Latest / Learned the Hard Way with Kier Gaines / EP 24: Are You Asking Your Partner to Be Your Peace?

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EP 24: Are You Asking Your Partner to Be Your Peace? · Learned the Hard Way with Kier Gaines

0:06
Speaker 1: Welcome to Learn the Hard Way. My name is Keir Gaines.
0:09
Speaker 1: We talk about purpose. We talk about pressure. We talk
0:12
Speaker 1: about what it actually takes to become a full, comprehensive man. Hey,
0:17
Speaker 1: what's good, y'all? Welcome back to another episode of the
0:19
Speaker 1: Learn the Hard Way podcast with me, your host, Keir Gaines.
0:23
Speaker 1: I am your favorite therapist. I am an author of
0:26
Speaker 1: a brand new book called It All Starts When You Do.
0:28
Speaker 1: Please go get your copy. I'm also a son. I am,
0:31
Speaker 1: did I say husband already? Because sometimes I say that
0:34
Speaker 1: about three or four times. And I am a person
0:37
Speaker 1: who had to learn so many lessons the hard way.
0:39
Speaker 1: And one of the, I want to say one of,
0:42
Speaker 1: I say the genesis of this podcast is really having
0:46
Speaker 1: open and honest conversations about those lessons to make sure
0:49
Speaker 1: that you don't have to learn them the hard way too.
0:52
Speaker 1: This place will become the learn together. So thank you
0:54
Speaker 1: for joining. Thank you for all of our followers, all
0:57
Speaker 1: of our, I'm going to say subscribers. I think that's
1:00
Speaker 1: only a YouTube thing. But hey, F it, subscribers. Thank
1:02
Speaker 1: you to everybody who tunes in and listens to this
1:05
Speaker 1: podcast and gets something valuable from it. And I hope
1:07
Speaker 1: that you're taking what you find and you're using that
1:11
Speaker 1: practically in your own lives. To not just make your
1:14
Speaker 1: life more productive, but to actually make it better, to
1:17
Speaker 1: make it feel better on your skin. We, oh boy.
1:23
Speaker 1: Are you tired of hearing about relationships on social media?
1:28
Speaker 1: Are you sick of it? Are you sick of the
1:31
Speaker 1: men do this, women do that stuff? Are you sick
1:34
Speaker 1: of the zero, one and two star comments or ratings
1:39
Speaker 1: on relationships having a predominant voice in the space? Because
1:43
Speaker 1: I am. I am tired of it. And I think
1:47
Speaker 1: that because we all hear the same content, we all
1:50
Speaker 1: make the same content, the same few talking points. And
1:54
Speaker 1: it's just starting to feel very unintelligent and uncreative. And
1:58
Speaker 1: I can't tell one creator from another because everybody sounds
2:01
Speaker 1: the exact same. But one of the things that people
2:04
Speaker 1: are talking about over and over again is, especially in
2:09
Speaker 1: groups of men, is this idea of being someone's piece.
2:14
Speaker 1: Have y'all heard that? You'll hear a lot of men say,
2:18
Speaker 1: I need, we'll take it heteronormative because that's just how
2:21
Speaker 1: I think. But You hear men say, I need a
2:25
Speaker 1: woman to be my peace. I need my girl, my wife,
2:28
Speaker 1: my fiance, my boo, bae joint to be my peace.
2:31
Speaker 1: And that's always a, it's a funny conversation to me.
2:36
Speaker 1: I find it's interesting to say the very least because
2:39
Speaker 1: just in counseling couples and being married for almost seven
2:43
Speaker 1: years and being in community with other couples, I learned
2:48
Speaker 1: that your significant other is not going to be your peace. Sometimes, maybe.
2:53
Speaker 1: A partnership isn't designed necessarily for that person to be
2:59
Speaker 1: your piece by default. And then there's a and that's
3:02
Speaker 1: not because they're a bad person or anything. It's because
3:05
Speaker 1: just by virtue of being in partnership with a person
3:08
Speaker 1: that thinks, believes and acts differently from you, has different interests,
3:14
Speaker 1: different motivations, different proclivities than you. And they they have
3:19
Speaker 1: their own mind, which they are allowed to. And you
3:23
Speaker 1: all are trying to not be one necessarily, but trying
3:26
Speaker 1: to take these two separate lives and have them work
3:29
Speaker 1: in unison. There's going to be conflict there. And conflict
3:33
Speaker 1: is the opposite of peace. You know, not all conflict
3:37
Speaker 1: is bad. I don't want to characterize it that way.
3:40
Speaker 1: But conflict is a healthy thing to have in a relationship.
3:44
Speaker 1: And it should be expected that you're going to have conflict.
3:48
Speaker 1: It's not conflict that makes a relationship bad or unhealthy.
3:52
Speaker 1: It's your inability to resolve the conflict collectively that makes
3:56
Speaker 1: a relationship bad or unhealthy. So today I want to
4:01
Speaker 1: break down and really dive into the be my peace
4:03
Speaker 1: conversation away from the performative stuff, away from hyper affirming
4:11
Speaker 1: one perspective at the elimination of another. Just having a
4:15
Speaker 1: really balanced and honest conversation about what that all means. Now,
4:20
Speaker 1: now be my peace is something that feels very simple
4:25
Speaker 1: on the surface. It feels like just a simple request.
4:27
Speaker 1: I want you to be something that I find I
4:31
Speaker 1: seek refuge in. But it's not that simple. It has
4:34
Speaker 1: so much range that that when we start to talk
4:37
Speaker 1: about in nuanced ways, I guess makes it more of
4:41
Speaker 1: a complicated subject. What does a man mean when he says,
4:46
Speaker 1: I want you to be my peace? I think it
4:48
Speaker 1: depends on who he is, but I see a myriad
4:50
Speaker 1: of different things. Let me break down what I see
4:52
Speaker 1: when I hear that. Some men mean I want a
4:56
Speaker 1: relationship where I feel safe and respected and understood and
5:00
Speaker 1: not constantly at war. I think that's a healthy desire.
5:05
Speaker 1: I think that's a reasonable ask to walk into a
5:08
Speaker 1: relationship with. But let's take it a step deeper into
5:13
Speaker 1: what I see impede peace in relationships, just from a
5:16
Speaker 1: therapist's perspective. I think it's hard to have peace as
5:19
Speaker 1: a man in a relationship where you can't be more
5:22
Speaker 1: tired than your partner is. If you say, I'm tired,
5:25
Speaker 1: they immediately invalidate what you're saying. You're tired, huh? And
5:29
Speaker 1: begin to name all the things they experience that you
5:31
Speaker 1: don't experience in an attempt to maybe speak up for
5:35
Speaker 1: themselves or... illuminate how tired they are while completely de-centering
5:40
Speaker 1: you from your own issues you're tired huh you're not
5:43
Speaker 1: me i had to do you don't do any of
5:46
Speaker 1: that you almost don't deserve to be tired or being
5:49
Speaker 1: upset when they see you napping on the couch um
5:53
Speaker 1: i don't think that you can find a lot of
5:55
Speaker 1: peace that way when you can't be more hurt than
5:58
Speaker 1: your partner when you can't be more sick than your partner,
6:02
Speaker 1: like you can't be ill without, oh, you got a
6:04
Speaker 1: little cold and you acting like a baby. What I
6:05
Speaker 1: had to deal with was A, B, C, D, E, F,
6:08
Speaker 1: going down the list of comparable situations, again, completely de-centering
6:14
Speaker 1: you from this thing that you're feeling that you're trying
6:16
Speaker 1: to express to somebody that you love. I think it's
6:19
Speaker 1: hard to be peaceful when you can't be more upset
6:22
Speaker 1: than your partner. When you're upset about something, but when
6:24
Speaker 1: you share it with your partner, well now you're You
6:28
Speaker 1: can't be upset because now I'm upset that you're upset
6:31
Speaker 1: about that thing. How dare you be upset with that?
6:34
Speaker 1: As if your mental state is some type of indictment
6:38
Speaker 1: on their capabilities as a partner. Like, no, it's not
6:41
Speaker 1: a threat toward you. It's just me vocalizing where I
6:44
Speaker 1: am in the moment. And if it's not safe to
6:46
Speaker 1: do that without you taking away my humanness, that's not
6:50
Speaker 1: a peaceful scenario to be in. But inversely, sometimes it
6:55
Speaker 1: means I don't want to deal with conflict or I
6:57
Speaker 1: don't want to deal with accountability or I don't want
6:59
Speaker 1: to deal with your emotions. You know what I'm saying?
7:03
Speaker 1: Sometimes it means I want you to carry all the
7:06
Speaker 1: emotional weight that I don't really know how to carry myself.
7:10
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want you to decenter me, but
7:13
Speaker 1: I also don't need you making things worse. All of
7:17
Speaker 1: these are coming at us at the same time. But
7:19
Speaker 1: how do we make sense of it? How do we
7:21
Speaker 1: know what's a practical thing? reasonable thing to want inside
7:25
Speaker 1: of our relationships versus something that's way out of there
7:29
Speaker 1: perhaps we're asking for too much or perhaps the way
7:31
Speaker 1: we're seeing this thing is illogical how can you tell
7:35
Speaker 1: how do you know what's what how can you separate
7:37
Speaker 1: the pros from the cons the platinum from the bronze
7:40
Speaker 1: the butter soft shit from the leather on the farm
7:44
Speaker 1: oh y'all don't know jay-z is cool but by the
7:46
Speaker 1: end of this episode you will know and have a
7:48
Speaker 1: better idea of what it means to desire someone To
7:54
Speaker 1: be your peace. Let's talk about it. Let's grow. What
8:00
Speaker 1: if peace isn't something that your partner necessarily gives you?
8:04
Speaker 1: What if peace is something that you learn how to
8:06
Speaker 1: build with your partner, you learn how to build with
8:09
Speaker 1: your community, and most importantly, y'all, it's something that you
8:13
Speaker 1: learn how to build within yourself.
8:16
Speaker 2: Ooh.
8:19
Speaker 1: I feel like when we start... When we start making
8:23
Speaker 1: ourselves responsible for the peace conversation, I feel like it
8:26
Speaker 1: don't get as many clicks and likes. As long as
8:28
Speaker 1: it's someone else's duty and something someone else isn't doing,
8:30
Speaker 1: we can kind of put our hands up and say, hey,
8:33
Speaker 1: you're not being my peace. And I ain't got nothing
8:35
Speaker 1: to do with that. You need to do better. But
8:38
Speaker 1: when the fingers are pointed at us and it's incumbent
8:40
Speaker 1: on us to create, manufacture these things for ourselves, I
8:43
Speaker 1: think it's a lot less sexy. It's a lot less sexy.
8:47
Speaker 1: And it goes from being a desire to being work.
8:49
Speaker 1: And a lot of people don't love doing work. This
8:52
Speaker 1: guy included. I don't always love doing the work, but
8:54
Speaker 1: I see the value in it and I find it necessary.
8:56
Speaker 1: So let's talk through what that means and what it
8:58
Speaker 1: looks like. When a man says and let's let's hold
9:04
Speaker 1: on before we get into this, let's chill on the generalizations.
9:07
Speaker 1: If I generalize, I want you to pull me up
9:10
Speaker 1: because it's so easy. Men do. Women do as if
9:12
Speaker 1: there aren't. Hundreds of millions of people that we're talking
9:15
Speaker 1: about and all these people don't view life in a
9:18
Speaker 1: completely different way than the person next to them. So
9:21
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to be careful around the way
9:23
Speaker 1: that I use language. But a lot of times when
9:26
Speaker 1: a man says, I just want a woman who is
9:29
Speaker 1: my peace. Is he saying that he wants emotional safety?
9:33
Speaker 1: Is he saying that he wants more of a low
9:36
Speaker 1: conflict relationship, which I don't think it's a bad thing
9:39
Speaker 1: as long as you're not avoiding conflict. Is he saying
9:42
Speaker 1: that he doesn't want someone who embarrasses or humiliates him?
9:45
Speaker 1: That's a piece of the male psychology that we don't
9:48
Speaker 1: talk about a lot in partnership. There are a lot
9:50
Speaker 1: of men who feel like they have a partner that
9:52
Speaker 1: will be happy to embarrass, humble, or humiliate them and
9:56
Speaker 1: not see a problem in doing so. Is he talking about...
9:59
Speaker 1: wanting someone that listens to him and i mean actually
10:03
Speaker 1: not hears him but listens to him there's a difference
10:06
Speaker 1: hearing is passive listening is active or is he talking
10:11
Speaker 1: about someone who just simply doesn't make his life harder
10:16
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think the answer to that is yes.
10:19
Speaker 1: Maybe he's talking about some of them. Maybe he's talking
10:21
Speaker 1: about all of them, but they are all very different things.
10:25
Speaker 1: I think it's easy to lump the things you desire
10:28
Speaker 1: into one big gelatinous goo, like one big category. These
10:31
Speaker 1: are the things I want. I ain't asking for too much,
10:33
Speaker 1: but they're not all the same things. And depending on
10:37
Speaker 1: the type of person you're with, it's different levels of
10:39
Speaker 1: difficulty for that person to produce and provide those things
10:42
Speaker 1: for you. So while you're asking, keep in mind while
10:45
Speaker 1: we're asking our partners to do these things, we also
10:47
Speaker 1: have to keep sailing and keep top of mind of
10:50
Speaker 1: who our partners are. And I think one of the
10:52
Speaker 1: most unfair things you could do in a relationship is
10:54
Speaker 1: get with a person who is a particular kind of
10:57
Speaker 1: person and you accept them for who you are and
10:59
Speaker 1: you decide to love them for who they are and
11:02
Speaker 1: love them through who they are. And then all of
11:04
Speaker 1: a sudden you need them to be something completely different. No,
11:09
Speaker 1: you can't do that. You came in this And of course,
11:15
Speaker 1: growing is a part of the process. We need to
11:17
Speaker 1: be with growth capable people, of course. But you can't
11:20
Speaker 1: ask me to be something I've never shown you evidence
11:23
Speaker 1: that I'm able to be after you've already accepted me
11:26
Speaker 1: for who I am. You can need those things and
11:28
Speaker 1: require those things. But what what I would ask as
11:31
Speaker 1: a partner is patience as I acclimate to the gap
11:35
Speaker 1: between what you need me to be and what I'm
11:37
Speaker 1: capable of being in the moment. I think that's an
11:40
Speaker 1: unfair piece of this puzzle. that we don't always apply
11:43
Speaker 1: because there's an urgency on our needs. I need you
11:46
Speaker 1: to do these things. I need you to be these things.
11:48
Speaker 1: And then we get community and conversations with our friends
11:51
Speaker 1: who think very much like we do. And they reinforce that.
11:54
Speaker 1: Then we hop on social media and whatever the thing
11:56
Speaker 1: you believe, whatever you believe, but you hop on social media,
11:59
Speaker 1: you're going to find somebody to affirm it. And it's
12:01
Speaker 1: going to feel like it's a it's a large representation
12:04
Speaker 1: of people that feel that way. But really, it's a
12:06
Speaker 1: vocal minority. It's a very loud, very small group of
12:09
Speaker 1: people who are reverberating some of your innermost thoughts back
12:12
Speaker 1: to you. So that's that's something to keep in mind
12:15
Speaker 1: when we're moving through this conversation and moving through these
12:17
Speaker 1: ideas for show. Now, I think a healthy version of
12:22
Speaker 1: Be My Peace could be, I think of like three
12:24
Speaker 1: different things. I think a healthy version of it could be,
12:27
Speaker 1: I want to come home and feel like you and
12:30
Speaker 1: I are on the same team. That's something I hear
12:33
Speaker 1: a lot. I don't feel like the problem is the problem.
12:36
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm the problem. And I want us
12:41
Speaker 1: to attack the problem together in tandem. I want to
12:43
Speaker 1: be on the same team as you. I think that's
12:45
Speaker 1: one version, a healthy version of Be My Peace. I
12:49
Speaker 1: think another healthy version is saying something to the tune
12:53
Speaker 1: of I want to feel like you're not only hearing me,
12:58
Speaker 1: but you're listening to, you know, I want you to
13:01
Speaker 1: hear me to listen, not hear me to satisfy the
13:04
Speaker 1: fact that you were just present in a moment or
13:06
Speaker 1: not present in a moment. How can I say this?
13:09
Speaker 1: The fact that my words didn't just bounce off an
13:12
Speaker 1: empty wall. There was someone in the room when I
13:13
Speaker 1: was talking. But I want you to actually listen to
13:16
Speaker 1: me and take into consideration who I am and what
13:18
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with. We had a caller a while ago
13:22
Speaker 1: and she said she want her husband to jump into
13:25
Speaker 1: her internal world. And I wish she was right in
13:28
Speaker 1: front of me at the time because I had no
13:30
Speaker 1: idea what that meant. What does it mean to jump
13:33
Speaker 1: into your internal world? But I think a version of
13:35
Speaker 1: that is to actually listen to what I'm saying and
13:38
Speaker 1: internalize it. And I think a third thing that's a
13:41
Speaker 1: really healthy version of Be My Peace is Is I
13:45
Speaker 1: want to know and I think men mean this, but
13:47
Speaker 1: don't always have the faculties, the faculties to articulate it
13:53
Speaker 1: is I want you to know that I want to
13:56
Speaker 1: know that my imperfections won't become your ammunition. And we
14:00
Speaker 1: hear this all the time. We'll hear men say when
14:02
Speaker 1: you're vulnerable, people use it against you. And I think
14:06
Speaker 1: it's easy to write that off. Like, I mean, it's
14:08
Speaker 1: going to happen, but that's not a reason to not
14:10
Speaker 1: be vulnerable. You know, that's a poor excuse to not
14:13
Speaker 1: be vulnerable. And I disagree. I think that's an excellent
14:16
Speaker 1: reason to not be vulnerable. I've been in, man, I've been,
14:22
Speaker 1: I've seen it with my own eyes where couples would
14:26
Speaker 1: say something where the girlfriend, the wife, the fiance, she
14:33
Speaker 1: will say something that cuts so incredibly deep. And It
14:40
Speaker 1: was something that was used in private. Like, let's say
14:42
Speaker 1: a man is insecure because he has a serious mother wounds.
14:46
Speaker 1: His mother constantly. I think that happens a lot is
14:48
Speaker 1: your mom called you dumb growing up. You so stupid.
14:51
Speaker 1: You know, you know, the trope of our boys. You
14:53
Speaker 1: walk in the room. You can't even find a thing
14:54
Speaker 1: right in front of your eyes. I got two daughters.
14:56
Speaker 1: Trust me. The daughters are terrible with that, too. But
15:00
Speaker 1: it's it's a thing like boys are dumb. And there
15:02
Speaker 1: were moms and dads, but there were moms in the 90s.
15:07
Speaker 1: and 80s who would, I mean, like harp on that. Like,
15:10
Speaker 1: you're a dummy. You're a dumbass. My son is a dumbass.
15:14
Speaker 1: And I've seen men tell their partner, like, yeah, my
15:17
Speaker 1: mom always called me stupid and made me feel stupid.
15:19
Speaker 1: And I've seen live in front of my face will say, see,
15:22
Speaker 1: that's why your mom always thought you was stupid because
15:24
Speaker 1: you do dumb shit. And that's why, see, you're such
15:26
Speaker 1: a dummy. Like using that as ammunition. And then the
15:29
Speaker 1: man doesn't say anything. And because men don't often view
15:34
Speaker 1: women challenges is something to try to remedy. They look
15:38
Speaker 1: at challenges, something to try to overcome, like not challenges,
15:41
Speaker 1: but hardships. Endure hardships like a good soldier. Like that's,
15:44
Speaker 1: that's a lot of men's mantra. You don't see, you don't,
15:47
Speaker 1: men don't do a good job of speaking up for themselves. Hey, that,
15:49
Speaker 1: that really hurt me. I don't like when you say that. Instead,
15:53
Speaker 1: you get angry and internalize and nothing, nothing, nothing happens.
15:58
Speaker 1: And hey, who's to say that you won't share that? Hey,
16:01
Speaker 1: I don't like when you say that and it'll stop.
16:03
Speaker 1: It could be quite the opposite. And she just doubles
16:05
Speaker 1: down on that. Now, you don't really know what to do.
16:08
Speaker 1: But I do want to stop undermining the whole the
16:11
Speaker 1: thing that I told you out of straight vulnerability is
16:14
Speaker 1: being used against me. That happens a lot. It happens
16:18
Speaker 1: a lot. But those are healthy versions of my piece.
16:22
Speaker 1: And then when I think of examples like real world examples,
16:26
Speaker 1: I go I'm automatically moved to sitcoms or shows that
16:30
Speaker 1: I saw growing up. so even in there i think
16:33
Speaker 1: there's a pop culture conversation about relationships like like cliff
16:37
Speaker 1: and claire huxtable disclaimer damn bill cosby like it's you
16:42
Speaker 1: can't even mention that dude no more and not feel
16:45
Speaker 1: nasty you know like damn the cosby show was such
16:49
Speaker 1: a staple of black familial excellence and i feel like
16:54
Speaker 1: he He kind of destroyed our ability to talk about
16:57
Speaker 1: that cleanly, man, just by being a nasty dude. Like,
17:01
Speaker 1: that's crazy. I can't believe that. But looking at the
17:05
Speaker 1: Cosby show, the show in and of itself and how
17:10
Speaker 1: Cliff and Claire really exemplified the idea that peace doesn't
17:14
Speaker 1: mean no conflict and peace doesn't mean submission. That's not
17:20
Speaker 1: how they depicted peace in a relationship on that show.
17:24
Speaker 1: The way Peace looked was, you know, Claire was really
17:29
Speaker 1: was ready at the jump to tell Cliff when he
17:31
Speaker 1: was wrong. Cliff, you were wrong about that. You know,
17:34
Speaker 1: their sense of stability, it came from the pillars of
17:40
Speaker 1: a healthy relationship, which is mutual respect and partnership. I
17:44
Speaker 1: got asked, I got interviewed by the Griot yesterday and
17:46
Speaker 1: he asked me, is love enough to sustain a relationship?
17:48
Speaker 1: And I said, hell nah, by itself, hell nah. Why?
17:52
Speaker 1: It's because there's two parts. There's love, the feeling, and
17:56
Speaker 1: there's love, the business. And I think that Claire Huxtable
18:00
Speaker 1: and Cliff Huxtable depicted very well what love, the feeling was,
18:04
Speaker 1: like you could feel it, but love, the business is
18:07
Speaker 1: what was exemplified when the conflict was clear and the
18:12
Speaker 1: conflict wasn't an ultimatum. It was a means to negotiation
18:17
Speaker 1: and both parties kind of using their special tools to
18:21
Speaker 1: to come to a place of mutual understanding. Even if
18:24
Speaker 1: they didn't necessarily agree, they came to a place of
18:27
Speaker 1: mutual understanding, which I think is a real strength for
18:29
Speaker 1: any couple or any two people who are in a partnership.
18:32
Speaker 1: And one more example that I would be remiss if
18:35
Speaker 1: I didn't mention is Martin and Gina. Now, I will
18:39
Speaker 1: say this. As an adult, I go back and look
18:42
Speaker 1: at Martin, and I realize that a lot of times, bro,
18:44
Speaker 1: it's Trevor.
18:45
Speaker 2: Yeah.
18:47
Speaker 1: Bro is tripping. This is one episode where I guess
18:50
Speaker 1: his money was funny or he lost his job. And
18:54
Speaker 1: she was trying so much to just give him the
18:56
Speaker 1: space to be a man. I guess that's how you
18:59
Speaker 1: would frame it. And he was so insecure about it
19:03
Speaker 1: that he started stepping over himself, stepping over her. Nah,
19:06
Speaker 1: I got her because I'm going to be all right.
19:08
Speaker 1: You know, he was kind of trying to puff his
19:10
Speaker 1: chest out to make him feel better about himself because
19:13
Speaker 1: his financial situation wasn't where it needed to be. And
19:16
Speaker 1: that was a huge conflict in their relationship that eventually
19:18
Speaker 1: got resolved. But I think the attempt to be someone's
19:22
Speaker 1: piece was there. But the receptiveness wasn't, you know, Gina
19:26
Speaker 1: was trying to be like, hey, I got you. It's OK, babe.
19:28
Speaker 1: We can figure this out together. But when when masculine
19:33
Speaker 1: identity is so steep in that protective provider role and
19:36
Speaker 1: everything else just seems ancillary. Once that disappears, you have nothing,
19:42
Speaker 1: you know, and you can see that. They were funny together,
19:46
Speaker 1: but on another level, they were deeply connected to one
19:49
Speaker 1: another and man i think like the the constant competition
19:55
Speaker 1: in an escalation that happens in relationships especially with martin
20:00
Speaker 1: and gina man it can contrast with what i would
20:03
Speaker 1: call healthy disagreement and what healthy disagreement is Is when
20:09
Speaker 1: you all don't see eye to eye. You all don't agree.
20:13
Speaker 1: You all have two completely different ideas of what should happen,
20:17
Speaker 1: what did happen and what needs to happen next. And
20:21
Speaker 1: those two ideas compete with each other. They don't play
20:24
Speaker 1: well together. And in healthy disagreement, both people can sit
20:30
Speaker 1: on opposite sides of an idea of what solution or
20:33
Speaker 1: what better looks like without making each other the enemy.
20:37
Speaker 1: Something to think about. I really do believe that a
20:47
Speaker 1: large part of peace is knowing that you really can
20:51
Speaker 1: experience conflict in your relationship without actually losing the relationship
20:57
Speaker 1: or without the constant fear that this conflict is going
21:01
Speaker 1: to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's
21:03
Speaker 1: going to be over after this. We're going to disagree
21:05
Speaker 1: and you're going to walk your separate ways because then
21:07
Speaker 1: you can't disagree authentically. You're disagreeing from a place of
21:10
Speaker 1: fear and apprehension. You can't say the thing that needs
21:12
Speaker 1: to be said authentically. for fear of what the repercussions
21:15
Speaker 1: of it are going to be. And if ever there's
21:17
Speaker 1: a conversation and there's a thing that needs to be
21:20
Speaker 1: said that will be helpful to some solution finding in
21:23
Speaker 1: that conversation, and it doesn't get said, the relationship gets
21:26
Speaker 1: cheated because there's an opportunity to have a perspective shift
21:29
Speaker 1: that never happens because there's fear distorted sense of fear maybe,
21:35
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter if fear is distorted. When you
21:37
Speaker 1: feel it, you feel it. And there's a sense of
21:39
Speaker 1: fear that this thing is going to go away. I'm
21:40
Speaker 1: going to lose something that really matters to me because
21:43
Speaker 1: of something that I say. And that can be a
21:45
Speaker 1: tricky line, man. You don't know whether the next step
21:48
Speaker 1: gets you closer to the mountaintop or closer to the
21:50
Speaker 1: edge of the cliff. And if I had the answer
21:52
Speaker 1: for that, man, I'd be a billionaire dating coach. So
21:56
Speaker 1: those are some of the risks that we take with love.
21:58
Speaker 1: You never, you never know what your contribution to that
22:02
Speaker 1: conversation is going to do. So that's why it's important
22:04
Speaker 1: to have these touch points and talk to each other
22:07
Speaker 1: and do conflict resolution outside of big blow ups when
22:10
Speaker 1: the stakes are really low. Now, let's let's move into
22:14
Speaker 1: a part of this conversation that, you know what I say,
22:18
Speaker 1: we talk about very widely, but not very deeply. And
22:22
Speaker 1: that's when Be My Peace in quotation marks becomes Manage Me.
22:28
Speaker 1: I've seen this dynamic play out in relationships a lot.
22:32
Speaker 1: And I've come to the conclusion that there is a
22:35
Speaker 1: faction of men who aren't necessarily looking for peace. They're
22:39
Speaker 1: looking for relief. Not looking for peace. They're looking for relief.
22:45
Speaker 1: And in my mind, peace is something that brings a
22:47
Speaker 1: sense of harmony. Relief is something that stops the pain
22:53
Speaker 1: from overtaking you. You know, peace to me is that
22:58
Speaker 1: I hope this lands. I don't know. We're going to
23:00
Speaker 1: do an analogy. You're going to see how it works.
23:02
Speaker 1: But peace to me is having a free day and
23:06
Speaker 1: being in the park and enjoying the world around me
23:09
Speaker 1: without the gravitational pull of time or expectations. It's peace.
23:15
Speaker 1: I can just be. I can just exist without the
23:17
Speaker 1: negative thing hanging over me. Relief is like when my
23:21
Speaker 1: lower back is falling off the bone in pain and
23:25
Speaker 1: I finally get a chance to sit down and put
23:27
Speaker 1: a pillow behind. It stops the pain from overtaking me.
23:31
Speaker 1: It stops the pain from being the only thing that
23:33
Speaker 1: I can fixate on or think about. And I think
23:36
Speaker 1: if you're asking for peace in your relationship, but what
23:39
Speaker 1: you really want is relief, I think it puts an
23:41
Speaker 1: unfair amount of pressure on your partner to do something.
23:44
Speaker 1: And the thing that they do to relieve, oh my gosh,
23:48
Speaker 1: it's unsustainable. You can't always do that or be that
23:51
Speaker 1: for a person. And when that disappears, what do I
23:54
Speaker 1: become to when I can't relieve you of your pain anymore?
23:58
Speaker 1: How do you look at me and how do you
23:59
Speaker 1: treat me? And when you have stress from money and
24:03
Speaker 1: friendships and identity and fatherhood and health and life, and
24:06
Speaker 1: you come home and you expect your partner to be
24:08
Speaker 1: the place where all of that disappears, the relief from
24:11
Speaker 1: all of these stresses that you deal with in the world.
24:14
Speaker 1: And because a relationship is where you feel your safest,
24:18
Speaker 1: of course, that's where you feel your safest. This faction
24:21
Speaker 1: of men, they start putting everything there they put everything
24:27
Speaker 1: on the man or their relationship so she becomes your
24:30
Speaker 1: therapist she becomes your best friend she becomes the person
24:33
Speaker 1: you vent to she becomes the person who who has
24:38
Speaker 1: to understand you she becomes the person who has to
24:41
Speaker 1: calm you down and talk you off of the ledge
24:44
Speaker 1: she becomes the person who has to make you feel
24:46
Speaker 1: wanted needed and desired She's the person who's expected to
24:50
Speaker 1: know what's wrong with you, even though you don't necessarily
24:53
Speaker 1: say it out loud. It can be a lot. And
24:57
Speaker 1: then be my peace carries over and it means something
25:01
Speaker 1: different now. And it means carry my emotional life for me.
25:06
Speaker 1: I need you to carry these things. And it compounds
25:09
Speaker 1: that that's an expectation. That's what a partner is supposed
25:11
Speaker 1: to do, right? You're supposed to carry these things for me.
25:15
Speaker 1: I will argue absolutely not. Absolutely not. And my wife today,
25:20
Speaker 1: the reason that we so locked in is because we
25:22
Speaker 1: both carry our own emotional shit. Like I will. I've
25:26
Speaker 1: been into her the other day. I'm like, babe, I
25:27
Speaker 1: just need I just need somebody to talk to for
25:29
Speaker 1: like three minutes. Can you give me a solid three?
25:31
Speaker 1: Of course, it turned into 15. But guess what? Just
25:34
Speaker 1: a few days ago, she came in. She had a
25:37
Speaker 1: she had a night out. She's like, babe, I need
25:38
Speaker 1: to I need to talk. All right, cool. We sat
25:41
Speaker 1: in the bathroom for an hour and 15 minutes and
25:43
Speaker 1: we talked. And I just let her talk about her.
25:45
Speaker 1: I didn't have anything to say. It wasn't about me.
25:47
Speaker 1: It's just about life in general. But you need those things.
25:50
Speaker 1: You need somebody to be in community with that you
25:55
Speaker 1: feel that you feel is safe and capable of helping
26:00
Speaker 1: you hold the stuff. But there's a difference between helping
26:02
Speaker 1: you hold and understand something versus relying on them to
26:06
Speaker 1: be that for you. You know, I'm not asking her
26:10
Speaker 1: to carry it for me. I'm asking her to tell
26:12
Speaker 1: me what she sees when I talk so that I
26:15
Speaker 1: can better carry my own stuff. You see, so I
26:18
Speaker 1: can see the things that live in my blind self.
26:21
Speaker 1: Be my peace doesn't mean hold all my shit. It's
26:25
Speaker 1: my luggage, man. I grab it from the carousel. I
26:27
Speaker 1: put it in my trunk. I drive it home. I
26:30
Speaker 1: take it home. I unpack my luggage. I wash all
26:33
Speaker 1: the clothes inside and fold them and put them away.
26:35
Speaker 1: That's my stuff to own. And the second that it
26:38
Speaker 1: becomes hers, It becomes another thing living inside of our
26:41
Speaker 1: relationship that becomes a point of contention. You don't want
26:44
Speaker 1: too much. You don't want nobody living in your house
26:46
Speaker 1: for too long. You don't want shit living in your
26:47
Speaker 1: relationship for too long. Now, while there is a faction
26:52
Speaker 1: of men that have an over-reliance on their partner to
26:55
Speaker 1: carry this stuff. I mean, this ain't bro science. There's
26:58
Speaker 1: data to back it. There's plenty of data to back this.
27:01
Speaker 1: But that's just one faction. There's a completely different faction
27:05
Speaker 1: of men that none of that applies to for real.
27:08
Speaker 1: And this faction of men doesn't get the spotlight as often.
27:12
Speaker 1: There's this thing that happens in the inverse, and I've
27:14
Speaker 1: seen it in therapy a billion times. That's overspeak. It
27:17
Speaker 1: hasn't been a billion, but just indulge me, okay? I've
27:20
Speaker 1: seen it happen in therapy a billion times where the
27:23
Speaker 1: inverse exists, and it's where a woman wants you to
27:27
Speaker 1: be there for her. You hear in heterosexual couples, and
27:31
Speaker 1: this is not just in heterosexual couples. It happens to everybody.
27:34
Speaker 1: But let's just focus on this aspect for right now.
27:37
Speaker 1: There's a thing that happens where a woman will say, yo,
27:42
Speaker 1: you got to let me in. Like there are men
27:45
Speaker 1: who are too reliant on their partners, but there are
27:47
Speaker 1: also men who are, who don't rely on their partners
27:50
Speaker 1: for nothing. It's hard for them to allow someone to
27:53
Speaker 1: be there for them. And she'll say, you need to
27:57
Speaker 1: let me be there. You got to open up. You
27:58
Speaker 1: got to let me in. You got to let me help.
28:00
Speaker 1: You got to let me be there for you.
28:02
Speaker 2: And.
28:03
Speaker 1: That requires trust. You got to trust me to be
28:06
Speaker 1: there for you. And that can be a large gap
28:07
Speaker 1: depending on what this man's lived experience is. It could
28:10
Speaker 1: be hard for him to do. But that kind of changes.
28:15
Speaker 1: And I've seen this in session. That changes when her
28:18
Speaker 1: definition of allowing me to be there for you is
28:21
Speaker 1: really specific to the way she thinks. And her definition
28:25
Speaker 1: is kind of you externalizing the things that give her
28:28
Speaker 1: insight into how you take what you think and how
28:31
Speaker 1: you work. But man, it's different. When it's a challenge
28:36
Speaker 1: that you're dealing with that implicates her in part of
28:39
Speaker 1: the problem and it becomes less, I want you to
28:42
Speaker 1: open up. And now it's, oh, now this is a
28:46
Speaker 1: thing that's about me. I'm implicated. What did I do wrong?
28:50
Speaker 1: Which I think is a natural. It's a natural question
28:53
Speaker 1: to ask. But it derails the conversation and it decenters
28:58
Speaker 1: the person who's the most in pain. And then the
29:01
Speaker 1: phenomenon happens with, well, now I explain why I'm upset.
29:04
Speaker 1: But now you're upset that I'm upset. And now all
29:10
Speaker 1: of my energy needs to go to making you feel better.
29:14
Speaker 1: And that happens so often when you ask me to
29:18
Speaker 1: open up. There will be a session. She'll be like,
29:21
Speaker 1: I need you to open up. I need you to
29:22
Speaker 1: open up. I need you to open up. I need
29:24
Speaker 1: you to be more vulnerable. I need you to let
29:25
Speaker 1: me be there for you. And then when he does,
29:28
Speaker 1: she is completely ill-equipped to handle it. She does not
29:32
Speaker 1: have it. And now she doesn't feel safe. Now, she
29:37
Speaker 1: doesn't feel safe when you express those things. What do
29:40
Speaker 1: you learn in a relationship when your vulnerability equals a
29:45
Speaker 1: lack of safety for your partner? And I'm not saying
29:47
Speaker 1: that it is unsafe. There's no, it's not like your
29:51
Speaker 1: stereotypical verbal abuse or anything like that. It's just, oh,
29:55
Speaker 1: now I don't feel the comfort of knowing that everything
29:57
Speaker 1: is okay because you've made it clear to me that
29:59
Speaker 1: everything's not. And I don't know what to do with that.
30:03
Speaker 1: I don't know how to handle that. I feel unprepared
30:07
Speaker 1: and me feeling unprepared gives me some really big feelings
30:10
Speaker 1: that I need to sit with right now. I don't, I,
30:14
Speaker 1: I just, I don't have it for you like I
30:16
Speaker 1: thought I did. And I've spent all this time requesting
30:19
Speaker 1: you to be this thing that I don't desire as
30:22
Speaker 1: much as I thought I did. And that I don't
30:25
Speaker 1: have the skills, the tools, the know-how, or really the
30:30
Speaker 1: inclination to sit with that. That's challenging. That's challenging. And
30:37
Speaker 1: it can be very hard for a couple to bounce
30:39
Speaker 1: back from that. It's possible, but it can be hard. So,
30:43
Speaker 1: Here's why these two factions happen. This is why this
30:46
Speaker 1: goes down. There are a lot of men that were
30:51
Speaker 1: never taught. And I'm not going to say taught because
30:54
Speaker 1: I don't know if a lot of us are taught.
30:56
Speaker 1: I'm going to say culturalized because taught is kind of
30:59
Speaker 1: explicit and culturalized is implicit. We learn just as much
31:03
Speaker 1: from the way our environments treat us as we do
31:06
Speaker 1: from people sitting us on their knees and giving us
31:08
Speaker 1: the step by step. But a lot of men were
31:11
Speaker 1: never culturalized to build emotional endurance in relationships. Well, no,
31:18
Speaker 1: let me, let me change that. That's not what I mean.
31:20
Speaker 1: A lot of men would never culturalize to build emotionally
31:25
Speaker 1: intimate friendships. That is. And even in some of my friendships,
31:28
Speaker 1: when some of them are very intimate and you got
31:31
Speaker 1: the homies who you could do that with, but man,
31:33
Speaker 1: a lot of dudes just can't go there. They just,
31:35
Speaker 1: they don't have it. They never experienced it. No one's
31:38
Speaker 1: ever been that for them. So they never learned how
31:40
Speaker 1: to even want that for themselves. or spent a long
31:43
Speaker 1: time denying that they want that, and they just can't
31:46
Speaker 1: give it to you. Like, you have a vulnerable moment,
31:50
Speaker 1: and they immediately deflect. Damn, man, you're going to be
31:52
Speaker 1: all right, though. What's the joint they always hit you with? Man,
31:56
Speaker 1: you know, God gives his biggest wars to his strongest soldiers. Like, man,
31:59
Speaker 1: I ain't trying to hear that shit. That is not
32:02
Speaker 1: what I came to you for, man. I want to
32:04
Speaker 1: know that you understand and empathize with me. And that's
32:07
Speaker 1: a lot to ask of some dudes, and I've grown
32:09
Speaker 1: to understand that. You know, these two factions also happen
32:14
Speaker 1: because their partner may genuinely be the first person they've
32:18
Speaker 1: ever felt safe being vulnerable around. Maybe the first person
32:24
Speaker 1: who they ever felt safe being their full emotional selves with,
32:28
Speaker 1: you know, men can be socialized, suppress emotion until they
32:32
Speaker 1: get home. You got to wear the face, the mask. We,
32:35
Speaker 1: We did an episode earlier in this pod. I think
32:38
Speaker 1: it's like episode one of the first couple, man. Maybe
32:41
Speaker 1: one of the first five or six where I talked
32:43
Speaker 1: about the cool pose. How black men specifically have to
32:47
Speaker 1: have this facade of unbotheredness and coolness just to survive.
32:51
Speaker 1: And your home is supposed to be the only place
32:53
Speaker 1: where you let the mask down. If you let the
32:57
Speaker 1: mask down where another person dwells, it could be, man,
33:00
Speaker 1: a super highway to them being the person that gets
33:02
Speaker 1: a brunt of the nastiest things that you deal with.
33:05
Speaker 1: You know, Nina, I think it was Nina Simone and
33:08
Speaker 1: James Baldwin actually had a great conversation about that. And
33:14
Speaker 1: one more that's come into mind, the reason that these
33:16
Speaker 1: two factions happen. If a romantic relationship can be the
33:21
Speaker 1: only place where you're allowed to be emotionally needy, and
33:28
Speaker 1: I needy is a bad word with men. I know
33:30
Speaker 1: somebody heard that, shriveled up a little bit. But if
33:33
Speaker 1: a relationship is the only place where you've learned that
33:36
Speaker 1: I can, I can see how you can put too
33:42
Speaker 1: much pressure on your partner to be the de facto
33:45
Speaker 1: for that, to be your go-to. You know, if you
33:48
Speaker 1: never learned how to self-regulate, your partner can unintentionally become
33:53
Speaker 1: the default, the primary regulator. I hear so many women say,
33:57
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not his mom. I'm not his mom.
34:00
Speaker 1: I'm your partner, not your mom. And I think that's
34:03
Speaker 1: where that comes from, where you are too dependent on
34:05
Speaker 1: me to co-regulate with you. And while I can do that,
34:11
Speaker 1: when it becomes my job and then you define being
34:14
Speaker 1: your piece by how often I do, I perform that duty.
34:19
Speaker 1: It wears me out after a while. It wears me
34:24
Speaker 1: out after a while. I don't have it to do
34:26
Speaker 1: that all the time. And it's unfair to our relationship
34:28
Speaker 1: for that to be an expectation. So I want you
34:30
Speaker 1: to take a moment, and this ain't an opportunity for
34:33
Speaker 1: you to feel shame, blame, or guilt, because that's not
34:35
Speaker 1: what we're doing. I'm just making you aware. I want
34:38
Speaker 1: you to think about if and how you do that
34:41
Speaker 1: in your relationship. I want to go back to that person,
34:44
Speaker 1: the woman who left the voice message, where she said,
34:46
Speaker 1: I want him to join me in my internal world.
34:49
Speaker 1: Are you asking him to co-regulate with you? What are
34:52
Speaker 1: you asking for exactly? What is the request that you're
34:55
Speaker 1: making out of your partner? If your woman is the
34:57
Speaker 1: only person you can call when you're having a bad day.
35:02
Speaker 1: Who do you call when she's the reason that you're
35:04
Speaker 1: having a bad day? That's a problem. You know, my
35:09
Speaker 1: wife came to me the other day. She said, babe,
35:10
Speaker 1: I love you so much. We could talk about anything.
35:13
Speaker 1: But damn, I need to talk to somebody else because
35:15
Speaker 1: sometimes I need to talk to you about you and
35:18
Speaker 1: you can't help me. And I didn't even get mad.
35:20
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, facts. I understand. I understand. And there's
35:24
Speaker 1: a very healthy version of this that exists. I don't
35:26
Speaker 1: want to just negatively frame it. There's a healthy version
35:28
Speaker 1: of this that exists in a healthy relationship. When your
35:31
Speaker 1: person is, man, when you are in a really healthy
35:34
Speaker 1: and secure and honest and nutritious, vibrant, fulfilling relationship. And
35:42
Speaker 1: you and that person, y'all just got a thing of understanding.
35:45
Speaker 1: I mean, like this honesty and this truth and this
35:47
Speaker 1: trust in your relationship. Y'all completely naked in front of
35:49
Speaker 1: each other, you know, metaphorically. Once you build that environment
35:54
Speaker 1: inside of your relationship, the outside world is so weird
35:57
Speaker 1: and people are so dishonest and inauthentic that it kind
36:00
Speaker 1: of forces you back to your person. Like you're the
36:02
Speaker 1: least weird person I know. You're the only person I
36:05
Speaker 1: feel like is telling me an emotional truth and you're
36:07
Speaker 1: being honest. And that also puts too much pressure on
36:10
Speaker 1: the relationship because once you have that in your relationship,
36:13
Speaker 1: talking to other people in the world just feels frivolous sometimes.
36:17
Speaker 1: Wanted to throw that out there for the healthy lovers.
36:20
Speaker 1: In the world, it's not all bad, man. Not all
36:22
Speaker 1: relationship reviews are zero stars. It's just people with four
36:24
Speaker 1: or five star reviews. They rarely make content or they
36:28
Speaker 1: rarely speak out on threads. They're too busy sustaining those
36:31
Speaker 1: healthy relationships they have. So we have a slanted perspective
36:33
Speaker 1: on what's going on out there. Hey, hold on, y'all.
36:43
Speaker 1: Real quick. My very first book, It All Starts When
36:46
Speaker 1: You Do, is available right now. If this podcast has
36:49
Speaker 1: ever helped you, I think this book will, too. I
36:51
Speaker 1: want you to just search It All Starts When You
36:54
Speaker 1: Do by Keir Gaines, wherever you get your books. Moving
36:58
Speaker 1: the conversation forward, I do want to spend a little
37:01
Speaker 1: bit of time talking about building a life that has value.
37:06
Speaker 1: more than one place to put your pain my daughter's
37:09
Speaker 1: going to pre-k my baby girl a pre-k y'all i
37:12
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it because i'm gonna start
37:14
Speaker 1: crying but in pre-k i can't help but notice when
37:19
Speaker 1: i walk into class the first thing you see is
37:21
Speaker 1: cubby holes they have a cubby for everything there's a
37:24
Speaker 1: cubby for your toys there's a cubby for your coat
37:26
Speaker 1: there's a cubby for your boots there's a cubby for
37:28
Speaker 1: your book bag cubby cubby cubby cubby cubby and i
37:31
Speaker 1: think that's such a dope metaphor for life Because like
37:35
Speaker 1: you always, you need a place to put your stuff.
37:37
Speaker 1: You need a place to put your pain that's outside
37:40
Speaker 1: of your heart and your mind. Your pain needs somewhere
37:43
Speaker 1: to go. So the question is, Kier, if I need
37:46
Speaker 1: somewhere to put my pain, well, not only where do
37:49
Speaker 1: I put it, bro, but how do I do it?
37:53
Speaker 1: That's a good question. And let's break that down a
37:56
Speaker 1: little bit. I don't believe that you need to need
38:00
Speaker 1: your partner less. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying
38:03
Speaker 1: that you need to stop needing your partner for everything.
38:07
Speaker 1: I look up and I have friends and loved ones
38:08
Speaker 1: that I realize I've never seen them not in a relationship.
38:12
Speaker 1: And my first question is always, who are you outside
38:15
Speaker 1: of being partnered with someone? Of course, we have terms
38:18
Speaker 1: and diagnoses for those type of things, but we're not
38:20
Speaker 1: even going there. We just observe it. What are you
38:24
Speaker 1: when you stop needing your partner for everything? What is
38:28
Speaker 1: your relationship? You know, I believe a healthy relationship can
38:32
Speaker 1: absolutely be one of the most important, one of the
38:36
Speaker 1: most vital sources of support in a man's life.
38:41
Speaker 2: 100%.
38:42
Speaker 1: But that support is supposed to work alongside other sources
38:47
Speaker 1: like community and connection. It's not designed to be the
38:53
Speaker 1: singular linchpin of your relationship. That's asking a lot. You know,
38:59
Speaker 1: if the load on that hook on your wall, if
39:03
Speaker 1: the load is five pounds, like you're supposed to just
39:05
Speaker 1: put a picture up there. But you hang in a
39:09
Speaker 1: 35 pound book bag up there that that the hook
39:12
Speaker 1: can't handle that. And the hook is going to fall
39:14
Speaker 1: and everything inside the book bag is going to smash
39:16
Speaker 1: against the floor. And if you don't think that that
39:19
Speaker 1: also applies to your relationship, I am begging you to reconsider.
39:23
Speaker 1: So what does the other support look like? How do
39:25
Speaker 1: you make sure that that hook you're not just putting
39:28
Speaker 1: your book back on one hook, you're putting it on multiple,
39:31
Speaker 1: you're spreading out the load that is being buried on
39:35
Speaker 1: the thing that's supposed to hold it up. Well, let's
39:39
Speaker 1: look at friends. Let's look at your family. Let's look
39:42
Speaker 1: at therapy. Let's look at faith. Let's look at community.
39:45
Speaker 1: Mentors and hobbies and physical activities and creative outlets in
39:48
Speaker 1: time by yourself. In time by yourself, with yourself, alone
39:55
Speaker 1: with your thoughts, without anybody else to distract you. I
39:58
Speaker 1: think that's one of the ways that you learn who
40:01
Speaker 1: you are and how you tick. And the goal is
40:04
Speaker 1: it's not really to build a life. Well, I know.
40:08
Speaker 1: I guess it is. I guess the goal is to
40:10
Speaker 1: build a life where your partner is a part of
40:13
Speaker 1: your piece, but not necessarily responsible for all of it.
40:18
Speaker 1: And I may perhaps that's the piece that we miss
40:21
Speaker 1: in the conversation. You can be a part of my piece.
40:26
Speaker 1: You are part of that tool kit. But I cannot
40:30
Speaker 1: afford to rely on you for all of it. That
40:33
Speaker 1: is unfair to you and that is unfair to me.
40:36
Speaker 1: And if something is unfair to both parties in a
40:39
Speaker 1: system where there are only two parties that matter, that
40:42
Speaker 1: is a great indication that that thing is not working.
40:45
Speaker 1: And if you have something that is not working, you
40:48
Speaker 1: have to figure out how to fix it before it
40:50
Speaker 1: becomes corrosive and it starts eating your relationship from the
40:53
Speaker 1: inside out. You know, when people come and they, you know,
40:59
Speaker 1: they're talking about divorce or uncoupling or the partnership just
41:04
Speaker 1: ain't working anymore. I've never seen an instance where it
41:06
Speaker 1: just happens overnight. I've never seen one. It might feel
41:11
Speaker 1: like it just happened overnight. But in all actuality, these
41:14
Speaker 1: are things that have been in play for some time.
41:16
Speaker 1: They've been in play for some time. They are corrosive
41:19
Speaker 1: and they eat your relationship from the inside out. By
41:21
Speaker 1: the time you realize that it's happening. Or you snap
41:24
Speaker 1: to where you can finally hear your partner talk about
41:26
Speaker 1: how it's happening because you you you you've been hearing it,
41:30
Speaker 1: but you haven't really been listening. It's almost too late.
41:33
Speaker 1: That person is too far gone. They're just ready to
41:35
Speaker 1: get out. And reconciliation doesn't happen when only one party
41:38
Speaker 1: is interested. So the goal, again, is to build a
41:42
Speaker 1: life where your partners are part of your peace, but
41:45
Speaker 1: they are not your peace in and of themselves. So
41:51
Speaker 1: this is the part of the episode where y'all know
41:54
Speaker 1: we be having our mailbag episodes. I think we got
41:56
Speaker 1: another one coming up pretty soon. But in between, I'm
41:58
Speaker 1: always asking y'all to leave me messages. Talk to me.
42:02
Speaker 1: What you got going on? What's on your mind? What's
42:04
Speaker 1: on your heart? And today I have one that is
42:07
Speaker 1: aligned with what we're talking about here in this episode.
42:12
Speaker 1: So let's listen to it real quick and then I'll respond.
42:16
Speaker 1: And I'm curious to know what y'all think about this.
42:20
Speaker 1: But let's hear this person out and, yeah, let's see
42:23
Speaker 1: what we come up with together. Here we go.
42:25
Speaker 2: First off, I want to say thank you, thank you,
42:27
Speaker 2: thank you. The willingness to be able to put us
42:30
Speaker 2: on your back and be able to help us grow.
42:33
Speaker 2: As a black man that didn't have father figure to
42:36
Speaker 2: create my own idea, you know, things slipped through the cracks.
42:40
Speaker 2: And so being able to hear things makes everything worth
42:43
Speaker 2: it right now. So to go ahead and get my
42:47
Speaker 2: question off, my wife cheated. After she cheated, she's an
42:50
Speaker 2: avoiding type. I'm an anxious type. So she has a
42:53
Speaker 2: really hard time leaning in. The more I pursue, the
42:57
Speaker 2: more she pulls away. But I've gotten to the point
43:01
Speaker 2: to where I carried this thing for a year, rebuilding
43:04
Speaker 2: and repairing without my injury being healed. So I recently
43:09
Speaker 2: became emotionally tired. Almost to where I'm just at my
43:14
Speaker 2: wits end. Once the therapy session shot up, Something clicked
43:18
Speaker 2: for her. But now for me, it's really hard to receive.
43:22
Speaker 2: I don't want to be the person that is watching
43:25
Speaker 2: her try and I can't receive it.
43:29
Speaker 1: Because I feel like evidence is needed.
43:33
Speaker 2: But what I don't want to do is make every
43:37
Speaker 2: moment she's trying to show evidence a verdict. So I'm
43:39
Speaker 2: trying to understand how can I be more receptive? How
43:42
Speaker 2: can I be able to receive? In this process of rebuilding,
43:47
Speaker 2: I learned what empathy was. And I've empathized to a
43:50
Speaker 2: level to where her thing was communication and how dismissive
43:55
Speaker 2: and deflective I was when all I was trying to
43:57
Speaker 2: do is make her not leave me. And I didn't
44:00
Speaker 2: understand it until therapy. So I can only imagine having
44:05
Speaker 2: to deal with that years and years and years of
44:10
Speaker 2: being in a marriage, feeling small, feeling unheard, And so
44:14
Speaker 2: it made me be able to go through this year
44:18
Speaker 2: and fight as hard as I can to try to
44:20
Speaker 2: rebuild and repair. So I understand why things were hard,
44:24
Speaker 2: but I also don't understand why the effort wasn't put in.
44:28
Speaker 2: The homework wasn't done with therapy. You weren't leaning in.
44:31
Speaker 2: You weren't being vulnerable and transparent. Over time, that changed,
44:35
Speaker 2: but it didn't really get to a point to where
44:39
Speaker 2: she wanted to rebuild the romantic connection. She would hide
44:43
Speaker 2: behind the marriage. but not participate in the romantic part.
44:48
Speaker 2: The compartmentalization was there. So again, just wanting to know
44:52
Speaker 2: how I can be more receptive, let the evidence show
44:56
Speaker 2: without having that distrust there.
44:58
Speaker 1: I really want to be able to receive what she's giving.
45:02
Speaker 1: There is a lot there. There, there, there is so
45:08
Speaker 1: much there that this can honestly be its own episode.
45:15
Speaker 1: Give me a second, man, because I need to I
45:18
Speaker 1: need to process everything you said to me. So, OK,
45:23
Speaker 1: I'll start here. And in my book, I tell a
45:30
Speaker 1: story of a man named Charles and Charles is this.
45:36
Speaker 1: And this may not all apply to you, bro, but
45:38
Speaker 1: just just indulge me for a second. Charles is a
45:42
Speaker 1: man who came to therapy because his wife cheated. And
45:46
Speaker 1: Charles was a deeply religious man. And what Charles was
45:51
Speaker 1: trying to do was be, he was trying to learn
45:55
Speaker 1: how to, I guess, forgive his wife in some ways.
46:00
Speaker 1: But Charles didn't come to therapy asking me to forgive his,
46:04
Speaker 1: he wanted to learn how to forgive his wife. Charles
46:08
Speaker 1: wanted to find a way to not be angry anymore.
46:16
Speaker 1: The problem with Charles not wanting to be angry anymore
46:20
Speaker 1: is Charles couldn't admit this thing that I call an
46:24
Speaker 1: uncomfortable truth. And Charles's uncomfortable truth is that he couldn't
46:29
Speaker 1: get past something bad that happened to him. He couldn't
46:35
Speaker 1: couldn't get past the infidelity. He couldn't get past the
46:38
Speaker 1: lack of her trying after he couldn't. get fully comfortable
46:43
Speaker 1: vocalizing all the ways that he felt betrayed. He didn't
46:48
Speaker 1: sit inside the emotional experience of that betrayal. Instead, he
46:53
Speaker 1: started intellectualizing and using a lot of words and starting
46:57
Speaker 1: to use justifications for maybe why she did what she
47:00
Speaker 1: did and not admitting to himself that perhaps he needed
47:04
Speaker 1: some space to process what was going on. He didn't
47:07
Speaker 1: give himself a space to feel angry because he jumped
47:10
Speaker 1: immediately into solution mode. And what happened to Charles is
47:15
Speaker 1: Charles eventually stopped coming to therapy. Probably shouldn't tell that
47:18
Speaker 1: part of the book, but fuck it, we here. We here, man.
47:25
Speaker 1: And when I hear you talking to me, there's just,
47:30
Speaker 1: I can't help but feel like a piece is missing.
47:33
Speaker 1: And maybe it's because I only got a short clip.
47:36
Speaker 1: I don't know. But there's a chunk missing somewhere. I
47:40
Speaker 1: think you jumped to a repair piece and you jumped
47:45
Speaker 1: into solution oriented thinking. But I wonder like the artifacts
47:55
Speaker 1: of what happened to you. I wonder if you really
47:59
Speaker 1: allow yourself. I'm not going to say allow yourself to
48:01
Speaker 1: feel that sounds too hippy dippy therapist. But I wonder
48:05
Speaker 1: if you process that thing. I can't help. Are you upset?
48:10
Speaker 1: Like what are the negative emotions that you feel? Are
48:13
Speaker 1: you angry? Are you frustrated? I know you said that,
48:18
Speaker 1: you know, she doesn't seem very interested in the partnership piece.
48:21
Speaker 1: I want to know what message that's sending you. And look,
48:23
Speaker 1: I'm not leading you anywhere because I don't I don't
48:25
Speaker 1: know her. I don't know you. I don't know what happened.
48:29
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're talking a lot about what you think.
48:33
Speaker 1: And I just didn't hear a lot about what you feel.
48:35
Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because it's a quick voice message.
48:40
Speaker 1: But I don't know, man, it feels a part of
48:45
Speaker 1: me can't help but to wonder if there's a part
48:48
Speaker 1: of you that's trying to move forward a little prematurely.
48:55
Speaker 1: There's just I can't help but wonder if you're like,
48:58
Speaker 1: all right, well, this is what needs to happen next
49:01
Speaker 1: without fully processing what happened then and how it affects
49:06
Speaker 1: what's going on with you now. You know, betrayal is,
49:13
Speaker 1: it's a tough rupture in a relationship because when the
49:18
Speaker 1: trust comes in, back from betrayal, it trickles back slowly
49:23
Speaker 1: and it takes two very active participants in the repair process.
49:30
Speaker 1: When one person is moving feet, a lot quicker and
49:36
Speaker 1: more thoroughly than the other person when it comes to
49:38
Speaker 1: repairing the betrayal, there becomes an imbalance in the relationship.
49:42
Speaker 1: Because this thing that happens, it existed, the cheating. And
49:46
Speaker 1: it's more than just being with another person. It's what
49:50
Speaker 1: that means for how you see me. There's the why
49:54
Speaker 1: you did it piece. And then there's the unspeakable piece
49:57
Speaker 1: of how can we make sure that this does not
49:59
Speaker 1: happen again? And that's if you all decide to continue
50:02
Speaker 1: with the relationship. So to answer your question, if you
50:07
Speaker 1: want to receive what she's giving, the first question I
50:11
Speaker 1: have is what's in the way? What is the block?
50:13
Speaker 1: What's in between what she's saying and you internalizing it
50:18
Speaker 1: is something that you can utilize. Is it a belief thing?
50:22
Speaker 1: Do you believe what she's saying? Are her actions matching
50:25
Speaker 1: her words? Do you think her attempt at repair is genuine?
50:29
Speaker 1: And this is a really uncomfortable question, bro. But like,
50:32
Speaker 1: do you believe that this is something that she genuinely wants?
50:37
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that to cast any shadows of
50:39
Speaker 1: doubt in your mind, but we can't be afraid to
50:43
Speaker 1: go there if this has already happened. Is she as
50:48
Speaker 1: invested in repairing this relationship as you are? What are
50:53
Speaker 1: your doubts and apprehensions? There's something that's blocking that. If
50:56
Speaker 1: you can't receive it, It's not because you're incapable only.
51:00
Speaker 1: It's not only because you're incapable. I want to know
51:04
Speaker 1: what you need to see in order to receive it.
51:07
Speaker 1: What are you looking for her to do or say
51:10
Speaker 1: or fix or make amends for? And ask yourself, how
51:16
Speaker 1: will you know that this is honest? How much evidence
51:19
Speaker 1: do you need to see between what she says and
51:21
Speaker 1: what she does in order to believe her or not?
51:25
Speaker 1: I need you to dig deep, bro. Is it one
51:27
Speaker 1: of those things where it doesn't matter what she says
51:29
Speaker 1: or what she does? You may believe her, but it
51:31
Speaker 1: may not. You may not believe her enough. Where are
51:35
Speaker 1: you in terms of forgiveness? Is it something and look,
51:39
Speaker 1: I grew up Southern Baptist. My grandma was in church
51:42
Speaker 1: every Sunday and forgiveness was a message, man. I mean,
51:47
Speaker 1: like forgiveness was a part of that Christian experience. You
51:51
Speaker 1: are expected to forgive, man. I think that's a part
51:54
Speaker 1: of the human experience, forgiveness. But what I find with
51:57
Speaker 1: people is forgiveness is something that we say with our
51:59
Speaker 1: mouths and not with our hearts. We say we forgive someone,
52:03
Speaker 1: but we don't truly feel that way. What still lives
52:09
Speaker 1: with you from that experience? What is the thing that
52:13
Speaker 1: pops up for you most often? What is the biggest obstacle?
52:17
Speaker 1: Is it something that she did? Is it something that
52:19
Speaker 1: she does? Is it something that she doesn't do? Is
52:22
Speaker 1: it something that she doesn't say? Do you all have
52:24
Speaker 1: conversations about what happened that aren't logistic conversations? Where do
52:28
Speaker 1: we go from here? But that are feelings conversations. Do
52:32
Speaker 1: you find yourself over justifying her actions? Oh, I can
52:35
Speaker 1: see why she did this. Are those self-deprecating thoughts? I
52:40
Speaker 1: can see why she did this because I didn't. Because
52:43
Speaker 1: justification for cheating is tricky. It's tricky. It's tricky. There's
52:46
Speaker 1: always a reason, but there's really a justification. Are those
52:51
Speaker 1: two things different in your mind? The reason that it
52:53
Speaker 1: happened versus the justification. Where's your community? Who else are
53:00
Speaker 1: you talking to about this? Do you two have a mediator?
53:03
Speaker 1: Because sometimes trying to unwind this by yourself, just the
53:06
Speaker 1: two of you all can be an incredibly, incredibly heavy lift.
53:12
Speaker 1: Where is she in terms of just comparatively from from
53:18
Speaker 1: when this event happened to where she is now? How
53:20
Speaker 1: different is her mental state? How different are the conditions
53:25
Speaker 1: that led to this situation happening? Realistically, what is your
53:28
Speaker 1: fear that it will happen again? Do you? This is
53:32
Speaker 1: the biggest thing, man. And this is something that you
53:35
Speaker 1: got to really sit with. Don't even immediately answer this
53:38
Speaker 1: because it might be a reflexive yes or a reflexive no.
53:41
Speaker 1: Just sit with it for a minute, dog. Do you
53:44
Speaker 1: trust her? Do you trust her? Not just what she does.
53:52
Speaker 1: but what she says. And if the answer is no,
53:58
Speaker 1: I would argue that there is more work to do
54:00
Speaker 1: internally to decide what it is that you want from
54:05
Speaker 1: this thing. I think sometimes when infidelity happens, we want
54:09
Speaker 1: to get back what we had before, what the infidelity
54:12
Speaker 1: stole from us. We just want to get back there.
54:16
Speaker 1: But that there rarely exists in the same way that
54:19
Speaker 1: it did before the incident. And are you okay with
54:25
Speaker 1: what the relationship may look like moving forward? How can
54:28
Speaker 1: you identify whether or not she's invested? Not just saying it.
54:33
Speaker 1: Investment ain't something that you say. Investment is something that
54:36
Speaker 1: you demonstrate. Outside of your desire to have this person
54:40
Speaker 1: that you love next to you and to be in company,
54:43
Speaker 1: to be in community and companionship with this person. Outside
54:46
Speaker 1: of that, do you feel like you've seen the evidence
54:50
Speaker 1: that work toward Some sort of mutual understanding or some
54:56
Speaker 1: type of collective understanding or something, man, like this traction
55:02
Speaker 1: being gained there. And if the answer is no, that
55:04
Speaker 1: you really got to ask yourself why. And the why
55:08
Speaker 1: is super honest and it's it's dirty and it doesn't
55:11
Speaker 1: feel good. And I'm not going to say dirty is gritty.
55:15
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? It's great. Like when you
55:17
Speaker 1: pull a catfish out of a muddy lake, it's just gritty.
55:20
Speaker 1: but it's a necessary question to ask yourself to ensure
55:23
Speaker 1: that you're moving through this hard space with clarity, bro.
55:30
Speaker 1: I think before we could talk about how you, how
55:35
Speaker 1: you've received, we got to talk about where you are
55:39
Speaker 1: and how honest you are with yourself about where you are.
55:44
Speaker 1: I wish you were my client, man. I can, I
55:46
Speaker 1: can help you more comprehensively, but, Brother, if you are
55:49
Speaker 1: not connected to a professional, a mental health professional who's qualified,
55:53
Speaker 1: certified and licensed by the state, I am going to
55:56
Speaker 1: suggest that you do that ASAP. I don't want you
55:59
Speaker 1: fooling yourself into what you think you need without really
56:05
Speaker 1: exploring what it is that you actually do. And thank
56:08
Speaker 1: you for admitting that. It's rare that men admit that
56:11
Speaker 1: they got cheated on. It's just a different thing for men.
56:15
Speaker 1: It infers a lot of things about us and our
56:17
Speaker 1: capabilities and our prowess. It's not easy to admit, but
56:21
Speaker 1: there's going to be a dude out there who's been
56:23
Speaker 1: cheated on because there are a lot of them who
56:26
Speaker 1: is going to identify with this and ask himself some
56:30
Speaker 1: necessary questions that I hope you are asking yourself right now.
56:35
Speaker 1: Wishing you luck, my brother. You got a you got
56:38
Speaker 1: a lot of work to do and a lot of
56:40
Speaker 1: reflection to undergo. But I'm sure that you are more
56:43
Speaker 1: than capable of it. And I hope that you choose
56:45
Speaker 1: the decision, not the one that feels best for you,
56:49
Speaker 1: but the one that actually is best for you. And look,
56:52
Speaker 1: we're going to play a little inception. I want you
56:55
Speaker 1: to listen. I want you to tell me what you
56:57
Speaker 1: think about what I just I want you to leave
57:01
Speaker 1: a message for the message that was left that I
57:03
Speaker 1: responded to. So I can respond to your message about
57:05
Speaker 1: the message that I responded to. from the message that
57:07
Speaker 1: was left. That makes sense. Don't you try to sit
57:10
Speaker 1: there and act like it doesn't, because it does. And
57:12
Speaker 1: if you are hearing the sound of my voice outside
57:14
Speaker 1: of what Bro just shared, I want you to tell
57:17
Speaker 1: me what you think, what you're going through in life.
57:19
Speaker 1: What's up? Let's talk. This week, I really want you
57:22
Speaker 1: to ask yourself, am I asking my partner to be
57:25
Speaker 1: my peace or am I somehow learning how to create
57:29
Speaker 1: peace within myself and just inviting them to share in that?
57:33
Speaker 1: You know, there's a difference. And look, if you have
57:35
Speaker 1: questions for me, if you have any aha moments, whatever
57:38
Speaker 1: you stumbled upon, hit me up, man. It's on LearnTheHardWayPod.com.
57:44
Speaker 1: I have a little feature there. You can leave me
57:46
Speaker 1: a voice message. Who knows? I might actually respond to it.
57:50
Speaker 1: I think that the community is stronger when we learn together.
57:52
Speaker 1: Me and my team, we listen to each and every
57:55
Speaker 1: single one of these. And we'll, you know, we'll answer
57:58
Speaker 1: quite a few of them. But we want to keep
58:00
Speaker 1: this conversation going because we're building this community brick by brick.
58:04
Speaker 1: brick exactly man it's crazy how many people know that
58:07
Speaker 1: somebody saw me in uh where was i oh lord
58:11
Speaker 1: i can't remember where i be no more i was
58:12
Speaker 1: just there somebody saw me at martha's venue and was
58:14
Speaker 1: like what's up bro hey we building a community brick
58:16
Speaker 1: by brick and it took me like 15 seconds to
58:18
Speaker 1: realize what the hell he was talking about and i
58:20
Speaker 1: was like oh the pod yeah thank you for listening
58:23
Speaker 1: man um so in conclusion uh you know i'm i
58:27
Speaker 1: definitely i'm a person who wants peace in my relationship
58:30
Speaker 1: too is my relationship always peaceful Hell no, because relationships
58:34
Speaker 1: don't work that way. It's not designed to always be peaceful.
58:37
Speaker 1: But that that doesn't mean that you can't experience that
58:41
Speaker 1: within the confines of your relationship. And peace can't mean
58:44
Speaker 1: that your partner has to carry everything that you don't
58:47
Speaker 1: know how to carry, because that's that's not peace. That's
58:50
Speaker 1: that's conflict just waiting to happen. And that's pressure. You
58:55
Speaker 1: want to build a life where the person you're with.
58:59
Speaker 1: Can be safe. It can be a safe place to
59:02
Speaker 1: land for you without making that person responsible for keeping
59:06
Speaker 1: you standing. That is your partner. It's not your kid.
59:10
Speaker 1: All right. That's better for them. And honestly, it's a
59:13
Speaker 1: lot better for you. Once you think about that, I
59:16
Speaker 1: want you to internalize that. But most importantly, I want
59:18
Speaker 1: you to be out there practicing that until the next
59:21
Speaker 1: time I see you. As always, job well done. Catch
59:25
Speaker 1: y'all next week. Be good. Learn the Hard Way is
59:29
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcast. I'm your host, Keir Gaines.
59:33
Speaker 1: We're produced by Courtney Deans and Kacen Alexander. Ashley J.
59:37
Speaker 1: Hobbs is our senior producer. Our executive producers are Will Packer, Dr.
59:41
Speaker 1: Joy Harden-Bradford, Alex Baldwin, and Carla Wilmaris.