Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / What Happened to Religious Zionism? Tomer Persico on Fundamentalism, Power, and Jewish Extremism
Transcript
- Tomer Persico: the liberal camp in Israel has reclaimed the flag in the judicial overhaul demonstrations it has reclaimed patriotism, the flag, the love of country and understanding that without the country and without its democratic institutions, we're lost, right? And in the same way, I think many liberals in Israel understand that they have to reclaim Judaism as well. They have to take Judaism for their own and say, Ben Gvir and Smotra, yeah, I mean, they're Jews and they display some sort of Judaism, but it's a rotten Judaism. They take the worst parts of Judaism and we are taking the good parts of our tradition which of course there are many of, and we are actually no less and perhaps even more authentic Jews that are continuing our tradition in the direction of liberalism and humanism. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, Welcome back to the Ploys podcast from both sides of the ocean. of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberger, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and Director of ARTSA. Orly, great to be with you. Shana Tova. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, how was your your hug? How was your the beginning of the new year? Josh Weinberg: It was good. It was lovely. Lots of time with family, lots of meals, some inspiring dress-out I heard from synagogue. Even my own daughter read Torah for the family service. So that was nice. Orly Erez Likhovski: Nice. That's amazing. And Yom Kippur, you're leading again a service for Israelis, right? Josh Weinberg: I am doing an Israeli service in Brooklyn as the great Rabbi Ehud Bani says, Brooklyn Shalmala. You know, as we say, the higher Brooklyn. So we're working on that right now and hopefully it'll be good. And I even got to hold court in a bakery as I was buying my halot and I was weaving between a messianic Jew who was asking me randomly my perspectives on Isaiah chapter 53. And another woman who came back and said, I just have some questions about Israel. Could you, as we're holding up the entire line, ba'in halot, an'er v'rosh shana. And I Tomer Persico: Al Regel Ahar. Josh Weinberg: was like, this is like a Jewish Seinfeld. this is a, it was really, it was really something, so it was good. How about you? It was good. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, completely. yeah, I've had a really great holiday, inspiring service. And yeah, this was really great. But we are really now obviously at a very special and challenging time in the Jewish calendar, right? Right after Rosh Hashanah, the Yomim Nuraim, in the middle of the 10 days of repentance. And I think, all of us every year. are trying to think and reflect what we have done wrong as individuals, as societies, and to see what we need to fix. And I think, we obviously have plenty of the things we need to fix and because so many terrible things have really happened over the last few years, especially the last year. And I think one of the things that is on my mind constantly and especially during this time is the... really the normalization and legitimization of racism in Israeli society, of religious extremism, of siletry and its different representations, and the fact that they're being done in the name of Judaism. And so I think we wanted to really have this episode this time, right, between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur to talk about this, about religious extremism, how we got here, what went wrong, what is the responsibility of the larger community. And what is the path ahead toward a better year? Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, and sometimes we feel like we've never seen situations like this before in our lives. However, we are, as a reminder, recording today on the fast of Gedalia, right? So, Gedalia, which we know in ancient times, just after the Babylonian temple was destroyed, the famous, I guess he was more like a governor, Gedalia Ben Echikam, was appointed by, of course, Nebuchadnezzar to govern over Yehuda, over Judea. And he was assassinated, of course, by this guy, Ishmael Ben Netanya, which we think happened on or around Rosh Hashanah. Maybe it was a political or conspiratorial assassination. But, you know, we can probably contribute it to or attribute it to religious zealously and extremism. And, you we think if we have a fast day for that, then, you know, for what happened then, what would it be like to to look at the religious extremism, zealotry? the gelantism that's going on right now. And I think that really, you know, no better person to talk to about this than our good friend, Dr. Tomer Persikko, who has joined us. Tomer, really, you know, welcome. It's wonderful to be with you. And we Tomer Persico: Thank you. Josh Weinberg: want to explore. Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you. And we want to understand really the ideology behind what many are hearing in the headlines or on seeing on their social media feeds. about this violence and how, as liberal Jews, we approach this and how we want to deal with that. Of course, I would be remiss if we didn't remind everyone to take this moment to make a high holiday donation, to say, if you want to support the work that we're doing right now, the work of IRAC, the work of us, the URJ here in North America, to take a minute, maybe even sponsor a podcast. And we'll say something more about that in the end. So let's get right into it. Orly, do you want to introduce our guest? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, let me just introduce Tomer. Dr. Tomer Persikó is a senior fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute and a senior research scholar at HUC Berkeley Center for Middle Eastern Studies. His work focuses on the liberal order and contemporary Jewish identity, spirituality and Jewish fundamentalism. He's the author of several books, including Liberalism, Its Roots, Values and Crisis, and most recently, In God's Image, How Western Civilization was Shaped by a Revolutionary Idea. He has also written extensively on Israeli society, religion, and politics for publications, including the Haaretz and the Washington Post. Tomer, thank you so much for everything you do, for your important voice, and for being with us today. Tomer Persico: Thank you, thank you for having me. Really a pleasure. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, my place, yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: And I do recommend everyone subscribing to Thuner's Substack, where you can get the long form essay there. Tomer Persico: It's quite new, quite new. Yeah, some nice articles there. Thank you. Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay, so yeah, let's start with talking a little bit about Yom Kippur and I want to ask you, beginning with a personal level, so as we approach Yom Kippur this year, specifically after everything we've been through, what are you personally wrestling with and what do you think Israeli society needs to reckon with right now? That's a small, light question. Tomer Persico: yeah. But we have an hour, we? Because Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm Tomer Persico: only an hour. I mean, you know, I think really, I'll take something that, from what you said at the beginning, Oli, that there's so much normalization of racism, of kahanism, of religious extremism right now in Israel. I think Judaism right now, It's more than a crisis. I think we are in a tragedy really ever since the Gaza war certainly And and we have much to do has one message about much to do a reckoning about We need to talk we need to Understand what happened in Gaza and as as just said there are things happening in Israeli society that are very worrying So as a Jew, I'm certainly taking this time to reflect on the dire situation that we're in, the, at times even ugly situation. It's just so unfortunate to take this amazing culture that we have, amazing civilization that we've formed and turn it into, narrow it down into a few racist principles like Itamar Ben-Gvir would do. And this, I mean, this is something that I think we all need to to reflect upon. But I will say also one more thing. I was just writing something in my ex account and Facebook account on NASA on the new film about Israel's calculations of collateral damage during the Gaza war and saying how Josh Weinberg: To America, can we Tomer Persico: You know, that the... Josh Weinberg: just explain, Naz, a little bit to our leaders that that was the movie by, you know, the one in the Venice Film Festival Tomer Persico: what's Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, they won. Tomer Persico: It's a new movie by Yuval Avraham and Rachel Short that has just gotten like a record breaking standing ovation and some sort of award Josh Weinberg: like 25 minutes or something like that. was, yeah. Tomer Persico: in the Venice Film Festival and it's slotted in circles that don't adore Israel too much, let's say, right? And I was writing how the creators want to... want to stick the blame of genocide on Israel, which I think is completely false and I think it's blood libel basically. And so I was writing against that and even as I'm writing against that, I know that Israel, while not committing genocide, has committed grave war crimes in Gaza, very serious atrocities that our government, that our country, has committed in Gaza and it's always this conflict while rejecting anti-Semitic libels also to give space and not to comfort Israelis too much in thinking that we're, as we like to say, the most moral army in the world, right? Because things have happened which really, again, we need to reflect upon. And some sort of recollection will have to happen, I think, in the next few years. Perhaps when this war is officially over and people are able to open up to some sort of a Cheshbon Nesvish. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think, Tomé, you're touching on obviously the importance of words, the choice of words and the lack of complex and nuanced arguments about Israel, Palestine, about what happened in Gaza. And I think a lot of North American Jews are grappling with that, because obviously they have a lot of criticism, as we do have, about what the Israeli government has done, but obviously they don't want it to be played by... the enemies of Israel or people who think Israel has no right to exist. So Josh, maybe you want to say something about that because I think that's really on the minds of lot of liberal Jews in the States. Josh Weinberg: Well, yeah, no, think you touched on that absolutely. know, Tomer, you've written extensively about liberalism, what it means to be liberal. So where do you see liberal Israelis or even liberal Jews who live abroad, you know, in this position trying to grapple with that, know, where everything's been reduced to black and white, either, you know, your for us or against us, to quote a former, you know, U.S. president? Yeah. Tomer Persico: It's I think it's even worse than for against us I think we liberals Josh Weinberg: Mm. Tomer Persico: are having it the hardest because we are We need to argue with both sides if you're an anti-zionist left to a radical left Jew no problem, right Israel is the Supreme culprit it's evil. It needs to be this man. No problem, right if Josh Weinberg: or the ultimate evil of... yeah. Tomer Persico: you're you know right-wing extremists also no problem, right? Israel is right, they are wrong, we're the good guys, they're no problem. We are the people who on the one hand need to grapple with the harsh reality that things didn't go always as we'd like them to go, that racism is rampant today in many circles of the Israeli society, that Israel has committed war crimes in the Gaza war. And on the other hand, of course, to still totally maintain that Israel has a right to exist, that it needs to rebuild its democratic and liberal ethos and institutions. And that's also possible and should be done. And we need the strength to do it, the motivation to do it, and the hope that it can be done. So we need to hold all that together. And of course, being attacked from Josh Weinberg: you Tomer Persico: both sides. Orly Erez Likhovski: Bye. Tomer Persico: As I know from my own social media, I'm always, both the right and the extreme left are at me. Josh Weinberg: Yes, I can identify with that position getting it from both the left and the right as we try to make that, you know, that that middle ground and we have to, you know, prove to the left that we're liberals and prove to the right that we're Zionists. And and I feel like sometimes it's just it's just unproductive, you know, and how do we how do do that? I think it looks very differently from abroad than it does within Israel. Right. As many of my liberal friends, you know, Tomer Persico: Of course. Josh Weinberg: and I talked to, you know, they They still show up for Miluim and they still show up, you know, to participate actively in society. And Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: it's a big story. let's maybe, Orly, let's dive a little bit into this whole concept of what we're facing with the notion of religious Zionism. I don't love the word extremism, but it's, you know, for intents and purposes, we can use it. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, but before that, just want to ask Tomer, you know, we really were obviously approaching elections in both countries, but I'm talking about the Israeli elections and with, you know, a great hope for a real change, definitely on those issues as well. And what I keep. being asked and thinking to myself is if there is political change, how is it going to affect how Israel is perceived, right? By people who criticize Israel from outside of Israel. Tomer Persico: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Obviously, it's not going to be right, a magic solution. But I wonder how you're seeing this and how this really are terrible situation, how people perceive us, sometimes justly so, sometimes not so much. How can it be reversible and how quick can it be reversed? Tomer Persico: I mean, yeah, thank you. I mean, I think there is two stages to this. First, a real political change. So another government, not Netanyahu as prime minister. I think Netanyahu today is one of the most poisonous, venomous names in world politics. The amount Josh Weinberg: Mm. Tomer Persico: of hate he raises in people is unimaginable. So first of all, not him. And also, pragmatically, he's a bad leader. He's not good for Israel. He's not an honest person. You know. to say, to put it mildly, we need something else. And I think the minute something else will be there, there's going to be a change, least in the winds, at least in the Orly Erez Likhovski: you Tomer Persico: atmosphere that Israel will draw. But that's not gonna be enough. And I think Israel will have to change its policy and its regional strategy in a very deep way. We're going to have to get to some sort of road towards an arrangement, towards some sort of final arrangement with the Palestinians. At least we are going to have to be able to talk about it and to start walking that path. It's not going to work. Israel is not going to recover internationally if the political side changes. There's another government, but the policy doesn't change. Two million people in Gaza are still in tents. and the Jewish terrorism is still rampant in the West Bank. So there's going to be a big change. Fortunately, by the way, I believe Trump is going to pressure us towards that. And Europe is certainly going to pressure us towards that. So I'm a bit optimistic about the next government actually doing something to... to better things strategically and Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Tomer Persico: geopolitically. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I agree with your optimism, but I think we also should address obviously the deep processes of Israeli society. And this goes back to what Josh has referred Tomer Persico: for sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: to, to talk about religious Zionism and where it Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: is today, right? And the deep change, the extreme change that religious Zionism has gone through and the fact that it has control of so many important sectors and platforms in Israeli society, and therefore it has deep impact. So maybe you can walk us through that. Tomer Persico: Okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: or the transformation of religious Zionism. Tomer Persico: Yeah, and I think the first thing we need to start with is what you said just now. How religious Zionism holds so much power. Religious Zionism really is about 12, 13 % of the Jewish population in Israel, right? That's all. But it is a, what we call in Hebrew, a serving elite. It's a elite as in very educated, high, middle-class, high middle-class people. Orly Erez Likhovski: and committed, very committed. Tomer Persico: very committed, very motivated, very ideological. They know what they want Josh Weinberg: Mm. Tomer Persico: and they're acting to get what they want. And that makes them, and they're willing to sacrifice. And this needs to be remembered. They're a serving elite also in the battlefield. They're a percentage of philosophy. People that have died from religious Zionism is much more than their percentage in the Jewish population in Israel. And you have to give them credit for that. They are there. right, when needed. And they are also everywhere in the public sector and in government, et cetera. And here is where we're starting to get at the problem because most of religious Zionism, mainstream religious Zionism, would say, let's say 65 % of religious Zionism, they're very right wing, they're very pro settlement, they don't want a Palestinian state. And of course we have a great disagreement with them on that. But They're bourgeois, middle class people living in their very nice houses in Raanana and Katachikva and Givatsmul and Efrat and Alon Shvut, right? And they're doing Josh Weinberg: working in high tech and yeah. Tomer Persico: high tech and they're doing law and they're doing accounting, whatever, right? if we want to talk about the shift with them, they are not the major, the problem that we have. In fact, I see them. as our left-wing liberal Zionists future partners. But I agree orally with what you said that a change has been, they have been going through a change over the last few years. And what happened is that right now for the last four years in politics, they have been represented by the most extreme part of their public. So about 20 % of religious Zionism is extremist. I would simply say, use the word fundamentalist. fundamentalist religious Zionism, which includes what we call the Chagdal, the Haredi nationalists or the ultra-orthodox nationalists. These are religious Zionists who have taken upon themselves the worldview of the ultra-orthodox meaning not only being super strict about observance of the halacha, but also rejecting modern values such as universal humanism, feminism, the liberal order, human rights discourse. They're suspicious of those in the best scenario and totally reject them in the worst scenario. So Josh Weinberg: Mm. Tomer Persico: these are the major part of fundamentalist religious Zionism. And then you have also with Ben-Gvir the Kahanist religious Zionism, right? We have people following the teachings of Meir Kahana, the ultra racist that was a parliament member in the 1980s until he's do. path to parliament was blocked by legislation that the parliament, that the Knesset passed for not allowing racists, people who advocate for racism to enter parliament, to be elected. We've got them and we've got two more groups that I'll mention, the Temple activists, Temple Mount activists, people who ascend the Temple Mount. in, sorry, people who ascend the Temple Mount in spite of 90 something percent of major rabbis over the last few hundred years forbidding Jews to ascend the Temple Mount. These are people who want to build the third temple, different levels of extremism with them. Not all of them want to demolish the Dome of the Rock tomorrow, but it's also there. And finally, we have the hilltop youth. We have these groups, a few thousands, maybe tens of thousands, if we talk about the wider circle of usually young people, 20s, 30s, and even younger, who run amok as militias in the West Bank and impose terrorist Orly Erez Likhovski: as terrorists, they Jewish terrorists for all intents and purposes. Tomer Persico: activity on the Palestinians and... I will say, unfortunately, engage over the last few years in ethnic cleansing of a few dozen small Palestinian and Bedouin communities, mostly in the Jordan Valley. So that's happening now. And these people are getting support from the likes of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in government. That's our major problem. Orly Erez Likhovski: But it's not only that, Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: right? I mean, I think the problem is that, like you said, it's like a few thousands people, I think at the most. And the problem is what is the reaction of the prominent community of religious Zionists? And I just Tomer Persico: Yeah, Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: read you posted a post on Facebook referring to a piece in Makor Ishon, right? That was just this weekend calling the Hilltop Youth. pure, moral and just and the people who are just leading the way for us and actually legitimizing, stealing from Palestinians. And these are things that are being voiced by prominent religious Zionists, right? Not by hilltop youth. Tomer Persico: This is one of the most blatant examples of justifying and purifying these terrorists. In the cultural section of the religious Zionist paper, Makor Ishon, you've got this article by this person who says, I'm going to defend, I'm going to give you a defense of the Hilltop youth, which are pure, which are moral. And in that same article, it says there's a testimony of one of them. He interviews them. And this person says, yes, sometimes we steal from Palestinians. We steal from their houses. And then you have to notice how do you feel after you steal property from someone else? This is actually like in the cultural section of the paper. So I was posting that. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and you said Josh Weinberg: So. Orly Erez Likhovski: that he's being asked, this hilltop youth guy, are you aware that your actions could corrupt your character and your soul? And he says, of course, but what wouldn't I do for the Jewish people? And this is sort of considered as a legitimate answer. I it's like a complete loss of Josh Weinberg: or for the land. Orly Erez Likhovski: any moral obligation whatsoever. Tomer Persico: And here, Josh Weinberg: But, to, yeah, Tomer Persico: and to zoom out, just let me zoom out, Josh Weinberg: I want to take a step back. Yeah, yeah. Tomer Persico: and this is the problem right now, because we've had four years of such people's political leadership, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, Limor, Sunah, and Melech, Stroke, these people, and they've pulled the majority or the mainstream of religious Zionism in their direction. Of course, the war has also contributed to this. You know, you're in a trauma, you're mad at the Palestinians, you're afraid that something like that could happen again. And this also gives you an excuse to become much more extreme. So all this has happened over the last few years. And I don't think it's not reversible for the majority, for the mainstream of religious Zionism. But the first thing we have to do, coming back to politics, is get these people out of office. Get Smotrich and Ben-Gavir not to hold any political power in Israel. Josh Weinberg: think we can all say I'm into that and we're trying to encourage, especially Israelis from abroad to go and vote. And that was also a controversial concept in McCurley-Shon. But Tomer, can we take a step back a little bit? I think you've written, and first of all, your explanations are very, very helpful, I think, to our audience. And I wanna go a little bit deeper and to ask you to explain some of the theology behind this, because... You know, it used to be that the religious Zionists would say something like, you know, the state of Israel is a reshitz mihat-geul-latino, you know, the beginning of the flowering of our redemption or the budding of our redemption. really to see the state as having a, you know, a critical theological role as well, you know, stemming from originally Rav Kuk and going on. so how do we understand what seems to be a kind of a total contradiction of that where they see themselves against the state or sometimes in cahoots with the state, whether it's the military or the police or members of the government that you mentioned. And how are we to even understand this? The examples that you brought up about, I can say stealing pretty clearly against the Torah. You don't have to Tomer Persico: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: be a great scholar to figure out that that's not, or, Tomer Persico: It's a commandment. Josh Weinberg: yeah. and looting a Palestinian village on Shabbat, know, Mele. So when we look at people, when we say these people are kippah wearing long peyot, know, ostensibly observant of mitzvot, how do we make sense of all of this? And I think this is what's really baffling so many people. Is it just, you know, a facade or a ruse or, you know, something that, yeah, please. Tomer Persico: So here's a brief history of religious Zionism. It begins at the end of the 19th century when a Rabbi, Yitzhak Yaakov-Reyness joins hands with Herzl and as an Orthodox Jew, which was at the time scandalous, becomes a Zionist and from him we got the Mizrahi movement and the Mizrahi phase of religious Zionism, which basically is a very dovish, moderate, left-wing, sometimes more left than the Labor Party that established the state of Israel. And this goes on until the early 70s, right? This Mizrahi phase of religious Zionism, which we won't go into because it's not relevant today. After the 67 war, after the Six-Day War, which is considered a great miracle and the hand of God and a new generation. of religious Zionists that have been born in Israel and they haven't experienced the Holocaust and haven't experienced being a minority ever. They come into play and they come into power and they push away the old generation and they take over religious Zionist politics and they in large part are followers of Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kuk. Tzvi Yehuda Cook is the son Josh Weinberg: you Tomer Persico: of Abraham Yitzhak Kakoen Cook, the first chief rabbi of Israel, died in 1935, but left us a very large body of brilliant theology explaining how the state of Israel, as you said, is the seat of God on earth. And that Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Tomer Persico: even though that secular socialist atheists founded the state, it is actually the will of God and they have actually begun the wheel began turning the wheel of redemption. So they see the 67 war as a great Josh Weinberg: And Sviahutu Cook gave an important speech in May of 1967 that led, you know, yeah, yeah, that. Tomer Persico: Right, right. Just before the war, he gave a speech, where is our Hebron? Where is our Bethlehem? How can it be that we don't have them? And here we have them. So he's also a prophet. That's great, right? And Josh Weinberg: that is seen as prophecy. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Tomer Persico: in Cookeism, if we call it that, right, we've got the Mizrahi, then we've got Cookeism. In Cookeism, the more that people of Israel settle on the land of Israel, the more redemption is, the closer redemption is. That's the basic understanding. And with one more condition, this is irreversible. It's a deterministic process that has to end in redemption and it can't be turned back. So in 67, they awake. In the early 70s, they take over religious Zionist politics. And this cookist worldview basically holds on till 2005. It comes into its first crisis in the withdrawal from the Sinai with the peace process with Egypt, the peace agreement with Egypt, 82. Another crisis was the Oslo process, withdrawal of Israel from the central cities of the West Bank and Gaza. Another crisis is the 2000 withdrawal from the south of Lebanon because south of Lebanon is the Holy Land, right? It's the... Josh Weinberg: haha Tomer Persico: Naftaliyeh Nasher tribe, and Nakhlote, how do you say Nakhlote in English? It's the plots, yeah, inheritance. Josh Weinberg: their divine inheritance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Tomer Persico: And then a final blow in the 2005 disengagement from Gaza, what we call the hit Natkut, when 20 something settlements get uprooted and 8,000 people get basically forcedfully moved out of their home. And this for them, and here is the point. This for them, on the one hand, shatters the Cuccus promise that the process is irreversible, but on the other hand also shatters their faith in the state. The state has turned against Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Tomer Persico: them. They now know that the state that they have held as holy can do what they think is the worst thing possible, uprooting Jews from the land of Israel and, as it were, delaying redemption. And so since 2005, we've got this fracture in religious Zionism in which religious Zionism has just blown up and flown into different directions. And we've got liberal religious Zionism, we've got feminist religious Zionism, we've got out of the closet LGBT religious Zionism, we do. And we have also the extremists and the temple activists and the fundamentalists and the kahanists. And Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, but. Tomer Persico: at this time, the kahanists are in power. Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, but Toma, I think we should mention that you say some of them are obviously against the state because of the disengagement scene, but in contrary to the kharadim, they see themselves as a major part of the state and they want to change it from within, right? I mean, that's sort of the mainstream of religious Zionism. That Tomer Persico: Of course. Of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: hasn't changed, right? So in this sense, I think a fraction of them, obviously, hilltop youth think they do not obey anything the state is saying, they know better. The religious mainstream Zionism is, you know, still believes they are part of the state. And the problem is that they actually Tomer Persico: yeah. So there are a few. Orly Erez Likhovski: allow this to happen, right? And allow this to be, yeah, out of control. Josh Weinberg: Well, I know I have a good example, but even before the elections in 22, I was chatting with my friend Rabbi Doron Peretz, who is the head of World Mizrachi, as you explained to us Mizrachi. And I said, you know, who, who are you voting for? And, and he said, you know, my people have a big problem right now. And he used, he used the rhyming scheme where he said, you know, we go right now from Rav Lao to Rav Tao. which he referred to Rabbi Benny Lau, who's on the sort left-wing liberal side of religious iron to Rabbi Tzvi Tau, who was on the fundamentalist, know, switch-rich Tomer Persico: Right. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: type, you know, and he said, we're almost politically homo, you know, we don't know. And it was really hard to just, you know, small anecdote there, but please, you know. Tomer Persico: Yeah, So I totally agree with you, Orly, there are a few different shades or different directions in the relationship with the state of Israel. Mainstream religious Zionism still very much loves the state, thinks it's holy, it has its suspicion, it has its problems, but it's very faithful and loyal and wants to continue with the state. The Hilltop youth, on the other hand, these extremists not only don't think the state is holy, they think the state is illegitimate. They want to dismantle the state and indeed hurt the state until it crumbles down, at which time they will build the halakhic, theocratic, Torah state on its ruins. That's the hilltop youth. The kahanists also don't think the state is very holy. Kahane himself thought the state is illegitimate because it was built by secular people and he didn't buy into the... Cookist explanation how they were doing the will of God So you've got all these forces that are coming up that are suspicious of the state if not worse, right? And you've got different shades Smut rich for example his relationship with the state is positive. He thinks the state is needed and is important But again, he's much more suspicious. thinks the legal, the judicial system is corrupt and needs to be reformed. He thinks that the political system perhaps is not working well and he wants to change, you know, he wants to have different laws about the separation of powers, et cetera. So he will say the state is important, but he will want to change it and... and rectified in ways that he thinks are better. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I think it brings me back to the point that how is it possible that the really terrible, terrible things we're seeing these days in the West Bank by Jewish terrorism against Palestinians is being tolerated by a large community? And we should mention to our listeners that not only these people have political power, but we see a lot of religious scientists on media, traditional media. We see them in... The legal system, we see them in school, in the Israel's educational system. We have a whole educational stream, which is the religious system, religious public school system, which teaches to different values that, of course, public, secular educational system is not allowed to teach democracy and human rights. This is sort of a taboo. So we see all of those outlets that actually educate through those values. And this is like another source of power. But then again, the question is how is it possible and how can we reverse it? The question is whether if we do have a political change, does it mean that those deep processes and the acceptance of this by the larger religious minus community can change? Because like for me, accepting this in the name of Judaism is troubling. Josh Weinberg: And even more than that is that a couple of weeks ago or a few weeks ago when we were watching the siege on the Palestinian village of Kusra, the news reports said, sorry, the army wasn't able to remove them. I was like, what? What do you mean the army wasn't able to remove Tomer Persico: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: them? The army can do anything it wants. Like, really? You know... Tomer Persico: Imagine a group of Palestinians laying siege Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, Tomer Persico: on a settlement. Will the army Orly Erez Likhovski: of course, of course. Tomer Persico: not be able to remove them? Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And Orly Erez Likhovski: of course. Josh Weinberg: I said, you know, and so we used to always say, you know, instead of saying can or cannot, you say, you know, will not. And so I think that plays into what early was saying very much into, yeah. Tomer Persico: No, so I think one of the biggest challenges facing the next government, if indeed it won't be a Netanyahu government, will be dealing with these hilltop youth terrorists in the West Bank. And I think one of the biggest questions will be whether they will be able to exert enough force to dismantle these militias, because I can almost promise you shots will be fired. These people won't go peacefully down, right? They will not be disarmed peacefully. So this will be an unbelievable challenge. And it's a great question if they will be able to do it. And if they won't, we're lost, right? If the state of Israel cannot assert its sovereignty over all the territory that it controls, basically we're done, right? It's and really a question that must be asked is How far have we gone in arming because this government that's what it did in arming and and and and maintaining these groups of terrorists and and I mean Have we reached some point? In which you know the point of no return in which? it's just impossible to deal with them in any normal government. I don't know the answer to that. I don't think we're Josh Weinberg: Yeah. I mean, Tomer Persico: that far off, but it remains to be seen. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, it could lead to civil war. I can't help but making the comparison to the big news item of a few weeks ago where they found the ship, the Alta Laina. You know, I was thinking about that very much. You know, of course, the Alta Laina was a ship of the Irgun of, you know, Begans underground militia that brought in munitions and Ben-Gurion ended up, you know, firing, killing 16 people, you know, and then the ship was dragged out to sea and sunk. And they just found it conveniently, you know, two months Orly Erez Likhovski: You Josh Weinberg: before the elections. Tomer Persico: yeah. Josh Weinberg: And pardon my skepticism and you know. Tomer Persico: No, no, skepticism is totally in place, of course. Josh Weinberg: Yes, and do you see a comparison there in terms of is the state going to have to clamp down on this at the risk of Jew on Jew violence that? Yeah. Tomer Persico: Yeah, I mean, this is in principle, it's the same situation. There is a militia that does what it wants. It's armed. It's it sometimes is violent, violent against IDF soldiers. Right. And it needs to be put in place. It needs to be disarmed and disbanded. And Ben Gurion could do it. And and and and and the IDF basically shot them down and they killed three IDF soldiers. Right. They are going then must be remembered. And that is exactly the standoff that we're going to see in the West Bank. And again, the question is, will the next government be resolute enough to do it? Orly Erez Likhovski: So I think we should mention that obviously that the leaders of liberal camp have not been strong enough in general in dealing with racism and talking about the rights of Palestinians. But I do think that they are definitely concerned by the violence in the West Bank, Tomer Persico: Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: maybe not because of the moral reasons, but also because it could really create a third intifada. And I do believe that there could be change. And we should also mention that while a lot of Israelis do not deal with Jewish terror in the West Bank, it is in the headlines and most Israelis are against it, right? So we should mention this, that it is not supported by the mainstream of Israeli society. Yeah. Tomer Persico: yeah, of course. No, no, this, yeah. No, this is a problem that is disturbing for most Israelis. They don't like it. It's not something that we like to see. And again, these people from time to time are violent against the IDF. They're violent against the police. They're violent people and they're, they're lawless. And, and, everybody understands even in a gut, at a gut level that the state can't have these militias running around. doing whatever they want, killing people, looting, et cetera. So it's a big problem. And again, and thank you, Orly, for mentioning this. The vast majority of the Israeli public is not OK with this. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Josh, yeah. Josh Weinberg: It's yeah, I know it's it's really important to emphasize because you know We like to say this is not Zionism and this is not you know, what? Israel is about which in in Israel that may be obvious but Abroad that is something that we constantly need to remind everyone, you know Yeah Tomer Persico: No, I can't, you know. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and also I just want to mention that the fact that it's being done from a Jewish standpoint, I think really creates responsibility Josh Weinberg: Sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: for any person who believes this is not Judaism Tomer Persico: course. Orly Erez Likhovski: to raise a voice against. And I should say that, of course, the URJ has been talking about Palestinian rights for many years, but I should say that the Israeli Reform Movement has been... publishing public statements against this and the fact that it contradicts the Josh Weinberg: Sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: basic values of Judaism. And I think even if we have a new government, it would be important to back them and to continue to say this. This should not be allowed not in a democratic state and not in a Jewish Tomer Persico: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: state. Tomer Persico: By the way, one good thing that the Jewish communities abroad in Europe and the United States did over the last few years is refuse to accept for visits, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, right? Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tomer Persico: And this ban is very important. These people should not be legitimate or legitimized by Jewish communities abroad. They're illegitimate. They're Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. Tomer Persico: racist, they're violent, they're fundamentalists. And this... Taking the stand and saying, you are not welcome is very important for also for Israelis to understand this is not legitimate Judaism. This spin-off mutation of violent fundamentalist murderers at times, Judaism is just not legitimate. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Right. we can accept that when, you know, it was just, of course, the 25th anniversary of September 11th, you know, 2001. And, you know, we made great efforts to say Islamic terrorism is not Islam. Right. And that's a question. I think we have to say the same same thing here. But Tomer, you. Tomer Persico: Yeah, of course, this is Jewish fundamentalism. Any fundamentalism takes a certain tradition, narrows it down, makes it extreme, and many times makes it violent. And of course, it's not the whole tradition. It's a fundamentalist variation of it. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And spearheaded by populist leaders, of course. And I do want to recommend, Tomo, your three-part series on this and your substack, I think goes into Tomer Persico: Thank you. Josh Weinberg: greater detail on it, also in terms of the politics, Tomer Persico: on Jewish fundamentalism. Josh Weinberg: yeah, and religious Zionism and the Tomer Persico: Thank you. Josh Weinberg: theology of it, which I found fascinating. But you also put out another piece just recently talking about sort of the opposite end of the spectrum, especially looking at it in North America with the progressive left or the far sort of anti-Zionist communities. And this is another area I think in which liberal Jews or liberal Zionists feel that there has been some breakdown of moral clarity here. You we want to condemn settler violence and racism and all these abuses, but we also encounter spaces where terrorism is excused, where anti-Semitism is, you know, smoothed over in terms of critique of, you know, policies and we're seeing terrorists, you know, seen as resistance or freedom fighters or all of these things, which like, you know, maybe by their own people, you know, if a member of the Hezbollah organization sees Hezbollah as a legitimate organization, fine, but a guitar playing activist on the quad of a North American university to tell the Hezbollah flag is just sort of unbelievable. So help us make sense of this a little bit. And how do you see this both as an Israeli? Tomer Persico: Yeah. This is the question. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Tomer Persico: This is like the riddle that I wanted to solve. How is it that in certain circles of the radical left, Islamist terrorist organizations, fundamentalist Islamist terrorist organizations are taken as liberation movements and even progressive movements, right? Judith Butler. famously said in 2006 that these are progressive movement of the left, right? While again, it's so easy to show that they care nothing about national liberation. They care nothing about freedom, human rights, equality between all people. They want to establish a Sharia state over the whole Middle East, the, know, erase national borders and such. They're just different. It's the different kind of movement. And there are certain circles in the left that see them as progressive. And what I try to show is that the very meaning of progressivism, of being progressive, has changed. The very idea and what once was progressive is no more. Once, for being progressive, you had to show some sort of vision, a vision of a more equitous humanity, of a more... prosperous, equal, free society. Today, all you need to do is be in a certain situation in which you are the downtrodden, the subaltern, the oppressed, the occupied, the colonized, fighting Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Tomer Persico: against a force that is considered a colonizer and oppressor. And that's it. You're progressive, right? You are, as it were, Josh Weinberg: and having all the power, right? Yeah. Tomer Persico: Right, because you're fighting power, you're fighting colonialism, and that just makes you progressive, even if your own charter, your own speeches, your own texts say that you're not fighting for liberal values and you're not fighting for freedom, you're not fighting for equality, you're fighting for Sharia, right? And it's something else. That's one. But another thing that I think needs to be noticed is that the West plays a very important part here. If you're against the West in certain radical left circles, that makes you a hero because the Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Tomer Persico: West is taken as the worst evil possible. It's the capitalist, colonialist, white supremacist, Josh Weinberg: as the white European colonialists or yeah, yeah, yeah. Tomer Persico: patriarch, know, hierarchy, condescending racist, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And we need to topple the American empire or whatever empire that they think is it. So this sort of idea has become entrenched in the radical left. And by the way, this also has a connection to Israel because for the antisemitic part of the radical left, Israel today is taken as the epitome, as the worst case and as the essence of colonialism and capitalism and and imperialism and even patriarchy. Whatever is the most hated, Israel embodies it and resistance to Israel obviously, of course, makes you a great progressive hero and a freedom fighter. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so it's really fascinating and we are really nearing the close of our episode. And I want to ask you, going back to what we talked a little bit about at the beginning and looking ahead, do you think this, know, the thing you just talked about in academic circles, whether it's reversible, talking about political change and in general, and you know, in general, whether you're hopeful for, you know, a positive change in Tomer Persico: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: this specific point of time. Tomer Persico: I'll start with the hope. Josh Weinberg: After all that, yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Tomer Persico: As you said, I also write and research the liberal order. And as we know, the liberal order is now in crisis all over the world, in the United States, obviously in Europe, even in India, et cetera. But I'm optimistic about the liberal order. think liberalism has definitely not said its last word. I think liberalism will recover from this crisis. This crisis is much less severe than the crisis 100 years ago in the liberal order in which we had fascism and communism rise up and try to replace liberalism. And today we don't have such serious robust ideologies that try to replace liberalism. So I'm optimistic about that. Specifically within Israel, the situation is harder because Israel has many foreign enemies that aggravate the specific political pro and against liberal order polemics and struggles that we have in here. So there is a compoundment of problem on problem on problem and they aggravate each other. And it's a much harder situation though, again, to be optimistic about the near future. I am optimistic about the next elections. I think Netanyahu is on his way out. This has been said many, many times and proven wrong, but I am optimistic that this will happen again at this time. And I think we'll have a new government. I hope that this will be the beginning of a process of healing and of rectification because there's no other way in which Israel will remain democratic and liberal. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I want to say to add to that, you know, first amen, and then to say that I think Judaism has an important part to play, liberal Judaism has an important part to play in this process of healing and you know, this what we all of us are trying to do and I think that's a very important coupon. Yeah, go ahead. Tomer Persico: Very much, very much. I'll say something about that. Just as the liberals in Israel, the liberal camp in Israel has reclaimed the flag in the judicial overhaul demonstrations or against the judicial overhaul demonstrations, it has reclaimed patriotism, the flag, the love of country and understanding that without the country and without its democratic institutions, we're lost, right? And in the same way, I think many liberals and many progressives in Israel understand that they have to reclaim Judaism as well. They have to take Judaism for their own and say, Ben Gvir and Smotra, yeah, I mean, they're Jews and they display some sort of Judaism, but it's a rotten Judaism. It's the worst kind of Judaism. They take the worst parts of Judaism and we are taking the good parts of our tradition which of course there are many of, and we are actually no less and perhaps even more authentic Jews that are continuing our tradition in the direction of liberalism and humanism. I think that's what's important, right? That's what's important. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, completely. Yeah, that's what we are specifically trying to do in the Reform Movement, in our initiative, the Reform Network Initiative. Tomer Persico: Of course. Of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: And I think that's a whole issue Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: for a whole other episode that we should have Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: a conversation with you, Tomer, because we have so many things to talk about that we haven't had a chance to do this time. But we want to thank you so much for this and for really your important Tomer Persico: Thank you. Josh Weinberg: Thank you, really. Orly Erez Likhovski: voice that helped us understand these really complex issues, Josh. Yeah, it's... Tomer Persico: Thank you, thank you. Josh Weinberg: No, absolutely. think we're just scratching the surface, but I think this is really helpful for our audience to really internalize some of the big questions and make sense of it all, even though it's not necessarily easy to make sense of. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, for sure. So thank you very much. And conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnerships. So if these conversations are important to you, please share them and help us keep the conversation going. Josh Weinberg: And to stay up Orly Erez Likhovski: Ahem. Josh Weinberg: date, subscribe on YouTube wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, make an engaging post on social media or leave a five-star review. Maybe something like, ahead of listening to the Pluralist podcast, I really wasn't sure what to atone for in Yom Kippur. But now I have a whole long list of things and I'm really helpful. And I'm even optimistic as a liberal Jew that I have a place in this society and in this struggle. You don't have to take that word for word, but something like that, you know, will really help us grow our listenership. send this episode to someone who should be part of the conversation and think about sponsoring episodes for future. That's a great way to get it out there and to make sure that people are hearing these important conversations from really important people. I want to wish everyone a Shana Tova and Kamaal Khatima Tova. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you so much, Tomer. Tomer Persico: Thank you, Janatova. Orly Erez Likhovski: Bye bye.