Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'The Keepers' mystery: Who killed Sister Cathy Cesnick

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'The Keepers' mystery: Who killed Sister Cathy Cesnick · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
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Speaker 1: Channel one two. She was found frozen, mutilated, her face
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Speaker 1: covered in maggots. She a beloved teacher, a nun. Of course,
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Speaker 1: I'm talking about Cathy, says nic Sister Cathy. To this day,
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Speaker 1: her murder unsolved, questions echoing did the Catholic Church cover
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Speaker 1: up this horrific crime on a beautiful young nune? But
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Speaker 1: more important, who murdered sister Kathy? I'm Nancy Grace. This
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Speaker 1: is crime stories and I want answers. Sister Kathy was
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Speaker 1: reported missing when she did not return home to her
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Speaker 1: apartment one evening, the apartment she shared with another nun.
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Speaker 1: She had gone out to buy a gift, as I recall,
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Speaker 1: a wedding gift her sister was getting married. It was
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Speaker 1: Christmas time, everybody was shopping. It was leading up to
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Speaker 1: Christmas anyways, towards the end of November, and it was busy.
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Speaker 1: She went to a local shopping center. And the thing
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Speaker 1: that I know for sure is she went to one
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Speaker 1: of her favorite bakeries. And I believe she made it
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Speaker 1: to the bakery and came out of the bakery and
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Speaker 1: got in her car because a fresh buns. We're still
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Speaker 1: sitting on the seat, the passenger seat up front in
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Speaker 1: her car when her car was finally located, Kathy says
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Speaker 1: nick sister. Katherine says, Nick was beautiful, popular, twenty six
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Speaker 1: year old young nun who had taught at an all
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Speaker 1: girls Catholic school in Baltimore, last seen by her roommate,
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Speaker 1: another young nun, when she took off that evening after
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Speaker 1: she got home November seven, Friday night now Friday night.
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Speaker 1: As I recall with me Jimma Hoskins on the story
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Speaker 1: Shane Waters, private investigator and podcaster, Karen Stark, renowned at
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Speaker 1: New York psychologist and Crime Stories investigative reporter John Limley
2:50
Speaker 1: to Jimma Hoskins, I'm so happy to have you with
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Speaker 1: us as we try to put the pieces together of
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Speaker 1: this puzzle. Um, I'm trying not to thank a sister
3:00
Speaker 1: Kathy being found in that field, her body frozen and
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Speaker 1: mutilated and her face covered in maggots. I'm trying to
3:06
Speaker 1: focus on the night she goes missing. There was a
3:10
Speaker 1: bi monthly ritual where both the girls, both the ladies
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Speaker 1: would get their checks and they would go deposited. And
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Speaker 1: they had gotten their checks that day. I believe the
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Speaker 1: checks were deposited by sister Kathy before she went shopping
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Speaker 1: at the bakery. What what to tell me? You're piecing
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Speaker 1: together the timeline, Jimma Hoskins. Well, thanking Nancy by the
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Speaker 1: way for having me on your program. This is an
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Speaker 1: opportunity for us to keep the attention on the story
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Speaker 1: because it's still a cold case. Our understanding that Kathy
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Speaker 1: came home from school and she had talked to a
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Speaker 1: student that afternoon about going shopping for her sister because
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Speaker 1: her sister, Marilyn was getting married. She was very excited
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Speaker 1: about that. So, as far as we know, she went
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Speaker 1: out probably around seven to seven thirty after having dinner.
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Speaker 1: Um sister Russell was still at the apartment. Cathy traveled
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Speaker 1: not very far and maybe ten minutes to a local
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Speaker 1: shopping center in Baltimore. She did deposit her check. We
4:19
Speaker 1: do know that the money was in the bank, and
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Speaker 1: the receipt for that deposit is in you know, the
4:27
Speaker 1: police have that. We do know that she bought the buns. Now,
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Speaker 1: the bakery was inside a large department store and it
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Speaker 1: was very popular. It had a number of chains around Baltimore.
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Speaker 1: It was named Muley's. And for folks who have seen
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Speaker 1: the Keepers, they will remember that that box of buns
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Speaker 1: was actually on the floor of the passenger seat, and
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Speaker 1: the trash can on the hump, the little the little
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Speaker 1: bucket that we all used to how having her cars
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Speaker 1: was also knocked over to the passenger side, and those
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Speaker 1: crime scene photos are actually in the keepers. Um, it's
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Speaker 1: if I speculate, then everybody in the world will say, well,
5:14
Speaker 1: Gemma knows what happened, And Gemma doesn't know what happened,
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Speaker 1: but I do believe that someone accosted her in the
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Speaker 1: car and possibly forced her over to the passenger seat.
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Speaker 1: I don't know that, but that's what I'm assuming. Well,
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Speaker 1: and it could have been in any way Jemma Hoskins,
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Speaker 1: because we know she cast a two check just before
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Speaker 1: she disappears. It was a routine trip. Either sister Kathy
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Speaker 1: or her roommate made the trip to the bank every
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Speaker 1: other Friday with their paychecks from the city school system.
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Speaker 1: That bakery box was on you're saying, not the front
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Speaker 1: car seat, as I had found, but on the floorboard
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Speaker 1: of the front car seat. And that's significant. It was
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Speaker 1: on the floor. That's significant because you know what it
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Speaker 1: says to me. If it were me and our driving
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Speaker 1: and I wanted to eat something from the bakery, which
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Speaker 1: has happened way too many times, I would have it
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Speaker 1: sitting on the seat, the passenger seat, so I could
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Speaker 1: reach over and get it, not the floorboard. So why
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Speaker 1: did she put it in the floorboard? It actually was
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Speaker 1: still wrapped up. You can see the box. It's tied
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Speaker 1: with cord in both directions. It's not mashed. It's it's
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Speaker 1: you know, intact, and it is on the floor of
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Speaker 1: the passenger side. And that was from hect right H
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Speaker 1: E C H T s um. There was a bakery,
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Speaker 1: Mully's Bakery, within Hex department store, so I believe someone
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Speaker 1: actually saw her there. But we don't need an eyewitness
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Speaker 1: because we know she made it that far. Now Hex Bakery,
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Speaker 1: Muley's Bakery was someone There was someone there following her
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Speaker 1: after she cast her check. Did she ever make it
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Speaker 1: to buy? I didn't she buy a necklace? Is that
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Speaker 1: what she bought for the sister? Well that's what we've assumed.
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Speaker 1: Now in the past year, we have indications that she
7:12
Speaker 1: may not have bought anything. Um. The the police have
7:19
Speaker 1: an interview with someone at the bridal registry and the
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Speaker 1: Heck Company, and it indicates that Kathy was asking questions
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Speaker 1: about how to set up a bridal registry. So we
7:33
Speaker 1: have a question mark about the necklace. We don't know
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Speaker 1: and there was no receipt found or anything in the
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Speaker 1: car that indicated that a gift had been bought. There
7:45
Speaker 1: was no car. Did she still have the money from
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Speaker 1: the cash she either? I think she cast some of
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Speaker 1: the check and what happened to the cash? The cash
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Speaker 1: was not in the car she she cast her chest.
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Speaker 1: So before I said that there was a giant cover
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Speaker 1: up within the archdiocese church where she she had taught
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Speaker 1: for so long Archbishop Kio High School. Before I claim that,
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Speaker 1: I mean, could it have been Gemma that somebody saw
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Speaker 1: her with an expensive necklace she just bought, followed her
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Speaker 1: out so or somebody got her after she cast a
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Speaker 1: check the money was nowhere to be found. Are those
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Speaker 1: viable options or no? Just I don't have a dog
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Speaker 1: in the fight. I just want the truth. Um, both
8:31
Speaker 1: are possible. We did have the necklace analyzed by a
8:35
Speaker 1: gemologist at a story store um last year and he
8:41
Speaker 1: indicated that it was probably one of a number of
8:48
Speaker 1: necklaces that were made more as a novelty for birth stones,
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Speaker 1: and he said at that time, in nineteen sixty nine,
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Speaker 1: it was probably worth about fifty dollars, so it wouldn't
9:02
Speaker 1: have been high end jewelry, but fifteen dollars to a
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Speaker 1: teacher who's making two and fifty dollars every two weeks
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Speaker 1: would be a lot of money, so we're not sure
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Speaker 1: about that. Of course, it's possible that someone may have
9:17
Speaker 1: seen her deposit the check. We also know that a
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Speaker 1: young girl from Archbishop Kio was near the bank in
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Speaker 1: the parking lot with her mom and they talked to
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Speaker 1: sister Cathy in the parking lot, and the police have
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Speaker 1: their interview, So we don't know if that was as
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Speaker 1: she was leaving to return home or to go across
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Speaker 1: the street to the hack company, or if it was
9:43
Speaker 1: when she was going into the bank with me. Also
9:46
Speaker 1: is Shane Waters, private investigator, and podcasts are also on
9:49
Speaker 1: the story. The other monster rearing its head in this
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Speaker 1: scenario is a series of claims made which I believe,
10:02
Speaker 1: I'll just put it out there. I believe these women
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Speaker 1: regarding sex abuse with art within Archbishop Kio High School
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Speaker 1: by one of the fathers. Joseph Mascow, what what do
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Speaker 1: you know, Shane, Well, Nancy, I will say I also
10:23
Speaker 1: believe these women, and since the Netflix documentary aired, several
10:28
Speaker 1: more of them came forward. So when when I look
10:32
Speaker 1: at this case, there's there's a few different angles. It's
10:35
Speaker 1: almost like a few different fronts. There's this abuse that's happening.
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Speaker 1: I believe that it happened and the church covered it up.
10:45
Speaker 1: When I look at this case, I also see the
10:48
Speaker 1: similarities between the Church of Baltimore and the mafia. And
10:54
Speaker 1: I say that because the mafia we know has influenced,
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Speaker 1: they have money and people are scared of them, and
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Speaker 1: it seems like that's what these women were facing at
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Speaker 1: that time as well. Not only was it the mafia present,
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Speaker 1: but they also were afraid of the faith. The faith
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Speaker 1: element as well. You know, my family is very religious,
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Speaker 1: They're not Catholic, but I think if I were to
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Speaker 1: ever approach someone and say that I was being abused
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Speaker 1: by someone from the church, that puts a lot of
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Speaker 1: question in my family's faith. And unfortunately, that was what
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Speaker 1: these women were all facing at that time. Um. Also,
11:33
Speaker 1: when I'm looking at this case, just as an overhead,
11:37
Speaker 1: we can. It's it's easy to wonder if Cathy was robbed.
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Speaker 1: We see people being robbed all the time, and they don't.
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Speaker 1: They don't end up in the same faith that Cathy
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Speaker 1: ended up. So the question, the big question here is
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Speaker 1: are these events related? And I mean it's it's crazy.
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Speaker 1: All of these women that were abused, they will tell
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Speaker 1: you we think that this was related. Because of course,
12:03
Speaker 1: prior to sister Cathy being being murdered, she was saying
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Speaker 1: that she was going to confront these people who are
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Speaker 1: abusing And it's not that she was just going to
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Speaker 1: be confronting Father Mascal. She's confronting this this church that
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Speaker 1: that we know protected him and they are willing to
12:21
Speaker 1: put theirselves and their money on the line to protect him.
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Speaker 1: So when when you come up with this scenario, what
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Speaker 1: are they willing to do to ensure that they not
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Speaker 1: only continue to protect this monster, but to protect themselves
12:38
Speaker 1: because now they're they're they've dug a hole where they've
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Speaker 1: protected him for so many years. You know, anytime abuse
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Speaker 1: would come up against him, they would move him to
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Speaker 1: a different place, or they would send him to a
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Speaker 1: facility where they would try to help him or try
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Speaker 1: to get try to try to stray him in a
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Speaker 1: different direction. But after so long, you know, if if
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Speaker 1: if Mr Cathy would have came out at that time
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Speaker 1: and made a big noise against them, that's a lot
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Speaker 1: of people with a lot of money and a lot
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Speaker 1: of influence that would have gone down. And I don't
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Speaker 1: see that them being willing to what that happened to
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Speaker 1: Shane waters Uh and Jimma Hoskins. The big question is
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Speaker 1: while Sister Cathy, we don't have evidence that she was
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Speaker 1: molested by the priest A Joseph Maskell, she seemingly knew
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Speaker 1: all about rampant molestation sex molestation in the Catholic school
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Speaker 1: Archbishop Kio High School. In fact, isn't it true Jimma
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Speaker 1: Hoskins that she quote ran interference for one of his
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Speaker 1: molestation victims that didn't want to see him or encounter him.
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Speaker 1: What a horrible, horrible position to be in as a
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Speaker 1: young girl being raped and molested over and over and
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Speaker 1: over at school by the person that when you're in
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Speaker 1: confession you're literally speaking to God and you have to
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Speaker 1: see the person at school and she's apparently one of
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Speaker 1: the victims enlisted Sister Kathy to keep her away from
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Speaker 1: her molester. Correct, So Kathy knew about everything? Was she
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Speaker 1: about to blow the lid? Jimma, what can you tell
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Speaker 1: me about these victims? Well, I know uh firsthand of
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Speaker 1: three women who when they were girls, uh, confided in
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Speaker 1: Kathy and um. The first one I know confided in
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Speaker 1: December of the other two in nineteen in the spring
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Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty nine. Now, Kathy left Archbishop ko to
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Speaker 1: teach in a public school and to live in an
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Speaker 1: apartment in the spring and June of six So for
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Speaker 1: for on one hand, the girls felt like she had
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Speaker 1: abandoned them, But my gut tells me that perhaps she
15:15
Speaker 1: and Russell were afraid to stay there. She told her
15:19
Speaker 1: family when they were very dismayed, that she was leaving
15:23
Speaker 1: and thinking about leaving the convent. And she told her
15:26
Speaker 1: family that it was more dangerous for her to teach
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Speaker 1: at Kio than it was to teach in the city
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Speaker 1: in Baltimore, which says a lot. Now, we also are
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Speaker 1: aware from more than one woman that high ranking politicians
15:43
Speaker 1: and businessmen and police officers were involved in the abuse.
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Speaker 1: This was a prostitution ring. This wasn't just a few
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Speaker 1: girls from Kio. There were drugs involved, there were sleazy
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Speaker 1: motels involved, and at everybody took care of each other.
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Speaker 1: If it goes all the way to city Hall, and
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Speaker 1: it did, then everybody's taking care of each other. The
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Speaker 1: police are taking care of Mascal, the politicians are taking
16:14
Speaker 1: care of the businessmen and the police. Nobody talks. The
16:18
Speaker 1: police are being serviced some right at the school, coming
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Speaker 1: in the fire door into Father Maskell's office where drugged
16:27
Speaker 1: and hip or hypnotized girls were there and money is exchanged.
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Speaker 1: When I think that I was in that building, it
16:35
Speaker 1: makes me so angry that the only thing that divided
16:38
Speaker 1: us from that hell was a one inch door. It's
16:42
Speaker 1: appalling because we knew nothing about what was going on,
16:47
Speaker 1: and we know that, I believe much of the many
16:51
Speaker 1: of the administrators in the building knew what was happening.
16:54
Speaker 1: They refused to talk to the police. The ones that
16:57
Speaker 1: are still living, they've been told by their superior arriers
17:00
Speaker 1: not to talk. And it's not right. Somebody has to
17:04
Speaker 1: blow the whistle. This is not okay. And well, there's
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Speaker 1: uh some credence, a fair bit of credence to Jimma's
17:13
Speaker 1: story because we know that Father Joseph Maskell was a
17:17
Speaker 1: chaplain and counselor there at Archbishop Kio High School. He
17:22
Speaker 1: had a brother on the police force, and there is
17:26
Speaker 1: no doubt that sister Cathy knew about the abuse. Not
17:32
Speaker 1: only did he have a brother on the police force,
17:35
Speaker 1: he was a counselor or the chaplain to the force
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Speaker 1: as well, so there are a lot of connections between
17:44
Speaker 1: him and the police too. Karen Stark, Psychologists joining us
17:48
Speaker 1: out of New York. Karen, I mean, I'm Methodist, I'm
17:54
Speaker 1: not Catholic, but when I hear about a Methodist minister
17:59
Speaker 1: who has done a horrible deed, I am mortified. I
18:05
Speaker 1: think it it's just horrible because that's someone you look
18:09
Speaker 1: up to, that you trust. I consider my minister, uh
18:14
Speaker 1: who we have male and female ministers at our family church.
18:20
Speaker 1: I consider them not only friends, but confidants and someone
18:25
Speaker 1: that I would go to to pray for or with
18:28
Speaker 1: me in times of need. You know, it's hard to
18:33
Speaker 1: to take in that someone who is a person of
18:38
Speaker 1: God that we look to, that we look up to,
18:43
Speaker 1: and I do. I look up to them, even though
18:47
Speaker 1: I've heard countless stories about this priest did that, this
18:50
Speaker 1: preacher did that, this minister did and most of them.
18:53
Speaker 1: Aren't your true to think that these young girls were
18:58
Speaker 1: in this position to be raped over and over and
19:03
Speaker 1: over and Mascale was transferred from one place to the next,
19:08
Speaker 1: and now you've got a dead none. I mean, why
19:14
Speaker 1: do people why are explain the the thinking, the mindset
19:19
Speaker 1: of when you will not report molestation because it is
19:24
Speaker 1: a priest or a pastor. Well, I think it's important
19:27
Speaker 1: for you to know, Nancy, and for everyone listening that
19:30
Speaker 1: it's not just a priest or a pastor, it's anyone
19:34
Speaker 1: who is older, who's in a position. It becomes a
19:37
Speaker 1: position of authority. So if it's apparent, it doesn't matter
19:41
Speaker 1: who the person is that's doing the molestation. When you're
19:45
Speaker 1: a child, and that means if you're in elementary school
19:51
Speaker 1: or if you're in high school, you are blaming yourself
19:56
Speaker 1: and ashamed of what happened. You don't really understand end
20:00
Speaker 1: that you are not to blame in a situation like this.
20:04
Speaker 1: And it's shameful that person who wanted sister Cathy to
20:10
Speaker 1: you know, keep her from seeing the priest. I can
20:13
Speaker 1: promise you that it wasn't because she was just angry
20:18
Speaker 1: with him. She felt bad about herself, and there is
20:24
Speaker 1: a conspiracy of silence because nobody wants to come forward
20:28
Speaker 1: and reveal that this has happened to them. They believe
20:32
Speaker 1: that they have somehow contributed to this occurring, and so
20:38
Speaker 1: it's shameful on so many levels. Does that explain it? Yes,
20:43
Speaker 1: it does, Karen, And as a crime victor myself on
20:47
Speaker 1: several levels um and having dealt with so many sex
20:53
Speaker 1: attack victims, a lot of times you just don't want
20:56
Speaker 1: to talk about it and you feel that somehow it
21:01
Speaker 1: was your fault and it's shameful, and that's the way
21:06
Speaker 1: so many sex attack victims feel. And then add on
21:10
Speaker 1: the layer of the attack or getting away with it.
21:15
Speaker 1: You feel like nobody's gonna listen to you, nobody's gonna
21:18
Speaker 1: believe you, so shut the hay up. And your family
21:25
Speaker 1: may not believe you. Your family, who may be wedded
21:28
Speaker 1: to the church may consider you at fault. I mean,
21:32
Speaker 1: it's just in their minds, it's just not worth it.
21:35
Speaker 1: Jima Hoskins, isn't it true You're a senior there at
21:40
Speaker 1: Kio High School at the time sister Cathy goes missing, right? Correct? Yes? Correct?
21:47
Speaker 1: What was it like when you discover she's not at
21:51
Speaker 1: school today. What happened At the time that she disappeared.
21:55
Speaker 1: She was no longer teaching at Keio, that's teaching at
21:59
Speaker 1: Western High School in the city. But we were told
22:02
Speaker 1: that she was missing that you know, there were no
22:04
Speaker 1: cell phones and no Facebook, but our telephones on landlines.
22:09
Speaker 1: All the girls were all calling each other, and the
22:12
Speaker 1: whole community showed up at her apartment to help search,
22:16
Speaker 1: and you've seen pictures of all the police car as well.
22:19
Speaker 1: There were that many families looking as well. We were bewildered.
22:24
Speaker 1: We didn't know that perhaps she just needed to get away,
22:28
Speaker 1: Maybe she you know, just needed some space. We had
22:32
Speaker 1: no idea what happened to her. It didn't make sense. Well,
22:35
Speaker 1: was see the kind of person that needed space. Well,
22:38
Speaker 1: she kind of made her own space. But we knew
22:41
Speaker 1: nothing about the abuse, so we had nothing to assume.
22:45
Speaker 1: We none of us knew anything about what was going
22:47
Speaker 1: on at the school except the girls it was happening to.
22:51
Speaker 1: So I'm sure their mindset was very different. And I
22:54
Speaker 1: know that I've heard uh one woman say that she
22:58
Speaker 1: had confided in Kathy and it felt guilty that she
23:01
Speaker 1: might have been responsible for Kathy's daths. So none of
23:05
Speaker 1: us knew what was going on. Well, listen to this.
23:08
Speaker 1: Listen to this, Jimma with Me, Jimma Hoskins, Shane Waters,
23:12
Speaker 1: Karin Starkin, John Lmley. Guys, listen to this. This is
23:16
Speaker 1: Donna von den Bosch who suffered horrific abuse. She actually
23:23
Speaker 1: got a meager settlement with the Catholic Church. She was
23:28
Speaker 1: attacked when she was just fourteen years old by the
23:33
Speaker 1: same father Mascal. She had been a bright, excited, happy
23:42
Speaker 1: freshman at the school. And here she is on w
23:47
Speaker 1: j Z describing how she was given a drug laced
23:52
Speaker 1: soda while she was at a Catholic youth picnic and
23:56
Speaker 1: then raped by father Mescal and another priest. Listen, he
24:03
Speaker 1: was psychotic. And here's this parish priest that I've known
24:08
Speaker 1: since I was twelve, and it's also confusing. And this
24:13
Speaker 1: we go one for the next three years. She opens
24:17
Speaker 1: up to w jay Z telling how she's served a
24:19
Speaker 1: drug laced soda at a Catholic youth picnic and then
24:23
Speaker 1: raped by Father Mascoll and another priest. I'm just woozy
24:28
Speaker 1: by fall damn. He lays on top of me. He
24:32
Speaker 1: puts his legs in between my legs. To spare my
24:35
Speaker 1: legs part and rapes me. She goes on to state
24:39
Speaker 1: that at school she would hear her name called over
24:43
Speaker 1: the loud speaker telling her to report to Father Moscow's office.
24:51
Speaker 1: She said that sometimes she would go in and be raped,
24:55
Speaker 1: and sometimes he would have a coke. She will be
24:59
Speaker 1: drugged my most of the time and would be threatened.
25:05
Speaker 1: Sometimes we go in and be raped. Sometimes he would
25:10
Speaker 1: have a coke. I would be drug most of the time.
25:14
Speaker 1: He would keep guns in his top drawer. He would
25:19
Speaker 1: threaten me with them. He stole your innocence, yes, he
25:23
Speaker 1: stole your education. Yes. Did he steal your faith? Yes,
25:28
Speaker 1: because maybe I could have grown up Catholic and been happy,
25:31
Speaker 1: and I had to teach my kids you just don't
25:34
Speaker 1: trust people because they have a collar own or something.
25:38
Speaker 1: You know, monsters high you've seen the monster? Yes? Yes,
25:43
Speaker 1: How do you feel about the archdiocese? Now? This has
25:46
Speaker 1: to stop. People have to take responsibility. I hope they
25:50
Speaker 1: find um out the terrible deeds that were done and
25:56
Speaker 1: just to be served. I also hope that other survivors
26:02
Speaker 1: here that you can survive, you can move on. Don't
26:06
Speaker 1: be fooled into silence. So in my mind John Limley,
26:11
Speaker 1: the fact that the church settled. It wasn't for a lot,
26:14
Speaker 1: but they did make a forty dollars settlement for all
26:18
Speaker 1: the rapes she endured at the hands of father. And
26:22
Speaker 1: I say that with them dirt in my mouth, mescal
26:27
Speaker 1: so to me, that tells me her story is true?
26:31
Speaker 1: Or why would they have settled? And a lot of
26:33
Speaker 1: that didn't take place until twenty or so years later,
26:36
Speaker 1: two decades after the abuse. I think it would be
26:41
Speaker 1: interesting to go back to the timeline of that early
26:46
Speaker 1: November evening when Sister Cathy disappeared, uh, to bring a
26:52
Speaker 1: little bit more forward about the case. Now, a few
26:55
Speaker 1: hours went by after Sister Cathy told Sister Russell that
27:00
Speaker 1: she was going to cash her paycheck, Um, go to
27:04
Speaker 1: the bakery, maybe do a little shopping. It it's eleven o'clock.
27:09
Speaker 1: A good number of hours have gone by, and so
27:14
Speaker 1: Sister Russell becomes worried, so she calls two of their
27:17
Speaker 1: priest friends who drive over to the apartment. They eventually
27:22
Speaker 1: decide to call the police, and then they wait, and
27:26
Speaker 1: they wait for hours. In fact, at one point, um
27:30
Speaker 1: they even celebrate Mass at the at the kitchen or
27:34
Speaker 1: dining room table. Um, just hoping against hope that that
27:39
Speaker 1: sister Cathy just shows up around four or forty the
27:43
Speaker 1: next morning, it's still very dark. Uh. Sister Cathy's brand
27:49
Speaker 1: new Greenford Maverick is found with mud on it, unlocked,
27:55
Speaker 1: illegally parked just diagonally across from her apart it. And
28:01
Speaker 1: this is interesting. The back end of the vehicle is
28:04
Speaker 1: actually in the road. Um. And sister Cathy had a
28:09
Speaker 1: designated parking spot behind the apartment building, so she certainly
28:13
Speaker 1: would not have parked there. It's it's as if someone
28:16
Speaker 1: wanted that vehicle found, but there was no sign of
28:21
Speaker 1: the nun anywhere. Well, I can tell you this, John, Emily.
28:24
Speaker 1: She did not part that car that way. No, not
28:27
Speaker 1: at all. And it was several weeks. It was months
28:33
Speaker 1: later before on a cold, cold January day. Uh, sister
28:40
Speaker 1: Cathy's body is found by a hunter and his son.
28:45
Speaker 1: It was found in an informal landfill. You know. It
28:49
Speaker 1: was a landfill that was not designated as such. It's
28:52
Speaker 1: just where people went to dump stuff. Uh. It was
28:56
Speaker 1: on monumental road in a remote area of a good
29:00
Speaker 1: distance away from Cathey's apartment and after an autopsy was performed.
29:07
Speaker 1: It was revealed that Sister Cathy died from an interest
29:11
Speaker 1: rebral hemorrhage after a fracture to her skull that was
29:17
Speaker 1: inflicted by a blow to her left temple. They think
29:22
Speaker 1: by a blunt instrument. When Sister Cathy was reported that night,
29:26
Speaker 1: dozens of cops a half a dozen dog teams searched
29:29
Speaker 1: and searched a wide swath of Baltimore in that neighborhood
29:34
Speaker 1: looking for clues, headlines in the papers or city police
29:40
Speaker 1: failed to find missing none, and as John Linley is reporting,
29:44
Speaker 1: the next time she was seen, it was a horrifying site.
29:51
Speaker 1: There she was, her face covered in maggots, the body
29:56
Speaker 1: of Sister Cathy, frozen out in a field. When I
30:02
Speaker 1: look at her in her habit and then in her
30:06
Speaker 1: street clothes, she just looks so alive and so happy
30:09
Speaker 1: and so eager to teach. But it all turned into
30:14
Speaker 1: a horrific scene when she was found. Gemma, what can
30:21
Speaker 1: you tell me about another young girl who claims that
30:27
Speaker 1: she was taken by father Mescal to see as a
30:34
Speaker 1: threat Sister Cathy's body as it lie in this field. Yes,
30:40
Speaker 1: I can clarify something. Cathy's body was found there was
30:45
Speaker 1: not evidence of maggots on her face. This has been
30:49
Speaker 1: a real um issue of of what actually happened because
30:55
Speaker 1: it was January. This is horrendous. But I've done search
31:00
Speaker 1: on the life syfe cycle of maggots, and I've worked
31:03
Speaker 1: with the people that were on the body farm, which
31:07
Speaker 1: is a research place for um the decomposition, and what
31:12
Speaker 1: I learned was that because it was very warm after
31:16
Speaker 1: Cathy disappeared, when Jean was taken to see her in November,
31:22
Speaker 1: there were live maggots on her face and on her body.
31:27
Speaker 1: Now in January, there was no evidence of that. But
31:32
Speaker 1: in reading the autopsy, which I have a copy of,
31:36
Speaker 1: and by the way, warners fits and we all know
31:40
Speaker 1: who Warner s Fits is um he he explains that
31:46
Speaker 1: there were maggots in her trachea and her esophagus, so
31:51
Speaker 1: that what happens when the weather gets cold is that
31:55
Speaker 1: live maggots burrowed deeper to where it's warm. And I
31:59
Speaker 1: have to i and stay objective about this because it's
32:02
Speaker 1: very emotional for me to think that has happened to
32:05
Speaker 1: the person who was my mentor and the reason I
32:08
Speaker 1: became a teacher, because to think of her in this
32:11
Speaker 1: in this setting is just really difficult for me. But
32:15
Speaker 1: the maggots actually were not on her face, they were
32:18
Speaker 1: inside her body, and that showed up in the autopsy.
32:21
Speaker 1: You know, I find that really interesting, jim on what
32:24
Speaker 1: you're saying, because the witnesses that there were maggots, and
32:29
Speaker 1: I I believe, Jemma, you're gonna laugh. I had one
32:33
Speaker 1: of the oldest judges in the Fulton County Courthouse who
32:35
Speaker 1: was I would also like to point out the sharpest
32:37
Speaker 1: and the smartest judge I ever knew, Luther Alverson, told
32:42
Speaker 1: every jury the same jury charge. It is your duty
32:46
Speaker 1: as gerards to make all witnesses speak the truth, impugning
32:49
Speaker 1: perjury on new one, which means stories can vary to
32:55
Speaker 1: a certain degree. That doesn't mean the people are lying.
32:59
Speaker 1: That means maybe they saw it at a different angle,
33:01
Speaker 1: maybe this, maybe that. So if this, if there were
33:05
Speaker 1: maggots in her throat, hoesophagus, and this young girl is
33:10
Speaker 1: brought out to see the dead body and says, there
33:13
Speaker 1: are maggots. I don't know what she saw. Maybe she
33:16
Speaker 1: saw one. I believe that given your scenario that I
33:20
Speaker 1: think that both both witnesses are speaking the truth. But
33:25
Speaker 1: how did the girl get out there, and why did
33:27
Speaker 1: she report the dead body? Right? Well, she was taken
33:30
Speaker 1: by mask All and this was after she had been
33:34
Speaker 1: abused by him for quite a while. He told her
33:38
Speaker 1: that he knew where Cathy was. Maskell took her to
33:41
Speaker 1: see Cathy's body and at that time, because it was
33:45
Speaker 1: just a few weeks after her death, after her disappearance,
33:50
Speaker 1: there were live maggots on her face. So Gene is
33:55
Speaker 1: correct in saying that when Cathy's body was found in January, Harry,
34:01
Speaker 1: there was no evidence of maggots because it was cold
34:06
Speaker 1: and they burrowed deep into organs to get warm. Why
34:11
Speaker 1: do you believe she didn't come forward, Jemma Hoskins, Well,
34:16
Speaker 1: she was threatened with her life. Maskell said to her,
34:19
Speaker 1: you see what happens when you say bad things about people,
34:23
Speaker 1: and she was terrified. So she Jeane is the connection
34:29
Speaker 1: between the abuse and the murder. She's credible. I believe her.
34:34
Speaker 1: And when he took her there, it was to ensure
34:38
Speaker 1: her silence because she knew then that he had been
34:42
Speaker 1: responsible in some way for Kathy's death, for her murder,
34:47
Speaker 1: and that was early in his abuse career. So to
34:50
Speaker 1: every single person who had been abused by him, and
34:54
Speaker 1: we know now that that number is over a hundred.
34:57
Speaker 1: And to any nun at that fool who knew about
35:01
Speaker 1: the abuse, everybody closed their mouth. They were terrified because
35:07
Speaker 1: they knew they could be next. And I always believe
35:10
Speaker 1: that that is why Russell did not call the police,
35:14
Speaker 1: because she knew the police were involved. I think that's
35:17
Speaker 1: why she called of Cathy's friend Jerry Kobe, and the
35:21
Speaker 1: other the other brother who was a friend, because she
35:27
Speaker 1: didn't know who to turn to. I think it almost
35:30
Speaker 1: proves that the police were involved because Russell kept silent
35:35
Speaker 1: and didn't call the police. But I believe that um
35:39
Speaker 1: Jean is very credible. There's no way that she could
35:43
Speaker 1: have known that those live maggots were there unless she
35:47
Speaker 1: saw them. I think that that is very important, very important,
35:53
Speaker 1: John Limley, when I prosecute cases and I've got a witness,
35:57
Speaker 1: and I don't care if they're believable or unbelievable, or
36:00
Speaker 1: credible not credible. If I putting them on the stand,
36:03
Speaker 1: I believe them and if I can get any sintilla
36:06
Speaker 1: of evidence to support what they're saying, it is very
36:10
Speaker 1: important at trial. And Jimma Hoskins, who was a senior
36:15
Speaker 1: there at this at Keio school when sister Cathy goes
36:20
Speaker 1: missing and is killed, is describing this. That's so important.
36:25
Speaker 1: That's why I spent so much time talking about maggots.
36:28
Speaker 1: Not my favorite topic, but because they corroborate what this
36:33
Speaker 1: young girl said. That Mescal took her there and said,
36:36
Speaker 1: look what happens to people that talk about me? You
36:40
Speaker 1: could be next. And this is a detail this young
36:43
Speaker 1: girl wouldn't have just dreamed up on her own. And
36:45
Speaker 1: then years later it is. It turns out there were
36:50
Speaker 1: maggots in her esophagus, so it supports her story. It's
36:57
Speaker 1: it's so upsetting to me. Now here's another twist, another wrinkle.
37:03
Speaker 1: The body of Mascal, who later died was never going
37:07
Speaker 1: to jail, was exhumed. His d n A did not
37:11
Speaker 1: match crime scene d NA. That means nothing to me,
37:16
Speaker 1: John Limley, because I don't have any evident Sister Cathy,
37:20
Speaker 1: who by the way, was compared to Julie Andrews in
37:23
Speaker 1: Sound of Music. That's kind of personality she had, and
37:27
Speaker 1: I can just imagine her. I've been reading all the
37:30
Speaker 1: old articles in the paper. For instance, police continue a
37:34
Speaker 1: widespread search today for a pretty blue eyed year old
37:37
Speaker 1: Nune who mysteriously disappeared Friday night on a shopping expedition
37:42
Speaker 1: in the Edmonton Village area off Route forty. Sister Catherine
37:46
Speaker 1: says Nick, a member of the school Sisters of Notre Dame,
37:51
Speaker 1: reported missing early yesterday, five hours after failing to return
37:55
Speaker 1: to her apartment her sporting new car in nineteen seventy
37:59
Speaker 1: green matter Rick found during the night parked a blot
38:02
Speaker 1: from her home. It's only contents a box of buns
38:06
Speaker 1: from Muley's Bakery and a novel on native grounds. I'm
38:11
Speaker 1: just imagining her crime stories. Contributing reporter John Limley, his
38:17
Speaker 1: DNA did not match DNA at the scene. But for
38:20
Speaker 1: all I know, the DNA at the scene is DNA
38:24
Speaker 1: in the car. It could be on the car, it
38:27
Speaker 1: could be anything. It could be on the paperbag. That
38:30
Speaker 1: does not mean anything to me, Limley, Where did the
38:33
Speaker 1: DNA come from? There? Talking about the d N A
38:38
Speaker 1: was was found at the scene. That's been under wraps
38:42
Speaker 1: a little bit because even the car, the apartment, the bank,
38:47
Speaker 1: the store, the bakery, bag, the body, what what what? What? Scene?
38:52
Speaker 1: There's so there's a primaria secondary and a tertiary crime
38:55
Speaker 1: scene here, right, this was was this was found connected
38:59
Speaker 1: with a vehicle and surrounding uh Cathy's body there where
39:06
Speaker 1: they found her on that January morning. Are you sure
39:08
Speaker 1: that's where the DNA came from? Jimma, go ahead, because
39:12
Speaker 1: I'm not clear either where did the DNA come from? Okay,
39:15
Speaker 1: then came from a cigarette butt? All right? It was
39:20
Speaker 1: found at the crime scene. But at this point the
39:24
Speaker 1: police have asked me not to share exactly where at
39:29
Speaker 1: the crime scene. That's all I can say. But it
39:32
Speaker 1: was at the crime scene where her body was found.
39:34
Speaker 1: But I can't tell you specifically where because I've been
39:37
Speaker 1: asked not to. So it was where her body was,
39:41
Speaker 1: and that's still Jimma. No, We've got to keep the
39:46
Speaker 1: integrity of the investigation exactly. Jima. Here's the thing. It
39:50
Speaker 1: still means nothing to me because I don't know how
39:52
Speaker 1: that cigarette but got there. It may or may not
39:55
Speaker 1: be connected. You just can't tell me that he was
39:59
Speaker 1: not involved in some way. I will never tell you
40:02
Speaker 1: that because I believe he choreographed the whole thing. Whether
40:06
Speaker 1: he was there or not, we don't know. Yeah, I
40:09
Speaker 1: read between the lines. The cigarette but was at the
40:12
Speaker 1: crime scene, and my I my opinion is that it
40:18
Speaker 1: may have been a decoy because it hasn't matched anybody,
40:23
Speaker 1: and so perhaps you know, these guys were I think
40:28
Speaker 1: they were in cahoots. They weren't stupid. Mascal was was
40:31
Speaker 1: a monster, genius and if he involved subs, anybody could
40:37
Speaker 1: have thrown a cigarette button there from any place and
40:40
Speaker 1: everybody was going in the wrong direction. Jim, let me
40:43
Speaker 1: ask you a question. What was his personality? Was he charismatic?
40:46
Speaker 1: Was he attractive? I mean, I've looked at him. He's
40:48
Speaker 1: not attractive to me, but why were people drawn to him? Okay,
40:52
Speaker 1: Masco was charismatic in he was very brilliant. He he
41:00
Speaker 1: was very smooth, smooth talker to me. He was never
41:04
Speaker 1: physically attractive. Um. People say, you know who would play
41:09
Speaker 1: him in a in a movie, and I can't think
41:12
Speaker 1: of any He's not George Clooney, but um, very insidious,
41:17
Speaker 1: always watching. It's my understanding that he would consult with
41:22
Speaker 1: the nurse, the counselor, and the dean each week about
41:26
Speaker 1: what girls were having problems mental, physical, school, emotional, and
41:32
Speaker 1: that would be his shopping list. I hate to say
41:34
Speaker 1: it that way, but that's how He preyed on his
41:37
Speaker 1: on his victims, um girls who were having issues, girls
41:41
Speaker 1: who were upset, girls who were, you know, experimenting with
41:45
Speaker 1: drugs or we're having problems at home. He was looking
41:49
Speaker 1: for anybody that he could manipulate. And I'm not saying
41:54
Speaker 1: that all the victims were in that situation, but he
41:58
Speaker 1: was drawn to certain types of girls that he knew
42:03
Speaker 1: he would be able to manipulate. He would say Mass.
42:08
Speaker 1: He did not live at our Ti Kyo. He would
42:11
Speaker 1: come to say Mass and he was chaplain. The other
42:14
Speaker 1: priests that was there was the head of religious studies,
42:18
Speaker 1: and that was Neil Magnus. He also was abusive. He
42:22
Speaker 1: is actually the first person that some of the girls
42:26
Speaker 1: UH interacted with in confession, and then he asked them
42:29
Speaker 1: to come to his office, so he and Maskell would
42:33
Speaker 1: abuse girls together. We also know that some of the
42:38
Speaker 1: staff at the school facilitated the visits to his office
42:43
Speaker 1: by calling the girls or giving out the passes. A
42:47
Speaker 1: lot of people knew what was going on, and nobody
42:50
Speaker 1: was talking about it. And I believe Sister Kathy and
42:53
Speaker 1: Sister Russell were the only two that we're willing to
42:56
Speaker 1: do anything. So Mascow had a lot of power, but
43:00
Speaker 1: a control freak, um, a sociopath and and I believe that, uh,
43:09
Speaker 1: this man had enough power, enough skills, he fooled everybody.
43:16
Speaker 1: He fooled everybody, even his own teachers in his master's programs. Um,
43:23
Speaker 1: if there's is something I could say about this whole issue,
43:28
Speaker 1: And Nancy, thank you so much for doing this because
43:32
Speaker 1: people listen to you, and I hope that you'll continue
43:36
Speaker 1: to push for attention to this. But I want to
43:40
Speaker 1: celebrate and acknowledge all the people that have come forward,
43:43
Speaker 1: because they're well over a hundred now and many more
43:47
Speaker 1: hundreds who have contacted me. That the Keepers survivors gave
43:52
Speaker 1: them the strength and the courage to speak for the
43:57
Speaker 1: first time about being sexually abused or sexually harassed. And
44:03
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of what's happening in the
44:05
Speaker 1: public right now is due in part to the women
44:09
Speaker 1: of the Keepers. Karen start joining us out of New York.
44:13
Speaker 1: Will this case ever be solved? Why or why not? Sure? Um,
44:22
Speaker 1: if it does get solved, it will be because of
44:25
Speaker 1: all the attention that's been brought to the case because
44:28
Speaker 1: of Gemma and her fellow investigator. However, even if it
44:34
Speaker 1: never gets solved. I want to say that it's so
44:38
Speaker 1: important that it came to light and that this the
44:44
Speaker 1: victims get a chance to tell their story and get
44:48
Speaker 1: it out, and that we hope it will never happen
44:53
Speaker 1: in the future because of people like Gemma Jemma Hoskins.
44:59
Speaker 1: Final thought to me, I'm not religious, but I do
45:02
Speaker 1: have faith, and I do believe in my higher power.
45:05
Speaker 1: But to me, if evil walks the earth, it would
45:09
Speaker 1: have been him pure evil, because he could hide behind
45:14
Speaker 1: a presvestments and he could come across as being charming smart.
45:21
Speaker 1: You know, his professor at at Hopkins said he was
45:25
Speaker 1: one of the smartest people she ever met, and he
45:27
Speaker 1: fooled her because they became friends and it wasn't until
45:31
Speaker 1: near the end of his life that she realized what
45:34
Speaker 1: he was doing. So it's appalling because you know, people
45:41
Speaker 1: believe while you do what the priest says, and girls
45:44
Speaker 1: were afraid to tell. And it's a mess. It's a mess.
45:48
Speaker 1: I do believe it will be solved. I think the
45:51
Speaker 1: police it boils down to, well, you're you're attorney. It's
45:56
Speaker 1: going to be either d n a, a confession, or
45:58
Speaker 1: an eye witness, and all three of those are possible
46:02
Speaker 1: right now and the police are using new technology. They're
46:06
Speaker 1: doing further testing with DNA on the evidence that was
46:10
Speaker 1: found at the scene, and I I believe it will
46:14
Speaker 1: be solved and probably in the not too distant future.
46:19
Speaker 1: The case of the abduction and murderer of sister Kathy
46:25
Speaker 1: is still open, still unresolved. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing
46:31
Speaker 1: off goodbye friend,