Latest / Identity at the Center / #176 - Authenticate 2022: Voice Is The Future with John Poirier

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#176 - Authenticate 2022: Voice Is The Future with John Poirier · Identity at the Center

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You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is
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the show that talks about identity and access management
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and making sure you know who has access to what let's get
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started. Welcome to the identity of the
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center podcast I'm Jeff. And that's Jim.
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Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself.
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I'm doing great. We are broadcasting from the
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podcast room or podcast Nook. Here at the authenticate, 2022
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conference, gotta send a shout-out to and Russia are for
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giving us this room and giving us the special attention.
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I think we're the only podcast who are podcasting from the
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conference and been a fantastic conference so far.
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Yeah. Very much appreciated for sure.
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I unfortunately, missed most of the first day dealing with
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absolutely horrible allergies, but I am returned mostly been
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ban back to the land of the living.
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So but definitely appreciate Andrew and the team here.
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Adrian for for hooking, us up, it's very cool.
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You didn't realize how lucky you were to live.
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Was somewhere that had very few trees.
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Now, you live somewhere that surrounded by trees and you went
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to visit somewhere we're just as many trees.
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So yeah. I think that's probably what's
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what's causing you You problems and I'm sure like six or seven
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errors and a high-pressure environment flying over the u.s.
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you know, from east coast to West Coast.
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I'm sure that didn't, you know, heard it all for sure.
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Yeah but this conference has been great sat through
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basically. I think what was the business
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track yesterday? Heard several stories from like
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Salesforce USA, a city on them rolling out fine to
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authentication to their customer bases and just Kind of the
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Lessons Learned super valuable feedback because hopefully the
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folks who are practitioners here at the conference can avoid some
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of those mistakes, right? But I think the takeaway that I
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had was just the level at which Fido authentication is being
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rolled out on the customer level you know over the past year or
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two like how many real implementations of taking place
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and You know how many organizations are pushing for
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like 100% adoption of Fido authentication, you know,
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hundreds of thousands millions of users.
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It's real. It's very frightening to think
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that everyone's been talking about for like years it seems
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like it's taken to get here is we're here now they're only
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there isn't any excuses as to why people can't start to go
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down this path of password lists and things like web often,
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obviously getting all the big vendors and like Google
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Microsoft. Apple cetera, right?
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All the browsers on board was a huge moment earlier this year.
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And we talked with Andrew about that, I think, you know, several
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months back about it. But it's here.
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Like there is literally no more excuses other than budget
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funding, right? The will to do it like those
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sorts of things. You know, one of the things that
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I also saw in the presentations yesterday was that there's kind
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of like a vulnerability or at least a willingness to not try
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to say, Like hey, we did everything in a went perfectly
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and we didn't run into any issues.
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It's kind of like here are the issues that we ran into and the
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things that you should look to avoid.
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And here's how we found to solve those issues.
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So it was like a lot of reality involved.
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I mean, you know, even though the technology is fantastic,
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that doesn't mean that, you know, the rollouts are going to
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be without you. No bumps in the road.
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Yeah, nothing's perfect. But I think if you're willing to
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get smarter and learn the lessons of Past.
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That's why a conference like, this is so great, I think,
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because we're hearing a lot of case studies, a lot of people in
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the real world doing this and getting it rolled out.
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And I think that's where I think a lot of values that is you're
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not just, you know, talking to like a marketing person or
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vendor. Here's how we do it.
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You're hearing from except people in the real world
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practitioners who are rolling the stuff out and they are been
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they've been very cool about explaining how they did it.
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What were some of the wrinkles that they faced, you know, how
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they got past may be certain In issues, things like that.
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So definitely kudos to sort of the content team putting this
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together because it's been very valuable valuable.
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So far, I'm really looking forward to is session.
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That is going to take place tomorrow with our, Our Guest
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right now from CVS l. So why don't you introduce them?
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Yeah, his name is John Porter, he's the lead director for CVS
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Health. Welcome to the show.
4:47
Thanks Guy. Thanks for thanks very much for
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having me. Yeah, thanks for taking the time
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and you're given a talk tomorrow.
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We're going to talk about that in a But we have tradition, come
4:56
on the show. First time is like to find out
4:58
more about the background, the identity origin story.
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So to speak of the folks who join us.
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I guess for folks who aren't familiar with John employer.
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You know, how did you get into the identity space?
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Is this something that you chose, or did it choose you?
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I'm gonna have to say that identity absolutely chose me.
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I was actually in the telephony space for a long time doing
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voice recording and things like that on the in the contact
5:21
center. And at one point, Point RC so
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came to the telephony organization looking for
5:27
somebody. I wound up being that person and
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and went over into the security side.
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If you will bringing telephony knowledge into the security
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Arena, that's pretty unique because you don't normally see,
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I think at least that that telephony side of things, right?
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It's been there for so long. It's like, okay, well, how are
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we going to leverage? You know, the skill sets and the
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knowledge we've gained through the telephony side into
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information security, it seems like a natural fit about - I
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don't see Happen as often these days, which is very cool.
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So I guess what were some of the original sort of issues that you
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were, you know, tackling from a, from an info sector identity
6:04
standpoint. It's really all about this
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conference, right? It's the identity and the
6:09
authentication piece. I think your guests last a
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couple of podcasts ago. I was talking about is like, we
6:15
draw the line at authorization, right?
6:17
So we've always had that line that we're on the left side of
6:20
that line, we're going to do the identity, and then we're going
6:22
to do the Authentication. And and then we throw it over to
6:25
the app to do the authorization. So that's where our teams at our
6:29
Mantra is to kill the password. But Ironically in a call center
6:34
setting, you've never had a password on the phone and so
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those are some of the challenges that we look to to solve is the
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you don't have the traditional identity Solutions.
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When you're on a phone, there is a talk that you're giving
6:48
tomorrow. I believe that Jim referenced
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the forgotten, how we all started with the Are then forgot
6:55
to secure it properly. I guess.
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Can you give us a preview for the folks that are, you know, I
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don't want you to, I don't want you to like, give it away now
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because my plan is to get this edited and ready for tomorrow
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morning. But you know, what is a preview
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of that folks can expect on that?
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Absolutely, one of the things is the As we're at this conference,
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we're listening to all the different solutions that are out
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there and we're talking about web and mobile and in-person
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interactions with your identity. You don't, you don't have those
7:26
capabilities on the phone. So you have to come up with
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different ways to identify somebody on the phone, you have
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to actually come up with a different way to authenticate
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them and and how do you do that in a secure method?
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It's so here, I don't know that I'm teaching per se, but just
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kind of enlightening and bring Something to the Forefront that
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maybe people just fight all-conference, haven't thought
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about where so ingrained and oh we're going to use our thumb
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print. Okay, great what, but how do I
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get a thumb print on a phone call?
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That's it's not easy. And so we have to really think
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about it and even, even some of the other Biometrics that we
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would, I mean obviously voice would be something that you
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would, you would go to, but that's not going to be
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foolproof. And so it's funny to listen to
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All of the conversations here, all of the solutions when
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Everything goes awry is its they're going to wind up calling
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back into the contact center and it's so we've forgotten the
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contact center and it's not as secure as it should be.
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Social engineering is it's everywhere and we really need to
8:30
tighten up the contact center because as we tighten up, the
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other areas contact centers were the hackers and the social
8:35
Engineers are going to head to Jim.
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I know you and I have a special place in our hearts and learn
8:40
our day jobs where this is an area that we see.
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A lot of organizations struggle with is, how do you validate
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people calling into context on our help desk, whatever that
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that real human being is to validate their identity.
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I know this is a challenge a little that a lot of
8:55
organizations that face, but what are your thoughts on it?
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Yeah, I've got to think that just like on the web, there are
9:01
there's context to somebody calling in the calling in, from
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a certain number. Maybe they're calling in at a,
9:08
at a time that, you know, is normal for when they were
9:12
calling or Not normal and then there's the voice unique
9:16
fingerprint. I think there's a couple things
9:19
that are right. One is you know, my
9:21
understanding of the voice fingerprint is, you know, it's
9:25
going to be a Big Blob of data. So you can't just generally say,
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hey, I'm going to search my database, based on your voice
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and find you. You have to kind of like use the
9:35
The Voice print almost like a password, but I wanted to kind
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of Bounce some of that back to On to talk to us, a little bit
9:45
about how ivr might work as an authentication tool.
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Alright? So in the cost center, right?
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That's the first place that most people get to talk to write
9:57
your, you get to get to the ivr and traditionally those
10:01
self-service options have been very limited because compliance
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or maybe, security, or even legal won't let you do certain
10:10
things in the in the ivr. Because You haven't
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authenticated that person or I would say the opposite as well.
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Like they think they've done a great job authenticating just
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because they've got three something you knows and if I
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take the five something you know is now I'm more secure because I
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know my mother's maiden name. I know the first car that I
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drove and I know the color, you know, whatever, whatever those
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things are you know, your your favorite food.
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Oh, by the way, the hint is it's a triangle, it's all something
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you know. So it's Not really satisfying,
10:44
all three pillars of authentication and and it's
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funny that I know my team will laugh when they hear this.
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But it's, it's my quote, it's something you have something,
10:54
you know, and something you are. And you have to satisfy all
10:57
three of those to get an authentication complete, and the
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challenge in the phone spaces. Again, getting all three of
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those. Yeah, I have experience of doing
11:10
this. And the one that comes to my
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mind is my Bank has completely switched over if you call their
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call center. Now they sit they make you say,
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my voice is my password and I guess kind of what I assume is
11:24
happening is that they already know that.
11:27
You know, this person is coming in and claiming to be Jim
11:30
McDonald. Now we're going to check you
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know quote-unquote the secret which is does that voice for an
11:37
actually match Jim McDonald, right?
11:40
I mean they're not just generally saying you know My
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voice is my password. Now let's search are 10 million
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customers to see who this is, right?
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So that's the first thing you do on the way.
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And the only thing you really have on the way into a phone
11:54
call is going to be your Annie your automatic number
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identifies. Our AKA your caller ID so that
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comes up and we're going to have to do our best job of what we
12:04
call a nanny look up. So I've got a customer database,
12:07
I'm going to go through the customer database, take a look
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and say, oh, you know, who? I think this might be, this
12:12
might be gem on us. Cell phone.
12:13
So we give that a test and if you are using the voice
12:17
biometric, you would take that utterance.
12:18
We got to get you to talk and most people's experience in the
12:22
ivr is representative representative.
12:27
The ironic part of that is they're talking, those are
12:30
utterances, I can absolutely take a nanny.
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Look up, take that representative and and try to do
12:36
a voice match. I might already have you
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authenticated just because you're yelling at my ivr.
12:43
And we're going to go now, I'm going to open up all the
12:45
self-service options for you. Not just hey would you like us
12:50
to mail you an ID card? And you know, it's Karen calling
12:53
us again, right? Yeah, exactly carry.
12:56
Yeah. And then she can be
12:57
authenticated as well. And that's, that's, that's the
13:00
cool thing about the boys princes.
13:01
They are unique, but they are a key value pair, like you said,
13:04
so you have to do that identification piece up front
13:07
before, you can actually go ahead and utilize any
13:11
identifier. Whether it be password, whether
13:14
it be your one-time passcode, your your favorite pizza, or
13:18
your voice biometric? I don't know if you know the
13:20
answer to this but what happens when somebody has a cold, right?
13:24
And they just have that froggy voice and doesn't sound like
13:27
them. I mean you probably run into
13:29
scenarios like that, right? Does the ivr adjust for that or
13:33
do you have to have a plan B to authenticate the person?
13:36
Well, the the ivr is the device that is actually doing a lot of
13:41
the work. It's the technology behind I
13:43
know there's a few vendors out there that do a great job in
13:46
the, in the voice space. They'll tell you that they're
13:49
building the voiceprint based on a number of attributes that are
13:56
basically not going to change like your the length of your
14:00
nasal passage the the size. How open you open your mouth?
14:05
I think they're going. Transient characteristics.
14:07
Renzi was right. There you go.
14:09
All those transient characteristics.
14:11
Are that make up your voice print.
14:12
So even If you do have a cold those aren't going to change and
14:15
so the voiceprint stayed pretty consistent and we can
14:18
authenticate based on you know whether you have a cold or not
14:21
but your voice does age over time and there's a there's a
14:26
thought and we're not deep enough into this technology, but
14:28
we think we have to enhance those voice prints as they age.
14:32
Moving on, this ring is almost like training your training a
14:35
voice model, basically, right, correct.
14:37
So to get to the step of you know authentication you have to
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have gone through an enrollment That's right to get people to do
14:44
that and it's funny. Jim you mentioned you don't you
14:46
know my voice is my password that must be like a stock thing
14:50
that like every voice recognition company uses because
14:53
I'm ever doing this in the mid-2000s was rolling out an ivr
14:56
for automated password resets and it was the same thing.
14:59
It was at someone. So my voice is my password and
15:03
that captured the you know, the voiceprint and it worked very
15:06
well and so forth, but the challenge was actually getting
15:09
people to enroll in this. I'm curious.
15:12
John if you've Tackled this, if you solve this somehow for
15:15
people, I will say that there's there's two two sides of the
15:19
street on that, right? So as far as the enrollment and
15:23
the consent, there's there's laws that the gramm-leach-bliley
15:30
ACT actually allows you to, I don't want to use the word
15:34
ignore but the state laws are limiting to certain and
15:39
financial institutions are certainly one of those that are
15:41
protected by What we call gleba. So you don't have to have the
15:46
consent but to have that consent model to have that trust which I
15:49
think is super important in a relationship with your
15:52
customers. You have that trust you, if you
15:54
establish that trust and you have a consent driven model
15:58
where they do actively enroll then then they know what they're
16:03
doing. They're actively putting
16:05
themselves in a situation where we're trying to protect.
16:07
I mean that's the reason we have passwords, that's the reason we
16:10
had we would go through all these steps the identity, the
16:13
Authentication is we want to protect which we're protecting
16:15
something whether it's legally that we have to through HIPAA or
16:20
PCI compliance or whatever the legal reason is or just the the
16:25
social reason or the fact that you do want to protect your
16:29
customers information. So yeah we have discussed that
16:33
quite a bit and you can go either way on it right at the
16:39
end of the day, we're trying to do the right thing, protect the
16:42
customers and Nation and then you kind of up into it though,
16:46
right? I think there's always the path
16:47
where, you know, where do you want it?
16:50
What level of support are you willing to sacrifice some level
16:53
of privacy to obtain? So if you want to take advantage
16:58
of the self-service on an ivr for example to be able to do
17:01
that, you need to provide your voice print.
17:04
If you want to log into your iPhone with just a fingerprint,
17:07
you are sacrificing your fingerprint in the name of
17:11
security and usability and Cetera, though.
17:13
Those sorts of things, I think that's probably where things
17:15
we're heading is. Okay, well, what is what level
17:18
of privacy or piece of data. Are you willing to maybe
17:21
sacrifices in the right word? But I'll allow another
17:25
organization. Whether it's your bank, or
17:28
health care, or college education, or even just your
17:31
employer to be able to leverage some of these other cat and Cat
17:36
buildings. That would imagine.
17:37
You have this ivr system in place, not everyone funnels
17:40
through that thing. There's always still some
17:42
percentage of the population. Elation that, for whatever
17:44
reason, doesn't go through that either it didn't work for them
17:47
or they refuse to sign up or they just don't trust it right
17:51
now. Whatever may be right and
17:53
they're like, you know, representative represent.
17:55
If they don't care, right? They just want to go right to a
17:57
human because they've had a poor experience, maybe before.
18:01
And now you're you're fighting not only, you know, this, this
18:05
experience that person might have had in the past.
18:07
But also how do you get them to take advantage of the newer
18:10
technologies that better? Maybe it is a better experience.
18:13
Since now compared to what they had before, you know, that could
18:16
be something to think about. Yeah.
18:18
Absolutely. And those you know we've always
18:20
had that IV our message, right? That and it's evolved over the
18:23
years. It started off as your call, may
18:26
be recorded for quality purposes and then it evolved into your
18:31
call, may be monitored and recorded and then all of a
18:35
sudden your call will be monitored and recorded.
18:38
And so it's been an evolution. And we've taken the next step
18:42
that your All will be monitored and recorded for quality and
18:46
security purposes. So we're we're we're taking the
18:49
right steps as far as our consumers are concerned.
18:52
But I'm going to say that the consumers aren't always the most
18:58
aware of what's going on in the industry.
19:00
And I think at this conference is an absolute eye-opening event
19:04
for what's actually happening in the, in the in the real world if
19:08
you will the SMS that. I mean, it's a you can't even
19:11
use SMS anymore as a man. Multi-factor authentication.
19:14
The, the in-app experience. You can't trust the consumer
19:17
because they're just pushing. Yes, that was me.
19:19
Yes, yes, yes. Make this little box go away.
19:22
So, MFA fatigue, I think is what you're talking about, if a
19:25
fatigue. Absolutely.
19:26
And that's been attributed to some of the the recent hacks
19:30
that some of the big ones that people are gaining access to
19:34
these systems because of MFA fatigue.
19:36
And the I'll just say that it's whether they're distracted or
19:42
whatever. The Whatever.
19:43
The reason of the excuses people saying, yeah go ahead and then
19:48
you've seen credentials, get synchronized because you're in a
19:52
certain browser and all of a sudden that synchronize you've
19:56
just given that person everything you need or you know
19:59
I'll throw a personal example and there just happened to me
20:03
last week and I have been a security professional out for a
20:08
while. I've been in the industry for
20:10
quite some time and and I've Got my different passwords, right?
20:14
We've all started with passwords like it was said that was 1961
20:18
passwords got invented so where I've grown up on passwords and I
20:22
have my different levels My Level 0 password is super simple
20:25
it's probably on. I've been have I been poned.
20:29
Yeah, it's absolutely up there. I've checked it but it's things
20:35
that I don't care about, it's those applications that I really
20:37
don't care about. So I put that out there and I
20:41
didn't think I cared about Form, but my Jersey Mike's account got
20:45
hacked last week. No, and I yelled at, my boys are
20:48
all, they're all home on the fall.
20:50
Break was just me. I was just making sure I got my
20:52
Philly cheesesteaks. So well, that the funny thing is
20:54
I said, well, who ordered, uh, order to Jersey Mike's on my
20:58
account, though. It wasn't me, it wasn't me.
20:59
I'm like, wait a minute, that's in Jacksonville, Florida for a
21:02
415 pick up, it was for 14 eastern time at the site called
21:06
the Jacksonville, Florida store. Lady picked right up.
21:09
She said oh okay yeah yeah. When he I'm going to take this
21:13
off the shelf right now, when they come in I'll I'll ask him
21:16
and then, can you give me a call back number?
21:17
So, I gave her my callback number and 15 minutes later, she
21:21
calls me back and says, yep. He came in, and I said, Hey,
21:25
listen, the account owner actually called us and said that
21:27
he didn't order this sandwich. And the guys, like it was for my
21:34
cousin. Hold on, just a second.
21:36
He walked. And ran out the door and out the
21:39
door and never came back. She said she goes, I'm 100%
21:42
certain that. Hacked your account used your
21:44
points and try to get that sub for free.
21:47
It's, you know, again, no, that's on me, that's on me with
21:49
my level 0 password, but then I turned it over to my team
21:53
internally, and within five minutes, my team had taken my
21:57
user name that I gave them and they had ran it through a few
22:02
tools, external, internal, whatever.
22:04
It might be. And I said, screen share with me
22:08
when you're done. It was five minutes later.
22:09
One of my teammates came back and said you got a minute.
22:12
I said sure. Shared a screen.
22:13
He goes, can you confirm any of these?
22:15
I said, yeah, you've got my level one password, for sure.
22:19
You've got my root of My Level 3 password.
22:22
Wow, that was quick. I'll bet all based off my email
22:27
and and know we're battling those things and so he could run
22:30
that through a tool. And he could see where that that
22:32
level 0 password was used all over the place.
22:36
I believe it was and that's ultimately the use case.
22:39
That that Fido is all about is Even somebody who has, you know,
22:45
experience and decent pastured, hygiene still, super
22:49
susceptible. Absolutely, you know, I think
22:52
one of the other themes that have come through in the
22:54
sessions, I sat there yesterday. Is that look, nobody comes to
22:59
your company for your whiz-bang authentication experience,
23:03
right? They come through for the
23:06
content to get something done. You want to manage your account,
23:09
or they want to do whatever you do.
23:12
And I talked about something else is like, so imagine you're
23:16
now calling into CVS to do something.
23:20
You get authenticated, you do it and now they want you to do a
23:24
survey, right? You're right.
23:26
And most people just hang up at that point, but you've been able
23:30
to do something that you're pretty proud of to increase the
23:36
survey rate. So you just tell us about that.
23:38
Share that little tidbit somebody out there might benefit
23:41
from it. Yeah, absolutely things.
23:42
And it's wreck when I started before.
23:45
I was in security. Actually, it was a solution that
23:47
we were. It's changing the mindset of the
23:51
the contact center representative, right?
23:54
You have all these rules that we've put in place to keep the
23:56
context under secure and keep it csat.
23:59
Score really nice and high. And we do all these things that
24:02
we think are the right thing. And I've seen, many, of example,
24:05
is sales where you have to go through your actual, you have
24:09
to, you have to use all these words or you're going to get in
24:11
trouble, you know, right? So one of the things in the
24:14
context Center was that the representative never hung up on
24:17
the consumer. So the person calling in had to
24:20
disconnect first or you got in trouble and When we
24:26
revolutionize that we said no, that's wrong, what we should be
24:30
doing is using return destination and it telephony
24:36
routing, right? And so when our agent hangs up,
24:39
we introduced, we ask them to introduce the the survey I
24:43
didn't need to ask you to beginning whether or not you
24:45
want to take a survey that made no sense whatsoever to us, you
24:49
don't know yet, you haven't had that experience.
24:51
I would, why would you, why would you render an opinion
24:54
before the experience, even And so, let me interject for a
24:56
second because I always, I've always been curious about this.
24:59
I've been through that experience, where it's like,
25:01
hey, would you be willing to take a survey after your
25:03
experience, right? And I was thinking I was like,
25:05
okay, well, if I say yes, does like the person know, and I'm
25:08
going to get better customer service because of that, I'm
25:11
going to say no to that have at least at least in the solutions
25:15
that I've implemented over the years.
25:16
No. But you know, it makes as much
25:18
sense to me is putting the the fork and the knife.
25:21
At the beginning of the buffet line, why do you want to carry
25:23
your fork and knife all the way through?
25:25
Buffett, you're not going to use it in the buffet line, right?
25:28
So you don't want to ask that question up front.
25:31
You want to ask it at the end but you don't even need to ask
25:34
it. You just present it.
25:35
So what we've done is we ask the agents.
25:37
Hey, introduced to serve a. Hey listen, thank you for your
25:40
call today. I'm going to I'm going to
25:43
disconnect and you're going to be sent on to a survey, feel
25:46
free to take the survey or not take that, you know, whatever,
25:48
whatever that introduction, winds up being but you'd be
25:51
absolutely surprised at the number of people that do take
25:53
the survey because they were Almost you're not surprising
25:56
them with it but you're presenting them with an
25:59
opportunity and it was, it was, it was, it is it far as I'm
26:03
concerned, change the game and we got a lot of surveys and we
26:06
got a lot of feedback as well. We allowed people to talk for 90
26:09
seconds after the survey was complete, and it was amazing to
26:15
us how, how much feedback we got.
26:17
And so we turned those speech to text and turn it into a word
26:20
cloud. And we can see these words pop
26:22
up and very, very, very, very Insightful.
26:25
And that you'd think that the people that do stay on the line
26:28
to give you the survey, we're going to adjust reme you and
26:30
give you negative feedback. It was overwhelmingly positive
26:35
and it was a it was very insightful, it's good.
26:37
Maybe it makes me not feel weird though.
26:39
When I always give the positive stuff at the end, like I had a
26:42
great experience yesterday with apple.
26:44
In order that I had placed, and I'm like, where's my thing?
26:47
And given the order numbers like, okay, great got it taken
26:50
care of and it was a great experience for a couple things.
26:52
One, they authenticated me through An MFA Channel.
26:57
We're all I had to do, was put Camille press confirm on my
26:59
iPhone and they knew immediately that was me which I thought.
27:02
Okay, that's really cool. Like I'm used to like okay, I
27:04
have to give you a code or answer a question, right?
27:07
Or some like that is like literally it was like I'm going
27:09
to send you a prompt. Just want to confirm that this
27:11
is, you know, Jeff pops up on my iPhone.
27:13
I hit confirm right. Great.
27:15
Thanks with move on and kind of thing and it was like, all
27:17
right. Well that's you know, here I am
27:19
at an authenticated kind of authentication conference and
27:23
that was like the best Remote Call Center contact center
27:27
authentication experience that I had experienced so far and it
27:31
was seamless. It just worked and I was happy
27:34
to provide the feedback afterwards, the hey, you know,
27:36
this couldn't have gone any better for me as I someone I
27:40
did. I already don't want to talk to
27:41
you but here we are and now the police are coming to make sure
27:45
that I didn't speak ill of apples or yet, you should be
27:48
good. John look to kind of shift, the
27:51
conversation to be kind of future facing.
27:55
And when we talked last time you made a statement, which I
27:58
thought was pretty interesting and you said voice is the way of
28:02
the future. I don't know if you remember
28:05
saying that but of you what were you thinking?
28:07
When you said that so we've done a great job on securing the
28:12
mobile in the web environment. Right.
28:13
And the more you secure that the harder it is to get through and
28:18
social engineering get get to that data.
28:20
Whatever that data winds up being the the pot of gold at the
28:24
end of the rainbow, right? The or using your face print
28:27
were using your your fingerprint, but your other bio
28:31
much as a few other Biometrics. But the next one I think is Line
28:34
to be very successful is your voice print.
28:37
If it can be implemented properly and in like we talked
28:40
earlier, you have to have that key value pair.
28:42
I have to know who you are, so that I can verify that voice and
28:48
we don't get the device information in a, in a
28:51
particular phone call, right? So when you call in, on your
28:53
phone, all I'm getting is your auntie, I don't get any of your
28:55
device characteristics, I don't know, really any, your could be
28:58
on a payphone. You could be in a work phone,
29:00
whatever. Most people are calling it on
29:02
their cell phones today. So, we have that.
29:08
The Voice pieces is the is the next thing that's going to be in
29:12
line for that authentication. So again away from face print
29:18
fingerprint and now I'm in a voice Channel.
29:21
These smart speakers that are coming on board today.
29:23
The iot, there's going to be, you have to do something.
29:27
If it's not a physical device that you can touch voice is
29:30
going to be the way you transmit that.
29:32
So you have to, again, we have to go back to that identity.
29:34
We have to be able to identify the person but then, I think you
29:38
said it best earlier, it's almost like your password, your
29:42
voice is your password and that you don't necessarily have to
29:45
say those words anymore. We it's almost a free open
29:48
speech that you just we analyze your voice would continually
29:51
analyze your voice to create that voice print.
29:54
And it's Unique. And and I think that's what
29:56
we're a thing that's really cool about that.
29:58
Just think about like, Fingerprints and face prints.
30:02
Usually, it's all kind of device Centric.
30:06
So you capture all that on your device?
30:08
Where's your voice is going back to some Central server.
30:11
So completely device agnostic, whether you're calling from a
30:14
pay phone, cell phone Hotel, phone, whatever.
30:19
That verification is happening independent of that device.
30:24
So it's definitely a different different, you know, Channel
30:29
over which Goes. And there was a great
30:31
conversation yesterday about web 3.0.
30:34
You know, a lot of people that know we were on web 3.0 yet, you
30:38
know, we've been through Web Web 2.0, which here's a website,
30:42
check it out. Oh, great, I can read anything.
30:44
I want on what, you know, check out my MySpace account, check
30:47
out whatever, right. And then we moved into the Web
30:50
2.0 with the social apps and the ability to interact.
30:54
And really that's when the data collection really started
30:57
happening, but we lost track of our identity.
30:59
We don't Own our identity, Facebook owns, my identity.
31:03
Google owns my identity, they own my identity and its really
31:08
taken out of my hands now and and they manage my identity.
31:12
Then they get breached in my identities out there.
31:14
That wasn't me, I didn't do that.
31:16
I didn't put my level zero password out there on purpose
31:19
that was in a data breach somewhere that somebody then
31:22
used some tools to start leveraging these data breaches
31:25
and she appoint web 3.0. I feel like voice is going to be
31:29
part of the 3.0 experience where we're going to come back, we're
31:33
going to own our identity. We're going to own that we're
31:36
going to have that digital wallet.
31:37
We're going to have that blockchain experience.
31:39
We're going to have the ability to really put the identity at
31:43
the Forefront and then put voice behind it to your point.
31:47
Does it have to be on a specific phone?
31:49
I can use my friend's phone now and and put in my Identity or
31:54
whatever. That identity piece becomes, the
31:56
voice becomes that password behind the scenes and I think
31:59
it's going to be powerful. Especially in the smart speaker
32:01
Arena and the, in the iot, my wife, and I take heavy advantage
32:06
of Google smart speakers around the house.
32:08
And it's amazing how, you know, accurate is and picking out
32:11
who's telling it to do what, and when it knows the difference
32:15
between Jeff, asking the turn the lights on in the office or,
32:19
you know, my wife saying, you know, set a timer for something
32:21
right. Whatever it might be.
32:22
I think it's interesting that they've been able to advance the
32:26
the Fidelity of being able to To make that determination on just
32:32
this cheap little device that just sits in the corner of the
32:35
room. It's always listening, which is
32:37
always a concern. But it's doing a good job.
32:40
And I think that goes back to what my previous statement
32:42
because you know, you're always sacrificing something in the
32:44
name of convenience or usability or whatever.
32:47
Maybe that's a choice that you know my wife and I have made
32:51
mostly for my wife to be honest and say, hey this is how we turn
32:54
on the lights right in this area, right?
32:56
Or, you know, I can walk into my office and morning and say, hey
32:59
so and so I won't I'll trigger it here but you know, turn on
33:02
the office and I have Smart lights to turn on.
33:04
I have a TV that turns on a monitor behind me and, you know,
33:07
stuff like that and it's, it's cool.
33:09
It feels a little bit like Star Trek or something, some degree,
33:12
but I think that's, that's where I totally believe in the power
33:16
of the voice. The one thing I don't want to
33:18
lose sight of the oars, for the people who can't take advantage
33:20
of that technology. There needs to be a alternative
33:24
that is, you know, just as good. So if you, for whatever reason,
33:27
can't speak, whatever it might be, you know, whatever the
33:29
situation might be. That there still needs to be a
33:32
path that we're not leaving people behind on that too.
33:35
Absolutely. And you make a great point that
33:38
trust, you've put your trust into sounds like Google.
33:41
And so you allowed those Google smart speakers to come in.
33:44
And now you're trusting them and it's it's difficult for us in a
33:49
in a heavily regulated environment.
33:53
We right hip. You've got PCI, you've got a lot
33:55
of different laws and regulations.
33:58
I don't know that we can necessarily Trust to that level
34:02
yet. We have to get there and there
34:05
has to be some efforts really from a lot of different
34:08
organizations and Leadership that allow us to use that
34:12
person's voice because I can't give you PCI Data.
34:15
Based on just the fact that it's your voice, I really have to
34:18
authenticate you and understand that it is you so that and you
34:22
are authorized at that point, right?
34:24
So again, identity authentication, and then
34:27
authorization, just because it's your wife on this.
34:30
Speaker, does she is she allowed to know a certain piece of
34:34
information, right? And we have a lot of that in the
34:38
health care Arena, where once a child turns 18, you know, you
34:42
were able to talk about them last week and this week.
34:45
So a lot of regulations that really drive.
34:48
A lot of these solutions that we have just had to be very careful
34:50
but they have that trust is I think trust is the key and and
34:54
voice is going to unlock a lot of that for us in the future.
34:57
I'm pretty sure we could pick John's brain for the next hour.
35:00
Or two. But at some point, we've got to
35:03
kind of shift into the. He probably wants to actually go
35:05
to the conference and actually, like, listen to the smart people
35:07
talk, so we should find let him go.
35:08
I don't know, I don't know. We're kind of fun, right, fun?
35:12
Yes, intelligent is totally separate discussion.
35:16
Let's talk a, let's start to wrap things up here though, but
35:18
we were talking before we hit the record button and you were
35:22
sharing some pictures of Robotics things that that you do
35:26
on the side, right? Can you tell us about sort of
35:29
this very A cool robot thing that you do.
35:33
I want to like, steal your thunder.
35:34
So that's like a no worries. I appreciate that.
35:36
So, but no one about six years now, it's a a, i coach at the
35:41
junior, high level Vex robotics. So, Vex is a worldwide program,
35:47
they change the game every year, and this year's games called
35:50
spin up. It's basically frisbee golf and
35:54
I go in on Tuesdays and Thursdays to the junior high
35:58
right by my house. And I, Teach kids the ways of
36:03
the engineer, if you will. So we've got an engineering
36:05
notebook that they're supposed to be documenting.
36:09
They build the robot, they program, the robot and robotc,
36:13
and then they also program the controller.
36:17
I mean, it's a Xbox controller, but it's it might as well be a
36:21
brick until you start program again.
36:23
So they get, they get to robots to do amazing things.
36:26
And it's just unbelievable to me, the seventh and eighth
36:29
graders. Once I get the parents out of
36:32
the way to allow the kids to just be themselves and that,
36:37
that I feel like, I'm just like, a, an old friend for them.
36:41
I go into that room and let them do their thing.
36:44
And it's amazing to me what these kids can do the parents,
36:49
every year, every year, the end of the year.
36:51
Wow, I didn't know they can do that.
36:54
And if you let the kids do what they just naturally do, it's
36:57
absolutely amazing. And I've got a very A very
37:00
successful program very proud of obviously and we've got a lot of
37:04
really good. Great kids in the area and went
37:08
to the I took three out of four of the teams in my program to
37:11
the World Championships last year.
37:12
And I know we're headed back there.
37:14
I tell them every year, I said we're going back to the World
37:16
Championships who's going with me.
37:18
So that's pretty cool. I hate is this I've always been
37:22
like a Lego person at heart and I feel like this is like the
37:24
next stage of that. How does how does someone get
37:27
involved without have a child? It sounds It might be expensive.
37:31
Do I get where do I get the parts?
37:33
Like what is the barrier for to get more people involved with
37:37
us? That's really insightful.
37:39
And it is expensive sport. It's actually recognized in the
37:43
state of Arizona. Now as a sport you can letter
37:46
and Robotics now but it is expensive and we the school
37:52
district has been very very helpful and really good at
37:56
finding us. They bought the robotics kits.
37:58
A few years ago we just enhance the Every year of X is a pretty
38:01
standardized program where the parts are the same every year.
38:05
So you have access to parts. And there's a lot Tronics that,
38:08
sometimes I'll change the electron, you might get a bumper
38:10
switch, or a limit switch or different things.
38:13
But we buy these, we buy these parts and year to year, they're
38:17
good. It's been pretty consistent with
38:19
that. Would take all the V5 over the
38:20
last few years, and we just enhance that every year, but we
38:25
charge just like you would a sport.
38:27
If you're going to go play football, you going to probably
38:28
pay 75 bucks. 80 bucks. 100 bucks to play football and
38:32
Eagles. Pay for baseball in the spring.
38:35
So same thing where we run it. Like a sport.
38:38
It's a club and then I work for sponsorship.
38:41
So we actually have sponsors at the school district level that
38:45
will contribute money and they'll help us from that
38:47
perspective. But to get involved, it's just a
38:50
club and it's word of mouth and it's actually, I called a geek
38:54
tryouts. The first time, I'd 47 kids, try
38:57
out and I had to actually pair it down.
39:00
And I didn't know what the perfect team size was when I got
39:02
started, but for seemed to be a real good team.
39:05
So we have about 16 kids, it's competitive.
39:07
You try to get into the club and so now I think we've generated
39:11
enough buzz and we've been to the World Championships.
39:13
Now, the last well, we've been eligible for the world champion.
39:16
Nobody got to go anywhere in 2020.
39:19
It was virtual in 2021. So this year was the first year
39:22
we've actually been able to physically, go to Dallas.
39:25
And yeah, we've got enough Buzz. Now that the kids are really
39:28
interested in it and Just it's a program that they want to be
39:32
part of. Wow, that's pretty cool.
39:35
So I don't want to like take up too much more time.
39:37
We got one more question about this is so you mentioned sort of
39:40
like the kits and this year I think you said the theme was
39:44
spin up is the idea that you've bet you have these kits and
39:48
every year there's different theme but it's for the most part
39:51
sort of taking what you've already got, maybe with a couple
39:53
of random new bits, you know, I keep going back to the Lego,
39:56
right? But I have like this.
39:57
I think of the my child. I have like this.
40:00
Giant gray like toolbox. Phil just a whole bunch of Lego
40:04
pieces in it and, you know, we would just come up with weird
40:07
random stuff off of that is this is the concept the same almost
40:11
exactly. With the exception of I don't
40:14
think you've probably ever cut a leg.
40:15
Oh no I got so we have a there's metal, there's aluminum, see
40:20
channels or different, different size pieces and and sometimes
40:23
they'll come in standard lengths, like a 15 or a 25 or 35
40:28
and 35 dots. All it is is 17 and a half
40:31
inches and your robot can only be 18 by 18, typically and can
40:35
expand some years there let you expand past that.
40:38
But no, you, you might need a 4, right?
40:41
And so you cut that. So that said by about the only
40:44
difference really is that it is a standard box of stuff and we
40:48
start from scratch. Every year, you put wheels and
40:51
you make a chassis and you build whatever that game is and this
40:53
year, we pick up discs and we throw them like a frisbee.
40:57
Interesting. And when it does, I wonder if
40:59
this feeds back into like some master, robot databases, if I
41:03
got we've tackled picking up this, what's next?
41:05
What's next? Right, we need to, I don't know,
41:07
let's figure something else out and that's one outsourced,
41:10
that's one of our most anticipated events of the year.
41:12
It happens at the World Championships every year on
41:14
Thursday night, they announced next year's game and you want to
41:17
talk about. There's people all over the
41:20
world just tuned into that live broadcast.
41:23
I had for, I one team that didn't go this last year for the
41:27
five. Kids texted me on Friday said,
41:29
will you be in the, in the classroom on Tuesday?
41:32
I said, yes, I will. Can we come in?
41:34
I said, no, three out of four of them showed up anyways, because
41:38
because it just know me that I think I'm gonna let him in.
41:42
That's really cool. It reminds me of BattleBots.
41:45
Oh, yeah, no legs. You seen that show.
41:48
But I think what's really great about a John.
41:52
I just want to recognize this is like you're donating so much of
41:55
your time, two kids. That aren't even your own kids,
41:58
right? Right.
41:59
Just and I think that's really cool.
42:01
I mean, that's it, you know, hats off to you.
42:05
And it also gave me the idea that I've got a son, who's a
42:08
freshman in high school, I'm gonna have them, you know,
42:10
investigate whether or not that's available in his school.
42:14
I bet you. There's a good chance it is.
42:18
Yes. And for anybody out there, who's
42:20
a parent who has kid, that's that age, or coming up to that
42:24
age, you know, be something they could look into.
42:29
Anyway, as we're talking about this, this whole robot thing.
42:32
So here's our lighter note, like, we love to end on a
42:35
lighter note and it kind of got me thinking about robots that
42:40
are being built commercially. Like, you know, Elon musk's had
42:45
a unveiling of a robot that I think Tesla is building or one
42:49
of his companies building. And it also got me thinking
42:52
about Star Wars and Star Trek, and you would ask me if I was
42:56
Star Wars start. I said, I'm more on the Star
42:59
Trek Star Trek side, Jeff is probably more on the Star Wars
43:03
Side based on conversations we've had, but I think they both
43:07
had a different direction for would robots, would be in the
43:12
far distant future. So in the Star Wars side, I
43:16
think R2D2 and C3PO. In other words, you know, there
43:20
were about, you look at them, they're robots, the Star Trek
43:23
side had data. So it was more like the
43:26
humanoid, I'd meant to be that you couldn't tell the difference
43:30
between a synthetic life form and a human life form.
43:34
And really the goal was to try to get to the point where you
43:37
couldn't tell the difference. And so that the letter, no
43:41
question for all three of us will be, which way do you see
43:47
actual human Direction going in the far distant?
43:49
Future, is it to build robots to be indistinguishable from
43:54
humans? Or is it to make them very Both
43:57
from humans. That's a great question.
44:01
And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I have no idea where
44:04
we're headed, but I would think, would lean towards more of those
44:06
Star Trek side where they're going to look more like humans.
44:10
Maybe not identical. You should be able to tell the
44:12
difference, you know, in real life even like was a Boston
44:16
Dynamics and they have that dog that walked, you know, the
44:18
trying to make that walk like a dog and act like a dog.
44:22
And I think that's where we're headed.
44:23
I think that the will be more human-like in.
44:27
Maybe probably have a servant in our home and go back to George
44:30
Jetson. Those days won't mind Rosie
44:33
Rosie. Yeah, something like that.
44:36
But looking more like Star Trek and more human-like.
44:41
More humanoid. What do you think?
44:43
Jeff, you know, I thought the answer is going to be easy for
44:46
me and I'm going to cheat and say both because I'm going to
44:50
take the risk based cost based version of this.
44:55
I think we're going to have at the highwomen.
44:57
And robots that are virtually indistinguishable from a human
45:02
basically data from Star Trek and you're going to have purpose
45:06
built robots that nobody cares what it looks like.
45:10
It's, you know, it's in warehouses today.
45:13
They move boxes back and forth on these little loader
45:16
platforms, right? It doesn't look like a robot.
45:18
It is a robot but doesn't look like, you know, it doesn't have
45:21
arms and legs and head right MBA.
45:24
Yeah, Rumba. Yeah, exactly.
45:25
Like it's, you know, it's a purpose-built.
45:27
Nothing. And so I think it's I think that
45:30
would just be this trend, it will be.
45:31
If if you don't care what it looks like, it'll look like a
45:34
thing that does a thing Rumba if you do care.
45:37
And if you're not trying to replicate a human experience
45:41
caregiving, you know, medical education, maybe or even just
45:46
companionship, those types of things.
45:47
Then the interface and the visual appeal of the robot
45:51
itself, takes a much higher precedence over the
45:55
functionality. It's a great Point.
45:56
Yeah, I like that answer. Are you know what?
45:59
I was kind of thinking is that one branch for robotics is going
46:02
to Branch into the medical side. So someone loses a hand, how can
46:09
we replace the hand with a robotic hand and of course,
46:13
you're going to want that to look as much like a human as
46:15
possible. I don't know, man, we're gonna
46:17
take like a nice giant claw, like a USB port.
46:21
Something I can plug my phone into keep it charged.
46:25
Yeah. So maybe you Would but I think
46:28
that most people would like like those like an actual.
46:30
And anyway, I think there's also something that'll happen which
46:35
is the the the use of organic cells as the understanding of
46:46
organic cells in the ability to send chemical signals to them.
46:50
We'll cross a point of knowledge that you can actually build
46:55
something organically. A robot because I think to get
47:01
to kind of the data 2.0 which if you seen Star Trek the card,
47:07
it's like the next generation of synthetics and they are
47:11
indistinguishable from humans. I feel like the only way you can
47:14
get there. As if like you have real skin
47:17
real blood, real hair and so she could get there.
47:22
That should be deep. Yeah.
47:24
Yeah. I guess I'm like kind of deep
47:26
but so high. I kind of think that that would
47:29
be the direction because even though I do agree with you if
47:32
like you're going to have robotic devices for doing tasks.
47:38
But I think when you start talking about like, AI robots,
47:43
you know, it's going to go down the medical route and then
47:46
eventually be indistinguishable from humans because I think
47:50
people are essentially wants to live forever.
47:55
Just like that, I'll take care of and I don't think people want
47:58
to reach their demise because they have some disease or
48:02
something like that. They'd want to have it repaired.
48:05
See now we're getting into like the ship of, was it ship of
48:09
Theseus? Like with you start removing all
48:12
the parts from something and you reassemble it is it still the
48:15
same ship. Well way to end on a lighter
48:19
note. Yeah, in that show the card to
48:21
mean. Jean-Luc Picard has like some
48:24
kind of Of brain disease and then in the end, they replace
48:28
his brain with a synthetic brain.
48:32
But rewired all the chemicals that essentially just didn't
48:36
even realize that he had a new synthetic brain.
48:40
Is that possible on a remote? But I mean Star Trek it is.
48:44
Everything is possible. The TV show, right?
48:48
All right. Well with that, I don't know
48:50
where to go with that gym but thank you for that uplifting
48:54
view on. Unity in the future.
48:56
We'll go and wrap it up for this episode.
48:58
John, thank you so much for joining us.
49:00
Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to the
49:02
conversation. Can continually to move forward
49:04
here. Hopefully enjoy the conference
49:06
again. Shout out to Andrew and Adrienne
49:08
and all the folks here at Fido who are hosting us.
49:11
We'll go ahead and leave it here for this week.
49:13
You can check us out on the web identity of the center.com.
49:15
We're on Twitter and IDC podcast.
49:18
And with that, thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk
49:20
with everyone in the next one. Thanks for listening to the
49:26
identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard,
49:29
don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity
49:32
at the center.com.