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56. The Missing Piece in Wealth Planning: Beneficiary Education with Torri Hawley · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

0:00
SPEAKER_00: If you want to offer education, have a really clear on-ramp for your clients and what you want to do.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: So if you generically say that you offer education, you're likely to have a lot of positive conversations.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: You are not going to build out this area of service.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to build a new revenue stream.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to build your business.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, imagine that you say to your client, here's five things I educate around, right?
0:25
SPEAKER_00: And I have a curriculum attached to them.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: I have activities attached to them.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: This is a real offering that I have.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Here's how long it takes.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: And here's your commitment.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: In our conversation today, I heard you say, I am interested in understanding this topic more.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Should we start there?
0:40
SPEAKER_00: So, like that dynamic, that's gonna go way better than just saying, yeah, we educate.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I see on people's websites very frequently.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Whether it's mastering discovery meaning handling sensitive client conversations or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, hi.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: I should probably introduce myself.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I'm joined by Tori Hawley, the Chief Learning Officer for the U.S.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: Division for Tamar and Learning.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Tori, welcome to the show.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for coming on.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: I am so excited to be here.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: I love your podcast.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: So I'm uh really excited to share with your audience today.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes, as I am too.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: So our topic for today, the thing that we're going to get into, is really the role of advisors in family wealth education.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad we're talking about this because this has come up a little bit more.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: I've seen it out in the ecosystem that is LinkedIn around like, how much should we be doing?
2:57
SPEAKER_01: Should we be doing this?
2:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is our role?
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Should we hire somebody to do this?
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Should we outsource this?
3:02
SPEAKER_01: If we were gonna do it, like what would that look like?
3:05
SPEAKER_01: Just a lot of things around the role for advisors in education.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm glad to have you on here and talking about this because I'll be honest, this is like an area where I might have some opinions, but I don't really have any like scope here.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad that we have you to share with us today.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: So let's just jump right in, both feet into the water.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I think is really interesting about you is that you have a pretty unique, maybe even rare, perspective here in this work, because not only are you a professional in family wealth education, but you also grew up inside of a 150-year-old enterprising family, which I'm just like, oh my goodness.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: Like when I read that, I was like, that is fantastic.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: And serving as like a seventh generation member.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: So what a unique perspective here for you experientially.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And so, what I'd love to maybe start out talking about is when you think about your own experience coming up just in that system.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: What do you think maybe advisors most often misunderstand about what it is actually like to be a rising gen member?
4:20
SPEAKER_00: So, one of the reasons I actually work in this field is because of my experience with wealth education as a rising gen member.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: We did a lot of things that were sort of clunky and we didn't do a great job.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: But on the advisor side, I do have sort of a funny anecdote to share.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: So, a mistake that one of the big auditing firms that worked with our operating company, and this happened like 15 years ago, I laugh about it to this day, addressed our family on a conference call as good morning, gentlemen.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: 100% of G6 and G7 are women.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: 100% of generational ownership at that point of time were women.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: So I think one of the biggest, and this is like so obvious, right?
5:04
SPEAKER_00: But read the room, be situationally aware, be sensitive.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Because I can say out of the gate, at that point of time, I did not have any power or oversight or choice, but I sure remember that happening.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: I talk about it on podcasts, right?
5:20
SPEAKER_00: And now that I have decision, I'm certainly going to be thinking about that.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: And so where that sort of goes for me, and this is actually the first time I've ever heard a firm articulate this was this week, someone identified their young rising gen clients as downstream clients.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: And thinking about these younger folks as people who you are going to be serving if you do your job well.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I think our jobs as advisors who are serving these families is to see those people as human beings.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: They aren't developing.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: They are just like your kids or your niece or your nephew.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: And so I think like we have to really do a good job of not labeling them as like poor little rich kid.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: Can you believe they don't have savings?
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Can you believe that they aren't doing X?
6:06
SPEAKER_00: Can you believe they showed up to this meeting in this particular way?
6:09
SPEAKER_00: These are young people who have been existing in a pressure cooker.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: And so how they're showing up to you as an advisor is probably not the full story.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: So I also have a story about something that went really well as well, if that uh sounds good to share.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: So that was like one aspect, one dynamic that I think didn't go super well.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: But something that was really positive was my grandfather's attorney was like his age and never tried to relate with us.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: But what he did was invite one of his junior partners to be in the room.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: So I have known this guy literally since I was 10 years old.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: And he wasn't even doing anything with my grandfather, right?
6:51
SPEAKER_00: He was just there in the room as a young person.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: And now we're talking 30 years later, and I have a relationship with him.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: And he was always holding space, he was always present, he never pressured us, he treated us like human beings, he knows my dog's names, you know.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: So, like just seeing your rising gen downstream clients as human beings and people worth knowing makes a world of difference.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, there's so much wrapped up in there that I just like preach, yes, yes, yes.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's across the board for all advisors, right?
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Like I know certainly we're talking about in the context of like family enterprise here, but just across the board, like working with clients, especially with retirees and thinking about that, just getting to know those downstream clients as humans and thinking about them that way is fantastic advice.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: So I really like there's a part of me, Tori, that was like, I really want to go back to this like story around saying, you know, good morning, gentlemen.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: I oh my goodness.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm having to like tame the beast.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: I guess what I'm curious about for you, and I hope that it's okay that I'm asking is because I don't want to make assumptions, but I really would like for people that are listening to hear is in that moment, like if we go back to that moment, and I'm sure you can, it sounds like you very much can recall it and bring it, you know, to the present.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what did it say to you that this advisor calling the room, like, hey, gentlemen, like what was the meaning that you took from it?
8:26
SPEAKER_01: Certainly there were some emotions, but what did it say to you on the client end, on the client side?
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think these sort of intrinsic beliefs about who is engaged in business, who is engaged in finance, what a shareholder or an owner looks like.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think as a young woman, I was pretty angry about it, kind of ironically.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: After the, I mean, at the time, I also, I'm sure, like chortled because I'm an outspoken person and I was with very safe people, which are my like sisters and my aunts.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm like chortled at them.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: But my grandmother, who was sort of more again, these were my grandfather's advisors, trusted by him.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: He had selected them to work with.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: After the fact, I said, Can you believe they addressed us as gentlemen?
9:12
SPEAKER_00: And my grandmother said, I can't believe you're making a big deal out of that.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't matter.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: So I think also in that moment, having enough awareness that this is truly a generational experience.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: So I also think for rising gen members, you are allowed to be annoyed.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Old people say off-colored things.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: And that is just sometimes how it's gonna be.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So the flip side of this, right, is your advisors are also human beings and no one is infallible.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes, very good point.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: I have often joked that I look forward to becoming of a certain age where in my mind, I think I think this is very naive, but the freedom to say just exactly like stream of consciousness, like exactly like what's on my mind.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: But I know that I probably should not do that because it likely would be offensive and not nice.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: But to your point, right, like from a meaning standpoint, like there's a lot wrapped up there.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad to hear that at least how things worked out from you, and this might be an assumption, you know, is that you were able to take that and really turn it into a positive experience.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: I would not be surprised if there were some women in that same situation who maybe didn't quite turn that into just a moment for them where they can like move past it and not develop, you know, any kind of deep insecurities or like avoidance for that.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: So keeping in mind, you know, language matters and it sounds like you took it and made it something great.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Some clients may not have, and that can really make a big difference.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: So we've talked a little bit here about kind of downstream clients.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: I like this language here that we're using.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: I think that it's really great.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: I know there's a meaningful difference between a family where next gen education feels empowering and one where it feels like something being done almost like to the next generation, if that makes any sense.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: So I guess what I'm curious about is what separates those two experiences in your mind, maybe from like a mental standpoint, from a psychological standpoint, and what are maybe some early signals that kind of tell you which direction the family is heading when it comes to that education?
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: I won't lean too crazy hard into instructional design and education theory and all these things.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Instead, I'm gonna tell you two stories.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: So the first is father came to me, he put his children on the invite, they were invited to the conversation, they didn't show up to the call, they didn't RSVP, nothing.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: The parent outlines all of his fears and concerns.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: He tells me some not so nice anecdotes about his irresponsible children.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: He tells me what they need to learn, they need to learn financial statements, or they're never gonna participate in this business.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: We send the enrollments out, the kids never log in, I never interface with them, I never have a conversation.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: A year later, their education expires and I get a nasty email from dad.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: My kids never engaged.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: What's the problem with your solution?
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's one story and sort of a composite of things that have happened over the years.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: And then the flip, and this just happened to me recently.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: And I am like, I feel like if you can feel my energy just beaming about this interaction because it was great.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: So a dad jumps on a call, he introduces his daughter to me, he tells me all about his other two children in this like wonderful, loving language.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: He finally introduces himself at this point, and then he is repeatedly redirecting my questioning to his daughter who is on the call with us.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: And he is leaning in, he is curious.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: I finally pick up on dad may be the sponsor of education.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: In this case, he is not the client.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: So then I'm having this wonderful conversation with this young woman.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: She is sharing and she feels so safe in front of her parent.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Say, I'm scared of getting distributions.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it means to me.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: This is gonna happen.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: How is it gonna impact my relationships?
13:11
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm not ready to jump into the investing stuff.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you have for me?
13:15
SPEAKER_00: And dad goes, I hear you.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: I am so confident you're gonna be able to do this, right?
13:21
SPEAKER_00: So at the end of the call, he doesn't ask me what I want to do.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: He turns to her and he says, Do you want to do this education?
13:28
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to talk to your siblings?
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Is that something you can take on, or do you want to do that together?
13:33
SPEAKER_00: I left that call 100% confident that they're not only gonna do Tamarind and the work that I do, but that they're gonna be engaged and empowered.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: So those two dynamics play out in the families that I work with all the time.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, as a parent myself, it's hard, I know, sometimes to loosen the reins.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we like to believe that we are the knower of all things and the knower of what our kids should know, right?
14:00
SPEAKER_01: You need to learn this.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: You need to, here's how this is.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: And I think those are two just beautiful stories that highlight really what's different here is the approach in my mind, right?
14:12
SPEAKER_01: With the same thing, the same like outcome or desired out, like we want them to learn, but like really the approach is what matters here.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like from the first story, like when clients, we'll just say clients like approach, when parents approach things from a, I'm gonna tell you what to do, I'm gonna dictate it to you, not just like their kid, but also to you, right?
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Like here's what they're gonna learn, here's what they need to do, right?
14:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, of course, like they're not gonna be engaged from that place.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: Can we talk a little bit more than just around other helpful pieces here?
14:44
SPEAKER_01: I guess when it comes to, you know, setting up like that next gen from an education standpoint.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, what else is helpful?
14:52
SPEAKER_01: What would you recommend?
14:53
SPEAKER_01: What do you talk about with clients as far as things that an advisor, I guess, can do that are helpful for guiding those parents?
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think again, I'll come back to emotional intelligence in this space.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to tell you this.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Money is uncomfortable for people.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: And parents who have a significant amount of wealth to pass on to their children are freaking out.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: They're freaking out that they spent too much time in the business and not enough time parenting.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: So I think like understanding the roles and perspectives that are going on in the dynamics that are happening is really, really helpful.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: I'll come back to just empathizing with all the parties.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: I meet with 40, 50 year old folks who are as uneducated and as freaked out, but they're making a change because they're now thinking about their own kids, right?
15:44
SPEAKER_00: So observing those people who are trying to kind of break generational patterns, who are trying to do things differently, leaning into those clients who you can tell they want the right thing for their kids.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: I think all of these things are helpful.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Starting small, one of the things that I've learned with my time at Tamarind is I can be very overwhelming with all of the possibilities.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: But instead saying, what if we learned this one thing?
16:09
SPEAKER_00: What would change?
16:10
SPEAKER_00: What would be different for you if education were going to happen?
16:14
SPEAKER_00: So I think too, also knowing what your lane is is really important as well.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And I'll maybe get into that a little bit later, but not everyone should be an educator.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: So I think knowing what you can and can't do is essential.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that you said that.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: And I hold the same belief, whether it's education or just any type of other aspect or piece of client care, right?
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Is that you may not be the best fit, nor do you have to be everything for all of your clients.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's really best to, I'll say outsource, but step back, right?
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Really, and allow somebody else to come in.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: So let's kind of go in that vein then.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: So when is it best to allow for someone to come in and lead from an education standpoint?
16:56
SPEAKER_01: What do you recommend?
16:57
SPEAKER_01: What do you suggest?
16:59
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that's really cool about the advisor's role is you have the opportunity to be outside the system of the family dynamics that are happening, right?
17:09
SPEAKER_00: And so you actually have this opportunity where you are not mired in their family scripts and you know, Susan spends money this way and so-and-so maxed out their credit cards.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: So you have that opportunity to actually sort of intervene with what you are seeing in a more nuanced way, assuming that you are not fully sort of entrenched in mom and dad's beliefs about their kids, right?
17:32
SPEAKER_00: So I think one of the areas where I see experts kind of stumble with education, and I have to actually credit this to my Canadian counterpart, Cindy Radu, she explains it really well.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: She's a technical advisor herself.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: And she talks about how one of the reasons why she originally got involved with Tamarin is like she's a tax trust in estate.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: And so when she is trying to educate her clients about those things, she cannot see the forest for the trees.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: She immediately goes down to this just passed, this just happened, there's this strategy that's really actionable.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: When your client needs to know what the term estate planning is and means to them, right?
18:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's usually when I'll sort of nudge an expert to lean on someone to help with education, is if they are not someone who wants to lean into that kind of qualitative relational, emotional work, do not lean on your expertise.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Lean on that when they've been educated.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And then you can help them make the amazing informed decision that they want to, right?
18:34
SPEAKER_00: So that's usually the place where I see is if you don't want to touch this murky work, don't do it poorly.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Instead, bring someone else in who can kind of help and give them the instructional materials that they need.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good point, just around sometimes, what does that say?
18:49
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, sometimes enough is like good enough or good enough, whatever it is.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: Like we can be good enough, right?
18:55
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if like that's the approach we want to take here when it comes to education of eh, it's just like good enough.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: I did some, right?
19:02
SPEAKER_01: I guess what are the risks there from your perspective of I want to say doing like education poorly, but you know, if it's like okay, like what are some of the risks in your mind?
19:13
SPEAKER_00: So I think if it doesn't go well, it's a missed opportunity for you.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: You miss that opportunity to connect to those rising gen clients.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think the immediate question is, well, then I shouldn't outsource, right?
19:25
SPEAKER_00: But instead, you are a person who says, I have just the thing for you.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Let me connect you to someone who does this really well.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: I would 100% of the time rather have my trusted advisor say, I can't do this.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: I know someone who does, I have a relationship with them, run with them and then partner with that outside resource.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: And so this is like this growing idea in the family enterprise and the family office space of these multidisciplinary teams, right?
19:52
SPEAKER_00: That you may be good at really one thing.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Should your firm widen and widen and widen, or should they lean on other people who are experts in this?
20:00
SPEAKER_00: And so in the work that I do, we are increasingly being leveraged by law firms and estate planners and finance and all these sorts of different folks who they issue spot with their clients because they have intimate relationships with them.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And then they say, but I don't want to do that.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: And the joke I always make, Ashley, as it turns out, developing curriculum, it's a full-time job.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's my job.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can imagine.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Now, you talked about earlier something that I thought was really interesting and bringing it to almost kind of the curriculum place.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of rising gen clients, people, they have expressed, maybe even like wrestled with these feelings or thoughts around belonging, identity, I didn't earn this, like a sense of like deservedness too.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot of emotional, psychological things going on here for these clients.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just curious, like from your perspective, how does like the way that a family approaches wealth education support or maybe even complicate that identity or belonging?
21:08
SPEAKER_01: And how can advisors maybe be aware of those emotional undercurrents while doing all of this?
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: I want to answer this in two parts because I think they deserve kind of two sections here.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So from where I sit, I see families over and over and over again dive headfirst into technical education because it feels safe.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Like they're like, we're gonna go into our balance sheet, we're gonna go into our investments, and we are really focused on this objective.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And what I see is that it is destabilizing, it's overwhelming.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: And how I view it, right, is it's like giving the keys to a sports car to someone who still has the training wheels on their bike.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: And so the question I always ask families if you're concerned about entitlement, if you are concerned that they're going to Ask how much are we worth?
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Which is a natural question and I think a fair question to ask.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Why on earth would you start with a lesson about financial statements, which is purely financial, right?
22:11
SPEAKER_00: So this is where I see families kind of stumble a little bit, is they jump into what they know, they jump into what the CFO can help them with, with a subject matter expert, their financial advisor teams, and they say, yeah, we can teach financial education.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's really this opportunity to like go way, way, way, way back.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And at Tamarin, and what we do is we have intentional scaffolded education that starts with beneficiary identity specifically.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And so then if you talk about inheritor characteristics and what that means in our family, then later on, when we show the balance sheet, we're acting in alignment with what the family has said is appropriate behaviors.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: And so I think often what happens, right, is we try and cram education as a family into once a year without recognizing that we are constantly financially educating.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: When you go to the grocery store, when you buy a new sports car, when you buy a yacht, when you go to Bali, when you don't go to Bali, when you do XYZ, all of this is educating and demonstrating to your children, particularly when they're young, right?
23:14
SPEAKER_00: And so most families teach their children around the age of 27 what they're worth, what they're going to inherit, what their trust structures are like.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you gotta start at like five years old and be building to that big reveal.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: There should never be a big reveal.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know there's a lot of opinions on that.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: When is the right time for the big, but age, like aside, like I'm with you from a parenting standpoint, lessons around money, the emotional side, not just the technical side.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: Like that can and should be done like as early as possible.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Early as possible.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, because kids they watch, they're watching.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, even our kids, they will ask.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: They're middle school now, too, middle schoolers.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Like they know well enough to know and ask questions around like affordability.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: Can we do that?
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Do we have the money to do that?
24:01
SPEAKER_01: I just think that when as parents we can model and be appropriately like transparent with them and talk about things more than just like, well, here's how investments work.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: I just think about like legacy, right?
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Like it just gives them the stories there that start to form, you know, like what legacy really is and means within the family system there.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I know you had another part to the story.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I jumped in there.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, that's great.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: I was just in New York City with my nephew for his 14th birthday.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: And I love him dearly, but he ate all of the hotel candy.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Dude, do you know how much that box of MMs is?
24:38
SPEAKER_00: And he said, No, it's a box of MMs.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: How much could it be?
24:41
SPEAKER_00: And like the way that Aunt Tory busted out financial education and meaning and all of this.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: And get them, Aunt Tori.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was like, so I think like it shows up, right?
24:53
SPEAKER_00: And that is actually a wealth identity question.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: And so then this is where another place where I think advisors are rightfully tiptoeing is that's financial parenting.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: And what you don't want to be doing is lecturing your clients on how they should financially parent, because that is no longer going to be your client, right?
25:11
SPEAKER_00: This stuff is really tricky.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: So there's all kinds of resources out there that you can share with your clients.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: I will share Jeff Savlov, if you work in this space, is a wonderful creator around really how to integrate young children into wealth.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, Jolene Godfrey, raising financially fit kids.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of resources out here that if your client is like, what should I do with chores or anything like that, you don't want to dispense that kind of advice because you dispense the wrong kind of advice and they're going to be frustrated.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: I will actually tell you philosophically at Tamarind, we don't educate under 18 because we do not want to get in the middle of financial parenting.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: So I think that some of this also comes into like scope and you know, knowing like your scope and your lane.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: And I love that term, like financial parenting.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: And I think the better approach is offering resources.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: Here are some great places.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: I even think it's appropriate and okay to say, hey, like I've had some clients say this, this is what's worked for other clients.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: Here are some resources you have to find like kind of your own way, but here are some places to start there.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a great, great tip there.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: So leaning into that other half of the question, which was how do advisors sort of navigate this?
26:27
SPEAKER_00: I think it's really important for your downstream clients as well as your current clients, just to acknowledge that some of this is very destabilizing and that it's okay if you want resources attached to this.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: Something I really advocate for if you are going to do any kind of identity-related education and all of this, a trust is identity-related education.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Financial statements is identity-related education, investments is identity, estate planning, tax.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Everything that we cover at Tamarind, right, is identity related.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: Because tax, for example, is all about gifting, it's all about philanthropy, it's all about long-term planning and legacy and values and all of these things.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: So I think you can sort of like step in it without realizing.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: But in any event, if you are going to do that kind of education, something I advocate for is pre-learning, because what you don't want to do is have your clients show up and they're trying to learn, and you're not an educator, and then you're trying to make a decision at the end.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: And so telling people exactly what they're going to show up for if you are going to educate and giving them some like clear objectives, right?
27:33
SPEAKER_00: Pretend you're an instructional designer for a day.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Here's what we're trying to accomplish, and like what do I need to provide them to get to that outcome can be really, really helpful as well.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Do you recommend any, like the pre-learning is kind of what's prompted me to think this here?
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you recommend any?
27:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to use the word assessment.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm using it in the sense of like assessing where a client or that next gen currently is on their level of like financial literacy, like wealth literacy.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm just, I've had some connections, some friends, you know, over the years.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think they know, like, I'll say diddly squat.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't I can't believe I'm saying that.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Like diddly squat, like about any of that.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: Like they're from just like a spectrum of learning, like they are starting out like at a much lower place.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: So do you recommend for advisors?
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Do we need to even start talking about basics?
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Like what is tax and like how is it, you know, calculated?
28:27
SPEAKER_01: And like tell me, I yeah, I see you nodding here.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: So jump in, tell me your thoughts on this.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you brought this up because I sort of mentioned this, right?
28:35
SPEAKER_00: I work with 40, 50, 60 year olds who are inheritors who do not know anything.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: The worst financial advice I ever got was from my mother who told me, you don't need to have investments.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: We have an operating company.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: I was 25 before I bumped into something that was like, these are the most important investing years of your life.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And so people can give bad advice.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: And so do not assume that your clients know anything.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: So, to answer the question around assessments, yes, one of the things that I like to use, you want it to be safe.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Psychological safety in this space is really important.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I haven't talked about that so much, but one of the things that I am very committed to is making sure that wealth education is safe.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: If you are in a family who are super high achievers and being, and I say this all the time, being the cousin who has to raise their hand and say, What?
29:32
SPEAKER_00: I didn't get that at all, you are gonna get left in the dust, right?
29:35
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna raise your hand.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna say, I didn't get that, especially in front of a subject matter expert, in front of the CFO, you're gonna be like, sorry, what's a balance sheet?
29:45
SPEAKER_00: What am I supposed to get from this?
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Especially when all your other cousins are nodding their head and they're like, Right, yeah.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Imagine that that situation where you have a cousin who is the CEO, and you and that cousin used to give each other noogies.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: Now you all have to own a business together, right?
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And so the stakes are really high.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: So I never assume that anyone knows anything.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: And I used to use an assessment that I called a knowledge assessment, and you rated your awareness of these questions from zero to three.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: And what I found was people either severely underrated or they severely overrated.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't super effective.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: So two other things that I use now, I have an interest assessment, and it's based on like what might be happening in your life right now.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Are you thinking about buying a home?
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Are you thinking about investments?
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Are you engaged in the investment committee?
30:35
SPEAKER_00: And then we can kind of tailor education to that.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I use is a financial confidence and behavior assessment.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: And it basically says, do you save any money?
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Do you have feelings about saving money?
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Do you invest?
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And so it sort of goes through what you're actually doing in your life.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: And what's really helpful around that is you can then again like behaviorally match what they're doing.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And even that isn't 100%, but you have sort of like discovery and a starting place to go from there.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: I'll share a story.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm working with an enterprising family, wonderful people, they're G5 cousins.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: I really, really, really like them a lot.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: And then saw this light bulb moment where in maybe session four or five, one of the participants says, I'm gonna be honest, I have been nodding along this entire time when my mom has been talking about working capital.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: And now I know what it means, and now I can engage.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: So this whole time, he got through my assessments, right?
31:31
SPEAKER_00: She got through all these things and she probably felt she knew what working capital was because she had heard it and she was aware of it.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: And then when it showed up like boots on the ground, this was like a transformational thing for her.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: She gets to show up in a totally new and different way.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: So, short story long, as we like to say here in New Jersey, there's a lot of assessments that I use.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: I try to avoid how much do you know and move more towards are you interested in this?
31:55
SPEAKER_00: And this is actually really helpful for adult learning as well.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: What are you interested in?
31:59
SPEAKER_00: What's showing up in your life?
32:00
SPEAKER_01: I like the interest approach as well, or even like life phase, like what's top of mind for you?
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Like I remember for myself, like when Clayton and I purchased our first home together.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: That was probably the first time really for me thinking about.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so I consider getting married a financial decision.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: So married Clayton, that was a good one, still continues to be a good one.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll see about tomorrow.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, or next year, but for now, yeah, it was a good one.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: But really, the purchase of our first home, like that was a big financial decision.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think that I mean, we were in our mid-20s when we did that.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: And that was such a learning experience for me in a very helpful way because I didn't know.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd heard the term mortgage, I'd heard the term like interest rates, I'd heard all of this, you know, some of the terminology, but I didn't really like know what it meant.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: And I certainly didn't know like what it meant for me in the personal sense.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I like the approach of like, what are you interested in?
32:57
SPEAKER_01: But also like, hey, what's going on in your life right now?
33:00
SPEAKER_01: That maybe we can use that to spark just conversation and education.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Because I think like from a psychological place, like we attach to that.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: And then there's like motivation and desire to continue like learning and being curious, like around that.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's fantastic that you guys do that and start in those places.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly right.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: And that's again, that's adult learning strategy.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: Adults learn with what's happening to them and they want to be able to apply it.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Or other ways they're not going to engage.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: So when I talk to a beneficiary about here's why you need to learn about what your trustee's job is and read your trust agreement, I have to give them a why.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Because if they're just learning it for the sake of learning it, it's not meaningful, right?
33:40
SPEAKER_00: But if you have improved dynamics with your trustee, when you make a distribution request or you understand your trust document, you're not going to feel uncomfortable and scared and anxious, right?
33:52
SPEAKER_00: You're going to have this improved relationship.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: That's what all of this is, right?
33:55
SPEAKER_00: We're just trying to navigate the financial space with a bit more awareness and comfort and reduced anxiety.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, absolutely.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: All right, Tori.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: Last question here.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Sadly.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: I hate when I get to this point.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: We're having fun.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: I know.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, for an advisor who's listening who maybe wants to start weaving like more intentional like family wealth education into their practice, what is maybe one or one or two shifts in how that they approach those conversations?
34:25
SPEAKER_01: I know we've talked about a few, but if there's any others, we'd love to hear.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: What are one or two shifts in the conversation in terms of how they approach it that would make a big difference for them?
34:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: I have sort of like what you should do and what you shouldn't do, and they're interrelated here.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: So if you want to offer education, have a really clear on-ramp for your clients and what you want to do.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: So if you generically say that you offer education, you're likely to have a lot of positive conversations.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: You are not going to build out this area of service, you're not going to build a new revenue stream, and you're not going to build your business.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, imagine that you say to your client, here's five things I educate around, right?
35:06
SPEAKER_00: And I have curriculum attached to them, I have activities attached to them.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: This is a real offering that I have.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Here's how long it takes, and here's your commitment.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: In our conversation today, I heard you say, I am interested in understanding this topic more.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Should we start there?
35:22
SPEAKER_00: So, like that dynamic, that's going to go way better than just saying, yeah, we educate.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I see on people's websites very frequently.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: And the advisors who come to me who want to white label tamarind, they're like, Well, my clients say they want education.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: So can I just white label you?
35:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, you certainly can.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to send you an invoice.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: But if you want this to be successful, you need to have some bones and structure and strategy intention related to it.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's that side.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: And here's what you absolutely should not do, which is do not say that you provide education and you have an education library when what you have is a cloud drive full of PowerPoint decks.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Your young clients do not want PowerPoint decks.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: And they specifically have actually said they hate this.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: So uh Northern Trust's recent rising engaging the rising gen report, it was like the number one thing that your downstream clients do not want.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: They do not want your stupid slide deck, respectfully.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: And like we're professionals, right?
36:20
SPEAKER_00: We love to sign up for a webinar, we'll do our lunch and learn, we're gonna get some nice nuggets and it's gonna be great.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: That is not how your clients want to be engaged with learning.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: So you have to go back to the drawing board and think about what you can really offer them and what you can do well.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: All of your advisors and everyone who's listening, they offer something that is fantastic.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: So just making sure that your educational approach aligns with that and that'll help you build your business.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: Those are fantastic pieces.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad that you mentioned the don't piece too.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's more important to know like what not to do than what to do, right?
36:53
SPEAKER_01: In terms of getting it right.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, Tori, if people who are listening right now and they're like, man, this Tory lady is so fantastic, and I'm really into like what she's talking about.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: Where can people find you?
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Where can they learn more about you and engage with you?
37:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: The best place to find me is on LinkedIn because I'm always posting some kind of thing.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: And whether that's responding to Ashley and uh what she's saying about water coming in your home or any number of other things.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: So that's the best place to find me.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: You can also learn more about Tamarin Learning if you're interested in educating your clients or having a resource that you can refer out to.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: Our assessments are actually also all under our resources tab as well.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: So if something I said sparked your interest, you can go there as well.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: We'll make sure that we include all of that in the show notes for people to find.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Tori, so much for coming on and sharing all of your wisdom and all of your insights here with us today.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: And thank you to all of you for listening, for allowing Tori and I into your ears and into your mind.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: If this conversation resonated with you, I, as would Tori, would love to keep the conversation going.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: You can find me on LinkedIn as well at Ashley Kwame, where I share weekly insights on the human side of planning.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: And if you'd like a little bit more of Beyond the Plan in your life, you can head over to our website, www.beondthefp.com and sign up for our monthly newsletter where we share strategies, where we share insights all around how to integrate the human side of planning into your form.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: But most importantly, make sure that you follow the show wherever you listen so that you never miss an episode like this one.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: As always, my friends, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
38:54
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39:00
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39:05
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39:31
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