Latest / Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement / #123 "Living the Lie: Undercover with the Mafia" with Giovanni Rocco

Transcript

#123 "Living the Lie: Undercover with the Mafia" with Giovanni Rocco · Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement

0:00
SPEAKER_00: You knew when you start with the guy for a few minutes, yeah I gotcha.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: You buying what I'm selling, you're listening to it.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: Now it could be dangerous.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: I did some cartel work, and the cartels were you just to use them as an example of any organized crime.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, if I turn it up too high, it could be very fancy.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm a dude, I'm a slick back from New Jersey, New York, I'm a gangster amidst of that.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, viewers, watchers, listeners.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Tyler Owen got co-host, guest co-host in the house today, Mike Gomez, one of our field services supervisors.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Appreciate you being on, man.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, thank you.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Been busy, been busy.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: A little bit burning up the road.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, San Antonio, Austin, San Antonio, Austin, then up to uh you went last week, well, Houston last week.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: Alpine, El Paso.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but yeah, it's been it's been while which typically our field services, as you guys are well aware, we cover the entire state of Texas, which happens to be the biggest and best state across the country.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: And uh just going to support your guys.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, Discount Tire really loves me.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: That will change places, I'm I'm I'm pretty sure.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, anything going on in your zones?
1:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh no, we've got some stuff, small things coming up that are not technically secure yet, but I will announce the uh motorcycle rodeo in Round Rock.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, big time.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: Tentative dates right now are March 4th through the 8th.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: It was a great success last year.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: We're going to make it even double this year.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: It was.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: And and you know what's cool is that the the uh Round Rock Police Department, they're stepping to success.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: For those that don't know, the motorcycle rodeo benefits TNPA charities and the step into success, which the officers get to go out and purchase some you know shoes for the for the uh the needy little children there in the community.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's uh it's a it's a good deal, man.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: And I've I've really enjoyed going up there and me being a prior you know, motor cop, it's uh it's a really enjoyable event.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's at a beautiful spot too, by the way.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we got some really exciting vendors coming this year.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm gonna save that announcement for later on, but we got some inventors coming out.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be great.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: For those that have been asking about the Texas Peace Office Memorial, again, the date is set for April 26th on a Sunday.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: It's a great event to show up and show your support for those who have given the ultimate sacrifice uh for not only their communities, but also this great state of Texas.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: And so I encourage you, if you've never been, go ahead and show up.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: We are gonna be on hand along with all the concerns of police survivors.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Shout out to them for putting on an amazing uh Peace Office Memorial that's right there at the Capitol Grounds, beautiful event, and um it's always good to see it's kind of turned it kind of turns into like a family reunion, but that's gonna be April 26th.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: And for those that have been asking, save the date.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: TMPA 2026 conference is gonna be July 24th through the 26th, they're in Dallas, Texas at the Hyatt Regency.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: And speaking of the conference, one of our special guests today who I have grown to love and respect, I met him at the San Antonio conference a couple years ago, had a great time, and he's got a pretty uh pretty mediocre story.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's kind of not really a big deal, but when you start talking to him, you kind of figure out maybe maybe he is.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: So Mike wanted to get him on and uh dive off into his book.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: I heard some chitter chatter from Mike that he had a couple of questions about what's going on in the book, and so you've also got some uh a pretty fascinating story.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: So we appreciate you coming on Blue Grid, and you've also got some stuff going on here in Texas with some um mental health aspect and some some rehab places, so we're gonna discuss those too.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: But Mike, intro our guest, Giovanni.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, welcome, brother.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Welcome, thanks for watching.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for talking about it for a long time.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: I think for a few years, and I've been ducking you like I owed you money.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for real, for real.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's a pleasure to be here.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: So for those that don't know, why don't you talk about where kind of you start off your uh your career at and then uh kind of where we where we are today?
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I am a 27-year law enforcement officer, third generation cop.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: I say cop because I was a cop.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: I started out my career as a cop.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: Everybody thinks I'm a federal agent, but I didn't, I was not a federal agent.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: So you're a real cop.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, real cop.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: And and not to offend anybody, but it's a big difference.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: We'll leave it say that.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: Even my agent friends say that.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I started out in New Jersey.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: I was a I was a police officer in New Jersey.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: I was a B cop.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: I got hired.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: I should have never been a B cop.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I should have been dead or in jail by 25, I think I was told.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: I was a cop's kid.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: I was a grandkid of a cop, family, brothers, uncles, you know, all law enforcement.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: But I was the black chief of my family.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: I always had that flame burning to be a cop.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: I write about it in my book.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, I had a great career.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: I worked patrol, I worked my way into narcotics early on.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: I was a great narcotics cop, ticked my father off because he wanted to see me be a suit.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: We call him suits, right?
4:26
SPEAKER_00: In the New York, New Jersey area.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: When you become a detective, you're either a gold shield or you're a suit.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: So he convinced me to be a suit.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: I said, Nope, I want to do narcotics.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: That's my thing, right?
4:35
SPEAKER_00: Because I came from the street.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: So I am all my friends were rolling in the street, doing some really bad things with a growing up.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: I was in trouble as a young kid.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, I lost a lot of my friends, some of my family to addiction.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: So it started hitting me early on.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: So that was my passion.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: And I understood the street.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: I had no official training early in my career.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: I was afforded the opportunity to talk about motorcycles.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: I can't come to the rodeo because I drive rat bikes, whatever.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: If anybody doesn't know, Harley Davidson, those, you know, 70 choppers.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: So again, I came to work one night on my chopper, and actually it was my uncle's bike, and I borrowed it.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: And when I came, my chief found me and it was totally street illegal.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: And that just opened the door to my undercover world.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: So uh a couple of weeks after that, I did some low-hanging fruit, as they say, little uh buys infiltrated uh biker organization early on in the early 90s, and that was it.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Once the DEA got a hold of me, I started working operations for the DEA.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: I do think it's important to kind of hit on this for that and for those that grow up in challenging environments and that that run with uh, let's just call it what is the black sheep of their community, it makes you a better cop because if you're not friends with the enemies growing up and you understand the dynamics of what they world they live in, it makes you such a better cop.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily the ones that go to narcotics that end up being successful, but even the street cops understand the complexities and challenges of kind of what they deal with on a daily basis.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think you obviously you clearly understood that, and it made you a better police officer later on in life.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I it's a great point you make, Tyler.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: But I didn't understand it early.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: I understood it later in my career.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just wore all of my trauma as a badge, like I was taught to do.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: Again, Vietnam era was my father, Korean War veteran was my grandfather.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: Like I was taught you take all your trauma, you push it down.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: And I was taught you use all that, and I didn't have any formal training.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't until later, and even my unit that I when I retired with the FBI task force, even the FBI agent acknowledged, the FBI themselves acknowledged some of the best working guys they have in their undercover units, guys and girls, both are the people that come from the street, or the people come from those black sheep families or you know, those those hard knock history as a kid.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: That street mentality is what you can't teach that.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: You can't teach that it's distinct.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: We call it in my world, we call it distinct.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: When you have distinct guy, you know, when I walk in a room, I want you to either know I'm a I'm a biker, I'm a bad guy, I'm a gangster, I'm whatever, I'm a white supremacist, whatever I was infiltrating, and I've infiltrated it all, I've I've had a great career.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: You could turn it up and turn it on.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: But when you do harness it and you understand the powerful tool that you have, and you you're given the right tool and training, man, it's a gameplay.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And you had no jail experience, right?
7:08
SPEAKER_01: We talk about that a lot here on the podcast.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm well I'm talking about like being big working in corrections.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Here in Texas, a lot of our uh I call them the best training you can receive before you get into law enforcement is working inside the jails for those that you know just don't jump off and have the success stories like you've got where they just become a cop.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: But did you have any did you work in the jail at all?
7:25
SPEAKER_00: I didn't work in the jail.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Where I come from, we we collars for dollars.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: We arrested you, we put you, you know, we processed you, we dropped you off at the county.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: So, which was crazy because we had we had exposure to the yard because again, I'm dating myself.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: It was 35 years ago that you know that's my anniversary two days ago.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: It's 35 years I was sworn as a cop.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: So back then, you used to drive your square body Chevy and you drove it into the yard at the county, like at the county jail.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: And all the prisoners, they blew a whistle and they went against the well.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: You had your weapon on you.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: It was insane.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like you drove into the yard, you and your partner got out.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, you didn't drive it to a sally port, you went right into the yard.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: They yelled at him, they all went against the wall and all grades, all walks of life, and all kinds of criminals.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: And then you you processed your guy.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: You dropped him off.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: So the exposure I had was great because later on when I did murder for hires and I had to go into prison, I understood what a green room was, I understood what the holding rooms were, I understood the live, and I also had friends inside.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, my my family and friends were inside of prisons, so I knew commissary.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: You have to understand that whole culture.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: If you're a cop and you don't understand what it's like inside of jail, so those those guys that did work in the in corrections, man, they had a plethora of just knowledge and stuff they could bring to the street.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, and to your point, it's great because later on in my career, when I had to share with the bad guy and say, Yeah, I was locked up.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Like I knew where I did my time.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: So later on in my career, when I in the book, I write about it, but I I did time in prison.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: I had four personas, four different identities, maybe five at the end of my career.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Some of those guys were white-collar guys.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Other identities I had had done prison time.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Some one guy did time in Chesterfield, Virginia.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, you better know what Chesterfield looks like.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: You better know what their commissary looks like.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: You better know how to how to cool your food, you know, how to cool your drinks in the sink, how to do this, how to wash your clothes, how to you have to know the whole culture.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think it goes back to this is that you understood that as far as the culture of where you worked at.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: And I don't I I I think to the today American police officer, whether you're working in Virginia, Texas, Louisiana, wherever it is, I think they lose sight.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Is that you have to, and in order to police that community, you have to be a part of that community and understand that culture.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: And and I I'll I you know, I guess I'll just say this is that later on in my career, you know, you're you're wanting to make arrests young in your career, a little dime bag of marijuana, you know, all day long.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: A one or two year cops can arrest them, put them in jail.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you go ahead and flip that and then use that for later on for like investigations or whatever you want to do?
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Homicide investigate, a little dime bag of weed can get you in so many spots that you would not, you'd be you'd be shocked, right?
9:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's the culture.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think by by you understanding that early on in your career is what made you successful.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna hear some stories about those today.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: So let's get into the book, okay?
10:05
SPEAKER_02: Let's do that.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: Um I I want I want you to go ahead and just start, just kind of guess walk us through the book uh as far as we talked about how you just got you kind of got started into it.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: Um but actually diving into when you knew that this was this was gonna be a good a good run, you know, when you knew you were on track to take everybody pretty much down.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a good you know like I'm not a fisherman, I but I have fished, right?
10:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean I I I was born and raised in a city, but my parents got us out because I was a problem child, they didn't want us in the streets, so they would take us up to the Casco Mountains and I have outdoorsmen in me.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: Compare it to fishing, right?
10:52
SPEAKER_00: If there's any fishermen watching or listening, when you fish and you know a fish hits your hook or hits your bait in a certain way, you know it's on.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Fish on.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Dude, it's the same, it's crazy.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: But apply that to when we went somewhere and I walked in with the stink and I had to turn it up or down, I knew.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: I knew how bad you hit the hook and took my bait and how bad you were on that.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: And and I knew That's a great analogy.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you were locked in.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: Right?
11:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's a guy, and you apply it to anything.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Anything we talk about, and let me a little caveat, when we talk about this, any law enforcement that's watching or listening, I don't I don't want to hear like, well, I'll never do that deep cover on the cover, you know, the cover stuff, I'll never work narcotics on them.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: This is this applies across the board with law enforcement.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: Anything you do in this career, this anything you do in life, you know, dealing with other people, reading other people, it's all human life skills, right?
11:38
SPEAKER_00: So anytime you walk in, if you question a guy in a car stop and he has one dime bag of weed on him, right?
11:43
SPEAKER_00: He has a bag on him, he has a little bit of meth.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, by asking him that question, you know, you want to get in the car, you want to get in the trunk, you need your probable cause, and you ask him.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: And the minute you say, like, well, anything else in the car?
11:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's their body language, it's their shoulder drop, as they start sweating, all this.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: That's the things you're looking for.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: So we knew going in, especially this case, you knew when you sat with the guy for a few minutes, yeah, I got you.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: You're buying what I'm selling, yeah, you're you're listening to it.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Now it could be dangerous.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: I did some cartel work, and the cartels are, you know, just to use them as an example of any organized crime.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, if I turned it up too high, I could be very offensive.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm a dude, I'm a slick back from New Jersey, New York, I'm a gangster, I'm this, I'm that.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Early in my career, I was a biker, I was an outlaw biker.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: So I had hair down in my ass, I had the braids, I had the earrings, I had the chin, you know, the whole, the whole thing, and everything.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: I had the whole persona, I look like a hardcore outlaw biker.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: So you got to be careful with that because you could offend people.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And that will get you hurt.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: They'll rob you.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, gangbangers were not prevalent in New Jersey and and the East Coast.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: They were basically West Coast, and that whole Tupac biggie, you know, all that stuff was going on.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: But when they came over to the East Coast, I had to be real careful how it walked.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, no more dime dealers in the street.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: My guys are like, well, this is a long-haired dude.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: I just robbed this dude.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: He's got cash on him.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, but I think it's important to point this out.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Is that if and for those listening out there that that that's 22, 25, 26 years old, starting their career in law enforcement, I think that we oftentimes think, okay, UC work.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: UC work's maybe not what I want to do, but UC work at really at your time frame was new in a sense of this, was that w you guys kind of set the tone, and and quite and quite possibly is the reason why we don't have it to this day.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Y'all y'all kind of ruined it for us.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: But what you got to do, the abilities that you had, you know, you had, uh not many people moving forward in law enforcement within any part of the United States is gonna have that opportunity anymore.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: I I don't think.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know of deep UC work.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: Now it's kind of have CIs report, you know, and give your reports in.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Or am I am I wrong for thinking that?
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And and of course I got this from the book.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: And and the reason for that, Tyler is because what I figured out or what I could see is or understand more so is someone's that deep and undercover, yeah, not only their life, but their family life changes forever.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: Forever.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that is a human resource, you know, dilemma all day long.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: What do we do with them now?
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: What do we do with them now?
14:17
SPEAKER_02: And and you went through all that, you know, and one of the things I want to I want people to know is how you handled when you felt that somebody was on to you.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: How you reacted back to that person, especially when they were trying to call you out or they were fishing themselves.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: Suspected I was a cop or a rat.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: I'd rather be suspected I was a cop than be a rat, because they kill a rat before they kill a cop.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Right?
14:47
SPEAKER_00: So you had to be real careful.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I did, I I write about in a book that I got called out a few times because they suspected that I was being followed and brought heat to them.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: Not that necessarily that I was a cop, but just that I was a rat.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: That's the worst thing to ever be.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's an individual thing, right?
15:02
SPEAKER_00: We're trained.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: Much later in my career, I had training from the FBI, and then I had the the human intel, right?
15:08
SPEAKER_00: Human, all the human intelligence and the body language and the psychological components that were given to me.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: After I had those tools in my toolbox, that's a game changer, right?
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Early on, guys would say to me, Are you a rat?
15:21
SPEAKER_00: Are you a cop?
15:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, the typical if you're a cop, you gotta tell me you're a cop.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: And then you brush it off and go, Really, really stupid?
15:27
SPEAKER_00: That's what you're gonna say to me.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: And you gotta be careful because again, what I said before is if I tick this guy off, or I feel like, you know, oh, so you think you're smarter than me, Giovanni?
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: No, I'll just I'll just shoot you, you know?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: So you had to be real careful.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So it's the individuals, the the the dynamic that you're standing in.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: It's an individual individual choice how you respond to it.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: I would never be aggressive as an undercover, whether I was buying off a corner, like a corner boy, or if I was doing deep cover work.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: Deep cover work isn't really done much anymore because, like you said, social media, technology, all these things, face rec facial recognition, bios, that's hard to do, but it can still be done.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, old school undercover work can still be done, but how you react to it, it's all human interaction.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: It's the the uh the emotions, the tone of somebody's voice.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: You're I tell people all the time, you have to have not two cogs, you know, wheels going, you have to have multiple wheels spinning in your head.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: You're having a thought up front or what's Tyler gonna ask me next, where is this conversation going?
16:25
SPEAKER_00: How do I keep this conversation moving forward?
16:27
SPEAKER_00: But wait a minute, if Tyler takes a turn on me or Mike asks me a question, that's the other side of your brain that's working.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: It is exhausting.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely exhausting.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: This isn't just roll up on a bicycle, put a hat on backwards, grow a goatee, and then go buy some dope.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: That could be sometimes the most dangerous work you do too.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: But you really have to be invested in it.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Like anything you do related to this, anything you do in life, you want to be the best you can be, right?
16:49
SPEAKER_00: But law enforcement, there's so many chances of us losing our life in a split second, as we know, or as we all unfortunately see all the time nowadays.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: But again, it's this time of the culture, cultural divide that we have, cultural divide I had going through all these things I'm looking at.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: So when a dude comes to me, if he's got five guys behind him, Mike, and he goes, You're a rat, I'm not a rat, you know.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: And again, some of my friends have been stripped naked in a basement, you know.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: I recently talked to a good buddy of mine, Scotty Payne, big country, and he got by an outmo outload motorcycle group.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: He got brought downstairs, you know, but yeah, you know, and he was stripped down and they searched him for wires and everything.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: And at what point does law enforcement look at that like, okay, we need to move in or pull them out?
17:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it's an you know, it's kind of a risk.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a risk.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: You're talking when I first started, about half the size of this book was my device.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Nowadays, is you could put a you could put a microphone on a and an ant's ass, you know.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Like technologies are so much different now.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: So you had to be careful.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Back in the day, lots of times, there was nobody listening to what was going on.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they were.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, no, they should have been, right?
17:51
SPEAKER_00: So I'll give you an instance.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: For instance, my early days, I wore with the Kel, right?
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Like the recording devices.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: They were not everybody knows what a VHS tape is, but you know, the size of half the size of this book.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Now, where are you putting that?
18:02
SPEAKER_00: You're either going to put it in the front of your pants, the back of your pants, or you're gonna put it down in one of your boots or something.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: You had two wires.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: One was a white, of course they're gonna make it a white wire.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: Make why make it like another color?
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Why have a big bright wire?
18:13
SPEAKER_00: So one went up and it was a transmitter.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: That transmitter went to you guys, my backup team that was sitting down the street, and you had to have the rec line, right, of this building in order to pick me up while I'm having this live conversation with you.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: The other one was a microphone coming out of this side, and the microphones are a little bit thinner than these.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: So you had one coming up this side, and that was my microphone that was recording the conversation.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm dating myself, but you guys had a big suitcase.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: It was called Reel to Reel.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: It was either cassette tapes or the real-to-reel recorders.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's only held on my scotch tape or maybe some hospital tape, right?
18:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: Halfway through, the one wire, I was doing a gun deal and a dope deal, the wire fell out, and I just happened to see what is that by my leg?
18:52
SPEAKER_00: And it was my wire hanging out of my shirt, and it was the white wire just dangling.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, technology has changed over the years.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing what they could put stuff in now.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: But all these things, you had direct line, but where I come from, it's the concrete jungle.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: So your direct line of sight, chances are, as soon as I came into this building, you lost me.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's not like you can blow a whistle and call timeout.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: You can't call me on my cell phone.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: I had pagers back then.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, we had calling cards.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: They hit a payphone.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: We didn't have all this technology we had then.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: So you guys would sit out there and be like, oh.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: And I would work in some hardcore guys, uh, cops, and there's salty old guys in Vietnam, and like, oh well, you know, I'm going to get a coffee.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: He'll be fine.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: He'll be all right.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: If he needs something, and I used to say, Mike, I used to say, All right, if you guys, if I need you, just stay by the window, keep an eye on the front window.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll try to make my way and I'll pick something heavy up and throw it through the window if I can't.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, you had to have all these backup plans, like you still do operationally, but times have changed, but they haven't, right?
19:48
SPEAKER_00: Technology changes.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: I get a lot from the young generation today.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, time policing is different.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: We now have to wear body cameras and this and that.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Listen, you know, you create the environment, you paint the picture, you know, you're the artist on a car stop.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, you set the tone.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Just like you're walking into a whether it's the domestic violence, a car stop, or you know, an emotionally charged call that you're on, you set the tone.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: If you're not regulated and you're not calm, you know, everything's being recorded.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: Man, don't tell since the 90s I've been recording my work, you know?
20:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: Video and audio.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: So it's all what you bring to the table.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: What do you bring to the game?
20:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's gonna set the tone.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: So you have to have all this spinning in your mind when you go in.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: And I got to hope.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: If if shit hits the fan, I know you you guys are gonna come barging in.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: And it was crazy.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: We were old school.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: We were I I used to say to my guys when we in early narcotics days, please, all I ask, please, guys, just don't let my family sit through a trial.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: I could say that now because I'm retired, right?
20:47
SPEAKER_00: But right, I used to say, do not, Tyler, don't let my family sit through a trial.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: And he knew what I meant.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And they they were like, okay, you know, I'm not sure.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: And those listening understand too.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: They understand.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: What was the longest you were actually deep undercover where there was really no contact with family that you had to live and breathe and eat?
21:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the entire lifestyle.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: I'd say the longest was this the case with the mafia, that was the longest case I had.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I danced in both worlds.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: I came home, like he Mike touched on a little bit.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Um again, the book is the intro of my life into law enforcement, but then later on it's the cases I worked, but the mafia case was probably the longest and the most daunting and most tasking on my family.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: It it ruined my career.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: It ended literally ended my career.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the the longest I went was probably a year and a half, you know, in and out of my life and my family's life, which was crazy too.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Very much like law enforcement.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, when when again, you listen to my story about the undercover world, don't just say, well, I'll never work deep under.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: And I'll never go that deep, and I'll never be a narcotics guy, I'll never be this.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Apply it to your life.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Like I tell first responders today, when you're having when you're afforded the ability to work an extra job, and I gotta be away for doubles, that's my life.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: I was away for two nights, three nights, and then I kind of sneak home.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: You're doing the same thing.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: You can grab an extra shift, maybe you work in construction, maybe you have a business on a side, you know, you're cooking or something on a side, and well, babe, I'm just trying to make money, you know.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, hon, you know, I'm just trying to pay the bills, I'm trying to pay for our trip to to Disney World coming up next summer, you know.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: So you're the you're leaving your family behind, like I left my family behind.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: I did it for the good of the job.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: We're all doing it for the good of the job.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: You were fortunate in a case in the in the sense of that you had someone at home there towards you know, I think when you were on this last case, it understood the work.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: Because my wife was law enforcement.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I get that a lot, yeah.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: And then people go, well, it's great that you were married to a Leo, right?
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Law enforcement.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: She was a detective, she was a detective in New Jersey.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: And no, my work she worked undercover.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: When we met, she worked undercover, I worked undercover.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: I was inf I was investigating, infiltrating a cartel when we first met.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: I was DEA when we met.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: And uh no, that's the worst.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, because she knew the job, she knew my lies, she knew what I could say.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: She's like, listen.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: And again, I write about in a book.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: That's how this case, this Charlie horse case, started when I infiltrated the mafia.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: I was home on a Sunday, perfect example in great caveat.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm home on a Sunday working in my garage, jerking around.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: My buddy Nick calls me.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: He says, gee, what are you doing?
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: Sunday, I got a couple of guys, low-hanging fruit coming down.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: I got I'm gonna buy a half a key or a kilo of coke.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Wanna come down to Atlantic City and have dinner?
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Now, when my Uncle Sam pays for dinner, I eat good.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: My Uncle Sam with the government.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So I said, Well, yeah, let me see what's up.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I run inside, I say to my wife, hey, Nick needs me.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, I got to shoot down to AC.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Is it okay if I go have dinner?
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's about five, maybe three o'clock in the afternoon.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: She goes, What do you mean he needs you?
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Because she knows he doesn't need me because she's at Leo, right?
23:52
SPEAKER_00: And she goes, she doesn't, he doesn't need you.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: So I go, well, come on, just let me go down.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: He, you know, he needs me because he, you know, he's got some guys from Elizabeth, New Jersey, which is my old neighborhood in that area.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: I said, So I don't want him to do it alone.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: Let me go.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: She goes, Listen, I'm on call.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: She was working sex crimes at the time.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: She goes, I'm gonna call at midnight tonight.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: If you're not home, don't give me this BS that the targets ran late, this happened, that happened.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Because she knew she was she was buying dope too.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: So she said, if you're not home, don't don't come home.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I'll kill you, you know.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: So of course by 10 o'clock, the bad guys don't show up, cops wait, bad guys don't.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting there, I'm stressing.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: I am literally stressing.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: That's how I infiltrated the mafia.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: It was all by my wife telling me and threatening me not to be home, you know, do not be late.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh and by the time these bad guys walked in, I'm in there watching the Yankees and the Yankees are losing.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm a Yankee fan.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Oh man, you know, I can't.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: You're fixing to lose too.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm gonna lose.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: I ain't gonna have nowhere to go home to.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: So as when by the time the bad guys walked in, I was so, but again, it I played on it.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: I was still enrolled, I was still doing my job, but I used it.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: I used my emotions.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: And when by the time the bad guys walked in, I was like, I was the angry elf.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, they walked in, they're like, hey, sorry, we're late.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: This is Giovanni.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, get out of here.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: I want nothing to do with you now.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't even look at them, I wouldn't even make eye contact.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: And by me doing that, my buddy Nick knew what I was doing.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: He knew I wasn't unplugged, but he knew I was playing a part.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: They thought I was a gangster's gangster.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: They went back to the mob up in North Jersey and told we went down to Philly last night in Atlantic City, we had dinner with the Philly mafia guys and this and that.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: They painted a picture for these guys.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: That's how it started.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Just on a Coke deal.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: And all because my wife told me.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: So when you say my wife understood, no, my wife warned me when she found out I was infiltrating the mafia, all the stuff we did.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: I was I was DEA task force.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: I infiltrated a lot of things.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: But when I became FBI task force and we started doing that, she said, please stop doing this.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: She begged me, begged me.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: She said, Please stop doing this because you're going, this is not going to end well for us.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: She knew.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, she knew my drive, she knew my addiction, my addiction to adrenaline, which is like any other addiction, you know, adrenaline and the job could be an addiction as well.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: So I didn't want to hear it.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I I I kind of want to hit on that.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: I I was on the task force too at the Marshall Service, and it was a it was a great time, right?
26:10
SPEAKER_01: Some of the best moments of my law enforcement career was on that unit because of the brotherhood uh and and some of the cases that we work.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: But back to adrenaline, I chased the adrenaline over my family and the aspect of being a part of a special unit, right?
26:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think uh I struggled with that, and people don't really realize the struggle with adrenaline and the struggle to deal with adrenaline is just as bad as anybody dealing with a narcotic problem, an alcoholism issue, mental health.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: And I and it took me a while until I got out of it.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, went to work for TMPA full time to understand that dynamic.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: How long after your law enforcement career did you realize the impact that it had on you and your family?
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and and how did you deal with that?
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great, great topic.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: So, my adrenaline, I I didn't know it was such a bad addiction.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Just like drinking, just like using pills or over the counter or something, I didn't know it was out of control the way it was.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: I knew I did not know it until I retired, until I had to unplug and I had I had the DTs, I had like withdrawal.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: It was in control of you.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: It was absolutely in control of me.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: When they unplugged me, in this case, the the Charlie horse came to an end with the mafia.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Again, it ended horribly.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Much like when somebody hits their bottom.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: When you're drinking, or you know, your marriage is at the end of its rope.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: My marriage was at the end of its rope at the end of this case.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: It was the I swear to God, it was like adrenaline was the substance.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And it was horrible for me.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize how out of control I was.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: They unplugged me.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm sitting home.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm just, what do I do?
27:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm like a caged rat.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: I am like a caged animal sitting there.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: I can't sit here all day.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna do?
27:47
SPEAKER_00: And she's literally going, What are you doing?
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Like your kids are here.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: Play with your kids.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
27:51
SPEAKER_00: It's and it and it started hitting me maybe nine months after, no, and a few months after.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: And it was so bad that things bubbled over and some events happened in my house.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think I better wrote about it in a book.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: She punched me.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: My wife couldn't take it anymore.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: She's a law enforcement officer.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: She came over to me and came across the room and punched me right in the face.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: And that was my eye-opener.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Because not that second, she came over and said, What's the matter?
28:15
SPEAKER_00: If you miss your gangster friends, if you miss your girlfriends out in Vegas, go back to Vegas and live with them.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Get out of my house.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't want you here.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to tell the story because it's so emotional.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: But she came over, cracked me, but that was my awakening moment.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: And you know how I responded to it?
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Man, so good.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: That was my adrenaline.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: She hit me right here as hard as she could, almost broke her hand.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: And she's Sicilian and Nabaludan, so she's Italian, so she hit me hard.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: I sat there and absorbed that.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: I got, that's what I wanted.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: I wanted somebody just to hit me.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: I wanted, I wanted that.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: And that was a jolt of adrenaline for me.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: And then horrifically, she laid on the floor, called her mother because her father was a law enforcement officer who perished on 9-11.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: And her mom had gone through a lot of emotional stuff, so she called her mom to try to talk to her about it.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: As she's in fetal position, crying on the floor, I stepped over my own wife.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: I went upstairs, went to my bedroom, and napped.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Like I just ran a marathon.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Like I earned this nap.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: And I went upstairs, and the next morning I woke up and it hit me like a ton of bricks and realized how bad I was.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: On the next episode of Blue Grip Podcast.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And then I reached out to some friends in our program.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: We had what's called a safeguard program.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Every nine months I had to go for a mental health check.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: And they did that for us, but it was mostly because we were we were a tool in the toolbox to the federal government, so they did it.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: But it's the greatest tool we had because when I had a psychological services, I could talk to people.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: I realized how bad I was, and I reached out right there and said, listen, you know, I'm I hit my bottom.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: I was asked to come into this industry.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: I realized, wow, there's something here that's healing for me.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: I didn't do it selfishly, but I realized I fit into it.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: And there was a need for first responder programming.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: So I had gotten in and I I got into an uh a group of investors.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: that asked me to do something.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: And that kind of was the trajectory for the last six years of my service in that field.