Latest / The Scene Projects / John von Seggern on Electronic Music, AI, and Future Proof Music School

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John von Seggern on Electronic Music, AI, and Future Proof Music School · The Scene Projects

• 0:02
  Welcome in to another exciting episode of the scene.
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  I'm your host Bubba Starts, and with me today from the future I'm gonna start over.
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  Okay?
• 0:13
  Hey.
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  You know what?
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  Before you start, I was just gonna say one thing.
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  I was reading about you're in the Midwest, aren't you?
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  Yes, sir.
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  I'm from Nebraska, so I thought that might be an interesting angle to bring up at some point.
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  Okay.
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  Yeah.
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  I'm close.
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  I live about ten minutes from the from, like, Niobrara.
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  Okay.
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  My family's down in the Southeast Corner Of Nebraska, Fall City.
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  Okay.
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  And I'm in the Southeast Corner Of South Dakota.
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  So
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  Alright.
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  Awesome.
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  I'm gonna restart.
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  I'll edit this.
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  I don't do a lot of that, but I screwed up your intro.
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  Yeah.
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  Go ahead.
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  Let's go for it.
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  I'm gonna blame the head cold I've had for days now.
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  Alright.
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  Welcome into a very exciting episode of the scene.
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  I'm your host Bubba Starts and with me today from the future proof music school, John Van
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  Sagern.
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  Did I say it right?
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  Hi there.
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  Yeah.
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  John Van Sagern.
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  Yeah.
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  Dutch.
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  Correct?
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  It's German.
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  It's North German.
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  It's all kind of been a similar zone up there though.
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  Yeah.
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  Fantastic.
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  Well, John, thank you so much for being on the show today.
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  Love everything that I'm hearing already.
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  You said we're gonna talk about music, AI, and education.
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  All three things that I am very interested in.
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  Nice.
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  I'm gonna allow you to kind of introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about
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  yourself now.
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  Okay.
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  Sure.
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  I have been a professional musician all my life and then I started working in music education
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  about fifteen years ago.
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  I've had kind of a crazy diverse career, I guess.
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  It seems like anyone who sticks with a creative career for enough years, you end up working in
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  a lot of different things just to keep your head above water, if you know what I mean.
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  But anyway, yeah.
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  So I started out as an acoustic jazz musician actually.
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  I'm a bass player.
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  And I ended up moving to Japan and playing jazz for a while.
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  Then I ended up moving to Hong Kong and becoming more of a session and pop musician.
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  I played on a lot of records and tours with big Chinese artists who are honestly some of the
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  biggest pop artists in the world at that time.
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  That was in the nineties.
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  And then, while I was still in Hong Kong, I got into electronic music and I started producing
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  and performing with computers and also ended up doing a master degree on digital music culture.
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  That was the time when the m p three file sharing was really revolutionizing anything.
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  Anyway, then I moved back to The States and then I started working more.
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  I moved to Los Angeles and then I started moving started working more in music technology
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  and I worked for Native Instruments for a while.
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  Probably my biggest claim to fame there was I wrote the manual for Massive, which is a
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  synthesizer that ended up being used for the early dubstep scene a lot, so everybody kinda
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  knows that one.
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  And and then I went from that and I got into music education and specifically online music
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  education, working mostly with electronic music, electronic music production.
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  So, like, computer based music production.
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  So it's been a long trip from playing acoustic music when we all we had to play all the notes
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  as I like to tell the young students.
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  We literally had to play them all in in time with each other, not only.
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  And then to now, you know, we're using computers and so the AI thing I got into AI
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  because I'm very I've always been very interested in using technology to learn better
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  and learn faster.
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  I'm a very curious person and I wanna learn as many things as I can and I've ever since the
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  internet started, you know, when we first got Google, that was very exciting to be able to
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  just Google things.
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  And YouTube has kind of been another step of learning things from each other and now AI is
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  like another acceleration of that, I feel like.
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  So what really inspired me in AI was I was tutoring my young son during COVID.
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  He was in second grade then and he was home for a while and I decided to just teach him myself.
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  And we're using Khan Academy for the math, something a lot of people have used, and they
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  had introduced a little tutor, they call it Conmigo, and it kind of they have the course
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  and then the students work through it but then Convigo would pop up and help you where you
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  needed help or you could they would show you a different way to do it or things like this.
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  So that has kind of been my inspiration in developing our AI tutor we call Cadence. And
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  Cadence
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  And Cadence is integrated into our courses and can help you answer your questions or if you
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  wanna go off on a tangent and explore something.
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  But I feel like I've rambled on for a while now.
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  Maybe I should stop and let you get a word in.
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  Speaking of questions, I have so many.
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  First of all, I feel like in some ways we have you to thank for the womp of the late aughts
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  and early twenty tens as dubstep just came on the scene out of nowhere.
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  I was out in Oregon o seven to o nine, and dubstep was really just starting to hit the
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  scene around that time.
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  And by 02/2010, it was literally everywhere being played on, you know, the the national
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  scene, the national TV ads, and everything.
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  So it was funny to kinda watch it go from an underground very you know?
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  And even in that world where still house and breakbeats were still kind of the norm for most
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  rave parties or or whatever you wanna call it, for electronic music parties anyway, especially
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  around Portland and and where I was hanging out out there.
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  How long has AI been producing music on the pop scene?
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  I gotta know.
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  Producing music I mean, it's only really been possible to do that in the last year or so.
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  I don't know.
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  I know you're referring to, like, these these AI bands, like
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  It's incredible.
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  Down on
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  the sound stuff.
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  It's incredible.
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  And and I cut as a musician, right, I I think it's our tendency to get a little offended,
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  right, when we see someone.
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  But as a as a human being and knowing what expression and how music has allowed me to
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  express myself, there's so many people that didn't spend their teenage years like I did
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  learning an instrument when they had all the time in the world.
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  And now they have these thoughts and they have these feelings and they have these words and
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  these things that they want to say and they want to communicate that through song.
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  They have no wherewithal to make that happen.
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  And instead of paying someone thousands and thousands of dollars to never make you know, to
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  produce something that's never going to make a single penny because all of us are already out
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  here spending thousands of dollars getting our out out there and not making any money, To see
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  them able to express themselves that way, it makes me really proud to to see that.
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  And but then, like I said, the other side is that, you know, I kinda shake my head where I'm
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  like, man, I had to work so hard to learn so many things to watch it just be, you know, kind
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  of, you know, commoditized down and made into something that a few hours with ChatGPT and
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  some other AI software can spit out, you know, a better produced song than I could ever do on
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  my own.
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  You know, they sound ready for pop radio some of these.
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  It's incredible.
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  Well, you know, yeah, that's that's really interesting, you know, what you're saying.
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  And a lot of the thinking that's gone into design of our school is thinking about what
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  does even mean to be a musician or a producer in this kind of world where these kind of tools
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  exist.
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  And and I I agree with you.
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  It's and on the one hand, it's great that more people are able to make music just like with
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  mid journey and the art thing.
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  More people are able to make art using AI tools and express themselves that way.
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  I don't think most of them wanna become professional graphic designers.
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  They just wanna make images for their D and D game or something like that, you know.
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  But I think they're I mean, nobody really knows how this is gonna play out.
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  Right?
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  But I think I think of it at base like this.
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  There's always gonna be people who are more devoted to art and music or more passionate
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  about it than everybody else and spend more time on it and work harder on it and those
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  people are always gonna rise above the rest.
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  I don't know what tools those people are gonna use in the future.
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  I imagine they're gonna be using AI for some of what they're doing.
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  But there are other there are other challenges and points that come up when you think about
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  this.
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  So if you wanna be what does it mean even to be like a distinctive artist?
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  Well, let's stick to music artist for a minute.
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  What does it mean to like have your own sound or your own perspective, your own personal
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  voice that comes out through lyrics or whatever?
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  That's more than you can really capture from just generating something in the moment.
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  Like, you're talking about creating, like, a body of work with a consistency over time and
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  that expresses your personal point of view.
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  So I believe there's always gonna be a role for that kind of artist somehow.
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  And what we're trying to do is figure out how to prepare those people for future careers.
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  And how to figure out what do they need to know.
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  Right.
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  Well, and I think it I think that while the AI is very good at maybe creating a song,
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  creating, like you said, an artist and something that someone is going to follow and
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  to invest their time into getting to know everything about them.
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  Like, it can't manufacture a pop star yet.
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  It can manufacture a pop song, but it can't necessarily develop that entire, you know,
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  catalog out.
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  And maybe it's with time, it may be able to do that.
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  But
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  Well, right.
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  But I guess it's like there's also another perspective on it is there's different kinds of
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  art and music.
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  There's some music that we don't care who made it.
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  Like the music you maybe hear in the supermarket for example.
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  It's just some pleasant background music.
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  But then there's music that we care very much who made it, like, at least those of us who are
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  real music fans, I care about the artists that I follow and their personal journeys and why
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  they made why they played guitar on this album and not this album because they were, you know,
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  who knows, it's part of their personal process.
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  And and I also think in the sound of the music, your your process of creating it is what leads
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  to how it sounds.
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  You know what I mean?
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  So that's why even, you know, leaving out AI for a second, like, some people are really into
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  using hardware synthesizers or hardware recording systems because it gives them a
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  different interface to work with or different limitations of sounds.
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  You get what I'm saying?
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  Well, yeah.
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  I mean, we've been having this discussion since the real you know, since the 08/2008 drum, you
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  know, processor.
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  And it's kinda just continues to evolve to where now the AI is taking it to a whole
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  another level, and it's learning.
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  And that's what I think is hard to fathom as that two years ago even.
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  This was kind of a thought, oh, well, yeah.
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  Sure.
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  It'll be able to do that.
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  And then it's like, oh, no.
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  It's here, and it's doing it, and it's doing it to a very high level that is probably scaring a
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  lot of people.
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  But it's never I've come from the country and rock music world, a member of the Midwest
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  Country Music Organization.
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  So I deal with a lot of people that are obviously still playing their instruments and
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  are playing live.
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  And I don't know you know, you're never going to be able to see someone who's creating music
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  using AI to go out there and perform that song necessarily, because most people are using that
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  AI because they can't sing or they can't write a you know, they they can't play an instrument
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  per se.
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  So it's it's just an interesting conversation.
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  We could go on and on about the the ramifications of it, But I would love to know,
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  you know, how that kind of ties in with future proof because, obviously, you're addressing
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  this from from an angle of, hey.
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  Well, we know that it's here.
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  It's not going anywhere.
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  How do we start equipping young musicians or young artists with the tools while also kinda
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  maintaining some modicum of integrity as an artist as well?
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  Right.
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  So I think there's two sides to that.
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  One side is we've really thought about, yeah, what are the deeper core things that you're
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  gonna need to know to be a successful artist in this kind of era.
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  And I don't think it's actually technical skills as much.
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  In fact, I mean, there still is a lot of that you need to know.
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  But the AI is gonna help us with that.
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  That's one of the good uses of AI is like help me figure out how to mix this track better or
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  why does the synthesizer clashing with the guitar.
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  Can you help me with that?
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  There's and there's already been things like that actually.
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  There's plug ins that do that.
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  But but on a deeper level, what is it that sets apart like a really great artist from somebody
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  who's just kind of copying everybody else, you know?
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  And it's really more your creative vision at heart.
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  And really thinking about what am I really about as an artist?
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  What am I trying to express?
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  That's what we're trying to lead our students to think about.
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  More of the personal and interpersonal aspects of music because of AI and just technology in
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  general, making a lot of the technical aspects easier and easier.
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  I mean, it's never been easier to learn an instrument, I would think, than now because so
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  much information and courses and and just information is available online, whether it's
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  free on YouTube or it's courses in schools such as yours, that we it's easy to lose track of
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  the the personal side of songwriting and the interpersonal side of maybe creating a band and
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  playing with other people or or booking shows or just dealing with fans.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Absolutely.
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  I mean, I should say also one of the core, probably the core part of our school is that we
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  want you to work personally with people that have already gone down the path that you have
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  and we have a posse of pretty successful artists working for us.
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  My partner is a dubstep star Protohype and he's our director of marketing and he's created a
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  lot of the courses and he's already in fact, he's he's off somewhere to play this weekend.
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  Think he's gonna be out of 10.
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  But but I was gonna say on the creative vision kind of tip, I've I've been supervising these
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  kind of programs for about fifteen years now at different schools and the thing that I really
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  got to notice is if you're if the program is well designed and the teachers are good, then
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  the students will learn and they'll get better at producing, you know.
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  That means your program is working.
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  So I can hear the students music go along and from quarter to quarter I can hear, okay, that
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  guy is, you know, he learned how to mix, now his bass is clearer, the levels are better, the
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  vocal I can hear, you know.
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  But then what you'd notice is you can learn that part, but if that person if all they're
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  trying to do is like copy the guy that they're really into, then that doesn't lead to
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  anything.
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  You know what I mean?
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  And even in terms of like a career sense, like, I would always counsel the students.
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  If you want to have a sustainable, successful career, you need to make some kind of original
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  mark for yourself.
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  You can't just be the number seventy eighth person that's copying Skrillex or whoever it
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  is.
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  So I I think that that is really the core skill that developing your creativity and your
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  vision, that's what you're not gonna at the end of the day, you still have to decide what kind
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  of music you're gonna make.
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  Right?
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  You can't outsource that to AI.
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  Do you think you can teach someone how to be inspired?
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  Oh, gosh.
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  That's a good question.
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  I don't think I don't think you could Well, I I would say there's two parts of it.
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  On the one hand, there are, you know, there's exercises you can do to practice creativity
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  like like go go for a walk and then come back and write a track.
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  Meditate for ten minutes, you know, or something like this.
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  We actually do have a couple courses in creativity.
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  They're called creative strategies and one of our teachers, Steve Naleppa, he he he
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  structured it by each video, each unit is about a different musician or artist that he really
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  likes.
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  And he would try to hone in on one aspect of why he likes them and then he asked you to kind
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  of try to apply that to make a sketch.
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  So you're trying to draw inspiration from different people than you would normally.
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  And some of the people included were more like Albert Einstein or somebody like this, not
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  necessarily they weren't necessarily all artists even.
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  So that's one way.
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  The other way is you've got to work with people who are successful creative people.
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  At the end of the day, it just there has to be some personal transfer where it rubs off and
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  you learn you learn by observing like, oh, this is what a creative artist, a successful
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  creative artist in our society does.
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  This is how they've managed to succeed.
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  You know, there's so many little things to know from how to who to approach, how to approach
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  them, you know, how to present yourself, how to market and brand yourself, which what's a good
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  strategy for you, where should you be performing, you know, where who what kind of
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  people are gonna like the music that you're making, you know, all these kind of things.
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  You say you can't
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  Who would you say is your typical student?
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  Is there a, you know, kind of general idea of of who you're trying to bring in?
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  Or is it really, you know, kind of any artist that's out there that's looking to future proof
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  their own career?
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  At this point, we're mostly working with electronic music producers, sort of, you know,
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  people in their twenties, college age and up.
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  But increasingly, as we expand the program, it's gonna be more and more about branding and
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  marketing and content creation.
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  So because that's such a key part of being an artist now, you know, you have to think about
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  that, I think, from the beginning if you wanna be successful.
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  So we'd like to gradually expand to more and more more and more genres of music.
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  Beautiful.
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  Well, you mentioned pre pro that you're a fellow Midwesterner.
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  Do you feel that, you know, you mentioned you're from the Nebraska area, a little farther
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  south than us.
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  You said Southeast, so around Lincoln and down, you know, in that kind of region.
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  Do you feel that in your career that kind of growing up in the Midwest gave gives you some a
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  a different perspective than someone necessarily that was raised in LA or or or
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  somewhere like that.
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  Do you feel like it gave you an advantage in the music business?
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  It's yeah.
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  It's funny you say that it I actually do feel that way and it was because I think I've come
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  into a lot of different types of situations and I've been able to be very adaptable and kind of
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  respectful of the other people I was around.
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  I feel like it's kind of basic Midwestern niceness.
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  I know Nebraska nice is kind of a cliche but I I found, especially when I was working in Asia,
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  I was working with mostly Asian musicians and typically, they would have encountered some
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  European or American people that were a bit more arrogant about where they were from,
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  maybe.
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  And so I would come into it and just be like, you know what, I'm just a guy.
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  We're all people here having, you know, we're just working on a job together.
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  I'm not I'm just like you.
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  And that attitude went a long way.
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  And I ended up making a lot of friends and getting into a lot of worlds where maybe I
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  wouldn't have been able to if I had a more of an attitude, let's say.
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  And I I think that's so great to hear for so many of our our listeners and the artists that
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  are around us.
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  Obviously, being based in the Midwest ourselves and members of the Midwest Country Music
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  Organization, that, you know, we all feel that people look over us.
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  Right?
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  And that it I think we can look at it as a disadvantage in a lot of ways that we're not
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  near these major markets or we're not, you know, in these bigger scenes, but I have always
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  felt the same as you, that the upbringing and just being maybe a little bit harder people or,
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  you know, not necessarily hard in a bigger sense, but able to deal with things and to deal
• 21:54
  with change.
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  I you know, if you can survive a South Dakota winter, you can survive just about anything.
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  I say, keep the crazies out.
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  I went to school in Minnesota too.
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  So
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  Yeah.
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  You got the full brunt of of a Midwest couple of Midwest winters, at least under your belt.
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  And and whether no matter where you live, you kinda take that with you.
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  So lovely that you could share that with us.
• 22:19
  John, this has been a fascinating conversation.
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  I would definitely love to have you back on sometime and to continue talking about AI.
• 22:29
  But I'd like to let you go.
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  I don't wanna take up too much of your time today.
• 22:32
  So go ahead and plug anything that you'd like to, obviously, the school and let people know
• 22:37
  where they can find you.
• 22:39
  Sure.
• 22:39
  Yeah.
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  Just check out the school.
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  We're at futureproofmusicschool.com.
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  It pretty much explains our whole program there.
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  And you can even talk to our AI Cadence.
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  You can voice call her and talk to her on the on the screen.
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  Incredible stuff.
• 22:56
  Cadence can analyze your mixes and give you help with whatever you wanna know about, but
• 23:03
  like if you wanna if you wanna know how the mix of the frequencies is, she can give you some
• 23:07
  guidance on that and yeah, just go check it out at the website.
• 23:13
  Just absolutely incredible.
• 23:15
  I I have been totally stunned by what I've been hearing, and so nice to know that beyond just
• 23:21
  the flat out production that there there's tools that are out there that are just making
• 23:25
  it a little bit easier.
• 23:26
  And I think that's more of what I view AI is is it is a tool to help me achieve it.
• 23:32
  It is not the end all be all for outsourcing all of my, you know, thoughts and feelings too.
• 23:40
  So, John, thank you so much.
• 23:42
  If I could just say one more thing about that.
• 23:44
  I think the direction that it's all moved in is musicians are interested in having tools, like
• 23:50
  you said, that can make the pieces for them in new ways.
• 23:53
  They don't want it to, like, make the whole song because that's what they wanna do.
• 23:56
  Right?
• 23:57
  That's why we make music.
• 23:58
  But if I can I might use it to make a drumbeat and put something with it?
• 24:02
  So I think that's where it's moving, like, tools.
• 24:06
  Fantastic.
• 24:07
  Well, John, absolutely blessed to have met you today, and thank you for being part of the
• 24:12
  scene.
• 24:13
  Alright.
• 24:13
  Nice to meet you too, Bubba.