Latest / After Maghrib 🌙 / Great VS Evil Leaders (ft. Muhammad Damji)

Transcript

Great VS Evil Leaders (ft. Muhammad Damji) · After Maghrib 🌙

• 0:00
  Smila Rahmad, Rahim, Assalamu Alaikum and welcome back to
• 0:03
  another episode on the aftermath of podcast.
• 0:05
  If this is your first time tuning in on YouTube, go ahead,
• 0:08
  hit that subscribe button. And brothers and sisters, this
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  is for free. You can help us and support us.
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  Go on Apple podcast, go on Spotify and leave us a feedback.
• 0:17
  Let us know how we're doing. And inshallah you can encourage
• 0:19
  others to tune in and benefit from our weekly conversations.
• 0:22
  Well, that's a brand new week and we're having a brand new
• 0:25
  discussion and we're going to be heavily focused on what it means
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  to be a true leader. Leadership.
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  You know, maybe Ahmed, you have examples of what makes a great
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  leader. Maybe you have examples of how
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  to lead a family. Maybe have examples of your
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  personal life of how leaders have had a direct impact in your
• 0:44
  life. And I'm really looking forward
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  to hear your contributions. And we are joined by an amazing
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  guest who has years of experience in this film when it
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  comes to mentoring. And before we introduce them on
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  to the episode, I can't have this conversation without you.
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  And I have to greet you, my brother, from another mother,
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  Ahmed Gokul. How are you?
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  I'm honest when my way in. If I'm honest, yeah.
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  I've had a long week. Why?
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  I know you have. Yeah, I've had long days, but we
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  say you. Know guys, if you may remember,
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  by the time this releases, a couple of weeks ago we did
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  Instagram Live and we showed you a live situation emergency that
• 1:36
  was taking place where we had a leak.
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  We came into film, we prayed salad, and we noticed there's a
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  leak like just over here. You probably got.
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  Can you see it on the wide? Yeah, above, above our special
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  guest, Mohammed Damji Salam Alaikum.
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  Sorry, but we. Built.
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  We built this great. Introduction.
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  Sorry, sorry, Mohammed told me that.
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  Don't oversell me in the intro. Honestly it's perfect.
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  I love it. Thank you, but.
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  No, listen, we're Mohammed Damji.
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  For those who don't know, he is a brother to me, an inspiration
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  to all of us. He's been serving in in the
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  community for I think what, the 15 or so years he's been here
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  now, am I right, roughly? 12. 1212 years you've been in
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  the UK and I can't imagine what the community would look like
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  without him. And I'm not just saying that
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  because he's here, but he's genuinely like a Big Brother to
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  me. And he's also someone which is
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  has done an extensive work within and outside of the
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  community on on leadership, on mentoring and trying to kind of
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  nurture and build the community to be in a better place for
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  tomorrow. So that's obviously something
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  we're going to get into today. Mohammed, I want to ask you,
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  though, really important question kind of to kick off.
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  Yeah. We are only a matter of days
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  after a monumental event. And that was when Man United
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  lost the Europa League final. OK.
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  So I want to ask you one message that you have.
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  And for 30 seconds, I want you to give Man United fans at home
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  a little 32nd pep talk, honestly, your leadership skills
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  in action. Thank you, Ahmed.
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  I appreciate the, the, the question, you know, said Ali.
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  There's two things that are guaranteed with Ahmed gokul #1
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  is he'll take every opportunity to establish that he's half
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  Iraqi by throwing out as much Arabic.
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  That's what he did earlier I picked up.
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  And the second thing is he'll take every opportunity to make
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  the most unnecessary Commonwealth Man United as he
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  can. And this is the worst time for
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  me right now. Yeah, Liverpool just won the
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  Premier League. And Man United.
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  Lost the only trophy they were after, so yeah, it's.
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  Maybe it's a good opportunity for an apology as well to all
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  Liverpool fans. Yeah, yeah.
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  You know what I'm just saying. Allah Masabarin for all.
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  Of us. We're just.
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  We're learning a lot of patience.
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  A lot of patience is what we're. Learning what happens when, when
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  you're called the Red Devils, you know?
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  Anyway, Inshallah we pray for their guidance and inshallah,
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  you know, may Allah make it easier for them.
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  But listen, Mohammed looks so good to have you on.
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  We wanted to talk about this conversation for a long time.
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  I know something which you feel very passionately about.
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  Can I ask to you on a personal level what what it means to be a
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  leader or why is it something which you're passionate about?
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  I think leadership is a difficult topic to tackle in
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  today's day and age because it's such a broad term.
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  It's not well defined. It's an interesting place to be
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  and it's something that we all want to do.
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  I think every human being wants to be a leader in some form or
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  shape, whether it's a leader of the household, leader of the
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  family, leader at workplace, leader in the community.
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  We all want elements of leadership.
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  And some people are wired to try and grow more in that space and
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  become leaders of larger organisations, larger
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  communities. You know, everyone has the the
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  drive and impetus to do something great.
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  And leadership is one of those things that can sort of in Ave.
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  for, for greatness, but also, you know, with, with great power
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  comes great responsibility. So it's so important to be
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  humble in that approach and take on the role of leadership with
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  humility and accept that anytime you put yourself in a position
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  where you're making difficult decisions that have lasting
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  consequences, that you take that decision very, very meticulously
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  and very carefully. And I think one of the
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  challenges in leadership is making decisions with the right
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  justification and the right approach.
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  So, you know, if you ask me to, to define true leadership or,
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  or, or the word leadership itself, it's not a
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  straightforward definition and in many contexts it can look
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  like different things. But you know, in the most broad
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  sense, it's putting yourself in a position to make difficult
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  decisions and doing it the right way.
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  Beautiful, beautiful. I love how you said, you know,
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  it has many different. I don't think you can define it
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  only because, for example, there can be so many people listening
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  to this episode. They're from different
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  backgrounds. You never know people from
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  different religions watching. So I think everyone has their
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  own version of what makes a great leader, right?
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  But when we look at leadership in today's world, we see for
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  example, politicians, we can consider them leaders.
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  We look at for example, and the workplace CEO's, they lead their
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  companies and businesses in a certain direction.
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  We look at teachers and the students.
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  We look at, for example, within Muslim family homes, majority of
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  the time is men taking the leadership role.
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  So even go as far as saying our Maraja, they leave us
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  spiritually and everything, right?
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  But are there like certain from your experience and the way you
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  see it from your lens, your perspective, is there any like
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  certain traits or characteristics a leader should
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  have leads? So, So just a couple of
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  clarification points on this. By the way, first of all, I
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  appreciate the intro, but I'm not a very experienced leader.
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  I'm quite young, so I have a limited experience I'll speak on
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  from what I've learned, but there are people much wiser than
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  me that you know, I hope you can engage on this topic.
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  And 2nd, the clarification is I don't think politicians are
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  leaders because one of the most important elements of leadership
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  is honesty. And I think that's a, that's
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  something that politicians really, really struggle with.
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  Almost everything for them is an agenda based campaign is a
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  marketing campaign. And I think they struggle to get
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  that point across. You know it with honesty.
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  And if you look at, you know, disillusionment today in the in
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  the public space, if you look at British politics, for example, I
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  don't think anyone trusts politicians.
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  If you look at sub community politics, that's one of the
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  biggest challenges. I think, sorry, yeah.
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  I think it's interesting because politicians are not considered
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  leaders, I think by the people. Yeah.
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  And it's interesting because they should be considered
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  leaders in a reality, in an idealistic utopian world, you'd
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  consider a politician. Can I just interject by the way?
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  Yeah, I think the reason I mentioned politician I looked up
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  earlier in the Oxford Dictionary, they considered
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  politicians as leaders. Yeah, I think by by stature of
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  position you'd consider them the leader of society because they
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  obviously have a level of of like authority and autonomy in
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  terms of the governance of society.
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  They're leading on certain areas in society.
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  So probably by on a tick box nature, but in terms of what we
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  consider leaders, look in the Holy Quran, Allah talks about
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  consistently talks about the leaders that he sent to to the
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  people. He talks about Salalah Muhammad
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  sallallahu alaihi Wali Salaam. And he says again and again, he
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  says, I've sent to you Oswatun Hassana, I've sent you the best
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  of role models, right? And he says about, he says I've
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  sent from amongst you, but messengers from amongst you,
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  from the people. I think one of the main
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  characteristics which I think politicians lack is the fact
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  that people don't consider them to be one of us.
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  They're not from us. You know, why did certain left
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  wing politicians in the UK or whatever, socialist politicians
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  in the US or whatever gain traction?
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  It's because people found relatability and they found a
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  like mindedness and a direct access to a politician that they
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  felt, you know, familiar with. And I think that's a big
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  characteristic as well. Obviously I know this we're
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  we're kind of going down a rabbit hole, but in terms of
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  leadership and why politicians may not fall into it, I think
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  it's because there's a lack of relatability.
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  But yeah, for sure they should. They should be, but they're not
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  because. So you know on that and you
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  asked about characteristics and qualities.
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  You know, for me, honesty and integrity is the very, very
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  first one. If as an individual in a
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  position of authority, you struggle with this simple
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  characteristic and attribute of honesty, you will not succeed as
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  a leader. If I can't go to somebody in
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  leadership and ask them a question and get a straight
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  answer, there is no trust, there's no authenticity there.
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  And authenticity is also a very, very interesting one because
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  people like to present an idea, an image of themselves in
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  leadership as powerful as, you know, wealthy or certain traits
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  that they that they think leaders have.
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  And I think people now in today's generation especially
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  value authenticity a lot more than then sort of prowess and,
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  you know, showing who you are in different ways.
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  But beyond that, I think, you know, accountability is a big
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  one. Being able to answer questions,
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  you know, having the confidence to to not to not deflect
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  questions away, you know, having sort of strong decision making.
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  So being being able to make decisions from a position of
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  perspective, having justification for why I made a
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  decision, not just opinion. And I find that, you know, OK, I
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  run my own business in today. If I make a decision for at at
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  the workplace and if I go in and don't justify my decision, it
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  could frustrate my team. They might, they might disagree
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  with it. And yeah, I have every
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  prerogative to make that decision.
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  But if I was to explain myself and you know, explain this, this
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  is this is where we are, this is the problem, this is my
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  identified solution and this is where we need to go.
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  And this is my final decision of how we need to address this
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  further than that. If I was to consult with the
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  team, take their opinions on board and say, you know what, OK
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  Ahmed and said I didn't know what this problem, how do we
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  deal with it? You give me your thoughts, you
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  give me yours. We come to a solution together,
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  then you're involved as part of that part of that decision.
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  Suddenly you feel like this leader has given you a chance to
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  be part of the solution, right? So they're taking you on the
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  journey together. So they're being inclusive of
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  your ideas and your thoughts. Sometimes it's not always
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  possible, right? Because in a large community,
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  like for example Stanmore, you got 5000 odd members, you can't
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  take every opinion or, or, or position into account.
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  So you have to make a final decision and you can't please
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  everyone. But I think consulting to a
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  certain level, showing openness is really, really important.
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  You know, beyond that also, I think humility is extremely
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  essential, extremely essential. I find a lot of people when they
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  come into positions of leadership, they lose their
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  humility. And I find, I find that really
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  strange, you know? Would you say that's a gradual
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  thing that happens when they're in that position or from the
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  very beginning? I think it's a gradual thing.
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  I don't think it's a flick of switch.
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  I believe my personal belief is every person that leads within
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  the community has sincere intentions and and I like to
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  believe that because it allows me to have an open perspective.
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  Anyone that that that tries to serve, but through their actions
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  and how they speak, it's very, very important.
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  Not what they speak, how they speak.
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  It's very essential to tell you whether a person has humility or
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  not. And I think that trick is is
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  very rare in today's. I think it, I think with some
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  people we definitely see that with some obviously humility
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  stays and they're great examples.
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  There's so many angles to kind of take this discussion from so
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  many. It's kind of almost too big of a
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  topic to, to cover in, in the, in the segment.
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  But if we kind of break it down, or at least how I like to break
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  it down, when we talk about leaders as Muslims, it's
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  different when we wear our Islamic hat on, different to us
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  being, you know, Westerners, Europeans or whatever it might
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  be. So as in, in, in Islam,
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  obviously leaders, we, we believe the, the perfect leaders
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  to be from the Ahlubaita Alayhi Musalaam.
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  Our leader at the moment is of course Imam Haji Arjala to Allah
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  Punja Sharif and we're commanded in the Quran.
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  Allah tells us in sort of Nassar Atiya Allah Atiya Rosul Amra
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  Minkum and the leaders from amongst you about Allan is
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  messenger and the leaders from amongst you.
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  And obviously the, the, there are certain schools within Islam
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  which talk about the, the, the Tawi or like the, the hidden
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  meaning of that verse to mean leaders, like Muslim leaders or
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  rulers. You know, the Mahali school,
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  which we talk about, we've seen a lot more since the start of
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  the genocide in, in Palestine. And people, yeah, people who
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  say, no, you can't go against the Muslim rulers.
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  Obviously the, the school of the Ahmedabaita name Islam don't
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  believe in that. And we believe that this means
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  the Imams of the Ahmedabaita name Muslim.
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  And of course, we've got Hadith and our sources for that.
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  But on on a more human level, our leaders, our, our parents,
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  our teachers, our scholars, or, you know, our role models,
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  right? And role models being, in my
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  humble opinion, the all-encompassing definition of a
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  leader, because I don't feel like that Western mentality of
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  you're either a leader or a follower.
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  I don't think that really applies in my personal
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  definition of what leadership is.
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  Because for me, a leader is someone who I can learn from.
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  They're leading by example, right?
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  So a leader might be someone who may not possess leadership
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  skills in the Western sense, for example, organization and being
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  able to speak to a crowd and so on and so forth.
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  These are all great leadership skills, like a corporate
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  workspace, for example. But for example, there may be
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  someone who is a specialist in a certain field and he, he, he
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  carries out his craft in a level of precision and accuracy and
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  detail. And I think, wow, like I want to
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  do that and I want to to follow that example because he's
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  leading by example. So for me, leadership comes back
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  to that being able to lead by example.
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  And then that encompasses the, the morals that you have, the
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  characteristics that you have, all of these traits that you
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  possess as a human being, which is infectious.
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  And other people want to transfer.
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  They want those skills to be transferable to themselves and
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  they want to possess them themselves.
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  And obviously we've seen that. And I mentioned Salaam Muhammad
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  and again and again and again we, we repeat him being the
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  perfect prime example of a leader in all ages.
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  You know, from his birth, he was, he was seen as a
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  disadvantaged individual. He was raised in the desert.
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  His father passed away before he was born.
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  His grandfather passed away at his young age.
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  Of course then he was by some accounts he was not able to read
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  or write. But the people around him
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  trusted him. They saw him as a trustworthy
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  person. So when he came with that
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  message, sure it took time, he had a lot of opposition.
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  But eventually now he's considered, by by all accounts,
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  Muslim and non-muslim, to be the greatest, if not one of the
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  greatest leaders in world history.
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  Yes. So this is a really interesting
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  point because beautiful point. Yeah, it's an amazing point
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  because what you're establishing here is, is a challenge that we
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  have, especially in the Western world and with the advent of
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  social media, which is the loudest person in the room is
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  the most influential person in the room.
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  All right. So the person with the most
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  followers on social media is the one we go to to project our
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  ideas and our and our, you know, thoughts.
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  Because if that that person can reach the most people, but if
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  that that person has may not have established meaningful
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  relationships with people. So people don't look up to them
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  because of who they are, but they look up to them because of
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  how many people follow them, for example, right.
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  So that now starts a trend of week leadership because people
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  are now revered who have no meaningful entity behind them.
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  What you're talking about here is quiet confidence, which is I
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  know what I'm great at, what I'm doing, I don't need to shout
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  about it. And people ask me, I'll talk
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  about it and I'll establish my authority there.
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  So you see that in the workplace a lot where people will
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  gravitate towards a certain individual who's very good at
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  their job and they'll say, can I learn from you?
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  You will see that in the Islamic world where people will
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  gravitate towards certain olomarch and say, can I learn
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  from you? Now somebody might not have the
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  oratory power of, you know, other speakers, but they might
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  be very well revered. Why?
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  Because when they do speak, everyone listens.
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  So they might not reach the masses, but the masses come to
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  them because when they when they reach the hearts, they reach the
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  hearts, right. So it's about how much impact
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  versus how much reach. And this is a conversation
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  you're probably having on a social media level is how much
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  impact versus how much reach. Yeah, you can count the views,
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  but how many people's lives you actually?
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  Substance. The substances.
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  Yeah, right. Absolutely.
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  And quiet confidence only comes with self-awareness, which is if
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  I'm aware of what my strengths and weaknesses are, I can
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  further my strengths and I can improve my weaknesses.
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  And a lot of leaders struggle with self-awareness.
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  Yeah, because if you push yourself into this aura of
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  confidence without being aware of what your weaknesses are,
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  you, you can get exposed very quickly.
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  Somebody asks you the right question at the wrong time, you
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  can get exposed. So I think another trait also is
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  self-awareness. But on the Islamic point, I
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  think having a dollar as part of a leader is very, very
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  important. Being just being firm in your
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  decision making, but being very, very fair.
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  And part of that is also, if you've made a mistake as a
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  leader, acknowledging that and making it clear that you made a
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  mistake and rectifying that mistake as quickly as you can.
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  And that can be in, in any field.
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  So you're saying any field your your position as you know a
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  teacher in the community as a speaker, as a father, whatever
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  it might be, but leading in any regard, right?
• 18:35
  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
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  I'm. I'm a father to two young
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  children. I make mistakes all the time.
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  And I'll tell my daughter. You know what?
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  You're right. I'm sorry.
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  I shouldn't have done that. Or she'll try to convince me
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  that, you know, she's allowed to have a certain sweet treat and
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  I'll try to convince her she's not.
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  And then it turns out her mum and her had agreed that she does
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  this, she can have that. And and then I have to say, OK,
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  sorry. My bad.
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  We know that. We all know that feeling.
• 19:05
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 19:07
  Yeah. Can I ask said maybe this is a
• 19:09
  question OK for you because we, you know, said Ali has this
• 19:12
  catch phrase. Yeah, when I ask him, I said
• 19:14
  like, you know, you're you're Marshall, you serve the
• 19:17
  community. You serve what not.
• 19:19
  He has this thing. He says I serve the servants of
• 19:21
  the servants, the most cannibal is saying anything to say.
• 19:26
  OK. Do you think that, like for us
• 19:29
  as as especially as Shia? Yeah.
• 19:32
  For us, a real leader is someone who commits to service being a
• 19:37
  Khadim. Do you see what I mean?
• 19:39
  Yeah, I don't think you can lead without having service in the
• 19:42
  back of your head if it's not the top priority because as a
• 19:45
  leader, I don't think you know, you work for yourself.
• 19:49
  You carry the burden of the community.
• 19:52
  You work with them, you serve them.
• 19:53
  And and by serving them, you know, you're serving Allah
• 19:56
  ultimately, I if we say was Shia, you mentioned something
• 20:00
  very important. You know, as Muslims, who do we
• 20:02
  look up to when we look at the way Rasul Allah spent his time
• 20:07
  with the Omaha, the way Emir Al Mahmanin gave his time to them,
• 20:09
  the way Imam Hassan Imam was saying spoke with the Omaha,
• 20:13
  right. Or it's all about serving them,
• 20:15
  serving themselves. It wasn't.
• 20:16
  Less about the do's and don'ts. What's more about, you know, let
• 20:19
  me hear you. Let me make you feel valued.
• 20:21
  Even if they didn't agree or something.
• 20:23
  There was a disagreement. It was with Heckman, it was with
• 20:25
  soft speech, so similar to the point you mentioned.
• 20:28
  It would penetrate the heart. They don't have to be the
• 20:30
  loudest of voices. They have so much enemies.
• 20:32
  Look at the world today. And if we look up to them, we
• 20:36
  are, we say we are their servants.
• 20:37
  We are the servants of our little bait.
• 20:38
  We are the servants of the NBR. We are the servants of a lots of
• 20:41
  one with Tyler. You cannot lead without you.
• 20:43
  Know what you know? Sorry, just because I know you
• 20:45
  want to add something else, but you know repeatedly when we like
• 20:49
  we on a day in and day out level, we consistently remind
• 20:53
  ourselves of this service. You know, we talk about
• 20:56
  mentioned Salaam Muhammad's a few times and we say
• 21:00
  consistently in our tissue a shadow and a shadow and a
• 21:04
  Muhammadan Abdul Rasul and and him being the Abd 1st and then
• 21:09
  the Rasul is so I, I bear witness that he was the Abd and
• 21:13
  then the Rasul and it's Subhanallah that hit me today.
• 21:16
  I was thinking about his like his primary role in his in his
• 21:21
  eyes is like I'm the servant of Allah, the slave of Allah before
• 21:24
  I'm his messenger. And the fact that we
• 21:26
  consistently mention this as a reminder to ourselves that we
• 21:30
  aim to follow in the footsteps of someone who himself would
• 21:32
  call he'd he'd call himself a servant.
• 21:34
  That is beautiful, right? And I think the humanity thing
• 21:37
  you mentioned. Keeps.
• 21:38
  Us in check, you know, the fact that we have that mindset, we
• 21:41
  don't believe that we are the highest power and authority in
• 21:45
  our field, in our circle or in society because we know that
• 21:48
  there's a level of hierarchy. And even, you know, by the way,
• 21:49
  even if we look at our own communities or communities, we
• 21:53
  go different communities all around the world, not even
• 21:54
  local. It's not a community of that
• 21:56
  service. Yeah, if you remove service, it
• 21:59
  collapses. Everyone's not working.
• 22:02
  Absolutely. You're not working for others.
• 22:04
  You can't. You can't be a leader if you're
• 22:06
  not a servant. You simply can't.
• 22:08
  You need to have served in a certain capacity within an
• 22:10
  organization to understand what it needs are to then become a
• 22:13
  leader as part of that, that community, that entity, that
• 22:15
  establishment. So do you think sorry, can I?
• 22:17
  Have to be on the front line. So can I ask you, sorry, because
• 22:20
  obviously we've grown up in a very similar environment in
• 22:22
  terms of our mindset on community work.
• 22:25
  I think we have the same sort of background and we've we've done
• 22:27
  similar projects and same projects as well.
• 22:29
  Should I run when we No, no, no, no, come on, bro.
• 22:32
  The need. I'm I'm saying like when I was
• 22:35
  younger, someone said, who's the community leaders?
• 22:37
  I'll just said mosque president, anyone who's basically, you
• 22:41
  know, the head of the madrasa. Yeah, like and people who are at
• 22:45
  the top of the chain of decision making.
• 22:48
  But on this definition of service, you'd say, for example,
• 22:51
  a leader and you mentioned mastery of their craft, you
• 22:54
  know, someone who's perfected or whatever works hard and quiet
• 22:57
  confidence, which I really like that point and someone who is
• 23:00
  committed to service. So you could argue that, you
• 23:03
  know, the, the, the chef in the kitchen of the mosque who's day
• 23:06
  in, day out, just doing their stuff, working hard, they're a
• 23:10
  leader in the sense of their field.
• 23:12
  But does leadership then have a wider impact?
• 23:15
  So do you, for example, is, is the concept of leadership, is
• 23:18
  that also engaging with others? Because I can be a master in my
• 23:21
  field and I can be committed to serving, but does that make me a
• 23:27
  leader? Or does that just make me humble
• 23:28
  and honest in my work? Do you see what I mean?
• 23:32
  Yeah, I think that there is a difference between servant and
• 23:34
  leader, but I think you have to be a servant to be a leader.
• 23:37
  Right. I don't think you can be a.
• 23:39
  So not all servants are leaders, but all leaders are servants,
• 23:42
  correct? Yeah.
• 23:43
  So yes, the person working in the in the background may not be
• 23:47
  somebody who wants to be at the forefront of the decision
• 23:49
  making. He may just want to be hard
• 23:51
  working and get stuff done. And that's a very, very high
• 23:54
  quality trait. OK.
• 23:56
  But I think how, how, how can you be in a position of
• 24:00
  leadership if you're not willing to do what you're going to ask
• 24:02
  everyone else to do, right. So I've, I've spent time in
• 24:05
  three communities, Quadra communities, Dubai, Toronto and
• 24:08
  London. And I remember growing up there
• 24:10
  was a leader in our community in Dubai who at the time he was
• 24:15
  president in the month of Muharram.
• 24:18
  He would obviously be running the show with the with the
• 24:22
  program and then he would step out after the program, put on hi
• 24:26
  vis jacket and go do parking volunteering.
• 24:28
  So I asked him, I said, why are you here?
• 24:31
  You know, you've got about 200 volunteers around the mosque.
• 24:35
  You've got about 35 in the kitchen, you've got 20 in car
• 24:39
  park, you've got X number here and there, ladies, whatever.
• 24:42
  Why are you doing this work? You're running around in the
• 24:44
  heat, you're sweating. And he looked at me and said,
• 24:47
  how can I ask them to do it if I'm not willing to do it?
• 24:50
  They have to stand outside in the heat.
• 24:52
  Why shouldn't I, right. How can I expect something of
• 24:57
  somebody else if I'm not willing to do it myself?
• 24:59
  Yeah. So I thought, how strange.
• 25:02
  I always considered, you know, we were always taught that the
• 25:06
  highest the highest positions that people that are basically
• 25:08
  sit on the armchairs and, you know, make big decisions and
• 25:11
  then watch everything unfold. This is what actually Pharaoh.
• 25:15
  And Mahalia and Ascent, the true leaders are sitting with the
• 25:19
  population and they're at the at the front line like, like Rasul
• 25:22
  Allah was in multiple wards. He could have sat in the back
• 25:25
  end and said take the army and go and fight and come back.
• 25:28
  But he's, he stepped foot forward.
• 25:30
  Yeah. And he was with the, with his
• 25:32
  army on the front lines. And how many battles did he get
• 25:35
  injured? And he risked his life in, even
• 25:36
  though he knew his status and his position in the, in the, in
• 25:40
  the ummah, but he had two things, faith in the last Panata
• 25:43
  Tawaka and an attitude of servitude.
• 25:47
  So I think that's an essential piece.
• 25:49
  Beautiful. Powerful.
• 25:50
  Yeah. All right.
• 25:51
  So look, this is important because I think so far we've
• 25:55
  identified what what makes a good leader and what good
• 25:59
  leaders do as well in their sense of servitude and being
• 26:02
  able to put their money where their mouth is.
• 26:03
  If we're going to be real talk is cheap and you know, doing it
• 26:07
  is what matters. When we talk about developing
• 26:10
  our communities, one of the main goals I think of the Aftermarket
• 26:13
  podcast is we try to unify the global Shia community, I think
• 26:18
  under the banner of Laila Ala Mohammad Sulla and Ali Ali
• 26:21
  Allah, right? So I think that's very important
• 26:23
  to us. So we believe that the global
• 26:24
  Shia community, especially in the West, is doing great.
• 26:28
  I think we've progressed a lot in the last 1020 years, but I, I
• 26:32
  think there are areas in which as a global Western Shia
• 26:35
  community, we can improve and many of that is, is naturally
• 26:38
  unfolding. And I think there's a
• 26:39
  generational change because of culture and whatnot.
• 26:42
  So, for example, our parents may have been first Gen. second Gen.
• 26:45
  immigrants to, to our current countries now, but many of us
• 26:48
  were born in the West now and are kind of taking part and, and
• 26:53
  inshallah becoming leaders of our communities.
• 26:55
  But I think it's interesting now for our generation and for the
• 26:59
  generations that are, you know, slightly older than us to be
• 27:02
  able to nurture and develop the leaders of tomorrow, OK, Being
• 27:06
  able to spot that talent. If there is a way, it's, it's
• 27:10
  it's, you know, when we talk about football like we did
• 27:12
  earlier, it's some some ways it's easier to to spot a raw
• 27:15
  talent in football. And sometimes those raw talents,
• 27:18
  you know, turn into Mason Greenwoods.
• 27:21
  They maybe don't hit their potentials or sometimes maybe
• 27:26
  they don't hit their potential. Sometimes they exceed.
• 27:28
  And obviously you have others who work hard and reach the
• 27:30
  heights and that can be applied to any aspect.
• 27:33
  But with with youth specifically, so teenagers and
• 27:37
  whatnot, is A, is there a mechanism or a formula of
• 27:40
  spotting what raw leadership talent looks like amongst youth?
• 27:44
  And B. Once you spot that, if that is
• 27:46
  possible, what do we do? I think there are skills that
• 27:52
  are teachable and skills that are just, you know, I don't like
• 27:56
  the word natural because everybody's nurtured to a
• 27:59
  certain extent by their parents and their siblings and their
• 28:02
  family. And then also the community
• 28:04
  plays a part in that. But I think, you know, the right
• 28:07
  attitude is something that you can't really teach.
• 28:09
  It has to be sort of self-taught almost so.
• 28:14
  But identifying the right individuals, you know, it's
• 28:18
  about finding people that are sincere in their approach.
• 28:21
  And younger people generally are more sincere in their approach
• 28:25
  because they want to make a difference.
• 28:26
  They want to be heard, they want to get involved.
• 28:29
  But also, I think a very, very key quality that we lack is just
• 28:34
  a simple element of getting stuff done.
• 28:37
  Like literally you give somebody a task, they get it done, they
• 28:40
  come back, it's, you know, they go on to the next thing.
• 28:44
  And if you can find a young individual that's good at doing
• 28:47
  that, you know, that's that that's a leader right there
• 28:51
  because a leader needs to be somebody that can get things
• 28:54
  going, especially in a voluntary role.
• 28:56
  So if we're talking community leadership, you know, you know,
• 28:59
  for yourselves, for example, I would argue your leaders in the
• 29:02
  media space for the share community, your main thing is to
• 29:06
  get stuff done on daily basis, put the content out, get the
• 29:10
  right speakers, get the right ideas, you know, pull the
• 29:13
  production together, do the editing, do an event called
• 29:17
  timeless resilience, get the right speakers.
• 29:19
  Yes, the and then what you need to teach and nurture within
• 29:22
  those within those individuals is having the right approach,
• 29:25
  the right premise, the right clock, the right values, the
• 29:27
  right principles. Those can all be taught amongst
• 29:30
  along the journey of leadership. But the simple idea of getting
• 29:34
  things done is, is such a such an, you know, important
• 29:38
  attribute because it pushes you forward.
• 29:41
  It allows you to get into the right circles because people
• 29:44
  need that when they when they lack time.
• 29:46
  So when community leaders need, need, need support from young
• 29:49
  individuals, they look for people who can get things done,
• 29:52
  bring them on board. Let's teach them.
• 29:53
  Let's make sure they're part of the fold as well.
• 29:56
  But beyond that, I think, you know, having the right
• 30:00
  understanding of why you want to be part of the community and
• 30:06
  that, that why is very, very important.
• 30:08
  The sincerity, the humility, the approach towards supporting the
• 30:12
  community and not having a chip on your shoulder when it comes
• 30:15
  to being in service, you know, being open to feedback, being
• 30:21
  relatable to people. These are all very, very
• 30:24
  important attributes, you know. Would you guys agree that Mister
• 30:28
  was a leader? Yeah, 100% right.
• 30:31
  What is the quiet guy? He's the cap.
• 30:33
  Doesn't make too much noise, turns up every time, gets his
• 30:36
  job done, never complaints. Right now some people might not
• 30:40
  view that as leadership because they'll think, oh he doesn't get
• 30:43
  asked difficult questions. He does.
• 30:45
  I know he does because I've seen him get asked difficult
• 30:47
  questions and mashallah he always has the answer.
• 30:50
  And if he doesn't, he will tell you.
• 30:51
  I'll find. That's true much.
• 30:53
  Yeah, yes, from, from, from flooding, absolutely.
• 31:00
  But yeah, I fully agree with that.
• 31:02
  But, you know, which is a great example of what young raw talent
• 31:05
  looks like, which is I'm going to go out there and I'm going to
• 31:07
  get things. Done.
• 31:08
  Oh, what's interesting, sorry because most of us a good case
• 31:10
  study and I'm not just saying this.
• 31:12
  Yeah, yeah. One thing he's done like, and
• 31:15
  I've mentioned this to him so many times, there's a generation
• 31:18
  of youth in London right now who are all products or whatever of
• 31:24
  Mojtaba's mentoring in the AV tech space.
• 31:27
  OK, so he has actually actively taken under his wing over the
• 31:31
  last 10 years at least 20 or 30 kids who are now in their mid
• 31:36
  late 20s or whatever and taught them a whole field, whole
• 31:40
  industry. Many have made careers out of
• 31:42
  it, started businesses, made incomes, you know, I mean, put
• 31:45
  food on the table thanks to that.
• 31:47
  And I think that's interesting because he spotted talent at
• 31:50
  13141516 years old, said, why don't you come help us out,
• 31:54
  watch how we do things, get involved slowly, give tasks,
• 31:58
  watch their maturity, watch their skills develop until
• 32:01
  ultimately he feels they're ready to take on a great level
• 32:04
  of responsibility. And Phil shoes in his in his
• 32:08
  space, for example. Do you see what I mean to?
• 32:10
  I do 100% and I agree and inshallah we ask a lot to
• 32:13
  continue to giving him tofik. And grant him a.
• 32:16
  Service and grow him a noble wife.
• 32:18
  Inshallah. By which, on this premise, most
• 32:20
  of us should be the next guest. Yeah. 100%. 100% but despite the
• 32:25
  topic. But but on that actually, you
• 32:28
  know, I think it's, it's also, I think humility is a very, very
• 32:32
  important point, you know, because like having the right
• 32:35
  attitude to learn is so essential.
• 32:38
  So you're saying with kids spot humility or what you mean as a
• 32:42
  leader being? Yeah, both.
• 32:44
  I think both. You look for young leaders
• 32:46
  today. If you want to be in a positions
• 32:47
  of leadership, you have to be humble because everything that
• 32:51
  you get in this world is from a lost panel, Tala, there's no
• 32:53
  doubt about that. There's absolutely none.
• 32:55
  When we're younger, we're wired to think that everything I
• 33:00
  achieved comes from me it that way because we're putting the
• 33:01
  hard work and it comes out. The academic system teaches us
• 33:04
  that you put in your hard work, you do well on your exams, it's
• 33:07
  your achievement. It's all.
• 33:09
  About the ego. The ego, right, what I really
• 33:13
  love is in, in sort of use of profit, use of asks and
• 33:20
  requests, control of the treasury.
• 33:23
  So it's it's sort of use of verse 55.
• 33:27
  I believe Allah says Bismillahman Rahim college Ani
• 33:31
  Allah Khazar in El Al in the Hafilan Ali.
• 33:34
  So never Yusuf tells him place me in authority over the
• 33:38
  treasures of the land. Surely I'm a good keeper Hafil
• 33:41
  and knowing well Ali. So this is confidence is that I
• 33:45
  know how to manage finances and I know what I'm doing and you
• 33:48
  can trust me in the Hafil. All right, great.
• 33:52
  So for Allan gives it to him steps forward.
• 33:54
  What does the next verse say? Wakadalika Makanali Yousuf and
• 34:00
  thus did we give to Yousuf power, Subhanallah, alas
• 34:05
  Muhammad Allah shows the confidence of Navi Yousuf and in
• 34:08
  the very next verse he tells us actually we gave him the power,
• 34:12
  right? Everything was just a vehicle
• 34:14
  for him. That scenario of famine was a
• 34:16
  platform. Never used of being in that
• 34:19
  position to ask for the treasury was a platform everything was
• 34:22
  just a vehicle for Allah's wisdom, right.
• 34:25
  If we can understand that quality and yes, this can be
• 34:27
  taught, but finding leaders that have humility wired in them.
• 34:32
  That's that's somebody that's really, really special.
• 34:34
  Beautiful. Beautiful.
• 34:36
  You know when I think of like. You know, all these points you
• 34:39
  discussed and now it's normally thinking of my teenage years
• 34:42
  when I was, I don't know, 13141516 And I think looking
• 34:47
  back and maybe saying wish I would agree with me.
• 34:49
  We grew up in a very, in the same community.
• 34:50
  In fact, I, I, I had time. It felt like there wasn't real
• 34:57
  leadership skills from the top. But I know that's down to, first
• 35:00
  of all, language barrier, the reasons we came to the UK and
• 35:03
  things like this. But I felt like there was more
• 35:05
  of an initiative from, from, I would say people were just maybe
• 35:10
  5-6, seven years older than me. So there was the age group
• 35:14
  between for example, you know. What can I call them?
• 35:19
  What? I wouldn't say that, Shabab.
• 35:21
  No, I'll say Shabab. I'll say Shabab, right?
• 35:25
  I know what you mean the. Guy's a few years older than
• 35:26
  you. A few years older they were.
• 35:28
  The ones who were like, you know what?
• 35:29
  I see something, let me take it on.
• 35:30
  But that that that group. Said they did it.
• 35:33
  Do you think they did it out of out of the fact that there was
• 35:37
  nothing? They basically, like you said,
• 35:38
  they took initiative because there was nothing being
• 35:40
  provided. No, I would say they know the
• 35:41
  language. They're living in the real
• 35:44
  world. They took that initiative and
• 35:46
  said, you know, I'm going to do this.
• 35:47
  And when they succeeded, that they were like, you know, let me
• 35:49
  bring others with me, right? And I and I feel like that has
• 35:52
  had a direct impact on myself. I'll say, Mustafa, my circle of
• 35:55
  friends of how we are today, I would say a lot of it was down
• 35:58
  to them, not just for example, our parents, everything, No, the
• 36:01
  whole community LED us in a certain direction.
• 36:05
  And now we see, for example, Mucha involved in the media
• 36:07
  world or we see, for example, Ahmed, you know, so many of my
• 36:10
  friends who are very involved in the community.
• 36:13
  But that was because of that. Someone taught them, someone
• 36:16
  mentored them, someone took their hands and guided them,
• 36:19
  whether it was, you know, how to apply for a job, how to seek
• 36:22
  better education, how to even, I think there were they were
• 36:26
  giving people how to apply for grants for youth centers or
• 36:28
  things like this. This was something new, but
• 36:31
  someone took that initiative and did it sincerely, not for money.
• 36:34
  They did it because they really wanted to serve.
• 36:35
  I mean, that's interesting. I'm not sure one.
• 36:37
  Name you know them. And you're talking about 1 great
• 36:39
  example of living proof and he's and he's a good.
• 36:41
  Example of someone who's continued that chain on and
• 36:44
  continued mentoring you know, when I first worked for Haji
• 36:48
  Amir and I love bless him yeah yeah.
• 36:50
  And I did a one year like placement year during my
• 36:54
  university. I worked for 100 Day TV and in
• 36:57
  my first week I was maybe 18 or 19 at the time, and we had a
• 37:02
  guest come in to film and I said something really embarrassing
• 37:05
  like I'm not going to repeat what on live, no.
• 37:08
  No, no, it was like what? The girl, the, the, the guest
• 37:10
  came and we were chatting behind the scenes and whatnot.
• 37:12
  And I said something embarrassing and Emir took put
• 37:15
  my hand, his hand on my shoulder.
• 37:17
  He said to me, this is not an internship, this is a mentorship
• 37:19
  because I'm going to turn you into a man.
• 37:21
  So I was like, alright, alright, bro.
• 37:23
  And since then, obviously, it's been what, 13-14 years?
• 37:28
  No, but he's he was consistent. Yeah.
• 37:31
  He's a good example of someone who's.
• 37:32
  Mentored The thing is in in that generation, a lot of them did it
• 37:35
  out of the lack of existing initiative I see in in in our
• 37:39
  our community. Specifically for me growing up
• 37:41
  in in the London community, I was I was kind of I wouldn't say
• 37:49
  yeah, I was encouraged. I was encouraged to step forward
• 37:51
  and do things in many cases against my will, but it helped.
• 37:55
  I mean, you know, we have this annual sleepover and and
• 37:57
  Shahramaban in our community. I was put my name was put
• 38:01
  forward to lead it for a couple of years.
• 38:03
  You attended a few you. Attended a few, yeah.
• 38:05
  I had to organise a 15/16/17 year old.
• 38:07
  One year I was attending, the next year I was planning the
• 38:09
  whole thing, managing the finance, the volunteers, the
• 38:12
  activities, the guest speakers, all of that stuff.
• 38:14
  And then you obviously go into the university system here you
• 38:17
  have Apple based societies in the US, you have Absos, the same
• 38:20
  sort of thing. And that was a huge platform for
• 38:23
  us as well. Becoming a president, being in
• 38:25
  committees, you know, managing all of all of the events and
• 38:28
  what, what not. These teach you skills.
• 38:31
  One thing I remember which I I definitely failed on looking
• 38:35
  back on it, which inshallah, I don't have that issue now, was
• 38:38
  the fact that I did not feel like everything came from
• 38:40
  Olaspant to Allah. So when we in Absoc, for
• 38:43
  example, we started a campaign or we we did the we won event of
• 38:47
  the year or Society of the year or whatever it might be.
• 38:50
  I would always think, yeah, yeah, I was the president when
• 38:53
  we did that. You know, I would.
• 38:54
  Yeah. You know what?
• 38:55
  I mean, and I completely agree with you because I was in the
• 38:57
  same, I was in the same position as yourself.
• 38:59
  I was vice president of Bruno Absoc and it's very difficult
• 39:03
  because we're the first generation that grew up with
• 39:05
  social media metric numbers. Yes, yes, for.
• 39:08
  U.S. news were everything. Attendance was everything
• 39:10
  followers live followers, retweets, repost on Instagram.
• 39:15
  So we were like, you know, we didn't, we didn't understand
• 39:18
  what success, what real success was, what changed the.
• 39:21
  Mindset can I? Ask since you both have the
• 39:23
  similar I think when you. Go through different struggles.
• 39:27
  You realise that all your successes and victories came
• 39:29
  from a lost. It's maturity.
• 39:31
  Yeah, it's. Maturity.
• 39:32
  Yeah, and I. Think there's other things as
• 39:34
  well which come with it. So I think the struggles thing
• 39:37
  is a big one because you see the highs and the lows in life and
• 39:40
  then that teaches you, you know, that you can fall at any moment
• 39:43
  and obviously I can allow you to rise at any moment as well.
• 39:46
  I think becoming a father's been a big change for me on the past
• 39:49
  and it doesn't really translate directly, but you see things
• 39:55
  from much realer level and a realer perspective and and you
• 39:58
  see things I think you you always think of trying changes
• 40:01
  all aspects. Yeah bro, like you'd.
• 40:03
  Agree, I'm sure, but being you're trying to be the best
• 40:07
  person, the best version of yourself to influence the
• 40:10
  younger generation, your children being, you know, and
• 40:13
  there's a fine line, I think, and this applies to parenthood
• 40:16
  and I think also just to those who are, you know, in the mosque
• 40:19
  and, and you look at the kids, look up to, but you need to
• 40:22
  nurture guidance and also at the same time allow autonomy and
• 40:27
  agency for youth, right? So you allow them to express
• 40:29
  themselves, you allow them to have their interests and
• 40:32
  whatnot, but you nurture them, their guidance.
• 40:34
  You don't shut them down. And obviously this is an area
• 40:37
  which you work on very closely. Muhammad and I taught together
• 40:40
  for two or three years. We taught the 1415 year olds in
• 40:44
  our community and we did, I think two or three years
• 40:46
  together, right? And in total we probably taught
• 40:50
  about 80 kids together, give or take.
• 40:53
  I think so. Me and Ahmed used to teach
• 40:54
  back-to-back. Lessons.
• 40:55
  Yeah. So we both found it challenging.
• 40:58
  That's what this is, the mentoring.
• 40:59
  No, no, this was. Teachers.
• 41:01
  And mother. So we used to teach back.
• 41:02
  To back lessons in year 9, that's what, Ahmed, why don't we
• 41:05
  merge the two lessons and we teach both together for an hour
• 41:08
  and a half? You're sick, which is a really
• 41:10
  good experience. It's a very different approaches
• 41:12
  sometimes. I would try to befriend them.
• 41:14
  And Ahmed would just. They were so scared of Ahmed
• 41:17
  Goku. Ahmed uncle, there's like, don't
• 41:20
  mess around. Yeah, can't.
• 41:21
  Mess around around, Ahmed. I was 21 and they're 16 and
• 41:24
  they. Put in my uncle.
• 41:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but it was it worked well,
• 41:28
  the approach and I think so one thing I used to do was I because
• 41:31
  we have some of them listen. So, yeah, yeah.
• 41:33
  And and they. They they were great kids
• 41:35
  because when they delved a bit deeper, you saw the realities of
• 41:39
  their individual, of their, of their personalities, which was
• 41:41
  they just wanted to seek knowledge.
• 41:43
  They wanted to understand better, but they didn't know how
• 41:46
  to get the question out without not sounding cool.
• 41:48
  Yeah, you're right. Articulation, expression.
• 41:51
  And also, like you said, that there are times, you know, what
• 41:55
  I found which which was amazing, was talking to to teenagers, you
• 42:00
  know, like, I wish I would, I could change this.
• 42:03
  And Charlotte, at some point, if I have the opportunity to teach
• 42:06
  again, I wouldn't want to talk to teenagers like kids, but I'd
• 42:10
  rather talk to them like equals in the sense of the tone, or at
• 42:14
  least the position in my mind where I'm speaking to them from.
• 42:16
  Yeah. Because they're a lot smarter
• 42:19
  than than you give them credit for, especially now.
• 42:21
  Yeah. Crazy.
• 42:22
  They have access to everything. They have access to everything.
• 42:24
  My 3 year old. My 3 year old, you know, is so
• 42:28
  smart by the time they're 16, you know, they've, they've seen
• 42:31
  everything. Do you know what I mean?
• 42:32
  And, and they understand the issues in some cases better than
• 42:35
  we do, you know, 141516 years old.
• 42:38
  You know, there's a reason why Allah has allowed children to
• 42:42
  become Bali at that sort of age at the latest, because those are
• 42:45
  the ages where they, you know, start developing maturity as a
• 42:48
  male and a female. So I think that's a big one for
• 42:52
  sure. You know what's strange?
• 42:56
  Two dates. I still have students.
• 42:58
  That come up to me in mosque or in football and they'll be like,
• 43:01
  you know, some of those Madrasi as well, like our best years.
• 43:05
  Remember, you haven't having you as.
• 43:06
  Our teacher. I was playing football with one
• 43:08
  of them a few weeks ago and I didn't play well.
• 43:10
  So after the game I was like, sorry guys, you know, I didn't
• 43:12
  play well today. He was like, no uncle, don't
• 43:14
  worry. The value you gave us some
• 43:15
  address. I was way more than your your
• 43:17
  performance value on the pitch. So I was like, I'm not sure if
• 43:20
  he insulted. Me or if he praised me, but I
• 43:23
  was like well, but they they still value that that input five
• 43:26
  years down the line and these are.
• 43:28
  The years that shape them by. The way they're very, very
• 43:30
  formative. And what I.
• 43:32
  Realized Ahmed is beyond just the classroom.
• 43:35
  Our role modelling outside of the classroom was very
• 43:41
  essential. So how you speak, how you treat
• 43:43
  others, how you behave, you know, just how you dress like
• 43:49
  they, they watch everything because they, they see you as a
• 43:51
  role model, they see you as somebody they want to become
• 43:54
  like, you know, and it's so important that when you realize
• 43:57
  that you hold that responsibility.
• 44:00
  So when you ask about nurturing young people and giving them
• 44:02
  agency, you give them agency, but your role model the better
• 44:05
  behaviour. You know, Rasulullah taught
• 44:09
  through a clock. People viewed him as a
• 44:11
  trustworthy person. He didn't just say I am
• 44:13
  trustworthy. He displayed that attribute.
• 44:17
  So it's almost upon us as leaders, as teachers, as
• 44:19
  mentors, as parents to guide by action rather than just by
• 44:24
  words. I fully agree.
• 44:26
  Yeah. And also, I think to add
• 44:27
  something to especially to this age group, and because we get a
• 44:30
  lot of people who ask about teenagers who are going off
• 44:34
  track or difficult, and you know, we have to accept the fact
• 44:37
  that youth now are different. I mean, what Manin Ali Salaam
• 44:41
  has a hadith, and I'm paraphrasing along the lines of
• 44:43
  do not raise your children the way you've been raised because
• 44:46
  they've been born in a different time, a different era to you.
• 44:49
  And I think that's telling. And the fact that that was said
• 44:51
  with such hekma such a long time ago and it's still, we see all
• 44:54
  changes now. Yeah, of course, trends, right,
• 44:57
  so. You know, and if you look at
• 44:59
  TikTok alone, so TikTok within TikTok, there's languages,
• 45:04
  there's there's, there's words, there's sounds, there's like,
• 45:07
  what's the word? I'm looking for slang that's
• 45:09
  applicable to 1. You know, like if your 15 year
• 45:12
  old is on TikTok or playing PlayStation or on YouTube or
• 45:16
  whatever it might be, I think it would be wrong.
• 45:19
  This is maybe controversial, but I think it would be wrong to it
• 45:24
  would be. It may not be the wisest thing
• 45:26
  to do to shut it all down overnight as a parent, if you're
• 45:28
  concerned, but rather to understand what they're trying
• 45:32
  to gain from that stuff, right. So, for example, they're
• 45:34
  watching that content for something, right.
• 45:36
  So they're trying to gain adrenaline, they're trying to
• 45:39
  gain maybe gain an entertainment.
• 45:41
  Maybe they're trying to gain information.
• 45:43
  I doubt in some cases, but you they're trying to gain
• 45:45
  entertainment and and you know, enjoy themselves.
• 45:48
  Trying to find an an Ave. for them to gain and release that
• 45:52
  energy somewhere else in halal way is so important.
• 45:56
  So when you stop looking at the way in which kids are doing
• 45:59
  things and trying to understand, try to understand what they want
• 46:01
  from things, your mindset shifts entirely because then you start
• 46:05
  to understand what they want, what they value, what they
• 46:08
  treasure. Sometimes it's validation
• 46:10
  online. They want validation.
• 46:12
  So they go to social media and they post selfies with their
• 46:15
  boys and they're posting, you know, music on I know I.
• 46:19
  Understand you coming from in terms of we shouldn't just ban
• 46:21
  avenues of expression, Yeah, I understand that.
• 46:24
  But I think it's very, very important to keep a lid on
• 46:28
  social media, of course, without a shadow.
• 46:30
  Especially at a young age, you know?
• 46:32
  Kids these days, 891011, they're getting phones.
• 46:34
  It's toxic. Snapchat.
• 46:35
  It's toxic. A.
• 46:37
  Lot of parents don't know what the dangers are on social media,
• 46:41
  that's the thing. And also, kids have access to
• 46:43
  information that they don't know how to process and deal with.
• 46:45
  So they're collecting all this data and all this perspective
• 46:49
  and they don't know what to do with it.
• 46:51
  And then they're either getting misguided or the thought
• 46:54
  processes are incorrect or, and and if you don't have a
• 46:57
  relationship with your children where you're talking openly
• 47:00
  about a certain subject, then they don't have anywhere to
• 47:04
  process that information, right? So.
• 47:07
  I'll give you an example. But, and, and by the way, I
• 47:09
  think like we're a lot older than the young generation at the
• 47:13
  moment. So do either of you know what an
• 47:15
  NPC is? Of course you know what it is.
• 47:18
  Do you know what it is? No, what do you know what it is?
• 47:21
  Yeah. OK, OK.
• 47:22
  Me a bunch of more touched. Yeah.
• 47:24
  I didn't know. Don't worry, I.
• 47:25
  Didn't know so we were debriefing one of our mentoring
• 47:27
  sessions at mother is that right and I got also What did you guys
• 47:30
  talk about today's the mentor goes yeah we were just
• 47:32
  discussing how all the kids think this guy's an NPC so I
• 47:36
  said you know as. Class 80% of Stan.
• 47:39
  Was NPC Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.
• 47:42
  So I said, what's that? I said what's what's an NPC non
• 47:46
  playable character. A non playable character so you
• 47:49
  know you have. These video games and like
• 47:51
  you're the main character, you're the first person and then
• 47:53
  there are other people in the game that you can't play as that
• 47:57
  person. It's like somebody walking on
• 47:59
  the street or if you're playing a game and you it's a flag free
• 48:02
  play. You walk into a coffee shop so
• 48:04
  that the guy serving coffee. The guy serving you coffee or
• 48:08
  the. Other end like somebody else in
• 48:09
  the is a non is a non playable character.
• 48:12
  You can't play as that person. So that person's an NPC.
• 48:15
  OK. So they use that in reference to
• 48:17
  individuals around you that basically don't have
• 48:20
  personality. They don't have anything to
• 48:21
  offer potentially. So they label them as NPC.
• 48:25
  Now imagine the confidence to go out there and tell somebody to
• 48:28
  their face, bro, you're an NPC. Yeah.
• 48:33
  Like, how heartbroken must that guy be?
• 48:35
  Like, I mean nothing to anyone in this world.
• 48:38
  Now, if I tell you, yeah, you're an NPC, you're going to go home,
• 48:44
  tell your partner and your kids, you guys think I'm an NPC,
• 48:47
  they'll say no, you're the main character in our life, you're
• 48:49
  fine to a 1213 year old break their home.
• 48:52
  That's like you can. Break them.
• 48:55
  So I, I was baffled. I was like, how can this, how is
• 48:57
  this a reality in today's generation?
• 48:59
  Like how are they so confident? It's go around labeling kids as
• 49:03
  NPCS and it's a normal thing. So now kids are fighting to
• 49:07
  change their identity so that they don't be an NPC.
• 49:11
  How do you become basically a stand out is you start
• 49:16
  expressing and what do you express?
• 49:18
  That which is popular. And sometimes what's popular
• 49:21
  isn't always what's right or what's best.
• 49:24
  So you see the trend. It's a slippery slope.
• 49:26
  Sometimes I'm at home doing. Too much work and then my little
• 49:29
  brother who's like 8 years old comes to me.
• 49:31
  He's like, go touch grass. I need to keep.
• 49:37
  Up with these things. You know what that.
• 49:38
  Means if I say to touch. Grass.
• 49:40
  No idea I think. That's that's I.
• 49:42
  Think going going into cross. So it's very noble and.
• 49:48
  Let's let's keep him that way. Yeah.
• 49:50
  But I said to him, you know before you.
• 49:52
  Came we were doing would you rather Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:54
  So I said, I said to him, I was like, I said to him, would you
• 49:58
  rather live in darkness or light?
• 50:00
  He said I'd rather live in darkness because Allah is the
• 50:02
  light. I said to.
• 50:04
  Him Would 100. Guys be a gorilla in a fight, he
• 50:08
  said. Yeah, I said who would you be?
• 50:09
  Who'd the 100 guys be? He said.
• 50:10
  Bassam karbalai #1 I think you know what, say Ali is an MPC.
• 50:17
  If there's an example of an MPC, a Shia MPC, This guy, bless him.
• 50:22
  Yeah. But yeah, no, definitely.
• 50:25
  That's the big one. And obviously there will come a
• 50:27
  point where we stop. I think I know most if not all
• 50:30
  of the terms and the labels, but that's because, yeah, but that
• 50:35
  that's, that's just a generational.
• 50:36
  Thing, but my point was that identity crisis for the
• 50:38
  generation which is now I have to become somebody to be
• 50:41
  relevant. You don't have to.
• 50:42
  You can be yourself if you're not relevant, it's not a bad
• 50:45
  thing. Yeah, You know, you got
• 50:47
  authentic. Yeah, yeah, authentic.
• 50:48
  Just be. Be who you.
• 50:49
  Are and sometimes to understand that you.
• 50:51
  You may not look the, the, the version of yourself at 1415 is
• 50:56
  not the finished product exactly.
• 50:57
  And we'll never reach a finished product, but obviously there'll
• 51:00
  come a point where you feel like you've, you've reached your peak
• 51:03
  of development mentally and physically and what not.
• 51:05
  At that point, you, you can look at yourself and say, right,
• 51:09
  where am I going? Where am I specializing what
• 51:11
  not? But at 1415, we can't be hard on
• 51:13
  ourselves, especially our kids, in kids and that sort of age and
• 51:17
  also nurturing, guiding, supporting, appreciating that
• 51:21
  children are fragile. And I say children, I mean youth
• 51:25
  are fragile in, in those ages and the sense of emotionally as
• 51:28
  well. And you might have.
• 51:29
  I remember at 1415, I thought I was the hardest guy in the
• 51:32
  world, right? Still do, bro.
• 51:34
  Yeah, I still do. Sometimes.
• 51:35
  I'm not going to. But you, you in reality, you're,
• 51:38
  you're you know, you're growing out of being a boy and you're
• 51:41
  trying to discover what it means to be a man.
• 51:44
  And for men, it's obviously for sisters, it's a different
• 51:46
  conversation. And we can't really speak on
• 51:47
  that. But at least for men, for boys,
• 51:49
  yeah. It's a scary world when you're
• 51:51
  growing up. It is.
• 51:52
  It is. So you try and be someone.
• 51:53
  That you you may. Not actually be indeed.
• 51:55
  And you know when I think. I'm going to go back a lot.
• 51:58
  I'm 32 so I'm going I'm going to go all the way till 141516
• 52:04
  around those ages. Yeah.
• 52:05
  And I think now, and I'm like, I wish we had certain things that
• 52:09
  were available to us in the community, for example, not
• 52:12
  handle you guys in your communities are blessed with,
• 52:14
  for example, having mentors or having ample classes of the rest
• 52:20
  of intake of students, for example.
• 52:22
  Like these are things that you are blessed with that in our
• 52:25
  time, in my age, in my communities, we weren't really
• 52:27
  blessed with that, right? But it wasn't just the
• 52:29
  spirituality that we required. We didn't have anyone, for
• 52:32
  example, to guide us. If we were suffering from grief,
• 52:37
  we didn't have anyone to guide us.
• 52:38
  If you know, how do we excel in our studies?
• 52:42
  Like there wasn't really much of that going on.
• 52:43
  I don't know if that falls into mentoring, but something I'd
• 52:46
  like to see our communities have is counselling.
• 52:50
  And I'm shocked that we are in 2025.
• 52:53
  You know, just over in the last few days and the last few weeks,
• 52:56
  how many members who have passed in the community.
• 52:59
  Every day we open up WhatsApp and Nadella who and Alayharaja
• 53:01
  own. Where do we turn to?
• 53:03
  Because it's a critical age for teenagers when they when they
• 53:07
  lose someone they love so much and someone that means to them
• 53:09
  so much, be a family member, an uncle, a far relative, even a
• 53:13
  community member, a friend, a best friend, maybe, right?
• 53:15
  Where do they turn to? I'm being real if I.
• 53:22
  Come to the. Majority of Muslim communities
• 53:24
  today, there is no services provided by any centre when it
• 53:28
  comes to, for example, bereavement.
• 53:31
  You know if someone, I was hearing on the news the other
• 53:33
  day, someone got stabbed and tragically this person was
• 53:39
  killed, he was murdered. The police service, they offered
• 53:41
  the family a special liaison officer, they offered them a
• 53:45
  bereavement team and I was thinking why doesn't our
• 53:47
  community have that in my days? There were stabbing things
• 53:50
  happening. People were dying.
• 53:51
  I had people dying in my school, the school I went to.
• 53:53
  We had friends who were stabbed, unfortunately, and they're no
• 53:55
  longer no longer working on this earth.
• 53:58
  People didn't know how to process things.
• 53:59
  It's not just spirituality, It's not just finances, education.
• 54:03
  How do we become men? You know, how do we lead
• 54:05
  families? How do we choose the right
• 54:07
  spouse? How do you go through grief?
• 54:08
  The example I gave when I was 15.
• 54:10
  Ahmed knows a bit about my story.
• 54:13
  When I lost my father, I didn't know where to turn.
• 54:16
  I genuinely didn't know where to turn.
• 54:18
  Yes, I had Allah Azzawajal, I had the Halil bait and if it
• 54:22
  wasn't forgotten the Halil bait, I would have lost the plot.
• 54:24
  I'm being very serious because when you love, when you lose
• 54:27
  someone that's so dare to you and you look up to they've
• 54:30
  raised you and everything, once they're gone, there's a void and
• 54:33
  that impacts you And that grief goes on for so long, so long, so
• 54:37
  long that I didn't know where to turn to.
• 54:38
  I went to my English Western school.
• 54:41
  I'm like, I've got a problem. I can't sleep, I can't eat, I
• 54:44
  can't think. I don't know if this is normal,
• 54:48
  the way I think, the way I feel. And they were like, you know
• 54:50
  what, let's bring you a counsellor to school whenever,
• 54:53
  if you like to talk to someone, and that helps.
• 54:56
  And I still remember Allah. And at that time I wished I was
• 54:59
  speaking to a Muslim to assure a Muslim having these
• 55:02
  conversations. I was speaking to them about
• 55:04
  God, the grave, the Akara Rasul, Allah, the Alibaba.
• 55:07
  They're thinking what on earth is going on, right?
• 55:09
  But imagine if we had that service provided in the
• 55:12
  community. Did anyone in the community
• 55:14
  reach out to you? Well, not.
• 55:17
  In not on the level of, for example, dealing with grief?
• 55:20
  No, sure, maybe not formally. But informally, yeah.
• 55:23
  Like how you're doing? Yeah.
• 55:24
  How you feeling? That's a given.
• 55:26
  Everyone's going to get that first level, but they have to go
• 55:28
  the extra step. Yeah, I just say as well they.
• 55:31
  Allow Grant mercy to say that we passed away.
• 55:35
  Says father was actually a community leader, scholar and
• 55:39
  the leader who passed away while, you know, he was giving a
• 55:42
  series of majalis and overseas on the day of Ashura.
• 55:46
  And he was a leader and I think a father figure for many of the
• 55:50
  youth in our community and for more, you know, more than anyone
• 55:54
  for said Ali and his siblings. And I think obviously in our
• 55:59
  culture and in our communities, we do this thing where we have
• 56:03
  we're great at condolences. We're great right.
• 56:07
  So dropping off food, sending messages, posting on stories, so
• 56:10
  on and so forth. But.
• 56:14
  Going one step beyond that and. Checking in with someone every
• 56:18
  few months, if not you know every few weeks at the bare
• 56:22
  minimum means something and I think it shows people that you
• 56:26
  remember something they've gone through.
• 56:28
  A friend of mine, my best friend from school, non-muslim
• 56:31
  Christian, one of my closest friends, his dad passed away a
• 56:34
  few years ago and I messaged him the other day randomly.
• 56:38
  We obviously, you know, school day is 15 years ago.
• 56:40
  We speak maybe once a year. I asked him, I said, bro, how
• 56:43
  are you doing? I miss you.
• 56:44
  How's your, you know, family? Is your mum OK?
• 56:46
  And he was like, he was shocked. He's like, how do you still
• 56:49
  remember my dad passed away? It's been like 2-3 years system,
• 56:53
  bro, you know, we're friends, right?
• 56:55
  So, and I think I think it is important to do that, but for
• 56:58
  especially for someone in that key age going through a seismic
• 57:02
  change in their life can be I mentioned this by the way, not.
• 57:06
  Because I want to have a rant, but I mentioned it's a sensitive
• 57:09
  age. I know people, sorry.
• 57:11
  I generally know people who have lost loved ones during those
• 57:16
  ages, even as far as 1819, and they've left the slum, but they
• 57:20
  don't know who to turn to. There's no outlet for them to go
• 57:23
  to and process the grief. They take it.
• 57:26
  Out on. Drugs, alcohol, eventually leave
• 57:29
  religion, ham the last. Some do come back at the end of
• 57:32
  the day, they realize, but that's a critical age.
• 57:35
  There's there's a few. Points here, the first one, and
• 57:38
  this is I think one of the most essential points is there's.
• 57:43
  A struggle in community. Leadership where we don't
• 57:46
  actually understand what the community's needs are.
• 57:50
  So we like to do things that look good rather than things
• 57:55
  that are necessarily on, that aren't, that aren't necessary.
• 57:58
  Sorry. We like to do things that look
• 58:00
  good rather than the things that are necessary.
• 58:03
  So we like to buy big buildings for millions of pounds and
• 58:07
  establish big centres without understanding whether we have
• 58:12
  certain needs that we need to put that money towards, right?
• 58:16
  Certain communities may not have a muddresser.
• 58:19
  Certain may not have a well-being service.
• 58:21
  Certain communities may not even have a centre for programs.
• 58:26
  Shia communities especially. We love to do programs.
• 58:30
  A lot of money spent on Majalis, a lot of money, and it's a very
• 58:36
  blessed thing. It's a very good thing.
• 58:38
  But I think there has to be a conversation about can that
• 58:41
  money be spent in other ways, or can.
• 58:44
  We scale. Down the spending on Majalis in
• 58:47
  any certain way and can we allocate some of those funds
• 58:50
  towards services, Youth Services, education services,
• 58:54
  support services, sports, for example, brings people together,
• 58:59
  people who may not engage with Majoris, brings them to the
• 59:02
  forefront and it gives them a chance to be part of the
• 59:04
  community, allows them to make friends with people from within
• 59:08
  the community and then be pulled back into the community.
• 59:12
  And I think that that is a very difficult conversation to have
• 59:14
  because we are very emotionally attached to our Majoris and our
• 59:18
  programs. And I'm not absolutely by no
• 59:20
  means am I saying that that lacks importance.
• 59:22
  I think it's very, very important because Majalas keeps
• 59:25
  us grounded that as of about Abdullah Hussein is a very
• 59:28
  blessed thing and it drives us forward every single time we
• 59:31
  shed even a single tear or even just show sorrow for 1%.
• 59:35
  I know it pushes us further, but pushes us further to what?
• 59:39
  To establish support for our communities and our networks.
• 59:43
  So an individual like yourself at the age of 15, to have to go
• 59:46
  through that by yourself is a very, very difficult thing.
• 59:50
  Yes, there should be established elements of the community that
• 59:52
  come to your, to your support and aid at that, at that level.
• 59:56
  But also a separate conversation is Western values of community
• 1:00:00
  don't exist in the West. It's all about me, me, me.
• 1:00:05
  It's very self-centered. It's look after yourself.
• 1:00:07
  Even look at the social media motivation stuff that comes out
• 1:00:09
  now. Look after yourself.
• 1:00:11
  Don't worry about people self-care.
• 1:00:14
  Be you know, be yourself, you know, just you know, invest in
• 1:00:18
  yourself. You know you have an option to
• 1:00:21
  give charity or to pay for this 10,000 LB course.
• 1:00:24
  Invest in yourself. That kind of like what happened
• 1:00:27
  to just reaching out to people and talking to them, just
• 1:00:31
  supporting them, just saying, how are you doing?
• 1:00:34
  There isn't an element of can I can Ioffer you some support.
• 1:00:38
  You know, in in my parents generation, when somebody passed
• 1:00:41
  away, you'd very quickly, you'd send food the next day because
• 1:00:44
  you don't want them to have to go through the hassle of
• 1:00:46
  cooking. So you would send food.
• 1:00:48
  I don't know many people in our generation that that do that.
• 1:00:50
  Yeah. It's led by elders.
• 1:00:52
  For sure. And like, I don't know if that's
• 1:00:53
  going to carry. On and I'm really worried about
• 1:00:55
  that because those are the little elements of community
• 1:00:58
  networking and community support that really go a long way really
• 1:01:03
  go a long way. There was a clip of a famous
• 1:01:06
  clip that goes on on social media.
• 1:01:07
  I think it's by Simon Sinek and he says he had a friend that
• 1:01:13
  that that went through. I think somebody passed away in
• 1:01:17
  the family and he said to them, I'm going to call you every
• 1:01:23
  single day at 9:45 AM and you don't have to answer, but I'm
• 1:01:28
  going to call you anyway. And the day that you feel like
• 1:01:30
  talking, you pick up the phone. And he said for the first week,
• 1:01:34
  he didn't answer the phone and. For the first day of the second
• 1:01:38
  week, he. Thought, oh, he's calling for
• 1:01:39
  the 8th time, let me just say hello.
• 1:01:40
  And they spoke every single day for half an hour for the next
• 1:01:44
  three weeks. So you don't know if somebody
• 1:01:46
  needs to talk unless you reach out.
• 1:01:48
  All right. And it's our job as people to
• 1:01:50
  think about others before we think of ourselves because
• 1:01:52
  that's what selflessness is. We are put on this world to be
• 1:01:57
  in service of others. So when it comes out to
• 1:02:00
  leadership, we think, oh, leadership leaders are only the
• 1:02:03
  ones at the top of the, the, the food chain.
• 1:02:05
  No, we are all leaders in our own right.
• 1:02:07
  If Ahmed's going through something, I should take the
• 1:02:09
  opportunity to call him and check in.
• 1:02:10
  How are you doing? What can I support with?
• 1:02:12
  If you're going through something, Ahmed should call
• 1:02:15
  you. How can I help?
• 1:02:16
  How can I support somebody else should be available.
• 1:02:19
  But it's about us taking the first step and being leaders in
• 1:02:22
  our own right. Without an organization, without
• 1:02:25
  an establishment, just being leaders in our friends.
• 1:02:27
  Service attached, no strings. Yeah, right.
• 1:02:29
  Not. Expecting anything in.
• 1:02:30
  Return that value doesn't exist in Western society and we have
• 1:02:35
  to cultivate that within our communities and that no.
• 1:02:37
  Expectation of anything in return I think fully encompasses
• 1:02:41
  all of the things you've mentioned.
• 1:02:43
  So the humility of the leader, the servitude of the leader and
• 1:02:47
  being able to to just do something for someone in need,
• 1:02:51
  either out of goodwill or for the sake of being able to
• 1:02:54
  develop a nurture generation to come.
• 1:02:56
  The generation that's going to be leading us tomorrow, the
• 1:02:59
  generation that's going to be burying us in our graves.
• 1:03:01
  And you know, the people we're trusting with with with the
• 1:03:05
  religion of of Allah on earth. Like that's a big thing when
• 1:03:08
  we're talking about the Muslim community at large as well as
• 1:03:11
  definitely, definitely a big thing.
• 1:03:13
  A last question from me is obviously we, we, you mentioned
• 1:03:20
  social media. I think social media initial
• 1:03:25
  space is for many people like Marmite.
• 1:03:29
  So you have those who are more active on social media, I mean
• 1:03:33
  organisations, brands like including aftermarket scholars
• 1:03:38
  who some may say are performative, who are
• 1:03:41
  controversial with their takes, who understand the algorithm.
• 1:03:46
  You know, they talk about contentious topics, reels, click
• 1:03:50
  bait stuff, so on and so forth. All right.
• 1:03:52
  Then there are others who are either not active on social
• 1:03:55
  media, don't have a presence or who are posting just humble,
• 1:03:58
  honest work. I think that there are two types
• 1:04:01
  of people. You get those who are
• 1:04:02
  disillusioned with the performative nature of people
• 1:04:05
  and you get those who are drawn by it, right?
• 1:04:08
  What? What do you think, what role do
• 1:04:13
  you think Shia leadership has in, in that sort of space?
• 1:04:16
  Is there a model which you think should be followed by leaders in
• 1:04:20
  the Shia space? So imagine we've got scholars
• 1:04:22
  listening right now, for example, and we've got leaders
• 1:04:24
  of Gemarts and we've got leaders of, you know, educational
• 1:04:28
  institutions, whatever, so on and so forth.
• 1:04:30
  What message do you have for them when it comes to, for
• 1:04:32
  example, their online involvement?
• 1:04:34
  Is there something which they should do or shouldn't do?
• 1:04:37
  And how does that work? And advice for us as well,
• 1:04:39
  because we fall into that bracket.
• 1:04:41
  Yeah, I think it's a difficult question.
• 1:04:43
  For you to put forward for myself, I'm not a social media
• 1:04:46
  expert, so I can't really comment on all people, no, but I
• 1:04:48
  think from the perspective. Of how to carry one song, How to
• 1:04:51
  carry. The leadership perspective.
• 1:04:52
  Your because those who have a platform are leaders online at
• 1:04:56
  the yeah, yeah, I think those have a.
• 1:04:57
  Plat yeah, I understand. I think those have a platform
• 1:04:59
  have a responsibility to be authentic and and to be true to
• 1:05:03
  their to their word. I'm personally not a fan of
• 1:05:07
  click bait topics and click bait posts.
• 1:05:11
  I understand. For example, people posting
• 1:05:13
  shorts in reels because you can, you know, put snippets of advice
• 1:05:16
  in 1 1/2 two minutes. But the depth of understanding
• 1:05:21
  doesn't come with five minute videos, right?
• 1:05:25
  There's a space for five minute videos.
• 1:05:28
  It's like teaching people. Yeah, short teaching people how
• 1:05:31
  to do certain. Things you know, learning from
• 1:05:34
  YouTube Shorts or TikTok or Instagram Reels is not real
• 1:05:38
  learning. You're not going to learn real
• 1:05:40
  things from there. The scholars that are posting
• 1:05:43
  long form content are the ones that are trying to approach deep
• 1:05:47
  learning, so I think we have to respect that.
• 1:05:50
  OK, interesting. Do you?
• 1:05:51
  Think that's do you think that's because see.
• 1:05:55
  That's interesting because we for.
• 1:05:56
  Example in our case, we we keep the long term, obviously the
• 1:05:59
  long, the long form content online, the short form content.
• 1:06:03
  I think if you ask any content creator is the hook so bites,
• 1:06:07
  you know, bite size knowledge or tips or something humorous or
• 1:06:10
  something, you know, Hadith or something, whatever it might be.
• 1:06:13
  And we use that as a hook. And yeah, we're not like, you
• 1:06:16
  know, unaware. We've had thirty, 40 million
• 1:06:19
  views on on social media in the last two years or whatever.
• 1:06:23
  Fully understand that. Of course, you know when you
• 1:06:26
  come there's a question just so you can plug your number.
• 1:06:28
  Of views in the class Bro sponsor us.
• 1:06:31
  You know anyone's listening. But now I like.
• 1:06:33
  Thanks, Ahmed. Yeah, but obviously the.
• 1:06:35
  Longer form of content which we'd want to drive people to.
• 1:06:38
  We appreciate that it never gets the same views.
• 1:06:41
  But again, like you mentioned at the beginning, substance is so
• 1:06:44
  important. So how many scholars have been.
• 1:06:48
  Defamed due to things taken out of context.
• 1:06:50
  Oh my God, how many? WhatsApp Clips 30.
• 1:06:53
  Seconds long, 60 seconds long. Things taken out of context, out
• 1:06:57
  of context, right? I don't want to make any
• 1:07:00
  references because we don't want to go down the rabbit hole, but
• 1:07:03
  how many we've seen, of course seen it.
• 1:07:04
  It's too many. All right.
• 1:07:07
  So why would we? Why would we put, why would we
• 1:07:10
  put ourselves in a position at risk of exposure?
• 1:07:13
  If you feel that short form content is beneficial, fine.
• 1:07:15
  Let's, let's, let's do it. Let's get people into listening.
• 1:07:18
  But not at the expense of bad exposure misrepresentation.
• 1:07:23
  Making the wrong point. You know, so I think that's
• 1:07:27
  really, really essential because you have to be careful with your
• 1:07:30
  behaviour in social media. But ultimately being authentic
• 1:07:32
  is the most important thing. People need to feel like they
• 1:07:35
  aren't, you know, that an organization or an institution
• 1:07:39
  is hearing what they think and is representing what they think.
• 1:07:42
  And it's trying to push forward an idea of what they believe to
• 1:07:45
  be true to a certain extent, or what is, you know, truth social.
• 1:07:51
  Media is it's just a. Platform, it's not the be all
• 1:07:54
  and end all by any means. And we risk the risk we have
• 1:07:58
  today, today is that we treat social media as the end point,
• 1:08:02
  not the vehicle. The end point is building a
• 1:08:05
  community that's trying to get closer to a last panel TADA and
• 1:08:10
  preparing for the return of Sahaba Zaman.
• 1:08:14
  This is just a. Vehicle.
• 1:08:15
  It's just a platform. Tomorrow social media could be
• 1:08:17
  gone. Somebody takes over, shuts down
• 1:08:20
  the Internet, you're done. What happens to podcast then?
• 1:08:22
  Bans. Bans anything.
• 1:08:24
  Online, whatever it is, banned social media, but there you go.
• 1:08:27
  So. When you did the in person
• 1:08:29
  event, for example, the conversations you had there, the
• 1:08:32
  meaningful interactions you had there are much more substantial
• 1:08:37
  than just online views. Yeah, if you tell me I've got 40
• 1:08:40
  million views online, it doesn't mean anything compared to how
• 1:08:43
  many attendees you had in person and how many meaningful
• 1:08:45
  interactions you had. I know that's is is interesting
• 1:08:47
  because. For me, on a personal level, the
• 1:08:50
  the podcast, the the guys who are listening right now an hour
• 1:08:53
  into the podcast are the guys that are, you know, we love the
• 1:08:56
  one percenters, you know what I mean?
• 1:08:58
  We love them all. So we love them all.
• 1:09:00
  They're the ones. The special ones I think find
• 1:09:01
  value because there's. There you can see there's a
• 1:09:03
  thirst. For knowledge and we bring on
• 1:09:05
  amazing guests and discuss amazing topics every week.
• 1:09:07
  So those guys shout to them. I have one last last, last, last
• 1:09:11
  last because I realised I didn't ask this earlier.
• 1:09:13
  He's trying to get there. He's cancelled.
• 1:09:14
  Yeah, 100%. Is there a way?
• 1:09:16
  For me or anyone who's listening to determine if they are a
• 1:09:20
  leader or not, is there a litmus test that they can do?
• 1:09:24
  Because if I look at myself on a personal level, I've I to this
• 1:09:27
  day don't know my answer. I feel like I have leadership
• 1:09:30
  qualities, but I don't know if I'd call myself a leader in many
• 1:09:33
  cases. I want to follow someone who I
• 1:09:35
  knows. Do you know what I mean?
• 1:09:38
  Muj if you. Take Me Out of context, I will
• 1:09:39
  come after you. Yeah, if you're the group chat.
• 1:09:43
  Admin. You're a leader.
• 1:09:44
  Group chat admin. I like if you're a group chat
• 1:09:46
  admin, yeah. Muj is definitely.
• 1:09:48
  A leader. Yeah, In many spaces, I don't
• 1:09:52
  like this or that questions. It's too definitive and it's too
• 1:09:56
  limiting. I don't want to be vague abroad
• 1:09:58
  either. I appreciate that you're
• 1:10:01
  definitely both leaders because you're in a position of
• 1:10:03
  influence. So whether you like it or not,
• 1:10:05
  you hold authority over. Yeah, but putting aside US, but.
• 1:10:09
  I'm saying anyone listening personality wise I.
• 1:10:11
  Think you need to look inwards? The journey towards Allah is a
• 1:10:15
  journey inwards. The more you discover yourself,
• 1:10:17
  the more you have self-awareness, the more you
• 1:10:19
  understand what your weaknesses and strengths are.
• 1:10:21
  You can push forward in the strength and improve the
• 1:10:23
  weaknesses. I think that's what true
• 1:10:25
  leadership me needs. If you know, I think real
• 1:10:31
  leaders will always have imposter syndrome.
• 1:10:35
  Imposter. Imposter syndrome.
• 1:10:37
  You will always feel like you're not deserving of where you are
• 1:10:40
  because there's always something greater to achieve and that is
• 1:10:43
  just the natural order of things.
• 1:10:44
  That's the way Allah has designed us, which is to always
• 1:10:47
  want to get further and further closer to Him.
• 1:10:49
  So if you find yourself comfortable.
• 1:10:51
  Would you say something is wrong?
• 1:10:53
  I think if you're. Sitting in a position of comfort
• 1:10:56
  and you think that you're a great, fantastic, best leader in
• 1:10:58
  the world, then there's a problem there.
• 1:11:01
  I think having that humility and self-awareness is important.
• 1:11:04
  There's no harm in having confidence.
• 1:11:05
  Absolutely not too much confidence turns into arrogance.
• 1:11:08
  That's the problem. But recognizing leadership
• 1:11:11
  skills within yourself, you know, getting things done, being
• 1:11:15
  relatable with people, being transparent and authentic.
• 1:11:19
  I think those are, you know, really, really essential points.
• 1:11:22
  So for example, for myself, where I've noticed me being
• 1:11:27
  performative on social media historically, I've reduced my
• 1:11:30
  social media presence now and interaction because I realized I
• 1:11:34
  started to do things that would gain likes rather than doing
• 1:11:37
  things I wanted to do right. So you start to post things that
• 1:11:40
  will get you reposts or start to create content that will be
• 1:11:44
  funny or interactive rather than meaningful.
• 1:11:47
  And that is a very key difference.
• 1:11:50
  So for me, that was a problem in terms of authenticity.
• 1:11:55
  Now that is a value that I hold very closely.
• 1:11:58
  So, you know, again, leadership was a broad term, identifying
• 1:12:01
  yourself as a leader. It could be in the workspace,
• 1:12:03
  you might be very good at a job, could be in the household, could
• 1:12:06
  be in a family space, could be in a community space.
• 1:12:09
  People know when they're in positions of leadership, but you
• 1:12:12
  always have to be working towards improving yourself.
• 1:12:15
  That's that's that's there's one more point.
• 1:12:18
  I think you know the. Best example of a leader is.
• 1:12:21
  The is the Prophet Muhammad and even Amir Al Mahmunin followed
• 1:12:26
  his principles of leadership. If you look at the advice that
• 1:12:29
  Meal Mamin gives Malika Lasharin, the letter in National
• 1:12:32
  Bulaga, it's very similar to the way the way the Prophet led his
• 1:12:35
  community. Number one, he led through
• 1:12:38
  action. He never sacrificed unity within
• 1:12:42
  the community. It's a really good series on
• 1:12:44
  YouTube by Said Ali Imran on the Serie of the Prophet.
• 1:12:46
  And he talks about managing community tensions and how to
• 1:12:49
  sort of manage those elements. But the four principles he goes
• 1:12:52
  through was #1 maintaining unity in the community, never making a
• 1:12:56
  decision that would cause disunity, that would cause
• 1:12:58
  chaos, that would cause problems within the community, trying to
• 1:13:01
  always keep things civil and keep people moving in the right
• 1:13:04
  direction. That's one.
• 1:13:07
  Number two was maintaining the dignity of people like Karamna
• 1:13:12
  Beni Adam. The last part, Allah has given
• 1:13:14
  people dignity and honour. So not belittling anyone,
• 1:13:17
  maintaining people's higher their dignity.
• 1:13:19
  If somebody comes to you asking for money or welfare or support
• 1:13:23
  or help, that should be a confidential issue.
• 1:13:25
  You know, re maintaining that, that privacy, keeping people's
• 1:13:29
  dignity afloat is very, very important.
• 1:13:31
  That's another principle that he mentions.
• 1:13:35
  The third one is ensuring the well-being of the community and
• 1:13:39
  not making decisions that send the community into disarray.
• 1:13:42
  But part of that I think comes to your point, which is are.
• 1:13:46
  We really looking at the needs of the.
• 1:13:47
  Entire community versus just the Majalis or the programs that
• 1:13:52
  gain the highest attendance. So we have a tendency in this
• 1:13:55
  metric world to do things that are popular versus doing things
• 1:13:59
  that are meaningful. We need to find a balance of the
• 1:14:03
  two. So as leaders in different
• 1:14:05
  spaces, we need to try and find things that are popular so that
• 1:14:09
  people engage with it, but then can also be meaningful or do
• 1:14:13
  other things that are also meaningful.
• 1:14:15
  It might have less engagement, but it will be more impactful.
• 1:14:18
  If we had 1000 lbs, should we do another much list or should we
• 1:14:23
  focus on supporting 5 people with grief counselling for
• 1:14:25
  example? Right?
• 1:14:27
  Can you change? Can you change 5 lives here?
• 1:14:30
  Yes you can. You might not get 1000 attendees
• 1:14:33
  but you can change 5 lives. How amazing is that?
• 1:14:36
  So we need to shift our perspective on that.
• 1:14:39
  And #4 is prioritizing Islamic values over non Islamic values.
• 1:14:43
  I think that's another. Very, very key.
• 1:14:45
  Attribute. We did.
• 1:14:46
  We did an episode. About the theatre, I wasn't on
• 1:14:49
  that episode. You did it with with my Ali on.
• 1:14:53
  The theatre, I would say. That Ali Moran, which is oh,
• 1:14:55
  brilliant. It's definitely worth watching
• 1:14:57
  for sure. And people are in the season 3.
• 1:14:59
  Yeah, yeah, I didn't even know that myself.
• 1:15:04
  Well, yeah, check that out guys. Anything that I'd lost it
• 1:15:07
  before? No, I want to say I think you've
• 1:15:08
  raised. In fact, you've contributed so
• 1:15:10
  much food for thought for myself, a lot to think about,
• 1:15:14
  reflect on. And you know, I, I never, you
• 1:15:17
  know, when Ahmed told me let's discuss leadership, I was like,
• 1:15:21
  what are we going to discuss? Because I I don't know where to
• 1:15:23
  begin. But I think you've set us like
• 1:15:25
  you, you you've set us in a direction to take things
• 1:15:28
  seriously, especially here, like in the podcast, see it from from
• 1:15:31
  a different lens, different perspective.
• 1:15:32
  Inshallah. You mentioned so many traits and
• 1:15:34
  I think Ahmed had many of them. So every time you mentioned
• 1:15:37
  something I was thinking, yeah, I haven't even the even the
• 1:15:39
  point of, you know, you were speaking about reaching out to
• 1:15:42
  someone that thinks Ahmed does this to me, by the way.
• 1:15:44
  He calls me randomly. Yeah.
• 1:15:46
  How you doing? He's very good at that.
• 1:15:47
  And that's something. I need to learn from you by.
• 1:15:49
  The way. So thank you for that.
• 1:15:51
  I told Mohammed a couple. Times last week, you know, he,
• 1:15:53
  he, I've mentioned this to you so many times.
• 1:15:55
  He got injured. Like playing football, right?
• 1:15:58
  Yeah, yeah, Monday. Night, Yeah.
• 1:16:01
  Probably watching Monday night now he he hurt his leg, OK.
• 1:16:05
  And our kids, our kids go to the same school.
• 1:16:09
  So obviously my my kid found out.
• 1:16:11
  He says his Amor damned you okay, Like he's asked me on a
• 1:16:15
  day-to-day basis, but laugh at two weeks.
• 1:16:17
  I was I'm dodge. Did he did he go to the doctor?
• 1:16:20
  Did he get a bandage on his knee?
• 1:16:21
  Is he feeling all right? Like he's genuinely worried for
• 1:16:24
  his well-being? And I'm like, relax, he's
• 1:16:28
  learning that from you. You.
• 1:16:31
  Know. Muhammad, as as I've said
• 1:16:33
  before, is like a brother to me. And I think for a lot of us as,
• 1:16:37
  as friends of him, we've learned a lot from him.
• 1:16:39
  And, and I wouldn't be surprised to see where he takes, you know,
• 1:16:47
  I, I need to be careful how he's going to continue serving
• 1:16:51
  through leadership Inshallah in the coming years.
• 1:16:53
  I would be, I'm really excited to see where that journey takes
• 1:16:57
  him. I think we'll all Inshallah
• 1:16:58
  benefit from that. And thank you.
• 1:16:59
  Thank you. I'm not deserving.
• 1:17:00
  Of any of this credit, you know, anything we get, it's a blessing
• 1:17:04
  from a last Panathala. So if you give us, if he gives
• 1:17:06
  us more opportunities to serve, then we will we will put
• 1:17:08
  ourselves together and and, and last, no.
• 1:17:12
  Thank you. Thank.
• 1:17:13
  You and. Last thing is thank you to all
• 1:17:14
  of those who have led us thus, for our parents, our teachers,
• 1:17:17
  our family, those who have served in the community, those
• 1:17:21
  who don't usually get the credit.
• 1:17:23
  I know we had this a lot, but they are the foundations, the
• 1:17:26
  rocks of where we are as a generation.
• 1:17:29
  And we owe a lot to to you if you're listening.
• 1:17:32
  So thank you so much, those who gave us the platform to succeed.
• 1:17:35
  Absolutely trained us, who mentored us, who taught us how
• 1:17:38
  to speak, how to carry ourselves, you know, key
• 1:17:40
  elements that it's not written in a book, it's shown in
• 1:17:43
  practice. And you know, may Allah give us
• 1:17:46
  the wisdom to replicate. All right guys, thank you very
• 1:17:51
  much. If you're still here, make sure
• 1:17:53
  you subscribe and smash the like button.
• 1:17:57
  We're going to be back inshallah next week.
• 1:18:01
  I'm looking forward to it. I don't even know what the
• 1:18:02
  conversation is next week, but that's going to be good
• 1:18:05
  inshallah. So we'll see you then guys.
• 1:18:07
  Take care some while they come up to live and look at.