Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Dr. Niki Vincent

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What I've Learnt - Dr. Niki Vincent · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:01
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• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: She's responsible for overseeing the implementation of the Gender Equality Act and private role in promoting gender equality in the Victorian community and workplaces.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Gender wealth experience is gender equality as includes service 16 to 2020.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nikki is an active assessment of time for kids, a response foster care organization, and sits on the board of Intouch Multicultural Centre Against Family Violence.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if that doesn't keep her busy enough, Nikki is a mother of four adult children.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: A full-time foster parent has two young adult stepchildren and ten grandchildren.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So Nikki, welcome to the What I've Loped podcast.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're so thrilled to have you on board.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much, Deborah.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's lovely to be with you.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I was reading something interesting this week.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, speaking at Carne Film Festival this week, actress Andy McDowell reflected, I've been very fortunate to work with quite a few female directors, including Angelica Houston and Diane Keaton, just to name a few.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: But that is actually unusual.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: We just don't have the numbers.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: They keep saying we have a lot of women here, but we have five female directors out of 21.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And until we have a ratio that is more balanced, we're really struggling.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So my question to you is is this a reflection of the gender lens movement in general?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And or do you think we really are seeing change and traction?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because clearly, obviously in the arts they're reasonably progressive.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought that was an interesting when I was reading that quote.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it's so true.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So so many areas where we feel we're making progress, but I'd be interested in your perspective of whether you think we really are.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, I well, yes, we are making progress, but it's incredibly slow progress.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, I think um the World Economic Forum actually put out a figure recently which said that at the rate that we're going, it's going to take 135.6 years to close the gender gap worldwide.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, I I I'm not prepared to wait that long.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, it is not.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Me neither.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, really, that is really confronting, isn't it, when you're seeing us, yeah.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, there's so much um that's at play here.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: You you know, when we um the this the stereotyping about what what girls do and what boys do starts from almost birth, even before birth, you know, as um a lot of people are wanting to know whether they're having a boy or girl when they start to decorate the room and buy the toys and those sorts of things for whichever gender they're having.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, even if that doesn't happen, by the time kids go to you know, kindergarten or or school, there are those gender stereotypes and gender norms are already at play and they influence us in ways that are very unconscious but it but are incredible every day.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a lot to deal with.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, and the work and all of that then plays out in the kinds of jobs that people select or are selected for, and the you know, not just the people themselves choosing uh based on gender stereotypes, but how people picking people for those jobs when people step outside of those gender stereotypes, they're they're disadvantaged.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: There are all sorts of biases and uh and other things that are at play to influence those outcomes.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a complex mix, but it is it and all of that means, because there are so many of those uh those complexities that influence that journey, that it that it's gonna be, it's it's slow.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: And without intervention, without real intervention to deal uh with these things, we're not gonna see that change happening very quickly at all, hence the 135.6 years that the World Economic Forum suggested.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Which is really quite very very disturbing in the sense that really that's after there's been a very big global movement to put gender lens issues on the map.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you can only imagine how much further we were behind before that.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that movement is the appointment of yourself uh as the first gender equality commissioner in Victoria.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me a little bit about what that role involves and how you're part of this, I suppose, exciting but challenging journey to put gender issues on the map and to certainly hopefully rebalance what has been a long-standing issue.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the first uh gender equality public sector gender equality commissioner role.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's a brand new role, it's a brand new piece of legislation.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we're implementing the Gender Equality Act, the first of its kind in Australia.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and this is different from I used to be the um Equal Opportunity Commissioner for South Australia, where I oversaw the Equal Opportunity Act.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's different in that the Gender Equality Act applies to some 300 organisations.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: At this stage, it's in the public sector, so it's all of the public sector departments, but the broader public organizations as well, including all of local government and all the universities.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So some 420,000 people are covered, about 12% of the Victorian workforce.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it places a positive duty on those workplaces.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: They have to make reasonable and material progress towards gender equality and things like closing the gender pay gap, increasing the uptake of parental leave by men and caring leave by men, addressing things like biasing recruitment.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: So people are really appointed on the basis of merit, and preventing sexual harassment and dealing with sexual harassment appropriately.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: So all of these organizations, and the legislation's got real teeth as well, I should say.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Transparency and teeth.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: So each of these organizations has to report to me every four years, they have to conduct a comprehensive audit around all of those things that I mentioned: pay, inequality, composition of the workforce, access to leave and so forth, caring leave and flexible work and so on.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: So they audit their own organizations and tell us about the state and nature of gender equality or inequality in those organizations.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: They have to use that data to develop a comprehensive plan and they must make progress on that plan.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: All of that data and all of those plans are published, so they are completely transparent.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: And anyone, once we publish this first lot of data that's um came to us recently, anyone will be able to search our portal, our platform to look at each organization and how they compare to others.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other really important responsibility is that they must put a gender lens or do a gender impact assessment for every program, policy or service that they develop, the new policy program or service that has a direct and significant impact on the public.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So everything government does, everything local government does, everything the universities do that is about having a public impact, which is an awful lot of what they do, will from last year on the 31st of March last year and forever forward, while this legislation's in place, um, need a gender lens.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: It will require a gender lens, and it need will need to be adjusted if it's not impacting fairly and equally people of different genders.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: So and the other thing is they have to report on their progress to me every two years as well.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to say, so this is first of all, huge accountability, which has never ever been put on slate before at this level.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty monolithic and it's pretty broad spectrum.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it means that, as you say, obviously private sector is another discussion, but I'd be interested to talk to you about that as well.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, but this is this is a massive shift in the way that it's being what you're trying to do, I gather, is to entrench these into the actual everyday running of these organizations so that they be so it becomes almost just part of the system.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we have a research agenda as well.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we're keeping track of how that's all going and monitoring that progress and helping organizations to get better.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so although um I have these compliance powers as well, the transparency is one, and and then if organizations fail to comply with the legislation, including making reasonable material progress, I have to work with them.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't still don't make progress, I can issue compliance notice, I can right up to um obviously naming and shaming, but also right up to taking them to um VCAT, uh Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal to get an order.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: So the the legislation has teeth, and it's it's the strongest teeth that I've ever seen in any sort of uh equal opportunity or uh legislation of this kind.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's so it's not just yeah, theoretic.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's not theoretical.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is very, as you say, it's got teeth.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so are you meeting much resistance or or is it evident that because clearly this is as from for management for organizations, is it added cost?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is it which I assume there'd be elements of that which would impact?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: What is the sort of overall?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you're waiting to obviously publish data, etc., but what's the overall feedback so thus far?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: I expected a lot more resistance, Deborah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I you know I got um trolled a bit when my appointment was announced, and I thought, oh goodness, this is gonna be, you know, tough going.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: What sort of trolling?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: What just on Twitter, you know, about the announcement and that sort of thing, and an another, you know, highly paid person to public in government, that sort of thing.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, but you know, the sort of things that a lot of um of of women in particular in my um in roles um in senior roles get, I guess.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but and in actual fact, there's been so much excitement, and women have been incredibly excited by this in in the areas that we're talking about, in the sectors that we're talking about, because I think they see it as an opportunity to make a real impact that, you know, and so but uh but also a lot of men.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now I've I've hardly encountered any resistance at all.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then then I wonder, you know, the people I'm meeting, the people I'm talking to, they invite me to come and talk to them because they they they love this.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: They value what it is, yeah, what you're doing.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: So there might be pockets of resistance that I don't know about, and but they don't they're not coming to me and telling me uh so at this stage.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think that the tide's changed as uh you know, over the last couple of years, I've been in this job about 18 months now, and and I have seen that tide change over that time in terms of the interest and um the influence, I guess, of of the gender equality side of things um publicly.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it sort of is a movement.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was actually reading, I mean, there wouldn't be a week, let alone a day, where there wasn't a gender lens issue either in the paper or on social media.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's very prevalent, it's become very much at the forefront, and that in itself changes the dialogue and makes people sort of address it and go, what is that?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and what and how are we accountable?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're, I mean, as you say, you're working in the public sector, but it obviously that's going to also impact the private sector, who often work with the public sector.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they're they're being forced to look at what what's next for them, I suppose, if they haven't already implemented it.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the private, a lot of private people in the organizations in the private sector are already doing a lot of work in this regard.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: And we've had some private sector organizations say, well, we'll can we voluntarily report to you?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we'd like to be a part of this.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And although we're not set up for that at the moment, that is definitely something that we'd we'd look to do down the track.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um there is interest from the private sector.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of private sector organizations, the building and construction sector, for example, absolutely can't get enough staff, etc., etc.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, it's an it's an absolutely economic imperative for them to um to get women on board, to do the jobs, to, you know, to fill the jobs and so forth.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a lot of interest in that regard throughout the private sector and the not-for-profit sector as well.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: We've also got, as part of the legislation, there's the capacity um for the minister to develop um funding guidelines and procurement guidelines as well.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how we'll influence beyond the pri uh the public sector.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um but also the public sector's keeping an eye on this.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I get invited to um to speak to public sector organizations quite frequently about this because they they want to understand what's coming down the track and how might you mean do you mean private sector organizations?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you meant?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I meant to say private sector organizations.
• 14:14
  unknown: Yes.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the beauty because what you're talking about is an enculturation and a transformation and to some degree a revolution in a sense, that it, yes, as you say, it's very slow.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not fast because I know many people working in this area who've been working for a long time to try and put this on the map, and having someone like you in place certainly helps if you like harness.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a harnessing rather than it being just sort of there seems to be lots of people that were trying to do things, but it was like being on a treadmill.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm assuming that funding is key, education is critical.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how are these two factors being implemented at the grassroots level?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I noticed you had, you know, I looked at the gender equality action plan, which looks really interesting, which is is really a bit of a roadmap, isn't it?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah for sort of modernisers.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe talk to me a little bit about the education, the funding, and how in a sort of workplace environment it's implemented with that with the with the Jeep GAP.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we we were only just starting all of this.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: So um organizations submitted their data, their um audit data to me in December last year and their gender equality action plans, a lot of them came in on the 31st of March, but we've got another tranche coming in uh in June because we we gave another extension to organisations in the health sector, for example, that were really struggling due to COVID and wanted us for the extra time so they could do a really thorough job.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we're a little behind where we had hoped to be as a result of COVID and getting this stuff in late.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: But organisations um are uh we had almost 100% compliance with our audits, which is exciting.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that means that every organization knew what they had to do and did it.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um we hardly had to chase up any organisations.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I what I would say is we've got we've got a small team.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: There are, there are, I think there are about 15 or 16 of us, maybe a few more, uh in our teams.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't we don't have the resources to do a lot of work directly with organisations, but what we've actually done is developed training and delivered training through a panel of providers.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: We've developed all those guidance documents that you will have seen on our website.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, how to do a gender equality action plan, how to do uh an audit, how to how to do uh a gender impact assessment of your programs and policies and services.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got all of those tools in place.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: We've just got a little bit of extra funding in the last budget to work um more with organisations around gender impact assessments.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: But what we're looking at is look, we we look at compliance.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: So have have has the data and has their plan uh does it meet the obligations under the act?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: But then we're going to take a deep dive into a lot of these plans this first year and have a look at, you know, are they what kind of quality have we got here?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: What is what it what would indicate sort of better practice and how can we use that to help other organisations whose practice perhaps isn't so great to build up that capacity, to build up the quality.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then over time, we'll let we'll we'll get the next lot of data in next year, in um in October next year.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another perspective.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna see how far they've gone.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, what's interesting also is you know, separate to the organizational and infrastructure transitions that you're reflecting, you know, like this week, New South Wales is set to offer women who are undergoing IVF or accessing other assisted reproductive treatments a$2,000 rebate.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: The$80 million Australian First Package will benefit around 12,000 women who are currently using private fertility clinics.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: So this is like I I'm reading this going, this is extraordinary.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you think this is all part of a new approach to gender issues and saying that women in particular have, you know, when you I know people who have gone through IVF, and it's not only is it extremely, you know, intense to go through, it's expensive, it's time consuming.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, while this is, you know, a small amount, it's certainly a big amount better than nothing.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see this as part of an overall?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is a federal package, but is is it an overall change that is seeping down that that that is a reflection of what you're trying to achieve?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that's what it is.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we know um that the whole world um has been designed with a sort of default mail.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's this brilliant book.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've read it by Caroline Criado Perez called Invisible Women.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's sounds good.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have to put it on our our listeners, yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be making a note of that one, and so will I.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's fantastic.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it she has done incredibly careful research looking at you know, just the ways in which women, uh things that are designed in our daily lives, have just been designed for a default male.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, things like mobile phones not quite fitting women's hands properly so that they can, you know, when you try to take a photo, you can't get quite your your hands into the right place to take that easily.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: As we probably all experience it's much easier for a guy with a bigger hand to do that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's so true that.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, the size of bricks and the and the weight of cement bags, uh, the size of bricks are designed for men's hands.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: The weight of cement bags is designed for a man to be able to carry it, you know.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: So getting women into the construction sector, you've got a lot of other things that, you know, you've got a equipment and you know, all of that sort of thing, pet safety equipment, PP PPE, all of that's designed with with mail with males in mind for a default.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it actually can be quite dangerous for women using PPE that doesn't fit exactly.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it doesn't fit on their face, all that that's really yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Trip over, etc.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, um there's been cases where women haven't worn their bulletproof vests because they didn't they were designed for men's chests and not designed with breasts in mind, you know, and they've died as a result of that.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: But things like the ones, there's a few really stark examples in there, and the ones around medicine just drive me insane.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: All the drugs that were tested on men are never tested on women because women's had you know menstrual cycles that meant they were more volatile.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, that's that's what we that's what we have.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: We still need drugs, you know.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but things like crash test dummies, they're based on the 50th percentile male, and and that male is taller and heavier than the than the average woman.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that means that cars are designed by men, and in an accident, a woman is 47% more likely to be seriously injured than a man in a car crash, and three times more vulnerable to whiplash, and 17% more likely to die.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's literally that women are more likely to die because they haven't thought about designing them for women.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And when they do use it's inevitable.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really fascinating, but also this this is the sort of thing that needs to be talked about as you are you and I are doing now so much more frequently.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have heard that about the car designs, you know, and the crash test dummies not being, you know, orientated towards female bodies, and but the list that you've just outlined, I mean, not to mention all the sanitary products that were taxed, and you know, I mean, it's just it's almost like this endless list that you can't believe it's gone on for so long.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And here we are in this progressive phase of this, and you sort of go, it it really is mind blowing, isn't it?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally, totally.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Even things down to um the size of spoons.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know about you, but I always eat from a teaspoon often.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Know when I'm eating a dessert or something like that, because a dessert spoon is much too big for my mouth, and it never occurred to me until I read this book that actually they were designed for men's mouths, you know.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I really can't wait to read this book.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: This sounds really interesting.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was is is um so her research was obviously quite extensive, and I gather that this is quite a global, like a common global measure, is it?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: That this is across the board.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like there's any country that stands out to to have addressed this, which is why it's so important that you're doing what you're doing, because even though, as you say, there's a strong organizational focus, what you're talking about, this day-to-day stuff, yeah, is all part of it and changing the way that's the design, even I mean, the engineers and the way they see the world.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: But also, that's why it's so important to put this lens, uh this gender lens over everything that the organizations are doing, because bear in mind these are public organizations, a lot of what they do uh affects the public.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so, and it's public money that's going towards designing and developing those programs, policies, and services.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: So they must have a gender lens to be fair and equal, because if they don't, we might be inadvertently um perpetuating existing inequalities or worse developing inequalities in the programs, uh policies and services that we that we design, often without even thinking.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's not deliberately designed to benefit men, um, but it is often designed with a default male in mind.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um really what you're yeah, unconscious, and also what you're saying is let's change the template.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of like that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: We've had this template on all of these fronts for so long, and and it just needs to be completely renewed and recreated.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, we want to make this business as usual, you know, part of the business as usual of all of these organizations and show that it's possible and show how it can create that mind shift because once you start designing those things with a gender lens, you start seeing stuff all over the world that you never saw before.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: My my own partner had this experience after reading it.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: He said you just can't unsee it.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, after reading Invisible Woman.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: But what we hope is that that'll start to happen in all of these organizations, that they they design with a gender lens and then they then they see everything through a gender lens from that point on.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you think is the greatest challenge moving forward?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm assuming that, as you said, you're not getting a lot of resistance at the corporate level because there's accountability and compliance pressures, but but you're also getting private sector support.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: But but just what what do you see is the greatest challenge moving forward, trying to get this like I suppose moving faster?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, look, I think that although I'm not experiencing sort of overt kind of um obstruction, I think that that there are probably still organizations that you know just want to get tick boxes and you know just get this done.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I certainly um I've been looking at some of the gender equality action plans, and I I I you know I get asked to look at the worst ones, I have to say.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um I might have a bit of a bias to use.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm sure there are some I know there are some absolutely brilliant ones that we've received, but it seems like some organizations just want to tick boxes, and we won't let that happen.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: We won't let that sit through.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: We will we want to help them get better um and then and work with them as much as we can.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: But if if if if they won't get better, then we uh you know we've got the compliance mechanisms that we need.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's that passive passive resistance, I suppose, which is more about it's not overt.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a bit subtle.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, it's not gonna take this seriously, sort of thing.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you've got your up your your your radars up for that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're a mother of four and a full-time foster parent.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have two young adult stepchildren and ten grandchildren.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So clearly you're a you're a real nurturer and a carer, and somebody who, you know, clearly cares about your world and clearly about all your children, as we all do.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: How did you get involved in foster care and how are you juggling all of this?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it is a very full plate, let's be honest.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I I get a full plate, but this is a very full plate.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is a full plate.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but my kids are are grown up now, um, uh, although I don't think I'm working any any less than I was when they were younger.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my kids are grown up, they're all doing their own thing and they're all fantastic.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my two stepkids are 21 and 20.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: So same as me.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've got the same.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've got not step, I've got children who are similar ages, so I relate.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it does in what I think it does do is it does feed and fuel your understanding of the pressures of motherhood, workplace, and and all of these, the impact of that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, trying with a gender lens, once again, it does change it.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's right.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've I feel like um now with grandkids, I've I've I've got 10 grandkids, but they range.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was a I was a teenage mum, so um I I don't come from a privileged background.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was gonna say you look very young.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: You look very young.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like 10 grandchildren?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was married when I I was married at 18 and I had four kids by the time I was 25.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so I have grandkids now that range from um a few months uh right up to one who's 19.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a 19-year-old, or now just turning 20, step uh stepdaughter, a 19-year-old granddaughter, and my foster daughter is also 19.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: I've had her since she was 13, but she's um she's just turned 19 as well.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like I've got, you know, I'm a grandparent of a 19-year-old, a stepparent of a 19-year-old, and a foster parent of a 19-year-old.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, I can't read.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's really quite incredible.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: But so you just to come back, you so you're uh did you say you were uh you were pregnant at 16?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you said?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, I got I was married at 18 and I was I got pregnant at 18 as well.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, I had all my kids by the time I was 25, and then I went to university and did really, really well at university and my kind of my and then yeah, had all sorts of um won a few awards and things like that, which I wasn't expecting, and I was trying to do university with my kids were like babies, and I was also working part-time in the in the family business as well.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: But um, in the midst of um my my uh partner um uh leaving me for another woman and a whole bunch of crises in my life happening, I was I I got a letter saying that I was to receive the first university medal that the university had ever awarded.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I I suddenly thought, wow, okay, I didn't realise I was smart.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: I probably should do something with my life.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it sort of then started me on you know more of a um uh a journey around uh my career and social impact and you know, one and equality and and those sorts of things because I definitely experienced inequality and um and gender discrimination as a young person.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I definitely got on that track.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: But that's to get back to your question about um about why how did I get into fostering?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was very much I I um I got into going on the board of a foster organization, but I also felt um that I I'd had chances, it could have gone either way for me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: I could have ended up, you know, um uh you know taking a very different route in life.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm lucky, um, I had opportunities, I had people who um mentored me and looked out for me that made that you know that helped me along the path that I am on now.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: But it could have been very different, and I wanted to foster a young person from where I grew up, which is in the poor northern suburbs of South Australia, some of the poorest actually.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so I ended up with my foster daughter who it was a respite.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So she was just coming to me on weekends.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: She's African and she'd only been in the country for a while.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: She'd come in, didn't know her mother who brought her here.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Her mum had left when she was two, um, and came into a difficult situation, uh, a domestic violence situation, um, alcohol um misuse and so forth.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had her for respite until she finally decided that she felt unsafe at home and uh and and I said, Do you want to come and live with me?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what she did.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then she moved to Melbourne with me when I got this job, which was big for her because I don't think she'd ever ever moved, uh, ever um been to Melbourne before.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: But um she's established herself really well.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's important for me because she was just turning, she was 17, sort of when we had that discussion about coming to Melbourne.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: And those transition years, you would you would know as a parent from school, you know, then you know, establishing your own independence.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of a crucial time for kids in foster care.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yet that's when the relationship often ends.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, I I I felt very strongly that that the relationship will continue for the rest of her life if she wants it to, but that I wasn't going to say, oh no, sorry, that's it, it's over 18 or 17 or whatever.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that I was going to be there for her through that that those really important transitions where young people can get very lost, and and and particularly if you, you know, if um life circumstances haven't made that easy for you.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I think from that story, which is really quite uh, I suppose, moving to hear that you came from your own, it was your awareness of the discrimination and your own vulnerability that gave you the pathos and the empathy and the understanding of what change really needs to happen and also what it means, whether it's on a personal level with you know your foster daughter or whether it's moving forward on a much more organizational governmental role.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I just suppose we are all grateful and thankful that we have someone like you spearheading this incredible role and challenge and change.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And let's hope that we see it moving faster and quicker because you know I have daughters as well, and I I really hope and pray, I know that they will have in in 10 years' time, it's gotta, it's gotta be better, it's got to do better, and that's certainly what you're trying to achieve.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're absolutely right, and I think a lot of young women don't.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you when you really realise that there's gender equality still in existence, um, it is when you have children.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And and so we really want to make that kind of that very different.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I really want to see that you know the parenting responsibility isn't all on women's shoulders, that you know, we've got men taking up equal parenting roles and you know, equal time off of work and everyone's careers are just as important as everybody else's.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not along gender lines and those sorts of things.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Not to say that women shouldn't um become full-time parents and take that up as an option if that's what they want to do, but it needs to be a choice.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: It needs to be a choice that's made an absolute choice, not made out of the fact that you know partners earning more money and and etc.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: etc., because of the gender pay gap and so on.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's those kind of things that I also feel like it's important to influence.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And working, influencing in workplaces can, which is what we're doing and what this this act is doing, can really have those flow-on effects back, I think, into families and into culture more generally.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think actually it liberates both genders.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the beauty of that's what you know, it's it's not, and and often when I speak to people, it's about liberating both.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my mother was a magistrate and she was one of the first female barristers, and she was always about we can drive a female lens and not have to castigate the male lens.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: What we're doing is to actually share the load across the board, and and if we can do that, and I think that's really what I like about what I'm hearing from you is you can see that it's it's something that will liberate everyone if we can get to the next step.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, these gender stereotypes that influence influence men uh in so many ways as well.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: The cut you know, the kinds of things that um you know don't allow them to express their emotions and when they're struggling, don't allow them to reach out for help.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, that's why we have such a high suicide rate among men and so forth.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, my my I've got two, I've got two daughters and two sons, and you know, my son um is a very active parent.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: But do you think when he went for a role recently, um he asked that he wanted a later start time, just half an hour, so he could drop his daughter off at kindergarten each morning, which is part of what he does and what he values.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they said no.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: So he turned down the job because he thought, you know, that's that speaks of a culture that doesn't actually take this seriously.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it's hard for men to ask for those things.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard for them to ask for um to for parental leave.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there are there are there's a stigma associated with that, and there's also often disadvantage associated with taking time off to have children, which women experience.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's more acceptable for women to do that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: But then when they get back into the workforce, there are all sorts of other consequences for having taken time out of work, which means that they're left with less super and you know, all of that at the end.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: If men do ask to work flexibly or to take time out for caring responsibilities, they're much more likely to be refused.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not seen as so legitimate for men to do that.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we still we also have a long way to go in that regard because also now after COVID and with the change in the workplace, I know a lot of men who are working from home at least three days a week.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was just unheard of, but it's still there's pressure for them to go back into that sort of vortex, and it's a question of them they've also got their own mini-revolution going on.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that, if we can dovetail it so that everyone gets a little better fair share, then it's going to benefit everyone.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And part of this agenda is to do that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely right, absolutely right.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a it's a it's a really important um point that you've made.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is actually about benefiting, benefiting all genders, basically.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: We don't um we we we haven't defined gender in the Gender Equality Act, but it is about gender equality, uh not just about equality for women.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a very important distinction.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much, Nikki.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate you coming on.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you're flat out, but I really do think it's been a very valuable exchange and conversation, and I look forward to seeing what uh what happens in a you know 12 months' time, what sort of progress we make, and maybe we'll touch base then.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that that would be lovely, Deborah.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a great conversation, I really appreciate it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learn podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And let's have don't anyone to forget to coming on the show.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind of curious.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Love you.