going to build a lot of
16:05
camaraderie to hear that happens.
16:07
I wanted to share with you what previous participants have said
16:11
about this transformation. So here's what one guy said.
16:14
I'm just going to read it to you.
16:15
I loved the connection with those around me.
16:18
It was eye opening to learn how to open up and show love for
16:21
myself and be OK with what's going on inside of me, no matter
16:25
how hard or ugly I may see it. I specifically remember this man
16:30
saying this and just being astounded by like wow from
16:34
around people that really open up.
16:36
What can I explore and learn about myself this intensive?
16:39
He found it to be really eye opening.
16:40
So anyway, For more information and reserve your spot, go ahead
16:44
and visit our website and we'll provide some information for you
16:47
and then take the time to invest in yourself so you can start to
16:53
lean in in a more authentic way in your life.
16:55
Looking forward to seeing you there.
16:58
Well, let's get back to our episode.
17:01
I wanted to do some more differentiation of Gary.
17:03
Can you clarify talking about the individual seeking recovery
17:06
versus the partner in healing when it comes to that like
17:09
you're talking about with that, can you?
17:12
Because I'm picturing the betrayed partner listening to
17:14
the and going, OK, Gary, Gary, are you asking me to like, not
17:17
be able to talk about my partner and the hurt they caught?
17:19
And I know that I'm coming. A betrayed partner is in a
17:25
different category with this stuff, I think because they're
17:28
trying to sift out what's real and what's not, what's true and
17:34
what's not. They are reeling from harm from
17:37
a partner, so they need to be able to get some reality checks
17:42
from someone who understands and can help them see what's going
17:45
on and teach them to be able to know what's true and not true
17:49
for themselves in their relationship.
17:51
Because the words don't matter because that's where the
17:53
violations were, right? That's where the harm was done
17:56
through talking in lying. So it is important to be able to
18:01
talk about it. And they do need a space, like I
18:03
said before, it's event or to process or to like.
18:08
Is this normal? Is this not all because they may
18:11
have had a history? Often they have a history of
18:13
making themselves small to their partner, you know.
18:16
Yeah, on that. Yeah.
18:19
The part can you speak to Gary? Can you speak to the betrayed
18:26
partner, the partner in healing their journey of really sitting
18:31
back and watching them work with their partner, work with the
18:34
therapist and going. I really hope they're with the
18:36
right person and they might not be with the right person and
18:40
what they might, what might be useful for them here if they're
18:42
working with the right person. Yeah, that's a great question,
18:45
Luke. I would back, I want to back up
18:46
for a second about seeking the right therapist.
18:51
Another thing I think that will be helpful for people on both
18:54
sides of this equation is when you feel your therapist is
18:57
competent, they're going to be sensitive to the needs of you,
19:01
their client, whether you're the betrayal partner or the person
19:04
who do the betrayal and what your needs are.
19:07
But they're because they know how to help you and they know
19:10
this field, they're going to drive the therapy to where it
19:15
should go. It's not going to be driven by
19:18
the betrayed partners pain. That sounds that can sound bad.
19:22
And I don't mean to minimize the betrayed partners pain at all,
19:26
but when betrayed partners are in pain, they're seeking relief,
19:29
understandably safety and relief to feel better.
19:32
And so they're like, oh, I heard this is good.
19:34
I heard this is good. I heard this is good and if we
19:36
just run to each different treatment, they're going to be
19:39
jumping treatments. They're not going to stay in it
19:40
long enough. So both for themself and their
19:43
partner, part of it's not to feel dismissed by a therapist.
19:47
I'm not saying that and don't ignore your gut, but you want to
19:50
find a therapist who can, you know, I was hoping a humble way,
19:54
say I know what I'm doing. Here's why I would suggest this
19:57
for you. I know that this looks shiny and
20:00
bright, this therapy model or this book, and they're all, they
20:03
can all be helpful. But if we're going to jump
20:05
around to all these things and if we're going to bring, I'm
20:09
going to be like a joke here. But if we're going to bring
20:11
TikTok therapy comments into our thing and that's going to drive
20:15
what should be explored. And I'm going to explain to you
20:17
with the value of this thing or not the value, but I, I want to
20:21
explain to you how I think would be most helpful to you.
20:24
All right. So they're, they're able to hear
20:27
your concerns or your fears or your desire to try different
20:31
things. Or shouldn't we be doing this
20:32
and we're not doing enough? But they're also showing you
20:35
why. They're guiding it gently and
20:38
lovingly towards a certain way. It's really important.
20:43
I've had an experience in this field, I think we all have,
20:46
where sometimes a betrayed partner is in such acute pain
20:51
and symptoms and they want relief as fast as possible.
20:55
If it's not happening quick enough, they start thinking
20:58
like, what do I need to do to feel better?
21:01
So sometimes they answer in their brains, I need to read
21:03
more about what happened to me or I need to listen to more
21:06
podcasts or I need to do more therapy.
21:09
I'm going to join three different therapy groups and I'm
21:11
going to go to four different therapists.
21:13
And some of what I've seen at times is that I'm a betrayed
21:17
partner. They're going to in their desire
21:19
to feel better faster, which is normal.
21:23
It's a healthy response actually.
21:25
But sometimes there's no faster and that's hard to hear.
21:31
And so it's like I want to feel better and I want to feel safer.
21:34
So let me read more and understand more.
21:35
The more I understand, then the safer I can be and better I can
21:39
feel. Or the more work I do, the more
21:44
therapists I have, the more groups I'm in, the more
21:48
intensives I do, then I can feel better and be safer too.
21:52
That that's sometimes the people's brains show up those
21:56
and that way they also might show up in like the more work my
21:59
partner does, then I'll feel safe.
22:01
So let me get him or her into five different groups and three
22:05
different therapies and we should do all these different
22:07
things and I need to make sure they read the right books,
22:09
listen to the right podcast. Anybody knows what I'm talking
22:11
about just nod. I think everybody's been there
22:15
and both of those sides and sometimes that connects.
22:18
While that's a safety seeking attempt, it can derail progress
22:23
or impede it or slow it down. Because if I'm jumping from one
22:28
program to another or therapist to another, because this will be
22:31
better. I heard from my girlfriend and
22:33
this Facebook group or betrayal that this is a really good
22:36
thing. I'm not staying with one
22:39
process. I'm going to have to start again
22:42
over here and again over here. There's no magic process.
22:45
There's no therapist, there's no book, there's no podcast.
22:50
That's going to just make it all better.
22:52
Unfortunate. I wish there was.
22:54
So I just caution, if you don't feel your therapist is helping,
22:59
talk to them. Yeah.
23:01
Or if you don't think you're healing fast enough, tell them.
23:04
That is so, so important. That is a part of the healing
23:07
journey specifically for the individual seeking recovery to
23:09
be able to advocate for yourself.
23:10
What about the trade partner? Can they ask questions to their
23:13
partners? I didn't.
23:15
Answer your question. Yeah.
23:16
Thank you for bringing us back, for bringing me back.
23:18
Yeah. So sometimes where that fear of
23:23
I need to feel better is I can only feel better if my partner's
23:26
getting helped because as long as they might not be getting
23:30
helped enough, then I'm in danger.
23:32
So how can I feel better? So I'm going to shift my focus
23:35
on to my partner and to their process, make sure that it's
23:40
good. And that has a whole spectrum of
23:42
like, I mean, I've seen it all. I've seen it from I'm going to
23:45
ask my partner how their therapy was as a general question to I'm
23:49
going to listen into my partner's therapy without
23:52
permission. Like a whole.
23:54
It runs the whole gamut of safety seeking behaviors.
23:57
All understandable but not always so effective.
24:01
So it's certainly OK to ask your partner what they're working on
24:04
in therapy. In fact, my opinion would be is
24:07
I would have a conversation. Hopefully if they're not already
24:10
doing it to ask your partner to, they should initiate the
24:13
sharing. Absolutely.
24:16
Hey, let me tell you what we talked about today in therapy,
24:19
you know, and that doesn't mean that they don't get privacy and
24:21
confidentiality with the therapists or their group or
24:24
their meeting or their sponsor. But here's what's going on with
24:27
me emotionally and and brought things.
24:29
I'm here's something I heard in a meeting that really resonated
24:32
with and made me think about myself or so I would really work
24:36
with somebody on that side relationship to initiate the
24:39
sharing with their partner because that also is messaging
24:42
like I'm thinking about you. I'm in the initiation of those
24:48
conversations by the person who's working on the recovery to
24:51
the betrayed partner messages to the betrayed partner.
24:54
I'm thinking, you're on my mind. I'm at this.
24:57
And so that's one of the signs of like, Oh, my nervousness can
25:01
start to relax. And think about that, you think
25:05
about the four aspects of the healing relationship,
25:07
vulnerability that exists when I show up to my partner and say,
25:11
hey, I'd love to share with you about some of my a house and
25:14
group today. That's vulnerable.
25:16
And the reason it's vulnerable is it's risk because of what if
25:18
my partner says, yeah, that I don't that they get triggered
25:21
based upon that. That's hard to hear because that
25:23
brings up memories. You got humility, which is it
25:28
takes a lot of humility for somebody to show up and share
25:30
that stuff with them. You got transparency, which is
25:32
that's what's going on inside of me.
25:33
So they're really key aspects. But yeah, I think it's really
25:37
draws back into some unhealthy relational dynamics when with if
25:43
for the partner and that's in healing going and saying, hey,
25:46
tell me about what happened in Group and my all the love goes
25:49
in the world to like, well, jeez, I won't get anything
25:52
unless I ask. So yeah, more of the individual
25:57
seeking recovery that drive that process.
26:01
I think another thing that has happened, depending on the
26:03
history of the couple, is that if there's been dishonesty in
26:07
couples therapy previously or if the person who's now been
26:11
discovered and has secrets has been in therapy, we've been
26:14
lying to their therapist. So their partner is going to
26:17
naturally feel scared. How do I know they're not lying
26:20
to their therapist? Or if it's my, my spouse is
26:24
charming and wraps the therapist around their finger, all that
26:28
stuff, which is very valid concerns.
26:30
So they get concerned. Are they wasting their time
26:33
because they're not being honest with their therapist or they're
26:36
being charming and charmed with their therapist?
26:39
And so I've had those dynamics too.
26:42
And what I often do really in the process is suggest or just
26:47
extend an invitation that if my client who has say, they're the
26:51
one with the secret behaviors and has been discovered, this
26:56
maybe they want to consider bringing their partner and their
27:00
spouse into this a session once to meet me because they they
27:05
probably have heard about me through, Oh, you're seeing this
27:08
person. And so there's so much riding on
27:10
this relationship and this healing.
27:12
It can, if it can help their partner lower again, lower their
27:17
nervous system, feel a little safer if they can see that I'm
27:21
competent, which hopefully I am most of the time.
27:24
And if they can also see that I'm not snowed by their partner
27:30
and then I can be tough on them, it doesn't mean I am like
27:32
performative tough, but that I'm direct.
27:34
And then I how I see things. And then I also talk about the
27:37
experience of betrayal in front of both of them to their
27:41
partner. Then they like, oh, I have
27:44
someone who gets what I went through.
27:46
And then it feels like my spouse's time and effort in
27:51
therapy is going to be more effective.
27:53
OK, Yeah, I think it'd be useful to spend a little more time on
27:56
the pros and cons of my partner meeting my therapist.
27:59
I think there's some I didn't. Say the cons, I said.
28:02
The pros. I know, yeah.
28:04
And I think we just have to look at the risk and the reward here
28:07
and also recognizes the professionals ability to be able
28:09
to handle that because they have to be pretty skilled at their
28:12
job to to help create to create safety for both people at the
28:17
same time. Right.
28:18
So I would process it first as my client, if we're going to
28:21
invite, let's say I'm seeing John who got discovered.
28:25
If I raise it, I'm going to process what would it feel like
28:29
for him to have his wife come into the session or is.
28:33
So I'm going to process that with him before.
28:35
I'm also going to check in to see if there's anything he's
28:38
told me that she doesn't know. I'm also going to let her know
28:42
I'm not going to lie or keep secrets.
28:44
That's not up for me to just divulge information.
28:47
But if she would ask me a question and then and he hadn't
28:50
yet shared something with her, I'm not going to lie.
28:53
I'm going to probably direct her to ask him.
28:56
So I, I want to be clear with them and I also want to know
28:59
what they need, how and what do they need to feel safe.
29:02
And I'm not trying to impose this on them.
29:04
I'm, if it's, if they're interested in it, then I, I
29:07
would do that. And then when I bring the part,
29:10
then when the partner does come to the session, I usually start
29:13
by welcoming them and checking in how they're feeling being
29:17
with us because they're a guest in someone else's therapy.
29:20
So the first thing I want to do is make the guest comfortable
29:22
and process what that's like. Does she feel like an outsider?
29:27
How? What could I do to make her
29:28
comfortable? It must be so and also somehow
29:31
aligned with her. Let her know I understand she's
29:33
probably in a lot of pain and going through a horrific
29:37
experience and that usually takes really opens things up in
29:42
a lot of wherever it goes to. But then I usually would also
29:45
ask my client, so what's it like having her here?
29:48
I just want to check in on you too.
29:49
This is our space. It's been your space and you
29:53
took this leap to bring her in and for the reasons that we've
29:57
talked about. But how are you feeling?
29:59
So that just those two parts of that conversation are often very
30:05
helpful for the couple. They feel connected during that.
30:08
And then I, I, it also usually gives enough material plus
30:11
things I know that are going on that then it guides where to go
30:14
in the session. Sometimes they have specific
30:16
questions. The one thing I don't want, and
30:19
I tell them, I usually will say this before even we do it is I
30:24
don't want a dynamic where it's like mom is coming to check up
30:29
on the little boy in his therapy.
30:32
That's not good for anyone. It doesn't feel good.
30:34
And so I make that clear. That's not the goal of this.
30:37
Like for you to come and tell me all of his bad things is that
30:40
the person before even bring their spouse in, I let them know
30:43
that's not what I want to do. I don't want to have that the
30:45
conversation. Sometimes they need to share
30:47
something and that's fine, but I'm not, I don't want to make
30:50
this a session where they're, they have to be, they're being
30:53
checked on by their spouse to see if they're really being
30:57
honest and they tell me everything.
30:58
And because that just feels diminishing and punitive and it
31:03
I'd rather, if those issues are existing, figure out a different
31:06
way to address them than that. Yeah, and that's why I like pros
31:10
and cons. Like I, I believe if you speak
31:13
to in generalities that there's so many benefits for the
31:19
partner, being able to be seen by their partners professional
31:24
and for the people that are seeking recovery, it's scary for
31:28
them, but they also want it to a level 2.
31:31
They want to be able to learn how to be open with their
31:33
partner. And that's a excellent space to
31:35
be able to navigate some conversations that are hard to
31:37
do on yourself. And I'm not talking about
31:40
couples counseling, I'm just talking about a joint session
31:42
between those two. And so there's a lot of trust
31:47
that can be built during that. And there is, there's some, but
31:51
there's also some really basic things that can be shared during
31:55
that. Like one of the things that all
31:56
happened, I get a chance to meet my client's partner is be able
32:00
to set the stage for, set the stage for what healing looks
32:03
like from you show up at the session.
32:05
And that client hopefully breaks through levels of denial and
32:08
share stuff with me that they just feel like the world can't
32:11
handle. And then there's going to be a
32:13
period of time where they move through that to where they get
32:15
to a place to be able to share that with our partner.
32:17
You'd allow there to be somewhat of reality that's really
32:21
uncomfortable and you talk about that.
32:23
And then also what that what the environment will consist of and
32:26
what to expect and can be a really rewarding conversation
32:30
for them. But it's hard so.
32:32
Yeah. And I also think sometimes that
32:34
session can also be used as talking to them together about
32:37
what does, what does the road map look like?
32:41
If there are couples therapy, they'll probably hopefully get
32:43
that by a couple of therapists. What does it look like for them
32:46
as a couple? But a betrayed partner may want
32:49
to know, what does my partner's recovery road map look like?
32:52
What does their healing look like?
32:54
Because that will help me know how I am, how safe I am too.
32:58
So I want to like map that out and then also answer questions.
33:05
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So Gary, maybe one of the
33:08
closing questions I have here is this.
33:10
How do I measure whether my partner's with the right person
33:12
or not? How can I know?
33:14
Yeah, that's an excellent question.
33:16
First of all, I think it's important to realize that they
33:19
are never going to heal or recover fast enough.
33:24
Fast enough would be that it just never happened.
33:27
But even now that it has happened, there is usually a
33:30
tremendous learning curve for both people in the relationship.
33:35
They both lost their attachment person.
33:39
How do you deal with that? They're they both are navigating
33:42
a situation that that they've probably never been in before in
33:45
some ways. So it's all new.
33:48
And so for the person who has been discovered and they've lost
33:53
their, even though they were cheating whatever way on their
33:57
partner, that still is their attachment person.
34:00
Also, they're often if their behaviors are like an attachment
34:05
object, like they use the behaviors is another way to feel
34:09
OK. So they've lost both if they've
34:11
stopped. So you've got all a number of
34:14
things that have to happen to bring the person up to speed.
34:17
And during this time your life is in a relationship is going on
34:20
and you have me to code. So they've got to learn.
34:23
They've got to like breakthrough denial, which depending on where
34:27
the person's at could already be done or it could take a while or
34:30
multiple layers of denial, which is usually the case, right?
34:35
They've got to learn how do you get more in touch with their
34:38
feelings become what I would call emotionally literate.
34:41
Also for many men specifically and some women, but it's a new
34:46
experience. So when they're asked how
34:48
they're feeling is not tired or good or fine, but it's more than
34:52
that. They have to then learn how to
34:54
have the courage or the guts to share their feelings when it
34:59
might upset their partner, which is a huge learning curve.
35:02
If they've been secretive or dishonest all or most of their
35:05
life, they have to learn how to be honest.
35:07
What do you mean you have to learn how to be honest?
35:09
They have to learn how to be honest.
35:10
Their brain has developed the ability to compartmentalize
35:15
things. And often, like we say, like
35:16
denial, don't even know I am lying.
35:18
Like they don't even know they're being dishonest.
35:20
So these are all just beginning things.
35:22
They also have to learn as they learn, become emotionally
35:25
literate. They have to be able to handle
35:28
and I don't think many people, especially men can do this,
35:31
their spouse being upset or in pain.
35:35
Men are as a way to get away from their own discomfort with
35:38
feelings and best because of masculinity they can't.
35:42
They have a hard time tolerating other people's feelings too.
35:45
So most many men can maybe tolerate them if their spouse is
35:48
having feelings about someone else.
35:50
Like my mother's driving me crazy or my girlfriend did it or
35:53
the kids are upsetting me. They can be there a little and
35:56
whatever way they're able to show up.
35:58
But when the feet, the pain is coming as mirrored back from
36:01
something you yourself did, and that kicks up shame.
36:04
Most men, in my opinion, and I, this was the hardest thing for
36:08
me in any recovery was to learn how to tolerate the feelings of
36:13
shame and not then react out of shame, which comes out for me
36:17
and other people, defensiveness or shutting down.
36:19
Some people would storm out of the room, some people would get
36:22
bigger. That's the biggest learning
36:24
curve. So all those things are
36:25
happening. It's like a super steep learning
36:28
curve at the beginning. It takes a while and it's messy.
36:32
It's messy. So what I would say to the
36:34
betray partner is they're not going to.
36:37
I've heard the phrase, I'm sure you have to look.
36:39
They're just not getting it. They don't get it.
36:41
Like it's going to take a while to get it.
36:44
That's the truth. Like all those things are up
36:46
stages and it's not fair. It's not fair to the betray
36:49
partner that it doesn't just happen overnight.
36:52
Even if you go to spend a ton of money and do an inpatient
36:55
program for 45 days, they come back.
36:57
They're still have a huge learning curve too, especially
37:00
now that they're interacting. That's where all the learning
37:02
is. So that's why I think it's so
37:06
important for the betrayed partner to get support during
37:09
this time because they're both going to make what I think are
37:13
probably, hopefully they get to a place where they're both
37:15
making best efforts with where they're at.
37:20
And it's still not good, sometimes good enough.
37:23
And so it's going to take a while of messiness and hurt and
37:28
a lot of mishaps. What happens often in the same
37:32
and just though partner conversations is at first the
37:37
person is defensive, angry, gets lies back, argues back you did
37:41
this also like that. Then they learn to not do that.
37:44
Then they learn to not defend. Then they learn to listen.
37:49
But when they listen they're basically like a robot.
37:53
So they just sit there not emotion in a non emotive way of
37:56
listening because they've learned that if I argue back, if
37:58
I say something it's probably the wrong thing.
38:00
So they get quiet, but their partner doesn't feel connected.
38:03
Then they learn to say, I'm not to say something back and
38:05
connect, but it's not yet fully heartfelt.
38:08
It's not fully empathetic. So then it still feels falling
38:12
short. These are all phases along the
38:14
lines of healing for the person who's trying to learn it.
38:17
But in the meantime, I'm still the betrayed partners still
38:20
spinning out over here of it like bleeding out in pain.
38:23
So it's really messy. It's that's why I think that in
38:27
this process of finding therapy to get both people in the
38:31
individual therapy. I'm a big believers, but in this
38:35
area of therapy, group therapy for different reasons but
38:39
similar also they both you need more support than a one hour
38:42
session a week just to navigate. Yeah.
38:47
And you're functioning at a diminished capacity.
38:52
You're going through trauma, you're in current traumas of a
38:54
trade partner, and you may be taking care of kids or a job
38:58
plus your relationship, live your life, run a household, all
39:01
these things. You're functioning diminished
39:03
capacity, emotionally, energetically, intellectually.
39:08
People need extra support. Yeah, that's so good.
39:13
So there's a few things that I've taken from a conversation
39:17
do today, Gary. I think finding the right fit,
39:19
it's not always easy to be endless.
39:22
But once you're there, feeling safe, feeling supported, feeling
39:26
challenged. But if you're scared to like it,
39:29
open up. Like just it's OK to ask
39:33
questions, to seek to understand why for yourself or for your
39:37
partner when they're with the right person.
39:39
And then the change takes a really long time and just zoom
39:42
out, take a look at it. And then your trust, your
39:46
intuition, trust those senses because that's going to be a big
39:48
part of the process. Yeah.
39:51
Hey, Gary, where do people find you?
39:54
Tell us. Fine.
39:55
I'm in my office at home. They can find me at
39:58
intimacyrecovery.com is our website.
40:01
We're the Center for intimacy. And also people can e-mail me
40:05
directly with their questions about what we're talking about
40:09
or other things. I'm I'm, I hope to always be
40:12
able to get to them. And my e-mail is
40:14
mynamegarykatzgarykatz@intimacyrecovery.com. Very cool.
40:25
Thank you for spending time with today, Gary.
40:26
Appreciate it. Yeah.
40:27
And thanks again Luke. I want to do a third time if I
40:29
can come back I would love to of.
40:30
Course I would would love that based on feedback, other people
40:35
would too. Awesome.
40:36
Thanks everybody. Your body holds on to so much of
40:41
the trauma that you've experienced, even if you've
40:44
tried so hard in your mind to let go of it.
40:48
Because trauma isn't just a memory, it is stored deep within
40:51
you. And that true healing means
40:53
going beyond just talking about it.
40:56
Which is why I'm so excited about the up and coming body
41:00
awakened brain spotting intensive.
41:03
There are a few spots left. I would love to have you join
41:05
me. It's small, it's intimate.
41:07
Where you will experience deep body centered healing through
41:11
brain spotting, powerful somatic exercises and connection in a
41:15
supportive community that sees you, that holds space for you,
41:19
and that can help you reclaim what was taken.
41:22
This isn't just about healing, it's about transformation.
41:25
It's about reconnecting to your body and releasing what no
41:28
longer serves you and stepping more into that empowered whole
41:32
version of you. This is what I love helping my
41:35
clients attain and doing it in a very intensified way can be
41:39
really powerful. April 10th through 12th.
41:42
Click the show notes for brain spotting intensive.
41:46
But it's not just about brain spotting.
41:48
We're doing so many experiences with the body to connect back to
41:52
the body. I cannot wait.
41:53
Come join me. Let's awaken your body and
41:57
release the trauma and start reclaiming safety and reclaiming
42:01
you. Hi, my name is Hallie Roderick
42:04
with Choose Recovery Services. And if you're a woman healing
42:07
from betrayal trauma and you find yourself feeling stuck or
42:12
experiencing overwhelming triggers, having a difficult
42:15
time trusting yourself or even thinking about trusting others
42:18
or having a hard time understanding what healthy
42:21
boundaries are, how to hold those.
42:23
I want to invite you to consider joining us at our upcoming
42:27
Courage to Thrive Intensive held on April 23rd through 26th in
42:32
Spanish Fork, UT. These intensives are one of my
42:35
favorite things to be a part of because healing happens in
42:38
community. There's just something different
42:40
that happens when you're in person with other women who
42:44
maybe your stories aren't exactly the same, but there's a
42:47
mutual understanding and a safety that is created by being
42:51
in a common community. So if this sounds like something
42:54
that would be beneficial to you, please check the show notes,
42:57
reach out to our office to get more information, and come see
43:01
us in Utah on April 23rd through 26th.
43:04
We'd love to have you join us. Hey, thanks for joining us
43:09
today. If this is something that you
43:11
connected with, I'd love to meet with you more and talk about it.
43:14
So what you can do is go to chooserecoveryservices.com or
43:18
check the show notes and there what we can do is set up a quick
43:21
conversation we need. Thanks so much for listening to
43:23
Beyond the Facade where we unmask the offline itself.