Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 202. Better Evacuations, A2L Myths and the Modern Mindset Around Refrigeration with Jesse Stewart of NAVAC

Transcript

Episode 202. Better Evacuations, A2L Myths and the Modern Mindset Around Refrigeration with Jesse Stewart of NAVAC · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Jesse: It's really cool to see these guys that are taking the time to invest in themselves, because that's what me and you talk about the new school mindset. That is the guys who know that I will get out of this trade, what I put into it. So I'm going to invest time in myself to make sure that I am as good at my craft as I possibly can be.
• 0:01
  That is what this training thing is all about to me. But if I can make even 10 technicians across every state, 5 percent more efficient, that's still impacting that skill gap.
• 0:02
  Trevor: Welcome to the refrigeration mentor podcast. I'm your host Trevor Matthews as a former technician turned entrepreneur. My goal is to really help train you, educate you and mentor you in the commercial refrigeration industry.
• 0:03
  Each week, I'm going to have top guests from technicians. To manufacturers, to experts around the world to really help us grow and learn together by sharing their knowledge in commercial refrigeration, commercial HVAC. And not only on the technical side, but really the professional and the personal development side as well.
• 0:04
  I'm really excited that you're here. Now let's get a conversation going.
• 0:05
  Hey, I want to take a minute to talk about the upcoming refrigeration mentor learning programs. Every couple of months, we continue to roll out live instructor led sessions by subject matter experts on compressors, supermarket refrigeration, and CO2 refrigeration. We're really here to help you grow. Get to that next level.
• 0:06
  Head to the Refrigeration Mentor webpage, refrigerationmentor. com. Check out the events page. There's a compressor masterclass, there's a supermarket refrigeration program, and there's a CO2 program. There's also free trainings, free workshops. Really, check them out. See if this interests you. Read a little bit about it because we're really here to help you.
• 0:07
  These live sessions are for you to come and ask questions, to learn a little bit, to grow. We've trained thousands of technicians from technicians from three to four to five years in industry, all the way up from 20 to 30 years in industry, either get them to the next level or get them back on track, build that confidence, that knowledge and that skill set.
• 0:08
  We'd love to see you there. We'd love to have you now, let's get a conversation going this week. I've got a good friend of mine, Jesse Stewart from NAVAC. We did a podcast that is previous world couple podcasts actually. Um, when he, he was on your podcast once, which was really cool. And then, uh, now we're back.
• 0:09
  So lots of things going on in Jesse's world and I'm super excited to learn more. We seen each other back in Vegas, I think it was. A month ago now time goes real quick at the hangout and, uh, and get the conversations going, which I love. And we talked about getting on the podcast, uh, learn a little bit more about your journey.
• 0:10
  You came a long way since our last podcast, a lot of cool things going on in your life, which is awesome. And I'd love to get a little bit to know what's going on at, uh, NAVAC and what's going on with you, Jesse, how you doing brother?
• 0:11
  Jesse: Doing fine, man. Doing fine. It's always a pleasure to talk with you again, Trevor.
• 0:12
  I
• 0:13
  Trevor: love this. I love these conversations. We always have a lot of fun. We're always learning from each other because we're, we're educators. We're talkers. Why don't you tell me what us, what's been going on? Cause I've been seeing you at events, seeing you at HR. I seen you at the Las Vegas, uh, HVAC, uh, excellence event.
• 0:14
  So what's been going on with you?
• 0:15
  Jesse: Oh, man. So Like, like you said, I actually changed positions from our last podcast episode. And so I've been over here at NAVAC and here I'm the national training manager. And so what that entails is essentially anything training related with our products or more or less what I focus on is the best practices in the field that technicians should be following.
• 0:16
  That is my job to travel around to distributors, schools, contractors, anyone who. Has anything to do with NAVAC or just wants to invest some time in themselves. We're there to support them and show them the best and proper practices. So I've been all over the country this year. And it's been a fantastic trip here at NAVAC.
• 0:17
  I absolutely love it here. I work with Andrew Greaves. A lot of people know him, but, uh, I'm going to go ahead and say it since he's not here, my beard is better than Andrew's. I don't care what anybody says, but yeah, so no, man, I've been really enjoying myself because I get to do what Ben, you talk about, we love to do.
• 0:18
  We love to help the industry. We love to see technicians becoming more efficient. And more advanced at their trade and their craft. And so here I get to do that all over the country.
• 0:19
  Trevor: That's amazing. And that's a lot of fun. I seen you at the shows showing people how to pull a proper evacuation, the proper tools to use, how to properly set it up, and I can see you're really excited to do it, and that's a true passion, um, of what you do and which is awesome to see what has been, um, What has been some of the big highlights?
• 0:20
  So you've been there eight, nine months now, you're the national training manager, you've been training thousands of people going all over the place. What are some of the cool things you've been seeing? The people, cool people you've been meeting?
• 0:21
  Jesse: Well, so actually the last trip that I just got back from was Washington.
• 0:22
  And I'm just going to say this. This isn't business related. That was the most beautiful state I've ever been to. I mean, it's gorgeous. And the people up there are friendly as can be.
• 0:23
  Trevor: Yeah. It's always nice to travel to different places and enjoy your time while you're there.
• 0:24
  Jesse: Oh yeah. Well that, and like some of the biggest highlights was so at AHR.
• 0:25
  We, uh, we had the race to 500 microns, and I don't know if anyone here has ever tried to do this, but so I was essentially an announcer for two people that were trying to perform an evacuation in the quickest manner possible. I put the emphasis on quickest manner because technicians found the gray area and the rules and some crazy stuff started happening, but it was still a good time.
• 0:26
  Trevor: Yeah.
• 0:27
  Jesse: Uh, but so I don't know if you've ever had to try to make evacuation entertaining. It might not be the easiest thing you've ever heard of.
• 0:28
  Trevor: I heard it was a good time too.
• 0:29
  Jesse: Oh yeah, no, I did that. And like I said, I didn't have a voice for the next week. Uh, and then immediately after that, I went to, I think I went to Florida.
• 0:30
  I've been to Rhode Island, Connecticut, California. Um, I'm set to go to Oklahoma City next week, and I think I'm booked all the way up until June, which is really unheard of for people doing what me and you do, because typically, you know, in the summer months, the guys get busy and there's not a lot of training getting done.
• 0:31
  So the fact that my training and NABAC's training, I should say, is still being sought after in the summer months is kind of speaking volume.
• 0:32
  Trevor: I love that. I love and keep it up all through the summer. Like I am training all through the summer. Like, I think it's just a, a mindset thing where, Oh, we're too busy for training.
• 0:33
  No, you're never too busy for training. Yeah. And I really, I'm pushing contractors. Now this is the best time before the summer comes. Get in, get them in the training. So when they see the problem out in the middle of the summer, they can fix it properly instead of waiting to law, let's wait till September.
• 0:34
  I hear this all the time. We're going to wait until the September when it's lower. The problems happen in the summer. They don't happen in October, November.
• 0:35
  Jesse: Well, it stays fresh in your mind too. You just went to that training. So you just talked about this, you know what you need to do. And it is, like you said, it's kind of that old school mindset, which there's a whole topic on itself there, but we can talk about that here later.
• 0:36
  But it's really cool to see these guys that are taking the time to invest in themselves, because that's what me and you talk about the new school mindset. That is the guys who know that I will get out of this trade what I put into it. So I'm going to invest time in myself to make sure that I am as good at my craft as I possibly can be.
• 0:37
  That is what this training thing is all about to me. I can't fill the skill gap by making people, you know, come work HVAC. I can't do that. But if I can make even 10 technicians across every state, 5 percent more efficient. That's still impacting that skill gap.
• 0:38
  Trevor: It definitely is. And just, just keep working on it.
• 0:39
  You're consistent, you're persistent, trying to share that. And there's lots of people out there who want to, to get better. They just don't know where to turn a lot of times. And I just did a podcast earlier today. And we kind of talked, uh, talked about that, like, uh, this morning, actually morning coffees with Trevor and we talked to somebody wrote in from yesterday saying that, well, they don't want to train me at my company and they don't believe in training and they don't want to pay for training.
• 0:40
  Okay. So just because they don't want to pay for your training doesn't mean you should not go to training and pay yourself. Like that's what I told them. Like, why aren't you paying for it? If you think training is so important, why are you waiting for someone else to choose your destiny?
• 0:41
  Jesse: You, you cannot sit back and rely on someone else to give you the keys to the kingdom.
• 0:42
  We all play a game no one wrote the rules to. You decide your fate. You create your own path. Because the prime example of all this is, I mean, so you just said it. They don't want to pay for my training. Okay. Well, maybe you don't have the money to pay for your train. We'll look at what we're doing right here, right now.
• 0:43
  There are podcasts, there are YouTube videos. There's all kinds of resources out there available. There are books that you can either rent from a library, or I'm sure an old technician that has not opened it in 30 years will probably be willing to let you borrow it. There's no reason not to invest in yourself.
• 0:44
  And even just listening to something like this podcast, when you're driving from job site to job site, can be informative and help you become better at your trade. And a big part of our trade, too, and Trevor, I'm sure you'll agree with me on this, is it's not just You know, your physical capabilities, that's a big part of it, but it's also your mental mindset, what you just said, that guy saying, Oh, they don't invest in me, you can't have that attitude, make your own path.
• 0:45
  Trevor: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that, and that's why so many people keep coming to refrigeration mentor training programs is just because it's not all about the technical skills is about changing the way you think, the way you do stuff. And that's how you get better. Just like pulling an evacuation.
• 0:46
  You might've been pulling it the way you did for the last 20 years. It doesn't mean there's not a better way. That's just the way you're doing it. And don't be like, well, no, my way is right way. Trying to justify your action and be like, okay, why is it better? Try to understand how is it better? How can you pull an evacuation in 10 minutes and take me two hours?
• 0:47
  Jesse: Yeah. Well, and I mean, that goes into like that old school versus new school mindset, man. And so in order to understand like where that comes from, you gotta look at, look at our trade, that skill gap that I have been preaching on ever since I've been in this industry is you've got guys that are getting ready to retire and guys that are coming in that middle ground.
• 0:48
  There's very few of us. There's very few of us in that. Now, what happens a lot of times with that though, is those old bad habits, like you just said, pulling an evacuation the wrong way. Carry over to the next generation, because the next generation shadows the current generation. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the way that some guys do it.
• 0:49
  Well, maybe I am. But, but what I am saying is, the trade evolves. The technology evolves. We have to evolve with it. The processes evolve for a reason. It's to make us more efficient at our jobs. Most of the work that you're going to come across are bid jobs, or you may have a select time frame or select budget that you might have to finish that job in.
• 0:50
  Wouldn't you prefer to have all of the skills and tools and resources available at your disposal to increase your efficiency? To make sure that you do meet that quota or beat it? Which is really good for you because then that can at the end of the year when you go to your boss and you ask For that raise that kind of warrants that conversation
• 0:51
  Trevor: And actually it shouldn't be at the end of the year.
• 0:52
  You should be talking about the raise at the start of the year This is what I keep hearing. What's your plan build that plan? So when you do go there at the end of the year and you hit all those numbers And you hit everything that you talked about to get that raise then you go proof not just going in and and being like, okay Well, where's my raise?
• 0:53
  You plan out that race, just like your education, plan it out. Nobody's gonna, nobody's going to do it for you. And nobody's going to tell you, these are all the courses you should be taking. Some people are out there, but 90 percent of them, you don't have that option. You don't have someone doing, they're putting out their own fires.
• 0:54
  They get their own life. You look, look out for your education. And, uh, it's so important to do that. Take the time to do that. So while we're on the topic. Of evacuation. What are a few tips that people should take to do a better evacuation? Cause this is, this is something that I, it comes up in my program all the time and I did it wrong for years.
• 0:55
  Cause I did, I actually can pull a better vacuum now than I could when I was in the field because I know how to do it right now.
• 0:56
  Jesse: Well, so I'm going to go ahead and hit you with the first one and I preach this in my trainings all across the country. So everyone that's listening, if you've been doing this for a while, just go ahead and brace for impact.
• 0:57
  I'm going to say it, ditch your manifold. Stop pulling evacuations through a manifold. It was not designed for that. It is nothing but a restriction and also potential leaks if you're still using the service hoses that come with the manifold. Those are permeable hoses. They are designed to, in the event of a high pressure situation, to foam and release that pressure safely.
• 0:58
  If they can release pressure, that means that they can also bring something in. In addition to that, make sure that you're pulling your valve cores. Guys, it takes like two seconds. And if you look at the savings that you get in time versus the amount of time that it takes to do it, there's no reason not to do it.
• 0:59
  And if you're unaware of what a valve core is or how to use it, or anything that I'm about to go over, you can always reach out to us here at NAVAC. You can look on our website. We tell you everything you need to know. And it's not just about our product. It's about the process. We want you to be better.
• 1:00
  So when I talk about the valve core, here's a fun fact for you. If you leave that valve core in and you pull an evacuation, let's say you pulled from both ports. The best you're going to get is 0. 5 CFM per port. So regardless of your vacuum rig, the best that you're going to pull through those ports is one CFM total, where if you take it out, you can get four.
• 1:01
  or higher per port. So then you take an eight CFM vacuum pump, you take a large diameter hose that is vacuum rated, not permeable. You can actually maximize your vacuum rig. Now, leading into that, bigger in vacuum pumps isn't always better. In fact, most residential guys that are out there, our 7 CFM, even our battery operator, our CFM, will handle almost everything that you would need to do.
• 1:02
  But, you've got that, and then you've also got the hoses, like I just said. Low to no permeation. They need to be vacuum rated. You need to use a dedicated set of hoses for evacuation. You cannot do it through your service hoses that you carry on your manifold every day. They're not designed for, and it's just going to take a lot longer.
• 1:03
  Prime example, right behind me over my shoulder is a tank that I carry with me. Trevor, you got to see this when you were in Vegas, that tank represents a five ton system when you go off of the total volume per cubic foot. And I can tell you from doing it thousands of times now. Um, If you pull it through your service hoses, it's going to take over an hour to get 500 microns.
• 1:04
  That's with the cores in, service hoses, no vacuum rated hoses, that's how long it takes. If you even use a four port manifold with a vacuum hose, it's going to take 35 minutes. If you take the cores out, you ditch the manifold, and you use a vacuum rated hose, a large diameter, it takes two minutes and under.
• 1:05
  Now, quick disclaimer on that. I'm not telling you that you're going to be able to pull every single five ton system down in two minutes. I'm not telling you that at all. What I am telling you is that it's all about what we as technicians can control. We can't control the size of the unit. We can't control ambient conditions.
• 1:06
  We can't control the size of the piping. But, you can control cores, hoses, and hose size. You can control your vacuum, rig, and more importantly, You can control how you think about this kind of an approach because like we said before, what worked 20 years ago may not be the best thing moving forward. I can't stress that enough.
• 1:07
  And one last thing for me to touch on that, Trevor, sorry I've rambled for a bit here. Oil integrity is a big one. Vacuum pump oil integrity because here's the thing, for years we always just used the old school way of doing it. You look for the milky discoloration. It was time to change your vacuum pump oil.
• 1:08
  You need to be able to perform a performance check on your vacuum pump to ensure that it can achieve the micron level rated from the manufacturer. And in order for you to be able to do that, you need to know the X factor. In our case, ours was printed on the side of the pump. We made it really easy for you.
• 1:09
  But regardless of if you follow everything else that I have said to do in this entire process, if your vacuum pump oil is compromised. You're not going to get anywhere doesn't matter if you got the best rig in the business It's still not going to get you anywhere
• 1:10
  Trevor: Okay, so you just said that on the side of the pump is going to give you some information on there What would be the quickest way if you don't have it on a pump?
• 1:11
  Do you just take your micron gauge put it just on your pump and do a test and that could tell you if the oil Is bad or not?
• 1:12
  Jesse: Yeah, so that would be the performance check. But the only catch to that is, is you need to know that X factor. Like what does that manufacturer say that's rated to? And this is where it becomes an issue because either a, the technician is going to have to try and dig through his van and find a manual that I almost guarantee he threw away.
• 1:13
  B, you're going to have to call the manufacturer and you may not get ahold of somebody or C. You're going to have to look it up on Google and I got bad news for you again, brace for impact. Not everything you read on the internet is accurate.
• 1:14
  Trevor: So if I just say it pulls down to you regularly, your pump pulls down to 25 whatever it is, you know, 50 microns.
• 1:15
  And if you have bad oil, would that be like a, it would only pull to a hundred microns or 200 microns or not even that close? Or can you give an idea? Cause I know you need this X factor and I've never. Even talked about this before. So thank you for your, you're teaching me something right now is if you don't have that X factor, what do you do?
• 1:16
  Do you, should you change oil? Cause I think there's too many people changing oil too much as well, because some people say, I just change it after every, every pull. And I don't know if that is right either, because we've got to talk about environmental factors, you know, re oil, going through oil like that.
• 1:17
  It's not good for our environment either. You got to just, and as well, you better be disposing of it properly. What's your comment on that? Should it be changed every time you do a pull or should you do this efficiency test?
• 1:18
  Jesse: You should always try to do your performance check. And while it's a given that let's say that for some unknown reason, and this is just a theory, let's say that the manufacturer didn't specify what that pump should pull down to.
• 1:19
  So the best recommendation that I could give you is that the second that you got that pump brand new pump, you need to perform a performance check. Hook your micron gauge up to it, give it, we say, three minutes for our performance check, and that's being insanely generous. We can normally tell in under a minute.
• 1:20
  If you run that thing for three minutes, benchmark that micron reading. So, as an example for ours, right? So, 15 microns on our 7 CFM, that's what it's rated for. I know that if I can hit 15 microns in under three minutes, again, being very generous, that my oil is good to go. I don't need to change it. If I can't, if I can't even get close, oil's compromised.
• 1:21
  And then the last case scenario is, uh, you turn your pump on and nothing happens, mechanical failure. Well, then you've got a much bigger problem on your hands. However, personal little pun here. I would recommend that you strongly check to make sure that your extension cord is plugged in before you call tech support.
• 1:22
  Trevor: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And use the right size because I've seen it with what a light size of. Extension cord, it's not rated for the, that amount of power. And, and you've got 150 or 200 foot cord, you're running across the roof and all of a sudden the pump don't start. Yeah,
• 1:23
  Jesse: that's another, that's another voltage
• 1:24
  Trevor: drop through the core.
• 1:25
  So, uh, learn from experience. Okay. So, so that's a good way to test it. Does it, this is a good question. So if that pump pulls down to 15 microns, does it matter how big the system is? You just have to let it run longer. It should still pull down the 15 microns. Or is there a certain size limit? Because you said earlier, some people are using eight CFM pumps on, you know, a one ton system that doesn't make, you don't need to use that big of a ton.
• 1:26
  Is there like some sort of rating on the type of CFM you should be using for that application?
• 1:27
  Jesse: I'm sure somewhere that there is, I'm sure in your manufacturer's literature, it would tell you what they recommend, but I mean, just prime example, like the 15 CFM, that's just for our pumps. You shouldn't be trying to get that low, in my opinion.
• 1:28
  50 microns. Any system, uh, 500 industry standard. Other than that, follow your manufacturer's guidelines because a lot of manufacturers now, 500 is not even the standard. There are some that go as low as 250.
• 1:29
  Trevor: Most of the CO2 is below 200. I tell everyone 250 below that every time. Yeah, and they used to do it back in the 50s.
• 1:30
  I sat in with Jim Bergman. He's the guy who really taught me about evacuation and when I was sitting there is exactly what you you just said earlier is that you can't be pulling through the gauges or pulling through the cores and if you are You could be using a six or seven CFM pump. And I think he said, you're pulling 0.
• 1:31
  29 inches of a VAC. That's what you're pulling through it. Like you're nothing. So you're using all this pump, but you're not getting anything out of it. Kind of your example, like if you're pulling through the hoses and it's taking you an hour for that fine, it's time you, instead of two minutes.
• 1:32
  Jesse: Oh, yeah, and I'll tell you a common thought that I get a lot of times during these trainings, and it's a valid thought to have, but I had to approach this to, again, this is why I love teaching, because not everybody learns the same, and then you'll get hit with some of these questions that you're like, okay, I need to find a way to answer that.
• 1:33
  Uh, one guy during a training said, well, okay, so we can only pull as fast as our smallest connection. Which is our quarter inch port. So do hoses, pump size, and manifolds and all this other stuff. Quarter movers, do they really matter? And the answer to that is 100 percent yes, it does matter because I'm not going to go into my whole spiel about it, but I wanted you to look at it in the sense of, I use the toll booth analogy.
• 1:34
  So let's say that you have an eight lane highway and you're approaching toll booth. So in this instance, the cars represent CFM and the toll booth itself only has one toll open. So one lane open, and this represents that quarter inch port. Well, maintaining that same logic that we can only pull as fast as our smallest connection that would be the equivalent of saying, okay, well, we're going to slow down and go through this one lane.
• 1:35
  However, after that 1 lane, we're just going to keep 1 lane of traffic for the rest of our 50 mile trip, or in this case, 5 feet of hose, which is not practical. It would never happen. All matter is lazy, right? So, whenever it's given the opportunity to expand and take up more room, that is least resistant.
• 1:36
  It's not going to just stay at that quarter inch port. Long story short, following the KISS method, it goes into a simpler conversation of diameter over distance. You can have a short restriction for a small period of time, where you can have a bunch of restrictions for the entire period of time, which will in turn, give you a bigger headache.
• 1:37
  Trevor: I think where the confusion came in, especially for me is like when the four port manifolds that came out. And then on the, I think with the yellow jacket ones, they'd have the quarter and the three eight. So it looks perfectly to pull through your manifold set, you know what I mean? Like it's idea. So you look at, well, this three eight comes off of one pour as this quarter comes off, fits perfectly on the vac pump, but really should not even be using the manifold set at all.
• 1:38
  Anyway, you know, so it comes back to training and education. That's all it is. Right. Understanding it. Because when I started seeing, watching videos and talking with technicians, like that used to take me hours to pull down a case or a lineup or something. And then now I see them pulling them down in like 20 minutes.
• 1:39
  I'm just like, where was that? I, how come no one taught me that? Cause I'm just there, but I got other work done at the time, but it could have been job could have been so much more efficient. Just knowing that tip,
• 1:40
  Jesse: and that's what it comes down to, too, because here's the thing. Evacuation has earned a reputation in our industry for taking the longest amount of time.
• 1:41
  And that's because what worked 20 years ago doesn't work now. Here's the biggest problem with this. Let's say in my neck of the woods before I got into the training side, I was a commercial service technician. Well, so it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for a technician to, you know, be pulling an evacuation.
• 1:42
  Then it takes a long time. These are larger units, but let's say they weren't doing it the proper way. Well, so this is a scenario that could happen and this is residential or commercial. So it's taken a long time. Well, the technician, while that's running, yes, they should be doing something else, but however, most of the time they're playing on this.
• 1:43
  And then the customer would walk up and see that the technician is on their phone. And then the customer gets upset. The technician's response is it takes what it takes. That is that old school mentality that I cannot stand. Because now you've got an upset customer, and then the upset customer is going to call your boss, and then your boss is going to call, it's just a deadly circle, man.
• 1:44
  It just goes full circle. And it goes back into, like you said, proper practice and procedure. Pay attention to what the trade is pushing nowadays. There's a reason that we keep changing things. It's not to make your life harder. If anything, it's to make your life easier and to keep you more informed and keep you honed in on your trade.
• 1:45
  So just don't be such a negative Nancy about all the changes.
• 1:46
  Trevor: I have, I have some questions that maybe you can answer. You cannot answer. I had someone in one of my courses, uh, last week or a couple of weeks ago. And somebody asked me this before, and I can't remember the response. Can you put too much, too many vac pumps on a system to try to evacuate it?
• 1:47
  That's one question. Like, so can I put, will it pull down faster if I put three, seven CFM, do all the things that you're saying here? Faster than just using one, that's one question. And the other one is, Will it damage the oil the lower the microns you pull on POE oil? And that may be a question for the POE oil manufacturer, but those are two questions.
• 1:48
  Can you answer either one of those?
• 1:49
  Jesse: So I can take a crack at them. Uh, the one where you said use two vacuum pumps. Remember how I said that, uh, some technicians were doing some crazy stuff at AHR, well, that was kind of what I was getting at because we didn't put it in the rules that they couldn't. And the goal was to get as fast as they could, but however you need to be aware, there is a point of diminishing returns on that.
• 1:50
  There is a point where your vacuum pumps will actually start to fight against each other. So there's no practical or. Even technical reason to ever run more than one vacuum pump, regardless of the size of system, in my opinion. And I'm pretty sure a lot of other industry professionals will agree with me on that.
• 1:51
  I can't think of a single reason why you would need to hook up two of them. Now it's a given was VRB all these other larger systems that are coming out. There may be some things that come on down the line, not right now, down the line. that this could become a topic of conversation later on, but as of today, in April 2024, no, I can't see a reason to use two vacuum pumps on a single system.
• 1:52
  Trevor: Cause we, well, I'm working more in a commercial refrigeration. So there's thousands of feet of pipe, right? Big four inch, sometimes three inch pipe. So you would recommend go to a higher CFM pump versus like smaller ones, right?
• 1:53
  Jesse: Yes. I would recommend go to a higher CFM pump. Use large diameter hoses, use valve core remover tools.
• 1:54
  Take your cores out again, no manifold. And if need be, you can pull from both sides of the system without a manifold. You can do that with a Y fitting like we sell here. There's nothing that says that you can't, but for most of the applications, even in the commercial world, not the refrigeration, but the commercial service technician, large diameter hoses and a large CFM pump will take care of everything you need.
• 1:55
  Trevor: Awesome. Yeah. And that makes sense. Uh, you know, cause I was just down on a site in Georgia and there was a big industrial plant and we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of feet, six inch. Four inch pipes all through out to the evaporators, to the gas coolers and stuff. And when I got there, I think they were using a 15 horsepower pump.
• 1:56
  Uh, but when I got there, um, It was 15 microns or at one point it got to 15 microns, a system that thick, like that's, that's solid. Yeah. And that's what we, that's, that's a tight system. Cause a lot of the issues out in the field are, are us in our installation. Like that's a lot of the problems that we have or people going and putting gauges on putting contaminant in systems.
• 1:57
  That's why you never see your fridge at home really ever having a refrigerant problem. You know what I mean? Contamination issue. That's the unheard of in there, but in our. Larger systems there. It's just consistent.
• 1:58
  Jesse: Well, so you talk about the, uh, just like you said, contamination again, coming from a commercial service world.
• 1:59
  So again, large rooftops, chillers, boilers, things like that. It wasn't uncommon to hear of a guy who would just leave an evacuation pulling overnight. Okay. That wasn't uncommon. I did it. Now, here's the thing, while there are some situations that I'm sure will warrant that, there are some. We're talking like large Daikin Rebel units and telepacs.
• 2:00
  Yeah, these will take some time. I can see that. However, this is where I think that proper process needs to play a big role, because if you are not paying attention to your micron gauge. And let's say that you are trying to pull down, you're following the proper procedure. Well, you say, Oh, I'm just gonna leave it pull overnight.
• 2:01
  Well, what if you have a leak in that system? And what if it does have polyester oil and then it rains? What did you just do? You created a headache for yourself is what you did, because any moisture that it could We'll get sucked in to that system. And those of you who are listening, you should already know.
• 2:02
  And if you don't, I'll let you know. Polyester oil is insanely hydroscopic. When it comes into contact with water, it does not want to let go.
• 2:03
  Trevor: Yeah. And I totally agree with that. And it comes back to the proper practices. Um, I don't think it's a problem leaving it overnight. Cause I, there's some systems, they, they run the pump for seven days straight on the big systems.
• 2:04
  And that's not, I don't think that's the problem. Cause it's supposed to be before you put the pump on, you need to be a hundred percent sealed. Hold test, pressure test, all that stuff. So, uh, if it's not done right then, yeah, there's a lot of problems there, but I think doing the proper practices, doing those tips that you said right there, it's going to hand down, uh, shape up the speed of your, your time.
• 2:05
  If you're not doing those ways, you head to NAVAC website and check the way the steps, if you forget right now, you know what I mean? After what Jess said, go back, write this down. Get your notepad out right now and write it down when you stop, don't do it while you're driving, because it's very important to, to do the proper practice.
• 2:06
  And if someone at your company says, no, that you wait till it's in the green in your gauges, and that's good. Don't, don't listen to them. Okay. If that's the way they want to do it, don't go and argue with them that you're not going to change the way they do their practices, but you go out and buy yourself a micron gauge and you go put it on.
• 2:07
  And then you do it yourself, get the micron gauge, get the proper tools and just do it. Do it right because you do it right the first time you don't have to do it a second or third time.
• 2:08
  Jesse: No. And then the other part of that too is like I said, if you do have the guy who is still doing it the old school way and you want to try it the new school way, which is the proper way, then whenever you do do it and you know, you have been quicker at him, let's say that you've only got a year in this industry and the gentleman on the other side may have 25 to 30 on you, but you just performed the same job function that that gentleman is doing.
• 2:09
  And a quarter of the time, a half, that's going to speak volume to that person. So while I'm saying you're not going to be able to convince everybody out there, some people seeing is believing, which is why we do the in person trainings with that tank, because I will show you the difference and you can show whoever you're working with difference as well.
• 2:10
  Trevor: Yeah, and it's important. And sometimes you need that. Like, uh, I've done enough of it to, to know and work with enough professionals, uh, that I, I believe it and then seeing it just proves it. And I've seen it enough times that like, there's so many videos up there watching on a measure quick and as it goes through and then it just.
• 2:11
  Times on the thing and it's just like, hands down, it's way better way to do it that way. Let's uh, let's change up the topic a little bit and let's talk about, cause there's a big thing going on with A2Ls, the fear with A2Ls. Uh, why don't we dive into a little bit of that, what you're seeing, what you're hearing out there for A2Ls.
• 2:12
  Jesse: Uh,
• 2:13
  Trevor: so
• 2:14
  Jesse: A2L has been the hottest topic in HVAC since the R22 to R14A transition. Which is no surprise, because if you've been in this industry long enough, you will see history repeat itself a few times. And so, essentially, those of you who are listening, if you aren't aware what the A2Ls are, the A2Ls are a new classification of refrigerant.
• 2:15
  And they have a lower flammability. And like you said, what do I hear from people when we talk about this? Well, it's obviously the, either the gasoline or water mindset. That's how they look at it. It's a lower flammability, not an explosive. And that's the simplest way that I can put it. Now I'm not saying throw safety by the wayside by any means don't do that.
• 2:16
  But I am saying invest in yourself, but I will put it to you like this. They did testing. On all of the classes of refrigerant. So you had A1, A2, A2L, and A3. A3 is actual propane. So that's your R290. That is a dangerous substance to be around. Everything we work around is dangerous, but. That one is the one that, you know, actually does explode.
• 2:17
  However, you need to understand that they had to create an entire new designation for this refrigerant. Because it wasn't high flammability, but it wasn't low to no flammability either. So it's a lower flammability limit. And interesting enough too, if you look at the studies when they did these studies in the apparatus, and all the apparatus was, was they took a glass vial, they introduced air and a concentrated amount of refrigerant, and had a spark.
• 2:18
  depending on how much flame went outside of the lines that determined its designation. Fun fact, any matter will burn if placed in the right conditions. And when I say that, it's because if you look at the A1 testing, you still see a flame. It's still caught on fire. And the reason that I bring this up is because that's the biggest fear I hear from technicians.
• 2:19
  They're like, I'm not going to work on that stuff. It explodes. It's dangerous. I think that what you're going to find is that this transition compared to the 410A and 22 transition will go a lot smoother. The pressures are almost identical. To what we're currently working on. And in addition to that, if you've been following proper practices and procedures, the entire time you've been in this industry, you're going to see that your day to day operations do not change that much.
• 2:20
  The only thing that you need to be aware of is that yes, this has a lower flammability rating and you need to be aware of the mitigation strategies. M1 and M2. But don't listen to everything that you're seeing in these Facebook groups and these memes where it's like HVAC techs wearing firefighter clothes.
• 2:21
  That is not going to be the norm. This isn't going to be that much of a change, and it's not going to be that difficult. Now, the upcoming question, which I don't know if you were going to lead into this, was a lot of guys worry about their tools. Like, am I going to have to get new tools in order to work on this refrigerant?
• 2:22
  Well, if you've been running with NAVAC stuff, uh, there's a good chances you might not have to, but you need to make sure that your tools are UL rated or A2L rated. And in some cases, A3. And there's a whole list of things that will determine if that tool is A2L rated or A3 rated and what determines those.
• 2:23
  And I'll let Trevor lead into a question with that so I don't just ramble for 15
• 2:24
  Trevor: minutes. No, it's beautiful. The big thing is to be safe out there. Like, I think it's a lot more, it's all about safety, but it's more hype than it needs to be because And since the 80s, they're using the R2 90 even before that in industrial plants.
• 2:25
  I've talked to friends because when this first started coming out, I'm like, do you ever hear of this propane? And my good buddy, Jim was like, I've been using that since the 80s in refrigeration. Yeah. The R2 90. And we're talking about thousands of hundreds of pounds, you know, 200 pounds, 300 pounds, a hundred kilogram systems.
• 2:26
  So you know, and now we're talking about, you know. Five grams or, you know, and outside my house, I got a barbecue and I got natural gas hooked up to our, sorry, propane. And I got natural gas coming to my house with pilot flames burning out, you know what I mean? In my house, you know, live flames. So I think the thing it's come back to safety.
• 2:27
  People have got hurt. People get hurt with HFC, HFOs, A2Ls, CO2, whatever refrigerant, people got hurt with all of them. At the end of the day, you gotta be safe, you gotta get the training so you understand it. My good friend, uh, buddy, uh, Jason Haley came on the podcast a few times. He's an industrial guy and he's the safety guy for his company.
• 2:28
  And he talks about safety all the time. It's important. It doesn't matter what you're working on. Like people, ammonia. Oh no, I would never work on that. That'll, that'll take everybody out. You know what I mean? But they've been working on it for 120 years. Is it dangerous? Yes. Driving your car is dangerous too.
• 2:29
  You know what I mean? So it's, it's how you use it, how you work around it, make sure you're being safe. And then with this, these A2Ls, it's for me, it's just another refrigerant. And
• 2:30
  Jesse: that's all it is.
• 2:31
  Trevor: So work safe around it and whatever it is and in whatever capacity and make sure that you, you fought, talk to the manufacturers, ask them about it.
• 2:32
  Learn a little bit more, go to NAVAC training. They're going to talk to you about this stuff. It's, it's important.
• 2:33
  Jesse: Yes, we actually, so we worked with the ESCO group to create an A2L course. And so that's one of the trainings that myself and Andrew go around giving is an A2L course. Now, the cool thing about that course is when I say we worked with the ESCO group, we worked with them so that we could actually use the course that we were teaching to allow the people who sat in that class to go and take their low GWP certification.
• 2:34
  And so that was one of the biggest things to us, is we wanted you guys to have the knowledge available to understand what these refrigerants are, what the mitigation strategies are, and what safety parameters you need to be aware of. What is going to change in your day to day operations? Again, not much.
• 2:35
  Trevor: Yeah. So, and it's important. You, you just, you got to educate yourself when it comes down to it, educate yourself. And I think this is just another stepping stone in the evolution of refrigeration. Uh, I seen, I've been doing lots of, uh, work on learning about, Refrigerants themselves and how they continue to evolve to where we're at now in natural refrigerant versus low GWP versus this versus that.
• 2:36
  And for me, my goal is to make sure technicians are safe out there, train them. It doesn't matter what they're working on. There I've been that in that situation where I have to work on a piece of equipment that I don't know anything about and I wish I was more prepared at those times and this is what it's all about here at Refrigeration Mentor is to help educate you on making sure that you're safe.
• 2:37
  So you're going home to your family at the end of the day or finishing that job safely and efficiently. That's what it is all about. We want to do that, do a good job. Highly recommend getting out to NAVAC and checking that and even checking that course out at the ESCO group. Check that out as well.
• 2:38
  They're good friends of mine as well here at Refrigeration Mentor. Final thoughts, Jesse, what do you think? Um, what are a few tips that you could give a technician out in the field who's listening to truck or just listen right now on a site, um, to, to be a better technician for the products that you provide, or just to be a better technician in the field because you were one too.
• 2:39
  Jesse: Well, my number one is, uh, read.
• 2:40
  Trevor: Yeah, for sure. And when I
• 2:41
  Jesse: say read, I'm not just referring to the manual. Again, Trevor preaches it and so do I. Invest the time in yourself. If you are, let's say you're just getting started in this industry and you're an apprentice. Okay, well, the tech you're working with may not be comfortable with, you know, just letting you dive straight in.
• 2:42
  I fully understand that. But instead of just sitting there on the roof and trying to watch over his shoulder, if you can't do something productive, and when I say productive, I mean, try to take something away from what he's doing. Grab that manual and just read through it. Learn the diagnostics. And more importantly than that, podcast, if you have spare time, if you're working out, you're cutting grass.
• 2:43
  Driving from job site to job site find a few podcasts for Trevor's refrigeration mentor podcast is a fantastic resource for everything and I'm not just talking about refrigerant. I don't work on refrigerators, never worked on rack systems. I'm a commercial HVAC technician and I was listening to him.
• 2:44
  Even though I never touched the equipment he worked on, but there's hundreds of resources out there for you guys to invest in yourself. And then if you do approach the point where you want to invest financially in yourself, again, there's plenty of resources out there. And the other part, if you find yourself wanting training, like let's say that you're in an area that you say you can't find training, talk to your local distributors.
• 2:45
  Typically, they'll reach out to people or say, Hey, I heard this guy, Trevor Matthews on a podcast. I'd like for him to come and maybe do a presentation. Or maybe you can say I heard about this big bearded hillbilly Jesse who teaches people on how to do their job. Either one works perfectly. And I'm sure myself or Trevor would be more than happy to come out and do a presentation.
• 2:46
  And that's the cool part about this too. And Trevor, you'll probably agree is like after the presentation is done. Hanging out with those guys and then coming up and talking saying, man, I really didn't know this. That's the biggest advice I can give you. Don't be scared to invest in yourself. Don't be scared to go take a class.
• 2:47
  I'll keep my hands down because I know what happens. I guess my biggest one is don't be afraid to mess up because if you learn something from it, that makes you better. If you learn nothing from it, then yes, you should be afraid to mess up.
• 2:48
  Trevor: Yeah, no, I love that. And I think it's important. I did a call yesterday and that's what I told one of the person.
• 2:49
  To do they mentioned to me, like, I can't find a mentor. This is a small company. I don't have many people. There's no one there to really mentor me. I'm like, do something different. Go to the wholesale or sit and, you know, spend some time and watching who's coming in and buying stuff. Talk to the staff.
• 2:50
  They know, they know all the good technicians that are, what stops you from going to get mentored from a technician from a different company? You know what I mean? Why does that, why would that matter? You you're at that company that you're working on because you like the job, you know what I mean? And you're there for a reason.
• 2:51
  You want to get better. That company may not be big enough to support your, uh, mentor for you. Go to the wholesale, go to the supply house, ask them a question. Who who's a really good technician in this area. Take them out to lunch, pay for it out of your pocket. Take them out for, for dinner might cost you 50 or a hundred dollars, but with that knowledge that you get from them will lead to your growth.
• 2:52
  Jesse: And that's a big thing too, guys. You can make money. You can get money back. If someone teaches you something, you've got that forever. That doesn't go anywhere. And I'll, I'll leave you with a famous, uh, quote that I think I've told Trevor at least a thousand times now. This does not apply to safety. Full disclaimer before I say it.
• 2:53
  Discomfort causes growth. If you are uncomfortable, you are probably in the right situation. My biggest thing that I could ever tell anybody is whenever I first started teaching, when I first started presenting in front of large groups of people, I did it scared. I always did it scared. I was uncomfortable.
• 2:54
  I was nervous, but I did it enough to the point where it became second nature. So that goes into find yourself in a room where you are the dumbest person in that room. And if you stick around long enough, eventually you're not the dumbest person in that room. Time to find another room.
• 2:55
  Trevor: I like that. How can people get ahold of you, Jesse, get ahold of your organization, find out more about what you guys do?
• 2:56
  Jesse: Well, so you can email me and my team directly at training at NAVACglobal. com. And you can send me a general inquiry. You can send me, Hey, we want to Talk about training requests, or you can just ask me any kind of question that you can come across. I don't care if you've been in the field 50 years or if you've been in set field five days, I will always take the time out of my day to help you out.
• 2:57
  And I, you'd be surprised at the number of phone calls that someone will send me an email. I'll say, dude, give me your phone number. I'll call you. I'll help you out with this. NABAC wants to help the industry as a whole, and Jesse definitely wants to help the industry as a whole. So feel free to reach out to me directly at any time.
• 2:58
  Trevor: I love that, Jesse. Thank you so much for taking the time to come hang out with us at the refrigeration mentor podcast. Definitely go check out their website, go check out. Jesse, email them. These are people that want to help you, who want you to get better, to grow, to really get you to the next level in your career.
• 2:59
  Love it, Jesse. Thanks for hanging out and I'll see you all at the next Refrigeration Mentor Podcast. Thanks, man. Appreciate you, Trevor. I want to thank you so much for hanging out with me and the Refrigeration Mentor Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a comment. Let me know what were your key highlights.
• 3:00
  What you took away from myself, from my guest, as well as if you have not subscribed yet, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and subscribe. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Let your friends know that there are people who care, who want to share the refrigeration information to help them get to the next level in their career.
• 3:01
  If you have not been to the refrigeration mentor website@refrigerationmentor.com, go check it out. There's a ton more guest podcasts I've been on as well as the event page. Check out the events page because there's a lot more free trainings, as well as paid training to really help you grow your knowledge base.
• 3:02
  Super excited. Can't wait to see at the next Refrigeration Enter podcast, let's get a conversation going.