Latest / HR Spot / Episode #75 - Why Didn't You Fire Them Sooner?

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Episode #75 - Why Didn't You Fire Them Sooner? · HR Spot

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, welcome back to HR Spot Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have uh Linda and Gary show today, and we noticed that we had a very, very popular podcast when we talked about um how to fire a toxic employee without creating a bigger problem, and we had so many downloads that we thought we'd go a little bit deeper just on that topic alone.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so this episode is why didn't you fire them sooner, Gary?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think this hit hits home with everybody, right?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: You got a toxic person, why didn't you do something?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad we're getting into this one next.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why didn't you fire them sooner?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's a great question.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, usually the manager knew there was a problem, right?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And well, they they know they're not dumb, I hope.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, maybe they didn't know exactly how serious it would become, but there were warning signs people see just don't want to recognize.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe performance is slipping just a bit, attitude is always a big one, and other employees are complaining about this person.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe deadlines are missed too, but there's mistakes.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of dealing with it, the manager just kept putting it off.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Love that, right, Gary?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about love it, but yeah.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about why that happens, what it costs the company, and what it does to your good employees, and how leaders can recognize when coaching has turned into avoidance.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Linda.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why do managers wait?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Gary, why do you think managers hang on to employees they know deep down they aren't gonna work out?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for asking.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's I think there's several reasons.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think first people and managers don't like or don't want confrontation.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: They want to avoid it, right?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: They just want to make people happy.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Second, they're worried about how it's gonna affect their business and they're gonna be short staffed.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that means I have to work harder.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: That means everybody's gonna work harder and everybody's gonna be upset.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they start thinking, if I let this person go, who's gonna do the work?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and sometimes they convince themselves that well, you know, it'll get better.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're just going through a phase, and they think maybe they're just having a bad month, right?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe if I give them another chance, they'll turn around, they'll kind of get back to the where they were, but then another month goes by.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And another month goes by, yeah, and another month goes by, and so and he told two friends, and he told two friends.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing that we hear all the time is, but they've been with us for five years, and our response is what does that have to do with the behavior we're talking about today?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, tenure doesn't give anyone permission to become disruptive, stop performing, ignore policies, or treat coworkers poorly.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a free pass.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, oh okay, and sometimes that that longevity that they have actually makes managers more reluctant, reluctant to address the real issue.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's history there, maybe the employee helped build the company, maybe they were great three years ago.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: But leaders have to manage the employee that they have today, the person that's actually doing the work today, not the employee they remember from three years ago when they were hired and all gung-ho, ready to go.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's such an important distinction.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Pass performance can absolutely be acknowledged, but it doesn't excuse ongoing problems.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: No free pass.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, part two.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get into the real cost of waiting, Linda.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, here's where I think businesses underestimate the actual damage to the company.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: They look at the situation and they think, well, I'm just I'm still getting some work out of this person.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: So keeping them is better than having an empty position.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: But are you really saving anything?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't, you know, avoiding the change, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because no one likes change, that's not really saving much.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably not gonna save you anything because somebody else is usually almost definitely paying the price.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: If that employee isn't doing their job, somebody has to pick up the work.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're expecting everything you get done, someone's be working harder.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're difficult to work with, somebody is dealing with that stress, and if they're constantly negative, that negativity doesn't stay contained to one person.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: We know it spreads and it affects the culture and it it affects everybody.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, let's say you have an employee who who consistently misses deadlines, the manager starts checking the work, the the coworker finishes projects they didn't compete, complete.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: The HR spends a lot of time responding to complaints, the owner's getting involved.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're paying for four people to deal with one person's performance issue.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Don't wait around, don't give a free pass.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it and we haven't even really touched on or talked about the manager's time, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: If a manager spends several hours every single week correcting the mistakes, having the same conversations, moving assignments around, calming down other employees or having those conversations, that time is money.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's expensive.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's very expensive, Gary.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And here's another cost businesses don't always see until it's just too late.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Your best employees are watching.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's a big one.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's and they're disgusted at what they're seeing, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because they they notice.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: We we've talked about this.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: People are watching, they they all notice this kind of stuff, so you know that just leads us right into the next one.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is your good employees are watching, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is the part leaders really, really, really need to understand.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Employees know who isn't pulling their weight, everybody sees it, they know who's picking up the pieces.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to announce it, they just know.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: They absolutely know.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if you could see all the eye rolls behind the scenes, yeah, right, because it's like, oh dear god, here we go again, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll usually know before managers or management admits it.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the your best employee knows, and it's worse, is like when that best employee mentions it to the manager, and the manager rolls their eyes and says, Yeah, I know, but they still don't do anything.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody out there, listen, listen to this, right?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine you're one of the good employees, you come in on time, you meet your deadlines, you help the team, you're dedicated, you have that work ethic, you follow the rules.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: But sitting next to you is someone who doesn't do those things, they're not on time, they're not following the rules, and they're you think that they're really not dedicated.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: But guess what?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing happens.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually, you're gonna ask yourself, What in the heck?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I working this hard then?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the employees I want on my team.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that working hard?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: I will steal them tomorrow, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're if you're not gonna take care of your really good employees, then I'll take care of them.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you know, that's when the the whole performance issue then becomes a culture problem.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the employee you eventually lose isn't the problem employee, it's your good employee.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I will take them all day of the week.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're tired of carrying the workload, they're tired of hearing the negativity, they're frustrated because leadership isn't doing anything about it, and that's unacceptable.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what kind of message uh Linda?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Answer what as a leader, what kind of message does that send to everybody?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what which sends a message, right?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: This this sends it out there, whether the leader intends it to send it this way or not.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: The message is this behavior is acceptable.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna put up with it, right?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the flashing lights.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, we let you come in late.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, we we let you be a problem child because we don't deal with it, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: So what you tolerate now becomes part of your culture, and you can have a beautiful company, all the values hanging on the wall, but employees pay much more attention to the behavior leadership actually allows.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: What you allow, right, becomes the new standard.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: It just is what it is.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, all right, let's let's go to the next one, Linda.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Coaching or avoidance?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Break it down for me.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's be clear about something.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're not saying you should fire someone the first time they make a mistake.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh god, no, please.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: People deserve feedback, people deserve expectations, and in many cases, people deserve an opportunity to improve.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not saying go to the extreme by firing somebody.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course, right?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, everybody makes mistakes.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, it's not too costly and they're not repetitive, but like we talked about being late all the time, not finishing projects, and all that stuff.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: That adds up, right?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So good leadership isn't about firing people left and right, making it quick.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's about addressing problems quickly, not firing quickly, and there's a big difference there.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Don't fire quickly, address it quickly.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So when you see a problem, talk about it.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: If someone misses deadlines, don't wait three months.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: If their communication is inappropriate, nip it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: If their performance has changed, find out why.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just have a conversation.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just don't wait.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Don't wait weeks, months, six months, and you're still not doing anything about it is a killer.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And make the conversation crystal clear, use the details.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of the mistakes managers make, what I see, I think we all see, is a softening the message, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: The tone is maybe too harsh, so let's lighten it up a little bit.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so much so that the employee doesn't even realize that there's a problem, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: If it's just a hey, by the way, you know, I noticed you're relate, just come on, make sure you're here on time.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is not the best message.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: The manager walks away thinking, Oh, I talked about it, I had a conversation, I addressed it.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the employee walks away thinking, Well, that was just that was nice.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, that was a good reminder.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and it's a nice conversation, and that's the end of it.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I call that the compliment sandwich gone wrong.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you're doing a great job.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody loves you, and there's just this tiny little thing that we'd like you to work on, but otherwise you're wonderful.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then two weeks later, the manager says, Oh my gosh, why haven't they improved?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because you never actually told them that there was a serious problem.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I want to shake, I want to shake you, Mr.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Manager.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Managers have to be kind, but they also have to be clear.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's the difference between nice and kind, right?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Kind is helping them improve.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Nice is just saying, hey, you know, you're great, but fix this.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is the expectation.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is where you're falling short.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is what needs to change by this date.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And here's when we're gonna follow up again and have another conversation, regardless.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the favorite piece, most of all, document it, Gary.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Document it so if you're having the same conversation over and over and nothing's written down, you are creating a much bigger problem for yourself later.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so moving on, right?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: When is enough enough?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: When do you throw up the flag and say enough is enough?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, Gary, how many how does a manager know when they've given enough chances?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think you really start by asking whether the employee has clear expectations.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Was that really do they really understand it?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Have we clearly communicated what's wrong?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And have we given them the tools and resources to improve?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think those are key.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if we establish what improvement looks like, what the clear expectation is, and we've given them a reasonable opportunity, it's got to be reasonable to make that change.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: If we've done all those things and we're still having the same conversation, that's important information.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's you've given them enough, right?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I would ask another question are you seeing sustained improvement or temporary compliance?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes an employee gets written up and all of a sudden, boom, they're fantastic for two weeks, and then everything goes back to hell, right?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: They go back to where it was.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's not necessarily improvement.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's someone demonstrating they know how to meet the expectations, but aren't consistently choosing to do it.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and at some point, really, leaders have to stop asking, how many more chances should I give?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of if you're thinking about that, that's that's enough.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: You've already done it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: They need to start asking, what is keeping this employee?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: What keeping this employee is gonna cost the rest of the organization?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna cost the good employee leaving?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's the million-dollar question, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's an there's a point where another warning isn't doing anyone any good, not the manager, not the team, not the business, and frankly, not even the employee.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So three questions to ask yourself.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening today and you have an employee you're concerned about, I want you to ask yourself three questions.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, if this employee applied today, knowing everything I know now, would I hire them?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a good one, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Would they be a good fit?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's super revealing.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And number two, am I keeping this person because they're performing or because I'm afraid of what happens if they leave?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if the answer is fear, that's a staffing or leadership problem that that needs to be discussed and addressed separately.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And fear of having an open position isn't a good reason to tolerate poor performance indefinitely.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we've all heard this one, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, it's gonna take me this long to hire someone and it's gonna be brutal.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: What am I gonna do without them?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Just rip off the band-aid.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you've already gone this far, document, have the conversation, move on.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, exactly.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: And number three, what message is my lack of action sending to my best employee?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if your strongest employee came into your office tomorrow and said, I'm leaving because I'm tired of working with this person, would you be surprised?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if the answer is no, then you've probably waited too long.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's really I think one of my favorite ones, or not favorite, but I think that's the biggest impact, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: If your good employees are fed up and they're looking to leave because you're tolerating this other stuff, that says a lot, right?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you know, getting on here to wrapping it up, I think that's really the takeaway today.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Leaders sometimes believe they're being compassionate or reasonable or nice by avoiding a difficult employee conversation.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But but really avoiding the conversation isn't necessarily compassionate or kind, it can make things worse for the employee, for the manager, for the team, and frankly, for the entire organization.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And addressing performance problems doesn't make you a bad boss.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Holding people accountable doesn't make you a bad boss.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And deciding that someone is no longer the right fit doesn't make you a bad boss.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: What matters is that you handle it fairly, consistently, respectfully, and with right documentation.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that really helps your really good employees see that you do that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like that really strengthens the organization and it really makes the strong workers want to stay and work harder if you can do those things.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and preferably before you spent six months hoping the problem will disappear, don't wait six months hoping with your fingers crossed that it's gonna improve.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do that, Gary.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, because hope is not a performance management strategy.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: If there's one thing we want you to take away from today's episode, it is don't fire quickly, address quickly.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we want you to give employees clear expectations and a reasonable opportunity to improve.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you've done all that and nothing changes, don't let fear keep you from making the decision uh for your what's best for the business and what's best for the team that you need to make.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Nice, nice.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for your expertise.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: As always, Gary, um, we enjoyed sharing our wonderful employee issue with everyone.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So not our employee issues, but employee issues that we see.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we see regularly.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm excited to see everybody on Thursday for the the employment law update.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you didn't get a ticket, you're gonna miss it.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So shame on you.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're gonna miss your credits.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so thanks for joining.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Gary, how do they find us?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where there's this thing called the Google, you could type in azrhub, or you can send us an email at lynda at azhrhub.com or Gary at az Hrhub dot com.
• 20:34
  unknown: Okay.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Have a beautiful day, everybody, and we'll see you on the next episode.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.