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Rethinking Authority: From Control to Community (Christa L. McKirland) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural and political assumptions
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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto
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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this
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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm
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Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Christa l mcgirkland. She is the
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Speaker 1: author of a Theology of Authority, Rethinking or Leadership in
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Speaker 1: the Church, and she's also the Dina Faculty and Lecturer
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Speaker 1: in Systematic Theology at Carrie Baptist College in New Zealand.
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Speaker 1: And so Christa really happy to have you on the
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Speaker 1: show today. Thanks so much for being here.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much James for the invitation.
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Speaker 1: Truly honored, absolutely so. This is a fascinating book. And
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Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking about authority for some time.
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Speaker 1: I did some work in politics and so authority comes
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Speaker 1: up an awful lot there but I'm wondering what drew
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Speaker 1: you into this topic.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that, James. So for me being raised
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Speaker 2: Southern Baptists as a little girl growing up in the
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Speaker 2: Southern Baptist tradition in Georgia, really loving the church and
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Speaker 2: my dad's a minister in that context, and so found
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Speaker 2: my love for Jesus and my love for Scripture in
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Speaker 2: that context. But I didn't really see women, I mean
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Speaker 2: even passing an offering plate as simple as that, because
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Speaker 2: only deacon's passed offering plates, and women weren't allowed to
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Speaker 2: be deacons, and a lot of it circled around this
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Speaker 2: idea of well, women aren't allowed to have that kind
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Speaker 2: of authority. So I've heard that word since I was
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Speaker 2: really little, and since since that time, right going on
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Speaker 2: and doing I did a philosophy undergraduate degree that I
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Speaker 2: did a master's in Biblical exposition and Greek and Hebrew,
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Speaker 2: and then I did another master's in systematic theology, which
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Speaker 2: all of them combined for me to do my doctorate,
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Speaker 2: bringing all those disciplines together, so doing analytic and exegetical theology.
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Speaker 2: So taking this kind of really fine tooth comb way
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Speaker 2: of thinking toward kind of basic concepts, so words that
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Speaker 2: we use all the time, like authority and then saying, actually,
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Speaker 2: wait a minute, what do we mean by that? And
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Speaker 2: what I found is we often have a lot of
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Speaker 2: assumptions when we use that word, and we use it
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Speaker 2: a lot like teaching authority or spiritual authority or fill
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Speaker 2: in the blank. Deacons have this type of authority. And
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Speaker 2: I just you know, as I was getting into my
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Speaker 2: PhD and then thinking with this analytic lens, but I
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Speaker 2: actually think I have the chops now to kind of
2:50
Speaker 2: tackle that question what do we mean by authority? So
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Speaker 2: that's what got me into that is very much from
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Speaker 2: my experience, but seeing this gap really in how we
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Speaker 2: talk about this concept.
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Speaker 1: And I think probably as I read through your work,
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Speaker 1: I think people are probably most familiar with one specific
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Speaker 1: type of authority. But maybe what would be helpful is
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Speaker 1: two things. Number One, you use Richard de George's work.
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Speaker 1: I think I'm getting that right. Richard George George can't talk,
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Speaker 1: but you use his framework for a lot of this.
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Speaker 1: And I was unfamiliar with him, got a little bit
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Speaker 1: more familiar with him through your book, and then read
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Speaker 1: some of his stuff sort of ancillarily. But i'd love
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Speaker 1: to have your take on why do George in his
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Speaker 1: work was so compelling, why you used it?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this will come back to that analytic way
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Speaker 2: of thinking. So funny enough, my PhD I had done
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Speaker 2: a similar methodology where I had found this concept of
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Speaker 2: need that was actually really theologically salient, really significant for
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Speaker 2: talking theologically about what it means to be human. So
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Speaker 2: I'd come across an analytic philosopher who wasn't trying to
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Speaker 2: think in a Christian key. His rubric helped me then
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Speaker 2: think a bit more carefully about this concept of need,
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Speaker 2: which then really shaped my whole theological anthropology. So then
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Speaker 2: as I was coming into this authority project, I actually
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Speaker 2: wasn't really meaning to do the same methodology, but I
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Speaker 2: found similarly and funny enough, same year everything but another
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Speaker 2: analytic philosopher from nineteen eighty five to George, who had
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Speaker 2: done something similar with this concept of authority. I thought, well,
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Speaker 2: I really like how this worked for my PhD, which
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Speaker 2: then became my first book on my own theological anthropology.
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Speaker 2: God's provision, humanity's need, the gift of our dependence. And
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Speaker 2: so then now this is actually really turning in a
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Speaker 2: communal key and saying how are we meant to relate
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Speaker 2: to one another in the body of Christ. So it's
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Speaker 2: kind of theological anthropology communally situated. And then I came
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Speaker 2: across this as really as I was trying to just
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Speaker 2: get my bearings on well what do we mean by
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Speaker 2: this word? And I thought, actually, this is so rich.
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Speaker 2: I think this could act actually frame the project itself.
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Speaker 2: So this kind of metaphor that you would have seen
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Speaker 2: through the book right of thinking through kind of what
5:06
Speaker 2: are the materials that make up our bricks, So the
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Speaker 2: minerals and the soils, the clay coming from Georgia that
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Speaker 2: make up the bricks that we then will build our
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Speaker 2: theology of authority based upon. And so to build that,
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Speaker 2: what's in the soil the words that we use. And
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Speaker 2: so analytic philosophy is this gorgeous tool. I know analytic
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Speaker 2: philosophy is not for everyone, but for me, especially for
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Speaker 2: a project like this where we're seeking clarity on things
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Speaker 2: that actually when we're not clear, we do a lot
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Speaker 2: of harm. That's been my experience. And so I thought, well,
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Speaker 2: this is a great tool to bring to this conversation,
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Speaker 2: and so did George. Was just this really low hanging
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Speaker 2: fruit I've read widely on other kind of philosophers who
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Speaker 2: did kind of this precise work on authority, but he
5:55
Speaker 2: was the best. He just had the most clarity, and
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Speaker 2: he gave me a starting point. And so I even
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Speaker 2: say that I think in the book like, hey, there
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Speaker 2: may be other ways to parse this out, but we've
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Speaker 2: got to get the conversation off the ground. And so
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Speaker 2: exactly like what you're saying, when we hear that word authority,
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Speaker 2: we tend to think of a form of authority called
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Speaker 2: imperative authority. I say jump, you say how high? And
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Speaker 2: if you don't, I get to compel a consequence. But
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Speaker 2: that's actually a very narrow band of all the different
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Speaker 2: permutations or expressions of authority that we actually see in society,
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Speaker 2: in our families, and I would say across scripture. And
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Speaker 2: so his framework then gave me kind of a lens
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Speaker 2: to come to the text knowing that the biblical scholars
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Speaker 2: aren't thinking in those analytic categories, but to say, kind
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Speaker 2: of descriptively, what would fit from what we're seeing scripture
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Speaker 2: in scripture descriptively, how might that map on to this rubric,
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Speaker 2: this helpful rubric that de George provides. So it was
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Speaker 2: really in the research process that I found him, but
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Speaker 2: it was having done a similar project beforehand that I thought, oh,
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Speaker 2: I think I could leverage him similarly with a real
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Speaker 2: theological upshot, even though that's not his intention as an
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Speaker 2: analytic philosopher.
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Speaker 1: Do you find it just and this is sort of
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Speaker 1: a side question before we jump into the questions about authority,
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Speaker 1: But you know, did George was in the business realm,
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Speaker 1: so he did a lot with business ethics and those
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Speaker 1: kind of things. Do you find that his model matches
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Speaker 1: so well within the church because the church has adopted
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Speaker 1: some of the business structures. I was just sort of
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Speaker 1: one of the passing questions I had as I was
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Speaker 1: reading it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So that was something that was actually quite
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Speaker 2: sensitive to because I'm very concerned about how we just
7:43
Speaker 2: imported business models onto our churches. I think that is
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Speaker 2: the wrong way around. If a business model can be
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Speaker 2: helpful after the fact, but I think sometimes the tail
7:53
Speaker 2: is wagging the dog there. So that was one of
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Speaker 2: my as I read through him, because I'm also reading
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Speaker 2: did George quite critical, right, so I'm thinking through where
8:02
Speaker 2: is it different with what he's saying? So I would
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Speaker 2: push on some of how he parses out religious authority
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Speaker 2: and even God's authority because he is coming even though
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Speaker 2: it's not giving a Christian framework, he is coming from
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Speaker 2: what seems to me, I think a Roman Catholic perspective.
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Speaker 2: So he's got some pretty high views of how church
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Speaker 2: authority and God's authority would be mediated through that that
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Speaker 2: I don't really take on board entirely, though I love
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Speaker 2: the categories he gives us. And then the other piece,
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Speaker 2: I think to your point, even when he talks about
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Speaker 2: different groups in none of the ways the groups are
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Speaker 2: functioning and how authority might be operative. So it's that
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Speaker 2: word of operative authority where you're using you're allowing folks
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Speaker 2: to act on behalf of the group for an agreed
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Speaker 2: upon end. Well, the George is not bringing up that
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Speaker 2: the agreed upon end is given by God and that
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Speaker 2: the spirit is the one mediating that end, and so
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Speaker 2: coming from a low church, which this book is aimed
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Speaker 2: at low church folks, because we keep saying, oh, we
9:05
Speaker 2: don't do authority, right, priestit of all believers, we don't
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Speaker 2: do hierarchy, And I'm like, I'm sorry, we sure do.
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Speaker 2: And because we don't name it, we can't. Then interrogate
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Speaker 2: it and say which are good and bad uses of authority.
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Speaker 2: So in saying all of that, I was very sensitive,
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Speaker 2: and I'm sure I didn't catch all the areas where
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Speaker 2: there would be inconsistency between did George's framework and an
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Speaker 2: ecclesial framework, but I came with those antenna hurt thinking through. Okay,
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Speaker 2: this is not thinking pneumatologically. Whereas my work and even
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Speaker 2: my first book, that's the whole thread of thinking about
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Speaker 2: humanness is we've actually got to think about the spirit
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Speaker 2: and we also have to think about Christology. So those
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Speaker 2: aren't in the George's frame. So that's that's going to impact,
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Speaker 2: of course how he thinks about operationalizing authority.
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Speaker 1: But I think what I found as I was reading
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Speaker 1: through your book. You know you've got the the two
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Speaker 1: major ones executive and non executive, and then the subdivisions
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Speaker 1: within that imperative, performative and then really the non executive.
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Speaker 1: Does it have helped me out with epistemic?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, epistemic and exemplary.
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Speaker 1: An exemplary. Thank you, Epistemic and exemplary. They if I
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Speaker 1: look at the church phenomenologically, apart from scripture, you see
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Speaker 1: all four of these operative and to your point, you know,
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Speaker 1: within low church traditions where we don't really talk about authority,
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Speaker 1: an awful lot epistemic and.
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Speaker 2: Exemplary.
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Speaker 1: Epistemic and exemplary are there, sort of in spades. You
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Speaker 1: see them all over the place. And then I would
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Speaker 1: even say, the charismatic aspects that you pull into that
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Speaker 1: executive side are really there. So I think you did
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Speaker 1: a like just if I'm looking phenomenologically, I see those.
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Speaker 1: And then what I found compelling about your book was
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Speaker 1: your root those back into scripture and kind of saying
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Speaker 1: not let's put this map on top of the Bible
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Speaker 1: and then read it, but more, can't do these really
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Speaker 1: emerge out of the text? In other words, can we
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Speaker 1: connect from the bottom of the Biblical text up to
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Speaker 1: these concepts and show that they really do emerge out
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Speaker 1: of what we're seeing in scripture? Which I thought was
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Speaker 1: really helpful.
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Speaker 2: So thank you.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe we should go through and help people understand
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Speaker 1: these these broad categories of executive non executive, and then
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Speaker 1: the subcategories underneath them, just to give people a sense
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Speaker 1: of what they are.
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Speaker 2: Great. Yeah, So, as we've mentioned, right, imperative executive authority
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Speaker 2: is the species people tend to think of the most
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Speaker 2: But we're going to talk first. As you said, these
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Speaker 2: two broad families of thinking about authorities, so executive and
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Speaker 2: non executive, and I'm using to George's categories here, so
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Speaker 2: he would say that the executive authorities, those aren't positional,
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Speaker 2: so you have that kind of authority. So a classic example, right,
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Speaker 2: would be a police officer has authority to enact the
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Speaker 2: laws that are actually even police officers, right, they're delegated
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Speaker 2: executive authorities because they can't just go they're not supposed
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Speaker 2: to go off and do their own thing, right, so
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Speaker 2: they are authorized by the legislature and the law giving community,
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Speaker 2: which are supposed to be in a democratic society actually
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Speaker 2: authorized by the people. So you actually can see that
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Speaker 2: on executive authority, there's meant to be proper channels by
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Speaker 2: which authority is given. There's real strict limits on where
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Speaker 2: it should and shouldn't go. And so we might even
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Speaker 2: see in a more simple simple way as a parent
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Speaker 2: child relationship. So with my kids, I hope one day
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Speaker 2: they will eat their vegetables without having to have a
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Speaker 2: consequence compelled. But right now, the consequences if you don't
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Speaker 2: eat your vegetables then you're not going to get candy
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Speaker 2: ball after dinner. So I get to compel that consot
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Speaker 2: quins as their parent. But here's the thing, Right, if
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Speaker 2: I'm still parenting them like that when they're eighteen, something
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Speaker 2: actually hasn't worked correctly. Like if that, because that is
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Speaker 2: actually the lowest form and we find this in psychological
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Speaker 2: literature as well. Right, the lowest form of motivation is
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Speaker 2: do this because I said so. But executive imperative authority
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Speaker 2: has that ability, and in certain cases that is needed
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Speaker 2: in societal functions. What I push against pretty hard is
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Speaker 2: I actually think we don't have that form of interpersonal
13:32
Speaker 2: authority in the church. Again, speaking in a low church context.
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Speaker 2: I know other churches with a hierarchical understanding they would
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Speaker 2: push on me on this, and that's just fine. But
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Speaker 2: for low church folks who say we don't do hierarchy,
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Speaker 2: I would say, we don't have this ability for a
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Speaker 2: singular individual to say you cannot do X, Y or Z,
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Speaker 2: and I can compel a consequence if you do what
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Speaker 2: we can say. And this is going to come back
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Speaker 2: to our authority of scripture, which, in getting a little
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Speaker 2: ahead of us there, we can say, I think scripture
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Speaker 2: says that you're not to do X, Y or Z.
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Speaker 2: But in that case, God is the authority. Scripture is
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Speaker 2: mediating that authority, and I am the interpreter of that authority.
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Speaker 2: But I always have to be aware as an interpreter,
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Speaker 2: I can be fallible in my interpretation. So this is
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Speaker 2: why I really exhort communal interpretation. I exhort doing that
14:27
Speaker 2: in our local communities in relationship. And I also do
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Speaker 2: love people being theologically trained and scripturally literate, so all
14:35
Speaker 2: of that comes into play there. But all that to say,
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Speaker 2: I do give one one counterexample to that, which would
14:40
Speaker 2: be church discipline. But even in that case, it's not
14:44
Speaker 2: a singular individual who's making those decisions. So this is
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Speaker 2: pulling from a Matthew eighteen understanding that if something has
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Speaker 2: gone on in the body and it seems to me
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Speaker 2: and I tease us out in the book, it's defaming
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Speaker 2: the gospel, so the witness and or the words of
15:01
Speaker 2: Christ Jesus, and it is defaming that witness of the community.
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Speaker 2: The community has a responsibility to call that out. But
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Speaker 2: even then Matthew eighteen right, the discipline text is in
15:12
Speaker 2: the context of the parable of the Lost Sheet so
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Speaker 2: it's all about restoration even then, So that is a
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Speaker 2: one form of imperative executive authority that I still see
15:22
Speaker 2: as operative in the church. But that is precious little.
15:26
Speaker 2: But how funny it is that most of the time
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Speaker 2: when we think of authority, that's the thing we go to,
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Speaker 2: which I see is quite exceptional across the canon.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think you're sorry if I can just
15:38
Speaker 1: that your work in that passage, that discipline passage. I
15:43
Speaker 1: started thinking about higher Church traditions, and I don't represent
15:46
Speaker 1: the High Church tradition in any way, shape or form,
15:49
Speaker 1: but understanding even how their processes work. A lot of
15:53
Speaker 1: that is we could call it representative communal. So it's
15:58
Speaker 1: not like there's one person who makes a decision, even
16:01
Speaker 1: when we have if we looked at Catholics and you said, well,
16:04
Speaker 1: how's the pope chosen? Well, the pope isn't just you know,
16:07
Speaker 1: there's not just one pope chooser. There's just not totally why.
16:10
Speaker 1: It's a council of people who kind of get together
16:12
Speaker 1: and say okay this, and those council of people have
16:15
Speaker 1: been appointed by other councils of people, and so you
16:17
Speaker 1: have this sort of rounding communal but it is intended
16:20
Speaker 1: to be representative communal. Yeah, that's a great certain degree,
16:24
Speaker 1: and so I don't think you can get away from
16:27
Speaker 1: just the communal aspects of this, I guess.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
16:30
Speaker 1: I love that reading your piece.
16:32
Speaker 2: I love that, And I think that's actually a really
16:34
Speaker 2: great touch point between thinking through what Low Church and
16:37
Speaker 2: high churches could learn from each other in this because
16:40
Speaker 2: I actually think those who have done hierarchy and it's
16:42
Speaker 2: more of a feature not a bug in the ecclesial tradition,
16:46
Speaker 2: there's actually more checks and balances and measures to then
16:51
Speaker 2: make sure there's not overreach that because we in low
16:54
Speaker 2: Church context have not said we have that. I feel
16:57
Speaker 2: like we're just shooting from the hip all the time
16:59
Speaker 2: and we're seeing that play out on a public sphere.
17:02
Speaker 2: How well that's going. It's not looking great? So so sorry.
17:06
Speaker 1: Back to your question, Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: The other executive authority, the other form of executive authority.
17:12
Speaker 1: So we've gotten the.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the or the imperative. Yep, so imperative
17:16
Speaker 2: right to command, to command and the power to compel
17:18
Speaker 2: a consequence. But then there's this other species of executive authority,
17:22
Speaker 2: which is called performative executive authority. And so thinking about
17:26
Speaker 2: this in a normal role, you might think of a surgeon, Right,
17:29
Speaker 2: you're sick, you need to have a procedure, you need
17:31
Speaker 2: to have that performed on you, and you don't have
17:34
Speaker 2: the expertise to do that thing. But you're the patient.
17:37
Speaker 2: You are commissioning that surgeon. But once you're under anesthesia,
17:42
Speaker 2: you are completely under their authority, right, but you have
17:47
Speaker 2: authorized them to act on your behalf, and it is
17:50
Speaker 2: also for a set end, so the limits of that
17:54
Speaker 2: performative executive authority are also quite bounded. You might think
17:57
Speaker 2: of a lawyer doing the same thing and representing you
18:02
Speaker 2: before a judge, that kind of thing, but you're still
18:03
Speaker 2: the client. So there's this real sense of a proximity
18:08
Speaker 2: relation between the person who's being represented and the person
18:12
Speaker 2: who's doing the performing on that person that if they're
18:15
Speaker 2: not performing it, well, they get called to account on that.
18:18
Speaker 2: So we're going to circle back to that one in
18:20
Speaker 2: a second, but let me just finish out the other
18:22
Speaker 2: two categories. Okay, So that's executive, that is to have
18:26
Speaker 2: an authority and its positional. What's so fascinating those most
18:30
Speaker 2: of our authorities in our everyday interactions fall in the
18:34
Speaker 2: non executive category, and these are a matter of beating
18:39
Speaker 2: an authority. So this falls into two categories. Broadly epistemic,
18:43
Speaker 2: which is just a fancy word for knowledge what you know.
18:46
Speaker 2: So I have more knowledge, well maybe on authority right now,
18:51
Speaker 2: though you probably have comparable with having read my book,
18:53
Speaker 2: but I had a bit more knowledge than you did.
18:57
Speaker 2: But as an epistemic authority, that doesn't give me power
19:00
Speaker 2: over you. You get to choose whether or not to believe
19:05
Speaker 2: what I say, often based upon the argument. You might
19:09
Speaker 2: also look at how how could this be lived? So
19:12
Speaker 2: you're looking at pragmatic concerns. So you're testing that epistemic authority.
19:16
Speaker 2: But all you have to do to undermine the power
19:20
Speaker 2: of an epistemic authority is simply not believe. That's all
19:26
Speaker 2: it takes. So Letty Russell talks about this like, actually,
19:29
Speaker 2: we have great power, and I think about this in
19:32
Speaker 2: our current age of disinformation and misinformation. Actually those things
19:38
Speaker 2: don't have to have authority over us and don't have
19:40
Speaker 2: to have power over our minds if we can do
19:43
Speaker 2: fact checking right and source checking. So not believing is
19:47
Speaker 2: the mode of resistance. So there isn't a power to
19:50
Speaker 2: compel obedience. There's not a power to compel a consequence.
19:53
Speaker 2: I should also have said with performative authority, it's not
19:56
Speaker 2: so much a power to enforce a consequence as it
19:59
Speaker 2: is if you don't have the performance, the consequence happens naturally, gotcha.
20:05
Speaker 2: So if you don't have the surgery, you might die
20:07
Speaker 2: of that sickness. If you don't have representation, you might
20:10
Speaker 2: go to jail. So the consequence, instead of it being
20:13
Speaker 2: I'm compelling one, a consequence just is naturally happening. So
20:18
Speaker 2: the performative there's still a consequence in play, but it's
20:22
Speaker 2: not as direct of a power over, so it's more
20:25
Speaker 2: of a power with and so I play with some
20:27
Speaker 2: of the power categories as well. So then finally in
20:30
Speaker 2: going back to the non executive, so it's quick summary
20:33
Speaker 2: again executive authority having a positional authority. So that's imperative
20:38
Speaker 2: I can command, or it's performative I act on you,
20:41
Speaker 2: but you've consented to my acting on you. Non executive
20:45
Speaker 2: no power over, but it's power to teach or power
20:50
Speaker 2: to equip. So that's where epistemic is one of those
20:54
Speaker 2: authorities where I have more knowledge than you so I
20:58
Speaker 2: am an epistemic authority and then finally is exemplary authority.
21:02
Speaker 2: So this is where especially on apprentice models, right, So
21:07
Speaker 2: to become a plumber, you might follow a plumber around
21:11
Speaker 2: and you watch how they fix that toilet. That tells
21:14
Speaker 2: you how to fix it. They're not going to maintain
21:17
Speaker 2: having exemplary authority if they don't actually fix the thing.
21:21
Speaker 2: So the proof is in the pudding. And then the
21:23
Speaker 2: proof for you is that you imitate their actions and
21:27
Speaker 2: you are then able to do the thing that they're doing. Now,
21:29
Speaker 2: of course we see throughout the philosophical schools, throughout ancient
21:33
Speaker 2: history through to Jesus, right, parapatetic, you're walking with the person,
21:38
Speaker 2: the rabbi that you want to become like. So actually
21:42
Speaker 2: that exemplary authority is incredibly profound. And again it doesn't
21:48
Speaker 2: give the person power over because you're choosing. There's a
21:51
Speaker 2: lot of agency involved in this. I'm choosing to imitate
21:56
Speaker 2: that person because I want to look like them. So
22:00
Speaker 2: the exemplary authority, it doesn't have the power to compel obedience,
22:05
Speaker 2: but it is this power to become like me. And
22:09
Speaker 2: so this is of course, I think so salient in
22:12
Speaker 2: the New Testament, because we see this imitate me as
22:16
Speaker 2: I imitate Christ. Right looking at Paul and so much
22:19
Speaker 2: discipleship I think is based in these non executive authority categories.
22:24
Speaker 2: Now finally to circle back to the performative authority, So
22:28
Speaker 2: I do provide kind of a constructive category that I
22:32
Speaker 2: think is operative in the church that did George is not. Again,
22:35
Speaker 2: that's not his mindset, right. So looking at how I
22:39
Speaker 2: read the New Testament, and I go through a lot
22:42
Speaker 2: of those texts in a bit more detail to just
22:45
Speaker 2: trite to say, hey, I think this is emerging from
22:48
Speaker 2: the text. Not that I'm trying to impose this from
22:50
Speaker 2: the top down, but thinking of what do leaders in
22:56
Speaker 2: our churches, What kind of authority do they have? What
22:59
Speaker 2: seems they begin with having exemplary authority, they are looking
23:06
Speaker 2: like Jesus. And then you do get at a few
23:10
Speaker 2: texts about having this capacity to teach, whether or not
23:14
Speaker 2: that's a skill or a gift. It gets a bit mixed.
23:17
Speaker 2: It might be both of it be one or the other.
23:19
Speaker 2: But and then also there's parts in the New Testament
23:21
Speaker 2: it's like all of you should be teaching by now.
23:23
Speaker 2: So there's also questions on how we're actually meant to
23:25
Speaker 2: teach one another. But regardless, we see that that non
23:29
Speaker 2: executive exemplary authority paired with the non executive epistemic authority
23:36
Speaker 2: then warrants that person being chosen by the community to
23:41
Speaker 2: be performative in their executive authority. But it is not imperative.
23:47
Speaker 2: It is to perform, and I call it equipping performative authority.
23:53
Speaker 2: This is pulling heavily from Ephesians four, but I think
23:56
Speaker 2: we can see it latently in other texts where the
23:59
Speaker 2: task of those who are leading and leading is plural.
24:02
Speaker 2: As best we can tell, in the New Testament, leadership
24:05
Speaker 2: is plural. The task of leaders is to equip the
24:09
Speaker 2: saints for the work of ministry. It's not the task
24:13
Speaker 2: of the leaders to do the work of ministry. Their
24:16
Speaker 2: function is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. So,
24:19
Speaker 2: if we're going to actually say what's the task that
24:22
Speaker 2: those who are being performed on, what are they holding
24:26
Speaker 2: those leaders to account on? It's are they being equipped? Now.
24:30
Speaker 2: What my hope is with the book is it actually
24:32
Speaker 2: cuts two ways. One is I think we do need
24:36
Speaker 2: to kind of de celebritize leaders and be really aware
24:43
Speaker 2: of how we have created two tiered hierarchies within our
24:46
Speaker 2: communities of clergy and lady, and I just I don't
24:49
Speaker 2: see that as the New Testament ethos. While at the
24:53
Speaker 2: same time, I think we need leaders and we need
24:57
Speaker 2: good ways to talk about leadership, which is what I'm
25:00
Speaker 2: hoping this book moves us toward. But the second way
25:02
Speaker 2: this book cuts is to say, hey, spirit gifted saints,
25:07
Speaker 2: you've got a responsibility. So if you keep just thinking, oh, well,
25:12
Speaker 2: I pay my tithe, I don't need to do that
25:15
Speaker 2: heavy lifting like they do the hard work. Right, why
25:18
Speaker 2: do pastors where so many pastors burning out? I think
25:22
Speaker 2: we have this very passive body who doesn't realize their
25:26
Speaker 2: spirit gifted dignity and to walk in that. And so
25:30
Speaker 2: this is where the equipping performative authority. I say, if
25:33
Speaker 2: you are enabling your communities, if you're doing for the
25:36
Speaker 2: body what the body should be doing for itself, that's
25:39
Speaker 2: an overreach of that performative executive authority. And if you
25:43
Speaker 2: are sitting in a pew and expecting to just keep
25:47
Speaker 2: being spoon fed, and you just stay on milk and
25:50
Speaker 2: not move on to solid food, you've got a responsibility
25:53
Speaker 2: to step into your discipleship. So it really I hope
25:57
Speaker 2: it cuts both ways. I don't want church was finishing
26:00
Speaker 2: it thinking oh gosh, and I've just got so much
26:02
Speaker 2: more to do. I hope they feel encouraged that they've
26:07
Speaker 2: got a whole community that's meant to be doing that
26:09
Speaker 2: with them, and I hope people in a few think, ah,
26:14
Speaker 2: I've got some real dignity that the God of the
26:16
Speaker 2: universe has given me that I need to be stepping
26:18
Speaker 2: into and that those might work together. So that's the.
26:22
Speaker 1: GISTs that was I mean, I think that that last
26:26
Speaker 1: point was something I wanted to bring up. Where As
26:30
Speaker 1: you're reading through this, you get the sense that a
26:33
Speaker 1: lot of the times when you might see authority abused,
26:38
Speaker 1: let's say, part of the problem is that the people
26:43
Speaker 1: who are having the authority exercised over them don't know
26:47
Speaker 1: enough to check the authority that they put in place
26:50
Speaker 1: over them. And so the epistemic side, let's say we
26:57
Speaker 1: should be able to see false teaching, a false teachers
27:01
Speaker 1: per se, right, I would make a little bit of
27:03
Speaker 1: a distinction which isn't quite publical, but a false teaching
27:06
Speaker 1: maybe a mistake in teaching. Somebody gets something wrong, as
27:09
Speaker 1: you'd mentioned, you know, your fallible interpretations, right, but the
27:13
Speaker 1: people in the pew should be able to recognize that
27:16
Speaker 1: and address some of that, right, not in an evil way,
27:19
Speaker 1: but just in a hey are you sure about this
27:22
Speaker 1: one kind of kind of move. But when we're not
27:25
Speaker 1: able to do that, that then creates the space for
27:29
Speaker 1: that epistemic authority to turn into more of a weird
27:34
Speaker 1: exemplary authority and potentially a weird performative authority. And so
27:40
Speaker 1: there is this sort of two way street that needs
27:42
Speaker 1: to happen within the paradigm you've created. I think that
27:46
Speaker 1: it's like, if this is more of a consensus driven
27:49
Speaker 1: or a communally driven sort of approach to authority, I
27:54
Speaker 1: think you almost have to have lay leaders, lay people
27:58
Speaker 1: who are developing these characteristics as well. The other aspect
28:04
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about really was I found
28:09
Speaker 1: the it was really interesting and what came out clearly
28:12
Speaker 1: I think throughout the book is that there's the performative
28:16
Speaker 1: is to equip right, you just said it, the performatives
28:19
Speaker 1: to equip that the there isn't a holiness to choosing leadership,
28:24
Speaker 1: that this is a you know, more of a functional
28:26
Speaker 1: designation or organizational designation. And one of the techs I
28:30
Speaker 1: kept thinking around was acts. I think it's six or seven,
28:34
Speaker 1: where the Greek speaking Jews have come and they've said, hey,
28:38
Speaker 1: we're not getting enough food and there's not this distribution,
28:40
Speaker 1: and so what do the apostles do. They get together
28:42
Speaker 1: and they say, well, let's find some spirit filled men,
28:45
Speaker 1: some men of great character, right, Like they're not just
28:48
Speaker 1: picking scrubs out of the out of the group. They're saying,
28:52
Speaker 1: this is an important task. Now we need to be
28:55
Speaker 1: studying the word and praying, but we also need really
28:58
Speaker 1: gifted men to do this. And so then they choose
29:02
Speaker 1: these these two and then we see what happens with
29:05
Speaker 1: Stephen in the next chackter. But I found that to
29:08
Speaker 1: be a really compelling sort of moment to illustrate. I
29:12
Speaker 1: think what you're explaining, like, this is not a peon
29:16
Speaker 1: position that they're appointed to. This is a powerful position
29:20
Speaker 1: that they're pointed to, and they're appointed to it to
29:23
Speaker 1: serve the community.
29:24
Speaker 2: Totally. I love that. Yeah, and even just pulling that
29:26
Speaker 2: text up that it's the Hellenistic Jews who are complaining,
29:30
Speaker 2: and it's so interesting to me, right that they choose
29:33
Speaker 2: Stephen as you say, a man full of faith in
29:35
Speaker 2: the spirit, and Philip pro Chris, nick Nor Timm and
29:39
Speaker 2: Parmonis and Nicholas from antioch A convert to Judaism. So
29:42
Speaker 2: actually those names are actually indicating they're likely Greek as well. Right, yeah,
29:48
Speaker 2: so that's really intentional. Right, They're thinking, who can perform
29:53
Speaker 2: this task to this demographic effectively? And it's like, guys,
29:59
Speaker 2: just beautiful, so absolutely. And then of course I love
30:03
Speaker 2: the Book of Acts, so reading through it with our
30:04
Speaker 2: kids right now every night, and just the spirit and
30:09
Speaker 2: how often the Spirit is of course leading things. But
30:11
Speaker 2: then the community will say it seemed good to us
30:15
Speaker 2: and to the Spirit. So I think, and this is
30:17
Speaker 2: something that's a weakness of the George because it's not
30:19
Speaker 2: within his frame of reference. But it's not just because
30:24
Speaker 2: even with Baptists this is something it's a drum I
30:27
Speaker 2: be a lot is. It's not about democracy, it's about christocracy.
30:32
Speaker 2: So it's not about majority rule, it's not even about consensus.
30:36
Speaker 2: It is saying, Lord, God, what do you want us
30:40
Speaker 2: to do in this situation? And to know each other
30:44
Speaker 2: well enough and to be sensitive to what the Spirit
30:47
Speaker 2: is saving, which might even mean that it's the odd
30:50
Speaker 2: voice out. And so these are the questions I raised
30:53
Speaker 2: right at the end of the book, like what do
30:55
Speaker 2: we have spaces for group discussion, for studying the scriptures
31:00
Speaker 2: from hearing the scriptures read together? Where are our spaces
31:04
Speaker 2: to ask questions and to hear that lone voice, because
31:07
Speaker 2: sometimes it's the lone voice that is hearing the spirit
31:10
Speaker 2: and the rest of us need to hear that. But
31:12
Speaker 2: I think what really challenges us, as I've talked more
31:16
Speaker 2: about this book in other spaces, is actually how much
31:19
Speaker 2: time this takes. Like what I'm actually recommending this is
31:25
Speaker 2: not it doesn't say rethinking efficient leadership in the church.
31:29
Speaker 2: It's rethinking leadership in the church. Right, So this is
31:32
Speaker 2: a whole pair. I like that you said paradigm right,
31:34
Speaker 2: it's a paradigm shifter of how much does this actually cost?
31:39
Speaker 2: And so this is where again I think it cuts
31:41
Speaker 2: to the person and the pew also saying hey, brother,
31:45
Speaker 2: hey sister, I'm I'm calling you out for your ninety
31:50
Speaker 2: minute a week Christianity. Yeah, that is not the come
31:55
Speaker 2: and follow me call that I see from Jesus. So
31:59
Speaker 2: it is this is for all of us to walk
32:02
Speaker 2: in our because every person has this, I think because
32:05
Speaker 2: of the spirit, the capacity to grow in our exemplary
32:09
Speaker 2: authority and even our epistemic authority. And I think there's
32:13
Speaker 2: like I learned from my kids, right, they teach me things.
32:16
Speaker 2: There's things that they're knowledgeable on that I'm not knowledgeable on,
32:19
Speaker 2: and I learn from them. And Jesus even says as much, right,
32:22
Speaker 2: like learning from the children. And so I just there's
32:27
Speaker 2: so much here. I don't want to go off on
32:29
Speaker 2: too many tangents, but.
32:31
Speaker 1: No, it's fantastic. I think, you know, one thing I
32:33
Speaker 1: wanted to draw out to just to kind of give
32:36
Speaker 1: a little bit of a sense of that executive leadership,
32:38
Speaker 1: because I think the parent child analogy is really helpful there.
32:42
Speaker 1: Even more, I think it's hard to think outside of
32:45
Speaker 1: a business context here, at least it was for me,
32:48
Speaker 1: and so I was struggling against that every once in
32:50
Speaker 1: a while I read the book. But when I'd run
32:51
Speaker 1: across the parent child thing, I kept going back to
32:53
Speaker 1: Ephesian six, and I found that text really compelling because
32:57
Speaker 1: what you get is you obviously get the instructions to
32:59
Speaker 1: the children to obey their parents, and you have this
33:03
Speaker 1: is the only command with the promise, But then you
33:06
Speaker 1: also have the instruction to the parents, do not exasperate
33:10
Speaker 1: your children. And so you see this beautiful like even
33:13
Speaker 1: within that executive functioning, Okay, parent, you have an authority,
33:17
Speaker 1: but it's a constrained authority. And I think we could
33:21
Speaker 1: it while it's not explicit in the text, I would
33:23
Speaker 1: say it's because it's a delegated authority, Like there's a
33:27
Speaker 1: sense in which we're exercising this under the authority of Christ.
33:31
Speaker 1: And we see it more explicitly in the marriage text
33:34
Speaker 1: in chapter five, right, but then it's obviously available in
33:37
Speaker 1: like Ephesians five, what fifteen through twenty one or something
33:40
Speaker 1: like that, right to talk submitting to one obviously in
33:43
Speaker 1: those things, and you see this all sort of enveloped
33:46
Speaker 1: within being filled by the spirit. And so the spirit
33:49
Speaker 1: is guiding these practices, and these are instantiations the husband, wife,
33:54
Speaker 1: the child parent, and then the bond servant. Master texts
33:58
Speaker 1: are all sort of exams of how this mutual submission looks.
34:02
Speaker 1: And you see that sort of mutual curtailment on both
34:06
Speaker 1: sides of these equations to say, you actually don't get
34:09
Speaker 1: to exercise your authority in whatever way you feel like.
34:13
Speaker 1: This is about being led by the spirit into that
34:15
Speaker 1: exercise of authority.
34:17
Speaker 2: That's a beautiful way of thinking of that, especially in
34:19
Speaker 2: such a patriarchal context, right where those household codes would
34:23
Speaker 2: have immediately triggered this top down, unilateral executive And yes,
34:27
Speaker 2: the way Paul does flip these things on their head,
34:30
Speaker 2: which is quite powerful, and I think too just I
34:33
Speaker 2: like that you bring in that parent child in one
34:36
Speaker 2: example of the executive authority. And that is something else
34:38
Speaker 2: the books trying to help tease out is some of
34:40
Speaker 2: the ways we've brought those metaphors in an unhelpful way
34:45
Speaker 2: that if we start talking about awe, so the pastor
34:48
Speaker 2: is kind of like a father. And again, this is
34:51
Speaker 2: where I would part ways with some of our other
34:54
Speaker 2: hierarchical brothers and sisters who might use father language, because
34:58
Speaker 2: I take a pretty literal stance of when Jesus has
35:01
Speaker 2: called no one on our father, that it's because you
35:05
Speaker 2: have one father in heaven. And so I lean really
35:07
Speaker 2: heavily right into that sibling language, which actually is such
35:11
Speaker 2: an equalizing effect, while at the same time recognizing, going
35:15
Speaker 2: back to the exemplary bit, I'm going to have older
35:17
Speaker 2: siblings who look like Jesus more than I do, and
35:22
Speaker 2: I want to listen to their counsel in my life,
35:25
Speaker 2: but it is not binding on my conscience in this
35:29
Speaker 2: kind of they hold this office of pastor or elder
35:33
Speaker 2: or whatnot. No, they they look like Jesus, and that
35:37
Speaker 2: is winsome to me. And I spirit calls to spirit
35:40
Speaker 2: and I want their their counsel and correction and ultimately,
35:44
Speaker 2: end of the day, I'm going to stand before Jesus
35:46
Speaker 2: at the end of time and that to give an
35:48
Speaker 2: account for my own life and how well I've lived
35:51
Speaker 2: into that. But this is where I would just encourage,
35:53
Speaker 2: even just practically right that so often in our language
35:56
Speaker 2: we can say, well, as your pastor, you should dot
35:58
Speaker 2: dot dot, and I just want to courage people to
36:00
Speaker 2: say no, no, no, not as as your brother or
36:03
Speaker 2: as your sister. I want to encourage you dot dot.
36:06
Speaker 2: And that also is assuming relationship and trust and vulnerability.
36:11
Speaker 2: So there's a lot this is. It is kind of
36:14
Speaker 2: pushing us toward a whole paradigm shift. If we have
36:18
Speaker 2: tended toward CEO models of church where no one knows
36:22
Speaker 2: anyone and it's all about imperative executive authority. So I
36:26
Speaker 2: know I've got a tall order here, but hopefully the
36:29
Speaker 2: book at least edges us in a conversation we can
36:32
Speaker 2: at least start saying, well, what do I mean by
36:34
Speaker 2: those things? And is that the most God honoring way
36:38
Speaker 2: to think about my siblings in the faith? Yeah?
36:42
Speaker 1: Because I mean I even think. What came to mind
36:44
Speaker 1: as I was reading is that passage where Paul says,
36:45
Speaker 1: follow me as I follow Christ. Yeah, and the way
36:48
Speaker 1: he's sort of not saying follow me right all the time,
36:53
Speaker 1: and in every way he's saying, follow me as I
36:55
Speaker 1: follow Christ, like to the extent that I am following Christ.
36:57
Speaker 1: That's what you should see in me, and that's what
36:59
Speaker 1: you should It's not about me, And I just sort
37:03
Speaker 1: of love that gesturing. I do want to pivot a
37:06
Speaker 1: little bit. I don't want to lose this in the conversation.
37:09
Speaker 1: So on Timothy two eleven through sixteen.
37:12
Speaker 2: Thank you.
37:13
Speaker 1: It's really crucial. So I don't want to lose that.
37:15
Speaker 1: So why don't we turn to that so we don't
37:17
Speaker 1: run out of time on it?
37:18
Speaker 2: Yeah? Totally. So I know so much has been written
37:21
Speaker 2: on this text, right, I do not permit a woman
37:23
Speaker 2: to teach or have authority over a man, And of
37:24
Speaker 2: course that's the one verse out of a much larger
37:27
Speaker 2: context that you can read up on the listeners can.
37:31
Speaker 2: But the biggest point I'd want to have listeners walk
37:34
Speaker 2: away with is the verse says I do not permit
37:38
Speaker 2: a woman to teach or have authority over a man.
37:41
Speaker 2: What's fascinating to me is we then implicitly assume, well,
37:47
Speaker 2: men are therefore allowed to have authority over women, like
37:52
Speaker 2: we just we read in It's I don't know a
37:55
Speaker 2: good analogy to think through how that might translate into
38:00
Speaker 2: common everyday experience. But like there's a negative and then
38:04
Speaker 2: all of a sudden we read a positive and then
38:06
Speaker 2: also make it for all time in all places. And
38:08
Speaker 2: of course, like the word itself right is really is
38:11
Speaker 2: a problematic word in Greek. It's the only version of
38:16
Speaker 2: alfon taine that that author uses, and Pauline authorship has
38:21
Speaker 2: been historically thought to be first Smithy's written by Biblical
38:25
Speaker 2: scholarships pushed on that quite a bit in recent years,
38:28
Speaker 2: but all have to say, regardless of who wrote it,
38:29
Speaker 2: it's been received as canon. And so the fact that
38:33
Speaker 2: that scripture says alfin tain when in the rest of
38:38
Speaker 2: the New Testament we never get that word and the
38:42
Speaker 2: extra biblical literature that we look at the use of
38:44
Speaker 2: that word and it has a negative connotation. I think
38:49
Speaker 2: going back to the Georgia's categories, it's really helpful. I
38:52
Speaker 2: think what's happening there is there's a group of women
38:55
Speaker 2: in that context who are exercising an imperative executive authority
38:59
Speaker 2: that they have no to. The thing is no one does, right.
39:06
Speaker 2: So this is where I get really frustrated. And what
39:08
Speaker 2: prompted the project in the first place is again it's
39:12
Speaker 2: circling around this word authority, and then we bring all
39:15
Speaker 2: of our assumptions in with that. And then the further
39:18
Speaker 2: step we go is and then we try to fight
39:20
Speaker 2: for women to have equal authority to men in the church.
39:23
Speaker 2: And so then we're fighting for women to also have
39:25
Speaker 2: impaired to authority. And I'm like, I think that's a fiction.
39:29
Speaker 2: I literally think we are fighting for a fiction. So
39:33
Speaker 2: can we instead fight to be the first to submit
39:37
Speaker 2: to the other? Can we fight to be the first
39:40
Speaker 2: to love the other? Can we fight to be in
39:43
Speaker 2: those one another capacities to be known by our love
39:46
Speaker 2: for one another? Not do I get to have equal
39:50
Speaker 2: authority to you in the church? And so this brings
39:52
Speaker 2: in even that teaching authority category. We often assume a
39:57
Speaker 2: higher level of power with teaching authority, and I want
40:01
Speaker 2: to say, no, teaching authority. It's a thing, but it's
40:05
Speaker 2: non executive. It is questionable, and so the question becomes,
40:08
Speaker 2: do you have spaces to question this? I mean, I
40:11
Speaker 2: read the Brians as very extolled for questioning Paul and
40:16
Speaker 2: not just questioning him, but setting the scriptures in light
40:19
Speaker 2: of what he teaches them. And this brings in again
40:21
Speaker 2: the constructive exhortation by the end of the book is
40:23
Speaker 2: saying the early Church was a learning community. They would
40:27
Speaker 2: sit around over meals and they would talk about what
40:29
Speaker 2: Jesus had taught and they would say, well, what do
40:32
Speaker 2: you think about that? How do we apply that now?
40:34
Speaker 2: Are you sure about that? Like the words in the
40:37
Speaker 2: New Testament, they're very didactic, they're very verbal about what
40:41
Speaker 2: was happening in these gatherings. And so I think we've
40:44
Speaker 2: lost a lot since then. We've gained a lot to
40:47
Speaker 2: write the Church is in a very different age than
40:49
Speaker 2: it is now that it was in the first century,
40:51
Speaker 2: but we've also lost a lot, and so how do
40:54
Speaker 2: we reclaim some of that learning community, the spirit being
40:59
Speaker 2: more center the lordship of Christ, and also the costliness
41:02
Speaker 2: of our faith.
41:04
Speaker 1: Yeah.
41:05
Speaker 2: So anyway, so that's how I'd come to first symathy too,
41:08
Speaker 2: is that word. We have a lot of assumptions both
41:11
Speaker 2: about what the word actually means in our English translations,
41:14
Speaker 2: but then what's not even there. We then assume a
41:17
Speaker 2: positive prescription from a negative prohibition, negative prohibition for women
41:22
Speaker 2: at all times in all places, which I think overreaches
41:25
Speaker 2: the text, and then we make a positive prescription for
41:27
Speaker 2: men at all times in all places, which really overreaches
41:30
Speaker 2: the text.
41:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is where I felt like when you
41:36
Speaker 1: were discussing that. And there's a lot of varying baggage
41:41
Speaker 1: right that I could talk about. I'm not going to,
41:44
Speaker 1: but I'll just give one example. I think what we
41:48
Speaker 1: see sometimes in this text is the growth of inappropriate
41:57
Speaker 1: practices based on an interpretation which you know, as you
42:02
Speaker 1: talk about in the book the Bible, is God's delegated authority.
42:06
Speaker 1: It's this sort of commission of God's authority that's brought
42:09
Speaker 1: down to us. But our interpretation of it is not
42:12
Speaker 1: a delegated authority. It is and I believe you call
42:15
Speaker 1: it an epistemic authority or exemplary one of the two.
42:19
Speaker 1: Like it's this sort of we're we're taking this delegated
42:26
Speaker 1: authority from God and we're trying to understand it, and
42:28
Speaker 1: so it's influential, but it isn't authoritative in the same
42:33
Speaker 1: sense as God's word is authoritative, because we may not
42:36
Speaker 1: be getting it right. And so there has to be
42:38
Speaker 1: this grappling of do I believe it? And how do
42:42
Speaker 1: I accept this interpretation? And part of the challenge and
42:46
Speaker 1: I just be interested to hear you talk about this
42:48
Speaker 1: when you think about the collective sort of understandings that
42:55
Speaker 1: begin to swarm around interpretations like this, the way that
43:00
Speaker 1: these social environments now create an authority of their own
43:05
Speaker 1: that if you don't believe this particular thing, you are
43:09
Speaker 1: now at best a deviant and at worst a heretic. Yeah,
43:14
Speaker 1: there are these real life consequences to some of these
43:17
Speaker 1: things where it's almost like the group claims what might
43:20
Speaker 1: be in your framework, like that sort of performative authority, right,
43:26
Speaker 1: that there's a if you don't do this, there will
43:29
Speaker 1: be consequences sort of vibe to it that I think
43:33
Speaker 1: have curtailed real deep investigations of passages like a first
43:37
Speaker 1: Timothy two over maybe the last two or three decades
43:42
Speaker 1: of scholarship. I don't know whether any of that really
43:45
Speaker 1: makes sense.
43:45
Speaker 2: But yeah, totally so I think I love it. I
43:50
Speaker 2: love it. This is such a fun conversation, James. So
43:53
Speaker 2: I think this has come and so I have to
43:55
Speaker 2: give some treatment to this. Right in my what is scripture?
43:58
Speaker 2: What kind of authority does it have? Then? And understanding
44:02
Speaker 2: what is inspiration? How do we think about what the
44:05
Speaker 2: text actually is and what it is doing? And then
44:08
Speaker 2: the interpretation of those texts, and then the interpreting communities
44:12
Speaker 2: of those texts, and so this question around, For instance,
44:16
Speaker 2: inerrancy becomes one of those shibbaleths. Right, So if you
44:21
Speaker 2: don't hold this particular version of inerrancy, then you are
44:25
Speaker 2: on the Alps. You are no longer an insider. You
44:28
Speaker 2: can't have any way in this community. So the consequences
44:32
Speaker 2: are stark. And what I'm hopeful again, and I could
44:36
Speaker 2: just be naive, but my hopes for this book is
44:39
Speaker 2: that it gives people language of resistance yea to feel
44:45
Speaker 2: empowered in their own agency to say, actually, I don't
44:52
Speaker 2: I don't have to believe that, and not only I
44:56
Speaker 2: don't have to believe that, but my Bible study doesn't
44:58
Speaker 2: have to believe that. And we can talk about these things. Now,
45:01
Speaker 2: this is vulnerable, right because and I teach this in
45:03
Speaker 2: my classroom, right like students we're talking about the Trinity,
45:07
Speaker 2: for instance, I we sit under the mystery of this Trinity,
45:13
Speaker 2: and we're gonna use language as best we can. But
45:16
Speaker 2: it's like trying to have a glass to hold an ocean, right,
45:20
Speaker 2: But we have the gift of these resources from scripture
45:24
Speaker 2: and from church tradition that have given us this language
45:26
Speaker 2: and these creeds to talk about the try and God
45:29
Speaker 2: of the universe. But we're gonna misspeak because we are
45:35
Speaker 2: creature and God is creator. And so in all of this,
45:39
Speaker 2: like I want people to know I am a fallible
45:42
Speaker 2: epistemic authority, and I'm actually I'm better for it. I'm
45:46
Speaker 2: better for it in knowing that I am because it
45:49
Speaker 2: allows my siblings to speak into my life and an
45:52
Speaker 2: epistemic humility. If you want to talk about another category
45:55
Speaker 2: that's very important in this, right is we don't know
45:59
Speaker 2: it all. And so yeah, I think you're exactly right.
46:04
Speaker 2: The costs are high, but I hope that this gives
46:09
Speaker 2: people a resource to say, ah, I'm not crazy, and
46:14
Speaker 2: it's okay to disagree. And I do stand before the
46:19
Speaker 2: authority of the living God, not the authority of some
46:23
Speaker 2: artificial office or construct or category. Mistake. Ah, it's okay,
46:28
Speaker 2: because I do raise this in the book, that we
46:30
Speaker 2: can have this kind of existential paralysis if we think,
46:34
Speaker 2: if I question this office, the person that's holding this office,
46:38
Speaker 2: that my kind of existential state is in crisis, or
46:43
Speaker 2: this eschatological judgment. I'm on the chopping block, and I
46:46
Speaker 2: want to help quell some of those fears and say,
46:49
Speaker 2: I just don't think that's scriptural. I don't think that's
46:53
Speaker 2: how Jesus wants us to operate. And the Lord casts
46:56
Speaker 2: out the spirit of fear. And so let's feel more
47:00
Speaker 2: confident in our in what Christ has done. Let's start there,
47:06
Speaker 2: and what Christ has done on the cross and in
47:09
Speaker 2: his resurrection and in his ascension, he has sent us
47:12
Speaker 2: his own spirit of adoption. And that is the ground
47:16
Speaker 2: on which we stand and say Abba, Father, and we
47:19
Speaker 2: get to say to one another brother and sister, and
47:23
Speaker 2: then we get to look to Jesus now and for
47:25
Speaker 2: old time as we grow in our own exemplary understanding
47:30
Speaker 2: of looking more and more like him, And so I
47:33
Speaker 2: just want to push against fear that can so easily
47:37
Speaker 2: be a paralytic in these conversations and say that is
47:40
Speaker 2: not the God we serve.
47:43
Speaker 1: Well, let me say, I think from my perspective, I
47:45
Speaker 1: think you accomplish that. And so my encouragement would be
47:49
Speaker 1: for folks to go out and get this. I think
47:52
Speaker 1: that anytime I've taught on one Timothy two, these passages
47:57
Speaker 1: that we're talking about, it always ends up in some
47:59
Speaker 1: sort of like minor argument. And my counsel to everybody
48:02
Speaker 1: that I talked to about that passage is just remember
48:05
Speaker 1: there's a lot that's unclear here, but what is clear
48:09
Speaker 1: is Romans twelve to ten out do one another and
48:11
Speaker 1: showing honor. You're not missing that one up. Roman's twelve
48:16
Speaker 1: ten is very clear. So let's let the clear passages
48:19
Speaker 1: sort of help us as we approach the unclear do
48:23
Speaker 1: one another in showing honor, like pretty straightforward. So but
48:27
Speaker 1: I really we got to close this off. But I
48:31
Speaker 1: love the book. I really appreciate you being on today
48:34
Speaker 1: and just encourage people to go and get it. The
48:37
Speaker 1: book is a theology of authority Rethinking Leadership in the Church.
48:43
Speaker 1: It's published by Baker, but you can also get it
48:46
Speaker 1: on Amazon or wherever books are sold. I'll have the
48:49
Speaker 1: link in the show notes and just encourage everybody out
48:52
Speaker 1: there to go grab this read it. It's really helpful.
48:55
Speaker 1: And one of the things I really loved about it
48:58
Speaker 1: is if you want to I wouldn't suggest this, but
49:01
Speaker 1: you could. She gives you give these handles sort of
49:05
Speaker 1: at the end in your and it like, it's so nice.
49:08
Speaker 1: When I was going back through preparing for the interview
49:10
Speaker 1: after i'd read it, because I read it a month
49:12
Speaker 1: or so ago when we booked the interview, and then
49:15
Speaker 1: I was going back through today and I'm like, okay,
49:17
Speaker 1: let me just refresh. I went back to those italisized
49:19
Speaker 1: little points at the end of each chapter and I
49:21
Speaker 1: was like, this is super helpful. So thank you, very readable,
49:27
Speaker 1: very approachable, extremely helpful. Encourage you get the book. And again, Christa,
49:32
Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it.
49:34
Speaker 2: James, thank you so much.
49:37
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, everybody, Well, we will catch you on
49:39
Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I just
49:42
Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at
49:44
Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking
49:47
Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll
49:50
Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
49:53
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.