Latest / Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast / Beyond Biohacking: The Future of Adaptive Medicine with Brett O'Brien and Darren Sassall

Transcript

Beyond Biohacking: The Future of Adaptive Medicine with Brett O'Brien and Darren Sassall · Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast

• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Music.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs, and I'm your host, andrew Whitfield-Cook.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Joining us today is Brett O'Brien and Darren Sassel, two naturopaths taking a new direction in adaptive medicine.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: That's what we'll be discussing today.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Welcome, brett and Darren.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: How are you both?
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Andrew.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us today.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Now let's first define what is adaptive medicine.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Darren, could I start with you here?
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, Andrew, For us it's really built off the back of, you know, Naturopathy 101.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: It's all root cause-based, but of recent times there's really been an explosion of you know tech advances and it's really providing, like in so many other industries, a really a real disruptive opportunity for naturopathy.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: And you know being sort of our bent uh, we like playing with toys and things in the clinic and um, uh, Brett's really got us onto this pretty early, um, so we're really uh, as well as your traditional uh base of naturopathic uh therapies, you know we we're drawing on emerging fields, you know, in biohacking, in functional diagnostics.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: You know the wearables are really you know many clients now are coming in with you know untapped data like on their wrists, and then we've got AI really coming to the fore and available to everybody now.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: So there's really a lot going on in the space and a lot of it's pretty well understood by prackeys.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: You know nootropics and nutrigenomics and diet and lifestyle and all that sort of core or key naturopathic tools.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: But then we've got stuff that's maybe not so quite well understood around hyperbarics and the use of these sort of things in wellness centres and clinics that are popping up.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: So there's PEM, Pulse, Electromagnetic Field devices, and there's hypothermia, and there's low-level laser therapies and intermittent hypoxic and hyperoxic therapies.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: There's all sorts of stuff coming around for people to choose and to assist in their health journeys, and our concept of adaptive medicine is looking to pull all of those things together into a coherent, usable form, if you like.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Britt, can I follow on with you?
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: So, darren, just mentioned this untapped data that we have at our fingertips or our wrists, and I totally agree with you.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: People are using it personally, but what you're doing is taking that data to help them, basically in a formed framework.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it's recording people when they come into the clinics, in very simple activities it might be.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: You know, we're using heart rate variability, we're using heart monitors, we're taking baselines, we're working out shifts.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: So I guess that's where the idea about adaptive medicine comes from, because what we could see is if people could adapt more efficiently, they tend to get better results.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: It gives that traction and momentum out of that chronic state.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: So I guess the key to it is, I guess the disease is that lack of adaptability.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: If we can use, you know, herbs, nutrition, devices to create a shift, even if it's an artificial shift, then the body then starts to relearn this capacity of adaptation.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what we're seeing just in, even with the data.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: We're seeing this as we're seeing people's symptoms improve.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: We're seeing that data, that adaptability improve alongside it, and that's been over the last 15 years.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, can I follow on with you then as well?
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: How is adaptive medicine different from, say, functional medicine?
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it was looking for a term that we could sort of redefine, I guess the biohacking model.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I guess you know we've been doing this for 15 years, pre the term biohacking.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: So we really wanted to show that there was a very functional way that this strategy, this biohacking, can be used, and to define it in a very clinical model.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: And so we were looking for what we were noticing with people's health and it wasn't a way that we thought the system was then creating plasticity.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: And so as we create more plasticity, we see the body's capacity to adapt and I guess that's what I guess the measurements are actually showing.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Where functional medicine, you're actually looking at what's out, what's not working, and supplementing or supporting that process, we're able to add in equipment, herbs, nutritionals, any device that we can use, and actually see this plasticity start to come back in to the framework for people.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: If you're not in a position of recovery, the body won't put any resources towards it.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: So what we're noticing is you may have all the best intention with the client and they may have trying all the devices and everything possible, but if the system can't allocate that as a resource, it doesn't tend to be effective.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I love the way that you guys talk about the framework, like if the system is in the system of the patient's resources, of like, and I'm not sort of saying that you're taking the personal personability out of it, but you're looking at it as a system so that you can address certain points along that framework.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting way to work.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Darren, can I ask you?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: You mentioned before hyperbaric and then hypoxic therapy as well.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: This is obviously a stressor to help the person cope with adaptation.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Can I ask you firstly to explain those, but also to go a little bit into how you assess whether a patient is able, ready, to cope with that stressor of hypoxia able, ready, to cope with that stress of hypoxia.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're very keen or big on measuring.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: We don't like to guess too much in the clinic.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: So part of the system that we've developed is looking at the person when they come in from the perspective of balance or homeostasis, more than just the pathology or the set of symptoms that they're coming in with.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: So we're looking and we're measuring urine and saliva and parameters from those and we utilize bioimpedance and we utilize microscopes.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: We do, you know there's a whole range of tests that you can go deep with with your different organic acid profiles and your genetic profiles and stool et cetera.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: So when people are coming in, we want to get a little snapshot or a fingerprint of who they are biochemically and that's giving us an assessment of how far from balance they are, if you like.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: So we know from the tools that we have what balance or homeostasis looks like and we're measuring clients when they're coming in.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: Against that you know how far from balance are they?
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: And then part of the clinical aspects or skills there is okay.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: Well, what do you need?
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: How much of it, how often, how long, to assist in moving them back to balance?
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: So more to your question there with the hyperbarics and the hypoxic training.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: Those two are very interesting assists where one, in the form of hyperbarics, will directly make available oxygen available to a cell if it's become, you know, unable to transport or utilize, so that mild pressure just allows oxygen, for example, to get to the mitochondria, so that then they can make energy, and then the cell's got half a chance of getting on with, you know, whatever it was supposed to be doing.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Um, the hypoxic training is a little bit different, where it's teaching the body how to utilize oxygen better.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: So one provides and one teaches so I love that.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: That simple there.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: But basically you're talking about, as you say, you know, provide and then teach.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: But with the teaching bit you're stressing, if you want to go right down to the biochemistry, you're stressing the mitochondria to become, to come back to aerobic metabolism from anaerobic metabolism.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it upregulates all the enzyme systems and things.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: Is that correct?
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it upregulates all the enzyme systems and things.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it assists.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: But so when we're assessing for individuals, that's sort of why we utilise both technologies.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: If the load we perceive would be too much using the hypoxic therapy, then we'll use the hyperbarics, you know, and to assist until we say, okay, well, given the set of data that we're looking at, yeah, now we think that you're in a position that the body can adapt to that stressor.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Right Brett, anything to add there, I guess?
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: yeah, again, it's about that adaptation and I guess what we're really looking at is always how we affect the mitochondria.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: So really you touched on that point and really what our science is is always focused on that mitochondrial capacity and how effective it's able to produce ATP and create the capacity to form energy potential.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: And then so really, when you're looking at hypoxic training, it's really trying to re-educate the system.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: So it's saying well, the nervous system in particular, you can exist with reduced oxygen and the nervous system can respond effectively.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: And then that has an overriding effect of creating this adaptive potential and right down to the cellular level, it's not just a physical, mental level.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Can I ask as well is this forgive me if I'm wrong, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this indeed what breathing techniques teach us that you know, like box breathing and things like that?
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Is that teaching us to handle a small level of you know we say hypoxia, hypercapnia or whatever, so that our bodies can adapt to that?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: happening or whatever, so that our bodies can adapt to that.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you look at what someone like Wim Hof is actually trying to explain, when he looks, when he teaches his theory or his practicality, he's actually saying this improves adaptability.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: So that's what it does.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: It allows your system to relax when it needs to relax and fire up when it needs to fire up, and have that adaptability when either one is needed.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: But as long as the brain and the body is you know, I guess it's at the whim of the mind then they're just responding to what they perceive as the risk.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: So the mind fantasizes, the brain, the body just responds if it's real, and then you can lock yourself into a system of survival.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: And so what you actually want to do is create some adaptability out of that.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Once you're in survival, all the resources will go into that survival capacity.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: It's not meant to last very long.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: It'll sacrifice all the work it's meant to be doing.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: So all the recovery work will be put on hold until the body and the brain knows that it's safe again.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: And then we know now in modern life that that's becoming much more difficult for the system to sort of self-regulate.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: And that's all that this breath work is actually doing the system to sort of self-regulate, and that's all that.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: This breath work is actually doing.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that you know, archaeologically, humans' main job was to survive and once you got over that it was like you know, go out, hunt, don't be eaten, come back and eat and rest and play and procreate, whatever.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Now we've got so many fingers in so many pies, stressors attacking us from so many points.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: You know not just emotional stress, but physical stressors.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: You've got, you know, the COVIDs and the RSVs and the.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: You know the seasonal infections, and then you've got the emotional stressors and then you've got pollutants and blah, blah, blah.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: So can I ask, how does this look, this adaptive medicine picture?
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: How does it look in the clinic?
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: To tease apart, what is the main assault on the patient facing you?
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: What are the main things throwing the system out of balance?
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: If you like, darren, how about I start with you again?
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks, andrew.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: That comes back to the set of diagnostics or screening tools that we use.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: So we're looking at, I guess, to make it real simple, you're looking at, okay, what are the inflammatory drivers?
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: If any, is that what predominates for people?
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Is it oxidative?
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Is it an immunological issue?
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: Is it detoxing?
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: Where's the block?
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: What's overwhelmed or under-resourced?
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And then if you're looking at the autonomic nervous, system.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: well then, we're using heart rate variability, we're measuring that, so that gives you a direct insight, and then we're going.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: So for the individual, who are they biochemically?
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: What resources do they have?
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: How do we, how can we help them to modify the load?
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: And then the tools that we have is all about assisting the body to move back towards balance where it's been pushed out yeah, brett continuing on yeah, it's a.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: It's a really simple naturopathic philosophy.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: We all know about homeostasis and so really what we're doing is the baselines are really just measuring how far someone is from homeostasis, and then it's like, okay, then what can we measure?
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Then, if we remove what we can measure, what we can see, then the body will self-regulate.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: So we're just reducing load.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: As Darren said, it's not looking for a diagnosis, and I guess this is what I guess is the great thing about naturopathy is we say we can't diagnose.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: But we don't have to because, based on homeostasis, all we need to do is reduce and remove roadblocks and the body will do itself.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: The system will do itself and it'll go into this recovery process.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: So we're looking for roadblocks.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: We might have a limited capacity, but if we can remove the roadblocks we can see, then the body will recover and that's what we see over and over again.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Some people need diet, lifestyle you know really simple indications.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Other people need really complex, you know, pieces of equipment and time and effort and money need to go into it.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: But we can measure that over time and we can provide that capacity to remove the roadblock.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: That's what we're really looking at.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: So take us through some of the conditions you treat.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, one thing that's just pinging in my head with this forgive me, the hyperbaric, hypoxic sort of therapy is long COVID.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: I have a picture in my head from this YouTuber.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: You know Diana Cohen, who's just been through the ringer with this condition, from such a vital human being teaching.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: You know her whole thing was about helping women, young girls, to explore science, and it was more than that she helped humans.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: But just to see what this poor woman has gone through is devastating.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking to me.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Can you take us through?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Forgive me for harping on about long COVID, but can you take us through, like an entry, an assessment and then a treatment phase, maybe with a patient or with that or a similar condition?
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Brett, could I start with you?
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: So we start off with our basic testing and then you know I guess we've got some really fascinating tools to measure with and I think when you're looking at blood you can actually start to see some of the drivers.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: You can see sort of what white blood cells are doing.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: You know that there's an upregulation of some of these systems.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: You can see inflammation.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: So we know inflammation is the biggest driver.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: If you can see it like un it and after seeing like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of clients around, you know potential long COVID or COVID impacts, then you can get to see what's actually happening.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: That's consistent.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And so again, you're identifying what you can see that's outside of homeostasis and you're working on removing that.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: So I guess the great thing that we were doing five years ago when we're looking at COVID is we could see this increased production of fibrin, and so we didn't know the science of what was happening, but we could see fibrin.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: We knew that was part of an inflammatory cascade.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: We knew that was generated from the you know, the liver because of viral load.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: If we remove that type of inflammation, what actually happens.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: And so then you get now for long COVID.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: You get the classic nataconazole, you know bromelain, turmeric, you know these are the classic kind of treatments, but we were seeing that and addressing that with our simple you know.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: We're seeing that and addressing that with our simple indicators five years ago.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And so really, again, it's just removing what we can see and seeing what those impacts are.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: And we're in a really lucky position just to be able to see this cascade of events that we could just see as naturopaths and we just had techniques to use, events that we could just see as naturopaths and we just had techniques to use.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: And we know now that the protocol that we were using five years ago is the standardized protocol today.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: But we could only see it because we were just from a naturopath's point of view, because we're removing roadblocks, really simple right, but you're also capturing the data so that they um anonymously, so that you can then say, okay, this therapy works and that therapy doesn't.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Is that right?
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so each client we're measuring again and again over time.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: So we're not just saying, okay, this is what we're going to do.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: We're going to, you know, some clients we might measure weekly, daily, fortnightly, monthly, depending on how much data we need to capture, and so we're using again maybe one or many of these baseline tests.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So before when they first come in, we're measuring baseline what do they look like before they go under treatment?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Then what happens if they have treatment for a week?
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Do we see any change in that?
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: If they go for a fortnight, do we see any change in that?
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Do they month six months?
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: You know we go for years now.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: So we've got data right back to 2012, 2011.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: So we can get a client coming in and we can look at them, we can compare their data to when they're, you know, 2012.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: So we can look at this progression over time and strategize.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: So it's just measuring the data and if the data improves, then we know we're on the right track.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: If it doesn't, then why not?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Then that's when we start.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: That intuitive mind is kind of like okay, what do we need?
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: What does this person need to help them get over the line, to get that traction and momentum to actually start to see these parameters start to shift.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: And then that's where this consistent measuring actually occurs and that's, I guess, when we develop the confidence to know that the strategies that we're using are actually effective, because we see it in multiple cases, not just singular cases, and we can compare that data.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Darren, this is going to be a bit of a list.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you, but can you run off a few of the types of conditions that you've seen in clinic that have most benefited from this approach?
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Well, I guess we, where we're looking at the individual and their presentation and what they bring, we're not so interested in the label, so we'll treat all comers, if you like.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: So how we sort of got to this position a bit of background for us and why we sort of moved in the direction we had is because we were finding for some clients that, if you like, were having catastrophic problems with self-regulation, how the tools that we were traditionally working with weren't getting us that traction and momentum.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: We weren't getting them back, we couldn't shift them in that or couldn't assist in shifting.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: So we went looking for other tools and that's where we started to adapt.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: You know, pulsed electromagnetic field therapies and the hyperbarics and the hypothermia and different ways of helping, you know, initiate change for people.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: And you know we can see, and it's well understood that if you can't get something in and out of a cell, well, you can provide whatever you like.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: But if the body's not signalling, or it can't transport, or it can't absorb, or it can't eliminate toxins, or you know there's some other barrier, or it's otherwise occupied thinking it's needing to, you know, fight a tiger or you know, on the battlefield somewhere, unless you're having them come back to a position of ease and the autonomic nervous system is signaling the rest repair, recover, digest hormones, neurotransmitters, immune function, et cetera then you can have the best of everything or the best of anything, but the body's not using it.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: So many of the tools we're covering, based on client need and what we can see and measure for them, is it a cell transport issue?
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: Is it a?
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: And if it is, well, what's?
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: Why is that?
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Is it inflammatory?
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Is it oxidative?
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: You know, is it a?
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Is it a toxin load?
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Is it an endotoxin?
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: What's going on for that person?
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: So, without needing or looking for a diagnosis or a label which is a descriptor, obviously we're trying to.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: We unpack that, we're trying to reverse engineer the process for people.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Right, I've got to say I love the words you used, the initiate change, because we all want change for our patients to move away from a disease model to a wellness model, but compliance is the big, you know, elephant in the room that we don't like to address, and I think your approach seems to basically passive isn't the right word, but it's almost like a nudge to help initiate that change using these machines and things like that, the therapies like hyperbaric versus hypoxic.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Darren and Brett, you have both embraced artificial intelligence, ai, and we often think about AI, about you know, being useful for writing a story and helping us with you know a framework for an article we might want to write, or something like that.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: There have been issues that have been pulled out from AI, though, about being able to trick AI.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: For instance, if it takes two hours to dry two towels, how many hours does it take to dry four towels?
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: And the AI will say four hours, but you're not using it in that way, I understand.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Can you take us through, brett?
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Could you take us through how you're using AI to benefit your patients?
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: What sort of data are you collecting?
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: What are you coming up with?
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess we're in that unique position that really early on we decided to keep all our data, and so the unique then position we're in is that one day it'll be useful.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: We don't know how that's going to look, and now we've got something called AI and so we put that data through this system and really it's just a chip that has greater capacity to sort through information, and then we can bring much more clear indicators about what's happening.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: So the problem is is that all our tests and our equipment don't actually talk with each other.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: They're all very separate, kind of individual tests and individual processes.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: But what happens when you bring those all together and then there's an individual way to pull the information and to categorize it for an individual.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: So AI for us.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: And firstly, the beautiful thing about the AI that we're going to be using is it's a closed system, so it's not accessing, at this point, a massive, you know database.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: It's not accessing Google.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: It's actually accessing the information within the clinic and it's bringing up far better results, and that will then increase.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: So then we have more practitioners using the same system, and so we're all sharing the data.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: So you might have someone that's you know, an individual practitioner using the system and they're accessing a clinic that's on a larger scale or an integrative practice using the same the system and they're accessing a clinic that's on a larger scale or an integrative practice using the same technology and they're able to access the same information or database that we can and bring in that information much more holistic as far as the data that we're choosing.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: So it'll bring in pathology and it'll bring in functional testing and it'll bring in the values of equipment and it'll bring in the client's individual information that they're recording.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: They can punch in their data around what they're eating and it'll start to then organise the information to produce best outcomes, and I guess that's what we're all looking for.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Is this outcome-based sort of treatment strategy?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that Outcome-based rather than treatment-based.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I also am very reassured by the way that it's a closed system, so that it's this true anonymity for the patient data and patient protection.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: So I love that.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: But how then, is the invitation going to be to other practitioners?
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: How are you going to maintain a closed system with that?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess what you've got is a provider who's providing that AI technology, providing that AI technology, and then they can add data in so they can then input information so they may put in a later study, so there may be new findings and they have been clarified and that'll go into the system.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Again, it's about the practitioner's discretion as well, so it's a guide.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: You're not taking the practitioner out of the decision making.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: You're actually bringing a much more coherent system together to work out strategies, primarily for the client.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: So you're looking for outcomes for the client, so the system won't be like a closed door process.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: It's actually being able to screen it, so it's not accessing the World Wide Web to work out solutions.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: It's actually looking able to screen it, so it's not accessing the World Wide Web to work out solutions.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: It's actually looking at the participants working out solutions, adding information that's relevant and then having that in the mix.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: That information, you know, may change over time, we'll see.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: So it's dynamic.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: It's not two-dimensional, it's actually three-dimensional.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: So it's much more kind of like a world-wide that you can access, rather than this kind of flat screen kind of dashboard kind of idea.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: It's much more dynamic for the practitioner and for the client as far as how they can use it and interface with it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Darren, I need to ask you.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: So this has obviously got to do with data capture, and you've obviously done that from the very get-go to capture, and you've obviously done that from the very get-go.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: But when we're doing that and then you're transferring it over to an AI system, who has to do the legwork with regards to data transfer?
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Or is it something that just draws?
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Or do you guys just sit there typing all night?
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Thankfully, not Thankfully not the team that's sort of behind the development of the AI platform.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: They've been deep into it.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: You know they're affiliated with one of the universities in New South Wales and the guys that are in the background have been deep into it with Amazon.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: I believe, if I think that's right, or Google was one of them.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: So they're bringing a wealth of experience and knowledge of how to frame it all but then bringing it to and applying it for a holistic medicine model.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm just great and keen using it.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I don't know how they put it together in the background, I don't know how the phone works, I just use it.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: But with regards to you using that data to help your patients, like what springs out at you, how is it presented to you so that you can then go?
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: This is our direction of therapy.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, so myself and Brett and practitioners you know we've been around for a little while.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: You know, previously we've had to do it.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Bring in 25 years of you know, knowledge and expertise on.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: You know, know we can read a genetic profile.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: We can read omics, we can do geomaps, we you know, but new practitioners don't, and you um functional practitioners to the space don't have that experience.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: And so it's being able at your fingertips to bring hints or guides, or what does all this information mean?
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Because your clients are bringing in folders full of data that they've collected over the years, and if this is already in the system, it's been uploaded, and the tool of the system can read that for you.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: It can extract what you need from it, based on when we're looking at.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Well, you know the blocks and the resources, and so is it inflammatory?
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Is it oxidating?
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: Is it detoxing?
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Is it all a detox?
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: You know, is it all?
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: And it's helping to rapidly and accurately pull together that data, and then it's just at your fingertips, brett, anything to follow on from there.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: So it's really looking at again, creating that baseline and then seeing it shift and seeing if it's shifting in the right direction based on the information that's being provided.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: We're getting clients that are all individuals.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: They'll all bring that uniqueness into their profiling and it's just collaborating with multiple different sources to really narrow the strategy down.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: So it's, as Darren was saying, like there's a lot of work that goes into thinking about a client and how to navigate for them.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: So I describe really what we do now is we manage people's health.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Once upon a time we had all the information you can get the information, information, not a problem about any kind of disorder.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: It's how you manage that.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: So how do you get from a person who's at point A and getting them to point B?
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: And then what this does is it allows that transition, it allows that journey, it allows for better road mapping, it allows for better signaling to get to that ideal map for that particular client, and that data will allow people to just navigate more effectively.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Don't forget, we've got the client, who has access to this the whole time.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: So it's not a closed system just for practitioners, it's an interaction between the practitioner and the client, and so there's these discussions that will go ahead talking about well, what about this way?
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I can see this Well.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: How about if I change that Well, in actual fact?
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I can see this well.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: How about if I change that?
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Well, in actual fact, you can see.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Then, when there was a drop, I actually didn't eat all day and so, therefore, you see, these sort of stress response may hate my hrv shoot through the roof.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: So, for me, one of the indicators maybe I need to eat a little bit more regularly.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: These are things that they're learning, that they're learning that roadmap as well, along with the practitioner.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: So it's an integrated system between the two.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Beautiful.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: And what's the end game to this approach, this adaptive medicine approach?
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Brett, I'll start with you.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I guess we're.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: For some reason.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: We've constantly been thrown into this.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: In actual fact, we're not geeky, we don't like machines and we don't like gadgets True, but each step that we go we see necessity for the client.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: So we're always driven by what the client needs and what I guess our industry needs as a whole to be much more efficient in what we actually do.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: And the end game is always to shake that client's hand when they say thank you very much, and that's where the reward is, when you get people to the destination that they're looking for.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: That's the end goal.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: So all we do is providing roadmaps for people and really having that handshake.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: There's nothing better than someone saying thank you very much, and that's really the end goal.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: It's really quite simple.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Darren anything to add?
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's a joy and it's why, you know, myself and Brett do what we do.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: You know we like to think we're useful in some way.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: So we've just found ourselves being pushed and challenged with the clients that have been coming to see us.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Well, how do we facilitate this for you?
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: And we come to a roadblock and we go, oh, how do we get around it?
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: And it's been a steep learning curve for us and it's continuing.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: You know, this AI stuff's a really steep learning curve, but we've managed to.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: You know, have some really clever people and some fantastic people come into our orbit and assist us to pull it all together, sisters, to pull it all together, and we think it's.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: You know, we're sort of flying a little bit, you know, outside our comfort zone at some time, but we keep getting reinforced and we keep getting yeah, keep going boys.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: So, while we're still getting outcomes, which is the end goal for us, all then we're happy to continue while everyone's happy with us.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Darren Cecil and Brett O'Brien.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for sharing.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I'm getting that this is the tip of the iceberg for what you guys do.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: But thank you so much for sharing a little bit of adaptive medicine and your approach, because I've got to say I love this, what you're saying.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: You know initiating change and it's all for outcome.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: It's not about input, it's all about at the end you want them to shake your hand and say thank you and that to me is sacrosanct the patient care.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: I thank you so much for taking us through this model of adaptive medicine and how you function in this space.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today on Wellness of adaptive medicine and how you function in this space.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today on Wellness by Designs.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Wonderful Thanks, Andrew.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: And thank you everyone for joining us.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Remember you can catch up on this and the other podcasts on the Designs for Health website.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs.